George RR Martin on the Scouring of the Shire

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A Song of Ice and Fire/Game of Thrones Author George R. R. Martin Interview on the Scouring of the Shire from Lord of the Rings by JRR Tolkien

[@FantasticMrJack]

"I never trusted Boromir" *gets Sean Bean as Eddard Stark so he can kill him*

[@land1877]

Hilarious 😂😂😂😂😂🤣🤣🤣

[@blueeyed5074]

Now that's playing the long game.. :))

[@PitaGyro161]

lol

[@lcflngn]

So unfair to Sean Bean. Try Sharpe. Spoiler, he lives! Tbh I haven’t seen the last eps... you never know.

[@RomaInvicta202]

Eddard Stark character was written long years before the show, likely before you were born - so Sean Bean had 0 to do with it

[@emptank]

Young George: you can't kill Gandalf! Old George: you can't bring Gandalf back!

[@Cuuniyevo]

Young Jon: You can't kill me! Season 8 Jon: You shouldn't have brought me back!

[@purefoldnz3070]

Jon Snow the Brown.

[@MikaelKKarlsson]

Maybe bring him back, to kill him again?!

[@johnnymcblaze]

@@purefoldnz3070 Jon Snow the Yellow is much funnier.

[@mattoni553]

@@Cuuniyevo John Snow becomes John White

[@jagvillani338]

The Scouring of the Shire shows that you can destroy the greatest evil in the world, yet there will still be evil in the world and that you cannot destroy evil itself.

[@pr_disaster2238]

It also serves to complete the hobbits’ character development. They left the Shire with practically no world knowledge or experience contending with external strife. Finding their home in disarray forced them to use what they learned on their journey to rally the other hobbits and win back the Shire; and they did it not with the help of the big folk, but on their own merit.

[@z2ei]

This. No Big Folk, no Wizards, no Bombadil or Eagles or what have you. It's just these four Hobbits who have become heroes in their own right leading their people to throw off the oppressors.

[@davidknight2104]

100%

[@MrCompassionate01]

Another reading I like of the Scouring is that after you metamorphose into an adult you can never go back. The Shire is just like childhood, it is a small but beautiful place where everything feels like it's going to last forever. When Frodo returns his character arc is complete and he has seen too much of the horrors of the world to return back to the carefree bliss of youth, the war has followed him. In this sense you could see it as a projection of Tokein's experiences in war. You can physically go back to the beaufiul fields of Britain but the war is still inside you, you bring the war home with you.

[@Waltham1892]

@@pr_disaster2238 I was about to say the exact same thing, but you said it first and better.

[@TheGrimmCommoner]

"I never trusted Boromir" Makes Sean Bean the most trustworthy and honest man in Westeros.

[@Erin-tg2wn]

*the only honest man in Westeros

[@GANGLYMAN117]

"Peter Jacksons adaptations are as good as you could possibly get." Wish we could say the same about A Song of Ice and Fires later seasons adaptation..

[@joaquincardona8256]

Later seasons weren't adaptations

[@balern4]

@Warron93 Season 1 was the best. Then Season 2, 4, 5 were pretty good. And Season 3 was slightly better. Then the writting fell obviously, though David and Dan managed to entertain us with great moments like - The Battle of The Bastards. Season 6 was okay. But Season 7 was a real disappointment. And Season 8 is the worst.

[@iiTzoreo1]

Later seasons were fan fiction that showed just how essential George’s writing was to the success of the shows

[@alphagamer9505]

@Gooby a animated series would be dope

[@alphagamer9505]

@1993DJC s4 was the best one

[@Waltham1892]

"You can't kill Gandalf!" Ned Stark has left the chat...

[@Irmarinen]

One does not simply kill Istari

[@sethfinberg348]

Not with 10,000 dragons could you accomplish this

[@masterexploder9668]

Gandalf actually died to Balrog (they both killed each other) but he was ressurected and sent back to finish his job.

[@Matthew-McCallister]

JRR Tolkien: *Kills essential protagonists George RR Martin: “Interesting.”

[@Anicius_]

He never killed any essential protagonist

[@totallyrelevantperson]

@@Anicius_ he killed essential characters like they were crops to a sickle in the silmarillion

[@Facerip]

FænoR Lol. Havent read much Tolkien have you?

[@Anicius_]

Im talking about lotr chill Tolkien is my all time favorite writer and always will be.

[@PitaGyro161]

@@Anicius_ Boromir

[@Archonch]

The host is really good actually. She let him speak even with some deep pauses. Many other hosts would lack the confidence to do that and would feel like they need to speak all the time.

[@twoteesful]

And she jumps in just at the right time when he starts talking about the audience getting hacked up by axes

[@FgtRtd]

She really is!

[@Blaisem]

In addition to your points, she was also knowledgeable in the material. You can tell from her recounting of LOTR, especially in the effort she made toward the pronunciations, that she has experience with it. And her questions revealed a strong awareness of GRRM's past public appearances. Clearly, she was well researched. Definitely a top-quality host.

[@13141Scott]

Baring in mind the scouring of the shire had a lot of connotations to British soldiers returning home after ww1. Those men were forever scarred and changed immensely by the time they returned (and indeed many of their friends didn't) The delights of home was forever changed. Life would never be the same again for them. Tolkien new this as he served in the western front . For me it's one of the saddest parts of LOTRs

[@manband20]

From a literary standpoint, it's pretty bad because it just drags out the ending after the massive climax of the entire Trilogy had just happened with the Ring and Mount Doom. From a thematic standpoint like this and knowing Tolkien's experience with WW1 and the experiences of the soldiers, you are 1000% correct. Even though PTSD wasn't known or treated back then, The Scouring is the best analogy for it. You could argue he even has the old enemy show back up (Saruman /Germany) and terrorize the civilians of the Shire (the Battle of Britain) and the final hope is the Hobbits who just returned from a war that utterly drained them, but they need to continue to fight or their home will be lost (the soldiers who escaped at Dunkirk up until the Americans arrived)

[@mickeye6428]

Those two things aren't related at all.

[@mickeye6428]

@@manband20 From a literary standpoint, it's the most important part of the story. It shows that the Hobbits were right to leave. It's the completion of the hero's journey. "PTSD wasn't known or treated back then" Wrong. it was just called by it's more accurate name, shell shock.

[@lgporra]

Tolkien denied though and he was not very fond in allegories.

[@mralireza931]

​@@lgporra As Tolkien said himself, he didn't like allegory but he believed in the readers assigning meaning to a story. In other words TLOTR is not exclusively a story drawn from WW2 (allegory) but it can be perceived that way if the reader wants to; as it can be considered in tens of other ways.

[@asterixobelix20]

Idk why but I really like the way he says the word "books".

[@Emerald081]

lol true

[@daystillnight]

holy shit yeah i thought i was the only one lol

[@greenboots_4661]

Buks

[@orc001]

You can almost imagine the white spittle on the sides of his mouth when you hear it 😂

[@sharkrancher282]

It's 'cause he means it when he says it!

[@alanbarnett718]

"If Professor Tolkien was here we could argue about whether he should have brought Gandalf back." What I wouldn't pay to see that!

[@freakymoejoe2]

God what a show that would be

[@ck891]

Although Martin is a literary genius, Tolkien would utterly destroy him

[@rotwang2000]

Tolkien's work leans heavily on traditional narrative styles. When I look at Lord of the Rings next to the rest of the Legendarium, it is perhaps a good thing he kept the death toll as low as he did. The Silmarillion is really one long series of tragedies with horrible things and even though they do win great victories they keep losing the fight. If Gandalf had died it would have been just another great tragic loss. Now at least we have some sense things are better for a while and Gandalf was there to help get it achieved.

[@NoobNota]

"I did begin a story placed about 100 years after the Downfall, but it proved both sinister and depressing. Since we are dealing with Men, it is inevitable that we should be concerned with the most regrettable feature of their nature: their quick satiety with good. So that the people of Gondor in times of peace, justice and prosperity, would become discontented and restless - while the dynasts descended from Aragorn would become just kings and governors - like Denethor or worse. I found that even so early there was an outcrop of revolutionary plots, about a centre of secret Satanistic religion; while Gondorian boys were playing at being Orcs and going around doing damage. I could have written a 'thriller' about the plot and its discovery and overthrow - but it would have been just that. Not worth doing." Tolkien won the debate 30 years before ASOIAF was written

[@fillosof66689]

@@NoobNota where is that quote of his from?

[@shane1489]

It’s nice to actually see someone interview him that isn’t extremely pretentious. Usually they seem like they want the attention from the audience more than they want to interview him.

[@dangerdan2592]

Agreed. I actually enjoy watching this interview because she asks good questions and let's him talk.

[@FrameByFrameThoughts]

Yeah totally instead of having immature little kids asking this guy questions there are-two mature adults having a logical conversation

[@freedomisbrightestindungeons]

She is though, she talks with her hands because her mind is weak

[@AAAAAA-zw7oh]

@Mourning Star could you give me an example of a pretentious question she asks? I just can't find one. I must be a pseudointellectual English major without even knowing. 😂

[@baguettegott3409]

@@freedomisbrightestindungeons Yeah, because that's exactly how that works...

[@ieuanhunt552]

I don't think Lord Of The Rings has an unhappy ending. It's bittersweet. Melancholic.

[@grimkaizer8417]

Yeah, it's captures the "long defeat" and "final victory," and the crushing sense of loss, but Frodo is rewarded, or at least granted grace. The ending between Sam and Frodo always fucking chokes me, because its really the moment the books were leading up to. With the One Ring destroyed it's time for the elves to leave, magic will be a distant memory and the children born after Aragorn's reign will think Orcs were fiction. Constantly, from Moria, to Amon Hen, Minas Morgul, Osgiliath, the lost Palantirs, etc, we are reminded that the wonder and splendor of the world is practically gone. What little we see in the books that seem magic, majestic and beautiful is a shadow of its former self and even with the defeat of evil, it wont return. Longwinded writing aside, Sam losing Frodo is all of the above consolidated into a single character moment. Frodo was the last great hero of Arda/Middle-Earth, his sacrifice means a character relationship we have grown attached to is going away and in that moment we can finally experience the same sadness these characters speak of on a more immediate personal level.

[@phillmoore1561]

@@grimkaizer8417 From what I remember, Sam was granted access to Valinor, just he decided to go later. What I'm not sure of is if Sam had a family like in the movies. It would be awkward for him to leave them behind. Mary and Pippin stayed in the shire though. Gimli eventually left the mines of the mountains around Helm's Deep and also sailed to Valinor, I believe the only dwarf to be allowed to do so.

[@grimkaizer8417]

@@phillmoore1561 he didn't exactly refuse and choose to go later, he just wasn't granted access yet. Frodo says "in time you will come too" because the weariness of the ring hadnt effected him yet. But yeah much later when you was a more elder hobbit he did travel to valinor, for he was a ringbearer. He did have a family too, but by that point they were all adults and Im sure he had a tearful goodbye to his wife.

[@leonedralev3776]

@@grimkaizer8417 he left for the Undying Lands after his wife died.

[@emmaphilo4049]

Totally agree

[@damienchristopher5652]

*book has happy ending *Sad George R R Martin noises

[@FunkMastaMegaFlex]

And like the grumpy old wizard he is he lumbers too his tree castle, smokes a pipe with a grumpy expressions.

[@lastzeit2251]

At least Tolkien finished his books george is only talking around it hm....... it might be hard after d & d ruined it to find a respectfully ending.

[@nathancrossen2224]

@@lastzeit2251 I also do not care for how much trash he talks about Harry Potter.

[@tyalangand]

@@lastzeit2251 Tolkien finished LOTR because his friends pushed him to do that, everything else he basically left unfinished. And that's not to frown on Tolkien, I am his psycho-fan. But I don't like the comparison. Martin and Tolkien are more alike than many would imagine.

[@Ezio999Auditore]

*book series has an endind* *seething Martin*

[@I.am.Vunderful]

The Scouring of the Shire was a device Tolkien used to demonstrate how changed the Hobbits had become. When they were surrounded by Aragorn, Legoland, Gili, Gandalf, etc. It is hard to see how the Hobbits have developed. But think about this... they return to the Shire to see Men and Saruman have taken it over, and without hesitation, take it back. Would they have been able to do that before their journey?

[@douggieharrison6913]

legoland lmao

[@I.am.Vunderful]

@@douggieharrison6913 hahahaha, I didn't even notice that! 😂 autocorrect

[@troygrindley3793]

I love it when George talks about Tolkien. He still seems like the kid he describes reading the books first hand.

[@markalanmcconnelljr]

GRRM is woefully obsessed with JRRT. its pathetic.

[@ahumanbeingfromtheearth1502]

@@markalanmcconnelljr sorry that you experience so little joy in your life that anyone else doing so is a threat to your self image.

[@goethe3116]

earth lol Stfu he IS utterly obsessed, and so are all white Americans when it comes to all things England or Britain, not just Tolkien's work.

[@goethe3116]

@@markalanmcconnelljr Ikr? It's hilarious how he is sooo fucking obsessed, HE LITERALLY COULDN'T STOP TALKING ABOUT TOLKIEN EVEN IF YOU FED HIM DONUTS.

[@marcusfraser2790]

@@markalanmcconnelljr what kinda stupid comment is that mate? The interviewer asked him about it, he answered. Tolkien is obviously a inspiration for GRRM, so why wouldn't he talk about something he enjoys/loves? Causing trouble for no good reason is what you are doing

[@kevj4584]

This was probably the best interviewer I have seen with George. Many big props to her!

[@aurex8937]

Aside from the "they thrown the ring into the fire" blunder she kept asking non-relevant questions and interrupting George before he could finish his sentences. Not much so in this clip, but you can see it happen often in the full interview.

[@AnonymousAnonposter]

You should watch more interviews then

[@kevj4584]

@@AnonymousAnonposter I've watched a number of interviews with George. Most consist of the same boring questions over and over. I agree this interviewer had some screw ups, but I appreciated more of a philosophical approach to the nature of story arcs, etc. Are there any particular interviews you'd recommend?

[@poz1905]

Aurex I don’t know man. I was there that night and George was able to get his thoughts and points across. I thought it was a great interview

[@wooshbait36]

You know she gave him a blowie before this interview lol

[@j-dubb614]

I always imagine George RR Martin as a dungeon master saying, "So, you're invited to a wedding."

[@oscarbautista4156]

lmao

[@satortenet]

I think we just figured something out: Gandalf's death triggered something on a young Martin that explains so many things.

[@sambarris9843]

Tolkien was a WWI vet. The Scouring of the Shire at least in part represents the fact that homecoming is itself a trial of war. Everything Odysseus goes through to get home from Troy expresses the same reality (and I highly recommend the books Achilles in Vietnam and Odysseus in America for more on that). I didn't get it as a child. I didn't get it until I went to war myself, came home to find that the U.S. had become a place I didn't recognize, and saw Ted Sandyman lurking behind the eyes of childhood friends. Many of Tolkien's generation came home to smoldering rubble and barren fields, so all things considered I got off easy. I'm not a filmmaker, so I can't say whether Jackson made the right call cutting it. Maybe there was no way to make it work in a movie, but the story becomes far less true without it.

[@KS-xk2so]

This is 100% why he wrote it. Coming home from WW1 and watching some of his fellow Vets never able to leave the battlefield behind. While others who may have been stupid kids before were now hardened men of action. Basically mirrors Frodo and Merry/Pippin respectively to a tee.

[@suicidesquid3581]

In the books, after Frodo gets taken out by Shelob, Sam takes the ring and uses for a long time. He uses it enough to have a lasting effect. And years later, after his wife dies, he follows Frodo to the Grey Havens... "the last of the ring-bearers."

[@jamethlawthon5602]

He had it for 3 days tops. It'll fuck you up real quick!

[@ChrisjayH1]

I wasn't a fan of cutting Bombadil, but it made sense. The moment they got the gifts and Sam didn't get the box, I was like "Fuuuuuck..."

[@alanbarnett718]

Every adaptation cuts Bombadil. It's because he's, basically, impossible. He doesn't fit *anything*. When people say to budding authors, "Murder your children," that's the sort of thing they're talking about. Tom Bombadil obviously meant a lot to Tolkien, but somehow it just doesn't come across.

[@GodwynDi]

@@alanbarnett718 It does to me. I've always loved Bombadil since I was a kid.

[@killslay]

I couldn't stand the books because of all the superfluous bits that didn't have any real bearing on the story, Like bombadil and the pages of songs. I love the movies because they cut a lot of that fat and got to what made lotr interesting (to me at least)

[@killslay]

@farorin I could see that, I'm just a bit short on attention span sometimes!

[@mjbull5156]

Tolkien himself said that putting Bombadil into LOTR was a self indulgence (because he enjoyed the character) that really did not fit well into the narrative. Bombadil does not add anything that is required, so he is the easiest choice to edit out.

[@monalucas6421]

One of the many things I appreciate with Martin's books are the details of the horrible cost of war on the people. I wish more war stories including that, particularly in pop culture.

[@videogamebomer]

@ShogunBean In the defense of modern audiences Tolkien doesn't make it easy with he draining writing style

[@MrGameonthis]

Yeah when Arya’s heading north with the nights watch you get some really good detail and insight of the horrors of war.

[@DarthPlato]

Tolkien was at least two things: a man of the Classics, and a son of Great Britain. The Scouring of the Shire may be an echo of both. In the Classics, the Scouring compares to Odysseus returning home to Ithaca and finding his house in disarray on account of Antinous and the other suitors. Also, the Scouring could be an echo of Britain's past, specifically the shock some towns and communities experienced when dramatically impacted by Industrialization and the specialist economy.

[@danielbeaney4407]

I had many of a conversation with a woman who studied Tolkien in university. Alot of what he wrote about was a reflection of his life and things he experienced in it. The characters from Elves to Hobbits are based on the mix of classes of people he met in the trenches. For example Bilbo represents an educated person from a rural back round where as Sam is someone whos more working class rural imagaine a land owner being freinds with soneone who works the land they're accents in the film show this) the Orcs are working class Londoners (again the accent) etc. The dead marshes are also based on something he must have witnessed during the war.

[@landoonline6393]

@@danielbeaney4407 'The dead marshes', in the book, is full of imagery also found in other WW1 poets/writers' works. It's often tied to the 'shelled, muddy hellscape' that was No Man's Land at horrific battlefields like Ypres/Passchendaele.

[@ulmo5536]

Jonas Martin S. and the Somme which Tolkien himself was a part of

[@DarthPlato]

The relationship between Frodo and Sam was very similar to that of a British officer and his batman.

[@DarthPlato]

I think it's obvious that Gandalf's "shall not pass" line was inspired by General Petain's similar line at Verdun--they shall not pass.

[@quentinlewis1153]

You know the host has legit geek cred when she pronounces it "Morrdorrrr"

[@jamethlawthon5602]

Gotta roll your r's off the cliff!

[@kingofthesharks]

Scouring of the Shire adds/enhances a lot of themes about the journey taken and its effects on the world. Though, if it were implemented in the film, it would've killed the mood abruptly considering how they directed the ending (not to mention some people already thought the ending was borderline too long). I think they made a nice choice to omit it all things considered, the Weathertop injury got the point across as a decent alternative.

[@sammythemc]

Yeah, I understand the decision to take it out, but it really was one of my favorite parts of the books. The hobbits are our audience-inserts, so it was always nice to see a little bit of the courage and martial skill from these warrior-kings they've been hanging out with, like Sam warding of Shelob, Merry helping with the Witch King, etc. By the Scouring of the Shire, all have them have brought back armor and arms and Merry and Pippin have quite literally grown from the experience. They're able to brush off a couple of ruffians who were absolutely terrifying when they thought that's who Aragorn was when he was first introduced, and it's a nice benchmark for their (and our) development after the epic ordeal they just went through.

[@kingofthesharks]

@@sammythemc Yea, It's similar to that endgame satisfaction in an RPG video game when you've leveled up so much after 50 hours of world-saving, and then return to your hometown area where things are now piece of cake. Of course, books and RPGs have the freedom to be dozens of hours long. Films do not, so stuff will often have to be cut in order to not dilute the main focus.

[@oliviawilliams6204]

Could have actually helped the ending, providing some actions in middle of that too long ending

[@LordCornflake]

I think most likely it was taken out because in the movie they’d already had both Saruman and Wormtongue killed in Isengard, so they wouldn’t be able to sack the shire as they do in the books. That’s just my theory anyway, but makes sense to me

[@murdokdracul]

@@LordCornflake I think it's more that they killed Saruman and Wormtongue in Isengard because they'd already decided to cut Scouring for pacing and length concerns.

[@bambostarla6259]

In the middle earth lore, gandalf does die but he's an emissary of the valar ( the gods of the legendarium ). So after he dies he is reincarnated by the valar so he can complete his task.

[@warbler1984]

He's probably going to bring Jon Snow back so he can't really complain

[@theinformationstation5328]

Problem is tho tho Gandalf is already a Maiar named Olorin, so he was already a minor God sent to Middle Earth to combat Sauron. So a lil different JS.

[@sernoddicusthegallant6986]

Hes not talking about how the plot explains the resurrection but how the resurrection affects the plot.

[@ulmo5536]

Gandalf is already immortal so it all fits. Hate this critisism from George.

[@theinformationstation5328]

Ulmo Gandalf is not Immortal. His soul is immortal and would be given a place of Halls of Mandos, however he was a Maiar made flesh, so death was a very real issue for him.

[@raylast3873]

„Good editors are even more rare than good writers“ *Frederick Engels has entered the chat*

[@balabanasireti]

You mean Friedrich Engels, right?

[@notevenironicallyfunny204]

Passione Nera close enough

[@ickyfist]

Well duh. To be a good editor you essentially have to be an even better writer. And if you're such a good writer, why be an editor?

[@TomorrowWeLive]

Ironic comment considering the Scouring of the Shire is an allegory for Socialism

[@lamascararota666]

@@TomorrowWeLive It is not! Tolkien hated allegory, and if there were any allegorical themes in there they were most definitely not referring to contemporary events

[@philipbohi]

I don't understand all this talk about Tolkien. He didn't write the Lord of the Rings- he translated them from the Red Book of the Westmarch. The Scouring of the Shire happened! What are people talking about?

[@davididiart5934]

Revisionists trying to change history after the fact. Orcs were the BAD GUYS! Get over it, Orkies!

[@PBNIP]

Wrong

[@heiko5129]

@@PBNIP Not wrong. You are just alienated by illuminati fake news

[@HomoChomsky]

@@PBNIP Wright.

[@jasonfajardo8109]

@@davididiart5934 Jesus Christ man come on its current year. Orcs have rights too.

[@themastermason1]

I always take issue with Martin when he scoffs at the idea of a good man being a good king and citing Aragorn as being simplistic. Here Martin fails to realize Aragorn, while by all measure a good man is 87 years old by the time of Lord of the Rings during which he served as a mercenary for both Rohan and Gondor, his birthright, Chieftain of the Dunedain Rangers and his foster father was Elrond, an elven lord and twin brother of the first king of Numenor. Basically Aragorn was raised from the start to be a good king.

[@Tyrantofthewind]

And your point is what exactly? His point is that Aragorn is too perfect a solution and has things handed to him. He doesn't have to deal with the consequences of his absence prior to Return of the King, as he is handed a city with a dead leader that needs saving, he can live for so long that the problems of succession are a distant worry, and his policy is never really shown. He is the "knight in shining armor" coming out of "nowhere" to save the day but on the level of a king.

[@themastermason1]

​@@TyrantofthewindI see your points but as for my point, Aragorn has had much longer to mature and learn to be a leader compared to a number of the candidates for the Iron Throne who are no older than 20 (in the books) and make a number of rash decisions due to their lack of experience. Since they lack experience outright they defer to someone more experienced/ambitious like Tywin for Joffery. As for being handed Minas Tirith, I'll give you some points there. The books of the Lord of the Rings are effectively the result of Gandalf and Sauron plotting against each other and Aragorn is a pawn in Gandalf's plan. Tolkien's subversion here is that Aragorn isn't the ultimate hero and doesn't actually win the fight as Sauron actually wins when Frodo claims the ring at the very end since the Nazgul beeline straight for Frodo. Gollum's self-interested intervention is an anomaly to Gandalf's and Sauron's plans. If Aragorn attempted a (legitimate) coup of Gondor, his attempt would be costly, likely weakening Gondor and causing Sauron to accelerate his plans causing worse problems. Prior to the resurfacing of the ring and Gollum's confession, Sauron was laying low and Gandalf was still working to rally everyone. As for Martin's challenges of typical fantasy tropes, they're the result of Tolkien copycats and copycats of the copycats not Tolkien himself. Martin has said as much in other interviews.

[@mickeye6428]

Aragorn was never a mercenary.

[@mickeye6428]

@@Tyrantofthewind "He doesn't have to deal with the consequences of his absence prior to Return of the King" That is his entire arc.

[@Tyrantofthewind]

@@themastermason1 Yes, Aragorn's attempt to overthrow the steward who clearly did not want him there would have been costly - which is the point Martin is making. Aragorn is a character that has to make little sacrifices to his ideology or character in order to get what he wants. It is all handed to him on a silver platter. Contrast him with Dany, who had to sacrifice three lives for her dragons, many of her principles in order to become Khaleesi, and even betrays and murders the slave owners in order to acquire an army of Unsullied. The world forces her to make compromises, but what does Aragorn compromise on? Nothing, because he doesn't need to. His ghost army is just sitting there for him and the biggest decision he has to make with them is releasing them after they have helped kill his enemies. You then have a kingdom ready for him to take the throne of and he even gets his girl in the end. GRRM doesn't like unrealistic leaders who are not forced to make questionable or outright horrendous calls in order to establish their rule, and I completely agree with him. Further, I think only minor changes would have to be made in order to make him more compelling (like changing magic ghost army to disaffected human allies of Sauron that Aragorn wins to his side via negotiation and war). Aragorn has a passable internal conflict, but his external conflicts are laughable.

[@Jefrejtor]

Really enjoying this interviewer's perfect balance between entertainment and making space for the interviewee.

[@SamiP-ik7vj]

The Shire had a "happy as can be" ending (one which echoes and bestows a "forgotten origin" to the beginning of the Prologue of Chaucer's Canterbury Tales). Two main characters didn't. Because one can never go back home after partaking in a war (perhaps in more ways than one) and be the same as in the beginning. Also we are never explicitly told what happened to, say, Radagast, Alatar and Pallando - a choice which allows every sufficiently interested reader to partake in the "completing" of the story.

[@PrzybyszzMatplanety]

We know that they failed, but exact nature of each failure is vague at best. About the two Blue we know nothing at all, but Radagast loved animals and plants too much over people and remained among wild things.

[@MR-yx8hj]

I took the Scouring of the Shire as somewhat a symbol of what young men went through after WW1. They came home but home wasn’t the same.

[@christunnell2377]

To be fair, in the real Conan stories, he usually almost doesn't make it out of his fights. Howard wrote Conan fighting as a bear fights, strong, crushing blows, with surprising speed and dexterity, but he quite often takes as much as he dishes out. Conan wins thru his sheer will to survive more than skill or luck.

[@spicydeath82]

i've always viewed the scouring as a showcase for how those four friends had grown compared to when they left home. they all had become mature adults finally, showed leadership, bravery and intelligence. the opposite of how they were when they left. that the events hadn't destroyed, them despite their small stature.

[@bunsonbaker4156]

Tolkien knew the story he wanted to tell. The fallout of the journey was crucial to the whole narrative. Tolkien still had a lot of story left to write. You don’t fix Tolkien’s world.

[@housewise7757]

Great interview. Great job to the interviewer! She did awesome.

[@devanman7920]

When I read this as a young man it was a massive dose of a grown up reality

[@jeepeedurocher]

My god, finally seeing a host that respects Martin and his works while conversing and asking him questions

[@joeplumley3238]

GRRM is such a great writer. I can listen to him talk about it forever. His fantasy and sci-fi knowledge has to be legendary.

[@iagocasabiellgonzalez7807]

6:31 We're definintely getting unicorns in the Winds of Winter, can't wait for Rickon and Davo's storylines. Hell he may have actually writing about them around the days of this interview. Also, she may be one of the best interviewers i've seen.

[@dangerdan2592]

I really like this interviewer. She seems so comfortable up there. I've seen other clips of her interviewing him and she never really annoyed me like many interviewers do.

[@marcellozanardelli7713]

Could you post the links of other interviews with her?

[@petergianakopoulos4926]

I'd have to agree .. most of them.act like fanboys and girls which is annoying .. laughing at everything.. etc..

[@GhettoFabulousLorch]

The Scouring of the Shire is the reversal of the prologue in The Hobbit and is a representation of the growth that the Hobbits have achieved in The Lord of the Rings. It is the ultimate thesis for the inclusion of the Hobbits in the story.

[@luminaryprism75]

Having read TLOTR all the way through for my first time earlier this year, the Scouring of the Shire was my favorite chapter of Return of the King. He’s spot on w this analysis.

[@MrEvers]

I could listen to this man for hours

[@17Watman]

Even though Gandalf comes back he doesn’t do everything for the rest of the Fellowship. Frodo still thinks he’s dead and it’s not til after he destroys the Ring that he finds out.

[@susanbuckminster282]

Thank you!

[@rjsmind]

great interviewer, great audience, great martin

[@TheLordUrban]

If they were smart the six guys with axes would be afraid of Conan.

[@juresaiyan]

HAIL CROM!

[@mjbull5156]

I had a similar experience as GRRM with LOTR. The first time I read it, at a similar age to him,I was put off by the Scouring of the Shire and horror coming to the hobbits home. When I reread the story I found it was necessary to finish the four hobbits character arcs.

[@geert574]

The scouring of Kings Landing amiright 😏🔥🐲

[@robertregan637]

The Scouring of the Shire was a great ending plus the halfling Merry and Pipin got to shine along with a few others and it was put in to shown that war can happen anywhere.

[@SankofaNYC]

I love how the interviewer knows just when to move on and save George from himself and get the train back on the tracks as he begins to go verbalize the audience being hacked to bits and everyone reading their obituaries... Like "uhmm ok George sooo back to the books and not the actual audience members 😳" 😭😂

[@thesnipingseal8011]

I think the movie adapted the message that the Scouring Of The Shire tries to tell fairly well. Frodo’s wound from the Nazgûl sword never healed. He is missing a finger. After fighting the ring and travelling across Middle Earth with nothing but a small pack of bread he will have PTSD for as long as he lives in Middle Earth

[@Sipu97]

Yup. The movie also takes a different route with the Shire: nothing has changed, life is as peaceful and ordinary as it was before, but Frodo has changed drastically and can never go back to how he was. It emphasises Frodo's change quite well. I like both the book and the movie versions.

[@TanukiDigital]

@@jr5925 Scouring of the Shire was one of the most important parts of the book to me. It really felt like a big piece was missing from the movies without it. In contrast I was completely fine with them dropping ol' Bombadil (though I was sad not to see Old Man Willow and, particularly sad not to see the Barrow Downs).

[@oliviawilliams6204]

James R well the scourging of the shire while it would have made the movie even longer I think could have helped cut off on the overdose of endings at the end by cutting those by some actions there. As for Tom I don’t think even works in the books, so even less so in movies

[@mickeye6428]

@@jr5925 The scouring of the Shire is thematically the most important part of the story. It shows that the Hobbits were right to take up the call and fight, rather than just stay at home where it is safe. It shows that their conscious decision to be heroic benefits them and their people directly, not just the world is some vague sense. If they hadn't gone someone else would have probably destroyed the ring. No one else would have saved the Shire.

[@iapetusmccool]

@@oliviawilliams6204 I'm not sure the Scouring would really have worked on film. The pacing would be wrong. The never-ending endings could be solved by ending with Aragorn's coronation, and just using narration/montage to sum up what happened after.

[@BradiKal61]

I was disappointed that Peter Jackson's LOTR movie left out the scouring of the Shire, as I felt it was what really proved how the halfling members of the Fellowship were changed by their experience.

[@jamesharrington4518]

I still think the films did a good job. Like how the four of them were in the green dragon and felt out of place.

[@murigrim]

"shouldnt have brought gandalf back" *cough* John Snow *cough cough*

[@alanbarnett718]

Ah, but he hasn't. Yet. (That was in the series!)

[@murigrim]

@@alanbarnett718 hmmm well that could be interested. But I'm sure he will stick to it. But I guess we got to wait and see!

[@colejames423]

murigrim - I feel like if it happens in the books (which it likely will) it will be much more hollow. They played at that a little in the show, but for the most part Jon was exactly like he was. In the books, I think it likely his resurrection will be more sinister (with a sacrifice perhaps) and his character a shell of himself to some degree, not a superhero version like when Gandalf came back

[@Mankorra_Gomorrah]

A better argument is his “mom” Caitlyn, or even the mountain coming back as the kings guard. George clearly doesn’t have a problem with brining characters back to life on principle. I sounds like his issue is more with how its handled, bringing this character back to life just to have them be the exact same as they were before, or sometimes even stronger, doesn’t land right with George. I would argue that he is intentionally bringing many of his characters back as a direct parallel to how it is handled in traditional fantasy stories, The Mountain taking on a new name, unable to speak with his own life in the hands of a scrawny nerd and a sadistic Karen. Caitlyn becoming this phantom of vengeance, all the wights that are functionally zombies. Jon most likely will come back but i doubt he’ll be anything like the Jon we knew before his death based on everything George has written.

[@murigrim]

@@Mankorra_Gomorrah and Gandalf comes back wiser, more powerful and clearly changed by the ordeal. Even frodo was more tainted and had more in common with gollum when he was healed. All I'm saying is those in glass houses shouldnt throw stones. 😂🤣

[@g3heathen209]

The last blow struck in the war of the ring was at bibo baggins door step. Where it could be said to have begun when Gandalf brought the dwarves to recruit bilbo for his first adventure.

[@landonhagan450]

Now that I think about it, the Scouring of the Shire added conflict to the falling action of Return of the King, whose final act is infamously drawn out. I've always felt that it was fine, since there were so many plot-lines that needed resolution, but I see now the necessity of the Scouring from a purely pragmatic perspective.

[@nnneh1]

The scouring of the Shire's purpose is to portray the now vastly more experienced hobbits in the context of their origins. The reader, having gone on that journey with them, shares their feeling of superiority and wisdom. It's a great trick; when you put down the book, like Pippin and Merry, you feel a couple of inches taller.

[@mayalackman7581]

I've never read GoT, probably never will because I don't like dark and gritty, but seriously just listening to George R.R. Martin talk makes me happy. He comes across so kind and grandfatherly.

[@davidjones272]

I would definitely recommend it, it isn't relentlessly dark or gritty, there is lots of optimism mixed in with the brutality and cynicism. It's a lot more optimistic than say Joe abocrombie.

[@jcarroll7371]

George has a wonderful sense of humor.

[@DarthPulven]

i also allways miss The Scouring of the Shire. when i watch the movies. it just feel so incomplete.. tom bombadil i can go without. but i miss The Scouring of the Shire... the only glimpse of it is when frodo looks at galandriels water.

[@purplexninjamom]

2:42 "I´ve always preferred grey characters to white characters" And it shows, Mr. Martin. :)

[@homoxymoronomatura]

That's racist

[@AyushSharma-tk1qq]

homoxymoronomatura tf how

[@Spherac]

@@AyushSharma-tk1qq I'm assuming that was a joke

[@markalanmcconnelljr]

i've always preferred completed sagas.

[@pretendtheresaname9213]

@@markalanmcconnelljr Lol you sound bitter. Why answering so many comments just trying to attack George? It seems like a obsession.

[@squamish4244]

When I thought Frodo may have died, I was shocked. But Tolkien didn't kill Frodo for a very good reason - it made Sam the hero and showed his devotion to Frodo, by literally carrying him up Mount Doom with the weight of the Ring pulling them both down.

[@ghugueley8341]

What a nice interview. So when is book six coming out?!?

[@jeremycraft8452]

The interviewer is wonderful.

[@gnomuka]

What a legend

[@FlanaFugue]

The Scouring of the Shire is the penultimate test for the hobbit main characters - it shows how they have changed, it demonstrates what they have become, and gives them some glory back in their own world. It is an essential part of hero mythology - the return home and proving of oneself amongst one's own people... what Bilbo was never able to really do.

[@GothicXlightning]

Martin should have been one of the dwarfs in the Hobbit trilogy movie but anyway MAY TOLKIEN'S SOUL LIVE FOREVER

[@GothicXlightning]

My favorite was hands down THORIN honestly only like dwarf i have genuinely ever liked truly i am more of an Elf and Rangers person XD but yeah also love the fact that same actor who played Thorin did voiced Trevor Belmont in the Castlevania BEAUTIFUL series

[@TomorrowWeLive]

He would have been right the shape for Bombur

[@alanbarnett718]

You mean he wasn't?

[@KillerKlipsch]

She really handled this interview well.

[@TimelordPrime]

Should have had a Starbucks cup on the table.

[@thevillageyid]

I definitely recommend reading lord of the rings every year or every few years. it always yields something different yet satisfying.

[@emmaphilo4049]

I listen to the audiobooks all the times😅😅😅

[@stevemuzak8526]

Scouring of the Shire is damn important part of the book.

[@Kyle_Spivis]

He has a Freudian slip saying edge of your sheet instead of edge of your seat. I think being on the edge of your sheet works just as well when discussing books.

[@deepforest4628]

Can I use your videos to translate them into Spanish and then upload them to the Internet?

[@andregordon2599]

George has been a Tolkien fan longer than my parents have been alive.

[@Morbidity100]

They got me interested as soon as lady said “steaks”

[@SR-ob3wn]

Jackson should have included the scouring of the shire. It was an important part of the story arc for the Hobbits and I think it was a huge mistake to not at least include it in the extended cut.

[@PanzerMold]

"We got several extra Hobbits, they could go."

[@drewlovelyhell4892]

When I watched the end of the Jackson film, I was enthusiastically anticipating the hobbits becoming mighty liberators in The Scouring Of The Shire, and was very disappointed at it's omission. But if I remember correctly, Merry and Pippin had greater participation in other battles than they did in the books,, so they each had their moments of heroism.

[@Bluemilk92]

"I figured I'd suggest that they should have a Cambal Award anthology... And they said 'hey good idea! you do it' so be careful when you suggest something." I always think about that when I read someone say "someone should make an animated version of this" or whatever.

[@MichaelHattem]

The point of the Scouring of the Shire is to show that the central story was not about the ring but instead was about the transformation of Frodo and the hobbits. Yes, they saved the world, but then they had to save their own homes, and most importantly, do it ON THEIR OWN without help from Gandalf or Aragorn, etc... Defeating Saruman and saving the Shire themselves was the real climax of their journey NOT destroying the ring (which could not be done willingly by anyone anyway).

[@YamiSpyroX]

George Keeps bringing up how much he read Lord of the Rings of kid while I'm sitting here wondering if he ever read RedWall when he was younger.

[@budistman12]

Fuck yeaaa

[@JarthenGreenmeadow]

Redwall is the best. Lord Brocktree was my favorite book for a long time. Honey Badger doesnt give a shit!

[@ericstoverink6579]

Pippin was originally supposed to be killed in the last battle at the black gate. It was C.S. Lewis that talked him out of it.

[@blindthrall]

Steaks? Now you've got his attention.

[@guillaumelevasseur277]

Lord of the rings has an ending.... so GRR... you're up, try something.

[@DLLW93]

ASOIAF isn't the only thing GRRM writes or has written

[@guillaumelevasseur277]

@@DLLW93 I know.

[@cool06alt]

Frankly Tale of Dunk and Egg is the only piece that i care about in his works.

[@TheEarlofBronze1]

Burn

[@marcusfraser2790]

@@cool06alt damn I loved those books!

[@julii109]

Gandalf came back because he indeed can't die and still had to finish the task given to him by the Valar.

[@gawainethefirst]

I’ll see your “feint killing of characters,” and raise you “killing them off for real.”

[@goonzalo_0948]

I think George should write a story about the rise and fall of Valyria. Not as Fire and Blood (wikipedia mode), is more like a children story. It would be very difficult doing it while writing other books but it would be interesting

[@oliviawilliams6204]

Gz_09 like a children story?? Would be hard, Valyrian was a slaver empire

[@goonzalo_0948]

@@oliviawilliams6204 yes, it is true. But I have wrongly expressed the idea. George shouldn't write about Valyria as he did with Fire and Blood. I think it would be better if George do it like a storyteller as he did with ASOIAF. But we know that it's impossible 😔

[@sernoddicusthegallant6986]

Well now, lets not overwhelm him with stuff to do since hes struggling to finish his main series

[@mickeye6428]

Valyria isn't the third reich. It's rise and fall aren't the same story. They are centuries apart. The rise alone would take several volumes.

[@SuperShaka71]

Is there a video of this complete interview?

[@justinchalifoux4424]

Let’s hope he gave the amount of passion here to elden rings lore

[@NathanDav42]

The Scouring of the Shire definitely works for the return of pretty much any formerly idealistic soldier from a brutal war - especially to Tolkien, as he was an officer who believed in ‘Britannia’ before the war and then came home to find out that what he believed he fought for had actually died before the war even ended (if it ever existed at all). The disillusionment of returning soldiers from war is a real and often heart-breaking thing...especially minority soldiers returning from risking all and often being greatly wounded in body and/or soul in wars to find out they were still viewed as less-than-full-citizens when they return from all the horror they endured. This was a reality that confronted British and French colonial troops and German/Austrian Jewish troops in the Great War to African American troops returning from that war, World War II, Vietnam...actually every war in US history But on a film-making level, Return of the King is already 3 1/2 hours long and it has always been mocked for having too many endings. The realities of adapting the 3 books into movies often unfortunately led to many good things (like the Boromir in Osgiliath sequence from The Two Towers) not making it into the theatrical films, so making a 4-hr (or more) Return of the King by incorporating the Scouring - something that is all falling action anyway, as the climax of the story ends with the destruction of the Ring - is just unrealistic.

[@goethe3116]

What are you talking about? LOTR is meant to be a a mythology for England it isn't meant for you Americans lol

[@NathanDav42]

Yousuf Farah Yeah, I get that. But my degree is in history, so I was pointing out that the disillusion British soldiers/officers like Tolkien experienced when coming home after The Great War is universal and accessible to all.

[@Kriegerdammerung]

Who is the orange lady? she's smart, a good hostess for an interview

[@drewlovelyhell4892]

Orange lady good.

[@blueeyed5074]

Especially when Grrm talks about murder and she cuts him off... Great lady. :))

[@elderofzion]

in the end nothing much was said about Scouring of the Shire but i guess the video needed a title

[@jwildy2428]

Weird people saying the reasons how Gandalf came back or didn't actually die as if Tolkien had no choice in his book haha

[@greg_mca]

@pyropulse I can't tell if you're just buying into a modern constructed mythology or if you haven't recognised that what you described is just the framing device because it made the story easier to write from Tolkien's perspective

[@PrzybyszzMatplanety]

Of course he didn't have a choice. Gandalf and Gandalf the White is a type of Jesus and Jesus the Resurrected. He had to die, there were no other option.

[@rcschmidt668]

It is not about the scouring of the shire but the cleansing of it. And there was a long time for Frodo and Sam to chronicle the journey before the story ended. It was not a sad ending. It was a closing of life and sailing west.

[@shawnanderson3544]

If prof.J.R.R.T was here I would settle for nothing less than 3 hours of pure debate on fantasy and talking about both universes from those 2 in a room with cigars or pipes just geeking out

[@Galvion1980]

The interviewer really knows her stuff.

[@1rishpotat0]

"I've always prefered gray characters." Creates the White Walkers, White Rat, White Harbors.

[@atharkausar8563]

G R E Y W O R M

[@purefoldnz3070]

The final battle with the White Walkers where there are no stakes almost feels like a big middle finger to George. How fat Sam survived no one knows.