Ep. 316 | The Three Tiers of Muzzleloading

Muzzleloaders fall into approximately three different buckets (Traditional, Inline, Extreme Performance). As simple as they can be, they can be equally complex. Mark Boardman, Jim Hamilton, Ryan Muckenhirn, and Paul Neess dive deep into each style and their distinct nuances. They even find a sweet spot of price and performance that’s tough to beat. Tune in for a detailed rundown on muzzleloaders.
As always, we want to hear your feedback! Let us know if there are any topics you'd like covered on the Vortex Nation™ podcast by asking us on any one of our social media platforms and using #VortexNationPodcast.
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[@bobc35]

PA Flintlock was great when I was in college. It starts Dec 26th, and runs till mid January. I'd be off the whole time from school and be in the woods most of the time.

[@45-70Guy]

That sounds like an awesome time. Being so late in the season the woods are so quiet and full of snow. Or at least up here

[@scotteger6271]

As a resident of Pennsylvania I can attest to what the woods are like at that time…very quiet and very empty. However it’s a time when the weather is pretty unpredictable here, which obviously adds to the challenge of going out with a primitive means of take.

[@45-70Guy]

@@scotteger6271we normally joke up here if you don’t like the weather just wait 10 minutes. It’s more fun the more heinous the weather is at least for myself.

[@matsgorner806]

Yes I love PA flintlock. Sadly I quit hunt in PA to favor MD as I live so close to the state line. And I can't see my iron sights any longer. The moisture is a tricky one to master, reliable ignition and on. But o so nice and quite it was.

[@charlesshapland1986]

I have been shooting a CVA Optima V2 for over ten years, but this episode has me rethinking my setup. I think the “so you bought a muzzleloader, now what?” episode, especially if it is focused on inline rifles, would be great. Discussions/comparisons of the types of charges, and the various types of projectiles, maybe even some gel testing, would be great as well.

[@mattp9574]

Always a great topic. Gotta love when you pull the trigger and your view is completely obscured by a giant puff of smoke. Followed by the immediate frantic reload while scouring the landscape for your quarry and inevitably dropping a percussion cap or two in the process. But at the end of it, we all wouldn’t change anything about it. It’s reminds us of a time where that weapon system was the pinnacle of technology. In short, for no good reason, we love our smoking poles

[@dimmymackster431]

That last part means two things.

[@benjaminsims9046]

Great topic and discussion! However I think for the majority of folks looking to enter the world of muzzleloading, a good discussion on the “entry level” firearms and their capabilities, weaknesses etc would be fun. The CVA Wolf series with incredible accuracy from a $200 gun, sometimes sub-optimal optics or attaching hardware, not comfortable with open sights. A discussion on the pros and cons of pelletized propellants etc. This would be appreciated and fascinating!

[@garrittkirchoff1672]

With utah changing to 1x or red dot will vortex be coming out with a etched reticle 1/2 moa dot sight with a dial exposed moa turret?

[@emr7831]

Did I miss the magic powder charge? I was out on a run listening and hoping to get some insight to help me with consistency out of my knight disc 45

[@russherbert839]

KZbin doesn’t allow for loading data to be share in the algorithm. Plus the liability issue rears it’s ugly head.

[@timfetters7471]

I figured they can’t say what it is for legality probably. I’d like to know also.

[@phillyflyguys9]

Same, I listened to it a few different times thinking I missed what it was but they don’t say it in the podcast. I have a cva Accura mrx, and it sounds like he has had a lot of success with this specific charge and gun combo. Would love to know what it is.

[@bisleykid]

"Don't put anything but blackhorn in any of your muzzleloaders." At $75 plus shipping and hazmat for 8 ozs, that is a whole sack full of nope for me. T7 is dirty and makes a crud ring and all that but at least I don't need to mortgage my house to shoot it.

[@Snailz5]

Yeah. Don’t support monopolistic price gouging! Hodgdon was allowed to buy a ML propellant monopoly in 2020 and have put the screws to all its customers ever since.

[@ThatGuy-kf7fo]

So what’s this magic load that works in all inline rifles?

[@Simon-talks]

Getchu some real black powder and ram a round lead ball in there, boi. Then get some venison

[@kevincolonel3070]

I live in the land of the straight wall cartridge, and even before that, we were the land of shotgun slugs and muzzleloaders. Once I came to realize the range and accuracy of a scoped inline muzzleloader, my shotgun was relegated to the specialized purpose of turkey hunting. I have wanted to use Blackhorn 209 powder since I first heard of it, but I would have better luck finding common sense in Kommiefornia. Until I do find a bottle of Blackhorn, I'll be content with my Pyrodex powder powder load mated with a sabot and a 240 grain Hornady FTX bullet shooting 1.25 moa.

[@henryofskalitz2228]

The only long range muzzleloader I use is the sharps and whitworth. The whitworths preformance is out standing even past 550 yards with a hexagonal 550g bullet and 85g of Swiss 3f blackpowder

[@NTHunt]

"Only get Blackhorn 209 and nothing else if you're getting into muzzleloading" 😢 Can't find it anywhere and when it is "available" it's not really available....

[@zackw9292]

And they’ll sell you less of it (8oz vs 10oz) and charge you a fortune for it!!!!

[@45-70Guy]

A local sports shop had a container of it..... $110. Needless to say it sat there for a while.

[@donniem6191]

My biggest gripe is how Hodgdon has handled blackhorn 209 since they bought it. Running limited runs and increasing the price of it so high that it’s not really worth the shooting. I understand them pushing them out of the market and I would be fine with it so long as they put out another comparable product. The triple 8 is supposed to be cleaner but the only way to get it is the firestick.

[@VortexNation]

We feel your pain with this one!

[@20020x]

Very Fun Subject I had my "Super" Inline experience this year, with a rifle I put together, Mack Evo II action, 50 Cal K&P 28" 1-15 Modified Sendero bbl with UML breech plug system, Hornady 340 Bore Driver @ 1825 fps with 777, Magpul Hunter stock and a 1X Crossfire II ML scope FTW. Though we are restricted to 1X scopes here in SD, it made 100yds no question on a nice big doe. I have also hunted in SD with my 54 Cal TC Hawkins #11, made by my father from a kit 40 years ago. I really would like to put together a traditional long hunter outfit to wear for ML season and I would go back to my "traditional" ML. The year I did use the Hawkins, I wore my orange hat with my ghilles suit and snuck to 60yds on a big doe. Thanks Again Guys

[@jasonwebb4871]

Being the weirdos hunting in the snow in December mostly by ourselves in Iowa in the 90’s was me too. That comment resonates. Opening day regular season scared the crap out of a few times with all those people shooting at anything that moves. Had an early 80’s TC .50 cal side hammer with a cap. No scope. I remember when scopes became allowed, and when the sabot’s first were too. Good times.

[@carterthiessen2664]

Blackhorn 209 is *THE* stuff. However I'm down to my last bottle and havent seen any in stock in canada in over 3 years.

[@Snailz5]

I’m moving to triple seven. I can’t support such flagrant price gouging by a company with a monopoly. It’s $164 per pound, which is basically any other common propellant! Triple the price of Alliant Steel, Varget, RL26.

[@birdinwithblue]

Scheels in kansas city , nearly 10 bucks an ounce . i like it but you have to draw the line somewhere .

[@RumblestripDotNet]

I blame Justin

[@genericyoutubeuser1700]

This is a great video. Thank you for convincing me I don’t need the top end option!

[@Eggomania86]

Didn't CVA discontinue temporarily the Paramount due to the lack of availability of black horn 209 and large rifle primers. Thoughts on Knight Pregrine?

[@mccann8806]

I bought an old CVA Woodsman 50 cal percussion used for $100 a few years ago, and it's been a great learning platform. I just found a peep sight that fits in the scope mount hole pattern. Once I get this maxed out on effective hunting range, I want to add a 45 cal inline or bolt action with a magnified optic to try to stretch out to 300 yards comfortably.

[@45-70Guy]

Mel Gibson style on a whitetail is a very rewarding experience. Even if it’s only once in your life. Great video guys

[@bluemonday09]

Someone should come up with an idea to take those brass modules and have them also contain the powder and projectile all in one. You could probably even load them in the breach. On second thought no, that would never take off

[@danhanus2294]

I had a first round hit at 800 yards a couple weeks ago with my custom smokeless. It is hard to find deer outside of the range of an in-line blackpowder muzzleloader though.

[@drocfox9771]

What Vortex scope would you use on a CVA Mr

[@brinkee7674]

About 8 or 10 years ago I went on a hunt and used a Ultimate Firearms muzzleloader or Johnston Muzzleloader(same thing). For ignition it used a 45 win mage case with magnum rifle primer and used 3 777 magnum pellets and a 275 grn Fury sabot bullet @ 2400fps(about). A 250 yard mule deer was a chip shot with that rifle. Remington bought/stole(not sure) the design from the maker Randy Johnston They guaranteed MOA performance out to 500 yards Remington's UML the UML stood for Ultimate Muzzle Loader which came from Ultimate Firearms system. Ultimate still sells guns also under Johnston Muzzleloaders name-Black Widow, BP Xpress and they always used a Rem 700 action

[@CrimeVid]

If it were me, I would only have a muzzleloader to extend the hunting season. I’m sure that a lot of people use bows of one kind or another for the same reason.

[@rickgoing7027]

At 1:03 you are talking about a bullet getting stuck and the forgiveness of a sabot due to the softness of the plastic. I won an Optima V2 in October and on Monday this week I hunted with it for the first time.. My gun was sighted in at 50 yards with Hornady Xtp's with the 44 cal bullet and they were touching in the bull. I found at the range that no matter how hard I tried I couldn't get a third bullet seated on the powder. It would come up between 1/8 and 1/4" above the powder based upon my mark on my range rod. I underestimated the distance to a deer and shot low on it twice. Not proud of it but my 1 month old range finder wouldn't range past 35 yards for some reason. So i knew after two shots I knew from practice that I had to swab the barrel. I went to do this and the jag got stuck and I couldn't pull it back up. This whole time the deer is now closer and standing broadside and I am having a mini meltdown because I had the time to load a 3rd bullet but couldn't. Fortunately it made it about 60 yards down the field edge an another hunter was able to put it down. After that I was able to think clearly and realized I could unscrew the ram rod, take the breech plug out and push the jag back up the barrel and pull it out. I was using 777 pellets because the store was out of BH 209 and said they didn't expect to get anymore this year. How do I avoid this going forward? Is it as simple as using BH 209 as many have said or is there something more? I would never have expected being able to get two let alone 3 possible shots but that was my first experience. The next day I went out and had no drama with the same combo I shot my best public land buck at 50 yards off hand. It ran 20 or so tards and dropped. It was awesome. I have exclusively bowhunted until this week since 1991. Looking forward to what you would suggest trying to avoid this possibility again. Thanks in advance!

[@Chasintail11]

Check out Thor bullets. Get a test pack and see which size fits your barrel. I found them easier to load. Power belts load awesome too but I’ve seen them explode on hard bone.

[@davidsettle8456]

Could be the thickness of the the sabots , MAYBE go to another color sabot to see if the thickness diameter changes things

[@rickgoing7027]

@@davidsettle8456 Yea I plan on trying the black crushed ribs with the .452 250 grain xtp

[@mattthies934]

What brand is that hard side charge tube case and where can one find them, or is it homemade with custom cut foam? I have the soft side case and tube kit blackhorn 209 offers but its limited to 20 tubes and now im feeling inadequate compared to Ryan's setup haha Thanks for the great content fellas

[@normankaster917]

Man I've done the same thing talk about pulling your hair out chasing constant shots with pellets..... Finding out about primer push, and the biggest thing I found was with weight inconsistency with pellets +/- 1-2 grains is a big deal when I'm trying to set up a bean field muzzle loader that will constantly hit at 250-300 yards with max loads of 150gr... Blackhorn 209 84gr by weight is my go too set up and federal bore loc premium copper 50. cal is sub moa at 300 with my older traditions vortek pursuit ultralight muzzleloader.

[@mikekempin7917]

Great podcast! Does vortex have any plans to offer a true 1X scope again? South Dakota specifies no magnification

[@The_Bushman]

Hey lads, Can you guys do a cartridge talk on the 9.3x62 ? Cheers lads

[@swamprat9018]

I've build a couple side locks but my eye have gotten so bad that I can't see the sights even with a peep.. so I need to build me one more and put a red got or scope on it.

[@joshkrebs1999]

I started with a CVA optima v2 and moved to the Accura lr a few years later. I use 80 grains of bh 209 and a 300-grain PR bullet. I'd say both are equally accurate. While I love my Accura LR, I do miss the handiness and light weight of my old optima. With a proven bdc scope, both are easily capable of taking game up to 300 yards.

[@VortexNation]

🙌🙌🙌

[@matsgorner806]

I really enjoyed this podcast! Informative and brought up so many aspects. I personally love my flintlock. A couple of years back, age/eyesight ruined that for me. So I had to find a scoped option. The shase of accuracy began. As a optics sight company, is there a better ironsight that could help me see my sight? Or what options do you know of? I have the Lyman Traderifle. My scoped gun is a TC Pro. That's finally shoots acceptable for my ethics. Thanks for a well balanced pod!

[@nateeller2683]

A tang mounted peep sight might be a good option for you. Pair that with a fiber optic or dot front sight and you'd be in business

[@jonathonanderson8004]

Unrelated suggestion for next short video: I added a .75 extension to 1/2-36 threads on AR9 to add spacing between handguard and new suppressor. Now I'm looking to add a conversion threading on AR15 from 1/2-28 to 1/2-36. Using rocksett on the adapters. See any issue with either scenario on the bullet exiting the suppressor?

[@Adamhawk1994]

Just got done hunting with my flintlock on PA

[@garystiek2561]

I have been shooting my Knight Master Hunter and my Knight regular disc rifle for many years. I see no reason for me to change my system just because someone has invented another system. I absolutely love the disc. I have never had a problem with the system. My Master Hunter came with the extreme bolt/disc. I converted my older Knight to the extreme system.

[@huntingnomad]

How does the newer optima V2/Accura differ from the older incline's like the CVA Kodiak Pro? Is the accuracy really that much more?

[@joshszydel8202]

My accura is a single hole puncher with. 45 powerbelts and 150 grains of loose pyrodex

[@jeffzanow3499]

I think Ryan should lend one of his 8 mid price point inlines to Jim and have him go shoot a deer. Nuthin fancy needed for front stuffin! Still shooting my Omega and Encore and they work just fine. The fun is in how close you can get to the game!

[@45-70Guy]

As much as I love even low powered optics, the exact reason I love peep sights on my timber rifles. You are so close! My closest shot on an animal was this past season at 10 yards stalking. Was a great experience to be that close and to be able to stay calm to make a smooth shot.

[@scotteger6271]

To Jim’s point, going out more basic can be enjoyable. Even if you’re not into the patch and round ball flintlock route, you can buy a decent but very affordable CVA Wolf with no scope and sights, fiber optic I believe, and spend something like $250. Get some powder, primers and projectiles and go take a deer.

[@VortexNation]

Sometimes less is more. Thanks for tuning in!

[@murdered1415]

Still love my knight disc elite, absolute tack driver!

[@martyrenn9888]

I just ai just applied for permission in Colorado to use a scope for muzzle hunting and received permission. I’m 66 years old and can no longer shoot with open sights. So some states will work with you if you are visually impaired.

[@Jak1481]

How come, you guys are not doing your cartridge talks for the holidays loved hearing about them

[@mdp4656]

Great topic and I like the discussion with traditional, modern vs ultra modern muzzleloaders as the inline style muzzleloaders have come a long way even since I started in the early 2000s. I will disagree with Ryan M on his stance on Blackhorn 209 being magic; I've experienced poor ignition out of that power at temps below 20 degrees even with the hottest primers I could use. I refuse to use that stuff for hunting during Minnesota and Iowa seasons. Enjoyed the discussion, keep up the good content!

[@Alex-uz7wd]

Wish the CVA paramounts were available can’t find one anywhere.

[@christopherquinn7858]

Admittedly new to muzzleloaders. I have a CVA optima with the standard breech plug. I have been shooting blackhorn with a federal 209 muzzleloader primer with zero issues. After hearing that they make a blackhorn breech plug, I’ve been thinking about getting one. I’m sure the results will be more consistent and lead to better accuracy, but it doesn’t seem to prevent the function like many are saying.

[@joshkrebs1999]

It won't always happen, but eventually, it WILL HAPPEN. The question is, will it happen at the range or when you are trying to take a shot on the animal of a lifetime. I can tell you which scenario happened to me and why I promptly ordered the blackhorn plug after it did. Don't make my mistake. That hunt still haunts me.

[@VortexNation]

You are correct, the 209-specific breech plug will help with accuracy as the powder can burn more thoroughly and consistently. Another tip to increase accuracy is to use an electronic dropper for measured powder and try 67.8gr. We have found great success with this grain weight, mainly due to extensive testing by Ryan over the years.

[@VortexNation]

@joshkrebs1999 hate to hear that, but at least you resolved that issue.

[@joshkrebs1999]

@VortexNation I should clarify, I experienced a hang fire on that specific hunt. Can I say with certainty that it was the breech plug? Absolutely not. Other factors like moisture probably played a larger role, but why leave that moment up to chance?

[@Darthdoodoo]

You can get a muzzle loader adapter for a break action shotgun. Its like a solid steel shotgun shell and you just replace the primer and then load from the muzzle as usual. Good for end times when u need to make your own black powder and only have nuts and bolts as shot😂😂

[@danp4203]

What about the CVA Electra? They aren’t illegal in my state. I’ve had it since it came out. I use a 9 volt lithium and have never had a misfire. Even in single digit temps and rain. Too bad some states made it illegal to hunt with. I’ll never get rid of it.

[@nickpond]

Woodsman is the master race

[@jmythngdmb]

Wait, are we doing holiday cartridge talks this year? I just realized it’s that time again.

[@mine12389]

theres a Whitworth percussion muzzleloader from the civil war with a confirmed kill at 1270 meters, so why do modern muzleloaders fall off at 250 yards

[@Eggomania86]

The key to Whitworth is its rifling and bore. It utilities a hexagonal bore with rifling. Its bullet is basically a lead heavier bolt that weighs in excess of 500gr. The heavier the bullet, the longer said projectile remains in flight. The problem is that the heavier bullet has a rainbow like trajectory. The drawback to Whitworth rifling is that it has the tendency to foul. You definitely got me thinking, a modern inline with the Whitworth rifling propelled by Black Horn 209. 😅 also consider that modern in lines typically use bullets that are designed for hunting and run sabots . They shoot really flat initially, but after 200 to 300 yards, they lose velocity and energy. Also, new technology such as the power belt works on the same principle as a minie and Pritchett ball, but modern materials are used as opposed to an all lead projectile. The powebelt, Pritchett and minie ball both use a hollow skirt the projectile diameter is slightly less than the bore. When you fire said projectiles, the skirt expands and engages the rifling. If you think about it, muzzeloader technology hasn't changed too much. Old concepts are becoming new again.

[@brinkee7674]

How does it take you a minute to reload unless you are swabbing between shots? I could easily get another shot off in 20 seconds with an Ultimate Firearms muzzle loader and a bit longer for a LONG shot due to aiming

[@kurtislemaire4397]

The Remington 700 UML is available so when it’s sportsman’s two weeks ago brand new

[@dansalopek7104]

Can Black Horn be used in a side lock?

[@mattcomchoc2957]

regulations vary so wildly by state, make sure you thoroughly research before purchasing the gun, any scope, the ammo, heck even the propellant you will be using. i'm a guy who buys all of his guns online. if i were to get back into muzzleloading again in the new state i live in, i'd find a gun shop with a knowledgeable "muzzleloading guy" and start my quest there.

[@Darthdoodoo]

I just looked it up and they make ar15 muzzle loader uppers😂😂 sweet😂😂😂

[@donaldmorgan5265]

Very fun. 😂

[@FMDad-dm5qo]

This video reminds me of the scene in the Matrix where Neo is plugged in and his eyes flicker rapidly during the torrential info dump, and he looks up and announces: “I know kung fu” Except it’s muzzleloading

[@kylebarricklow2196]

What is the Magic charge, please?

[@mikekropidlowski1237]

X2 please

[@markmiller9894]

Listen to what he says at 1 hour 10 minutes 😮😅😅

[@callmecamo2]

Sooo what is this magical load?!?! C'mon!!!!

[@markmiller9894]

Listen at 1 hour 10 min 😮😅😅

[@haydenhodge2399]

Jesus gentlemen(mark) let Ryan talk😂 lol

[@blue_water_jim]

I really feel like you guys missed a big part of muzzloading here. I would call it the "fun tier." That is all of the traditional style black powder revolvers. I shoot my 1851 Navy's, 1848 Dragoons, and 1847 Walkers more than I shoot anything else, just because I get the most enjoyment out of them.

[@RumblestripDotNet]

Nothing about FireStick?

[@jeffreywilson690]

Iooks like Ryan has spent his money on guns and hunting trips.

[@joshtrauger3088]

What's this magic charge?😂

[@markmiller9894]

He tells you at 1 hour 10 minutes 😮😅😅

[@joshtrauger3088]

​@markmiller9894 I missed that but I found it. Thanks bud

[@davidsettle8456]

Whats the best muzzleloader best value best reviews for 2023. Best .muzzleloader under $500.00. ??

[@galenhisler396]

I really think this video should have a different title like the modern muzzleloader up grades. You barley mention traditional muzzleloaders .

[@VortexNation]

Thanks for the feedback and thanks for tuning in.

[@geoffreygrant6833]

I feel bad for your mate. As an American I have weapon systems that would work so much better than what your using and for you fighting the good fight against a an animal that dies not belong in your region I can only image your frustration

[@lugerstonecock]

Respect you guys but couldn't disagree more. I am in Washington and I yearn for the 80's and 90's when sidelocks and exposed nipples were the only thing allowed. Iron sights only, it was truly a primitive hunt. Inlines have ruined the entire muzzleloader season.

[@genericyoutubeuser1700]

Ruined it because too many deer are taken, or because it just doesn’t feel right?

[@lugerstonecock]

Ruined it because it's no longer primitive. It was started as a hunt like archery. The traditional equipment originally mandated made it so you had to actually hunt and get close to be successful. Now it's so easy with modern equipment extending ranges that the primitive intent is completely lost. Now it's just a single shot rifle season. As far as deer taken I don't believe it has risen much and now that the challenge is gone it has just become another crowded season.

[@benjaminbagley4168]

You can still hunt like that. Nobody is stopping you. And most western states have gone to no magnification anymore. Utah just doing that this year.

[@lugerstonecock]

@@benjaminbagley4168 Your response and points you made have nothing to do with what I wrote. Did you not comprehend my position?

[@scotteger6271]

@@lugerstonecockI think a lot of these states offer opportunities for these more modern things (inlines, compound bows, crossbows) and magnification, as an entry for more hunters. The states make money off of tag sales. It’s not that I agree with it, but it’s just the reality of the situation. I’m in Pennsylvania and we still have a late season flintlock only hunt…don’t see too many people out at that time. But I could never see PA doing that for the early season because they wouldn’t get as many people interested. The regulations for our early season also state that only an antlerless deer can be taken. You have to wait until rifle season to take an antlered deer. Can use a muzzleloader if you desire, but if it’s rifle season why not just use a rifle. So again, it eliminates a lot of people from wanting to go out in early muzzleloader because they want a buck, not a doe.

[@carney12285]

q 2😮5d o

[@TheClampetts]

The amount of time wasted saying really nothing in the first couple minutes made it clear I didn't want to waste nearly 2 hours getting maybe 10-15 minutes of information by watching the rest of the video. But it looks like you left out a 4th quite distinct tier of muzzle loaders, and that is smokeless MLs. They are a whole 'nother level of power, accuracy, and performance above so-called Extreme Performance, like on the order of a 300 grain bullet going 3000 fps with

[@3DVIDEOSMurray]

The 3 Tiers of muzzleloading: Legit, Inline FAKE, Extreme FAKE. These modern fake muzzleloaders were made for one purpose and that is to CHEAT the philosophy behind primitive weapon seasons. These seasons would likely be more prevalent to this day where i live if it wasnt for all the modern inlines gaming the system. INSTEAD all we get now is archery and rifle.