Rings of Power: Season 2, Episode 3 Analysis and Reaction | Rings & Realms

[@gladiolus2989]

"Sauron's poor market research on the drawf segment of his Rings of Power customer base..." was one of the best written sentences I heard in a long time. 😂

[@viviennewalsh4513]

Truly, truly the perspective Corey and Maggie give enhances each episode magnificently. Its like watching a parallel series.

[@hipser]

I have to say, it's amazing how much lore is hiding in RoP. You're making the show more meaningful for me. Enablers.

[@mithlenfinlass2040]

I feel so privileged every time I watch R&R analysis…wiser, more articulated, full of knowledge and last but not least objective and open minded! I love&know Tolkiens world since 26 years, I got plenty special editions of his books and I am so grateful about this channel! Just pure knowledge and passion without hate! ❤

[@NickCorbinOfficial]

I love this so much. This is my companion series to the official show.

[@blackeyedlily]

Definitely! I wish there was a way to tell all viewers of the Rings of Power how much Rings and Realms would add to their enjoyment of the series.🔥

[@Zimisacartoon]

Dude come on..stop it. Just stop telling lies

[@Meilock]

​@@Zimisacartoon Go away

[@Zimisacartoon]

@@Meilock please tell me were to go. Please..i could swim away..i could swim away for you..i could swim 1000 miles halfway across middle earth..is that were you want me to go? Just let me know

[@Auxius.]

@@Meilock Just imagine how much he'd love reading the actual books

[@StephanieLambert-y8x]

"I don't remember the taste of strawberries." I love these guys.

[@SaithMasu12]

Man, the amount of thoughts that went into these productions is just astounding. Very well done guys!

[@Flash4ML]

And this is the third episode in 6 days! Craziness

[@Paul_Caruana]

Just wanted to say I really appreciate your very balanced analysis and critique of the rings of power. A big difference (for the better) from all the other idiots out there who seem more interested in using this or that show to push their own political/personal views on the rest of us.

[@hawkname1234]

Agreed. What a breath of fresh air.

[@joniseith2227]

"It's all fun and games until the Palantir hits the steps." That cracked me up! I'm so going to use this quote rather than the original.

[@RangerHouston]

Man y’all are pumping these things out! Love it!!! The entire team behind these bows to no one! 💙💙

[@miscellaniac3367]

Orc family doesn't bug me. In order for a population to survive, offspring needs to be tended. Let's also remember that Gorbag and Shagrat wanted to retire on the sea of Nurn in ROTK.

[@shaomike]

It humanizes them and forces a sympathetic reaction. They're things of evil and corruption. Maybe after Morgoth and Sauron have been dead for thousands of years, they might be redeemable. And you don't need for a population growth. The orc women could be strung up in caves to just breed all the time.

[@cometaryfairy]

"going through a rebranding process" made me cackle

[@SoundsOfTheWildYT]

I wish there were more legitimate analyses out there rather than the seemingly infinite list of people who decided they hated the show before it aired and are picking holes where there arent problems for controversy-driven views. I'm so grateful that we at least have this one

[@NicoleStevensHays11x]

Haters gonna hate. Lol. Imagine deciding you hate a show and then continuing to watch it until the season ends…coming back 2 years later … watching another now 6 episodes. Those ppl need to go back to college or go get a career and life. Their behavior makes it clear that they’re losers, and those losers are not worth our time lol

[@Bllll957]

​@@NicoleStevensHays11xikr it's such a weird concept to me. If something angers me, or bores me I sure won't dedicate like 3 years of my life to it 😅

[@afatamanai4455]

Nerd of the Rings is a bit saltier, but he also gives some good analysis

[@adamreinhardt9135]

Excellent video as usual. One point. When Isildur “dies” in S1, you see the burning building he’s in collapse, but not just onto the ground but rather into it, into a sinkhole created by the tunnels underground. Probably into water, as those tunnels were flooded, explaining why he didn’t burn to death. From there he probably floated to the underground chamber where the spiders found and captured him. Cheers!

[@noahunsworth1290]

That has always been my thought as well. I was expecting a exciting scene of him collapsing into the orc tunnel and getting washed away by the water but it looks like the showrunners spent the production budget on the spider fight instead. :)

[@Auxius.]

aaaa.. would've been great to see how he ended up there. And what about Bronwyn? was there also some hidden cue to her dying?

[@adamreinhardt9135]

@@Auxius. unfortunately, Bronwyn’s death was due to the actress leaving the show to fight for women’s rights in Iran. A badass on screen and off. It is interesting to me that they killed her off instead of recasting her like they did with Adar. I wonder what kind of rewrites to the story her departure necessitated

[@noahunsworth1290]

@@Auxius. Arondir mentioned the foulness of the orc arrow was probably the cause in the episode. The Orcs were known to shoot poisoned arrows in Tolkien's lore. Even though Browyn survived the wound, the poison or infection killed her.

[@rumpelstilzchen2796]

I have missed these videos so much. At 66 I get to audit classes with Corey and Maggie :)

[@BradyAmerson]

These episodes have given a new meaning to Corey’s sign-off, “Godspeed!” Thank you so much for creating these, and getting them all out so we can see them before episode 4 drops. I enjoy the show, but enjoying analyzing everything afterwards even more. After watching others on KZbin, it is refreshing to actually engage with the content instead of just bashing every detail that people don’t know enough to understand.

[@kyzf]

What's this about deities relieving themselves?

[@tavinneainriathan5369]

Something I was hoping would get mentioned: Halbrand/Annatar breaking the 4th wall. He has done it a few times so far, namely when swearing allegiance to the "Lord of Mordor" at Adar's feet and just after putting the mithril in the forge. At two very significant moments, he looks straight at us, essentially including us in the scene and making us complicit, accomplices to his misdeeds. On top of this, his smirk shows us that he knows we know who he is and what he's doing... and we're powerless to stop him. I love this! I think it's such a great addition.

[@JasonDarlaVanderford]

Great observation! I felt something happening in those instances, but I didn't know I was being pulled in by Sauron himself- smh, that guy is good!

[@Auxius.]

I rolled my eyes so far backwards, they popped back up the other way. Has this person considered they did this perhaps for someone who doesn't understand he's hatching evil plans?

[@jj48]

​@@Auxius.Oh, please. Not even the haters are thick enough to misunderstand his intentions, assuming they bothered actually watching before commenting in the first place.

[@kyzf]

That's a specific kind of 4th wall break where the "camera" is representative of the character himself, looking inward. He's basically smirking at himself, as if to say, "Oh Sauron, you cheeky bugger you." It's not unlike the famous Gollum/Smeagol scene in The Two Towers.

[@tavinneainriathan5369]

@@kyzf Ah that's fun as well! In combining both of our interpretations, I love how it makes me feel about the character-- I hate him and his evil deeds all the more for his audacity in thinking I could be a willing participant. He thinks he's so unstoppably smart...at his own peril.

[@qcrew2938]

I love this show.... I don't care what the internet says I am enjoying every second of it!

[@frybabyofficial]

I remember asking my dad as a child while watching a super hero movie if the "bad" guys think the "good" guys are bad guys. Ever since then I have searched for the sympathetic villain out of fascination. It's no wonder I always felt some sort of sad sympathy for the orcs. I love their decision to show a little orc family. They were created out of spite, they live in constant demonization, it's no wonder they are who they are. But they have community still in each other and I like seeing that played out here. I am glad Christopher chose to add it to the silmarillion.

[@attornyobanderas]

Thank you so much for making these videos! They are a breath of fresh air in the midst of all the noxious hate this series receives online

[@TheDanEdwards]

From comments I have seen others make, it appears many do not realize that Pharazon *hijacked the omen* , something that seems quite at home in literature tropes.

[@bradhuston7788]

I didn't understand it, though I knew the eagle could not have been backing Pharazon, whatever one character said. Dr. Olsen clarified this beautifully and more fully than I would have asked for, per usual.

[@Blarpy110]

I understood it but the execution was just bad. I’m left to believe that the numenorens are complete dolts.

[@kyzf]

​@@Blarpy110That's not too far off from how they were described in this era. A large portion of them are little more than a mob under Pharazon's sway at this point, and were already looking for any reason to reject Miriel.

[@cgg7]

If only the Eagle said something - why did Manwe send the one Great Eagle that is mute? You can explain it post hoc it as some kind of test, but the scene just teased an intervention of the Eagle and left me disappointed. @kyzf It wasn't really set up that way, in my view. It was framed like Pharazon pulling a genius move out of his hat that actually swayed people, when it really felt like it was obvious that the Eagle came for Miriel's coronation. There's always some justification you can find afterwards, but it doesn't excuse the actual show unless it was set up and/or explained afterwards.

[@lberghaus]

@@Blarpy110people see what they want to believe. They don’t like Miriel. They choose the alternative interpretation that suits their bias.

[@HomoSolari]

Three episodes for the Elven-kings under the sky…

[@torrent6181]

It’s really cool to have watched later episodes and see how your speculations have turned out to be right.

[@hopewilliard6781]

Am I going to write a comment saying thank you to everyone involved in Rings and Realms on every one of these videos? Probably! That was so much fun to watch. I can’t wait to hear more thoughts on Damrod and many of the other matters discussed here.

[@NicoleStevensHays11x]

This channel is EXACTLY what I was looking for. Woohoo!!!

[@Arabong168]

That intro alone is Emmy worthy, I thought I was going crazy for a moment

[@Auxius.]

You think that intro was in any way a normal intro for a youtube account with 15K subs that got created conveniently when the show started airing? They are desperately polishing this turd.

[@muklowd]

"Wait till your children grow up" has got to be the funniest thing yet said in the show. That whole scene with the Durins was amazing and that remark made me LOL.

[@jj48]

I love how the Dwarves in this series get to have provide a lot of humor and charm without always being the comic relief.

[@Fairstarter]

I love tiny orc family. I hope the best for them

[@Auxius.]

I'd also love to see how they fall in love, how they do it, give birth and want to know where they take a sh as well now we're getting intimate with the details. Truly remarkable.

[@kyzf]

They're a nasty, brutal culture of bootlickers. Even if you believe redemption is still possible for them, they're not interested in it.

[@okitasan]

Whenever Corey says “now”, take a drink 😛

[@PhilBoswell]

When Celebrimbor handed the mithril to Annatar, I thought the latter might be actually switching it for something else: he does something sneaky with his hands so you can't see the lump of metal while he carries it to the crucible 🤔

[@Flash4ML]

Personally I thought it was just to indicate some shady imbuement of power, but *maybe* there was some sleight of hand going on there, idk

[@kyzf]

Sleight of hand is a good term for it, because he is doing the Maia equivalent of close-up magic here, sneaking his own will to dominate into the batch. Because of the visual nature of the adaptation, I can imagine it being depicted as a black energy emerging from his hand and pouring into the piece of metal, which he drops into the mix. In essence, he's sneaking something metaphysical into the material composition and hiding it from Celebrimbor's sight.

[@hawkname1234]

Thank you guys for doing this. Please don't listen to the haters. Don't even read their mindless trolling.

[@fitzgeraldfilmsMN]

“It’s all in Aquinas.” I love it

[@clelierich3736]

If what Corey says about the Stranger and the Dark Wizard representing the Blue Wizards' story AND being Gandalf and The Witch King, that gives a whole greater tweak to their encounter in RotK.

[@hipser]

timecode?

[@domino8690]

Nice Aquinas mention! Also I love the little poem in the video description :)

[@scottwise5297]

I didn't pick up on the origins of Damrod's ballad. It Is interesting where they find inspiration for so much

[@blackeyedlily]

I had just listened to Sam’s song from the Andy Serkis version of the Fellowship audiobook yesterday and picked up on the similarity to the lyrics in the Ballad of Damrod. I would absolutely love to listen to Cory discuss this in more depth!

[@BillyFrench]

Thanks for doing these!

[@_Scrazy_]

the intro broke me for about 10mins

[@PacificEgg]

Im really enjoying S2! Better than S1 for sure. I really hope the Stranger ends up being a Blue Wizard, Ive been saying it since s1 when he first appeared.

[@mikekersten7692]

I’m starting to wonder if the Three Elven Rings we are seeing now are going to be destroyed and replaced with untainted Elven Rings - the last to be made and untouched by Sauron. Perhaps these are among the “mere essays in the craft”.

[@davidbeer5015]

I really like that interpretation of the Eagle’s silence. On the production/adaptation side of it though (across all the live action adaptations of Tolkien work), is it possible that the Eagles’ speaking is nonexistent in order to avoid trying to figure out just *how* one would speak with the way beaks are? I could see them using their own language that fits, but for speaking languages like English for the viewer, perhaps it’s too difficult?

[@daviddrinn9137]

Just have them talk like a parrot, I guess? Just with a less birdy tone.

[@davidbeer5015]

@daviddrinn9137 Is it bad that I forgot about parrots today 😂😅 I guess on a theoretical level, that could work.

[@jass9571]

Parrots and ravens etc talk human words with a beak no issues

[@kyzf]

I like the idea that the Eagles do speak, but these Númenorians have gone so far astray that they have forgotten how to understand them.

[@Dan-B]

I think they may have missed something here: I don’t think that Eärien’s steadfastness is completely strange. We know that she found the Palantír in season one, and I’m willing to bet my pipe weed on her on having used it (either having visions that she isn’t adept enough to fully understand, or Sauron has deceived her through it.

[@Flash4ML]

@@Dan-B Sauron doesn’t have one yet, so afaik there is no malevolent force at work with the Palantir. Of course, her reaction to what she’s seen could obviously be bad, and I am also inclined to believe that the seeing stone is behind her odd determination. Hopefully that gets explored further though, because it’s still unclear to me why she is suddenly so anti-Miriel

[@noahunsworth1290]

@@Flash4ML It is not completely sudden, they showed her being upset by Muriel's expedition in Season 1 and also hanging out several times with Kemen and Pharazon which shows a gradual indocturation.

[@Flash4ML]

@@noahunsworth1290 oh okay, fair enough. I have to be honest, I forgot about those scenes until now, but yes I remember this being a gradual part of her character arc. Still feels a bit extreme all of a sudden, but I’ll have to watch back her Season 1 scenes and see how her development tracks into this season. Cheers mate!

[@kyzf]

I understand why they simplified the Palantíri so that there is only one of them here, but I wish they had stayed true to the text and depicted them as numerous in Númenor. Imagine the angry mob gathering up all the "cursed elf stones" and hurling them into the sea. The Faithful save a few of them and use them to coordinate with one another to preserve what they can of the culture by smuggling it out of Númenor before its downfall.

[@Dan-B]

@@kyzf Míriel is one person, in one location, using one Palantír, for one reason; She’s doesn’t really need a buffet Palantírs. Its’s also the only one that she owns/has access to. Given we haven’t seen other parts of Númenor yet, we could likely see more of them.

[@nullunit]

Excellent as always. I really wish the purists and haters who seem to have an unreasonable dislike for this show would at least watch Corey and Maggie break them down. So many good insights. As fan who isn't much into the Jackson series outside of their aesthetic depiction of Middle Earth, I love getting more context. I have only ready the main books and SIlmarillion so having folks who know all the nooks and crannies of Tolkien lore intensifies my enjoyment of every episode. The reality is that we will not get more real Tolkien, so I am always excited to see new takes built off of his works. My only direct comment to the haters is for them to go write their own stories, do the work of getting into the industry and then to make their own attempts at adaption. I think they will see the grim realities of TV/film production are as labyrinthine as the mind of Sauron. Also, if you are a gamer and fan of Tolkien I highly recommend checking out Middle Earth: Return to Moria, they managed some great stories growth in that game for the Dwarves. Moria is oppressive and scary alone but fun and exciting if you can get a couple of people to join you in your adventure.

[@Auxius.]

I've worked in film and games. There's indeed some grim realities to it, but it definitely doesn't help when people try and inject their political views into the product. I also think it's not unreasonable at all, as the books grew in popularity and inspired so many other writers/products. LOTR is the grandfather of fantasy, as it's one of the first aimed at adults. It's popularity is directly linked with what's created (and if you deviate or hurt that, people will start to push back). It's a house of cards and if you pull at the cards the whole thing unravels. The suspense of disbelief, what the people who love it crave, is gone. Like Wheel of time, a story that has 20.000 pages of source material of which they used only names and some references of places/races. The TV show made error after error and then later they need to do damage control as they did not foresee problems with the narrative that they decided to change. I have to admit that there were passionate people that worked on RoP, however, the heart of the project, the writing team and showrunners were either incompetent, not genuine or thought they could do better. The lines, characters, timelines, moral choices- everything is lacking. We need smarter people at the helm, so everyone gets that escape they need, what entertainment is all about.

[@jj48]

​@@Auxius. From what I've seen, the writers and showrunners actually have quite a good understanding of Tolkien. They may not have always made the choices I would have preferred, but their choices don't seem to be arbitrary or due to not understanding the original.

[@mac5325]

Miriel has an almost Byzantine look, was that a conscious choice since there were ruling emppresses in the Eastern empire?

[@Flash4ML]

Yeah I love the Roman/Byzantine vibes of Numenor

[@noahunsworth1290]

If you listen to the History of Byzantium Podcast, you will start to spot all the ideas from that Eastern Roman Empire that Tolkien incorporated into his lore. Including the Gondorian Beacons that played the same role in the Byzantine Empire, warning the emperors in Constantinople of Arab invasions of their Eastern Borders.

[@Auxius.]

Apart from the fact that byzantines weren't black, or are you one of those people that also think Cleopatra/Anne Boleyn were black?

[@dutchkel]

I don't think they were talking skin color... ​@@Auxius.

[@dutchkel]

Seems mycenean to me as well

[@jenniferreece4820]

Thank you so much for these commentaries. Of course, Corey is his usual amazingly brilliant and insightful self, able to find and explicate the links between the tv series and Tolkien's incomparable written works (Hi Corey!); but equally satisfying in this series is the information shared by Dr. Maggie. I am learning so much from her about how to interpret visual media -- it will enhance not only my viewing of this tv series but everything else I watch. Well done!

[@lauragarrett7387]

Thank you!!! You and the PPP wrap up are the best!

[@motionpictures555]

When Sauron took the mithril it looked like he was employing sleight of hand (passing it from his left to right). I thought that was cool … even if he didn’t actually add anything it represents what he’s doing with Cerebrimbor / the Dwarves…

[@JosephDavies]

It looked like sleight of hand to me, too. He palms it, transfers it to the other hand, and then drops it in; the camera very deliberately shows us that we lose sight of it. For all we know, it's not even the same chunk of mithril (or mithril at all).

[@marjoe32]

38:34 The fall of Celebrimbor or the RISE of Annatar

[@develhuntr75]

you guys are cranking these out, love it

[@Auxius.]

For 15K subs no less. It's almost if they are not paid by us.

[@elvencaspersdatter458]

Oh wow it's up! Good work team!

[@whoisgoobafish9623]

We need to see the home of the faithful to establish them as a group of people, ideally they should have done this when Galadriel arrived, she could have been taken to adunie first by Elendil and we establish him as lord there first and we see the difference between adunie and the capital which is more ornate etc but hopefully we get to see it in s2

[@dakotaross4313]

"It's all in Aquinas" 😂😂 52:52

[@Tobascodagama]

"It's all in Aquinas." 😆

[@TheAtlasNoir]

Perfect timing! I just finished this episode

[@jennifermorris3856]

You did it and the result was delightful. Although, now I need you to add large maps of Middle-earth to merch!

[@Hawkeye729]

A fun detail I noticed at the end of the episode is that when Annatar dropped the mithril into the forge and it started mixing, the sound of the eye of Sauron from the movies can be heard.

[@AnnaN-rn7ox]

I think Isildur fell down into the orc tunnel and that's where Shelob found him and dragged him to her lair

[@statone2647]

Your show is soooo good! Thank you for explaining this movie to us.

[@UHollis]

i need more of the speaking and speaking time breakdowns

[@nickpalazzo6585]

I don't know about the eagle thing. If we get an actual talking Eagle at some point, I'll be thrilled. But I have a feeling that Manwë's messengers cannot speak here."

[@Flash4ML]

Can't or won't, either way. I liked Corey's perspective of it being something of a test by the Valar

[@johnw1743]

I agree. Jackson also never attempted to give us speaking eagles. Visually it just doesn't work.

[@kyzf]

​@@johnw1743Perhaps the Eagles don't speak the common tongue, but their own pseudo-psychical language that only those willing to listen can hear.

[@nickpalazzo6585]

@@johnw1743 I've heard that said before, but I trust animators to do their job. Plenty of talking birds have been done at this point.

[@compactreview]

Watching all 3 analysis videos is such a joy. Thank you! :)

[@sharbean]

Another great intro. Creepy, but cool.

[@morrgash]

I appreciate the depiction of Orcs in ROP because I have always thought that they were complicated beings with agency like any other race in middle earth not just dumb brutes.

[@Auxius.]

Yeah, they should also show how they flirt, fall in love, have S, give birth and also show us where they sht while they are at it.

[@mrs.manrique7411]

@51:40 I think it’s very telling that the orcs are mated with men in The Lord of The Rings, under Saruman. If they can mate, then they have inherent value, theologically and socially, regardless of what Christopher chose to publish or not. The show is being very considerate of the possible origins and allowing Sauron to be the enemy of everyone, orcs, elves, men and dwarves.

[@williamlim9066]

Also, in the PJ films, right before the Uruk-Hai emerges from the mud, Saruman has a line where he says, "Do you know how the Orcs first came into being? They were elves once, taken by the dark powers, tortured and mutilated." So at least as far as the films go, it's entirely plausible for elf-origin orcs in the Second Age to have culture and free will. By the Third Age, Saruman's development of the daylight-capable Uruk-Hai is simply the final mutilation of the orcs by his own dark powers.

[@masterjedi747]

also, the scene of the Uruk-Hai being “born” from the mud is entirely compatible with Saruman utilizing some sort of extra-unnatural IVF + artificial womb gestation process; this would be an even FURTHER twisting of the natural generation process, similar to (but more blatantly evil than) the major ethical issues of the Clones being manufactured for war in Star Wars, etc.

[@danieldunbar2956]

Great videos so far!

[@brianhall5259]

All of your hard work is SOOOOOOO PRECIIIIIOUUUUUUUUSSSSS TO US! Thanks guys!

[@brunaneves9394]

you are absolutely awesome

[@billymeyer99]

Dear Maggie and Corey, thanks again for your work on the three-episode drop which we have just finished. I have been having furiously friendly arguments with my son about the orc baby etc. Loving your analysis, it is worth every penny of the $10 I pledged. I am considering doing another 10 💍💍💍

[@blackeyedlily]

How about the term Ascension instead of Coronation for Numenor? I think I have frequently heard that a monarch ascended to the throne.

[@anni.68]

During season 1 I had the idea that the power of healing does not come from directly from the Mithril, but from the power of the friendship between Elrond and Durin. If the Mithril was good itself, the Balrog would not stay in the Misty Mountains, the only place, where he is surrounded by the "goodness" of the Mithril. The way Annatar concentrates for a moment and most likely puts his evil power into the Mithril before he drops it into the forge seems to confirm this idea, I think. Maybe the Mithril ist like a battery for positive or negative energy.

[@davidmarrazzo774]

The best way to consume Tolkien …take the time to read the books.

[@kyzf]

Absolutely. But adaptations like this can throw new light on aspects of the text.

[@dutchkel]

You're assuming we haven't?

[@AleksiJoensuu]

Hi all at the Rings and Realms team! I wanted to say the production quality has been excellent for the second season! The intro sequence in particular is beautiful, but everything else is, too. In these first episodes, the spoken word audio sounded really sibilant and hollow to me. I just checked the episode 6 analysis and it seems like you've adressed that at least as much that it isn't bothering me anymore. Sounds like it was fixed by episode 5. Thanks for that to the audio folks

[@AsteroidTVGaming]

this is wonderful, thanks so much!

[@TarMody]

Mithril has a function that gives all the rings of power their power and provides the binding element between the One Ring and all the other rings of power. The binding element is due to the entanglement that comes from the nature of incarnation (as predicted by spiritualist philosophy) between the spiritual power that Sauron infused into Mithril (described by touching it) and the spiritual power that he incarnated into it (bound it) when he created the One Ring. Because in Tolkien's mythology, the soul cannot be broken. There is always a bond between all the sub-creations created by incarnation and all the beings that are affected by the incarnation. In this way, all the rings of power are bound to the One Ring and therefore to Sauron as long as he holds the One Ring.

[@Paul_van_Doleweerd]

For anyone enjoying the show and the analysis (and good work!) you could do worse than head over to A Critical Dragon or Philip Chase for their own analyses of this series.

[@TheDanEdwards]

The problem with all this book-knowledge of Numenor is that *those who are only watching the show and don't know the books will have no reason for buying into the drama they see on screen.* So far the RoP writers have not given sufficient on-screen reasons to know why Muriel is despised for having a Palantir; the viewer has no background on why the Phrazon contingent hate the elves.

[@Freshwater121]

Season 1 established the Númenorean distrust of the elves.

[@TheDanEdwards]

​@@Freshwater121 Not very well. Especially lacking was any scene that explained the _existential_ reasons for hatred. The scene about stealing jobs was woefully out of place. Hatred of the elves is important because the entire central subject of LOTR is *death* , and that Elves live for thousands of years while Numenoreans die after a couple of centuries is a big point, and the show writers have yet to bring that to the fore.

[@logangrifo]

But that distrust due to death and not being acceptdd into the lands of the Valar is more something that Sauron will exploit later into Ar-Pharazon's reign. So right now, what you have is a technological/economical competition, as well as xenophobia. The shpw is sowing the seeds that will grow to strangle the island later on.

[@Flash4ML]

@@TheDanEdwards I think this is fair, the Numenorean arc is probably the most unclear at this point, and I was slightly disappointed to still have many questions and concerns about it, given we spent a good chunk of this episode on it. However, we're still only beginning that journey, so I would recommend patience when it comes to Numenor. Hopefully there will be more clarity as that arc develops this season, personally I'm looking forward to a visit to the Faithful in West Numenor

[@hawkname1234]

@@TheDanEdwards I don't agree. I think the show writers have done a very good job bringing Numenor's resentment of the Valar to life. I think people who haven't read the books are oriented enough for the story.

[@TheRealKM22]

I thought Waldreg ended up as Warg food?

[@kyzf]

I'd love to see that he survived, perhaps minus a limb or two. Waldreg has been a fun constant representative of those who bowed to the darkness in order to be spared by it.

[@bethholmes53574]

What is the thing in the water by Maggie???

[@jj48]

How rude! Corey's not a "thing"!

[@bethholmes53574]

@@jj48 🤣🤣🤣 the last thing the camera focuses on after it pans by Maggie’s face 🤣🤣🤣

[@jj48]

@@bethholmes53574 Ah, I'm pretty sure that's a boot.

[@noahunsworth1290]

@@jj48 It's the same boot that Isildur takes and puts on his own foot. He also takes the sword from the dead man.

[@jj48]

@@noahunsworth1290 They managed to get the SAME boot?! How much of the Kickstarter funds did THAT cost??

[@roheryn]

In Jackson's films uruk-hai are shown to be born from the mud, or something. And I get that they are orcs as well, but it's not the same as to say that all orcs are created that way in that trilogy. Anyway, I loved your analysis and have just subscribed to your channel. Good work!

[@jj48]

They don't explicitly say that, but they never give an alternative explanations, either. I think it's fair to say that it's the impression many viewers would have come away with.

[@RachelAllcock]

Or the Elendil-stone shows the future of Numenor? Then it was to be drowned, so that was what it showed. But after that had occurred, perhaps it just shows the remains.

[@karikristinehaugberg3890]

I was wondering why Miriel didn't mention that her father the king was using the palantir too - it wasn't just her. I found that odd.

[@BedanYahu]

Weird that Bronwyn was so quickly off'd. I mean I'm not complaining bc I absolutely hated that relationship. But it felt like they were building her to more. Did the actress just not sign back up like Adar?

[@dutchkel]

Yes

[@jamesgraham1772]

Pharazon’s pose with his sword confused me because it’s the way multiple characters in the 2010 tv adaptation of Romance of the Three Kingdoms hold their sword before dramatically cutting their own throats after a defeat in battle. This may just be a “me” thing though.

[@joniwd]

Best ROP show! keep it up please!!

[@MyJW24]

Don’t the elves know Sauron is a maia? Considering celebrimbor has never met a wizard, you’d think only Sauron would have the power to put on the show he did. Surely it would at least make him suspicious. Maybe celebrimbor just wants to believe his story.

[@jj48]

They know Sauron is a Maia, but he's only one of many. If they're not expecting him, specifically, it's reasonable that they'd think he was one of the countless others.

[@MyJW24]

@@jj48 but how many have ever come to middle earth in human/elvish form?

[@jj48]

@@MyJW24 I could be forgetting something, but the only one that comes to mind is Melian.

[@joemason6319]

​@@MyJW24 A lot of them came to Middle-Earth - openly as Maia - in the First Age. Melian who married King Thingol, Ulmo's servant Ossë who often visited the coast, of course Sauron and the Balrogs, and a whole host marched with the Valar when they came back to defeat Morgoth at the end of the Age. But until the Istari none of them took human or elven form and presented themselves as sent by the Valar to serve and assist. ESPECIALLY not Sauron! So it makes sense that an elf wouldn't immediately assume that a Maia in disguise was secretly Sauron - he knows that Maia crossed the sea often in the past.

[@Parmandur]

I really think the potentially redeemable Orcs makes their wickedness better, because it is tragic.

[@Nu11andV01d]

Is there any textual information on blind people either able or unable to use the Palantir? Just a question your excellent analysis made me think of.

[@KenshinD84]

Interesting that Sauron knows so little about the nature of the dwarves. Didn't he serve/apprentice under Aulë who is the creator of the dwarves? I understand this doesn't mean he has to understand their nature but I thought it would have given some insight to someone such as Sauron who alway seems to be scheming to some extend.

[@johnmooers5594]

"ascend to the throne"

[@rizenarts33]

Rings of power customer base is hilarious 😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂

[@mtank31]

I don't think there's any justification for the way they depicted orc families in this episode. There was plenty of hate about the callous Harfoots in the first season, but I thought it was a really good example of what it must've been like to be part of an early nomadic society. The way that they only survive as a tight-knit group so they promote unity, but also the necessity that you need to be willing to sacrifice the stragglers to survive, which creates this weird disconnect or dichotomy culturally. Also the double meaning in "nobody goes off trail, nobody walks alone" as this mantra of togetherness, but also that it could be a kind of warning (by adding "if" to the start) - that was awesome. On the other hand, the decision regarding the orc family was atrocious. When you talk about the orcs as being corrupted and tortured (ie, traumatised) you should be taking inspiration from what happens to people who undergo trauma and how there's intergenerational consequences. At the very least it stands to reason there'd be neglect and abuse, but I'd say it should have also been envisioned in a much more animalistic (and militaristic way) as well, with consideration that they have a history of enslavement (where they were likely both victims and complicit). I highly doubt reproduction should have anything to do with love or even consent, but more likely dominance, and I don't see the father having an ongoing bond with the baby or mother. In fact, I'd probably envisage it that the baby would immediately be removed to some kind of child concentration camp where they're raised (and protected from cannibalisation), then moulded into warriors or workers, and the mother can get back to work so to speak. There's some real-world examples of some of this, with child soldiers and the kind of dehumanisation and brainwashing they are often put through. I'd like to hear an explanation as to why the orc family was depicted the way it was, but I have trouble believing that the answer would be anything more nuanced than "because they used to be elves". This is even with me admitting that it makes perfect sense for orcs to want to stop fighting and make a home, because there's always an element of self-preservation in almost every form of life, so that tracks. Most of the rest of the orc culture that they've built seems pretty good so far, but this particular scene was immersion-breaking for me.

[@mithlenfinlass2040]

I understand your point of view. I thought about it and my conclusion would be, that even in a group of „monsters“ there could be creatures, who are built different. Yes it was a bit off and I was irritated, but that doesn‘t mean, that it didn‘t excist.

[@Flash4ML]

I quite like your theory of orc culture, and agree that their depiction of orcs was off-putting. However, I checked in with one of the many hate-based channels before I watched the episode, just to get a gauge on what the hooligans were all complaining about this time around, and from the absurd amount of complaints about this I was steeling myself for a whole mini-arc about the humanization of orcs. I laughed aloud when I realized everyone was losing their minds over a wordless ten-second clip of an endearing orc family. Yes, it isn't what I would have preferred, but it's also hardly something I would have even remembered come the end of the season, if it weren't for the big hullabaloo about it online. So anyway, tldr is I agree completely, but I'm not gonna lose hair over it. We move!

[@hawkname1234]

This seems like more of a "why didn't they make the decision I wanted" than a deep argument for why showing an orc family was a bad thing.

[@mtank31]

​@@hawkname1234 I specifically tried to reason through it and make it *not that*, but if that's how it came across, then that's fair. To me the question is whether there's a plausible way this could make sense, and this is one of the only decisions that the show has made where I couldn't think of a way to make it work with any internal (or external) consistency. I wasn't a fan of "the elves will steal our jobs" line in the first season, but we know from the actual real world that it's a really effective way of inciting hostility towards outsiders, so it works perfectly in that regard, especially since we're made to assume the seed was planted by Pharazon.

[@jj48]

One difference to consider between these orcs and others we've seen is Adar's leadership. Adar's influence may be making these orcs a bit different.

[@Carlosbbbbb1]

FIRST BABYYYYYY

[@TomOnTheTube]

Thinking of people who have been traumatised in history, such as those who went through the Holocaust, I think your view that they would be cruel to each other is just plain wrong. But you do you. Oh and this is an interpretation based on the works of Tolkien. They can write what they want and they're doing it in conjunction with the Tolkien estate who i think have more clue about this than randoms on the internet.

[@dustinalonzo4671]

I get that he hijcaked the omen but I don’t understand how the people saw that eagle looking pissed at the unrest and pharazon and thought that was a confirmation for him… the eagle clearly got uppity after he stepped forward and started getting the crowd in his side the way I saw it…

[@jj48]

I think part of it was that the crowd had already turned against Miriel and WANTED an alternative explanation. As C.S. Lewis wrote: "The trouble about trying to make yourself stupider than you really are is that you very often succeed." I think this applies collectively as much as it does individually.

[@christopherrichardbass-bar5727]

The ambiguity of the eagle's arrival needs to be clarified by the showrunners. We don't want to be given the impression that the Valar favor Pharazon.

[@jj48]

Do you think there's a danger of people thinking that?

[@MarcRitzMD]

"The Rings of Power have made a point to depict this in several points" with regards to the diminishing of everything up to the 3rd Age, except in the most important aspects. Numenor is a disorganized, ineffectual mess of a "kingdom". Wow, 300 soldiers? Elendil the Tall who is visibly average. Galadriel who is looking up to everyone else around her?

[@Flash4ML]

A taller Elendil is a fair request, but how tall do you want Galadriel to be lol, there's only so much they can do there. Anyway, I think your perspective on Numenor is very odd, as Corey was saying they are not a military power (yet), the world has been at peace for an age and there is no reason for them to have a large standing army, though they do have a fine maritime tradition, as depicted in season 1. And their civil unrest is an important aspect of the developing arc there, not a detriment to the "grandness" of the kingdom imo

[@MarcRitzMD]

@@Flash4ML Galadriel was said to have been the tallest Elf-woman, same height as Celeborn specifically, who was described as taller than most Teleri. She was said to "stand tall and valiant among Noldor princes". It's not even a matter of casting a basketball player for the role, but simply a matter of cinematography. They were intentionally utilizing angles that made her look up to others. The Numenoreans not yet being a military power is hardly excuse for their great battle in S1 being similar in number to the Battle of Bywater during the Scouring of the Shire. Nor does it explain why every civic scene seems to look small. The party of Bilbo seemed to have been more crowded than all of Armenelos.

[@Flash4ML]

@@MarcRitzMD I don’t know what to tell you, if you actually take issue with the fact that actual plot and characterization takes higher priority in their cinematography than the fact that Galadriel was briefly noted to be as tall as her husband, then I suppose we just agree to disagree on that point. It’s not an issue to me, or anyone else I’ve spoken with for the past two years, so I’m inclined to believe you are alone in this particular nitpick. Similarly, the visual presentation of the Numenoreans and their battle last season was not problematic in my opinion, in fact for me it skews more positively in comparison to some of more important choices they made, so once again, can’t say I agree with you there

[@hawkname1234]

That's your beef? That the actors aren't tall enough to comport with your book knowledge trivia that is not at all required for their story arcs?

[@MarcRitzMD]

@@Flash4ML why do you think Tolkien explicitly pointed out several times and in every description of her physicality that she was tall? Because Tallness has metaphysical significance. Google "Rings of Power Galadriel height" and you'll notice that fans do in fact discuss the topic.

[@MarcRitzMD]

The audio is cooked. Starts off with the intro crackling and the levels thereafter are mismatched

[@okitasan]

WIld how much effort they put into the production but seems like they completely borked the audio. Hopefully it's just these 3 first episodes

[@jj48]

I can't hear it, myself, but I guess enough people are mentioning it that it's probably something that could be improved.

[@sladewilson9273]

Peter Jackson has orcs emerging from slime, wtf are you talking about?

[@travisspazz1624]

Def weakest of the 3. Had the clunky S1 editing back in this one. How did Isildur end up in the spider dome? Bronwyn?! And the eagle dude has such a cool "highly sus, but highly watchable" look, they need to give him (and numenor) more!

[@Flash4ML]

I liked it better than Episode 1 honestly, we got followups on Isildur, Arondir, and most importantly Theo (our Nazgul-to-be 🤞), all characters I enjoyed, movement on the Numenor plot, and the beginning of the Seven's forging. Episode 1's focus on explaining Sauron's actions was harder for me to swallow, as those had weaker foundations imo. And obviously Episode 2 is going to be hard to beat for a while I think

[@travisspazz1624]

​@@Flash4MLoh man, I think 2x01 is one of the best of the show! But also genuinely loved the last 10 minutes of 2x02! That Theo Nazgul theory is wild 😅

[@noahunsworth1290]

I was expecting an exciting scene of Isildur collapsing into the orc tunnel below the building and getting washed away by the water to the spider caves but it looks like the showrunners spent the production budget on the spider fight instead. :)

[@Flash4ML]

@@noahunsworth1290 true, honestly it might have been something they considered shooting or even started, but didn’t make the final cut. But now it’s of course some major plot hole, HOW could he possibly have ended up by the mountains, impossible! Bad writing, bad show, bad everything!1!1!!

[@Blarpy110]

Why exactly does Celembrimbor need Annator now? He was already told how to make rings of power. Everyone understands that adaptations can and will change up the story but when the changes don’t make sense, are executed poorly with cringe dialogue.. people will tune out.

[@jj48]

From Celebrimbor's point of view, or from Sauron's? Sauron still needs Rings made for Men and Dwarves, so that's why he's there; and from Celebrimbor's point of view, his friend has returned and has now revealed himself to be a messenger from the West. What's he going to do, kick him out?

[@TomOnTheTube]

Hurry up with your "tuning out" and leave the show to the rest of us.

[@Blarpy110]

@@jj48 Sauron the Deceiver of unwelcomed house guests! I feel like they made a mistake doing this out of order. I get what you’re saying but its story justifications for it is a reach, imo. We can agree to disagree.

[@Blarpy110]

@@TomOnTheTubedeal! I wanted to give the first 3 episodes a chance, which is more than what half of the audience from season 1 was willing to do. Enjoy your show. I hope there’s enough of you left to justify the show continuing.

[@Chociewitka]

35:39 well, it might be different, but if the audience opposes it, that stil means it is "wrong", as far as it has failed to convince the audience, even if theiy used visual story telling and the audience does not get their point, they have stil failed in conveying their message

[@Aa_Mm]

Except "the audience" isn't a hive mind and there are people living outside of these online echo chambers who actually enjoy the show, they're not nitpicking it to death. Shockingly, things not being to your taste doesn't make them "wrong".

[@jj48]

​@@Aa_MmI don't disagree, but as someone who grew up with MST3K and Rifftrax, I've never viewed enjoying a show and nitpicking a show to be mutually exclusive.

[@Aa_Mm]

@@jj48 Well, from my understanding, nitpicking means specifically looking for faults in an overly pedantic manner. I'm not sure if that approach is all that conducive to enjoyment of the show, especially a fantasy one 😅 If we were talking about overanalyzing, then I'd agree that the two aren't mutually exclusive

[@jj48]

@@Aa_Mm I think that's pretty much what I mean by nitpicking too. The real question is, what is the motivation behind it? For me, it's just another layer of fun. I can enjoy a show or movie at its surface level, in a lore deep-dive, and being overly pedantic on the most irrelevant of details, all at the same time. I think the trouble comes in when people focus on the nitpicks to the point where they won't or can't enjoy the other levels.

[@Aa_Mm]

@@jj48 my bad then, I always thought nitpicking implied engaging in bad faith with the source material as the motivation; so it's not that someone can't enjoy a show, it's that they already decided they won't and are then finding the reasons why. But that's obviously too narrow an understanding and my wobbly English skills are showing 😄