Rolex 1908: How do Breguet, Seiko & Omega Stack Up?

[@chandanh.s7924]

Bill you should make your peace with Silicon hairspring 😀

[@watchartsci]

Chandan, I'm not at war with silicon hairsprings any more than you're at war with quartz. I just prefer adjustable hairsprings made of transitional metals-Abraham Louis Breguet was a bigger influence on me than Swatch.😉 Take care, Bill

[@argilaga]

Thanks for the video! According to an article I found in Chinese media, the use of silicon hairspring in the 1908 is to achieve a thinner movement while maintaining accuracy standards. The metallic hairspring technology by Rolex uses overcoil geometry that inevitably increases movement thickness. In you notice, other features of the movement are also in line with the dress nature and low thickness: small seconds allows to arrange all the gear train in one single level and absence of date complication save some extra precious thickness.

[@watchartsci]

That may have been it, Argilaga, but my hunch is that they're market-testing it. Maybe they'll really move into silicon and have a Rolex Smart Watch. Take care, Bill

[@kojiattwood]

Is there any explanation from Rolex why they're not using the parachrom hairspring in the 1908? At the 22k price tag, I was frankly expecting much more, as there are better options (particularly in the pre-owned area) as far as dress watches are concerned.

[@watchartsci]

Hi Koji, I don't know if Rolex buyers in general care about those details and Rolex may have dumped them in the 1908 to get a reaction, but I do agree that the 1908 design hit the nail on the head. Take care, Bill

[@kojiattwood]

@@watchartsci Rolex buyers in general don't care much about dress watches as well (judging from sales of the previous Cellini line, which is a shame, the Prince is wonderful). Thanks for the great video!

[@wertj3977]

You liking spring drive but not the silicon hairspring has to be one of the most amusing things ive seen in a while 😂.

[@watchartsci]

Wertj, you missed the point. Quartz is silicon & oxygen. Quartz watches have always been more accurate than mechanical ones, and silicon has always been less subject to magnetic fields and changes in temperature than transitional metals. So if you like silicon, that's fine with me ... quartz regulators or silicon hairsprings- they're fine. Just not my cup of tea. Take care, Bill

[@Joe-xo3xy]

Regarding Patek and other swiss watch Brands alienating their current consumers This Rolex 1908 at the $22,000 price point fills the spot where the Patek Calatrave once was, is there a correlation here? As a side note, it is quite weird how brands start to market develop and move away from their current market or consumers in a particular price bracket, the Rolex OP and Sub have gone up significantly, even Tudor has increased pricing with the Blackbay, also JLC was of great discussion regarding their price increases. What is the Reason behind this Strategy anyways. It really hurt me when Patek became more inaccessible by moving the Calatrava from the 20,000 bracket to the almost 40000 bracket!

[@watchartsci]

Joe, it's not about the accessibility for guys like us. It's what they can sell. Let's face it, if you or I could sell the same $10,000 watch for $20,000 without any real modifications-we'd do it. But since we don't own a watch company, we have to devise other ways to find affordable horology. Take care, Bill

[@AbdulRWatches]

Thanks for the great comparison, I would take a Breguet over any Rolex in a heart beat, I don't know about GS or Omega for that matter. Thanks Bill.

[@watchartsci]

You know Abdul, for me it would be 'none of the above.' Not with a Lyrique as an alternative, but I do like the Breguet Tradition! Take care, Bill

[@russellalfonso2962]

I got into vintage watch collecting with an eye on dress watches; small wonder the 1908 has me drooling! BUT, at the same time I'm a traditionalist, so spare me the silicon hairspring, and give the 1908 with a real hairspring.

[@NoName-bb2pu]

I've bought mine, the white gold, black dial 1908, the best stealth watch in the business according to me. The movement finishing is definitely better than JLC, is it overpriced? Hell-yeah. This coming from an ex hater of Rolex, but dress watches are my weakness. Rolex did a good job here, Im sick of pumping money on resale disasters, this one is gonna make me money 5 years hence, no doubts, if the line is discontinued then I'll probably be swimming in money. Rolex is the king for a reason.

[@watchartsci]

It's a self-applied crowning by using a crown for a logo. If you buy a watch for investment ... you don't have to know anything about horology, No Name. Why not just buy stock? Take care, Bill

[@NoName-bb2pu]

@@watchartsci yep you can say I sold out, but barely anyone notices my JLC, IWC or NOMOS, this one gets spotted everytime.

[@watchartsci]

@@NoName-bb2pu who cares if they notice? Those who know will 😉

[@localheroEd]

Silicon and spring drive - what have you done with Bill! Great video, all nice watches with merit. The elephant in the room is the best was on your wrist 😉. Regards Ed

[@watchartsci]

I think the word is "slumming" Ed? Take care, Bill

[@darrenfry4695]

Hi bill ,love listening to your watch wisdom, one day I'll be in a position to buy some beautiful watches you talk about but im at the low end of watch collecting but ive just got a glycine automatic combat for very little money and im very happy with it ,but of course soon as you get one watch your minds on another Lol 😂. Anyway bill love watching your show.

[@watchartsci]

It's a wise man, Darren, who appreciates what he can afford. Enjoy your Glycine as much a a man with a Roger Smith watch. Take care, Bill

[@jimoathout7543]

I have a GS slga009 White Birch (2022). It nominally has a 5 day power reserve, but mine has run more than 6 days before it stopped. Last time I checked it my eyes were not fast enough to see any difference between the watch and the atomic clock app to which I set it. Accuracy is phenomenal!

[@watchartsci]

Whoaaa, Jim! If accuracy is what you're after it's hard to beat a Spring Drive short of a smart watch hooked into an atomic clock! Sounds like you get where you're going on time! Take care, Bill

[@obesetuna3164]

Hi Bill. In this day and age, everything seems to be about "sports watches". But silicon aside, the 1908 is certainly a very attractive looking piece. And having owned a few of their older models in the past, for what they offer, the De-Ville range has always been sadly overlooked.

[@localheroEd]

Totally agree. Think I’d prefer matching case and bezel on this De Ville but still very nice.

[@watchartsci]

Great design for Rolex, Tuna.... and an exhibition back with a skeleton rotor to see the movement. Take care, Bill

[@johnnyarsenault9124]

The 1908 Rolex is strange: when you go back in time 1908 automatic watches didn’t exist yet ( that I know of), the rest of the Rolex family have a cannon pinion which allows centralized: seconds, minutes & hours. For them to make a dial face similar looking watch as in 1908, to have seconds at the bottom is another mechanism completely than the centralized cannon pinion. Shock systems for watches also didn’t exist yet, yet this 1908 has a shock system. A bit like if you had taken an ETA/Unitas 6498-1 and put an oscillating mass to crank up the movement (which would be much cheaper). Bottom line: the Rolex 1908 doesn’t tickle my fancy. A vintage Tudor automatic would be much better for my eyesight! 🥰 Thanks Bill for this eye-opening segment ! (no pun intended)

[@kojiattwood]

All excellent point; in addition, the dial looks disappointingly flat, the observatory hands (which I usually love) look quite incongruous with explorer 1 style features, and overall it's a weird mish-mash of trying to design a vintage style watch using modern design principles. I much prefer the older Cellini line, in particular the Prince (which will always remain unpopular with the Rolex buyers, who are primarily concerned with sports watches)

[@watchartsci]

Hi John, there seem to be different attitudes toward watch collecting, and Rolex buyers are certainly a distinct group from those buying Independents and other brands like Seiko and Vacheron Constantin I would think. Take care, Bill

[@h111551]

I am not a Rolex sport watch aficionado but I love the 1908 and the Cellini catalogue. I find it sad that the Cellini catalogue could not develop traction in the market place.

[@watchartsci]

Of all of the Rolex watches, Howard, I've liked the Cellini Prince the most. That and the countdown mechanism in the Yacht-Master II. Take care, Bill

[@h111551]

@@watchartsci There are other nifty Cellinis besides the Prince. It is strange that Grand Seiko was able to generate so much enthusiasm about their watches and Rolex could not develop any meaningful reception for their very excellent Cellinis. Enjoy WatchTime NYC.

[@Javi_C]

I really like Grand Seiko Spring Drive watches, even though there are some that just dislike quartz. Each their own I guess. Thanks Dr.!

[@watchartsci]

If you want accuracy, Javi, you have the right watch. Take care, Bill

[@pmimagery1295]

These were all very great watches. I quite like the one you wear in the video.🤓

[@watchartsci]

PM, thanks. My watch is a Vacheron Constantin Histories American 1921. Hand-wound and no silicon! Take care, Bill

[@pmimagery1295]

@@watchartsci Wow! I like to see more of this watch.🤓

[@jameshoward9700]

Great to see watches with movements outside the box. I think advanced materials have a lot to offer watchmaking, but we all have our natural preferences (one day I'll have to adopt electric motorcycles and it makes me shudder!). But Spring Drive is such a clever movement. I have 1 in my collection and it's amazing (1 second a month!). I don't get the 1908 - it offers nothing we associate with Rolex (waterproof, steel - I'd look twice!) at the price of far finer competition. Like Breguet. The Tradition astounds - beautiful, but ALB would dig Spring Drive!

[@watchartsci]

Hey James, I think Louis-B would be blown away by an Apple Smart watch and wonder what people like me would want to stick with transitional metals and archaic technology. Take care, Bill

[@mell3109]

I seem to buy watches for different reasons and the responds are different each time. I.e. garden 2as h or sports = g-shock because tough ness is paramount. Then there is style I.e. because I like the look but this is of course where style over function comes in. So does it make sense dropping £12,000 on a grey market Rolex Datejust when I could go get a complex JLC? That’s also why sometimes I buy something because I like what’s inside it. So it’s a flexible thing with me. I would have all the watch you highlighted but for this different reasons. The Rolex is a lot of money for a 2 hander and a movement thst not exactly the best looking girl in the class! I would go German and try and pick up an A Lange S. due to the finishing.

[@watchartsci]

Mark, I have the same general view of watch-buying except I'm liable to buy a Dandy just for the AgenEse gearing! Take care, Bill

[@Joe-xo3xy]

@WatchArtSci-great work as always. There have been some much speculation lately that Rolex purchased Bucherer to destroy other brands and this brings me to the point that is closely related to you conversation; The advanced research center has Omega and Rolex as partners! and silicone technology, I think, came out of the effort. It made me paranoid as to why Patek dials starting to look like Longines Dials especially the newer advanced dials with lume. In the swiss watch Industry, history always repeats itself, this is very similar to the collaboration that took place during the quartz crisis. I keep saying that although we talk about competition, there seems to be a silence in the air regarding unity in the industry. The brands seem to be positiond in a way that they are in tiers and in my opinion, the room for competition is not as tight as it should. Sure there is the discussed or perceived rivalry between Swatch and Richemonte, to what extent is it even a rivalry? ALl brands seem to also have their selling points and we did have the single trade show not so long ago.

[@watchartsci]

Joe, the move to silicon hairsprings was to save money from the production to the timing. Without interferences from magnetic fields or little adjustments, silicon hairsprings are ready to go from the wafer-sheet they come out of to the installations. The development costs may have been significant, but the myth that they are "more expensive" than a good adjustable hairspring from transitional metals is pure fiction. I'd like to be a fly on the Rolex wall to see if there's any argument within Rolex about replacing parachrom hairsprings with siloxi ones. I'm afraid there may not be and soon, Rolex will join the semi-traditional gang of watches coming out of Swatch and Patek. Take care, Bill

[@benzagorski4136]

I own a Brequet 7097BR tradition which is very close to to the watch you reviewed. It is looks better in person than it does in pictures. It is one of my favorite watches. I enjoy watches that makes you want to take a closer look at it. Brequet gets that done. I am with you. I like the Rolex 1908. My only problem is that it looks very close to other watches I own,. I have on my wrist right now a Blancpain Leman Tourbillion Big Date Limited to 50 watches in rose gold. For me it is dress watch perfection.

[@watchartsci]

The Blancpain Leman is a honey of a watch, Ben. Take care, Bill

[@xpdchief7698]

Great video Bill! Two of the watches really tickle my fancy, the Brequet Tradition and the Grand Seiko Spring Drive. I can't afford the Brequet, but I do own a Grand Seiko Spring Drive SBGA211 (Snowflake). The Grand Seiko is a beautifully finished watch using Grand Seiko's "Zaratsu" finishing technique. It is stunning. Thanks for the video. Best regards, Brian

[@watchartsci]

Hi Brian, Grand Seiko are superb watches, but for the most part they, and all of the watches stuffed with silicon hairsprings-primarily due to a corporate decisions from the likes of Patek and Swatch- seem soulless. We know that Daniel Roth has become a cranky old perfectionist and that our Lyriques have a history and interactions that we are familiar with to fractions of millimeters-and every one is developed with a soulful humanity... flawed as it may be. I know I'm beginning to sound like an old crank myself, but there it is. Take care, Bill

[@RHelenius]

Good watches are good watches. But I feel like buying a Oyster-case Rolex, is like buying a non-Royal Oak Audemars Piquet. They non-Royal Oak AP's are genius watches, and you can probably get a good deal on them. But when the heart of a brand is in a specific type of watch, I would look elsewhere... Omega is one of the few watch brands that does everything well, maybe also JLC. They both have "professional" watches, desk divers, desk drivers, dress watches, high complication etc. To me Rolex is mostly about the Oyster-cased watches.

[@watchartsci]

Yes, there are lots of great APs beyond RO, Rasmus. I had one, but it was too small for my wrist-however it was a beautifully crafted watch! Take care, Bill

[@TimG--]

They don’t !

[@watchartsci]

You've become so verbose, Tim! Take care, Bill

[@structurescience]

Bill, at 1:30 you say that you don't have anything against the functionality of silicone hairsprings, but then you fail to say what you DO have against them. At the end you compare silicone to quartz. Is that your objection? That it's a move back to quartz?

[@watchartsci]

Hey Structure, I don't have anything against silicon. Neither does the foundation that provides the Poinçon de Genève- silicon escapements are ok, but not silicon balance springs (hairsprings). Why not? I dunno ... probably because you cannot regulate them. So, I've got nothing against silicon hairsprings; I just don't care to have watches in my collection that cannot be regulated. I have nothing against quartz watches nor Smart Watches like the ones Apple has. They're great, and far more accurate than mechanical watches with or without silicon hairsprings. Take care, Bill

[@HRM.H]

One thing i like about Seiko is that they do everything. Quartz, SpringDrive, high-beat automatic's and ultra thin manualwind watches. No silicon hairspring either!

[@watchartsci]

Good points HRM. My Seiko 5 is my keeper! Take care, Bill

[@ref6122]

Im surprised Breguet would use silicon in their watches.I always thought of them as all about history and tradition,not going along with utilitarian considerations.

[@watchartsci]

Probably Swatch's directive, Ref. Take care, Bill

[@snowashesfilm]

Since I collected my FP Journe CS I don’t wear any other watch in my collection. They all look pale compared to this masterpiece.

[@watchartsci]

Yes, I too have a CS and enjoy it immensely. I like the heft of platinum. However, I do rotate it with other watches in my collection. Take care, Bill

[@wingman427]

Nice comparison. All really great watches. Would like the Omega a lot more if it didn’t have Roman Numerals and not totally sure about the Grand Seiko although they are gorgeous. For sure a lot of watch companies in New England are no longer in business, however one of the biggest in the world, Timex is in CT. I give them a lot of credit for there innovative business model.

[@watchartsci]

Yes, Wingman, the Timex HQ is about an hour from where I live. There's also a Clock and Watch Museum nearby in Bristol. Maybe I ought to see if I could get an interview with them?🤔 Take care, Bill

[@wingman427]

An interview at the Clock and Watch Museum would be an interesting video. Have been there many times, (grew up in Bristol).

[@webbezzy]

Interesting that they use silicon not silicone in their hairsprings.

[@watchartsci]

Why would they do that Webbezzy?🤔Take care, Bill

[@webbezzy]

@@watchartsci It appears that they are using the natural silicon (Silicon) rather than the man-made one (Silicone).

[@remus2001]

Bill, I’m curious: given that a free-sprung balance cannot be adjusted by manipulating the hairspring, are you personally skeptical of all free sprung balances, even if they’re not made of silicone?

[@watchartsci]

No David. Your top watches by top watchmakers have free sprung balances, but some have both curb regulators and adjustments by weights. George Daniels did not like curb regulators at all, and pointed out the advantages of free sprung balances. The finely adjusted curb regulators with swan neck adjustors are able to finely tweak a watch as are Jean-Marc Wietterecht's AgenPit regulators. With silicon hairsprings there's a possibility of using weight adjustments but none for spring adjustments. Take care, Bill

[@charlyvanbuuren2947]

For me the springdrive! Just because i have a lot of mechanical watches, a solar watch, digital quartz watches and a kinetic gmt diver. So springdrive because of the innovative technique in it and i don't have one yet...Greetings from the Netherlands!

[@watchartsci]

Well Charly, that makes sense to add a type of watch you don't have and you seem to like different kinds. I spent some time at the University of Leiden back in the 1970s. Enjoyed it! Take care, Bill

[@marcusrawlinson5024]

How does 15secs a month equate to 1sec a day, makes no sense. Another great post Bill, thanks.

[@watchartsci]

Sounds more like a half second a day, doesn't it Marcus? Take care, Bill

[@obud3777]

The new Quartz crisis!

[@watchartsci]

Hi Obud... this time, though, the Swiss are part of the problem. 🙃 Take care, Bill

[@obud3777]

@@watchartsci 😂

[@dr.davidmiller6682]

Quartz crisis….1970’s

[@watchartsci]

You're right Doc. I got my Bulova Accutron sometime in the 60's and I've always used that as a point where the crisis began, but it was from 1970 to 1983. Take care, Bill

[@pdxrick7804]

I think the Spring Drive is a pretty brilliant innovation. I also appreciate the co-axial movement. I have the fairly similar movement in the Omega Seamaster 300, which is a favorite of mine over say the Sub. (I do like the Sub no-date. But if I bought a Rolex it would be a Milgaus.) Some of the De Ville watches are pretty attractive to me. There is an annual calendar version in steel I would be thrilled to wear.

[@watchartsci]

Rick, while I appreciate the innovation of the Spring Drive, I'm still fascinated by the movement of the metal hairspring with the palette fork and snaggle-tooth escape wheel driven by a mainspring. Take care, Bill

[@blakestar4100]

Breguet blows it out of the water, Uncle Bill. The Rolex looks like a bootleg voutalinen.

[@watchartsci]

Yes, Blake, the Breguet Tradition would be a favorite of mine were they have a Straumann hairspring, and at $40,000 it should have, but it has the same hairspring as the cheapest Swatch. Take care, Bill