Roth-Theodorovic Prototype Pistol

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Georg Roth's company in Austria presided over a wonderful variety of interesting handgun development, and this is one example of that lineage. Roth's licensed or purchased the patent for this pistol from its inventor, Wasa Theodorovic, and turned it over to his engineer Karel Krnka to develop (I'm simplifying this). The design used a long recoil action and a rotating bolt, elements which would later find their way into the designs of Rudolf Frommer, who worked at FEG where the Roth pistols were manufactured.
About 80 of these Roth-Theodorovic-Krnka pistols were made, with no two quite the same. They were in a constant process of development and improvement, and this (serial number 77) is one of the very last ones. It exhibits a quite refined fire control system with single and double action modes as well as a decocker. It is made yet more interesting by the addition of a grip safety, which does not appear to be a factory element. Instead, it appears to be a design patented by Tambour and installed by a contemporary gunsmith. Tambour safeties were put in a number of other types of guns at the time, including Mannlicher 1901/1905 pistols.
/ forgottenweapons
Related:
Frommer 1901: • Frommer 1901 Pistol
Roth-Theodorovic-Krnka 1895: • Krnka 1895 Semiauto Pi...
Roth-Steyr M1907: • Roth-Steyr 1907 Pistol
Roth-Steyr M1907 Slow Motion: • Slow Motion: Roth Stey...
Roth-Steyr M1907 Shooting Match: • Roth Steyr 1907 at a R...

[@ZGryphon]

I love how the insane, baroque complexity of the Austro-Hungarian Empire is reflected in its native firearms design language.

[@Scaevola9449]

The most compelling reason to wish for the Austro-Hungarian Empire's survival is that, had that come to pass, modern guns might not be hideous plastic boxes.

[@ZGryphon]

@@Scaevola9449 The Steyr M family suggests they would at least be interesting-looking plastic boxes.

[@Scaevola9449]

@@ZGryphon Steyr M family guns look alright, but they're still clearly influenced by the modern gun design sensibility. I want baroque mag-forward bullshit with brown bakelite grips.

[@Dimetropteryx]

From an engineering standpoint, I find all of this incredibly fascinating. I can't get over how each designer had a different solution during the early days of the semi-automatic pistol. Today it almost looks like the whole evolution of semi-autos has just stagnated (whether it actually has or not).

[@Saya-fs1jo]

it really has, everything's already been figured out, and the simplicity of a browning linkless, virtually that's all that's used just a few px4/cougar and a couple pdw style arms use rotating barrels anymore, toggle lock is almost limited to just Beretta, Steyr m9, Springfield xd, glock, m&ps all incredibly similar internally. the stagnation is incredible. but optics, compensating devices prototype counterbalance guns that's really where the advancements are being made now lights and lasers to. but its yet another reason to love the old world items true craftsmanship and more unique good ideas forgotten to modern industry but they have character few modern arms can compete with

[@witeshade]

Saya 1 is it fair to use the word "stagnant" though? that word implies something bad, whereas until some crazy new material is discovered or we change something fundamental like the use of cartridges, it's more a matter of humanity having pretty much solved the problem of making effective hand weapons. All that's really left at this point is to tweak the ratios of price and performance and weight.

[@Dimetropteryx]

Daniel G That's a trap humanity has jumped into more than a few times throughout history; Assuming that we have optimized things and that there is no more room for improvement. It has never happened. Take any invention, no matter how old and simple, and it has been improved upon until the present day, sometimes in leaps, most of the time only gradually.

[@witeshade]

Dimetropteryx well that's why I mentioned a new material or new technology. I think it is not unreasonable to say that after literal thousands of man-years of engineering that we pretty much know how to make a gun out of the steel and polymer we have now. We know we can make better ones but we also know that the price to performance ratio isn't worth it. We could start using battle rifles again with effective ranges out to miles but we also know that the weight tradeoff isn't worth it. Now obviously if a new lighter or stronger material comes available, or some new manufacturing technique comes online then the race will be back in full force.

[@Dimetropteryx]

Jimmy De'Souza " I mean look at swords for example. Beyond stylistic choices or doctrinal differences (ie brass vs steel handguards) prettymuch the only thing that swords have done for the past ~2000 years has been vary in size and weight." Materials. Manufacturing methods. And I'm not going to discount responses to changing conditions, like the evolution of armor, shields, firearms etc. "Like I would say the concept of a table hasnt changed, well, ever." But tables themselves have, and that's the point.

[@capt.bart.roberts4975]

What a beautiful piece of engineering.

[@MilitaryHistoryVisualized]

I knew we have a long tradition of building small arms, but still I am quite often baffled how much is "out there".

[@JanEikeK]

and this ones insides are exceptionally beautifully made...

[@JamesIII]

Really nice inside, cant make any more complicated without electricity :D

[@JamLeGull]

Military History Visualized could you and Bismarck (maybe Forgotton Weapons/InRange too) please do a Luftchat about aircraft weapons? That would be super amazing.

[@stanislavczebinski994]

@@JamesIII G11 ;-)

[@samsonthemighty9254]

Wkwkwk

[@matthewkriebel7342]

I really like the idea of a smooth DAO duty pistol with an option to cock back to single action for a single aimed shot. Most of the advantages of a revolver right there.

[@matthewkriebel7342]

nicholas cunningham because you're still under stress after the first shot, and might jerk out an accidental discharge. Or be running or fighting with your gun out. Pressing the decocker or just good practice and trigger discipline would fix that, but I'm talking about police and soldiers who seldom shoot pistol except in an emergency. DAO was popular with law enforcement coming from revolvers, but most such guns couldn't be cocked back to single action at all.

[@yetanother9127]

Call it DAM--Double Action Mostly :P

[@TheBitwise]

Geometry usually seems useless to most, but I love seeing the way these sorts of internal parts work with each other to ultimately do something pretty important.

[@ThatMetalGuy]

I recently found this channel and I gotta say, this is easily one of my favorite channels now. I love learning about all of these historical firearms. Here's to hoping I can afford an awesome piece of history one day. Thanks for the cool, historical, informative videos. You've earned yourself a new subscriber. Keep up the good work! That stuff being said, this gun has some pretty neat, and complicated, mechanics. The simple removable plate is pretty cool, giving a cross section type view of the internals.

[@Combaticus87]

Same here! Thanks Ian!

[@ThatMetalGuy]

Indeed!

[@drpsionic]

For some reason I have visions of a small spring flying across the room and getting lost in the carpet.

[@Tomah4wkVideos]

Thanks for taking it apart. Great to see how the mechanism works.

[@daviddonnelly2700]

Enjoyed this immensely. Complicated but fascinating. The various cocking mechanisms, trigger sear releases and safeties constitute quite interesting engineering IMO. Thank you Ian.

[@THEfamouspolka]

I am amazed at the enginenuity possessed by mechanical engineers/ firearm designers back when every step of the design ( drawings and performance maths), prototyping, and initial fabrication all being done by hand. No cad / 3d modeling, no engineering calc programs, no fancy Cnc machines. I love this channel! Thank you Ian for showcasing and bringing back into remembrance these elegant weapons from a more civilized age.

[@peterisaacs1344]

Seriously complex and beautifully constructed

[@RukaSubCh]

It's pretty epic to think that they made this 100 years ago and it's so complex that it's a wonder how they machined all those parts and what tools they used to make it so precisely without the benefit of CNC machines today.

[@44WarmocK77]

Nice design study in terms of the firing mechanism, but defnitely something you want to have in a regular full-scale production. As for the grip safety: you can easily see that it was added alter on, as no company with at least some amount of dignity would create a weapon with this excellent level of execution and then add a safety lever which has a huge gap in its back (which is an invitation for the safety to fail because of mud and dust getting in there and probably even blocking the entire firing mechanism).

[@daisyruin]

Excellent, just when you thought you've seen everything that's been tried as far as gun design, treated to something like this. Thank you.

[@Rusted1859]

man another great video! wish this channel got more attention. keep up the great work mate

[@Yahb015CatDog]

Your vids are great for my English12 and Algebra 3 classes when I'm finished with everything

[@insme]

Always love it when you take the guns apart like that. One of the major reasons why I love your channel. Keep this up man

[@SirEpifire]

Strangely, the internals remind me of what an old door mechanism looks like when disassembled. Fitting of the period I suppose.

[@ronmartin3755]

This gun may be old and one of the first auto pistols made but look at the high quality of this thing. This is a beautiful firearm. Extremely well made and I imagine once a person got used to firing it would be a pleasure to shoot. I would love to own this thing! Of course, I am looking at it in 2021 and this pistol was sold in 2016. Whoever has it must really like it. I imagine it cost several thousand dollars!!

[@JamesPawson]

Thoroughly interesting gun.

[@batonidaboni5029]

Vasilije "Vasa" Teodorović was Serbian who worked for Roth. His father Milan Teodorović worked in "Gaser" factory.

[@honorb4glory606]

Somewhat goofy looking, but extremely cool, and pure genious.

[@cariboupetepeterson3711]

Amazing workmanship on this one!

[@wallaroo1295]

What a beautiful machine...

[@Cirno.mp4]

To me, it looks like a mix between the M1911 (Ejection port), a Nambu (Charging handle), Luger P08 (Barrel), and the Walther P38 (Grip texture).

[@Hawk1966]

This thing is bloody brilliant. It's got features and functions that rival and in some ways surpasses modern weapons.

[@shonny61]

Cool and beautiful. Steampunky as hell! I could see myself adding that to my collection. If I had a bit more spare cash laying around.

[@matthayward7889]

Finished work, FW has a new video... life is good

[@AnimeSunglasses]

I love it! I loved the Roth-Sauer too. I wish I could go back in time and commission a large production run of pistols from Krnka and Theodorovic... in, say, 7.62 Mauser...

[@mattdickson2]

AnimeSunglasses or better yet get the designs and a engineer to make these guns in 9mm with removable box magazines of say idk 12 rounds? 30?

[@AnimeSunglasses]

Also a good idea! I just like antiques. And I could hoarde some of them and come back to the present day and sell them as an investment. And gift one to Ian, of course.

[@timallen6035]

I know that this is an older video, but the complicated functioning is fascinating to me.

[@justinbellio2285]

Holy crap a detachable internal magazine🤯🤯🤯

[@sjoormen1]

Theodorovich? Cool piece of history.

If i don't click on the thumbs up before Gun Jesus says "Hi guys..." in these videos I feel like I did something wrong...

[@VegasCyclingFreak]

Kinda like a swiss watch this one. It's one of the less fugly early automatic pistols I've seen thus far, and the finish on the gun is very nice too. Did Ian ever say what cartridge it used? I didn't catch it if he did.

[@HK_roller_delayed]

The auction sight lists it as 7.65 MM Mannlicher Auto. I was wondering myself.

[@VegasCyclingFreak]

H&Ks until the end of days! - Thanks I didn't think to look there

[@andreastiefenthaler3811]

a really wonderfully complicated gun. I love it.

[@michelletheado]

For what it's worth, our name was pronounced Theo-doro-vits

[@deadbreath666]

I found out about some of the weapons of the volkssturm, if you could do a video on them would be awesome and could shed some light on what most people don't know

[@gregmannos]

Always look forward to your videos! Great job..

[@kevincovert9881]

The silhouette of the gun reminds me of a Mars Automatic that's been slimmed down

[@palarious]

For some odd reason I feel that if you held the decocking lever immediately upon firing, that thing might be capable of automatic fire.

[@cudwieser3952]

niche as some things are, they at least provide an alternative. Not always a good or workable alternative, but an alternative all the same. As messy as the Roth Theo seems it actually comes across as quite a handy piece.

[@jamienaylor860]

love your video's, they are so educational & interesting anything to do with history i find really interesting... watching from the uk. keep up the good content! ✌

[@michelguevara151]

ingenius mechanism

[@DACFalloutRanger]

Pretty neat mechanics

[@happyhaunter_5546]

DA/SA with a decocker...if only it had removable mags, this would have been light years ahead. Bonus points for pic rail :P

[@WalkaCrookedLine]

Looks like some of the bits in the trigger group have very precise shapes, I kind of wonder how much wear they could take before the gun would cease to function properly. I'm also thinking the parts were probably hand fitted and not truly interchangeable.

[@H8Hater]

Good gun! Grip safety like on H&K P7.

[@therugburnz]

I hope you get to document more in the series of this interesting set of proto types. Are they all this complicated?

[@fancypantsstungrenades9221]

I have a ROTH SAUER That looks just like this with out the hammer all i know about it is from your old video.It is 1 of 15 left german police issued ones.i would love to know more.👍🏻

[@loicbazin1053]

love this pistol

[@thegoldencaulk2742]

I'm coming to the viewing day today. Gonna finger some gats, gonna write some shit down and hopefully win some nice guns. I wish I had the cash to go for that French C6.

[@RockIslandAuctionCompany]

See you soon.

[@Rusted1859]

Rock Island Auction Company ayyyy

[@talesofshatou]

with an internal magazine that's that simple to remove it's a wonder they didn't just detachable box magazine

[@aquadragon1]

Now thats one i never heard of.

[@andrewsuryali8540]

What kind of cartridge was this gun originally meant to use? Compared to the rest of the Roth/Krnka/Frommer family, that magazine looks especially large. Could this have been a long-recoil pistol that would have deserved the strength of the action?

[@recurvestickerdragon]

That is a slick, stylish gun. I would love to have a reproduction.

[@ashsole]

First time I have seen a firearm that looks better when you take off the side plate and grip.

[@crossbow1203]

Do you use cue cards? If not i have got to tell you you have a damn good memory to remember all the dates etc. that you use in your videos. I have never come away from one of your episodes with out learning something. Good Job!

[@kevinsullivan3448]

I was really hoping for a demonstration of emptying the magazine by having rounds flung all around the room...

[@milanstepanek4185]

Karel Krnka, Czech weapon designer. Even had an early prototype of self-loading rifle in 1891 (pictures in this article www.vhu.cz/exhibit/pokusna-samonabijeci-puska-krnka-hirtenberg/). Designed other stuff and worked with czech weapon manufacturers after the country gained indepence from Austro-Hungarian empire, such as the Brno factory. The way this gun is complicated yet beautiful definitely smells of Czechnology™ Also found this gem, there still is a registered patent by him for an internal rifle drum mag here patentimages.storage.googleapis.com/pages/US1008162-0.png

[@QuellicheilMarza]

So cool

[@QuantumCat76]

I love these ridiculously complicated guns. What caliber was it chambered for?

[@chapiit08]

Fascinating although overcomplicated design which probably shoot some anemic cartdrige that could have been chambered in a simple straight blowback pistol.

[@jordanfeeler]

Those are some complex internals.

[@dockmasterted]

I like the development of that pistol m,y friend!

[@Ass_of_Amalek]

roth is pronounced roht. a lot of old german spellings, including some surviving names, have 'th's, but they are never pronounced like english 'th', they are just a 't' with a pointless 'h', which is why the 'h' was eventually removed from standard spellings for most words other than names.

[@Ass_of_Amalek]

ian nailed "georg" though

[@TUBEMAN192]

The mother of all overly complicated fire control mechanisms... damn!

[@willybee3056]

Tuomas Raatikainen Rube Goldberg, ,, comes to mind....

[@gonzalez519]

Wow what an intricate design, is a long/short recoil system more accurate that that of a tilting barrel design in theory? Its hard to compare them since nowadays everything is tilt barrel type.

[@gabrieljohnson6116]

Hey, I am a competition shooter and I really enjoy your 2-gun videos. But I have a question. why do you use the ballester molina over any other pistol?

[@Markworth]

Such rifle mentality went into this design yet they stopped short. Over-engineered sighting solution would have been appropriate.

[@dcrypter87]

the guy who made this... was smart as F##K... =O amazed how over engineered this is =D

[@gonzalez519]

Looks a lot like the Frommer 1901

[@HappisakVideos]

Beautiful asthetic design.

[@josephd27]

very advanced mechanism for 1900

[@larslarsen8010]

When can i see some August Francotte Recolvers ?

[@wallmixer7274]

Schnitzel Space Magic

[@marcomartini9239]

Awesome

[@Sir_Leelord]

Hey ian, find some duckfoot pistols and review them please :)

[@The_ROKCER]

9:25 unfortunately the follower for the magazine ist on the pistole itself otherwise it would be a super special ops relopad friendly gun imagine that in the middel of the night under fire somewehere preferably ice cold where you have to where thick gloves: "cover me for 3-4 minutes i have to reload!" So no need for stripperclips in that case

[@johnmcclain4479]

trigger group by Rube Goldberg!

[@GermenWarfare]

Ian, if you can get your hands on one could you do a review on the WA2000? I don't see a lot of video's on them aside from content that is video game related.

[@chpdip94]

Ian commented beforehand that he'll do a video on it if he can find one. There's only like 20 WA2000'S out there.

[@EoineyMTX125]

Big fan Ian great videos.

[@fastmongrel]

I have taken 2 stroke motorcycle engines apart that had fewer moving parts.

[@GoredonTheDestroyer]

I think this pistol is an example why pistols - and firearms with internal magazines in general (shotguns and hunting rifles not withholding) have fallen largely out of favor.

[@dylanp.5161]

looks like a Frommer 1901 pistol

[@waltlars3687]

Rube Goldberg approved steam punk pistol

[@anulu7777]

+Forgotten Weapons how does this compare to the "Mars Automatic Pistol" ? I reminds me a bit of that because of the rotating bolt with the external handle to turn it. (Btw this looks a bit like a hybrid between a Frommer 1901 and a Steyr-Roth 1907 to me)

[@reluctant4116]

Good video ! I´m curious which of your guns still would run properly and which might probably blow up in front of your face. What would you say about this one ?

[@nickm9123]

What's the caliber?

[@nickm9123]

thanks

[@dmacmillion]

My goodness, those Europeans loved stuffing as many moving parts into a gun as was possible.

[@kurtbergh]

So, would this be the first ever pistol to have a decocker, although not DA/SA in the way we perceive it today?

[@enoughofyourkoicarp]

I'm hardly a firearms expert but the word that comes to mind here is over-engineered; I feel more like I'm looking inside a motorcycle engine than a gun. O.o

[@worldtraveler930]

Soooooo, what is the mechanism on the side plate do?

[@dan98996]

Was a 10 round capacity good in those days?

[@DualDesertEagle]

By the looks of it this is what evolved into the Roth Steyr 1907, is that correct?

[@stevejenkins9984]

Do you know anything about the cartridge this gun fired? Does anybody I'd be very interested to know. Most of these early guns were a proprietary cartridge of some sort.

[@vguyver2]

This must have been expensive. These features would be great for modern law enforcent. Just needs an external magazine.

[@furgy425]

Yes,please what cal is it?

[@morningstar93c]

what a ridiculously complex pistol

[@EpicPearKick]

Any christmas guns soon? :P