ROBOUTE GUILLIMAN'S OPINION OF EVERY PRIMARCH! PART 2

[@CaptainWwowW]

My favorite summary of Gulliman and Angron not seeing eye to eye: "the problem is that Guilliman landed in ancient Rome, and Angron landed in ancient Rome"

[@The_0G_Chad]

Witty 🫡

[@Janoip]

Yes and no, if we real, no since Gladiator fights in reality where not so often to death, it was It was considered weak if you could not defeat your opponent without killing him. Yes, there were also kills and decisions by the audience, but the majority were not life or death, in addition gladiators were quite expensive and were treated like today as professional athletes who generated money and could live quite well from it themselves, plus the celebrity status.

[@sa9245]

@@Janoip It is a loose analogy, it isn't meant to be taken quite so literally. It is just a tongue in cheek way of saying one was raised in the aristocracy while the other was raised in slavish and brutal conditions.

[@aguspuig6615]

@@Janoip Yeah to be more accurate Guilliman landed on the good stereotype of ancient Rome and Angron landed on the negative stereotype. Neither accurate but both prevalent, tho if any is more accurate its the positive one ofc

[@minhducnguyen9276]

​@@aguspuig6615 Ironically, Gulliman life story would be the analogue to the end of the growing period of Rome. He ended the reign of the council of Macragge just like Rome transitioned from the republic era to the empire because they have grown too much and started stagnating.

[@ohma3305]

Robute’s reaction to seeing a broken Vulkan is so sad man. Seeing his brother, an icon of kindness and strength, pushed beyond his limit must have been heartbreaking

[@milankostic2571]

Corvus attacked Horus after Horus used Raven Guard as fodder at Gate 42, Leman Russ had to play the peacemaker just to calm Corvus down so Vulcan definitely wasn't the only one to disliked Horus Corvus straight up hated his guts long before Dropsite Massacre

[@attemptedunkindness3632]

He probably accidentally switched names. In fact Vulkan went on to openly muse about how Horus was 'the best of us, and if he can fall what about the rest of us?' before Istvaan while Corvus was 'I told you all so'. Anybody who knows knows Corax hated Horus before it was cool to do after 42, but Corax also big brained all of the potential traitors from his legion in that battle by accident. No to worries, getting overlooked is a quality of stealth and this is the way lore tends to go for the XIXth much more attention will cause GW to write another Damocles Gulf or Kastorel Novem, and they will not survive that.

[@BDL3035]

Leman Russ playing the voice of reason in a fight? The only Primarchs less likely to do that are Konrad Curze and Angron (and possibly the Lion, depending on the circumstances)

[@attemptedunkindness3632]

@@BDL3035 It's up there with Leman being sober, but it can happen. You even see him perform something like introspection after Yarant... rare indeed, but it happens.

[@banneduser5187]

Wait what?.. Corax actually attacked Horus?... i don't see that going well for him tbh. As much as i like Corax and the Raven Guard imo Horus would absolutely flatten him in a 1v1. I know he squared up with him one time but never heard about a "attack"

[@attemptedunkindness3632]

@@banneduser5187 This was pre warp infused Horus, and no, they didn't go to blows but almost did, only the intervention of Russ stopped him, we will get to that. Corax simply saw through the glamors, as he did with Big E Himself when he first met. Horus became warmaster not because of his combat prowess, in fact he was pretty unoriginal for strategy compared to the likes of Perturabo or Robute, nor straight up single combat, as you had the likes of Leman, Lion, and yes, Corax. One on one, Corax was a top five duelist, that's sorta his schtick. It was his charisma that got him(*edit: him being Horus, equal only to Sangy for pure charisma) the job of warmaster. Also Russ and Corax have a strange kinship with one another mostly because they are soldiers first not generals.

[@Kristian.B.Kristiansen]

The Roman Gladiator-Slave Angron was never going to get along with Roman Nobility Guilliman.

[@minhducnguyen9276]

"Dude, WTF have I done to you!? I don't even know you!" "YOU EXIST, AND THAT PISSED ME OFF!

[@idontlikerome2744]

@@minhducnguyen9276 reminds of Spartacus right there, dude got into leading the legions but never forgot his gladiator past

[@attemptedunkindness3632]

@@idontlikerome2744 And yet you have Corax who led not only a successful slave revolt but also seemingly became good friends with Guilliman and not only approved of the codex but seems to have had input, also clearly one of if not the closest associated first founding chapters with the inquisition barring whatever the grey knights are... for whatever that is worth. Maybe Corax sold out, but everywhere he went humanity had it better went he left. Except Istvaan. Maybe Kastorel Novem. Also maybe Agrellon also... Well, their second foundings do good work so... They help? Actually Angron is objectively winning more ground than Corax right now that I think of it...

[@TKUltra971]

18:04 Vulcan was weary of Horus, but Corax absolutely hated him.

[@milankostic2571]

Corax wanted to shank Horus, it was so bad that freakin Leman Russ had to step in and try to cool things down Leman Russ was trying to break up a fight, can you believe that? It was next level hate

[@ceejno7861]

@@milankostic2571 Probably the one and only time in his life that Leman Russ actually didn't want to see a fight break out. And I mean, I kinda can't blame him. Corax has zero chill when he's pushed that far, and Horus is... well, Horus. It wouldn't have been pretty. Part of me would've loved to see it play out, though.

[@chainsawsubtlety9828]

💯

[@jemers22]

I don't think the Lion particularly liked him either

[@Kristian.B.Kristiansen]

Ferrus Manus is very much the lower profile yet dependable older brother. Given his temperament and being found so early. He was broadly liked. Never going to overshadow the brighter ones like Horus or Sanguinius, but considered dependable in the extreme. He is the kind of brother or cousin you don't talk a lot with, aren't close with or anything... but if you need a hand, some support with moving, building something or money trouble... he will be there. With beers.

[@brockwilkie6022]

he was utterly dependable, how Fulgrim actually thought he could turn his brother is only a sign of his hubris. I think I heard the Horus knew it probably would happen but wanted Fulgrim and his pride brought down a couple rungs. HIs military accomplishements were also many and if one legion was built as an unstoppable machine of war it was his, Perty gets second but he was way more emotional so not as dependable as Ferrus. The big difference is G had more humanity and his legion reflected that. Also G always saw the BIG picture and knew that his legion would be stronger with a thriving civilization behind it, huge difference between the two.

[@ArnoldJudasRimmer..]

Don't worry lads... Lion will finally meet his brother after another 28 books, and a decade 👌

[@Migolcow]

I'm hopeful Corax actually reaches Gman before Lion. Lion is stuck on the side of Imperium Nihilus and iirc Gman is back on the south end of the Galaxy. And Lion is still "collecting" his sons. Meanwhile Corax has been Batman-stalking Lorgar (in hilariously dark fashion) and probably others in the warp, so anytime Gman might be in trouble (like a Fulgrim ambush) it could easily be Corax coming to save the day unexpectedly.

[@argentaegis]

I'm hoping that in the rematch Gman uses his "Fool Me Once" power and just orbitals Fulgrim.

[@isaacclarke8945]

Corax has secretly been on Macragge to mend his sanity the last few years after his bro trip with Vulcan!

[@everythingsalright1121]

It would certainly be an interesting reunion. Guilliman is already a bit more progressive in trying to tape back together the imperium, but having super warp crow corax show up might be a bit hard to deal with even for him. Whether thats because ...yknow, how he looks, the suspicion of corruption...or simply because corax wasnt among his favorites. I dont see guilliman throwing crow bro in prison but i think hes gonna be a bit wary of accepting help from something that looks like what the imperium fights against

[@leenan2345]

@@everythingsalright1121 Hm, I'm not too sure about that. I've read the book that Wolf Lord Rho references in the bit where he discusses Corax and Guilliman's relationship, and I think they're quite fond of each other. I'll admit that the book was in Corax's POV and the feeling might be one-sided, but in my interpretation the fondness goes both ways. I think Guilliman would be really happy to see Corax alive and (relatively) well. Is that wishful thinking because I am a huge Raven Guard girlie and Corax is one of my favourite primarchs, maybe so 😂 but I hope it will be a good reunion. Guilliman longs so much for his brothers. It would be nice if one of the reunions could be non-combative for once, just to make him happy.

[@Migolcow]

@@leenan2345 Relationship was mutual. When Gman learned of the Isstvan massacre he said he would mourne Vulkan and Corvus dearly. There was also an earlier snippet soon after Corvus was found when they had a good conversation and clearly got along.

[@aldrinmilespartosa1578]

I think Gulliman would like Curvus Corax more if he knows hes been spawn-camping lorgar. 😅

[@siuhunteo365]

Guilliman is the primarch with the biggest dream for his family. Which is why he was devastated when horus dragged half the galaxy to hell

[@manhunter433]

Many of Gulliman's brothers remark that he's possibly the closest out of any of them to being "human," as Gulliman did have a mother and father while growing up.

[@minhducnguyen9276]

​@@manhunter433 He's the most human in the sense that he can sympathize with the people within a reasonable degree. The Hawk boy or Vulkan can magically sense human suffering and instinctively help them but that's not how normal humans do and it's the most abnormal thing ever even when it's done with good intentions.

[@everythingsalright1121]

@@manhunter433 fulgrim was human early but he outlived all of the people he loved which made him drift away from his humanity. Magnus did okay growing up on prospero iirc with his adoptive father

[@jermainenowels9511]

@@minhducnguyen9276hawk boy?

[@SophiaAstatine]

​@@everythingsalright1121Magnus was only on the traitors side out of circumstance and unforseen consequences, so he is probably the only non monstrous traitor. Too bad he turned into a jigsaw puzzle.

[@The_0G_Chad]

Always remember…Horus said there was one brother if he had, alone could’ve taken over the universe. There was only one that understood war like he did. There was only one he was truly afraid would arrive. Gman

[@semihkaracan9112]

That quote was not actually referring to Guilleman, but to Ferrus Manus.

[@lavatun]

​@semihkaracan9112 no, he's right.. horus was referring to guilliman..

[@SophiaAstatine]

​@@lavatunHe should've probably be afraid of Ferrus too, considering the Legion of the Damned don't fuck around. But he also probably wouldn't have much thought to worry, considering the decapitation.

[@dumbidea1007]

He didn't say he could take the universe he said the one who was as good in war as him

[@codybates2419]

Corax definitely sees Bobby G as an older brother and you can tell Guilliman admires him and is impressed with him. He’s very different than G Man but they both show multiple respect and admiration

[@_NutcasE_]

Ferrus admires guilliman the quote here continues with ferruses thoughts on how he wants to be guilliman. He spend quite alot of time trying to shape his legion to be like Ultramarines too.

[@mikeylejan8849]

Why would he want to be like Guilliman?

[@_NutcasE_]

@@mikeylejan8849 because emperor praised the shit out of guilliman at the time and ferrus was not content on himself. Despite every primarch looking up to his talent in warfare

[@mikeylejan8849]

@@_NutcasE_ when did the emperor praise Guilliman?

[@_NutcasE_]

@@mikeylejan8849 about all the time. His domain was good enough to just annex to imperium without changes. His legion was "the standard all astartes should aim at" he had alot of honors fromthe emperor appointed to him. At the time Ferrus was surrounded by primarchs with honors and he started to have an impostor syndrome i the book and he revealed how much he wants to be like guilliman.

[@banneduser5187]

@@_NutcasE_ Here we go again, Matt Ward is back on a alt account chatting complete nonsense. "Ferrus Manus admires and wants to be like Guilliman" he says.. Matt, he's literally the first primarch quoted in the video saying the exact opposite at 5:10 mate

[@dac314]

"The only one who didnt like Horus was Vulkan" *ANGRY BIRD NOISES* 🐦‍⬛🐦‍⬛🐦‍⬛🐦‍⬛

[@mickbrown7793]

The irony of Guilliman's low opinion of Lorgar is that in many ways they are mirrors of each other. Granted, different in character, but the Imperium is as much or more Lorgar's work as it is his brother's. The two largest legions. The Codex Astartes and the Lectio Divinatius. Each had a vision for the future of the Imperium... and the pre Monarchia Lorgar would look on the modern Imperium with great approval. Well, I suppose that might offend Guilliman further.

[@brockwilkie6022]

they were the same in that they were idealists. They just focused their idealism on different things. G was also much more pragmatic, which I assume was why E wanted Lorgar to look at him for inspiration.

[@BrianHall33]

I highly doubt pre-Monarchia Lorgar would look at the modern Imperium with great approval. While he would approve the general worship of the Emperor and probably the implementation of a state religion though not necessarily, the overall state of the Imperium would also horrify him. Lorgar was an idealist at heart, similar to Guilliman and Fulgrim in that regard, so seeing the rottenly corrupt system of uncaring bloated bureaucracy and apathetic bordering on intentionally and needlessly cruel governance of the Imperium would break his heart. He wanted the technological and cultural heights he saw the Imperium of the Crusade achieving to be matched by an equal spiritual height. The rise of spirituality would be seen as a good thing but the destruction of the technological and cultural aspects of society makes it worthless, especially if the spirituality is hateful and cruel instead of being tempered by empathy and serenity. There is also no guarantee Lorgar would like or agree with any of the doctrine, theology, or structure of the Imperial Cult beyond placing Big E as a god despite being founded on his ideals.

[@kennethcook9406]

Angron is one of the saddest tales in 40k He was an empath forced into gladiatorial fights.

[@Marcher1977]

It's also tragic because he didn't learn anything and became a worse monster than the ones that enslaved him.

[@beyonder_ross7812]

I’d love to see how Vulkun and Russ see their brothers actually

[@guilherme5094]

Same!

[@meanestgreen3320]

Really wish we have more interaction between Vulkan and his brothers. Off the top of my head we dont really know his relationship with: Leman Russ, Lion, Morty, Alpharius, Lorgar, the Khan, and Angron

[@mementomori771]

The salamanders and space wolves are pretty close in the modern setting and I feel Vulcan and Russ would bond over their feelings of humanity.

[@Artorion]

​@@mementomori771 That's for damn sure

[@bodricthered]

I just love the thought of manus, vulkan and perturbed on Mars rebuilding the tech base of humanity, they'd have leapfrogged the dark age in a thousand years.

[@ordohereticus5530]

You neglected to mention that immediately before his "not reciprocated" comment Ferrus literally thinks to himself that Guilliman is everything he wants to be. His verbal response was just him being is normal stubborn dickish self. Also Corax ie confirmed to have a very poor opinion of Horus and holds a massive grudge. This is due to Horus severely misusing the Raven Guard, costing them thousands of warriors.

[@Rexwar31]

Oh I am so excited for this, absolutely love your videos man, it is what got me into Warhammer lore

[@jamesharrington001]

I'm chomping at the bit to see the Lion and Bobby G in the current setting. That said, I'd like to see the Lion's thoughts on everyone else now.

[@The_0G_Chad]

I’m gonna be so excited when G-man can focus on the war at large and push around the loyal Primark like chess pieces…. That would be absolutely unstoppable. Gman in the middle Corvax and Vulk on one flank, Russ and Lion pushing through hell… JKhan in front of all of them harassing the enemy.

[@andrewwelham8633]

I thought Corax had a falling out with Horus after Horus used the Raven Guard as little more than cannon fodder shock troops. Or, was that a different primarch?

[@milankostic2571]

It was Corvus

[@DoroteaTheMacuahuitl-Potato]

Vulkan also helped save ol’ Gull-Man’s mom, so there’s that.

[@malekith13]

For roboute and corax it seems obvious they would like each other, both want the same thing... A PIECE OF LORGAR ! Jokes aside, they both want to bring peace to mankind, they only see war as a necesity that should be avoid as soon as possible, while most primarch only wanted to do their war Roboute is one of the few that was really thinking of the aftermath of the great crusade, preparing his world for a better futur without war and when corax meet the emperor for the first time he also said to the emperor that his goal was peace, a thing that the emperor really liked and admitted it was the hardest thing to get.

[@Direwolf13PS3]

Angron's monologue would hit harder if he hadn't backed the very man who would throw the galaxy right back into that pit of depravity and devastation he decries.

[@ceejno7861]

Angron's speech would carry a lot more impact if he wasn't, you know, destroying Guilliman's world in front of him at the time. Who had the harder upbringing isn't really the point here - the point is that Angron is using that past to justify visiting the same cruelty on others and turning other worlds into the kind of hell he was raised in. Guilliman has no respect for that, especially under the circumstances. His opinion on Lorgar IS unusually harsh, and I have to wonder if it's basically cope. Guilliman really wasn't thrilled by what the Emperor had him do to Lorgar. Maybe it's easier to swallow the guilt if he thinks of Lorgar as an irredeemable piece of shit.

[@fedupN]

No, Guilliman is right. Lorgar was given every chance. Up to and including the Emperor personally telling Lorgar to quit it prior to Monarchia. And Monarchia was given more mercy than what Lorgar shows the worlds suffering from his religious pogroms. When your liege lord, father, and GOD, that you supposedly swore absolute loyalty to, says "No, it isn't like that and I need you to stop and do better" and you still drop to your knees to suckle space tentacles and murder your friends, family, and innocents...yeah, all the hate is justified.

[@45johngalt]

nah, f*ck lorgar

[@minhducnguyen9276]

@@fedupN Not to mention whatever opinions Gulliman had on Lorgar he kept to himself to avoid worsening the relationship between legions. On the other hand, There's nothing Gulliman can say that'll satisfy Lorgar.

[@ceejno7861]

@@fedupN Funny enough, I just got to the Monarchia scene last night. And I have absolutely revised my opinion, because DUDE. Lorgar could not possibly have been more of a shit about it. Between backhanding Malcador, threatening Guilliman, and arguing directly with the Emperor, he's lucky all he had to do was kneel. It's like he WANTED to be smacked down. (I did laugh out loud when Guilliman, after taking a crozius to the chest, calmly got back up and asked Lorgar if he was done throwing a tantrum.) So yeah, sorry G-man, you were spot-on.

[@Outside85]

While that is true, it is also no further than Angron ever thinks. It wont matter to him whenever Guilliman understands or respects the point, its just that he gets a taste of what it was like to be Angron. It was the same with the fight with Russ, didn't matter to Angron if he had ended up dead, the point to him was purely that he could beat Russ in personal combat.

[@Nappanaia]

Theres a channel, Rufus, that does dramatic readings from parts of the lore and he foes the one between Angron and Guilliman and it's delivered beautifully

[@lauravergot9995]

I agree with Guilliman about Angron. Everything he said is true. As much of a victim as life makes us, it is our choice how we play the cards we are dealt. Once removed from Nuceria and his slaver, Angron chose to become what he did. He never really tried to improve himself and took it out on his sons. If he had asked G-man's help at the beginning, I bet you they would have become friends.

[@Carbonblak]

As far as Lorgar being so slow in the campaign was probably a lot of that opinion.

[@Calis1880]

Horus even well into the Heresy after Calth he had nothing but respect for Roboute. His speech talk with the skull of Manus says it all. “Yet my brother lives. Roboute! Wise Roboute ! With his scratching quills and his plans and his hope. Too understanding. Too strong. Too damned perfect…. I wish he was with me. He would say that I listen to much to Lorgar and Alpharius and war fought with deceit is doomed to failure…He would be right. The Hydra does not see all and now his blindness places a knife at his back. Corax would not have made such a mistake. Strange is it not? So many I wish beside me stand against me.

[@Archon3960]

I am surprised you skipped Corax's enmity towards Horus. It was a pretty big deal. :/ I have seen similar videos (like on Live from the Black Library's channel), but this was a nice refresher on Bobby G.'s 'family drama'. Keep up the soothing retrospectives Rho. ;)

[@Thought_Processing_]

I know it cannot be developed more because of what we have already but I am really curious as to what the relationship between Angron and Roboute might have been.

[@manhunter433]

If it wasn't for the butchers nails, things would be very different. Even the Emperor was horrified by what had become of Angron.

[@setahr]

I read today in the book Aurelian, that Lorgar was said to have the chance to kill Gman with his own hands on Calth by Kairos Fateweaver. But then he had to give up a higher destiny, even if that would cost his brothers respect. So Lorgar did spare Gman. What a twist...

[@bahisci10]

Author of that novella is ADB; a known chaos fanboy and Guilliman hater. No wonder in his book Lorgar spares Guillliman..

[@setahr]

@@bahisci10 First of, thank the gods hes a fanboy. You cant write WH without beeing one. And there are enough others like Ben Counter, who are loyalist fanboys, so its good to have at least a little bit of balance as long as it is canon

[@jkgf4671]

@@bahisci10 So what? We should read novels written by Ultramarines fanboy? Should we also considered majority of Wh40k authors as Imperium fanboys and chaos haters? Because in majority of books chaos is the whipping boy of the Imperium. Imperium winning battles even when they are outnumbered because plot armor - "yyyy well, chaos is chaotic, so they aren't as coordinated as the Imperium" bs. Even tho chaos is strenghtening its followers. Like when SM that had mostly regular humans under his command was able to win against Perturabo, that had mostly Space Marines...

[@bahisci10]

@@jkgf4671 Yep you should read novels written by Ultramarine fanboys.

[@nicolasadjignon1336]

@@bahisci10 I think we already have enough toilet seat fanboyism running rampant, thank you.

[@GT-legendary]

Ferrus does in fact admires and envy Girlyman. He sees in Papa smurf how he aspires to be, but he'd rather lose his head that admit that openly.

[@krimzonstriker7534]

Council of Truth short story which depicts the aftermath reflection on the Tesstra Compliance when Alpharius and Gulliman fought together gives a pretty in-depth look at how Alpharius views Gulliman and how he thinks Gulliman views him.

[@wmc4920]

9:05 while in the background Lorgar is having a full blown church mass with choirs singing and screaming TESSSTEFYYYY!!!

[@peterlepper5199]

The narrative of Magnus being so much more arrogant than every other Primarch is so funny to me. It's actually not at all backed up by the text (unless you're reading ADB, who basically has a personal grudge against him; every time Magnus shows up in ADB's work it should qualify as character assassination). Yeah, Magnus thought he knew better than everyone else; and he was 99% correct in that assessment, because when it came to the Warp and Psychic stuff, he *did* know better than everyone else, barring the Emperor. The fact that he was ultimately wrong (due to information that the Emperor deliberately kept from him) doesn't change that. Aside from Magnus' one big mistake, where is the evidence for his "astronomical" arrogance? People forget that he was besties with Sanguinius, Vulkan, and the Khan, three of the most generally well-liked and level-headed Primarchs out of the whole bunch. Russ demonstrates at least as much arrogance as Magnus does, if not more; before the battle on Shrike, Russ sasses Magnus about his feathered cloak not being practical in combat (as if Magnus couldn't just obliterate anything within a kilometer with Psychic powers anyway, making the practicality of his garments a moot point). Magnus simply asks "What if I said the same thing about your wolf mantle?" and Russ straight-up threatens to throw hands on the spot. Ahriman, who was observing, notes that it was probably a jest but also that there was genuine edge behind it. Russ basically insulted Magnus, who took it in stride and just politely turned it around to point out Russ' hypocrisy, and Russ 'jokingly' threatened to kill him ("You could, but then I'd have to kill you," were his exact words). Who comes out of that exchange looking more arrogant? Russ viewed himself as above all of his brothers; how else could he have deemed himself their "executioner"? His Legion followed after him; I mean there was the whole thing about Rune Priests being "totally not Psykers," let alone the squad of like five perfectly ordinary Space Wolves who thought they could bring *Sanguinius* of all people to task if he turned traitor, on his own ship no less. Or how about Dorn, who was so arrogant that he threw away the majority of his surviving Legionaries (after they had just been through the bloody Siege of Terra) by "deliberately" walking into Perturabo's trap in the Iron Cage? Or the Lion, who believes he's automatically better than everyone else because his Legion has the number 1 attached to it? Who trusts none of his brothers with the secrets he keeps, who hoards forbidden Dark Age technology, et cetera? Hubris is the defining flaw of Primarchs in general, and I mean it's kind of understandable for demigods who were created to command the most powerful fighting forces in the galaxy - fighting forces that were literally reshaped in their image. Being a twelve-foot immortal superhuman is bound to give you an ego to begin with, but when ten-thousand superhumans repaint their armor to match you and basically adopt your personality as a culture? That's *bound* to skew your perspective on things.

[@bozeia]

I agree with this feeling like the case a lot of the time when it comes to what I hear about some of the text. In listening to the video, I found the section on Guilliman's thoughts on Magnus very ironic. The idea that Guilliman himself comes across as thinking he knows best and "that's okay" because it's all based in him "having the best of intentions for his brothers" is not an excuse people accept when the actions of Magnus are discussed. It shouldn't change the fact that it's still arrogance, and it shouldn't change the validity of whatever strife or frustration Guilliman could have caused his brothers with that kind of attitude. It's still essentially the same flaw that Magnus is guilty of. It just was never a flaw that led to his downfall, which is the difference. That being said, I think it's entirely possible that whatever interpersonal issues Guilliman and Magnus had pre-Heresy could have been something as simple as personality friction. But I also think we just don't know enough about their interactions from pre-Heresy. Magnus wasn't one of Guilliman's "Dauntless Few", which at the very least suggests that Guilliman might not have viewed him as dependable as the four counted in that list (which, honestly, _fair;_ Magnus seems to have had a thing with standoffs with more than one brother over _please do not firebomb that cool library),_ but there is an excerpt I found where Guilliman brought up Magnus when he gave his opinion on the validity of Imperial Saints and what they truly are. It was to the effect of "Magnus would know and would have been able to say, before he erred". I was surprised to hear about the quote and I wonder if it suggests that Guilliman misses the value he once found in his brother's perspective on things.

[@peterlepper5199]

​@@bozeia This is very reasonable and very well put. Re: Guilliman and Magnus, it's also worth noting that in the aftermath of Calth, Guilliman basically outright says that the Emperor's judgment at Nikaea was wrong. Which... for the "golden boy," is pretty shocking. It gave me a lot more respect for him, but it's funny how Guilliman says "The Emperor might be wrong" and everyone goes "Wow, what a cool free-thinker," but Magnus says "The Emperor might be wrong" and everyone's response is "How dare you be so arrogant and presumptuous as to think you know better!?" It's like what you were saying about the comments in this video about Guilliman's intentions. In general I wish we could have seen more of Guilliman and Magnus interacting pre-Heresy, because as it stands we have... basically nothing. They shared many things in common; I mean the library of Ptolemy on Macragge is likely second only to what the Great Library of Tizca was like. If they disagreed on anything, I could honestly see Magnus viewing Guilliman as too *practical* - gathering and using knowledge as a means to an end, rather than an end in and of itself.

[@bozeia]

@@peterlepper5199 That's pretty on the dot, I think. The real actual difference between Guilliman and most of the traitor Primarchs is that he does have a firmer grasp on self-discipline and self-moderation. Magnus is my favorite Primarch, I will wholly admit that, but he's truly my favorite because of how flamboyant and impulsive he can be. That's what makes him fun, but it's also what, I think, is his actual fatal flaw. For a scholar, he's ironically a "fireball first, ask questions later" kind of planner at times with no real eye (lol) for actually working around the priorities and circumstances exerted on him by other people. I think he usually relied on "if I explain it _well enough_ they'll get it and everything will be fine", which doesn't actually work out as much in real life as it seems it should. At least, that's my interpretation of what's going on there, anyway. Anyway, thank you for the reply. I enjoy talking about this kind of thing. C:

[@peterlepper5199]

@@bozeia No worries! Once I get started talking about these things I find it hard to stop... I actually sympathize with Magnus *a lot.* He feels like the "gifted kid," who always just *got* everything intuitively. Like when you just *know* what the answer to the math problem is and you get frustrated when you need to show your work. People don't give him enough credit, but he was right way more often than he was wrong (reminder: he created the five Psychic Disciplines that the Imperium still uses to this day). Also the kind of power that he had would breed overconfidence in just about anyone. When you can freeze time and psychically baseball throw a 67,000 ton tank, it would be easy to feel like a god, and the Emperor never really checked him. Just "Don't open that box," with no explanation given. If you know anything about naturally inquisitive gifted kids, you know exactly what one of them would do when told not to do something and not given a reason why. And then, when the Emperor finally *did* check him, it wasn't in a way that would be helpful, it was a sudden and hard 180' turn, from flying the cosmos with him to suddenly "These powers that I created you for and that you built your entire identity around are now dangerous and illegal, never use them again" in front of all his peers. Who the hell wouldn't feel tempted to prove him wrong in a situation like that? I mean people give Perturabo all kinds of leeway because he was bitter about never being told "thank you" or "good job," but Magnus didn't need to hear either of those - he just needed *not* to hear that he and everything he stood for were worthless liabilities.

[@lazy-ishviolacook8089]

He might not have liked Alpharius, but did he ever meet Alpharius? Or Alpharius? Gulliman might have liked those two.

[@dennisbendixen7138]

Ferrus like The Lion is deucebags when it comes to show affection to thier brothers, but from different reasons

[@V.B.Squire]

Question for the Wolf Lord - If Space wolves are based on Norse mythology what will this mean for their relationship with the Votann based on Odins relationship with Dwarves?

[@kinesta]

Thank you for the nice long video!

[@bigwigcthulu6902]

What I want to see is Fulgrim and Lorgar trapping Gman, beating him and tormenting him. Then the Lion teleports in to save Gman who is incapacitated. But he has to solo Fulgrim and Lorgar and he does well but they are wearing him down. Just when it looks the most dire, Corax says from the shadows "Lorgarrrrrrr" in that taunting voice. Then he just swoops in and starts bodying Lorgar. Then Lion can drive off Fulgrim with the help of Corax. Then they save Gman and all have a tea party.

[@McCowski]

This guy's speech pattern bewilders me.

[@ProsperityManifested11000]

Do a corax version!😢😊

[@DGH-q3b]

Meta: Could I ask you to refer to specific books in your description? It would be a useful roadmap.

[@____________838]

Damn. Angron spittin’ mad facts there.

[@tjm11015]

I'd love to be a Nurgle fly 🪰on the wall when some low level demon😈 had to tell Fulgrim that some grotesque cyborg, a Necron Pokémon collector, and some death god's elf bxtch herald are all responsible for bringing a very cranky little brother back from the dead. Also the G Man seems not to have woken up in a very forgiving mood, I'm fairly certain Fulgrim skull fckd that messenger demon, and then cried in fear for the next several days.😢

[@SemiOmni314]

It happened in Gathering Storm: Rise of a Primarch > One by one, the champions of the Dark Gods of Chaos became aware of the returned Primarch. Reclining amidst an endless banquet of souls, Fulgrim pouted in displeasure as Daemon imps whispered the news into his ear. The Daemon Primarch of the Emperor’s Children bestirred himself from his velvet throne, vowing to the depraved god Slaanesh that this time, he would ensure Guilliman’s eternal fall from grace.

[@isaacclarke8945]

There’s more to Angron, but his choices are his own. There is a distinct difference between Angron and his brothers and I think it is safe to say that if any other Primarch had been in Angron’s situation it would have turned out differently. Mortarion’s convictions got the better of him. Magnus wasn’t so much arrogant as pure brilliance without wisdom and good temperance. A tragedy. Lorgar is an impediment, ascribing meaning without substance. In fact Roboute and Lorgar are diametrically opposed in every way. Horus, an incredible leader who traded his destiny. Alpharius: [Redacted].

[@yoshimitsuzk]

Aggron is a sad story.....I never blame him for what he did.

[@manhunter433]

A remark from Horus after he became Warmaster, he was fearful some of his brothers would be scrutinizing his every action closely. As I recall he specifically mentioned the Lion, Roboute and one other Primarch who'd probably seek to usurp his position.

[@samb123078]

When Ferrus snorted to Fulgrim’s remarks I took it as him just being humble. Like “I’m really not all that great, he needs to stop blowing smoke up my ass” or “I am really not worthy of such praise”. I honestly don’t see Ferrus as a condescending person.

[@InVinoVeratas]

I assume we'll never get any of the Primarchs opinions on the Two missing Primarchs... I guess it's not worth mentioning, since the Primarchs themselves were MIB memory erased as a result by either the Emperor himself or his homie Malcador.

[@Fordo007]

The 2nd was in Fulgrim’s book. He had a goatee or beard and Fulgrim felt he was humorless.

[@readsomebooks666]

Not before we see the remaining… 9/10 living ones return. It’s a good pair of cards for GW to keep in their back pocket long term. And I think it’s extremely likely that, if we ever get to them, that they’ll be villains. Not chaos aligned though, probably Xeno infected.

[@joeblack2809]

And I think Guilliman said something about them being lost. So maybe they were mutated beyond human somehow.

[@theepicduck2000]

I think Vulkan must have been one of the least ‘social’ of the primarchs as most of his brothers only have a real opinion of him when they spend time with him.

[@why-so-toxic_1413]

Can we got more like this like what did the lion think of his brothers

[@moanlyn8450]

I think Gulliman wrote Angron off solely for the fact Angron never tried to be better than the nails he simply submitted to them

[@rossgadsby9663]

I agree but I think even a hint of sympathy from somebody may have gone a long way. Cause the emporer also kinda just said "Sucks to suck, you can still lead this army tho, so get over it". Angron was given no real reason to be better. They all seem to see him as just a brute even pre heresy

[@fedupN]

​@@rossgadsby9663Strongly disagree. They provided Angron with authority, fraternity, new battle sons to call comrades, and purpose. Angron could have bonded with his new Legion, liberated worlds to free slaves ala Corax, and ensured the evil of the Butcher's nails never hurt another. If we argue the Nails robbed him of his thoughts, then NOTHING could have helped and the Emperor's only mistake was not giving Angron the Ol' Yeller treatment. But if we contend Angron was capable of his own thoughts, the failure remains with him. His life was improved on every level when he was saved from Nuceria. He had NEW battle brothers, in the Primarchs and the War Hounds. He could have, SHOULD HAVE, grown. Instead he murders innocents and comrades across the Imperium and even inflicts the Nails (which he whines about in this video) on his own Legion.

[@moanlyn8450]

@@rossgadsby9663 true he received no sympathy from his brothers and father but he did receive it from his sons the same sons he broke and turned them into the same wretched monster like him.

[@alastor8091]

He could've kept the torch alive from his slain family, but instead turned into a worse monster than the ones they fought against. Now he'll be infinitely worse for all time as a demon. Angron is 40k's biggest loser.

[@rossgadsby9663]

@fedupN Well here's the thing, let's use the real life military as an example. If you have a person who has natural leadership ability, lacks fear and is relentless and aggressive. Those are all optimal qualities for a strike force commander. That said, you still mentally screen that person. Here you have a man in constant pain, mutilated by slavers, and treated as a show puppet for decades. And the emporer just plucks him up, leaves his friends to die. And seems distrustful and off put by Angron. If the Emporer expected that to be ok in the long run than that's like criminal negligence

[@j.t8529]

Guilliman definitely loved Vulkan for he was there to save Guillimom

[@DarkAngelLion94]

Can you do the opinion of Lion el'Jonson, Leman Russ and Constantin Valdor on the other Primarchs? Please

[@Kainlarsen]

I think you're wrong about Guilliman's view of Angron; He believes Angron could have risen above the pain of his past, but let his rage and hatred blind him to what he could have been.

[@houseadams4841]

Corax wasn’t the biggest Horus fan… Not sure if it was only after he made the RG fight in the Vanguard and get annihilated (while they had Space Wolves and Iron Warriors in the same battle..) … or if he had any issues with him prior to that episode.

[@Teyl1]

Corvus hated Horus. He never respected the Raven Guard's way of war.

[@Visor3410]

Ferrus' comments about Guilliman just confirms everything people think about him. He was a fool that got his head cut off because of his stupidity.

[@dandrummond9154]

The primarch of logistics probably could win a war against any of his brothers. Strategy wins battles. Logistics wins wars.

[@trajanfidelis]

Alpharius Omegon's track record during the Great Crusade matched most of his brothers records despite "officially" having served the least amount of time. He pulled this off thanks to the strategies and tactics Roboute and Dorn deride as cowardly and wasteful.

[@LordEmperorBoss]

Roboutte reminds me greatly of Ky Kiske from the Guilty Gear series.

[@Lord-Regent-of-the-Imperium]

Hearing how Ferrous felt about me kind of hurts.

[@goonbuggy1135]

Guillimans opinion on his brothers, is the same as him meeting the emps. How can i use this tool.

[@renhowell6175]

So, I am a bit confused by your Alpharius section. Your summary seems to be that there is little-if-any indication from the lore on how they might feel about one another except for a general measure of distaste for his tactics. Didn't Gulliman "kill" Alpharius at the battle of Eskrador? While Gulliman "won" the battle, wasn't it kind of a kind of philosophical victory for Alpharius who ridiculed Gulliman for his ridged adherence to the codex astartes, and only "lost" because he forced Gulliman to deviate from it. Could it be that Alpharius was even intentionally "training" Gulliman to grow by embracing a more versatile viewpoint? I feel like there's perhaps a bit more to go on here than you let on, and I feel like Gulliman's attitude's toward Alpharius may indeed evolve as Gulliman himself evolves. I think at the time they first battled at Eskrador, Gulliman was a much more rigid, by-the-book, uncompromising sort of person, and thus judged Alpharius' overall attitude and methods quite harshly. However, you could argue that the battle itself was one of the first major times Gulliman deviated from his ridgid mindset. In the modern 40k setting since being reborn, he has been forced to do so many more times, culminating with his interogation of the Tzeench deamon in Godblight (something decidedly NOT codex astartes approved). Alpharius is, almost by definition, secret and unknowable and I agree that will always give Gulliman a flavor of distaste. However, I feel like the apparent "death" of Alpharius was also the spark of a seed which has come to take root in Gulliman, and I feel that this growth could influence his attitudes toward his brother.

[@philbattiste9649]

As much as Guilliman disdains him, Angron wasn't terribly wrong. Roboute got one of the sweetest deals of all the primarchs, while Angron had his whole world against him. And like Angron, Guilliman does have a temper, he just has the privilege of keeping it in check. Angron is right to suggest that if the shoe was on the other foot, Guilliman would've ended up on a similar path.

[@logangodofcandy]

Angron has the nails, and was a powerful empathy, so he was unique. Guilliman probably would have played ball, before having enough power and wiping out all his enemies in one fell swoop like Michael Corleone

[@milankostic2571]

Angron could have at least tried not to be such a colossal dickhole his entire life because, no matter how hard you had it before, after several decades it stops being someone else's fault and starts being your own

[@jesseseva2219]

​@@logangodofcandy did he have a choice? How different is his and sanguinus situation? Was the angel in a much favorable situation to be able to stay as loyal as he did?

[@TheRealSoldatmesteren]

Didn't Guilliman fight and possibly kill Alpharius in 2nd or 3rd Edition ?

[@Samael2513]

What about Omegon?

[@dennisbendixen7138]

I am actually amazed that he cant see the value of Alpharious tactics

[@anthonycampos7417]

Its worth noting that Corax also didnt really love Horus. Not just Vulcan

[@Lienhardismus]

i like your videos but thank the emperor that i am able to increase the speed to x1.5 you talk in super slow motion my man 😂

[@tigeriussvarne177]

We march for Macragge!

[@koopapoopa22]

Guilliman talking to Angron is like your corporate middle manager telling you something about your job when the biggest difference between you and them is that you actually do the job and they take the reward. Moral high-ground versus what's actually being experienced. Yes, it's personal. More like Gayman.

[@andrewwightman8066]

Gulliman bloody boy scout would loved to give been there when leman told him what he could do with his codex I'm sure menny a space wolf made good use of it I can't imagine TP being high on the requisition list when it comes to resupply I heard tell of a space wolf saying how soft strong and thoroughly absorbent he thought the codex was! Lmao...we need TP for our bungholes! My space wolves are without TP we need more copies of the codex!😂

[@OceanLily]

Dude Ferus was jealous of him. You didn’t read what Ferus was thinking was the complete opposite of what he said to Fulgrim😂

[@KhorgosKhul]

"Plans to take out his brothers" Gets bodied by Angron, Mortarion and Fulgrim 😅😂

[@betternamepending9543]

I dislike the argument that Konrad, Angron, Mortarion, etc. never had a chance because they grew up on such terrible planets. Yes, their home planets were terrible places to grow up on, but the same is true for plenty of loyalist primarchs. It's just that the loyalist primarchs tend to be those who land on a terrible world and make it a better place. Even Guilliman, who probably had the best start out of all primarchs (yes, definitely way better than growing up with the Emperor), grew beyond the minimum required to thrive on his home world, when he decided to let the senate deal with Konnor's murderer instead of just killing him outright and when he used diplomacy instead of violence to add planets to the Ultramar empire before meeting the Emperor. Angron and Konrad never grew beyond the savagery of their home worlds, even long after they joined the Great Crusade.

[@dynamicheatwave9949]

konrad was mentally ill. angron REally didnt stand a chance. morty is morty

[@rossgadsby9663]

I think Mortarian I definitely agree with. But Angrons situation is particularly fucked and basically nobody showed him any sympathy or gave a shit at all. They were all kinda just put off by him

[@fedupN]

This. Lion, Russ, Corax, Vulkan, the Angel, Ferrus Manus, and even Dorn (ish) all grew up on various levels of horrible and DIDN'T blame the universe for their failurea to grow once given purpose, authority, and brotherhood.

[@peterlepper5199]

To be scrupulously fair to Mortarion, he was *trying* to make his homeworld a better place, and almost succeeded. I don't particularly like him either because of his wildly prejudiced views about Psykers, but let's at least be fair.

[@minhducnguyen9276]

​@@fedupN When Gulliman accused Lionel of going too far with nuking planets, Lionel responded by asking how many planets did Gulliman raze to the ground in his conquest and Gman told the exact number, which is surprisingly low. Even Lionel had to accept that he can't project his genocidal tendency on Gulliman. And I doubt any traitor primarch can remember how many planets they have glassed when things didn't go their way.

[@fluffmma9076]

🎉🎉🎉🎉

[@HarryVoyager]

Guilliman is a god of war. Vulkan is a pure Paladin. They will respect each other greatly, but rub each other the wrong way without understanding why.

[@josephcahill5078]

Dam. Never been this early before

[@BJWFenix]

I find it odd for Guilliman to be so fond of ferrus simply because Ferrus was by far the meanest of the loyalist primarchs before the heresy only angron and the world eaters were more war crime and massacre happy (kurze and the night lords did worse things in a pocket but not on a wide scale) and he turned the iron hands worse from joining them. But hey every group needs a hardnosed bastard and he was abosloutely a harh but effective weapon of the imperium.

[@dil09ful]

Corax didn't like Horus either. He always felt Horus was too pious.

[@starc.]

papa smurfs onions

[@mbp1652]

Let's go

[@thalastianjorus]

While I do find the story of Angron to be absolutely heartbreaking? In this conversation with Guilliman I find myself not agreeing with him. At all. True, he fell onto a civilized world (technology, for the most part, equal to modern Earth), and as such it would have been extremely difficult for Angron to rise up to take over his world. Especially as he had been captured/enslaved while he was a heavily wounded, exhausted child. I get that a lot of people like to try the fling the "ha ha he was the only that didn't take over the world he landed on," but that is pretty stupid. No Primarch could have taken Nuceria down on their own. I think too many people have this idea in their heads that almost all worlds that were still not part of the Imperium were all backwater, semi medieval worlds. All of this said - Angron was given a second chance to try and _be_ something, or even simply to try and live a worthwhile life with the time he had left. Being given commands of his sons, in the hopes that they might lessen the burden on his heart - caused by the deaths of his old friends. His response? Murder any one of his sons that even tried to approach him... Order them to attempt the impossible, and force them to beat each other to death when they failed... etc etc. While Angron had many good reasons to be jaded, cynical, and even angry. However, instead of even attempting to handle his emotions, at all, he simply doubled, tripled, and quadrupled down on his anger and hatred. While the nails were the reason for the bloodlust that filled Angron - only his piss poor attitude and mindset were the cause of almost every single thing that Angron complained about his entire life in the Crusade and Heresy. Basically every time Angron spoke, to anyone, all he had to talk about was how he was wronged in the past, how people had begun to dismiss/tell him to move on from that wrong, how few people liked or respected to him, and so forth. It never occurred to him that the reason people people were telling him to move past his past was because it had been over 200 years. He never considered the fact that people did not respect him was due to how he treated literally everyone around himself. TL;DR: Angron was a self absorbed a××hole that treated everyone around him like crap. He, then, couldn't understand why no one liked him. Because no one liked him, he used that to justify unleash Chaos onto the galaxy. He caused every bad thing that happened in his adult life, but refused to take responsibility for any of it.

[@atomiclizard459]

Im here

[@Theobserver6897]

I AM SUPREME!

[@draganjovanov4933]

Angron won this war of the words against Blue boy. Not gona lie.

[@isaacfreeman1]

Hey! My KZbinrs are mixing.

[@maciekwilkosz6377]

I belive Guilliman snapped at Angron largely because of what he and Lorgar did to the people of Ultramar. This was Guilliman boiling with anger, just after witnessing Calth firsthand. Having said that Angron might have a tragic backstory, but he's still an asshole. Even to his own legion. P.S. Rho you stated Vulcan was the only one who didn't like Horus. What about Corax ? He despised him for callously spending the lives of his sons.

[@madginger3634]

Lmao ReBatman Guilliman

[@0rurin]

*would HAVE

[@redaerf2b414]

I think that with Angron GW made a very sloppy job. Back in a day they didn't intend to give him any personality beside "red angry demon-dude with axe" and so his basic canon that BL had to follow was crappy. I prefer to think that Angron was healable, but when Emperor took him, Angron did a moronic thing and never bargained with big E about helping him and his gym buddies to fight the war. He was like, "bring me back to die or I will be all angsty genZ "dead inside" primarch. So E was "lol, your nails will still make you want to chop-chop, so I will just drop you were I think is a chopping deficit"

[@jacobwalsh1888]

Angron is victim mentality writ large. All he does is whine. My favorite scene is when he is humbled by the pure rage of Sanguinius, and he begs for mercy.

[@BobbleWorld]

Corvus also didn't like Horus

[@Freshbreadthe2nd]

Corvus hates Horus