Robert Barartheon's story is very sad | Eddard 7 |A Game of Thrones Obsidian Nights Podcast

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Sources Used! ASOIAF Novels, GRRM's works HBO Series Game of Thrones, A **Knight of the Seven Kingdoms and A World of Ice and Fire, The Princess and The Queen (Dangerous Women) , The Rouge Prince (Rouges), The World of Ice and Fire App, Sons of the Dragon (Book of Swords)
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[@justineharper3346]

I think Robert is a lot more sympathetic of a character than Henry VIII. Sure, they both got fat and loved women, but Henry was a straight up monster IMO. I think Robert is just depressed and dead inside like you said

[@fulsgarden6915]

RObert didn't really love women or else he'd have treat them a lot better and much more respectfull. :D Very much like Cersei, who thought she'd love her own children, Robert thought he'd love women.

[@ashleyofnaath]

My tinfoil Jon Arryn theory: When he took his first diplomatic trip to Dorne to return Prince Lewyn's bones and negotiate a peace, he somehow discovered Prince Doran was sheltering an infant Daenerys. Because he knew that Robert would've killed Dany, and to prevent another civil war so soon after the rebellion, Jon Arryn agreed to keep Doran's subterfuge a secret. On the condition that Prince Doran immediately expel Dany from Dorne--and give his son Quentyn to House Yronwood as a hostage. An additional stipulation would be that Robert would never step foot in Dorne. This all obviously echoes Jon's position w/Ned and Robert and King Aerys pre-rebellion. This theory, if true, would comport with Gray's position on Jon Arryn--that he's a good man maneuvering within a shady political system, so there's not always an unblemished way to do his job. Will he lie to his King? Yes. But if that deception saves the lives of innocent children and prevents further bloodshed in an already war torn country, is it justified? Or should he allow war and the murder of innocent children to remain loyal to his king? It's GRRM's favorite thing to write about: the heart in conflict with itself.

[@ashleyofnaath]

@Chuck Spadina I think the house w/the red door was in Dorne. I think after Willem Darry and his few good men took Viserys and Dany from the Dragonstone nursery, the group split up and Viserys was taken to Braavos while Daenerys was taken to Dorne. It's very similar to what happened w/Bran and Rickon when the Boltons sacked Winterfell. Robb's heirs couldn't be kept together because it would be too easy for his enemies to take them out and end House Stark's line.

[@ashleyofnaath]

@Chuck Spadina there's other reasons, but the lemon tree is part of it.

[@made-line7627]

@Chuck Spadina Don't know if you've seen them, but check out Preston Jacobs' videos on "Daenerys and the Page of Lies". It goes over all the reasons, though he's not the only one who's done videos on her misleading past.

[@shannond7437]

I can absolutely believe that he was covering for the Targaryen children. I actually thought it was cannon that Doran & Oberyn were behind having Darry rescue them. I realized later it wasn’t cannon but still believe it. There is no evidence Jon Arryn wasn’t one of the best men in the realm. Littlefinger likely had Jon Arryn killed because he FINALLY realized LF was manipulating & stealing from the crown.

[@ashleyofnaath]

@@shannond7437 Well in this little tinfoil theory of mine, I don't think Viserys was ever in Dorne; it was just Dany. Though we know Prince Doran was certainly supporting Viserys's cause behind the scenes. I just don't think he ever physically sheltered Viserys within Dorne's borders. He might've been willing to, especially after Jon Arryn died, but Viserys was too much of a hot head. Quentyn says as much to Dany in Meereen when he reveals the marriage pact to her. My other, ultra tinfoil theory on why Littlefinger urged Lysa to kill Jon Arryn-- he was helping the love of his life Catelyn in her bid to secure Robb's birthright by exiling Jon from Winterfell. If Jon Arryn was to die, it's very predictable that Robert would turn to Ned to fill the post. Ned wouldn't be able to bring Jon with him, and Cat knew she'd refuse to allow Jon to remain at Winterfell. So the Wall, where Jon would have to renounce all claims to any inheritance and forfeit his right to father children, was the only place for Jon to go. It's the perfect solution to Cat's "problem". I think the letter Maester Luwin delivers in Cat's first POV chapter had something to do with this, and that's why she burned it before Ned could read it (even though it was allegedly written in a made up language so there was no real reason to burn it in the first place). But your suggestion could and likely did play a big part in LF's scheming too. Jon Arryn found himself in the unfortunate position of being worth more dead than alive to too many people.

[@thisguy8106]

Stannis left Kings Landing because he thought The Lannisters killed Jon.. and that he would be next.. and the slight..

[@shannond7437]

And why stay to defend Robert when he may not even believe him and definitely couldn’t be trusted to defend him.

[@AngelXO96]

@@shannond7437 He knew Robert was a lost cause and with Jon dead the Lannister’s held the real power in Kings Landing, no point sticking around in the lions den

[@lanasjoynt485]

True. Remember Stannis never got iver the fact that Robert gave Storm's End to Tenly after he held it against the Oaf of Hoyse Tyrell, Mace. The whole hatroson almost syarved to hold it becausr Robert asked him to. He did his hity and got nothing, all for the Lannisters to end up in power through Robert's apathy and Cersei's bastards will rule in the name of House Baratheon. Of course he got out of dodge. Who could he tryst once Jon Arryn was killed?

[@crawfordbrown75]

She was my favourite guest yet, she was hysterically funny to me

[@GrayArea]

I love her

[@ashleyofnaath]

I think Jon Arryn and Stannis jointly planned Stannis's departure, it just happened sooner than either intended because Jon was killed. Remember, Jon was arranging for Stannis to foster his only son/heir on Dragonstone. I envision a conversation along the lines of "because we've discovered the truth, my life is probably forfeit and my son is in danger. I'm Hand, so I can't leave, but you can. Take my son and protect him from the Lannisters while I stay and continue learning what I can with whatever time remains to me. I'll keep you informed as best I can, I'll talk to Robert, just get my son to safety".

[@ohhhmindy4380]

This is a good theory. It certainly fits.

[@ashleyofnaath]

@@ohhhmindy4380 Thanks. In the previous Ned chapter, we learn that Jon Arryn and Stannis would frequently go horse riding, and I'm assuming the departure was planned during those rides. We also learn that Jon Arryn hadn't been eating and would only pick at his food. To me, this suggests that Jon Arryn was expecting to be poisoned, which would lend credence to my theory that he knew his life was forfeit, therefore his son was also at risk so he needed to act protect him. Hence the fostering at Dragonstone.

[@Rumkitty2000]

@@ashleyofnaath Maybe he wasn't eating because he was slowly being poisoned and that's what took away his appetite. The Tears of Lys was just the Coup de Grace

[@ashleyofnaath]

@@Rumkitty2000 I like that idea because we see that precise scenario going on w/sweet Robin. However, as perfectly cyclical as that might be, I don't think Jon Arryn was being slowly poisoned in the days preceding his death. That's not what Lysa says when she reveals what happened, and I have every reason to believe Lysa told it like it was because in the moment she was proud of herself for having "protected" her son. Also, she had zero fear of reprisal so she could speak freely. Still, there's always a chance though I suppose😊.

[@emcclu2]

Stannis didn’t think Robert would believe it coming from him because Stannis would benefit from Cersei’s children being illegitimate

[@tonnettegrayson1657]

Exactly!

[@dragospinx1440]

Jon Arryn at worst is grey. Personally I think he's a cool guy with some dirt to him as most cool guys in ASOIAF.

[@shannond7437]

There are others that speak highly of him. I think his honor is part of why Ned was that way as well. I think she’s alone on this one, there isn’t even evidence of anything other than him being slow to learn to play this shady af game of thrones that was new to him.

[@dragospinx1440]

@@shannond7437 The Arguments made were also not supported by text. Like Marrying Lysa. It conveniently wasn't mentioned that Jon was forced to marry on the ultimatum of Hoster Tully. A Storm of Swords - Catelyn I "Catelyn rose, threw on a robe, and descended the steps to the darkened solar to stand over her father. A sense of helpless dread filled her. "Father," she said, "Father, I know what you did." She was no longer an innocent bride with a head full of dreams. She was a widow, a traitor, a grieving mother, and wise, wise in the ways of the world. "You made him take her," she whispered. "Lysa was the price Jon Arryn had to pay for the swords and spears of House Tully."

[@shannond7437]

@@dragospinx1440 Agreed. Even Gray sometimes forgets that Ned was thrown into opposite land in King’s Landing. He learned the hard way there is no loyalty or honor at court, only greed, manipulation, & ambition.

[@leslieshE]

Robert never realised who he really wanted to marry was Ned, not Lyanna.

[@willgriffin8773]

Still waiting for evidence that Jon Arryn is a "baddie", other than personal opinion and speculation............. . ...Unless there is clear proof otherwise, I think he was gray at worst.

[@steveandortudge]

Agreed. I think it's just years of speculation between books and eventually the finger of conspiracy gets pointed at every direction

[@gavomorg762]

Blown Away but this "baddie" statement.Never in a million years do I see it . I just wrote a post saying that there's zero evidence on this.if he was bad guy I do not see Hoster Tully marrying his daughter to him and I don't see Rickard Stark sending Ned to be fostered at the Eyrie. Ned grew up to be a good bloke and the same goes for Bobby B ,yes hes a said drunk and loves shagging not very kingly but he's not a bad bloke which is what they would of both become If raised around a "baddie"lol .Just the way they talk about him says it all . Robert saying to Ned about "he showed me what it was to be man" and makes a remark on how much of a twat he was at 16.On other words Jon Arryn made him a better person .Anyway this vid is the first time I've heard to him being described as a baddie " buy hey we've all got our own opinions........we just don't have to agree Lol

[@sleekoduck]

Look to the Dunk and Egg trilogy. There is something very Blackfyre-ish about him. The assessment is spot on.

[@AngelXO96]

I just think he was incompetent

[@gavomorg762]

@@sleekoduck how do u mean ? Do u think his ancestors were blackfyre loyalists?

[@tootieq6527]

In one of the chapters, it hints that Cersei planned on Robert dying in the melee. She knew if she made a big show of FORBIDDING Robert to fight, he would be hell bent on fighting, only because she made such a show of it. Ned messed up her plan by talking Robert out of it, hence the plan B of the strong wine on the boar hunt.

[@tonnettegrayson1657]

Exactly! She used Lancel to poison Robert on that hunting trip and was coming for Rangley next!

[@aliakapoor]

I wonder did Robert ever consider that after him constantly calling her out on her shit and hitting her and just generally being unpleasant towards her that she might one day kill him?

[@mayaowens3388]

My ears pricked up when you guys said "Maya". 😊

[@modmary1]

Omg!!! I never realized that Stannis already knew about Cercei’s children being Jaime’s! I thought he found out from Ned, after Roberts death. If he knew before Robert went to Winterfell, then he should have told him!

[@durrangodsgrief6503]

That's the thing he knew about them but he doubted robert would believe him because in his mind all the slights Robert did against him so he went to jon for help but when jon died he thought the Lannisters did it and would come after him next so he fled

[@tonnettegrayson1657]

He didn't know until he read the letter Ned sent him to tell him that the Crown was his due to Cersei illegitimate children! That's why Stannis offered John Winterfell and helped him get the Wildings and the Wall in order all because of Ned's honesty!

[@TheeSecondSon]

ONE WHOLE HOUR AND 8 MINUTES?! WE THE SWEET SUMMER CHILDREN DON’T DESERVE YOU ! 😩 ALL HAIL LADY GRAY! 👑

[@TheTam0613]

I join you in your worship! Love the co-host so much!!!

[@nodiggity9472]

For Robert, Roberts rebellion was never about being King, he just wanted to kill Rhaegar.

[@iamsecond411]

Sweet summer momma! I look forward to these posts every week! Thank you so much for all your hard work and how much you! Never under estimate the impact your work has. 😊

[@xxfaerietalesxx]

I also have always had this kind of nagging feeling that there is more to Jon Arryn & that it isn’t all good; sorta like how i feel about Hoster Tully. I think that there must be a reason why we don’t hear more about these marriage pacts and all that from when the Tully girls were young; when all of the adults/parents in the current books were young. Because, most of what we are hearing, is from those same adults/parents & they are going off of memories from when they were young. I just think that either Grrm doesn’t feel like that stuff is pertinent to the story OR there is some shit he’s keeping from us from that era for a reason.

[@gavomorg762]

In regards to the girls being married young as hard as it is for us to believe (gross as fuck)its a sign of them times.

[@alexturlais8558]

I think Jon is not evil or completely bad but i do think he was a bit shady and a bit more brutal than Ned and Robert think.

[@Rumkitty2000]

Based on what? There is no information to suggest this. As far as controlling Robert's spending, etc. How do uhou control a grown man, especially a king?

[@alexturlais8558]

@@Rumkitty2000 Based on the fact he was pretty much responsible for the whole war, and was pretty much in charge of the kingdoms since Robert didnt particularly care for ruling. He was also willing to not only forgive the Lanisters, but integrated them into the heart of politics. He allowed little finger to climb to power and pretty much ignored the crowns massive debts. Robert might be King but that doesnt mean his Hand doesnt have any power to balance the budget. Raise taxes or increase admission fees for tournaments or do something, that's his job.

[@mrsdixon3524]

@@alexturlais8558 How was he "pretty much responsible for the whole war" his own nephew was killed in Kingslanding Elbert Arryn! If he didn't call his banners he'd of ended up just like Rickard Stark! Dead duh

[@aliakapoor]

@@mrsdixon3524 plus the mad king asked for Ned and Robert's heads, what should he have done? Waited for Aerys to kill his foster sons? It was Robert's rebellion because neither Ned nor Jon arryn were interested in becoming the king and Robert did do a lot of the heavy lifting and it was his intended that was kidnapped.

[@vanessabogaert2104]

Jon was pragmatic. And trying to control a very headstrong Robert who did what he wanted.

[@cbrashsorensen]

But...he could not control Cersei...or Jaime for that matter.

[@annaarwen4345]

Varys actually wasnt too far off with who killed Jon Aryn. The description of Huw is very close to Little Finger - a young nobody who managed to climb the ranks with Jon's patronage. Lysa made Jon bring Littlefinger to Kings Landing and get him into a good position.

[@Rumkitty2000]

Huw? What's a Huw? Did you mean "Hugh"?

[@annaarwen4345]

@@Rumkitty2000 yes obviously meant Hugh. Theres so many strange name spellings in ASOIF for some reason I thought thats how its spelt. My argument still stands

[@tommytomasita1599]

I really liked yr guest today. Y'all work really good together it was very engaging! I love yr analysis as always you are my fave lady!

[@OneAngryDragon]

Jon Arryn made sure Robert's bastard children were taken care of financially, When I'm on for a Ned chapter in March I've got a good plan to stand up for Ned in ways that people don't seem to do, I'm going pro Ned! lol maybe I'll do a little Jon Arryn and Robert Baratheon vouching too lol I'm still super excited to do this show, if anyone ever backs out before March I would so stand in!!!! Love ya Gray!!!!!

[@leoeffii2162]

Always glad to get these on wednesday . Great stuff

[@SHARKVADERS]

GA!!!

[@stephaniespain9849]

I’m so confused about Jon being evil? He couldn’t control Robert at all!

[@ashleyofnaath]

Exactly! By that same logic (that Jon Arryn is evil), I guess all of Aerys's kingsguard are evil as well for failing to control him.

[@aliakapoor]

Literally, even Ned couldn't control him. Even Tywin wouldn't be able to control him, he could only be killed by cheating which the Lannisters are infamous for.

[@sillygirlkc]

Excited to get started today 💜

[@grodriguez7225]

My skin has turned to porcelain, to ivory to steel

[@sabrinakrisb4672]

Wow I loved this guest !!

[@shannond7437]

28:03 Nailed it!

[@chrissyofoldstones3210]

Aw Robert 😞 thanks for the juice 🥤 🐺

[@LoziPop]

I dont know how I missed this video. But I'm glad I found it. The Jon Arryn theory has me a bit tingly. I never considered it before but it would be a very interesting turn if he did turn out to be a player of the game. Look im even more impatient for the books now. All these loose ends full of possible knots and holes. I must know it ALL!!! shock me shock me shock me. Its been a long while since the books have punched me in the feels. I need it.

[@helenrose5383]

Why would Robert punish Jaime when killed his enemy for him and when Lannisters sacked the city and eliminated the threats to his throne? And I think if he had been send to the wall Jaime would have welcomed it. Its the years of scorn from bascially everyone that poisoned him, made him bitter and cruel. Jaime is like the male version of Sansa...And I don't think Jon Arryn is bad ,he fostered Ned and probably instilled all that 'honour' in him. Jon Arryn have taken the throne for himself could but instead he made Robert the king ...but it is ASOIAF ,everyone's gray at best...

[@seandougherty2521]

Jaime wouldn't have had the character arc that he has had. Basically, he would be so dark he would make Alister Thorne look like a nice guy

[@helenrose5383]

@@seandougherty2521 That's true.But Jaime would have been accepted by the brothers of the Watch...and that would have been boring...

[@seandougherty2521]

@@helenrose5383 and I the title would have to be changed to Lame of Thrones

[@bebos1262]

I currently hold Jon Arryn as a gray character because I don't know his opinion about Elia and her children's murder. If we learn he had endorsed Tywins actions he would be a definite baddie for me. Maybe Varys will tell us in Winds.

[@trfaison]

Varys doesn't know because Littlefibger was strategic enough to keep it unknown from him.

[@lowlandprophets7831]

Whats good, Fannon sent me. Awesome channel, keep up the good work.

[@justincurll1110]

Mance hired the catspaw, not Joff.

[@aliakapoor]

It's very weird that they were friends but they still didn't communicate properly and openly. Like as soon as you find out that someone wants your friend dead, you tell him. Robert in fact, should have realized on his own that Cersei would want to kill him at some point because they don't like each other. Robert even hits her, ofc she doesn't like him, he loves Lyanna and Cersei is anyway not a good person so idk why does Robert not know on his own that Cersei would kill him. Has he not seen how she treats her own brother?

[@kidgforce1]

It´s not surprising thart Cersei hates Robert, when he whispers "Lyanna" to her in bed

[@christophertracy7136]

I'm here because my glass candle 🕯️ is burning! So I knew that your candle candle is burning! Seven bless U.

[@joyboy_3165]

At the time Jon arryin called his banners their chances of winning were almost null, Ned had to travel through the vale and the sisters to get to white harbor and call his same with Robert. No "mastermind" would have done such a thing because he happened to like these 2 kids.

[@EPYHDA1]

Gregor would kill whenever there is a chance, all Baelish had to do is arrange the pairings in the tournament, and had a crony to help Hugh put the armour on. The Mystery Knight story shows that is was a somewhat common practice. The war was coming regardless, Varys had his plans in place already, Baelish or not. Stannis got offended for not being offered Handship and left, the incest, and the resultant war by this time was obvious to Renly, Stannys and Jon Arryn, that is why Jon Arryn wanted to foster Sweet Robin somewhere safe, which gave Baelish an in with Lisa for removing her husband.

[@lisajoseph796]

Fun fac: this guy the Squire is playing the Lanister Brothers in the HoTD

[@Anthonykure]

I think the same way when people constantly say how good a person is i immediately think that they're covering up that that person is a total piece of crap...

[@lisacook8235]

George does sad so very well, perhaps in part because his characters are so completely and unapologetically human - no idealization to fit the hero tropes of fantasy.

[@lawrencerbe2661]

I subbed because of Fannon will check out your channel. I am huge fan on GOT up to season 6 lol

[@christopherbrown1391]

Awesome grey thank you

[@gavomorg762]

Jon Arryn getting Robert to marry Cerse at that very moment was a good play.Sge was beautiful girl who would of give him an heir she had a powerful father In Tywin who is also Warden of the west and was hand of the king for 20 years and of course his ..Lannister GOLD!!! There was probably a few Golden dragons In the coffers from Aerys Targaryan time but apart from that fuck all .The stormlands is not a place that is rich and the same in the Vale .So at that time Tywin and co were the e perfect fit and ticked every box

[@durrangodsgrief6503]

im pretty sure the treasury was said to be overflowing

[@JWEST.]

New Sub Fannon sent me. Will definitely be tuning in. Much love.

[@C-Rocks]

Nice guest!

[@LuckyLucky-bm1pg]

i haven't read any of the books however i do watch the shows. when it comes to Ned Stark it's not that he doesn't think that there is no bad people, Ned doesnt like to show his hand until you cross or disrespect him, plus he is more of a fact kinda guy meaning he doesn't believe rumors nor does he like to assume anything..

[@sleekoduck]

Ned knew Syrio because he was the first sword of Braavos when Ned and Willem Derry took Daenerys to the Sealord's palace. Why was Ned taking Daenerys to the Sealord's palace? Because she was Rhaegar and Lyanna's child. Jon Snow is a Dayne. I hadn't even made the connection until you pointed out the Syrio oddities today.

[@lyndsaycrawford]

This English bird is off her rocker. Cersei May have played the pantomime part but Robert is pretending for no one. I don’t feel this theory at all. I think Jon Arryn was maybe slightly less naive than Ned but not much. I mean it was Lysa that poisoned him with great influence from little finger & for him to be trusting of anyone in kings landing lead to the same result as Ned.... fuckin dead

[@wisdommanari6701]

Long comment as always.... 😁 Hey so I just wanted to say I really liked the editing in this podcast. I have always thought it was hypocritical that Jon Arryn was all cool to Marry little Lysa but when Walder does it its so gross and Pervy. So the reason there was no punishment for the Lannister is because they had the freshest army. The rebels lost a ton of people at the trident even though they won the battle, their actual numbers wouldn't be able to compete. If they had done anything to Jamie or Tywin the rest of the westernlands would have started a war. Remember the reach didn't submit until after Ned left the capital. They were still in the field. They needed Lannister support. Stannis left Kingslanding AFTER Jon died. He was scared and didn't want to be killed himself. In a Kingslanding more or less owned by the Lannisters and his brother that doesn't listen to him or pay attention. I personally think he (Jon) is just a man, Typical high lord trying to elevate his family and care for his foster son. Remember Harry the heir is also a green boy that was knighted far too soon... 😏 Guys... I always thought that Cercie didn't want Robert to compete because she wanted Jamie to win, and Jamie would of course let Robert win. Uh well I don't think Ned was smart about the actions of the Mountain. He started to a civil war. If the group bearing the Kings Banner are attacked by "brigans" they end up in the same place. So... Is he disgusting for wanting sex, for clearly wanting to cheat or just his description of the squealing girl under him? Yes Robert didn't want to rule... But what do you do after you destroy the current monarchy? You are insanely popular and would be a threat to anyone who else claimed the throne. If you are not the one ruling then others may seek to win favor of the other lords for your past actions by punishing you. But... On the real Robert is a Broken Man. Clegane bowl, God no please... I want Sandor to be a pacifist and be at peace. He doesn't have to fight or kill his brother to find absolution or redemption. GRRM confirmed that the answer would be revealed in book 4 but he did not say it was Joffrey. Tyrion was drunk when he "figured out" it was Joffrey Varys is definitely playing Ned. He wanted to con Ned but collect him for aegon

[@bbking778]

Glad Fannon send me here

[@vanessaamesty6739]

Jon Arryn was incompetent, he should have never keep Littlefinger and Varys arround, but I think he was working on depose Robert and make Stannis king, he just didn't know how to get rid of the Lannister... I think Jon realise late he made a mistake on trusting the Lannisters I kinda want to know what did he agree with the Martells to keep them calm

[@deecawford]

I think he is good. He found the truth and was going to tell the king but was killed. He went to war for his two fostered sons Ned and Robert.

[@robsportsmanlee2640]

FANNON SENT TO TAKE A LISTEN.

[@andrewgeorgecomeau4066]

Jon Arryn was the one that kept Things functioning for as long as they did. It was Robert that was the mess. My evidence says he didn't HAVE TO call any banners. If he was a bad guy he would have handed Robert and Ned's heads over to Aerys. He MADE FRIENDS with all those people because he had to keep them from "I don't know maybe sending Robert off on a hunt with an old Knight ,a brother that wouldn't piss on Robert to put him out if he was burning ,and a LANNISTER!!! Need I go on? Ok You "love" Jaime? The second your Big Bad Jon Arryn was dead the Lannisters took over. My god did you even read the same books?

[@alyssasteed8227]

Me listening to someone slander Jon Arryn: I'm ready for this tea!

[@EPYHDA1]

I am not sure Varis is telling the truth to Ned. I seriously doubt that Cersei had a plan to kill Robert at the melee - too public and way too clever for her. Varis needs Ned for stability, because Varis' plan requires more time, but wants Ned to suspect Cersei to delegitimize her children.

[@lemya8120]

I never really knew what to think of Jon Arryn. I remember reading of him in a game of thrones, and always thinking that there was more to his story, more to his character than let on. I don't think he is a bad person though more leaning towards grey...

[@ashleyofnaath]

I could be wrong about this, but I thought in an interview George said Ned chose Syrio on his own for mechanical reasons. Meaning Ned thought water-dancing, and the type of swords used in it, were better suited to Arya's physical stature than traditional swords/sword fighting. Just so, this doesn't mean Syrio wasn't one of Varys's operatives. His being a part of Robert's court at all is strange; being Varys's spy could account for that presence. On a separate note, I thought Varys thought Pycelle murdered Jon Arryn at Cersei's behest. In the next Ned chapter, Varys intimates that during a small council meeting directly to Pycelle: "If I told you what the Dothraki would do to the poor man who used one on a khaleesi, none of you would sleep tonight...Now, poison...the tears of Lys, let us say. Khal Drogo need never know it was not a natural death." Grand Maester Pycelle's sleepy eyes flicked open. He squinted suspiciously at the eunuch.-AGOT|Eddard VIII

[@catchcritic9257]

Jon Arryn had no kids and thought of Robert and Ned as sons. He 100% went to war to protect them, not for political reasons. He was the Lord of the Vale, he gained a very stressful job for his effort and a wife that he was definitely not in love with. Ned and Robert may have their blind spots, but they definitely would not have respected Jon if he was pretending. It would've been obvious after a while. Ned is actually a good judge of character, he just has a northerners pride and wouldn't stoop to the game of thrones level of thought because the north is all about honor and family.

[@SteadySteppin]

Fannon sent me to check you out.

[@tylerbarrett6652]

Okay... the actors did an excellent job... but they LOOKED wrong for their parts. Robert is supposed to be better than 6 and a half feet tall... nearly the size of the Hound. Ned is supposed to have Black hair with a bit of grey in it and grey eyes... but Sean Bean looks light brown or red headed... almost like a Tully. They should have cast someone who looked like Arya and John... so many of the visuals simply aren't right.

[@countbalerionofhousetatter2624]

Greenhands also think Arryn was a baddie. I think it's for the same reasons; it's hard to tell because you have to be Patreon to get the theory in full. I'm more a poortreon.

[@BucketThinkTank14657Nerd]

Jon Arryn is very much about appeasement over anything else as Hand. “Don’t offend Tywin by sending Jamie to the Wall or even release him from the Kingsguard, reward Tywin by marrying his daughter”. I never quite know of Ned is right about Robert not knowing Lyanna because if anything he certainly didn’t know her if she did run off and secretly marry Rhaegar. To Robert I think he’s more about her not flat out embarrassing him after like 10 years of marriage but I dunno. I’ve always said Robert’s depressed, he watched his parents die because of Rhaegar, lost the woman he loved because of Rhaegar, now he’s stuck in marriage he didn’t want, in a job he doesn’t want that forces him to really just sit around and pretend to like people. All he really has is woman and whores and that I think is to just numb him up. He doesn’t even get to see his best friend who left him there. This chapter is one of my favorites because of Robert. I think “better than Littlefinger” is such a low bar 😂. But Ned is kind of stupid too but I think it’s just because he’s soooooo depressed all the time.

[@aliakapoor]

If he didn't want to be king, he didn't have to be king. I'm sure Tywin Lannister would have taken the throne for himself or his son. Robert wanted to be the king, he just didn't know what being a king entails. The more I learn about their stories, the more I realize that wanting the iron throne was probably the stupidest thing, it would be much better to just live a low-key life surrounded by loved ones.

[@redladie8528]

I wonder why stanus left kingslanding all the time as well! Also more than I should! I could see how arryn's decision to call his banners to protect Robert and Ned is ambitious, taking lysa after she's been tainted wed. Really Robert was lord of storms end at the time, he could have left the Erie and just called his own banners, unfortunately ned was also lord of winterfell at this particular moment as well, jon arryn was old and could have sat safe in the Erie had he not had his own ambitions or plans. Arryn didn't have to advocate for the lanisters and the cersie marriage, no where does it seem tywin planned to take the thrown for himself because he could have if he had wanted too he was the one who took the city after all. Then jon does just let Robert drink and whore the crowns money away never bothering to check little finger. Next he finds out cersies secret with stanus but he does nothing! Had jon and stan gone to Robert with even a suspicion Robert would have listened, he had no love for cersie!

[@Huey_Newton]

🐺🤘🏽

[@larrisamayy1194]

Didn't the mountain kill his sister too? And his father? Kills his servants and squires on his land? Has turned his families house and land into a nightmare

[@clarencec.-charlesrutenber4846]

FANNON Boxing said I should give you a listen.

[@patriciarainey4497]

If Jon Aron was ambitious he would have plotted to kill Robert. He had enough access to kill him if he wanted too. I feel he was used and in the way for other plots to be followed through

[@alexturlais8558]

I honestly feel so bad for Robert. Sure he doesnt know how to rule but I like that he knows that and is willing to delegate it to people who are more competent. He'd be the perfect king for a constitutional monarchy but completely unable to run a feudal society.

[@akiramado9198]

Tbh ive never thought of jon arryn as being....anything?

[@Timquan.]

Lol I know Robert wasn't a good king but he was much better than Aegon the unworthy was. He had the sense to know he wouldnt be a good king and gave responsibility to someone politically competent in Jon Arryn. and then later a trustworthy and honorable man in Ned. Now we all know how that worked out but at least he helped freed the realm of the Mad King and at least tried to make sure the Kingdom was functional for a while.

[@cbrashsorensen]

Are there ANY happy stories in the series? I think not. GRRM made it clear that his goal was to make sure there are NO happy endings. Well he succeeded with the ending he handed off to the GOT "show stoppers".

[@tonyfielder4498]

Fannon sent me

[@quincyquincy4764]

I can't with this guest.

[@gavomorg762]

Wow ,,I really don't t see how u can say Jon Arryn is a bad man .For 1therea not enough evidence and based on what we know about Ned I really think he would of turned out a lot differently than what he did and as for Ned not knowing "people" he would feast a different person Evey night at meals times to learn and to get to know the people around him plus they all loved him and went to war for him these"people"he didn't really know!Fucking man Bobby B's words to Ned were "I loved that man" plus he implys how much of an impact he had on him cos he was wild at 16 and openly says to Ned that's "he showed what was what and how to be a man".You can just tell but that whole conversation and the way they talk about him that he was a good bloke not saying that Jon Arryn wasnt an ambitious man fuck me who isn't in his series by to call him a "bad man " is something i struggle to see.Sorry

[@CMO-it1yw]

Theres pantomime in game of thrones ...

[@amyvickers9849]

Please don’t get political, that’s why some people come to this channel to get a break.

[@YourGraceMyLady]

Mychel Redfort was Myas love until he married some Royce girl.

[@kirkcavanaugh1493]

"They don't get women"? I guess Westeros is more similar to current times than it seems?

[@moneymayweathera]

Robert>>>Rhaegar

[@MusaMansu]

Robert did invite Cersei hunting with him. I don’t think that Lyanna would have been forced to be a ladylike if she’d married Robert.

[@SouthpawLD]

Jon Arryn was murdered! Honorable men get murdered too.. he was gonna tell it and Littefinger had Liza poison him so he could disrupt the order of things.

[@mrlivershot1]

✌

[@SASIERAIMVU]

girl robert is a rat, and a rat is always gonna be a rat!!!

[@ptptpt123]

Jon Arryn is bad

[@lesvosace602]

Spoiler alert Ned is dead :)

[@made-line7627]

How could you spoil the story for everyone?!

[@Thesmokeeffect]

Neds dead baby. Neds dead

[@TheWuschi]

This show is mostly as good as the current guest is; so some of the episodes are brillant, others are meh. This episode, alas, is sub-meh. I couldn't listen to that rubbish to the end. Incoherent stammering, no text analysis at all - it was like having to listen to some very dull, very annoying conversation behind you on a train. Sorry, if I am unfair and the interesting part indeed started after 19:55, the time, when I had to leave in disgust.

[@made-line7627]

What were they talking about at that moment? I can't remember, though I'm curious

[@TheWuschi]

@@made-line7627 My disgust resulted of all the nearly 20 minutes up to then. The completely evidenceless assertions about Jon Arryn being "baaad" (in GRRM's universe of shades of grey!) killed my nerve, and the lack of rhetorical abilities of the guest did hurt my ears and my brain.

[@winterwolf7423]

Robert has far more parallels with Edward IV than he does with Henry VIII. People link him with H8 because he's a famous king who was overweight. But that's their only parallel. Edward IV's serves as a heavy inspiration for Robert complete with a rebellion against their mentally ill cousin, taking the throne, marrying the most beautiful woman in England (E4's marriage was a lot happier), being known for never losing a battle (while losing one that's kind of in dispute), going from a warrior to an overweight king, and being a chronic cheater despite having a gorgeous wife. Aegon the Unworthy is absolutely intended as a parallel for Henry VIII with the six wives being replaced with nine mistresses. They also have the same crappy war record that's more of a joke.

[@OryxArya]

Also Robert has two brothers who try to claim the throne. Stannis has a strong resemblance to Richard III, strong military record, loyal to his brother, only trying to claim the throne after discovering his nephews are bastards and having a sickly heir. Renly could be compared to George Duke of Clarence, as in his plan to take the throne is not wise and he was reportedly quite handsome and charming, but its more of a stretch.

[@winterwolf7423]

@@OryxArya Yep. I've always thought the Sons of York were very similar to the Baratheon brothers. Robert is the closest to his historical parallel, but the other two do have shades of their possible counterparts as well.

[@mohamedleeban891]

He did persuade Robert from carrying out hits on Viserys and Danny, that in my opinion showcases his honour and moral code make of that what you will

[@CrazeeFy]

In my opinion, he was probably planning on deposing Robert too.

[@mohamedleeban891]

@@CrazeeFy what is your evidence?

[@kionaofoldstones4263]

What reasons or context clues would lead anyone to question whether or not Jon Arron was a good person? Is it because we're bored and need the next book already ..🤔

[@dragospinx1440]

Ditto

[@TheTam0613]

There's nothing wrong with questioning a character to look at them anew, and in many ways were "told" what a great guy JA was, but that's like the Targ history being told by the victors. You don't really know which "side" is telling you what actually happened, plus people are very multifaceted.

[@kionaofoldstones4263]

@@TheTam0613 I feel you.. but the character was never alive and moving to judge him about anything, I see him as a victim really, no human being is perfect, but it's like a person remembering their grandfather who raised them to be honorable and died mysteriously. Then outside neighbors are questioning whether or not they were a good person 🙄 I'd be like why are you judging my loved one post mortum, his foster kids are mourning him remembering how he raised them to be honorable, and the neighbors are like "yeah but was he really" why would anyone think otherwise. Why are the neighbors seeking to find negative traits in my deceased loved one...lol this series is deep no doubt, but that part seems like unnecessary digging. The man never spoke one word in a POV, he only lives in people's memories. Rest in peace Jon Arron.. lol 🤭 We clearly need some new material.

[@TheTam0613]

@@kionaofoldstones4263 Well, we as a society, along with Westeros, tends to judge history after it happens I have never even given a thought to JA being a grey character. The story lulls you into assuming he was this fine man and maybe he was, but just bc we're told that doesn't make it true. Ned and Robert can't really do well when it comes to judging character and when someone isn't doing all this work for the glory of the realm. I never thought about it but think the guest/co-host made some interesting thoughts which just made me realize I never think about JA. I thought it was thoughtful by someone very interested in the books and clearly very well read when it comes to these characters. And GRRM doesn't write white and black characters. It's the shades of grey that are interesting bc we are all grey.

[@lumbdame]

Jon was killed by Littlefinger and not the Lannisters even though he knew about them.

[@reneebarger5194]

Sweet Lady Gray. At the tourney of Harrenhall, most of the major houses were prepared to revolt & back Rhaegar. But Aeres shows up. Then Rhaegar goes off on a tangent path with Lyanna forcing fate. Jon Arryan had to pull together the shreds of the plan somehow. I’m sure he pumped up “brawny” Robbie to lead the rebellion. Baratheon was the closest legitimate heir he could get the rest of the pack behind. Yes, Arryan was a player. He played the hand he was dealt well. I’m sure he reminded Robert regularly, that if Jon had to marry Lysa to get Robert an army then Robert could marry Cersai to get a crown.

[@steveandortudge]

Grey, I applaud your abilities as a host. I felt for you as you were trying to keep this discussion at least somewhat on the tracks. Good fun as always

[@Hopster75]

Never thought of Robert as a broken man, but he shows all the symptoms. He's just rich.

[@AngelXO96]

You honestly didn’t see it with all the whoring, drinking and eating? The man was obviously trying to fill an empty void in himself

[@made-line7627]

@@AngelXO96 It's definitely obvious in hindsight, but it's also something that a satisfied ex-warrior, with all the luxuries of the world on offer to him, would do.

[@saymyname2417]

@@made-line7627 - Because such people were often burned out, empty and suffering from what we now call PTSD.

[@made-line7627]

@@saymyname2417 Eh, it could be either. I definitely think he COULD be a broken man, though I also think he fits my description, too.

[@saymyname2417]

@@made-line7627 - Oh yes, you're absolutely right. On the outside he is loud and having fun. But to me Robert comes across as utterly unhappy. As if he does what he does to fill a void or numb himself. He does not seem to be that gleeful, happy man who after an adventurous, tumultuous life is now surrounded by his loved ones, has fun and treats himself a little too much. Everything in Robert's life seems to be fight and strain and the worst danger comes from the VERY inside, from his wife and the in-laws and the council members, Littlefinger being the worst.

[@TheDevler23]

It's also creepy that John Aryn married Catelyn's sister, basically becoming Ned's brother in law. A man he half raised, as a foster son. It's weird, imo.

[@MPatzul]

Not weird in Westeros

[@kimberlyoliver200]

I’m a Targaryen Stan.. maybe a Dany stan moreso since in the show We didn’t get many Targaryens.. however rob was not a bad man.. vengeful yes.. a great king .. no. However the mad queen was mad.. but when I think of the villains he’s not on my list.. I actually think I kinda like Robert

[@JoniukasVader]

Gray Area!!!

[@danjordan1]

Juice Time!!!