Root (and the Riverfolk Expansion) - Shut Up & Sit Down Review

[@evilbarrels2506]

"Lizards are my favorite mammal" might be my favorite quote from your channel.

[@jasonnewell7036]

Four words. "One man Womble warlord"

[@Notorietypulp]

"Ideas... are... sometimes bad."

[@ebbiilizard8954]

This is my favorite SU&SD KZbin comments section comment.

[@andrewp3043]

Oddly enough, Beavers are my favorite mercantile reptile.

[@Killercrab_2]

Beaver arms dealers though

[@Lavoye]

I'm watching this review years later. I once watched it and it made me believe that this game was not for me. Then someone brought this game to my table and I discovered one of the best game i've ever played. Been playing it ever since.

[@user572d]

I have lived a very similar experience. 18 months and so many games later, this game has become my whole hobby, hosting it every 2 weeks with a waiting list of players.

[@danielroy8232]

I'm curious, what do you think of the reviewer's criticisms?

[@Sgnolbo]

Crazy thing about those granola bars as well is that there's two in each packet, not one. So really, I actually ate four!

[@SinOfAugust]

Username checks out.

[@SinOfAugust]

B T - He may very well be one of the people who invented the damn thing!

[@cicobalico]

Almost “SSIX!”

[@EvangelionPower]

Let's have one minute of silence to commemorate those unlucky parents who didn't pay attention to the age restriction and purchased Root thinking "what an adorable game with cartoony cute animals in a forest! That will be delightful for the whole family!" Then they took the game home, opened the rulebook and the whole family ended up lobotomized.

[@deadinsidegaming4764]

Kk

[@andresgarciacastro1783]

I've been able to bring it to the table twice HAHA.

[@AnOddRadish]

Really appreciate the honesty with your reviews, and I really love how you guys explain your reasoning for liking and disliking games. It makes purchasing much easier: if I generally like the things you mention as pros and don't much care about the things you mention as cons, I can buy (or especially borrow) in good wallet conscience. Thanks for another great review!

[@lamplighter39]

I seriously agree. This is the first review I have watched from you guys and found this review to be honest and so well done. This was incredibly informative and entertaining; I am very excited to explore the channel and believe I may have just found my go-to board game reviewer. Thank you, guys!

[@lilybeejones]

Super late to reply but I agree. It's so nice to hear pros and cons in a way that doesn't make you feel dumb for liking or disliking what they are talking about.

[@joyKafka]

Yet

[@neemarafi]

"Are the birds going around and killing everything like in the Alfred Hitchcock movie.... Psycho?" best line from this video by far

[@ihatethatyoutubedisplaysyo8106]

Uhh... uhh... Rear Window?

[@Heimal]

I dunno man. "Lizards are my favourite mammal." is hard to beat.

[@SilentBeutlin]

This review made me buy the game, and after 30+ plays we’re still not nearly done with it. It is such an intruiging, cutthroat puzzle. I love it. Almost all of Quinns criticisms are totally valid. But at the end of the day, Root is STILL the most engaging boardgame I’ve played in a long, long time.

[@bird9230]

Still playing it?

[@coolishtiger8831]

@@bird9230 I am

[@bird9230]

@@coolishtiger8831 :)

[@lutethearrow6605]

Still playing it and I've ordered the next expansion

[@SinNomin]

Dune exists

[@DriveThruReview]

Ya. Man, this is one of the best reviews I've ever seen for any game. Going to need to track down that expansion.

[@AnonymousOtters]

Better do it fast. 2nd printings is on pre-order now and likely to sell out.

[@icarusmustburn]

Also grabbed the expansion here, but did I miss any mention of the dominance cards? Those seem to address the key criticism of a runaway leader; secretly holding onto a dominance card and positioning yourself for a win while others watch for that happening is a key 🔑 strategic element in the game - if there are any fixes needed, then I believe it will involve improving upon the role of the dominance cards in the game. 😃

[@DriveThruReview]

I don't think they mentioned it. However, I have a friend (totally in love with the game) who's played at least a dozen times and says he's never seen anyone win with one of those (for what that's worth).

[@jonknight4616]

I have played once so far and I won with the dominance card as the cats. I had to fight off the alliance player for the last location I needed, and then survive an attack by the vagabond, and pulled if off. The problem is not every player will be able to take advantage of such a card, depending on when it comes up and where they are positioned.

[@jonknight4616]

And look at the kinds of games they seem to love. Either super simple games or super overly complex games. Root is more in the middle ground, only made more complex because each side is asymmetric and plays differently. It is the illusion of heaviness and the process of discovery they liked at first, and when those were no longer factors, they grew bored with it.

[@icewatever]

Every god damn review, I'm searching how to buy the game, and I hear the turn in the review and get cold feet. EVERY TIME.

[@BrianGuilfoos]

Mood. I was literally opening up a tab to start looking for the game, and Quinns goes "BUT..."

[@246trinitrotoluene]

I would just get it then. Some of his comments were he felt like he needed to alpha-gamer his friends... you really don't. Moreover, a lot of games change after you've moved past the "get drunk and do random things" phase. This often opens the door for a lot of reverse-psychology. Root is not such a simple game that it becomes reduced to a series of "you must do this". I do agree you need to pay attention to players who get in the lead, but there are few multi-player games in this vein where you don't need to pay attention to opponents. Take a game like Smallworld, Neuroshima Hex (3+ players), Game of Thrones (probably most similar to Root out of these examples)... you can't let one person go unchecked. If you want a game where you win or lose mostly independently of your opponents, you want to look at some sort of engine-builder where you can avoid interaction with your opponents. One review that comes to mind from SUSD to me is Star Wars Rebellion where they didn't give it a recommendation, but I've played both factions of it and had a great time both games.

[@chadiushobby]

Its good, just buy it. Its not expensive and its worth every penny

[@JanFrensin]

@@BrianGuilfoos haha me too :) i have reached the amazon already when the "but" came... I know right there and then that i should probably just close the Amazon tab haha.. game look amazing , but some of Quins points are just too much to look past .. that being said , if i ever stumble on it in some sale I'll buy it definitely :) just for the great and diversed learning experience

[@MrRadialdrift]

It's a good game, I have played it 5 times. I can see why he felt the way he did playing root, but it is still a great designed game and sometimes, its just fun to play games and not cry about who won or lost.

[@rainingsunny]

Great review guys! I love the cut-aways to the camera setups as it gives us all some idea of how much hard work it is to actually film these things well.

[@Lagzlot]

The orange cats are a war game, out for blood. The mystical blue birds bide their time until the cards align. The green diseased ones spread beneath, unnoticed, planting their roots surging from below, going from something to be laughed at to something feared. The 4th player hides in the shadows, steering other players against each other, feeding off the remains, having the most fun in making a mess of other people's battles. Are you sure this isn't a rebranding of Chaos In The Old World?

[@gorantharon]

Why did you have to make this analogy? Now I got to play this, which means I have to buy it, because no one here has it.

[@AllTheRooks]

Hell, newest expansion has an underground race of rodents that burrow in massive networks underground only to flood the overworlders with overwhelming numbers

[@ksaweryglab]

I've played Chaos in the Old World and Root and the only similarities are the asymmetry. Actually in Root the asymmetry goes deeper.

[@edrichburnop991]

In the grim darkness of Root's forest there is only War! Not only is this a clever comparison, I think it actually hints at a thematic link much deeper than the superficial surface details. Games Workshop designed the forces of Chaos based on the 7 deadly sins and human religious iconography while Cole Wehrle designed Root to explore different forms of government structure through analogous animal counterparts (as in the memorable sequence from The Once and Future King). Both are distilling a range of historical and cultural references down to their fundamental elements and arriving at a similar point from different directions: If human history is ultimately one long tragic tale about the unwinnable war against our darker impulses than it's really no surprise that the ruthless "might makes right" of the animal kingdom we claim to have raised ourselves above would be neatly shadowed in the cyclical patterns of our flawed and often tenuous social structures.

[@mattvoll9094]

@@gorantharon well good luck it's super expensive

[@theKovenant1]

I just wanted to chime in praising the framing and camera work that your reviews always subtly excel at. It's clear you take pleasure in the craft and it's one reason why I enjoy watching your reviews over so many others that are available.

[@TheIronArmenianakaGIHaigs]

The Eriri are my favourite faction. Playing them feels like shovelling coal into a steam trains boiler. Slow to start, but builds up speed over time. After some time you find your going a bit to fast and are worrierd that the train is going to fly of the tracks like a Nascar out off control.

[@lkjkhfggd]

The Iron Armenian aka G.I. Haigs Yup, eyrie are very fun, but in later games you'll really discover how you are at the mercy of your opponents and basically anyone can force you into turmoil if they see you as a threat. Eyrie is probably the weakest faction besides the lizards.

[@335637880]

I just played recently and my brother was dominating then he started falling into turmoil 4 turns in a row. It was hilarious

[@mienzillaz]

@@335637880 because you have to plan for that as well. Use less bird cards and you're fine.

[@ianbehrstock]

Love the analogy

[@moltenbullet]

@@mienzillaz Eyrie is extremely hard to plan for in any session with more than 3 players. Add in expansions and crazier stuff like the "scorched earth" vagabond, and the sheer amount of chaos on the map makes all kinds of planning redundant. You can't think enough moves ahead, and by the time its your turn again, it doesn't matter how many moves ahead you've thought because the map has changed. And then you're the one slowing the party down because you have to think through so many options. Add to that the swingy-ness of dice rolls and card draws, and its so tiring to play. I've come so close to winning so many times with the eyrie, but was frustratingly denied by its own punishing mechanics of needing to meet EVERY single decree and suit. In my 6 player party, the odds improved by throwing in the otters, because at least I could quickly build the decrees i needed and recover from turmoil fast.

[@Thundercatsxho]

I’ve played maybe a single board game in my life but I love this channel for some reason

[@Hennu_TRM]

Maybe you should try some board games? But fr the reviews are entertaining on their own...

[@Friariello91]

Because this guy is funny

[@towerguardgames]

SUSD are the play testers every designer wishes they had. They're able to both politely but unapologetically convey how they feel, while not denying the charm and appeal a game may have. I hope they like my next design. My first was an attempt to design a game for what I thought the masses wanted in a board game, and my second game I designed for what I want in a game. I'm curious to see how they compare.

[@welshdan1987]

I feel the domination cards helped with the understandable victory points issue. By having area control victory conditions tucked away in secret you can never rely on being ahead on the victory point meter and still have to play for area.

[@matiswagner]

the lighting and framing in this video is spot on, great job guys. Really enjoyed it

[@ryanb6074]

Love your reviews mainly for two things: 1) It's not just you guys being stationary in front of a games wall listing your opinions off in a list. You actually have different angles, cut scenes, and overall great production. Can't really enjoy watching any other reviews because you set the bar so high. And 2) This review was about 2 months late to the party, but only because you took the time to play through quite a few games before offering up an opinion. To many reviewers offer up their opinion after playing the game once or twice. Love that you took the time to do that. And the result was that you buy it for the novelty, not the game. Which I think will help a lot of people make a decision. Thanks for your great videos!

[@DHaeusler]

Usually I find Quinns' reviews spot-on all the way through but with this one, I feel like the criticisms sound more like criticism of board games in general. I've only played 4 games of this so far but my group has had last-minute from-behind wins, epic stalemates which caused the two leaders to come last, beginner players beating the more experienced ones; we've had a cracking time so far and I'm psyched to get the Riverfolk asap!

[@Friariello91]

Your impressions about the game haven't changed 'till today?

[@DHaeusler]

@@Friariello91it's still on high rotation with my game group (which means about 2 games a year given all the games we like) and I would love to play it more if I could

[@Schrogs]

My family played it about 5 times and never again

[@joku90]

Agreed. I feel many people play Root thinking it's much more complicated game than it actually is and that by itself is turning the whole experience sour. Couple of my best advice for beginners to enjoy Root: 1. When in doubt, focus on your own scoring. In Root it's easy to lose focus on what you are doing, so when the game starts to feel frustrating, just remind yourself how your faction *actually* scores points. Usually it's easier than you remembered. 2. Never listen to other players' advice or requests during the game. This should go without saying in asymmetric game: What's beneficial for other players' factions probably isn't beneficial for your faction. For me diplomacy has no place in this game. It's still relatively short game so your main focus should be your own scoring. 3. Knocking back other players is really costly. Scoring points is cheap. In trying to hinder other players advance, you might miss your chance to pass them in one huge leap of VP.

[@LeanForLife989]

​@@Schrogs why?

[@jalbor]

I love the idea of Root and I'm so happy I have it on my shelf. Assymetric games are very much my JAM. But the worst thing about Root I've found so far? The daunting challenge of teaching it to other players when I don't even have a firm grasp over all the characters.

[@bird9230]

Yeah teaching root is a bitch. I'd rather teach twilight imperium. Because at least in twilight, when I explain how to research tech it is bloody universal😂

[@windup13ird60]

This is probably the best review I've seen for a game. So much time and effort has gone into the presentation, discussion, and humor. The one thing I have trouble with is the whole nature of "frustrating when someone is way behind, frustrating when someone is way ahead, and a dice roll when everyone is clumped." My experiences with multiplayer board games all have this to a degree, no matter how highly rated or how much fun it ended up being anyway. It is one of the reasons I tend to prefer 2 player games or Co-Op. Is the idea that this game has even MORE king making and fun ruining than your average game? Because that same description holds true for me in Catan, Rising Sun, Imperial Settlers, basically anything.

[@cole1719]

Super late to reply to this but yes, the designer has confirmed that king-making is intentionally a part of the design of the game

[@DudeWatIsThis]

There is some rubberbanding through the Vagabond being able to ally to the player with the least points. Root is fairly short for a wargame, so by the time the game has become a competition between the top 2 players, you're like 30 minutes (not 4 hours) away from the end.

[@CalaTec]

I agree with you. Also, I rather have someone super ahead because they did great and I made mistakes as it happens in Root quite often to me than someone high on the lead because I didn't have any good number/resource to choose on Catan and my friends blocked me despite being behind instead of blocking the guy on the lead.

[@el_dani]

you play the wrong games then..

[@warlorddk2070]

I have played so many games that has amazing catch up mechanics or where luck turned so that players way behind ended up winning. Latest experience like this was Cubitos :D where was way behind by 4 zones bought some good dice and BAM I won by 1 space :P

[@rile688]

It started positive, and then the classic "just kidding, here are the problems with this game" section arrived right on time.

[@TravDadGamer]

Darn. I had stayed away from their reviews for a while, as their formula started to grate. I wouldn't want to hang out with folks who routinely create a falsely positive set up then delightfully spike it into the dirt. It's kind of mean-spirited at its core. Any game can and does have flaws. I feel like the recent SUSD reviews savor the flaws over the merits.

[@hexproneplayspoorly1580]

I dunno, they spend a lot of time on the merits here -- and the impression I took away is of a game they can't help loving despite the flaws. I hadn't heard of Root before this, and on the basis of the video I'd be super into it (if I weren't already neglecting a Gloomhaven campaign).

[@tams805]

It's not for you then. Their British though and British humour has a lot of mockery of failure (or in this case weakness), focus on the negative (and then mock it) and irony. You have to understand that often what many see as criticism from a British person is while still criticism, also sometimes a form of praise (if slight). Flaws are seen as something to savour, while not overstating merits (and if merits are overstated, then they need knocking down a bit). I find such an approach more honest, refreshing and useful. Just going "oh isn't this great!" is a disservice, if it isn't perfect.

[@rile688]

@@tams805 I never said I didn't like it. Calm down.

[@darkwing_don2391]

"Flaws are seen as something to savour, while not overstating merits... I find such an approach more honest, refreshing and useful. Just going "oh isn't this great!" is a disservice, if it isn't perfect." Idt that's the issue. It often feels like a clunky shift in tone, and that can make their reviews a bit confusing. Sometimes it's hard to tell if they recommend buying, just playing, or skipping a game entirely, and that's inherently not very useful in a review.

[@pmolloy01]

They're not beavers, they're otters! Clearly your entire opinion must be flawed

[@davidspam8607]

Yep, you can tell by their tails. The only beaver is the tinker vagabond. Silly Quins.

[@Anergyne]

I mean, I see your point. But on the otter hand...

[@davidgoldan2552]

I see what you did there.

[@mrshikad]

OH MY GOD THEY'RE OTTERS? THAT'S EVEN BETTER

[@furretthefuzzynoodle3896]

Shikad OTARS R DA BEST!

[@daviddigby6978]

An interesting review but no mention of the domination card mechanic which balances that runaway leader problem and has lead to really tense finishes between players racing for points to prevent the inevitable area control domination victory.

[@markhorsburgh76]

Coming to this review again, having now played Root.... Yeah, this. Weirdly not mentioned.

[@Pandaman64]

I can't help but notice that cards with variable powers seem to be a consistent issue with quinns. Not saying he's wrong, but he disliked blood rage, cry havoc, and black fleet for similar reasons iirc. Something to keep in mind. Still love the review, though. You guys are a treasure.

[@jeremyjudd8654]

I watched this review, and just had to have the game. I've played it 3 times now, and I don't care if it is slightly arbitrary, or quickly can turn into a one man race to the end. I love it. Thanks Shut up and Sit down. You earned a subscription.

[@hellboy7424]

You should make a list of those games: "when my friends leave home they go saying: omg, THIS game is incredible!"

[@ManJackThe]

Maybe even make a whole site about it!

[@hellboy7424]

@@ManJackThe that's a good idea too !!

[@peterraber5198]

the cosmic owl speaks

[@Zerot2009]

Exactly

[@lokihve6591]

I second this!

[@jogiff]

Ive got to disagree with your mid-review turnaround. After seeing your review I was hesitant to buy this game, but I tried it at a convention last weekend. And then I tried it again and again and it has become one of my favorite games of all time. And I usually enjoy Ameritrash games, but they’re usually not my favorite (that’s abstracts). But this one plays to the strengths of the genre *so well*. It’s not just a game, it’s a story. Each factions mechanics aren’t just balanced, they’re evocative. My first game as an experienced player I was playing the Eyrie against the Cat in a 2p game. And I was building up insane momentum. I had taken half the board and my army was growing at a steady clip thanks to my charismatic leader who doubled recruitment. The other player was realizing just how screwed he was and had exhausted all his actions trying to check me and his hand was looking empty. I asked him if he was sure he didn’t want to attack my large army moving towards his stronghold, but he just *couldnt*. So my turn comes up and I immediately tell him that my government collapses. He hadn’t killed enough of my birds for me to carry out the recruit action because I only had 3 minis left. And we could both imagine the lords of the birds chafing at this Young Turk leader who had brought the Eyrie back from the brink, but kept demanding more and more soldiers that he didn’t need and overthrowing him. And then we could see that cats taking advantage of the reprieve to muster forces and begin taking back the forest. That collapse had burst me so badly, but I was so excited for it because it was exciting. That little 5 second turn had more tension and depth than all of season 7 of GoT.

[@choanlpoto]

And then you know about this situation and that never happens in any other game. Like he says you find out about the rowing machine and the game turn into a grind.

[@danielhowsley6561]

So far, I've enjoyed the heck out of the game with my kids. My daughter( who I bought it for) just keeps beating me and we love it. It's not perfect and I think that's what makes it so interesting

[@vortexrace]

@@choanlpoto that can literally be almost any game if you think about it like that.

[@arthursimsa9005]

@@choanlpoto what? Turmoils happen in nearly every Root game.

[@jasonbrown1169]

You all are the most honest and thoughtful reviewers in the hobby, keep it up!

[@georgedaniels8198]

this channel really deserves more subscribers, really well made and produced reviews

[@Botanica_Gaming]

I come back to this review simply for nostalgia. This review was my first introduction to root. I absolutely love the game and all the content around it. I want another review when the mauraders come out.

[@mistertaktvoll]

I already loved your reviews for their intelligent and differentiated opinions. But this review is the best I have seen since I started watching boardgame reviews years back.

[@gelui13]

This is one of the best, most honest reviews I’ve ever watched. 10/10

[@vangelis.gavalakis]

Best board game review ever. Informative, funny (as always), displays pros and cons in as much as possible an unbiased way, as well as in a personal way. Kudos. Keep your reviews awesome!

[@elliottrinke6346]

We really need more on-location reviews like this; the fact that you did the whole video in a forest is really impressive to me. Bravo!

[@justincrooney]

I’m new to your channel and this video was recommended to me. I can’t believe the quality of this review and the love that went into making it. It’s comprehensive and entertaining and it gave me all the Information I need when considering to purchase or play it. Just wanted to say thank you and keep up the great work

[@pankpanthergaming5397]

Hey I loved this review and bought this game a couple years ago and really have enjoyed it and was wondering if you could do another review on this again including the new expansions. " The Underworld Expansion" and "The Clockwork Expansion"

[@dawafflesupreme]

I've never actually disagreed with a SU&SD vid before, but this is my first. This game is an incredible experience. It is basically the equivalent of mario kart and the legendary Dune board game. Despite said disagreement, however, this video was still incredibly put together.

[@sethbeebe5581]

Jacob Wathen Agree

[@arthursabian5057]

seven wonders duel as well

[@anonvideo738]

calling something mario kart is probably the biggest insult i can think off. Its basically saying "you can play perfectly but a random element (like a blue shell) can ruin you".

[@dawafflesupreme]

@@anonvideo738 Mario Kart is one of the most beloved games of all time. If you think that Mario Kart is a bad thing, you are so far gone with obsession over balance that you will never have fun with anything.

[@anonvideo738]

@@dawafflesupreme Just because a lot of people like it doesnt mean its good. With this kind of reasoning you should prefer summer blockbusters over thoughtful movies. Yet people use "michael bay movie" as an insult not as a compliment.

[@andrewhix9487]

I bought Root before watching this review (after listening to the podcast and deciding I couldn't wait), and I managed to stumble into every problem Quinns mentioned and more in just that first playthrough. Nevertheless, due to completely loving the art and being captivated by the forest ecosystem asymmetry, I am not regretting purchasing the game. In other words, this review completely nails it in my book. I am excited to play again and to try the otters one day. Otters are the best. Even if this game never gets really satisfyingly fun to me or my friends, I love it. At the least, next time I play Inis I will play with Eyrie meeples.

[@KyurekiHana]

Thanks for this review. I had played the core game a while back with three other players at a company game night. None of us knew how to play, it took a while to get the grips of it, and everyone recognized how strong the bird faction actually could be (before realizing how hard it could fall). Unfortunately, I was playing this faction, and from the get go all eyes were focused on beating me down, from which I could never recover. I ended up just being the one that tried to prevent others from winning, with no hope of winning myself. I ended up hating it after just that one game, and was perplexed why so many people loved it. This opened my eyes as to why, while still channeling my frustrations with it.

[@KitSixty322]

I love seeing Chris in all these recent videos! The joys of being self-employed.

[@francescotamburini5790]

Just an amazing review. I just bought Root and I’m looking forward to enjoy it with my friends, but I understand and appreciate the opinion in this video. It is a sexy, intriguing and layered game, and I do not think that admitting that it has some limits takes too much away from how daring and ambitious it is. It probably will allow me to appreciate it more for what it is.

[@RepOfAntarctica]

It's about now that I wonder if they'll ever make a video returning to Root, now that a new deck, more vagabond styles, new factions, revised rules AND an overhauled ai system have been established. Leder Games has worked their tail off making this game better, & while a couple issues here still linger, their passion shows. SU&SD has also shown a positive interest in the expansions when they bring it up in the podcast, so it'd be interesting for them to catch up on the new content. With the newest expansions (supported & in development at this comment's posting) the game will have 11 possible factions (9 "armies" & 2 vagabonds), 8 ai, 4 maps (now available in neoprene), 2 decks, and 2 new systems to further drive the forest mad (13 hirelings & 4 landmarks). It's far beyond the 7 possible factions, 1 ai, 2 maps & 1 deck considered in this review, & arguably more balanced. The obvious questions, of course, are if base Root stands better with at least the new deck or revised rules, the cheapest investment you would put into the game (US$60-70), & if the factions are worth the further investment.

[@TheJohtaja]

As you can see, now they have! I'm off to see the new video in question!

[@xenonmaximus1]

Love the scenes of humor you guys infuse every video with

[@mofire5674]

I don't quite understand the point system / pacing frustrations. "If a player is behind, they are less likely to win" and "If everyone's score is close, the winner feels arbitrary." don't make any sense to me. How else should it be? If the best player always wins, there's no hope for newer players to have some luck on their side, and if people that are behind aren't any less likely to win, then it IS entirely arbitrary.

[@goodjessehobbies]

I dont know why it took me so many years to subscribe, but here I am. Wonderful videos.

[@professorpsych]

My. Lord. This review was perfect. You perfectly captured the gripes and greats about this game. This review was insanely validating.

[@ricardobdonoso]

Love and thanks for the amazing job from Brazil!

[@mechasduo004]

I still fall into the pro crowd. I've played several games, and have honestly yet to win, but maybe that's what keeps me coming back. Its aesthetically a treat and we use the game as a "Game night opener" to other treats that contain a bit more balance. My fiancée isn't a strategy game/area of control fan but seeing her face light up as she makes choices as the "Mouse toast clan" that spread like the flu, gives me enough to come back to this game again and again. Giving the factions their own playstyle is not only very thematic for the board but allows those who have role playing hearts to really embrace the actions their factions are taking. When I played the cats, I felt frustration that the Mouse toast clan was hampering my building/exploitation empire! As the Eyrie I loved sending my murderous flocks of birdies to rain pain on the Marquise... but I will agree with you on the point that figuring out Root was much more satisfying than mastering it... but not enough to turn me off from the game. but I still have to figure out the Lizard mammals... and that may be the morsel left untouched on the plate luring me back.

[@MasonLopez]

This might be my favorite review you've ever done. The way you've expressed how you feel about the game was just pitch perfect.

[@Platonick66]

I invested a lot of time into Feudum, another imaginative game with lots of great ideas and complex rules that I enjoy, but wanted to enjoy more. I still like it and would still play it but maybe other games are just better. All that said I am glad for designers like these who ask questions about the mores of boardgaming and keep pushing the edges about what can be. Thank you for a helpful review. I might still buy it!

[@someVengefulGhost]

Thank you for this. A friend has been very over-excited for this game, so it's always nice to get some perspective. He won't listen to me, but the information is still appreciated. This particular format for your video reviews is also awesome.

[@NB-jp3wm]

This is exactly what a review should be like. Absolutely perfect balance of real pros and cons and actual experience playing the game. Thank you so much for this!

[@ijskender]

I bought the game recently, most of the problems balanced with expansions, and I must say I LOVE it, and so do my friends! Thank you for the honest review!!!

[@lekahuna]

It sounds like one of the main issues with this game is the visible victory track. Am I right? What about trying to fix this issue with hidden victory points that everybody earns instead of moving on the track? Anybody tried that already?

[@ArnieHorta]

LeKahuna but this is fixed in the game already. There are a set of alternate victory cards that people can get and then play when they want. You can keep this alternate win condition s crest until you are ready and then everyone else has one turn to stop you. I was in a situation where I was way in the back and almost won because I held one of these cards until the correct moment...

[@beruga]

@@ArnieHorta Do you think those alternate win conditions add strategy or randomness to the game? If there are a small set of them then it seems like it might be possible to deduce another player's secret win condition, which can set up some interesting opportunities for bluffs/mindgames that add strategic depth. On the other hand if there are too many of these cards then wins might happen spontaneously and the game would become random and chaotic. I'd be curious to know what these cards are like, as this seems to fix one of the main issues Quinns had with the game.

[@ArnieHorta]

beruga I believe that they add strategy. You don’t automatically get one. They get dealt out with the regular cards as time goes on. If you get one, you can then try to get close to fulfilling it and then reveal it. However, they all have alternative uses. You could use it for the alternative use, but then anyone at the table can claim it and invoke it as their win condition. Also if you play one of these alternative conditions, it replaces your normal win condition. You then can no longer win on points.

[@tonyh8371]

Brilliant! I want to get this game to teach to my young nephews and niece. I like how this game incorporate a strong foundaton, on which, with some creativity, this game can be an endless source of get-together for learning through imagination. I was worried about the game getting stale, but I appreciate and love this idea. With a little thinking outside the box, the set parameters for victory can be overcome and expanded upon, in which a strong foundation is not hampered by it's self imposed rigidity. Having never played this, I won't know until I buy and play the game, but thanks for sharing a great idea. This certainly can be applied to expansions for extending it's replayability? Can't wait to get my hands on this and share it with my family. Awesome review. Awesome comments. Thank you both. Liked and subscribed. @@ArnieHorta

[@lordbebech]

Love your reviews, they are so much deeper than other reviewers.

[@MrClawdew]

I'm surprised he didn't talk about the alternate win conditions because they address a lot of his concerns about the game. They are really important to the game design that he kind of just ignored completely

[@birb125]

Was that even a thing back then?

[@nonameisaname8480]

@@birb125 it wasn't

[@MiaTyrnfae]

@@nonameisaname8480 It was. Domination cards were included in the base game.

[@Enkufka]

They noted in the podcast and elsewhere that they made the decision not to include that because of how little it helped, citing how small the chances of success with domination actually are (as reported by other players, not just their own group.)

[@stolenidentity1152]

Yes ! The game can be "fixed" (to me it's perfect) by forcing the wincons like Risk.

[@memebut59]

Each time I come by your channel to watch some random game review, I wish I had your kind of humor. Or friends with that kind of humor. Or neighbours. And at the end I remember how french I am... And I start again one more of your reviews, just to wish it a little more...

[@faxanadu13]

My new favorite game, I played into the wee hours of the morning and can’t wait for the expansion to become available again

[@sethbeebe5581]

faxanadu13 Same here

[@caseycbenn]

The end of the game just happens in many cases. This is very different than what you envision at the beginning. You imagine really just dominating a set amount of areas long enough that the conditions for winning become available. Instead the victory points create an arbitrary end which the positions on the board do not reflect. Dominate cards give a real sense of board area dominance goals which is really what the game implies that it is aiming you towards. What is interesting is that I can see a pattern where area dominance with building creation over time as well as combat scoring could be combined as a winning goals that would make the game more unified in concept for all the factions minus the vagabonds. There is enough coherency here, even within the asymmetry, to give the game a rewarding and satisfying true end game checkmate for the factions that would be clear and create tension. It would include victory points as part of the win condition but not allow simply crossing the victory point goal as a sudden win. I'd say Victory points, dominance of three areas over three turns, and having killed x amount of enemy units would then give each faction mulitple goals to have to attain and would create a coherent easily seen endgame condition that would feel more like a real checkmate like in chess.

[@ianism3]

it's really bugging me that he keeps calling the RIverfolk beavers when really they're otters...

[@RazBaz07]

Ok... paused it immediately just to write this: I've been waiting the whole day for this since I saw in the notifications that this was up! I got my new 'Root'-tshirt in the mail today... have put it on and poured me a glass of wine. Now just press play and enjoy.... aaaahh.

[@RazBaz07]

Watched it... and now I'm a bit sad... ah well, I've got wine at least...

[@fagelhd]

@@RazBaz07 I know I'm late, but I totally can relate. Same happend to me with their Scythe Review. It feels harsh, but it doesn't have to. In fact we should be happy: We can get joy from something that they can't get.

[@Vysetron]

I'm honestly not surprised Quinns isn't super into Root. It put me off initially because I was worried that it was just a game of "spike the leader", like Kill Doctor Lucky but with way more rules. When I first played a friend's KS copy my reaction was "Wait, that's it? We learned all that for this?" It's not though! It's actually got really cool interplay, and I say that as someone who isn't very good at it. The game seems a lot better when you play fast and loose with alliances and make the game more political than strategic, if that makes sense. As a strategy game it felt iffy. As a social game (admittedly with lots of rules), Root was something special. This is also why the riverfolk are so great and why I'm sad they're currently awaiting reprint. Love them otters.

[@frantz2000]

But if it's just a social/political game why have all the rules and mechanical overhead? That's the point. The more you explore the engines and understand the levers the more you realize all that didn't matter.

[@Vysetron]

@@frantz2000 Because the rules enable the interesting interactions. Have you played it?

[@beruga]

@@Vysetron I haven't played Root but lately I've found myself avoiding complex games with many components and lengthy rules explanations. This is especially the case for social games in which the interactions with your friends should be the driving force in the game (e.g., Resistance, Witness) rather than weaving through a complex web of rules.

[@davetheandroid5382]

You mean beavers. ;)

[@Turgon86]

@@davetheandroid5382 Nope. They're otters

[@mrs.featherbottom5901]

Isn’t this just journalism and criticism at its VERY BEST? And in a format for the modern age as well. The internet was made for people like you.

[@auroralong5437]

Psycho joke was hilarious

[@brumogden7704]

That was my favorite joke!

[@benjaminsessler2677]

Question: Have you played the game more recently with the rules / balance updates? They are on the 4th (I think) revision. Just wondering how the changes color your opinion.

[@Goblincow]

"Have the birds built up a decree so massive that they're killing everything, like the killer in the popular Alfred Hitchcock movie, -The Birds- Psycho?"

[@uchilaandre]

Great review, I was excited for this game but also really worried, you made very good points, I think my interest has dialed down thanks to you. Keep up The good work

[@davidgoldan2552]

Just bought the game...And it's amazing

Ya it is, but those guys are just into Twilight Imperium (a joke game)

[@DudeWatIsThis]

@ Shut your fucking mouth, Twilight Imperium is one of the best boardgames ever made.

[@BRNRDNCK]

@@DudeWatIsThis What other board games on a massive scale (ie, long game, lots of pieces, huge experience) do you recommend? Does Dune fall into that category?

[@dwarrenmsp]

This review encapsulates my feelings on ROOT. I want it so much because it's gorgeous (and the game makers are locals for me), but I'm terrified to own it and play it with others. Also, the video production of this episode is probably the best I've seen from SUSD. Well Done.

[@chrisobleness612]

Fantastic review, loved getting to see the ideas of the game, and so nice to get a feel for the game without needing to buy it first. Thanks!

[@jeffreychandler8418]

I played root a bit and I just absolutely loved the eyrie, they are soooo compelling and so "glass cannon"

[@paulspo]

Amazing review. Really went to the core of what makes a game great. Excellent thoughts and superbly produced. Always good for a laugh, too!

[@Swift2120]

I want to see a live stream of you guys playing this

[@wun_zee3599]

I second this

[@davidgoldan2552]

I third this

[@kevintran6738]

I fourth this

[@ForgeofSouls]

Hell yes

[@GretSeat]

I fifth this

[@jasonnewell7036]

This just goes to show how much different players can have a different experience of a game. I got this game from the kickstarter, and have had a fantastic time with it. I have not found the issues Quins mentions to be problematic at all. It surprises me you didn't mention the dominance cards as a winning condition. The lizards, while tricky to learn, are one of the more interesting and tactically clever factions in the game. They give the woodland alliance a run for its money in how insidious they can be. I do agree strongly on two points, though; that the mechanical marquis is not fun to play against (as far as I have found) and the Riverfolk (who are otters, not beavers) are one of the best factions in the game. Still, quite a thorough review, and you stuck by your opinions. And people are bound to not see eye to eye on every issue. For my money, this was an excellent game and a staunch part of my collection. Also, I need "One Man Womble Warlord" on a t-shirt or something.

[@shagua2]

Love what you are doing with the lightning for emphasis, expressing disappointment, etc

[@jokerES2]

I've watched this review several times as I've slowly been becoming better at Root and getting deeper into the hobby, and I think SUSD needs to review with the moles, crows, and the Exiles and Partisans deck. I think some of the problems originate from: Reach - the calculation for an "interesting" game in the original and the first expansion required someone to play the Cats in every game. With the addition of the moles, this is no longer the case. The deck - honestly the Exiles and Partisans deck changes the formula up as it enables factions to take on aspects of others. It feels thematic in a way that the base deck did not. The thing that I like most about Root is the thing I like most about TI4; the asymmetry allows people to "dig in" on favorites while also enabling small decisions round by round to build. And it's able to occur in a timeframe that allows you to move onto another game between lunch and dinner. Edit: One small other note - coming from a group of Magic: The Gathering Commander players, Root was simple to teach. Upkeep, Main Phase, Cleanup jives with the mechanics already in MTG, so this might be another reason why it's one of the big "misses" I think SUSD has had.

[@rasin9391]

Strongly agree! The Seconds addition has removed the only aspects of the game I didn't Like.

[@MAabacadaba]

I love that at 11:06 (start watching at 11:00), when Quinns says "sexy new woodland love interest" the camera decides to make the background a bit darker (or was it a passing cloud, or an intentional visual by Matt/Quinns???).

[@mattlees9342]

MAD CLOUDS

[@MAabacadaba]

Dude, the timing was incredibly theatrical. "Let me tell you about my mum." **DARKNESS FALLS** I'm glad you kept it.

[@dilarus8231]

Okay, so why didn't you mention the dominance cards? They're there to fix the problems you mentioned with scoring. I love you guys to bit but this is a big oversight and the one time I've disagreed strongly with how you presented a board game's flaws.

[@orkmad12]

Watched this review in an attempt to decide between Root and Brass: Birmingham. Decided on Brass (barely), but my local store didn't have it in stock...but they did have Root. No regrets! I'm already looking at expansions

[@liampeterson8299]

my board game OCD triggered when you moved a circle token onto a building space

[@SomeTomfoolery]

I was literally shaking in pain

[@synthscript]

New high water mark for game reviews. Incredible depth and sincerity.

[@michaelp6313]

This is the coolest game I'll never play again. Spot on review.

[@bartdevuyst]

The behind the scenes cut from 4:50 is brilliant!

[@Thelon3000]

well, this was the best review i've ever seen of ... anything, really. Kudos

[@Nasenblutn]

Great review! Made me really curious and set the expectation at the right level. I now want to definitely buy this game and find out if my gaming group feels the same after a couple of games. Thanks for the review. Thumps up!

[@FMD-FullMetalDragon]

This is a COIN game without the obvious military aspects normally seen in COIN war games.

[@classicsubmarineguy5477]

The original COIN concept, "Syria and the Levant: the battle for Damascus" had to be rethemed because they didn't get the war finished in time. its why the riverfolk expansion (originally Alex Jones Info Wars: the battle for truth") contains rules for a Russian agent, foreign fighters and a lizard man cult.

[@niallreid7664]

COIN?

[@briansmolinski5154]

COunter INsurgency. It's a series of games published by GMT that depict irregular or guerrilla warfare (Vietnam, Afghanistan, Cuba to name a few historical settings)

[@grilledflatbread4692]

I don't know how you guys played with your stuffed animals as a kid. Mine always got into wars and alliances and stuff.

[@niallreid7664]

@@grilledflatbread4692 Mine were all superheroes who helped spiderman.

[@patrickshaw411]

Always felt like Shut Up and Sit down reviews are brutally honest. Not that it’s a bad thing, but my group of people and I aren’t as critical of board gaming I guess. I intend on picking it up. It looks fantastic!

[@rapturecase]

This is exactly what I want out of a review.

[@rapturecase]

Seriously. It doesn't just communicate your feelings about this game, it transposes them onto my own flesh-self.

[@wargamesontoast]

Lots of respect for voicing your opinion on a very popular game. I don’t agree with your conclusion, however, you made your points expertly to the point I can’t really say you’re wrong. Excellent review

[@bartdevuyst]

Brilliant ending!

[@mikecunningham4682]

Heard you talk about this on the podcast, was very excited to watch the video. It sounds like such an intriguing game.

[@JaKamps]

"Where's my beavers? I found my beavers!" Welcome to puberty.

[@markpapenfuss1111]

Jake Kamps exactly what I was thinking....lol

[@JaKamps]

Glad I wasn't the only one... God help us! Ha.

[@mazel612]

This video enlightend my saturday morning! In my opinion your reviews are the funniest, best produced and somehow deepest in the growing boardgaming universe. Big love from Germany :)

[@si2foo]

but from the sounds of it the most experienced player (the host) was manipulating the less experienced players into doing things and not being happy because of it

[@UberTastical22]

Jeez what an intense review. I feel you brother.

[@pm71241]

The "but" part reminds me of the old Civilization games. I've played plenty of those where the actual winner in the end was often the guy actually coming in second. ... since it would inevitable end up with someone looking like on a sure path to victory and everybody ganging up to prevent that - which they would often succeed in, only to clear the path for number 2.

[@rmsgrey]

Or Munchkin, where you don't so much win as be the person in the right place when everyone else runs out of ways to stop someone winning...

[@pm71241]

Munchkin is more like a generator of ridiculous situations you can laugh at then an actual game... AFAIR.

[@mattroso1210]

Really love the BTS style scenes in this review! Its a Unique viewpoint we don't get to see a whole bunch and makes for interesting and organic transitions to different opinions!

[@kroomiester]

“The lizards are kind of bad” “it’s a sacrifice to play the lizards” Me watching root tournaments this year “wow, SUSD was wrong about the lizards”

[@luffysh]

where did you watch those tournaments? :)

[@kroomiester]

@@luffysh look up space cats peace turtles root tournament. Or root winter tournament

[@luffysh]

@@kroomiester thanks man!

[@andrewnewell1142]

The copy of the lizards they had were incredibly weak, they’ve been buffed with further editions

[@davidcooke779]

Fantastic review. Still can't decide if I should buy it!