The Future of Battery Charging in Van and RV Power Systems featuring the VE.Smart Network

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[@rosslukeman]

Get the Ultimate Van Power Cheat Sheet: www.rosslukeman.com/vanpower

[@fightington]

my understanding of electricity clicked when i understood what electrical potential is. it applies here i think. good vid mate

[@mattr7229]

Ross... thank you so much! This video is exactly what I needed as I am setting up a system the Victron MPPT 100/30 and Phoenix 12/30. You rock!

[@rosslukeman]

Glad that helped Matt! Thanks for tuning in!

[@briannorwick]

So good! Just setup the VE network after watching this

[@rosslukeman]

Thanks Brian! Great to hear that helped you set things up.

[@frankstocker5475]

Great review, thanks for all the time you put into it.

[@rosslukeman]

Thanks Frank, I appreciate you checking it out!

[@mattr7229]

Thanks for this video! I am completing a Victron build (Lynx distributor, MPPT charge controller, Multiplus, and DC-DC charger) and I wasn't sure about creating the Smart Network... you explained it here. Thanks!

[@rosslukeman]

Sounds like an awesome system, thanks for watching. This is an obscure topic, glad you will be able to implement this in your system!

[@explor794]

Excellent Analogies

[@tdapple1]

Thank You 🙏. I’m so thankful I found your channel. This has to be one of the most underrated KZbin Channels. I’m a new Subscriber & I will send everyone I know in the Van 🚐 Life Community Etc your way. The Free Cheat Sheet you provide is Simply Brilliant! Thank You 🙏

[@MichaelRyanCaputo]

This was super helpful, thank you so much!

[@rosslukeman]

Hi Michael, thanks for tuning in. I'm glad you found it helpful!

[@alexb.6800]

Hi Ross! Very useful work you’re doing here. Keep it up! A quick question: is there a way to synchronize Blue Smart Charger IP22 and a Multiplus?

[@gregnorman3183]

Thanks again for another great video! I have a question. On the Victron DC-DC charger, would you happen to know voltage and amp of remote on/off switch

[@pieterbarneveld9518]

Great video

[@rosslukeman]

Thanks Pieter!

[@fester.]

great video and well organised, my blue smart charger in the uk does not have the ve smart networking like all my other victron items so i guess this a new version

[@rosslukeman]

Interesting to hear, I wonder if you could update the firmware? I have done this on other components and "found" features that I thought had gone away. Edit: I found this note on the VE.Smart Page at Victron: Only Blue Smart IP22 Chargers starting production date week 24 of 2020 (serial number HQ2024nnnnn and newer) are supported. The hardware revision printed on the product label should be “hw rev 02” or higher.

[@ZaiLH]

Thanks for creating these excellent videos! One question: In the case of unbalanced cells, can the battery connect and signal this over the VE.smart network and stop the chargers? or do we need to add a BMS for that?

[@rosslukeman]

Hey there, thanks for checking out another video. On the cell balancing, this is typically handled internally by each battery. So while the VE.Smart network could convey this info, at this time it does not. Cell balancing happens on internal BMS batteries such as Battleborn without adjusting the chargers. The only exception might be the Victron Smart Lithium batteries, which have internal cell balancing, paired with an external BMS. I have had my cells out of balance after having the battery sit a couple of months. When I fired up the system, the battery and BMS worked together to turn the inverter-charger on and off in multiple cycles until the battery's cells were balanced again. This is the only battery/system I've ever seen do that. In this scenario, you can see the individual cells on the VictronConnect app, where the higher-voltage cells bleed off and raise the lower-voltage cells. This system was shown in this video: kzbin.info/www/bejne/aXy4mZ6ara6jpsk

[@larryvolenec9851]

Ross, your videos are fantastic, with great explanations and easy-to-follow demonstrations. We would be interested in your comments based on our observations that tie into your video. We have been running a Victron system for three years, including a BMV-712, 100/50 Solar charge controller, Multiplus 12/3000, and 400Ahrs of non-Smart Victron Lithium batteries with VE Smart networking. In addition, we have a Nations 280Amp alternator with a Balmar MC-614 voltage regulator charging the lithium batteries. We have observed that the solar charge controller will drop its charging way down if the alternator is running. This also occurs if we are on shore power. It appears that the shore power and alternator battery charging raises the voltage on the bus making the solar charge controller think that the batteries are at a higher state of charge than they are. It is not an issue but just an observation.

[@rosslukeman]

Hi Larry, great point. I think this is a good example of the chargers reacting to each other without necessarily communicating directly.

[@nilsrain]

This what I hope happens, thanks.

[@HomebuiltHELP]

Thanks Ross for great presentation. Was wondering how multiple chargers on the same battery do not get "confused" by voltages of other chargers wired together. In other words, how do they detect just the battery voltage when deciding how to charge and not pick up their fellow chargers' charging voltage (which would be high and constant)?

[@CristianBarraza]

syncronized charging / VE.Smart networking

[@HomebuiltHELP]

@@CristianBarraza My question is in regards to chargers without this capability.

[@rosslukeman]

Great question. The answer is that chargers are slightly affected by the other chargers putting voltage into the system, but the chargers will climb up to their setpoint voltage (i.e. of 14.4 volts or the like), but they do not start at that voltage. If the battery is at 12.2 volts, the chargers will put out 12.3, then 12.4 and step the battery up to that target voltage. So even with one charger going, when a second charger comes online, it can tell that the battery has not reached its target and will begin charging it with voltage slightly above what it reads the battery to be.

[@bobrobi4328]

Very nice video with a good explanation but there is a big problem with real-life operation problem number one if you have more than one charger one of the charges will always take the lead it may shut the other one down or it may reduce the capacity of one or the other and the other will charge it a hard higher rate this almost never works out it is especially problematic if the charge rates are low

[@samspeaks9413]

Appreciate the great videos trying to help all of us out here. I have a Renogy 50 amp dc to dc charger with mppt that I would like to install in my class c motorhome. It has lithium batteries, a auxiliary boost switch and on board generator. Can't find any information on how to do the install. Can you help. Thanks so much

[@rosslukeman]

Hi Sam, thanks for checking out my videos, good to hear they're making an impact on you. In short you would probably leave the boost switch and generator as-is, and splice the Renogy in there as a separate part of the system. Overhauling RV electrical is something I consult on, if you would like to book a call, I can look at photos and give more detail. The calls are here: www.rosslukeman.com/offerings Thanks, Ross

[@keithanderson9606]

Great Information. I was wondering if you can use a DC to DC charger from your alternator charging lithium batteries and hook 400 watts of solar to the DC to DC charger also. I've heard this works with no need for a solar charge controller.

[@rosslukeman]

Hey Keith, interesting question. I see a couple of potential issues. First, the DC to DC controller shown here for 12-volt alternators accepts 10-17 volts. The majority of solar panels/arrays will have a higher voltage than this, with solar panels starting out around 20 volts and going up to maybe 39 volts. Also, even if you were able to get solar under the voltage threshold, you would max out your charging at 30 amps, and probably forfeit another 15 amps you could have gotten to increase the charging rate. Renogy has a combo solar/alternator charger, but it too has a maximum amperage that will throttle down what you could have gotten to about 600 watts. I like to put different chargers for different power sources, because at the end of the day, they are different animals with different power characteristics, as noted above.

[@JohnBCN]

Wonderful explanation Ross. I was wondering what happens if you have such a network and then plug all the chargers into a Cerbo. Does the Cerbo take over control of the changing and disable the network, or is there a possible conflict?

[@rosslukeman]

Hey John, there is usually no conflict when there are multiple controls or data sources, typically one will just be ignored. Here is what Victron says under the "Limitations" section of their VE.Smart page (www.victronenergy.com/media/pg/VE.Smart_Networking/en/limitations.html): "VE.Smart Networking is designed for small systems which do not have a GX device - such as a Color Control GX or Venus GX - controlling the chargers (e.g. in an ESS system) - See FAQ Q5. In systems which the GX device is used for logging purposes only, VE.Smart Networking can be used to allow chargers to synchronise, or even receive information from sensors. Keep in mind that if, for some reason, the same information (i.e. voltage sense) is being received by the charger over BLE and VE.Can/VE.Direct, the information coming over BLE (through VE.Smart Networking) will be ignored." The Cerbo is a GX device, so would fall under what it says above. The last thing they said is basically if the devices are hardwired together, it will take its information from the data cable over anything coming in over Bluetooth (radio) signal. Hope that helps!

[@JohnBCN]

@@rosslukeman That’s very helpful. Thanks.

[@davidpatrick1813]

Thanks Ross. I am having issues with the dc to dc reading correctly when charging but can see at the shunt it is charging ... I know settings is the thing but not finding good support. Does Victron have a link or do they only give support through their dealers?

[@rosslukeman]

Sorry to hear you're having issues with it David. I would pore over the manual one more time before browsing the Victron Community forums. Some of the dealers are on the forum (such as Bay Marine) and if all else fails I reach out to Peter Kennedy from PKYS.com (one of the largest Victron distributors). I have had to troubleshoot the Orions too.

[@robertvasi]

Hello, very informative! How do you add lead acid battery in to the mix? Thanks

[@rosslukeman]

Hi Robert, thanks for checking out my video. That is a very broad question! Lead-acid should wire in the same as a lithium battery. If you want to see an overall diagram, then I would check out my PDF at rosslukeman.com/vanpower Thanks, Ross

[@kristersjodin4234]

Do you setup 3 different ve networks in the 3 channel charger? Since the 3 batteries have different voltages and temps, or needs. I have also noticed that if you have two mppts (one to each battery) they need their own ve networks to get the right Voltage and temp parameters.

[@rosslukeman]

Hi Krister, in my case no I set up a single network to synchronize multiple chargers to charge one battery bank. Thanks for tuning and sharing your experience!

[@tonya6403]

Nice videos. IP65 & 67 still dont have it unfortunately

[@rosslukeman]

Thanks Tony, I guess they're taking some time to roll out this technology. Thanks for letting us know about the IP65 & 67.

[@Van-d.I.y]

Ross I enjoy your videos but do you work for Victron? I understand that they are the best but some of us can’t afford some of there products so we use renogy cause there more affordable will you ever do anything on Renogy products?

[@rosslukeman]

Thanks for watching, I may cover Renogy in the future. I cover Victron because the majority of the customers I serve use them. I don't work with Victron directly and am about to branch out into other brands.

[@fredbrewer5880]

Ross, why do you like non-isolated dc-dc chargers? is it cost and what else? Thanks!

[@rosslukeman]

Hey Fred, great question. It's because the vehicle power system and my rear power system negatives are not isolated from each other. Both systems have their negatives connected to the chassis, which is the "conductor" returning the electrons to the alternator and completing the circuit. This is just how I do my systems at this point and so the non-isolated version matches my overall system design. Other brands such as the Sterling are non-isolated, but it's not stated as such, it's just how it comes. So when I tried the Victron, I got the one that matched what I was doing with the Sterlings. The isolated version of the Orion allows the negatives from the front and rear systems to not interface with each other at all, except where they converge at the Orion charger. I personally have never had a need for this. Hope that helps!

[@RicardoSicks]

Hi Ross, I have one random question haunting me. I have an Orion B2B charger, the manual says "mount vertically with the power terminal pointing down". The charger fits optimally in my system mounted horizontally, generally, I follow the manufacturers' recommendations, but what reasons can you see that this electronic device must be mounted vertically. Also as an aside, Victon further adds to mount on a "non-flammable surface", I understand these tend to run rather HOT, but virtually every van installation I've seen has these mounted on wood.. what gives? Thanks in advance!!!

[@rosslukeman]

I suppose they want you to mount them vertically because their heat sink fins are oriented that way, and would allow an air current to rise up behind the unit. If you mount it horizontally it kind of stops this natural airflow of hot air rising and creating a draft behind the unit. We must not take this for granted as similar B2B chargers often have a cooling fan. This one does not, so we need to not impede its natural cooling. They are about the warmest components in my systems (because the amperage through them is usually maxed out to their rating). That said, I mount them vertically on painted plywood. In my opinion this is totally fine, they just get warm but not hot. Hope that helps!

[@pedalpusher2008]

If I am using a battery equipped with a BMS that has a temperature sensitive relay, such as the Daly Smart BMS, then would the functions provided by the BMV-712 be redundant?

[@rosslukeman]

In this instance, most BMS's are battery-centric and would shut down the battery, but leave the chargers on. In this instance the BMV-712 with a VE.Smart network would also shut down the chargers at a low-temperature setpoint.

[@nilsrain]

I'm putting together a system with these same four victron products. You describe three sources all filling the tire at the same time like that's ok, but won't that overload the max charge current on the battery? 30+30+20=80 > 40A max charge on my SOK 200Ah battery. Some other comments here imply this problem fixes itself, but I want to be sure before I buy all the parts.

[@rosslukeman]

Hey there, you are right in that you need to account for your specific battery bank and what it can handle, both continuous and max charge rates. Frankly the charge rate on the SOK is a little low for its size. However, what can be said is that these charge sources work in different scenarios. Having your engine running, while plugged in, with your solar panels in full sun would need to happen to reach this hypothetical peak of 80 amps. Typically shore power and alternator power do not happen simultaneously for any significant length of time. So that changes things. Great question, thanks for tuning in!

[@nilsrain]

Thanks for relying,@@rosslukeman. I appreciate the care you put into your advice. I thought getting a single 200Ah battery would be simpler, but 2x100Ah would have eliminated this problem. Hoping @Larry Volnec's observation that they self-regulate holds true for me. Cheers.

[@garyzimmerman8679]

Why doesn’t Victron make a combo MPPT/DC-DC/AC charger in one unit, and we could have programming to allow the charger to prioritize input out to the battery, or even use all to improve output amperage. Renogy and RedArc both make a DC-DC / MPPT charger combination. Redarc even has one for $1800 that includes all three. Just wish it wasn’t $1800

[@rosslukeman]

The All-in-Ones are nice from an install perspective, but I would say there is value to a more modular approach as well, as the end user can size each part of the system for their needs. As long as they network together and talk to each other. I think it's ease of install vs. how customizable things are. Victron historically has focused on "pro" installers so their stuff is not necessarily made for ease of install, although it's arguably pretty easy, especially programming with their Bluetooth app. My two cents...

[@garyzimmerman8679]

@@rosslukeman you do make a good point. Just like in home entertainment centers, going with seperate u it’s allows a little me flexibility with features absolutely, allowing for more custom configurations based on need and uses. One of the other reasons why I went with redarc is it was designed for rough handling to handle hi vibrations and jolts of “Off Roading” adventure campers beyond the normal extremes of simple normal RV’s. The one thing I wished my redarc had was higher capacity charging for both alternator and ac charging. We don’t have the space or time for a huge solar array either. So it suffices for most “adventure back country camping” I do use a few victron pieces like the battery protect, and battery monitor.

[@rosslukeman]

Hi Gary, good point on the need for vibration-proof components from RedArc. Glad that made sense about modularity offering flexibility. I do think that you make a good point about higher alternator/shore charging. That's why I haven't covered a lot of all-in-ones, I like to max out charging speed, especially like you mentioned if one of the charging sources like solar is minimal, maximizing elsewhere is more critical. I've heard good things about RedArc though.

[@garyzimmerman8679]

@@rosslukeman I like redarc a lot, I know the quality is there. However the price point is really really high! Vibration resistant devices are only really critical if your going into environments that would create more vibration then the normal paved roads that 95% of Americans travel. Even for the majority of those in RC’s and Travel Trailers. So far the Victron and Renogy devices I have been using have been handling the additional stress. But wondering when they will give out.