ROASTING Fourth Wing's Sequel IRON FLAME (Rebecca Yarros)

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[@PokemonkaDub]

I love that the thumbnail makes it read "Iron Lame"

[@whateverperson2006]

Probably because of the way Katie is placed on the thumbnail. She covers the "F" almost perfectly.

[@CameronKujo]

@@whateverperson2006good.

[@whateverperson2006]

@@CameronKujo I like listening to roasts of bad books while crocheting.

[@studmuffin-o5i]

@@whateverperson2006you don’t say.

[@haggisa]

Heh, never noticed that before. Here for a third or fourth comfort relisten. 😁

[@fukyomammason]

Books like this are for people who want the same head empty enemies to lovers plot spoonfed to them with a slightly different veneer. They want the same unseasoned chicken cutlet for every meal with a slightly different canned sauce poured over it so they can pretend it’s a different dish.

[@vinny_s]

I couldn't have described it better myself 😭

[@mel4957]

and it's not even actual enemies to lovers, just vibes and not even the barest thought put into them

[@CorgiiTube]

I so agree. And there’s nothing wrong with someone wanting that I think… but when they then go rate it 5 stars.. that’s a problem. You can enjoy something and understand it is objectively bad

[@joyc.e.7511]

​@@CorgiiTubemy thoughts exactly. That's how I feel about people who defend certain villains. Like it's ok to like the character. Stop bendi v over backwards to excuse their war crimes...

[@LailaNight97]

Yes that me and this book didn’t have the enemies to lovers plot….

[@whatareyousayinggirl]

EDS-er here. One of the saddest and most dangerous parts about the very shitty disability rep in these books is that it's being marketted as and being presented by the author as "empowering" "inspiring" and "an exploration of EDS" which tells people [who don't know any better] that this depiction is somewhat accurate and ASPIRATIONAL. Violet is a character with EDS more outside of the text than inside the text -- she is hardly ever hindered by her pain or other symptoms, and in fact, her pain and other symptoms (like dislocating joints) become a kind of disability superpower (a problematic trope) because she is apparently soooooo much better at withstanding beatings and torture than everyone around her. Chronic pain *can* give you a higher pain tolerance, but the misunderstanding i'm seeing all over the place in regards to this book is that that is the default assumption, when in reality, a lot of chronic pain sufferers actually have a lower pain threshold. If you're in pain every day all the time, you can get used to that, but that doesn't mean you automatically have a 130% capacity for pain if you're already using up 30% of your capacity day-to-day. This misbelief actually affects us in hospitals and other medical settings. I've been denied pain relief and medical assistance for exactly this reason. It's also extremely offputting that the couple in this book are never discussing her bodily experiences, wants, or needs surrounding her disability. Hell, Violet herself never even thinks about it. So, how is she actually taking her disability into account and making decisions informed by that? There's a sex scene in this book that happens very soon after she's injured, and Xaden bascially starts getting so horny that he warns her if they continue, he might hurt her because what he wants to do isn't going to be gentle AND SHE'S STILL HEALING. Violet just goes "no I want it rough," and so they do it... and the fact that she's still healing is just like a nebulous thing of, was she really still healing? was he just making assumptions about her body/capacity/ability in that moment? was this a manifestation of her internalised ableism? We just don't know. There are so many moments like this where there's no way to tell what she can/can't actually do, what she is/isn't actually experiencing, what she really does/doesn't need. It makes reading these books so frustrating because there's no way to understand her disbaility as a part of her because Yarros just picks and chooses when it comes up, when it will impact Violet, and when it'll be a non-issue. It's especially insane when you read Yarros's interview she did for Health (and indeed several other interviews) where she talks about how we navigate the world with EDS, how our every decision is informed by it etc. and yet she wrote this? why? Where is the "power fantasy" in watching a character take no pain relief, not even suffer through any of the symptoms that would make her actually representative of EDS, and not get any support from her partner? It's not representation at this point. Like you can't say it's EDS when it doesn't walk, talk, or sound like it.

[@Solarstormflare]

i couldnt read more than half the first book so i salute you for managing to persevere through it

[@mikankitsune0440]

I 100% agree with everything you said. I have EDS too, and the consistent pain you learn how to cope with, but it's still debilitating when you're ribs or knees or shoulder come out of alignment. Rough and tumble work like what Violet does would have her in a messy situation.

[@missanthropy6174]

I have EDS and I actually enjoyed the book. I preordered the sequel and I enjoyed that too. I have many criticisms of the book, many of them are the same as yours, however, I still think that this is decent representation. I LOVE fantasy. So much. I read the hobbit and eragon when I was 7 and I’ve been hooked ever since. Every year for my birthday my Opa would build another shelf for me to put my books on. I am also an athlete. As a kid noticed for being “naturally flexible” I got put in ballet and gymnastics. Then I got tall and ballet became my path. I had to work 3x harder to to get as strong as my peers. I was also constantly slipping joints and when I experienced a 10in growth spirt in 1 1/2 years, I started pulling muscles. My ballet career ended 6 months after I had started dancing professionally. An accident happened in rehearsal. My shoulders dislocated, my collarbone broke, and my back broke. My body was never the same. I was finally diagnosed with EDS 3 years ago and I’m 26 now. As an athlete i felt with so much cruelty or ridicule for not building strength like my peers. Didn’t matter how hard I worked or how many extra hours I put in, I was weaker than I should be. I had a teacher that would hit my leg with a stick because I had not lifted it high enough, even though I could go into an over split if I was on the ground. I also was reprimanded for wearing too much “junk” in class because I’d wear wraps and leg warmers to protect my body. I liked the rep of my disability in fourth wing because I’m an athlete with EDS and I love fantasy and I get to read a protagonist who struggles with so many of the things I struggle with. She gets insulted and shamed for what her body can’t do. She has to work twice as hard to be half as strong as her peers. Sometimes in the narrative, her pain actually does get ignored. I found out a few months ago that I actually broke a bone that was dismissed as inflammation when I was younger and that causes problems in my range of motion. Fourth wing leaves a lot to be desired in its disability rep, but that doesn’t mean it’s hollow. And in a fantasy series where the protagonist, no matter their racial, gender, ability, educational, or religious background, is allowed at least some exceptionalism and plot armor, I like the rep of my disability.

[@fornamnefternamn1532]

@@missanthropy6174 I am very sorry to read that you have been through all this hard things. I wish there was better representation than these books. OK I haven't read them, and I will not, not after the reviews I've seen (these ones, and @Reads with Rachel), but I didn't really know about EDS before hearing about these books, so I cannot be all that mad about them. Still, I am glad I haven't read them, because I am afraid that my understanding of EDS would be faulty, and I appreciate the insight of @Unresolved Textual Tension and @Reads with Rachel, and comments like yours, that teach me so much about it. So, thank you for that!

[@teslashark]

It felt like Yarros did not understand what's good about How To Train Your Dragon

[@mst3kharris]

For the nth time: being a star-crossed lover means that your love is destined to end in tragedy and pain. It may mean that you and your love are meant to be together, but you’re only meant to be together so it’ll be more tragic when you’re torn apart. The stars are crossed against you. Do I need to make this a PSA? Because I will die on this hill.

[@a.gunter2893]

Thank you. The prologue to Romeo and Juliet clearly says, "a pair of star-crossed lovers take their life." It's a tragedy.

[@mst3kharris]

@@a.gunter2893 I am planted, nay, rooted atop _”Romeo and Juliet_ is a tragedy, not a satire, goddamn it” hill. One of the reasons I don’t think it’s a satire is that Shakespeare had already written a play about how love makes people (not just teenagers!) stupid, and it’s titled _A Midsummer Night’s Dream._

[@a.gunter2893]

@@mst3kharris Yes! It's a solid point that can be backed up with evidence. Since Shakespeare was a classics nerd, he understood the requirements of tragedy, which was that things get worse for the characters. Dying at the end is the hallmark of a tragedy and the classic requirements of one. I will join you on the "Romeo and Juliet is a tragedy, not a satire" hill. I also roll my eyes every time someone says it's a romance.

[@mst3kharris]

@@a.gunter2893 I’m going to push back a little on the idea it’s not a romance, because I think that at least part of the tragedy lies in buying in to the idea that Romeo and Juliet do love each other. I think that assuming their love is ideal or perfect or how love should be is a mistake, though. Their love is too entwined with their tragedy.

[@mst3kharris]

@@a.gunter2893 also part of what I find bewildering about the idea that _Romeo and Juliet_ is a satire is that I can’t make out what’s being satirized. People would say “teenagers in love” but how was that something that needed to be taken down a notch? And is the joke really meant to be, “Hahaha, teenagers. They’re so silly and prone to letting their feelings run away with them that sometimes they kill themselves! It’s funny!”

[@redjacket2486]

"does the hill behind your house compare to Everest?" bars

[@cursedcontent4207]

*Oh and also* Violet's whole thing about "This college is supposed to weed out the weak and watching my friends die made me a better rider" pisses me off. The sheer lack of self awareness. Like three days later and I'm still vomiting over it.

[@TuesdaysArt]

Fantasy eugenics is fun! /s

[@GatekeeperGuardian-wv3cd]

Oh I loved that part simply because of how much of a hypocrite it makes Rebecca Yarros look like after she claimed "All my stories are about how war is bad"

[@Caeilia]

To me it felt so out of character and like a clap back directly from the author regarding the cristicism

[@CoolGuy-th7bl]

A lot of these romantic fantasy books feel like they were written by someone who has heard about the fantasy genre but never actually read any fantasy novels.

[@jasminv8653]

I think you might be onto something

[@lia.g9796]

or someone who appreciates fantasy simply on an aesthetic level and not how it can be written as a reflection of the real world. The problem is they're not digging deeper into the fantasy aspects, rendering it all meaningless. That's the problem with a lot of mainstream YA releases lately. It's all purely for the aesthetic with no substance-which unfortunately sells

[@FaiAshland]

Yeah the world building is atrocious and at times lazy, makes me second guess why I'm studying how empires work if this tripe gets published

[@eveellisen]

The way booktok books are getting written reminds me of that whole ecosystem out there teaching people with no skill in business how to get rich quick doing, like, drop shipping. There's a formula or a hack to exploit, no actual brains needed to create a well-made product because they know so many people will happily consume garbage these days.

[@thedeepfriar745]

One of the biggest regrets of the internet is that any talentless writer can get a book self published.

[@studmuffin-o5i]

⁠@@thedeepfriar745self publishing isn’t the problem. SP books tend to be better than traditionally published.

[@dalekrenegade2596]

​@@studmuffin-o5i Ah kinda like the quality if indie video games in comparison to those made by most modern Triple A companies.

[@hatchet1013]

Im sure its been mentioned, but to answer Katies question abiut why the usage of Scots Gaelic is a big deal: England went to great lengths to stamp out any culture and language that wasn't English. Welsh, Scots Gaelic, Irish Gaelic, Manx, ect were languages that were basically made illegal and the over arching government worked very hard to eliminate them. Thats why people are so protective of their languages

[@ABookIsHobSession]

Maria: Why is humanity so bad at writing sex scenes? Me: Because most people who write them probably aren't having good sex. 😂

[@marocat4749]

Or because they dont want goofd sex scenes, they want porn. I dont shame horny smut for its sake, but fantasy should at least to try have a sensual side to it. Try! If you write bad sex, at least have an emotional sensual connection. Or give it any flimsy in universe thematic point, whatever. anything for the character.

[@pippaschroeder9660]

Fade to black exists people. You don’t have to write sex scenes if you don’t want to and if you don’t feel like you’ll write it well.

[@fukyomammason]

@@pippaschroeder9660This book has nothing else to offer though.

[@atrophiedup2myeyes]

Makes sense. 🤣

[@angryotter9129]

@@pippaschroeder9660 bold of you to assume they would be self aware enough to realize they aren’t good at writing it.

[@futchslug]

Slight correction, the language she took words from is actually Scottish Gaelic, pronounced “GAL-ick,” while the language pronounced “GAY-lick” (😅) is the Irish language. love the vid though, just wanted to clarify! Edit: tbh the issue to me of her mispronunciation/misuse, other than it being her using an endangered language with no concern for it, is mostly that it is so indicative to me of the larger problem with her work, which is that it’s surface level and empty of any substance. Literally, “this would be cool maybe” and then no further thought, research, or development of ideas lmfao

[@Emery_Pallas]

Technically but Gaelic in Ireland is very rarely if ever used to describe the language (typically Gaelic refers to a variant of football) We would typically call the language either Irish or by its Irish name Gaeilge (Gale-geh)

[@natesmith6871]

I find it kinda funny that Fourth Wing has no problem killing their academy cadets left and right, yet even Lightlark understands that "fewer people means less power."

[@DarwinRoger893]

I love that there’s a war happening and the publishers thought it was okay to let Yarros write the infamous “watching people die made me a better rider” scene and put it in the book. And by love, I mean I hate it.

[@HaleyJeanASMR]

the way Will critiques books + their writing is soo hilariously profound. he had so many solid points in this video and articulated them SO well i was constantly laughing out loud. “Yarros knows how to ape things other books do but doesn’t understand why they do them.” YES YES YES!! extremely specific fap fantasy realness 👏👏

[@cursedcontent4207]

Xaden's race is "bronzed": Ambiguously brown enough to look "exotic" but not brown enough to be "unattractive".

[@VeckSMWC]

At least with fanfiction it actually makes some sense to advertise stories with their "featured tropes" because of the medium's conventions; it's expected that you already have a foundational understanding of the characters, setting, etc. You're likely reading fanfiction to explore these characters you already know in specific and new scenarios. Advertising original fiction with these same tropes feels to me like putting the cart before the horse? Enemies to lovers, slow burn, and other things like that are interesting (to me) because of the stuff AROUND THEM. A focus on the trope first and context second leads to hallow, empty characters and worldbuilding that's surface-deep.

[@user-te5po4bu8o]

Here’s how it should have gone: Violet is hurt and upset because Xaden didn’t tell her these things (because of her past she reacts badly when she’s left out of things by people she trusts). She knows she shouldn’t be, that it’s not fair of her, but she can’t get over her feeling of being left out, and it puts a strain on their relationship, forcing them apart. Xaden, wanting to end this, comes to tell her everything. Violet realizes at the last second that she’s a huge liability because of Dain and her mother. For the kingdoms, for everyone’s lives, she sacrifices the relationship to keep everyone safe. Xaden, being someone who already does that himself, loves her even more now. Idk why Yarros didn’t play it that way. It aligns with the characters and the theme, it’s dramatic, it’s starcrossed, it would have been better.

[@GatekeeperGuardian-wv3cd]

Would have worked especially well with Xaden becoming a venin at the end just to hammer home the point for those who need it spelled out for them further.

[@TheAquamarine4]

You know that would require Yarros to have the creativity to think that up in the first place

[@Dani_77709]

Iron Flame came out six months after Fourth Wing. No author can write a decent book in that time UNLESS they had already written it before book 1 came out.

[@ilikecookies9796]

Sure, no author could put out a decent book in that short a time, but this certainly ISN'T decent.

[@dalekrenegade2596]

​@@ilikecookies9796 Yeah avoid ANY book series that barely has months between entries.

[@TheGeorgeD13]

To be fair, she had signed a contract for a trilogy with her publisher, so she almost certainly had most of the sequel written by the point the first one came out, but yes, still not a lot of time.

[@ShiniGuraiJoker]

King writes multiple books in a year. Several writers do, actually. I have just started the Foruth Wing and I do enjoy parts where some other parts could have been polished more.

[@meiimacca4054]

I mean fourth wing wasn't all that great either

[@futchslug]

Re: disability rep, i also have EDS & it truly sucks to see it represented so shallowly. Like thanks for the message that if i just "try hard enough" I'll magically be able to do the same things as able-bodied people without devestating my health so bad I have to be bed ridden for months lmaoo. Also like the history of disabled people in general is one of Making Things, taking what was made for able bodied people and changing it to fit our needs. How cool would it have been to see Violet make or modify things to accommodate her needs (ie. A harness, a different way of fighting, etc) and see part of that real history on page? But instead we get truly such toxic and lackluster rep.... yarros needs to spend some time unlearning ableism because it's obvious to me she hasn't put that work in.

[@krishnahemminger]

Worst part is she has EDS according to her but put this out in such a way to promote toxic representation.

[@GatekeeperGuardian-wv3cd]

@@krishnahemminger Honestly I think the reason for that is that Rebecca realized that having a disability doesn't mean you can write a disability. Red Tower simply never bothered editing her and helping her write a character with her disability properly because they knew Booktok wouldn't care.

[@haggisa]

I had a thought, that it would have been cool, if Violet, at some point, invented a saddle for her dragon and one of those notes Yarros clumsily included at the top of each chapter was a chronicle written in later years, which stated that Violet Sorrengail pioneered the use of saddles, which later became the norm, thus underlying that her being forced to accommodate her disability actually ended up helping all riders.

[@dirtyprancing5930]

I agree with your premise but those examples, I’m not sure if you’ve read the books because she does both of those things. I do think it’s toxic that she has her constantly “put her pain in a box” like that’s what disabled people should/can do. Like, if my arm was broken, you wouldn’t tell me to lift this table and there’s something wrong with me mentally if I can’t

[@strigiformthunderstorm]

Disabled readers also internalize ableism in text. I have EDS and still struggle with anxiety about how I'm "faking it" and have walked off dislocations without a word due to narratives like this influencing how I think. In a society that others disabled people it's a lifelong journey to unlearn it. Thank you as always for a conscientious and fabulously entertaining review!

[@noditschi]

I know people with chronic migraines that could mentally suffer from reading this book... So I can only try to imagine how an EDS-er would feel.

[@deedaceopondo3520]

I spent 28 hours listening to the audiobook so that I could listen to this review and validate my vitriol towards the whole story. Popcorn ready...

[@TheSlurpy11]

the issue with Scottish Gaelic was also that it's an endangered language with a history of erasure, and so to have an American author bastardise the language and misrepresent is it felt like more erasure

[@shangc2781]

100% people don't realise that Ireland, Wales and Scotland were the beta tests for English colonialism and are all struggling to keep their cultures and histories alive.

[@hatchet1013]

And then there's the theme of colonization and literally erasing entire cultures and languages from their history!?!?!?!??!!!!!!!

[@visttia]

So, I've been on the fence about this pronunciation thing, because "oh come on, it's fantasy", but then I realised how annoyed I get when people mispronounce Polish words and don't even look them up, so I can't even imagine how frustrating it is has to be in case of a endangered language. It's so disrespectful.

[@lanterns_glow]

This is like a rotting onion- there are many layers... And they all stink

[@DefaultSeaTurtle]

I listen to you all at work. I can't express how grateful I am to listen to a 2 hour long review of a book I never read as a sequel to another 2 hour long review of a book I also never read. ❤

[@truthhurts5448]

Love the haircut Will. You look at least 57% more rugged and 75% more handsome. 😊

[@cricketcalin]

1:08:09 to paraphrase Dan Olsen: it's fine that he's a dick, so long as it goes somewhere. Xaden can be an overprotective stifling asshole where Violet points out he's acting like Dain, but it needs to have a point. Which honestly would have required Dains overprotectiveness to have a point and it doesn't beyond making Dain look bad.

[@caitlinfitzgibbon9410]

I'm gonna argue the Gaelic names are not nitpicky and are valid criticism. Because the author did not just make up words within the Gaelic framework, she used existing words and places. She did change the spelling a bit of course, but it's clear what things are. Her dragon for example Tairneanach is clearly meant to invoke Tír na nÓg, her chosen pronunciation being the same as how you say this phrase. And Tír na nÓg is a sacred place in Irish mythology. The point is she took things without paying any respect, the literal definition of cultural appropriation. It's also not consistent, which is annoying. If you're gonna appropriate my culture, can't you at least do it correctly?

[@mst3kharris]

When I still thought the dragon’s name was Tír na nÓg, it irritated me enormously that the dragon’s nickname was Tairn. I’ve been plugging away at Irish on Duolingo for nearly two years. I’m by no means an expert, but I do know Tír na nÓg means “Land of Youth, where “tír” is land, and “óg” means youth. (The n in nÓg is because of the a in na.). The na is, I think, part of the way Irish assembles _____ of the ______ phrases. Anyway, what annoyed me was that “Tairn” made no sense as a nickname because it was made up of Tír and the n from na. It would be like nicknaming the US president Joeb, where the beginning sound of the following word got stapled on in a way that would never actually happen. I’m still suspicious of Tairn as a nickname because I don’t know how Tairneanach is derived. Anyway, thank you for coming to my self-indulgent Ted Talk.

[@caitlinfitzgibbon9410]

@@mst3kharris Oh that passive aggressive owl, haha It don't make no sense, especially when you consider that Tairneanach would be pronounced more like "Tor-nyan-ahh if the language were represented correctly. Which even sounds sorta okay, but no. She had to do whatever this mess is. The least she coulda did was use the many free online dictionaries for anything within the gaelic language family. Or the many content creators on youtube who teach you how to speak these languages. Again, for free. The least she coulda did was try. At all.

[@robertborland5083]

@@mst3kharris I believe it is from the Scottish Gaelic "tàirneanach" (pronounced /ˈtʰaːrˠɲənəx/) meaning "thunder" (cognate of the Irish "toirneach"), but even then I find the choice of language, nickname, and invocation of mythology by Yarros to be incredibly irresponsible at best. Not only are there basic grammatical mistakes - as expected from someone writing in a language they do not know - but languages exist in cultural contexts where something someone might say in one language would not translate into another. I wish Yarros at least had someone familiar with Scottish Gaelic language & culture proofread the draft prior to publishing it to point out such implications & errors in the text. The comments here seem to have put more thought into the use of Scottish Gaelic in the books than Yarros herself did.

[@mst3kharris]

@@robertborland5083 I find her abuse of Scottish Gaelic especially abhorrent since it’s even more endangered than Irish.

[@robertborland5083]

@@mst3kharris 100%. Somehow, Yarros's shirking of responsibility is even worse than anticipated.

[@logandevereux5076]

So this has been probably one of the worst years for me mentally I’ve ever had, but discovering you guy’s podcast and getting to hear new perspectives on books I’m curious about has really helped me a lot!! So please keep up with the amazing content I love all three of you guys and your friendships! ☺️💕

[@pippaschroeder9660]

Sending lots of love and good vibes 😊

[@Ongaliman]

Most of romantasy books have the same problem - the fantasy aspect is an esthetic choice. It has no connection to the genre of fantasy at all. Sometimes I open a book labeled "high fantasy" and the only thing that is high in there - sexual tension between main characters. With high level of borderline r*pe scenes and obsession. It's Danielle Steel novels wrapped in a foil of fantasy. Or even 50 shades.

[@CrisM779]

You know what would have been interesting... if instead of stupid Jack NoOne, the bad guy would have been the king's elder son... then it would have made sense for them to try to resurrect him and they would be more lenient towards him even if he was a murderous psycho. Then it would have been more interesting for the youngest prince to come to the school and there could have been an intrigue - as in they need him, but could they trust him or not? This is ofc just a thought from a pleb, but in my humble opinion it would have helped made sense of some things and could have added some drama without the constant back and forth between Violet and Xaden for no damn reason. Also, super toxic to want your partner to tell you 100% even if it doesn't pertain to you. I know one couple where the woman demanded that of the guy and he complied and it resulted in blowing up every other relationship that guy had because the woman weaponized the information to cause arguments. It's just crazy to demand that of anyone.

[@Feejakka]

Just gotta say, the vibe between the 3 of you is classy and such fun. 😜 unlike so many podcasts, you don’t talk over the top of each other but give each other space to talk, respecting each other’s opinions while treating disagreements with a sense of humour which does so much for this podcast. Respect! Once again I enjoyed tuning in for a good roast. But I’m looking forward to when your hands aren’t tied by the algorithms & you have more freedom to review more books you actually like/admire/recommend, even if they’re sci-fi or obscure or older (your Persuasion review is my fav to this day; also Uprooted). I learn the most from the stuff you guys love. Anyhow here’s my contribution towards the algorithm 😂 keep doing whatcha doing!

[@gryranfelt5473]

Agree!! I really liked those two vids as well

[@nethla314]

My work had a secret santa a couple of days ago and one of my colleagues gave another one of my colleagues this book and lots of them started gushing about it and I was like that side-eye meme, knowing I had this video for comfort 😂

[@Artbyhurricanyounot]

My favorite part about the pronunciation debacle is that everyone who speaks Scottish Gaelic all saw that video and collectively went ✨no✨ Edit: also hate how wyverns are separate from dragons as if they’re not dragons themselves just with two legs 🙄 so stupid

[@noditschi]

Is it available on KZbin?

[@lukeari9890]

Hey, look, dragon lore can be whatever you want it to be. That's what makes dragons cool, you get to make up the science; you can have wyverns just be dragons like in GoT, or have them be something different and specific. I personally thought wyverns being artificial approximations of dragons one of the few neat things about the book.

[@fz_dracohart1255]

Nah I prefer dragons and wyverns to be separated sorry not sorry. I always have personal view wyvern should be classification of lesser cousin of dragons either natural lesser dragonoid or artifical pserudodragon. Before Game of Thrones bring the popularity of two legs and wings "dragons", wyverns are specific for reptiles with two legs and wings with poisononus stinger and I like it. Bring diversity to magical fauna too, not just people! Maybe among the flaming hot doodoo it's the only good thing I can found from this book tho.

[@catalinacaro8183]

You should see the GOT people yapping about how the dragons are not dragons buy wyverns and shouldn't be called dragons, when in the books is EXTREMELY CLEAR the difference between dragons and wyverns in ASOIAF world is that wyverns are small, live in packs and don't spit fire, while dragons are big, live solitary lives and spit fire. But people yap for yapping. 😂😂😂

[@johnnyritenbaugh1214]

This book wishes so bad that it was How To Train Your Dragon... Hiccup/Toothless/Astrid>every bland character in FW/IW.

[@skalliedA]

I pressed like, but only because Will is such a snooty theatre kid when he didn't like a book and that's really funny to me.

[@DoctorJellicle]

On the topic of how Xaden and Dane are treated with being Inntinnsic: what about Nora, the one who can tell if you're lying? That is basically the same as Xaden in terms of proximity to reading minds. So why is she totally fine too? Ohh because Rebecca just makes shit up as she goes and then doesn't think about it further

[@mialia-u7v]

The mind reader shit is by far the most ridiculous thing in this book. How is Violet less dangerous than a person who can simply hear some else's thoughts. She could one day walk into a room foll of officials and roast everyone alive. Yet she gets to live. I don't understand

[@constellationno5112]

my pipe dream is unresolved textual tension my favorite podcast making an episode about a book ive written

[@hannao4093]

Will is hilarious normally but especially in this video his humour is just top-tier

[@mikankitsune0440]

As someone who has EDS, I have constant pain, and my knees and ribs regularly dislocate. We need better rep for our community and Yarros who supposedly has it herself failed to do so. This depiction is anything but aspirational or accurate.

[@dotkiarika1026]

"does the hill behind your house compare to Everest?" LMAOO BARS!! They are not even in the same plane of existence

[@JeanetHenning]

I know the "Ahhhhhhhhh" in your thumbnail was one of horror but the one I let our when I saw said thumbnail was one of happiness.

[@moul4519]

I'm a 49-year-old writer. I'm currently writing my first novel “The Iron Badger.” I bought this book and the sequel and wished I never had. This book was the biggest waste of time. Waste of my time! There is no heart, rushed, and way too much sex. None of it made any sense. I am a dyslexic author. I was called out for less as a writer. But this book sold over two million copies! Are you shitting me? I would been made fun of I posted this on Wattpad. I don't know.

[@ishani1274]

Just coming here to stan Maria's hair at 37:09 with the undo and the front bits swooping down! 😍

[@LithoCat]

I've been holding my breath that you guys would do this! I could not bring myself to read it, but knew I'd get some good reviews to binge on here

[@heIImiina]

me watching another two hour long video of a book I've never read nor have any plan to read

[@kweeniepiez]

the most disgusting thing was how her friend, the Scribe, who uses sign language isn't allowed to... emote. which is half of sign language

[@argbarbosa]

12:16 As a bilingual person with dual citizenship, I’d like to argue that it’s NOT nitpicky at all. Taking something from a different culture (like a language) and using it toward your own means is appropriation. Gaelic was a language banned from usage, its native speakers oppressed. RY taking words from an actual language with living, native speakers, without honoring the pronunciation is disrespectful at the VERY least.

[@teehee-yn3jh]

Liking and commenting to do my part as a broke college student!!! But also, ppl don't look at the subscribe tab???? Is that something only Will and me do apparently???

[@futchslug]

did Yarros mean to name her fictional country after the actual real place in Spain ?? and its actual historic Kingdom of Navarre? why not just lean into that or come up with her own shit instead of randomly inserting scots Gaelic phrases and words? her world-building is truly so confused on so many levels 🙄🙄😭😭

[@mercycunningham2813]

I named a country in a strorry I was working on dracia (the country of Dragonriders) only to realize later it's in Greece. I was fourteen. 😂 This happens all the time to authors. Some of us Google all names and do reworks if we find we made an ooopsie.

[@jasminv8653]

​@@mercycunningham2813 I just reallyy don't think she accidentally reinvented Navarre and Basque country in such close contact nor did she accidentaly combine them with words taken from Scottish Gaelic. She looked at a map and went on google translate on purpose, but with no care for what she was doing because the Basque and the Gaelic-speakers are white so their local minority cultures deserve no respect in an American worldview.

[@dagmarbelesova4284]

​@@mercycunningham2813But that makes sense as it's presumably derived from 'dragon' so I can see how that could be just a coincidence. Navarre isn't - it's just a cool sounding European place name. So is Montserrat ,also a real place. Though my favourite is Cygnisen, one of the borderlands, which in my head canon is a land populated exclusively by swans.

[@mercycunningham2813]

@@dagmarbelesova4284 Note to my self: Write a fantasy story were people ride gigantic killer swans that is not Nils Holgerson (Geese) and don't name the Swans One, Two and Three. 🤣 But I may know we're that Navarre comes from. There is that 80's low fantasy movie with romance Ladyhawk. She is a hawk by day he is a wolf by night. (The mission: Uncross the stars for the lovers. ) The male protagonists name is Navar(re). Which makes sense since it's probably a southern European setting. (French, spanisch and Italian names.) But I can see hearing a cool name in a fantasy movie, not beeing European and not realizing it's not a fantasy name and using it in your fantasy book. That's why one of my advices for new writers is: Google your shi*.

[@dagmarbelesova4284]

@@mercycunningham2813 Hahaha I'd read it. Killer swans sound terrifying - like geese on steroids :D I feel like I've definitely come across Navarre and derivations in other fantasy works, though nothing specific comes to mind. It's just one of those words I suppose.

[@DMurphysLore]

Apparently I watched this before, and I remember the opening section, at least, but for the life of me I remember absolutely nothing about the actual book, which a: What a good excuse to watch it again, and b: How bad is Iron Flame that every detail of it slipped from my mind within a matter of months.

[@visenya8]

One of the things I hate about being in Violet's head all the time (other than the fact that she is very annoying and unlikable character) is the fact that she can only talk to 2 dragons. So it feels like in this book who is supposed to be about dragons we only have access to 2 and one of them is sleeping all the time.

[@theblob4741]

I want to be an author. So I write lol. I used to ALWAYS want to write romance, but since I’ve gotten older, I’ve realized I wouldn’t be able to do that effectively and like the idea of platonic friendships more. That way if I ever do publish and my characters have good platonic chemistry, my readers will ship it mwuahahahah.

[@TuesdaysArt]

While listening to these dragon book reviews, I realized I should look up the effects space travel might have on someone with arthritis in case I need that for a character I'm writing. I also realized that me having that realization is more thought than Rebecca ever gave towards her representation and it made me sad. I don't get why some authors are so opposed to doing research on the thing they’re trying to represent. Even something like LHON (which is relatively obscure)is easily searchable. [Side note: when depicting a relationship obscure diagnosis/condition/disability, it's even more important that you don't screw up because you will probably be the first place people will learn about it from. I try to take precautions with my representation in general, but I feel a lot of pressure to write my character with LHON well because I know it isn't represented in fiction very often and I don't want the only representation of it to be awful.] Edit: I was unaware that this was an Own Voices story, though I feel like having the condition doesn’t exempt you from doing research on it. You might have your own experiences (which can be useful to pull from for your writing), but your own experiences aren't reflective of everyone with that condition (especially if there's subcategories or different degrees of severity, like EDS). Also, experiencing something doesn’t necessarily mean you understand the "why" behind it. For example, I am autistic. Although I like to pull from my own experiences for autistic characters, I know that on its own isn't enough to write autistic characters well because autism is a spectrum (and writing a bunch of self inserts is boring, let's be real). Including experiences from my autistic friends, other first-hand experiences I find, etc. allows me to write a wider range of autistic characters and better represent it. Hearing other people talk about their experiences has also helped me learn about myself because it can be isolating when you're surrounded by neurotypical/able-bodied people. You start seeing your symptoms as a personal failing rather than something that's "normal" for people with your diagnosis and has a reasoning behind it. Internalized ableism is a thing and it’s a huge problem. I've been trying to unlearn it since high school.

[@dalekrenegade2596]

Found anything interesting in regards to arthritis in space?

[@asteridshydrangea-jt2hf]

Regarding being opposed to research, aside from some authors who are notorious for not wanting to listen to editors etc, one of the things I’ve heard from people who work in the industry in other roles is concern over publishing pushing books especially from young authors (with the novelty of youthful accomplishment as a selling point) out in essentially a content mill stream without giving it the time edits and drafts it badly needed. I’ve also heard older, more established authors talk quietly about getting no help with hiring fact checkers and doing their own PR. People aren’t exempt from responsibility, but the publishing industry is also a mess in many ways.

[@asteridshydrangea-jt2hf]

@@dalekrenegade2596I don’t know about pre-existing arthritis, but space travel (microgravity + radiation) has been known to be bad for joints and bone density afaik. A quick search to make sure I wasn’t falsely remembering suggests that current research still suggests it can lead to joint cartilage thinning and degradation. So unless the setting is scifi enough to have developed counters to that it probably wouldn’t be good.

[@crorinu]

It sounds like me mom's motives were retconned... Great video as always.

[@willemijnvanhagen768]

This podcast is the best way to start the weekend😊

[@kat8559]

"English is a slut language" took me out

[@mavrifantasia]

I was listening to this while I was running but I HAD to come on youtube to check out Will's special setup 😜

[@lizabethhampton4537]

1000000000000% with y'all on the rant about the trend in romance about the love interests completing each other and that's all there is to them

[@robertfaith]

The editing this book needed was a flamethrower. The way I cackled.

[@TheRealValGalstyan]

I’m glad that we had similar experience reading this book. Like Maria, I wanted to claw my eyes out while reading it.

[@sethledford9612]

Artillery could be Onagers, Catapults, Balista, cannons since they were invented during the medieval era, or as Will suggested a mage battalion. It would be cool to see where in the medieval magic this is

[@Sportsgirl128]

So many of my friends that loved the first book were so disappointed with the second book, which surprised me. I tried reading this second book, but already could not get through it and if people I know that loved the first book and then had issues with the second book, I figured I probably would dislike this book even more. I'm not sure I'll go back and finish it, I already know what happens anyways.

[@youarelight7599]

so glad ure covering this. i feel like i’m not getting why it’s so hyped

[@CKBrooke]

Just discovered your channel after deciding to DNF Iron Lame at 40%. Absolutely loving the three of you & your energy, banter, and chemistry. Very enjoyable, hope you keep reading together and making videos!

[@CrisM779]

This review gets a 10/10 from me 😂 It might be your best video to date, might even dethrone the Saviour's Champion imo. You all brought the snark and the realness. Like seriously, Katie is so right, I've also definitely read some worse fanfic over time but that's free content from amateur writers in most cases, so mistakes, plotholes and shallow worldbuilding don't get caught by an editor. This was edited. This was published. This was lauded as a great book when at most it's a collection of current guilty pleasures post-GoT. Dragons? Sure. White-walkers wannabes? Sure. Enemies to lovers? Sure. Smut? Sure. Death school? Sure. Special hair? Sure. Any reason for most of it? Meh... not really (aside from really wanting to make money). Really good point about the amenities available to the griffin riders vs the dragon riders. There's no reason why that would happen in a real world. Constant war and raids should have depleted their resources and their country should have been set back by this while the warded country should have thrived. But I guess that wouldn't have jived with the author's idea of having the MC "struggle" in a harsh world that wants to kill her. 🙄 I just hate the lack of logic. All books have some measure of contrivance, but this one has contrivances for all the major story beats and nothing makes in-world sense. This whole series can be described in one word as "shallow" and very specific "fap material" (as Will said) because this should have been marketed as a romance.

[@jasrianna]

This series is the epitome of a recent phenomenon that has been detrimental to most genres, but absolutely destroyed the standard of fantasy books published in recent years: an audience that wants to read smutty fanfic, but feel like they're smart for doing so. None of SJM or her many clones have any clue about the rich history of the fantasy genre, nor to they care to show any respect to it. And any criticism tends to be accused of pseudo-intellectualism and/or literary elitism, when the reality is that no-one has an issue with someone choosing to read fae p*rn or dragon smut, but there is a problem when it's marketed as fantasy and takes over the entire genre to the exclusion of genuinely talented writers. It's the equivalent of Bridgerton being touted as historical fiction - so-called romantasy is a subgenre of romance, not fantasy. A cursory glance at the amount of time spent on the former vs. the latter elements will tell you that. The world building is abysmal, the plots both predictable and laughably ludicrous at the same time. Sure, the relationships are painfully awful to read too with no depth of character or meaningful development, but it's clear where the effort went, even if there's no talent there to make the execution remotely competent. Seriously, go read your fanfic - it's free. Oh, but that can't go on the bragging 'I read fifty books this year. Go me!' posts. Quality, not quantity seems to be a forgotten concept. Yarros is by far the worst of these writers on a moral level. Her so-called disability rep is just gross, in every sense of the word. It's actively damaging, on a par with Sia's portrayal of autism in the catastrophe that was 'Music.' It's so bad that my cynical tinfoil hat conspiracy theories come out to play, wondering if she didn't tick enough diversity boxes so she decided to simply use the condition to exploit the admiarable drive to amplify marginalized voices as a marketing tool for her abysmally written novels. It certainly feels that way. I would implore anyone who still wants to read her work to find means of doing so that do not support her financially. No, she isn't at JKR levels of problematic, but using a debilitating condition as a selling point while dangerously misrepresenting it in the text is not something that should go unchallenged.

[@gabimarie7953]

There are definitely a ton of fanfic writers that write better sex scenes

[@thosefroggyfolks2004]

The good smutty fanfic writers are too busy doing the Lord’s work to get published

[@atrophiedup2myeyes]

What great timing. I was in for a long day of work and here you are, my newly discovered podcast posting this. I feel like I can power through the day because of you three so thank you! I prefer slow burn romances so this series was a huge no for me. Slow burn romances take the time to build up characters and their bonds so the pay off makes it seem like the feelings they develop between each other is something they can hold onto for a lifetime through thick and thin. Books from authors like Yarros or SJM are fine but the feeling of reading them makes me feel like I'm on so much sugar I want to barf. Like Violet x Xaden for example. The love and relationship the main ship develops feels so thin and brittle that a small little mistake sparks an argument that leads to miscommunication and therefore results in cheap conflict. So yeah.

[@beatrizdalri1411]

One flawed father that fascinates me is Endevor (Todoroki Enji) from My Hero Academia, he had children for the sole purpose of them surpassing him and becoming better heroes than him, going so far as to marry someone for their super power, essencialy buying her from her family to have a “perfect child”. We spend seasons hating him and when he finally becomes hero n° 1 he questions everything because he is not worthy, his family is broken, his kids and wife hate him, one of his sons became a villan and is trying to kill him. He is a terrible person, but also an amazing superhero, a jobs that is inheratly good. It is hard to forgive him, not all his kids do, not all fans do ether, but we all understand he changes and we see the reasons why his family is trying so hard to make amends, not only for their sake but also for political reasons, including the falsely assumed dead older brother who changed sides at the war. I think the big difference between him and violet’s mother is that we see the worse and then we see regret, and reasoning (not excuses), with the mother general there is none of that, we see a woman with no rediming qualities, hated by her children and working for a cause she doesn’t believe in, only to be told later that you should forgive her without any work to change her actions other than a last minute sacrifice. 1:33:54

[@LadyJ403]

-another one of my fave book people mynameismarines talks about this series especially touching on the books as fast fashion thing thats goin around everyone should check her out -looooove the clarification of boundaries vs ultimatums always good info to reinforce -so many scholomance references great series glad i read that one instead -6 min recap was hilarious didnt even realize the video hd gone one so long -like the idea of a theme of truth and lies -last minute plot additions are the worst -another great vid on a book i dont plan on reading ❤

[@Duduca17]

Unresolved Textual Tension and Marines are literally my favorite KZbin channels. 🥰🥰I'm with you.

[@friendofdragons763]

Guys I don't think William is ok he is unusually subdued in his rage

[@yiannis5972]

Oh excellent timing once more. The oerfect podcas to have while pretending to work at work

[@ahakuutti]

The saga continues! Let's goooooo!! 🎉🥳

[@hehevalerie]

here's a comment, may the algorithm bless you and pay for our suffering.

[@jas9474]

Every time I see you uploaded a new vid, my day gets so much brighter

[@darkadalia]

32:51 that reminds me of the movie, "Strange Magic" where the male love interest isn't attractive in the physical sense and the female protagonist falls for him anyway. I also thought it was a good enemies to lovers. This book series lacks all that!

[@applejackisbestpony]

Heralds of Valdemar does the same thing in one of the arcs! The love interest is described as having traits that might be considered "ugly" by some, but the MC talks about being attracted to his personality and his smile and all that. imo it's super sweet

[@shaunaisazombie]

My god, a video where Will doesn't have his camera precariously perched on a stack of books?? Y'all are gettin professional.

[@eugenebezpalko1631]

The moment Will said “my rage is…” I instantly thought “no matter what it is, is it worse than Patroclus?” And it wasn’t. Disappointed. 0/10!

[@The_Iowegian]

Came back to this video because it's hilarious and to beg you to do Onyx Storm now that its out.

[@migmit]

Loved Maria's "stomp, stomp, stomp, stomp".

[@chloesantos8637]

Are you gonna read all five books lol?? I'd definitely watch them all XD

[@hyenaedits3460]

"the editing needed to be done with a flamethrower" made me actually lol Also, I have like the mildest form of hypermobility (might be EDS but unsure at this point) and I still have to make a lot of accommodations for doing mundane tasks. I have to be very careful about how I walk and navigate rough terrain because I can twist my ankles and knees. I frequently dislocate my toes while swimming and sometimes even under a heavy blanket if I lay the wrong way. I have to be very intentional about how I move my body or I risk injuring myself. It's second nature to me at this point most of the time, but there are still times where I've had to leave work early or turn down invitations to events because I know my body can't handle it. I'm not as fit as people are in the military, but I'm in reasonable shape. And, yes, I have injured myself by just self-funtiming in a very tame way. The representation in this book is very disappointing and might even be actively harmful. I realized that in the first book but was fascinated enough by the dragons to keep reading, but there's even less dragons in this book. If it was alternating POVs with Violet and Andarna, the series would be 100X more engaging to me even if none of the other problems were addressed. I'm so done with this series. The potential I saw in the first book is clearly not gonna be realized. But I will continue watching rant reviews of it because it's such a fascinating trainwreck.

[@jordanrichard5666]

Her mother was the only character I liked due to the small glimpses of her being a cool character she gave me Miranda Priestly vibes movie not book

[@TeaCupSimmer]

Writing this at the beginning: my overall feeling about this book is that it filled time for me. Lol it wasnt the worst thing ive read but it wasnt amazing. I agree that it needed LOTS of editing and lots of world building. The dialogue is annoying with how everyone sounds so weird. Its a very wish fulfillment type of story. I dont hate it but its a popcorn read, like i read it because it seemed interesting and it had some interesting aspects. I love listening to you guys roast this series. 😂 The only part that i at least liked a bit was some of the emotional and relationship stuff with her friends or her mom that seemed a bit more realistic

[@teo6628]

A comment for you because you asked very politely and explained why, which I respect

[@theblob4741]

Omg I love you guys thank you. Thank you for roasting this book.

[@inthenebula92]

I was hoping you guys would do this one!! I can't wait to suffer with you!! (I haven't read it, I've just heard how bad it is)

[@vvitch-mist20]

The book took six months to write, and edit. I write novellas, and the writing of them still took two years. I'm a single mom, so if I wasn't I hazard it would have taken less then that, but def longer than six months.

[@h2o2630]

I just want books with substance again, I don’t why that is such a huge ask 😒

[@asherscott3151]

Yeah, if you're using a dead language, you need to give it it's proper respect. People from that culture really care, and it makes then quite sad that part of their culture is dying, so it's incredibly insulting to see people trivialize it. Not every language needs to be handled that carefully, but dying languages do

[@asteriaaa16]

put this on in the background at 2x speed to give me the energy to get my assignment done. also i didn't expect to get big sibling dating advice.

[@FaiAshland]

I read fanfiction and i can 100% agree it ruined slowburn. Slowburn for me should at least be a few books to take to get there(which is what im writing) but there should be moments where both characters get closer without going too far.

[@phillipayriss3608]

Has everyone forgotten the 'The Dragonriders of Pern' by Anne Macaffrey? It was a long time ago.

[@KawaiiSemeKiller]

Me as soon as hearing that she was mended and then tortured repeatedly - “Ahhh, someone’s seen Tokyo ghoul, I see.”

[@gisellemcgrew377]

This story feels like the first rough draft, and not even that. Like the basic ideas of the story that in between got filled with dialogues. Like i keep hearing these reviews and everything would've worked out better if the author put more meaning to the things she actually wanted to convey and not only tell a story of horny YAs that happen to have dragons. Idk. It feels like such an unfinished story.

[@mst3kharris]

I have been waiting for this with bated breath! Edited to add: I keep thinking you’re saying “Tír na nÓg” when you’re saying “Tairneanach,” which is irritating, although not your fault in the least. It’s my own fault for studying Irish.

[@S_Black]

I use the subscription tab all the time :)

[@mightbeagiant]

There aren't enough griffin books out there, this should have been about the griffin riders. They seem to be the underdogs and might have been more compelling

[@mcedwards]

I'm really wishing I hadn't wasted an Audible credit on this book now...

[@dalekrenegade2596]

I recommend you try out Primitive War by Ethan Pettus. Really good story and near perfect audio reading.