Rocket Powered Medieval arrows vs Armour!

For excellent replica medieval goods visit todcutler.com
Rockets were used in the eastern world for warfare from at least the 15thC, but not in Europe. However we used them a little in the 16thC, but not fitted to arrows....
I am certain someone would have tried it, so now it is my turn. Let's make medieval style rocket powered arrows live again! But how do they perform and why might they have wanted them? There is only one way to find out and that is to make some and try them out for real.
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For Tods Workshop and Tod Cutler merch including Running man targets, t-shirts etc. todcutler.com/...
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Fire Arrows film - • Real Medieval Fire Arr...
Arrows vs Armour Playlist. • ARROWS vs ARMOUR - Med...
Arrow data
Type. weight. V at launch. V at 60m. E at 60m. Mom. at 60m Distance
Untethered arrow 90gm. 44ms. 35ms. 55J. 3.15kg.m/s. 200m
Dummy rocket arrow. 128gm. 32ms. 13ms. 11J. 1.7kg.m/s. N/A
Live rocket arrow 128gm. 29ms. 74ms. 350J. 9.5kg.m/s. 490m*
*estimated
Speculative numbers based on estimated speed at 90m
Type. weight. V at launch. V at 60m. E at 60m. Mom. at 90m Distance
Live rocket arrow 128gm. 29ms. 95ms. 578J. 12.2kg.m/s. 750m*
*estimated

[@dashrendar5320]

The video I never knew I wanted, but desperately needed

[@DH-xw6jp]

Rocket arrow launched from a 160 lbs monster? First arrow in orbit?

[@laurentmarie5580]

Y agree !!!!

[@matthewmccalister5594]

This is how I feel about almost every video on this channel! I continue to learn so much and yet, Tod still manages to surprise me with the most (seemingly) random and epic videos!

[@grayshadow1856]

Make the collab happen!

[@tods_workshop]

Thanks for dropping by Dash and glad you enjoyed it.

[@JUSTSOPISSEDOFF]

I do believe reason number one might have been the most important reason to do this kind of thing. Well done sir.

[@Vox_Nihili]

How does this channel just keep getting better

[@LuxisAlukard]

By living our craziest dreams!

[@tods_workshop]

Thanks and glad you enjoy it

[@bhaughbb4239]

Compelling reasons... "because it's fun" And you have sold me on this video and idea.

[@戰國春秋]

Mr. Tod, can you try putting a counterweight at the place where the nock normally is (nail something into the arrow shaft), and test its result (flight stability)? That's how Ming Chinese did to improve accuracy, among other things. And yes, combine it with the fire arrow a few episodes back too for that matter, to make a complete historical package. Also, the high arching salvo like that Korean hwacha was most likely for spectacle, or perhaps modern people got too influenced by faulty Hollywood longbowmen raining down arrows and replicate hwacha the same way. Rocket arrow, like its unpowered counterpart, is best being shot straight forward.

[@podgem-l4t]

Yep, counter balance and increase the size of the Fletching until It resembles rocket fins, like Tod says, "they weren't stupid" they understood aerodynamics from the perspective of arrows/ bolts and shur a day modern rocket is essentially just a BIG Arrow going Really Really Really Fast

[@LarryGarfieldCrell]

"How could I resist?" Please don't resist. For our sake.

[@tods_workshop]

I like not resisting. Made another fun one with the trebuchet the day after......I couldn't resist that one either

[@acethesupervillain348]

Have you heard of the Huolongjing? "The Fire Dragon Manual". Compiled in the 1300s, around the time of the Hundred Years War, illustrated guide to black powder weapons in China at the time, mostly bombs, rockets, spurt tubes and fire lances.

[@lotoreo]

is that the one with all the illustrations, with just black ink on "white" paper?

[@tods_workshop]

I have now! Thanks and that sounds fascinating and just popping off to try and find it. Rats - can't find a copy. Does anyone have a pdf they would like to share?

[@callumbrown9259]

@@tods_workshop i did a quick search and the library of congress has it as a pdf, but in the original chinese, so you might have to get someone to translate it!

[@peasantmob1712]

Rocket powered arrows were used in massive quantities in China and Korea (Nest of Bees, Hwacha, Fire Carts), where gunpowder was cheap (at least in China) as all the ingredients can be domestically produced. No need to shop ingredients from other countries in order to make gunpowder. Secondly, things like the hwacha and the fire cart aren’t slow to reload, at least not when compared to a musket. The reason is that when one frame is fired, they replace the entire frame with another frame that’s already pre-packaged with fire arrows. They don’t need to insert new fire arrows one by one into the frame. It’s like the Nest of Bees, when you fire one bundle you just grab another bundle. You don’t package the fire arrows during battle, that’s done by the artificers before soldiers even march to battle.

[@tods_workshop]

Thanks and lots of content I didn't know - appreciated and sorry if I mislead at all.

[@Nick-gk6jc]

Wow, just wow. Many thanks for the upload and living life to the full!

[@tods_workshop]

My pleasure on both counts.

[@xXScissorHandsXx]

Saw a video up for Tod's Workshop, and then saw this and tapped so fast 😅

[@theapostatejack8648]

Giggling at the shared glee. Just the pick me up I needed after today.

[@koenigdergarnelen]

I love the pure glee in this video! :D It's really contagious! Thanks for that!

[@neiloflongbeck5705]

The psychological damage of such a weapon coming towards you is not to be overlooked. We saw that in WW1 with the first use of the tank.

[@DalHrusk]

Tanks did huge damage and were virtualy invincible. This just fly over and do nothing unless you use large quantity which would be expensive.

[@neiloflongbeck5705]

@DalHrusk when first used, the tank had a psychological impact on the Germans greater than the physical impact they had on the battlefield as none of their weapons appeared to have any impact on the tanks. Now, imagine seeing smoking arrows coming towards you for the first time and not knowing what they will do to you or howvto combatbthem?. They may not do much physical damage, but a weapon that can kill or injure you when out of range of traditional weapons will strike fear into the hearts of those that face them. Arrows needed to used in bulk to be effective.

[@Kradlum]

That opening shot is amazing! My son is playing a play station game loosely set around the Mongolian invasion of Japan, and there were Hwacha in the game. He thought they were a fantasy invention, but I told him they were real, if a little anachronistic for the period of the game, and invented by the Koreans.

[@activeentropy]

He's most likely play ghost of tsushima, just started playing it myself. It's a great game.

[@matthewmccalister5594]

I KNOW it's about to get epic when Tod is giddy about the experiment! Thank you for creating some of the best content on the internet, Tod.

[@matthewmccalister5594]

750 meters?! Imagine a whole army of soldiers shooting these rocket arrows at 500m away from their enemies! Terrifying!

[@tods_workshop]

Thank you - very kind

[@decay79]

Always a pleasure watching a man loving his job this much :) A very interesting video as always.

[@giannapple]

Excellent as usual! 👍

[@professorbash]

I would like to see what hussite era firearms could do to plate armor.

[@manchagojohnsonmanchago6367]

Make holes in it. They were quite large calibre ..

[@borjaslamic]

He might need a couple of licences before that, but I'm all for it.

[@Justice-ian]

I especially enjoyed the cost-benefit analysis at the end. In that vein, it would be interesting (if somewhat more difficult, especially given your restrictions) to compare the damage vs. using a conventional crossbow to launch a grenade containing the same amount of blackpowder.

[@alltat]

A black powder explosive that small won't really do anything against an armored opponent.

[@tods_workshop]

I agree with altar, it would require quite a bit to seriously endanger an armoured fighter, but eye will always be vulnerable

[@johnjapuntich3306]

You gotta do the stinkbomb!

[@thelegendaryklobb2879]

But how do we quantify the stink into numbers?

[@tods_workshop]

if it makes me pass out or retch its a goody

[@johnjapuntich3306]

@@tods_workshop I'm imagining you and Matt doing this video and gagging, retching and laughing! Could be epic!

[@czeckwarrior2230]

Rocket Propelled Arrows. Lmao

[@euansmith3699]

RPG: Rocket Propelled Goose-feathers!

[@czeckwarrior2230]

@@euansmith3699 Rocket Propelled Goose-feather Fin Stabilized Armor Piercing Arrows. RPGFSAPA

[@euansmith3699]

@@czeckwarrior2230 😄😄😄

[@seancollins3711]

Just watched the first shot, wow that was SO cool!

[@JeffBilkins]

Accuracy would be less important if it has the chemical/incendiary load from earlier. And maybe a little bigger so you could lob fiery stuff a few hundred meters and over the defensive lines or walls.

[@TheAsj97]

Yeah, and then you could even make the load even bigger if you make a better launcher for it, and you could even get rid of the rockets to eliminate the innacuracy. Oh wait, that's a catapult.

[@elricthebald870]

And who really cares if you hit this guy, or one ten metres left or right.

[@ootsumiriku]

Besides that, you were supposed to use a car that let you shoot a lot of them at the same time

[@EriktheRed2023]

Brilliantly barmy, and I love it! 😆

[@ilcattivo13]

Thanks, Tod, You've made my day. Again :)

[@conmcgrath7174]

Hey Todd , I'm so jealous. Great vid, who cares if it's practical or not, damn good fun! Here's a suggestion (feel free to add rocket motors if you want) but how about a crossbow bolt with 'mini-wings' just like modern gliding bombs? Surely that's worth a try? Lots of room to experiment as in, wings behind the head or further back , varying degrees forward of the balance point. You might have to adapt a crossbow to fire them (if only you knew an excellent weaponsmith?) but I think it is easily enough done and might give significant range increase. Do it, do it oh please do it, you know you want to. Respects.

[@raut4706]

Great video as always!

[@Loki_Firegod]

I had hoped you'd try rocket powered arrows ever since a few years ago I learned that these were actually a thing. I know the accuracy vs a single target is propably appauling, but the pure psychological effect of having a few of these against an army would be devastating. Similar to very early firearms - they weren't precise, a lot of the time they didn't work at all and quite often, they'd blow up on themselves. But they were really loud and they made a fireball and smoke and everything - for people who hadn't been confronted with them before, it'll have felt like the legions of hell were attacking. Anyway, great video!

[@EepyGirlLava]

Only a few minutes in but thank you for mentioning the Hwatcha, even if it wasn't the most practical, it is absolutely one of my favorite seige weapons from really any period.

[@NoFormalTraining]

I'd never heard of that before, but I have seen similar looking more modern versions so to speak from around WW1 onwards. I'm going to look up the Hwatcha but my first assumption is that even if it wasn't accurate, it must have caused terror once it was fired! Probably wound up making people break ranks or sent horses into panic mode!

[@EepyGirlLava]

@@NoFormalTraining Oh absolutely, I'd highly recommend looking into it more, they are incredibly interesting, and it was likely one of the more terrifying weapons to have fired upon you, I'd likely rank it somewhere near a flaming trebuchet boulder or worse. I'm actually curious, what more modernized WWI versions do you speak of? I am unfamiliar with the time but would love to learn more!

[@DH-xw6jp]

I tried making a miniature Hwatcha as a child, using bottle rockets and taped together drinking straws (as the carriage), I didn't know what it was called, I was trying to imitate the surface to air missile pods the military uses. It was a disaster. As soon as the first couple fired off it knocked thing over and started spitting the rockets across the ground, mom was not pleased.

[@euansmith3699]

I wonder if the arrows from the Hwatcha used whistling rockets. I think that might amp up the terror effect.

[@thejackinati2759]

If practicality is a must, the Chinese had man-portable wooden boxes that held anywhere from four to twelve rockets. They could either used singularly or you could stack multiple of these boxes and fuse them together to create a large barrage of hundreds of rockets. For siege defences, they had double-ended rocket-launcher tubes that were lowered down the walls as they were lit, releasing as many as 60 rockets from both ends, each of these rockets tipped with poison on the head. That is some scary stuff!

[@fakjbf3129]

Imagine going up against a massed block of infantry and your archers loose a volley up into the air and right after they hit their apex and start coming back down the rockets kick in. Now instead of falling only with the force of gravity they would be hurtling towards the ground at tremendous speed. Very impractical with the added complexity and shortened range plus extremely difficult to pull off the precise timing, but it sure would be an awesome sight to see.

[@lorenrogers9269]

Yikes!

[@robertkalinic335]

Utter nonsense, so you shoot heavy slow arrow and then right after the apex the engine kicks in and expands your ballistic curve into the next county.

[@Crimsonfangg]

The trick is to get the enemy to hold the line while you fire.

[@V3RTIGO222]

I think the cost VS accuracy is such a big factor, the most powerful weapon is useless if it cant hit any enemy. That said, guns emerged as well and not only had more energy and range, but superior accuracy to a rocket arrow.

[@edcrichton9457]

Before rifled firearms became the standard the smooth bore firearms had abysmal accuracy. We're talking 30 yards maybe in ideal conditions.

[@Yandarval]

There is also the variabilty in the rockets. Quality control of powder and rocket would have been functionally none existent. Firearms would have been more forgiving about poor powder.

[@cleanixx5343]

@@edcrichton9457That’s heavily dependent on load, ammunition and the shooter. There’s videos of people shooting well maintained smooth bores to 100 yards. It’s perhaps always been the exception but it is possible

[@decay79]

I mean enough of them, fireing out at a field, you mention guns, but the early guns had little to no accuracy, sure plenty of power, but it was more about luck than anything.. If this came a few years before i could see it having a role, but still i think it also comes down to a slower rate of fire, you have to take your time with these..

[@davidkgreen]

Would not be a pleasant experience facing these weapons.The terror factor would be huge.

[@zalom1modur]

Ah yes, the Trebuchet. The perfect pole to tie a line to

[@podgem-l4t]

Many times in life the solution requires a Trebuchet

[@johnm2051]

Fantastic,I love it 😊

[@rntankie4922]

Simply Yes

[@qwertyuuytrewq825]

That's looks as Mythbusters but Adam and Jamie were combined into single person )

[@ludecom-cz1wz]

We have arrows and rockets. Hold my beer and watch this.

[@ahoosifoou4211]

that was awesome. felt like i was watching a fireball spell

[@Couponuser16]

Tod! Awesome video! This is actually a really helpful piece for me, I've noticed that there are Chinese claims that siege artillery employed by the Mongols in the 13th Century (Triple Bow aka San Gong Chuang Nu 三弓床弩) was capable of throwing a spear sized dart 1.5km. Needless to say, modern reproductions haven't generated nearly enough speed even with fairly powerful prods. A thought that I've seen suggested and one that I'm becoming more receptive to is that those 1.5km ranges aren't exaggerations; they are evidence of gunpowder turning these into rockets instead of bolts. Awesome video that certainly seems to support this as possible.

[@tods_workshop]

I struggle to see how a conventional bow of any type could shoot 1.5km , but interesting thoughts

[@misterv4462]

Even though the arrows wouldn't have been accurate, the mental distress that would have been caused by them flying every which way, and the noise and smoke, probably would have been huge.

[@tods_workshop]

Agreed - in retrospect I probably underplayed the intimidation

[@jamesj4827]

Tod, this might be stupid, but what about about sizing it up to your fletched spear size? Maybe using three moters at angles to create spin Would that be more accurate in terms of massed infantry use It would certainly be terrifying to see/hear a bunch of them coing at you, and the cost seems little more than the individual arrows Better yet, a fire bolt of that size shooting into a city/castle from a range you are untouchable by anything the enemy has to set fires inside

[@cameronwebster6866]

Getting multiple motors to light at the same time is a huge pain without electronic ignition, and if one or m0re motors ignite late or not at all, the you have no idea where the arrow will go.

[@danzigrulze5211]

How demoralizing would it be to be a man at arms and see your lord with the best armor with a arrow/bolt sticking out of his armor and knowing that you are about to get hit with the same thing, but in volley. That is just insane penetration.

[@Einygmar]

I think it'd be possible to make rocket powered arrows more accurate using spin stabilization similarly to how modern unguided rocket artillery does this. The simplest way to achieve this would be to split the rocket motor in two and mount them at a slight angle.

[@tods_workshop]

A good idea, and although I have not tried it, my suspicion is that with inevitable discrepancies between two craft made motors the ability to make them balanced would be tricky

[@podgem-l4t]

Sounds like the 'Gyrojet' rocket pistol, the self contained round had holes as you described, but even with 20th century maths and manufacturing they had a hard time making it work

[@styxspeedrun]

9:30

[@RijuChatterjee]

Do you build all your test setups yourself? Really appreciate the amount of work that goes in behind the scenes, which many other youtubers would make a much bigger deal of xP

[@tods_workshop]

Thanks and yes I do make all the set up gear and often the items front of camera too.

[@kuronosan]

I can imagine using this rocket and string setup to light preplaced explosives/ other flammables

[@frederickheard2022]

This is all very exciting, but what we really need is for Todd and Matt to discuss the backup dancers’ use of half-swording in Chapelle Roan’s VMA performance 🔥

[@TheRaptorXX]

HELLUVA thing!!!

[@Lo-tf6qt]

If Kerbal Space Program has taught me anything, it's that you gotta make stick at least 3 or 4 rockets on the arrow to make it somewhat stable

[@CorwynGC]

I don't think you should neglect the impact of intimidation. Marching across a field with my comrades who can shoot a bow 200 yards, and getting peppered by FLAMING arrows from 700 yards; even if none hit, I am going to rethink my life choices.

[@TheAsj97]

The only thing you'd think is confidence in winning the battle, given that the enemy general chose to use a weapon that always misses its target. Flaming arrows weren't a new thing either, they all knew it was good for sieges but lousy against even simple armor. You're vastly underestimating these soldiers' intelligence and morale.

[@CorwynGC]

@@TheAsj97 As a soldier I wouldn't expect any hits from 700 yards. Hit rates aren't great even at much closer ranges. Crossing that distance while continuously under fire and not able to return fire would be daunting. As a conscripted peasant the situation is even more severe. My officer has convinced me that we are the better army, this blows a smoking hole in that belief

[@tods_workshop]

Thanks for highlighting this and in honesty I did probably underrate the intimidation factor. The other is that of course if the bodies of men you are shooting at are big enough then accuracy is not too much of an issue.

[@ArmouryTerrain]

It would be a tadd unsporting, but imagine a bunch of chaps had invested your castle in a seige and set up their command tents and any powder magazines at a safe distance. Then during the night, some dastardly knave was able to actually hit something important with these rocket bolts?

[@davea6314]

The Mel Brooks comedy movie "Robin Hood Men in Tights" has a rocket arrow. 😂 Lol

[@beowulfsrevenge4369]

Houston, we have lift off.

[@podgem-l4t]

More like Hastings, we have a problem

[@mata6669]

This was a rocket fired video!

[@Artaimus]

I think getting a reading of the arrow with both rocket full and empty off the line would have been useful to more accurately figure out the amount of drag from the string.

[@tods_workshop]

It would, but it is just not safe to do it without a line

[@undefined40]

Next that "Patriot"-Arrow from "Men in Tights" please :)

[@gsestream]

you know warning is an suggestion to do it :) seems some kind of pre-black powder guns stuff. if the rocket motor head is the shape of an air foil, symmetric, blunt head. or even completely behind of the large crossbow bolt head. ballista rocket arrow. kinda like guided self-propelled artillery. an army is not supported by the enemy. army must be self-sufficient.

[@thejackinati2759]

For some reason I envision that you will have a 'European' take on the Nest of Bees? I would love to see it! It would also be cool (though I'm not sure about the legality) to see an attempt at a firearrow/rocket-arrow with a secondary tube filled with an incendiary or exploding mixture which can explode either in-flight or in the target. One of the common ingredients in Chinese gunpowder mixtures for firearrows/firelances involved mixing in some powdered Arsenic trioxide (White Arsenic), which is a scary thought.

[@tods_workshop]

Great ideas, but mostly not legal here

[@someidiot6545]

An understated drawback of the rocket arrow is the need to have fire. Its so easy to forget that without modern lighters or matches you would have to begin every battle by having your entire archer line up around lamps or braziers to light some slow match or something to set off their rockets. Not an insurmountable challenge, that's exactly what people did with matchlock muskets, but its just another straw in the cons column.

[@Doribi117]

You had me at rocket arrow, though question, wouldn't the addition of fins/ fetching help stablize/accuratize the flight?

[@ameezer8076]

This video should started with 'Let me show its features: ha ha ha '

[@JanoTuotanto]

Notice the safety t-shirt

[@jonathanbrooks4880]

I'd be interested to see it without the wire guidance. Assuming you can time it correctly I imagine the rocket at close enough range like you have here could still be viable. Combined with any of the resin fire arrows from your video you could even use the rocket advance the range of the weightier specialized arrows.

[@justskip4595]

I seem to remember some youtuber who makes videos like this, maybe it was you, thinking about rubber for medieval time and could they have made it out of dandelions or some other plant in europe. Think the comment was made in winter and said that might try doing it next summer. I think Tod would likely have best shot at trying to make rubber out of european plants with technology medieval people had. Might also be too much messing about and waste of time, but that would be a result too.

[@tods_workshop]

Yes that was Jorg Sprave on my channel. I would love to try, but it seems like a lot of dandelions.

[@Tareltonlives]

I would imagine they'd be best against horses and elephants- it's terrifying to people, but even worse for animals who hate that kind of noise and smell.

[@Mamenber]

I think an untethered rocket arrow would wobble a lot, which would certainly waste energy. But I'm not a physicist, so I don't know how big of a factor it would have been.

[@skipper409]

Massed longbows firing these as a distance weapon seems like it should have been a thing

[@Squad23jta]

Loved the video, always interesting. Next time stick the rocket arrow(s) in a simulated cannon barrel, a good old steel tube, and see if goes anywhere near what you are shooting at. 😀

[@tods_workshop]

hmmmmm. a plan may occur

[@DovahViking]

You just gave me a great idea for a game I'm working on *feature creeping intensifies*

[@robertlane6431]

So now someone needs to make one where the arrow shaft has a rocket motor built into it with a tethered friction ignitor inside the motor that can reliably start the rocket motor without the need to light it before its fired. I am imagining something that easily attaches to a bow with a cord or string that has something like a match head on the end that will start to burn when it is quickly pulled out while the arrow is on flight and ignites the motor. It would balance the arrow better and make it easier to use. The notch for the bowstring could be made to fall off along with the ignitor as it is pulled out of the motor to ignite it allowing the thrust to be unobstructed. Or you could even make slanted ports on the end of the arrow right before the notch to induse more spin like they did on the gyrojet gun way back in the day. With modern materials I think this could be done.

[@podgem-l4t]

Match Head is a much later invention 18/19th century I think

[@beepboop204]

time for coffee and vape... new Tod video!

[@euansmith3699]

Tod's pleasure is so cool to see.

[@papalaz4444244]

It would never go in a straight line without the string. It's like aiming a firework rocket lol

[@JIMA-Club]

Would be useful as scatter artillery

[@EldrichtKnight]

Should have fired 1 without the wire in an open field just to check if it would actually be that inaccurate. Inertia from the crossbow and the fletchings should keep it relatively stable

[@Lyrainthevalley]

I'm guessing Tod wasn't too keen on putting a rocket arrow through his neighbour's cow in the event that that proved not to be the case!

[@podgem-l4t]

​or firing a burning rocket into dry grass @@Lyrainthevalley

[@tods_workshop]

I had no idea how far it would go or in what direction and so there is no way to do it safely - sorry

[@wookie-zh7go]

"We're at 300 they can't rea..." *fizz* Run away! Run away!

[@bobrobinson1576]

Eureka! It works! Great! Now let's make it accurate. Errm......

[@LuxisAlukard]

Tod: "Do not try this at home!" Yes, I was just walking through my fields, wondering what can I do with modern crossbow, historicly accurate arrows, some small rockets and a a few square meters of bulletproof glass

[@tods_workshop]

whatever you do, don't do the thing you are thinking of!

[@LuxisAlukard]

@@tods_workshop To late, I'm already in hospital ;-)

[@EinarNikolaisen]

If they were shot at a cavallery charge, would the rockets have scared the horses and halted the attac?

[@SquidsEye]

Seems like it'd be really effective if only you could convince your enemy to hold onto a string beforehand.

[@MartinGreywolf]

I've been on something of a medieval alchemy kick lately, and so I have to tell you - they wouldn't have been able to do it. Everyone falls into the same trap here, imagining that medieval and renaissance tech is like chemistry, but it really, really isn't. The relevant theories (based on Aristotle) are all horribly and utterly wrong, so no one who is making these things really knows what they are doing. That in turn means that even a relatively simple set of instructions, such as making gunpowder, is flawed by people not really knowing why it works. We can now take saltpeter and refine and purify it because we know what we want and how to separate it, but for a medieval recipe? It may only work with materials sourced from one particular area (there is an alchemical recipe for amber glass that literally only works if you use stibnite from eastern Europe), the name of an ingredient can mean two or three different real world chemicals (hell, some older sources use the same word for brass and bronze) and so on. Compounding all of these problems, we have issues of purity - that sulfur you want is going to be of very varied quality, you don't necessarily know how to mix it evenly even then, and all attempts to solve this may be counterproductive (red sulfur was considered more pure in at least some treatises, which is... the exact opposite of how it works) Basically, you get recipes that are using ingredients that aren't consistent with uncontrollable levels of purity while having no idea what is really happening, but thinking that you do. For us, it means all of these modern-made rocket motors are several times more efficient, safer and consistent than anything that even the very best of the period workshops. I'm not sure if period workshops could produce even a rare rocket that would approach modern performance, but I'm sure that they'd have no way of knowing if they did short of using it. This obviously gets better as time goes on, mostly by virtue of trial and error and increasing standardization, but I don't know enough about the early modern era to know why rockets didn't catch on there. Sources: The Secrets of Alchemy by Principe (read this one first if you want to know more about alchemy), Summa Perfectionis by pseudo-Geber

[@tods_workshop]

HI Martin, I disagree I am afraid. Looking through Biringuccio and either the Master gunners handbook or the book of the firework (I forget which) they absolutely knew how to purify the required ingredients and what levels of purity they were achieving and that by 1400 they very much knew what they were doing to manufacture decent powder fairly reliably and reading these texts, they absolutely knew. Admittedly Biringuccio is later. However I do agree that the modern motors are undoubtedly more efficient and more consistent and apologies, as I overlook mentioning this. However for the record these motors are BP based

[@-Zevin-]

Spoiler for the video: It's genuinely stunning the level of energy the rocket motor created. At 95/ms we are in energy levels surpassing modern handguns in 9mm at point blank.

[@tods_workshop]

I know! - amazing numbers

[@rogerlafrance6355]

What we do know is that they fired arrows from early canons and powder. Was that fast enough to defeat armour before moving to lead shot and improved canons?

[@tods_workshop]

Not sure why they did this, perhaps it was just familiarity with another missile weapon, but yes a giant iron arrow would have done the job

[@LarryGarfieldCrell]

The difference between screwing around and doing science is whether or not you measure things and do math.

[@walkir2662]

...didn't expect RPAs...

[@darrinrebagliati5365]

Now imagine a 2 archer system: 1 to shoot the guide wire at the standard, the second to launch the rocket propelled arrow! With a flash and a bang all the mounted soldiers are dismounted by their flailing horses and stomped on. With many unguided flashbangs to come and intimidate the footmen. Great vid! Thanks!

[@TheAsj97]

So you'd have to have 1 extremely accurate archer to shoot a wire attached arrow, then get another archer to shoot a gimmick arrow that would still miss because the wire needs to be taught in order to guide your gimmick arrow (and it wouldn't be taught because the enemy you already shot wouldn't stand still). Also warhorses weren't as scared as modern horses, or you know, they wouldn't be able to go to war. Or you could just have that extremely accurate archer just shoot the enemy with an actual lethal arrow and not have to spend money on gimmick arrows that would never work in real life.

[@darrinrebagliati5365]

@@TheAsj97 absolutely, was just imagining the farce that it would be. Would make more sense to have flashbang arrows in a group of archers anyway. The first few times the horses wouldn't be accustomed to the bangs.

[@ET_AYY_LMAO]

Only reason I could see for something like this, is if you REALLY need volley fire and you dont really have an army...

[@johnyricco1220]

The main reason this works IMO is for dealing with horse archers. Humans get over fear of rocket arrows, but horses can't.

[@tods_workshop]

Good point - I hadn't considered horses

[@grumpybear5410]

Beer a rocket fuel for experiments. 😁🤣

[@Breothain]

"There is no evidence that this was ever done..." "Haha, obviously, it's a rocket on an arrow! But you're allowed to have a bit of fun messing around with made-up stuff, Tod." "...in western Europe. But they did do it out in the East." "WHAT."

[@tods_workshop]

Look up 'nest of bees', old Chinese weapon

[@JotBeAusDe]

I would rather see a video about what it takes to get through chain mail. Cause there are still so many people who think it only "helps" against cuts, maybe not even against axe hits and definetly not with thrusts.. but we are still talking about steele. You dont poke through it just like that. What would the "bending in" damage be?

[@tods_workshop]

I did some tests with mail during this film. kzbin.info/www/bejne/bZq4ZKRoaM96jpIsi=XczqwNJ7SpWei94b. I found the results amazing that it did so little against thrusts. Watch it and see.

[@hamshackleton]

You couldn't do it with your guide wire, but if they had used arrows wilth angled flights, so that they span, that might have given better stabilization, just like rifling with a bullet.

[@tods_workshop]

To a point, but the motor will always be offset

[@NR-rv8rz]

If a mass of ten thousand men are approaching then you don't need to be pin point accurate.

[@RealSeanithan]

Ok, so I'm not a knight: I wasn't trained to be a knight or do any knight things. Because of that, I don't necessarily know how I would react to things if I were a knight. That said, I can't help but feel that if I were a knight and someone shot a bolt at me, which stuck in my breastplate, even if it caused me no harm, I, knowing what I ought to expect from my armor, would poop right in my pants.

[@Sokar12345]

i have a feeling that their rocket motors wouldnt deliver as much thrust in such a small package as a modern one. so less thrust with more weight and drag is going to change the numbers quite drastically

[@podgem-l4t]

Bear in mind that Todd's hypothetical '15th century bunch of bored drunk engineers' are extremely well travelled and well read, they would be aware of Eastern rocket motors, which had been in development for centuries, and are not dissimilar to modern fireworks

[@tods_workshop]

I agree they are almost certainly not going to be as efficient, but this is the best I can do, but you are right the actual numbers would likely be less and I overlooked this - sorry

[@markusmencke8059]

More like „dead in the air“. 😉 Fun, though.

[@johnjapuntich3306]

What if you could somehow attach the rocket motor to the very end of the arrow? Not strapped to the side at the end of the arrow but actually attached at the VERY end of the arrow? Wouldn't that make if fly straighter?

[@tods_workshop]

I don't understand the physics, but apparently it would be unstable

[@lscibor]

Numbers are crazy indeed, but it seems to me that mass added due to the whole rocket system doesn't really help much with penetration... Ordinary arrow reaching 350J should really penetrate much further.

[@tods_workshop]

mass is mass.....

[@mjolnir4639]

What if you put a bigger rocket on a plumbata?

[@carterwalters5915]

Accuracy test!!!

[@foldionepapyrus3441]

Be curious if that guide tube and lashing is enough to stop the arrow exploding on impact the way they did so often in Arrows vs Armour - if all the energy of the arrow actually gets dumped into the target rather than into scattering bits of arrow shrapnel that sort of penetration may become rather common with regular shooting too. In AvA so few arrows actually delivered to the target much of their energy as they were always exploding I was from the title expecting some similar and perhaps even more spectacular self disassembly with all that extra energy. I'd also not rule out a practically functional rocket powered arrow that can hit the target - enough trials on the shape and casting the rocket motor's grain around the arrow shaft (or maybe around the arrow head) so the thrust and centre of mass/pressure are all in line for a straighter flight. Plus that would result in a weight and shooting experience more like a normal fire arrow... Definitely not going to be the mainstay of your army, as its just too expensive, too time consuming, probably has a rather short shelf life, is trickier to transport, but I've no doubt it could have been done. Might even have some real practical utility - signal arrows, maybe even written messages, or just setting the thatch on fire from a very safe distance...

[@tods_workshop]

Addressing the first para. I understand exactly what you are getting at and plan to make a film about it. But to put it simply; they could have made them not break, but they didn't and I have a feeling they wanted them to break. I have a theory......

[@foldionepapyrus3441]

@@tods_workshop Now I have another video to look forward forward to, when you get round to it. Nice tease that makes me wonder if your thinking matches mine, and just how you are going to show it on camera... Though I'm not so sure they could have economically made them really really likely to survive without running into issues shooting them from regular bows anyway - arrows in warfare are more a volume than quality game, so as long as they are good enough to be functional you'd rather shave a penny of the production cost and have an extra few arrows.