Eps 404: Lever Action vs. Bolt Action: Which is More Accurate?

[@Honoredmatres69]

Bolt action for business, lever action for style 😎

[@johnf3f810]

At 24 minutes you discuss the 275 Rigby. Back at the end of the 80s I was in Litts Gunshop and a guy was purchasing a rather nice Rigby 275 with a Zeiss scope. Unfortunately his Firearm Certificate (UK regulations!) stated he could buy a 7 x 57 so the boss wouldn't sell it to him! The sales person (far more knowledgeable) went out the back and brought back a box of genuine Rigby ammo. Result? The rifle was marked 275 Rigby, the ammo box was marked 276 Ridby and the cartridges in the Rigby box were were Winchester 7 x 57. Go figure!

[@taylerpark791]

Ron, I feel the need to share my recent pawn shop adventure i had with a couple of my buddies. I was looking for a 30-06 light weight rifle with scope because the rifle I've been using is a 1917 rifle un sportarized that was issued to my great grandfather in-between the wars they were phasing out the rife in favor of the m1 garand so they let him keep it. My grandpa passed it to me few years ago wich is really cool and I've taken it elk hunting a few times and its really cool to have but it's heavy and long, and I'd hate to take it out and have something happen to and have it get ruined. So I went pawn shopping and I found a ruger american chambered in 30-06 with a vortex scope for $400 I was able barter them down $340 and I bought it.

[@danquartullo8677]

Hey Ron you should do a episode on the 7.62 x 54R .

[@AldoSchmedack]

5:33 Ron, I can tell you why it has a radial shoulder. In mechanical engineering, I learned not long after I started learning you get *VASTLY* more strength to it. The same applies to the barrel and such, too. Not just the brass. A right angle is a weak spot, rounded is better. That is why half tangs on knives are also supposed to be rounded too, so they don't snap at the juncture.

[@RonSpomerOutdoors]

Also, I'll take your word for the added strength of the radial shoulder, but I don't think it matters in rifle cartridges because those radial bends are not required to stand up to pressure from above. It isn't as if the radial shoulders of a Wby. case are supporting a bridge over which trucks drive. A cartridge case needs merely to withstand the internal gas pressure of rapidly burning powder, and even that is supported by the steel of the barrel chamber. The fact that the vast majority of cartridges, including the newest Wby. models, do not utilize rounded shoulders suggests they truly do not contribute to ballistic performance.

[@BourbonisGood]

I recently purchased a 1961 model 88 Winchester in 308, great rifle.

[@larrymatherne6990]

@@FranzAntonMesmerHeard of the model 100 having issues, never the model 88.

[@BourbonisGood]

​@FranzAntonMesmer functions flawlessly

[@BourbonisGood]

@@FranzAntonMesmer shot it numerous times.

[@PatsCoachBob]

Congrats on Gundee Award for Best Outdoorsman!

[@RonSpomerOutdoors]

Thanks Pat. It's an honor to be so honored by the votes from my viewers and listeners.

[@csipawpaw7921]

When you mentioned locking lugs in the back versus in the front not being that important, it made me think of Paul Harrell's statement, "In real-world applications, there is not enough difference to make a difference." That statement applies to most situations. The times it doesn't apply is competition shooting or law enforcement, where accuracy can be very important.

[@cerviplays6691]

Now that I got my first gun (a Marlin 336A) i’m Hooked on lever guns and am trying to find a cheap Browning BLR that has the style of the lever gun and the accuracy and range of a bolt action, I think a 30-06 will work that way I can hunt moose and elk without getting closer than 75-50 yards with my 30-30, especially with a moose

[@open-debate]

Isn't it crazy that 30-06 cal is chambered in European Mauser rifles available in Europe and yet these American cartridges are getting abandoned by Americans... kind of symbolic to a a throwaway society yet in Europe all the old cartridges are still freely available, 7x57, 7x64, 8mm, 6.5x55 Swede etc etc etc

[@billyparker2630]

Hey Ron speaking of the .22lr being the most popular and some states banning lead i was browsing Norma's website and they have eco friendly.22 cartridges if I read correctly its a copper plated zinc bullet might be a good video idea to compare it to the all copper.21 sharp

[@jfess1911]

The 307 Win runs at the same chamber pressures as the 308, but drop gets pretty bad much beyond 200 yards. Winchester still makes 307 ammo with a 180 grain round-nose bullet, so ballistics charts can be found on their site. Zeroed at 200 yards (2.9" high at 100 yards), it drops 12.9 inches at 300 yards.

[@briandecker8290]

How does the leverevaloution work? Been trying to convince a family member to sell me his 307 but no luck yet

[@Marcus-jg4jb]

I don't think they're quite the same, but they're awfully close. Google suggests that the 307 is set for 52000 CUP (roughly 60000 PSI), the 308 Saami'd at 62000 PSI.

[@jfess1911]

@@Marcus-jg4jb The 308 is also 52,000 CUP and they are literally the same case with different rim sizes. The 308 just happens to have both listed while the 307 only has a CUP pressure limit. You are right, though, that copper units of pressure (CUP) and transducer numbers do not correlate precisely. For example, both the 308 and 270 Win are rated for 52,000 CUP, but when using the transducer method, the 308 is 62,000 psi and the 270 is 65,000.

[@Dm87509]

21 sharp would have still liked to see a upgrade vs a different version of the 22 lr

[@m1intense]

I've owned 2 very accurate lever action rifles. One was a Marlin 1895MXLR in 450 Marlin and the other is a 1951 Savage 99 in 300 Savage. Both were capable of regularly shooting 1" 3 shot groups at 100 yards. I regret selling the Marlin.

[@KellyWV]

Besides the 356, Winchester also made the 375 in model 94.

[@williambehrend5452]

Marlin also chambered them aswell

[@ryanderr3610]

Can you do a video on the 7x61 sharpe&harte

[@Morinehtur]

Does anyone have experience with the newer Montana Rifle Company's control-round-feed action? I heard they are under new ownership. I am partial to the classic look, but are the barrels picky with ammo like kimber 84?

[@bigbore4498]

I have a Marlin 444S that, with handloads, will shoot true cloverleafs at 100 yards off sticks. I have a Marlin 1895 JM in 45-70 that, with handloads, will shoot .6 CTC three shot groups at 100 yards. But every bolt action I own, Winchester, Remington, Ruger, Browning, Interarms, CZ etc, will outshoot my Marlins. Bolt actions are simply more accurate/consistent for a multitude of reasons. Higher BC bullets. Faster lock times.

[@rockie307]

Ive got a 1895 guide gun in 45 70 and when I had a scope mounted on it it shot one inch groups at 100 yards with barnes. I removed the scope and only have open sites now but when it had a scope it outshot some of my bolt actions. It was very load dependent, though hornady groups were 2 to 3 times as large as the barnes or buffalo bore for whatever reason didn't like them.

[@johnfish7144]

They called them a big bore M94 if I recall.

[@bonasa99]

Ron, I think you meant to say Hank Shaw, not Hank Snow. Shaw is a terrific resource on wild game cooking--Snow was a terrific country singer!

[@RonSpomerOutdoors]

Ah, right you are! Hank Shaw. Great chef. Great guy. Great cook books. Thanks Bonasa.

[@larrymatherne6990]

I’m a lever guy, have a number of bolt actions, but they are mostly safe queens. My most accurate lever gun is my Winchester Model 88.

[@jamesfrench7233]

The307 and the 356 would have been a huge success if it was brought to market in 1960.

[@jfess1911]

Hunters usually don't "wear out' barrels, but it can indeed happen. I have seen some ammunition test barrels where the first inch or more rifling has worn off. Oddly enough, some of those barrels continue to shoot small groups, even after some of the rifling is gone. The guys on the Hornady podcast talked about a test barrel the called "old faithful" which has some of its rifling gone. It was finally retired from test duty but remains as a keepsake.

[@brian770]

CIP also does NOT have 2 different standards for the .223 and the 5.56, the went with both as the 5.56 pressure, which is why on the CZ websight they say all CZ rifles chambered in .223 will gleefully handle 5.56 ammo as well. wonder why sammi did not do the same? would have saved a LOT of trouble. I can personally attest to this as i looked everywhere for a long (24") barrel 5.56 bolt rifle and NOBODY offers one except CZ, so i got the CZ 600 Alpha in .223 and have just past 1000 rounds through it, every single one was a 5.56 and it is perfect.

[@paulmartin6895]

You right about cooking. The hog and other animals. On some where I asked about it . They said to cook the meats of wild game fully with no blood or red you will have it to that you do not have to worry about the parasites. You right about eating wild hog . I was given 2 lbs and one as Chile and tge other lb in bugers . I love it teast better tgen regular hog.

[@buma8232]

Hello paulmartin6895, We hunt wild boar a lot here in Bavaria. Since the end of the 70's the monoculture (almost only 3 crops, mainly corn, then wheat and rapeseed) took hold) increasing the cultivated areas through small trees and removing groups of trees and bushes. As a result, we completely drove out some wild species that like exactly these small boundaries (pheasant and especially partridge). Since then, wild boars have multiplied a lot (since they find cover and food, especially in corn, for half the year) and, as with pigs, in contrast to ruminants, the more food they have, the higher birth rates. Be that as it may, the utilization of wild boar meat is very good here. Only in winter do you have to be careful here (since Chernobil), as the pigs dig up the ground more in the cold season, and regionally they regularly have increased radiation levels in the meat, which are no longer consumed after 600 Bequerells per kilogram and are discarded. In summer, where you can find enough food, this problem does not arise. Furthermore, every wild boar must be examined for trichinella, as the law requires. Actually an extinct disease/parasite, but fatal to humans. To do this, samples are taken from the heavily blood-supplied muscle from the forefoot and dwarf fur pillar, and these are available at collection points for veterinary doctors in every town. After a maximum of 3 days for the meat to cool down, you would receive a message if the meat was questionable. There is also the herpes virus disease Aujetzki, in wild boars, which is found in some wild boars, but is harmless to humans, but is absolutely fatal to dogs and cats within 3 days. There is no antidote for this. That's why our dog trackers are instructed when hunting that the dog is trained not to lick the blood or open wounds from the pig after it has been shot. Many greetings from Bavaria, and always good luck and good hunting.

[@funkla65]

Any lever action you can find which generally shoots as well as a bolt action, is probably internally a bolt action anyways.

[@CB-68-westcreations]

If you Get one of those fast twist barrels in a one in nine and chamber of 30-06 it'll work with those heavier bullets at long range just fine. I'm not taking that many long shots anyway, but they improved ballistics is worth it.

[@ronladuke7235]

I think the Blr action has front locking lugs like a bolt action?

[@RonSpomerOutdoors]

They do. Different versions based on the year of manufacture, but up front. Rotating bolt head.

[@richardminer1863]

Depends... if equally well made it is more about the barrel and bedding, chambering would be my guess.

[@33journeyman]

Weatherby cases were not for cosmetic purposes but rather due to the " Venturi effect" that greatly improved velocity while reducing pressure.

[@Vikingocazar]

And here I thought Roy Weatherby just dumped a shit ton more powder into a massive case to get more horsepower… and all along it was the Venturi effect… not, say, a third more powder.

[@33journeyman]

@Vikingocazar Yes , the case design did in fact increase case capacity as well.

[@RonSpomerOutdoors]

Roy might have been hoping for a venturi effect, but I don't think it contributes anything to increased MV. At the muzzle it might (necking down the flow to increase velocity.) But any bottlenecked cartridge is squeezing down the gas volume from the larger diameter case body already. I doubt that a bit of rounded shoulder/neck junction is going to change that. The fact that all other high velocity magnum cases succeed without double radius shoulders -- including the newest Wby cartridges -- supports this contention. In fact, most students of internal ballistics today find a slight improvement in cartridge efficiency with sharper shoulders that contain more of the unburned powder within the case for a more efficient burn -- or something along those lines. Thus the 30- to 35-degree shoulders on most new rounds of the last 15 years or so.

[@m444ss]

A low number of cases of food borne illness doesn’t necessarily mean the bug isn’t present. It could just mean that, in most cases, people use safe handling in the kitchen. (You wouldn’t eat raw a chicken, would you?)😊

[@Der-Oberst]

Bolt will always rule due to barrel length. Although there are a few longer barreled levers out there now which would be great.

[@RonSpomerOutdoors]

Traditionally lever actions had 24" and even longer barrels. The carbine versions became more popular.

[@open-debate]

Ron the .275 Rigby was not a real cartridge, I have in my Mauser collection a Mauser fully built in the U.K. and prooved at the Birmingham proof house, with full proof marks, in 1904 and had a action serial number of the manufacturing of an original Oberndorf Mauser action in the first year of 98 action and the rifle was not stamped in .275 rigby it was stamped in the UK with 7x57

[@jameswhitaker1324]

58:09 well, there is an issue of tissue destruction at close range. I know someone who took a 20 yard shot at a buck with a 6.5 Swede (Tikka T3, as it happens) and there was a tremendous loss of tissue near the wound he had never seen at 100 yards. Still, not sure you would necessarily choose a separate rifle just for close range. In his case, he would have been better off with his Glock 23 in .40 s&w. Almost any handgun would have done the same job with less meat loss at that short range. Even a .38 snub nosed revolver would have taken that deer handily. I guess maybe just carry the tikka along with a decent handgun to do the close range work without damaging too much meat. If you’re in bear country, you’re probably already carrying the handgun anyway.

[@RonSpomerOutdoors]

James, I think you're focused on the wrong instrument here. It's not the 6.5 Swede that caused the damage so much as the bullet. Which bullet was he using? I've taken game with bullet much lighter and heavier and faster with minimal meat loss. And I've gotten ridiculous blood shot meat with a couple of broadhead bow kills! Soft, frangible, soft bullets generally do more damage than controlled expansion bullets with close range (high impact velocity) shots doing more damage, too. Keep close shots behind the shoulder.

[@SVUBSIS]

If your life depends on it Bolt all day, I say that cause two different leavers failed me when counted the most.

[@oldschoolboyscout]

BLR Lightning. Long action short throw. Whether chambered for 243 or 300Win Mag the lever does not travel any farther. Slick as goose poo.

[@jaydunbar7538]

Hes wrong about 30wcf being about competitors not wanting to put winchester on their firearm, my winchester 94 has 30wcf on it lol

[@jfess1911]

He was talking about ammo and competitors. Winchester is proud to put 30WCF on its guns, although one of my Model 94's just says "30-30". Marlin, Ruger and Savage often stamped 30-30 on theirs and even the "Win" part off for a long time. It seems that gun companies were more picky back then. Then things got confusing because Winchester introduced other .30 cal centerfire cartridges like the 307, 308, and 300 Win Mag. Eventually there were lots of .30 Winchester Centerfires.

[@WayStedYou]

Why would Winchester be worried about putting 30 wcf on their own rifle?

[@anti8.6]

This would not matter today, firearm and ammo brands are owned by large parent companies and ownership is transferred so often that individual pride in a brand is meaningless now.

[@jfess1911]

@@anti8.6 There still seems to be a residue of it around. No one but Ruger, for example, chambered rifles for the 300 or 338 Ruger Compact Magnums (RCMs). The 6.8 Western was associated with Winchester and so far, only Winchester and its sister company Browning have made moderate-priced rifles for it. That last one may just have been a marketing failure, but when Hornady and, now, Federal introduce a new cartridge, they have assured that numerous companies are making rifles in it. On the other hand, Winchester's 350 Legend was a hit. Then again, it filled a newly created niche for straight wall cartridges with 1.8" or less case length. It helped that it also fit into AR15s, whose owners tend to burn through more ammo.

[@radagast6682]

I believe my Marlin 356 has better ballistics than the Marlin 338MX.

[@Perry2186]

to the guy talking about tradition in hunting were at the point now that the ones that used 3006 are old.. many hunters grandfathers used 308win so 308 would be traditional to them

[@carlsmith6861]

Ain't no snipers using lever actions

[@MrPh30]

Sad Newtons Lever bolt rifle was not built many of ,or Harald Wolf the same . A bolt with the quickness of a lever, call it the way the Lee Navy should have been, up to .505 calibers

[@robertmontenegro8384]

Absolutely. I have a 30-30 lever action and a 30-06 bolt action. The range and accuracy of my 30-06 is much better.

[@Perry2186]

Now compare it to a 30-06 lever gun

[@robertmontenegro8384]

@Perry2186 Don't have a 30-06 lever action. 🤷🏻‍♂️

[@dinoquintana4319]

America has forgotten the best leveraction ever desighned .the savage 99.i have 3 .a303 takedown ,a 250 savage takedown and 300 savage.after years of load development the are all moa,with apeture sight.the handling and balance on a 99 is unbelievable Gone but not forgotten

[@RonSpomerOutdoors]

You are correct.

[@HunterForEver12]

I just wanted to say something about trichinosis. It is true that some animals can be sick from this parasit, but I hunt and live in Europe (Bosnia and Herzegovina) and when we kill some wild boar, we are going allways to our vet who will take small peace of meat of that wild boar and check it with his microscope just to be sure that we eat healty meat and that all will cost you about 15$ which is for me more than cheap... I just don't need that risk in my life. Nice video like allways...

[@LuckyFalcon]

It appears that lever actions were not design for long range as the bolt action rifle have been.

[@anthonyjbargeman5280]

Ron my brother. I have never through the years gave called you an idiot. But I will STILL stand by my .30-06. I am a) comfortable with it . b) love my rifle. c) am just to damn cheep at my age to start over with some of these new calibers ... lol. Naww for real with the wide range bullet weights for such a wide range of game i am satisfied with what I have. Tell the wife hey and both of you be Blessed.

[@RonSpomerOutdoors]

Anthony, you continue to stand by your 30-06. You and I both know that it had done and can still do anything and everything a hunter needs to do with a rifle. Thank you. Yes, we have been blessed many times over and are most grateful.

[@open-debate]

24.02 - Factually incorrect... John Rigby was an Irish barrel(and rifle) maker originally had a shop in Dublin in 1775, Ireland he was not a englishmen.

[@HVSJR-n5q]

The lever action rifle has more moving parts than a bolt. Therefore it’s probably not as strong but less accurate in 99% of the time with a Quality lever using Modern Metals for hunting I wouldn’t believe it would be that much less accurate. The rest of the rifle meaning chamber and barrel is probably more of the issue.

[@JimYeats]

I’m just going to say it, $1000 dollars for a wool jacket is too much. I understand the durability argument, but the likelihood that you are going both A) continue liking the jacket and not wanting to move on to a different design, and B) that it doesn’t obtain unfixable stains, rips, or other injury is just so low that you’re never going to realize that potential 20 year “savings” in the upfront cost.

[@jameswhitaker1324]

Betsy, the 160 degree thing was never accurate, it has always been known to be 137 degrees. The fda and usda traditionally advertised 160 (which is way too high for some cuts of meat and too low for other cuts and cooking methods) but I have always suspected that they recommended that to account for inaccuracy in the old bimetal meat thermometers and inexperience of the average cook. Let Ron have a properly cooked pork chop for crying out loud.

[@lmbear]

Rhetorical question..

[@Vikingocazar]

Omg no one is coming after your 30-06’s!! It’s a great calibre. Horses are great too… but when I’m going on a trip I’d much rather drive a car than ride a horse.