Round Trip Efficiency Test on LTO SCIB Battery, Lithium Titanate

This is my first look at some LTO batteries. LTO stands for Lithium Titanate. It's a very neat chemistry. My favorite feature is that it stands up well to cold weather. These cells can be used down to -30°C, WOW! That's cold. These are genuine Toshiba SCIB cells.
They also have 20,000 cycles rating. They are an expensive battery, which is why it's so exciting to get a chance to buy them on the used market at a low cost.
I tested the round trip efficiency of them and found them to be 98.9% efficient. Which is really good. I was able to pull more capacity from the cell then the sticker rating. Awesome!
These cells were provided to me for free from Battery Hookup. If you use my affiliate link it will help me out. You can also use the coupon code "davidpoz" for 10% off your order. www.batteryhookup.com/?rfsn=3333666.ca06e9
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[@magygrendel6931]

Thanks for awesome review. I personally think, that LTO technology is very promising, especially due features, which are unique only for this chemistry and impossible to achieve for any other chemistries. - extreme wide temperature abilities - very long lifetime (100,000 cycles with 40-45% DoD) - ability to stay unharmed even discharged very deep down, far below designed cut-off voltage. - round trip efficiency above 97% even after many thousands of cycles - ability to work in high C rate (up to 10C discharge) without issue (no degradation of efficiency, lifetime or capacity, also no dendrites creation). Actually I am starting my own business and one part of that will be working with this type of batteries and go deeper into, ideally to produce some own LTO batteries.

[@bigirb2002]

I use lto in my truck to power a 20000watt system in my truck. I love this battery. I also discharged to 2v on 4 cells and made a full recovery

[@OrionHCCC26]

I also use lto to power a 35kw system in my suv. They are amazing cells

[@patrickday4206]

I have a 6kw in my trailer can let it freeze and have solar panels to keep it charged with 5c charging rates and no issues with discharging to much zero. they are pretty much maintenance free had to install 2 battery balancers as on the top end they swing wild. But if you don't need the last ten percent one is enough

[@rashmiranjannayak3251]

Sassy and Perfect efficiency test . Thanks for sharing David.

[@gvmiketodd]

Very valuable to have a useable alternative to lithium iron phosphate. Thanks!

[@mark_osborne]

Just WOW - extremely efficient ! Awesome video

[@DavidPozEnergy]

Thanks Mark. I've now got to test my big LiFePO4 batteries for this.

[@MnrBugi]

Lto is the gold standard for Lithium. There's a French or Swiss company doing this (Leclanche they're called I believe) that I know of. They had home storage solutions for a while, but the offering disappeared somehow. Probably too expensive.

[@DJGive1]

Way to cover every corner of detail... very nice video

[@DavidPozEnergy]

Thank you. I try to be thorough. I'll be building some things with these in the future, so let me know if you think of anything else.

[@kyleschultz8350]

Just finished my 40ah / 14.8v install in my vehicle with these identical cells, absolutely love them, super versatile and you say there expensive but they came out to roughly $100 per pack...that's super cheap for LTo!

[@mbburry4759]

Does that include shipping? Where? Are there more if in USA, especially south east?

[@LithiumSolar]

I like that boost converter with a very wide range of voltages, it will come in hand with my own tests. I ordered one with your link ;)

[@DavidPozEnergy]

Cool. Thanks for using the link.

[@emailkanji]

@@DavidPozEnergy Any recommendations for a a boost converter that doesn't scream at close to 20k hertz? That thing hurt my ears.

[@dkannegi]

Running a 6S3P (Microvast 15 Ah cells) built 14.4VDC LTO battery built to order (China special - $500CAD) into a Group 31 battery box as my van's start battery. It came with a 100A BMS which I cut out and it has been great thus far down to - 25°C (this winter so far has been warmer than last year, hoping for a cold snap just to see how they are). LTOs are expensive, but in my case it comes out same as an equivalent 7S 40Ah PbAc racing battery.

[@vensonata]

David, take a look at Zenaji LTO battery pack. Totally unique design, like a four foot long tube rather than a cube. Beautifully done, by an Australian company. They also list 95% round trip and 22,000 cycles and in a 48 volt pack.

[@jakejacob9814]

L

[@Dutch_off_grid_homesteading]

heya nice to see you do your own test's

[@jiangsolar1497]

Awesome Review

[@igorkvachun3572]

Yes.👍 LTO SCIB

[@1kreature]

So, 3 years on and the energy density has not gone up. Currently we still sit at 1/3 to 1/5 of traditional Lithium Ion technology. Sad as capacity is the only think preventing widespread adoption here!

[@robertmeyer4744]

there is only a few LTO cells on the market today. The odd cell voltage makes them hard to use. inverters and solar charge controllers at bult around lead acid or LFP (LiFePO4) and NiFe 4 cells LFP 12.8V , 6 cells lead 12V ,10 cells NiFe 12V . there is a salt water battery but had limitations and very large . not sure of cycle life. as the demand for batteries increase we will see some interesting new types. The solid state battery is around the corner. a type if IC chip that stores power.

[@petski999]

I’ve tested the 10 cell ITO version of these sold by battery hookup and measured >99% efficiency. Another plus was that I also obtained slightly more watt hours than the labeled capacity. (444 Wh actual vs. 416 as labeled) not to shabby for a used battery. I also observed very tightly matched capacity and cell voltages as David noted. (Worst case was 5mV across all 20 cells)

[@DavidPozEnergy]

Awesome!

[@kamakazy59]

Would be great for off grid turbine setups !

[@thesurvivalist.]

I want to use these to replace my truck batteries! They are far better in the cold then lifepo4 batteries They sold out already!

[@BenMitro]

That's an amazing efficiency - some of the loss would be through the inverters and chargers too don't forget, so its actually better than the number you got David. The 20,000 cycle lifetime makes them worth 4 - 10 the price of LiFePO4's and 40 times the price of AGM's (make that 80 times since AGM's really only have 50% of available capacity) if they were new. I wonder why the original owners got rid of them given that cycle life? In two years you would need to start the diesels they came from every 30 to 60 minutes to use that cycle life and get bang for buck from these cells.

[@DavidPozEnergy]

I don't know why there were taken out of service. But the performance of them tells me they were used very little. I think it's an amazing deal. Hindsight is 20/20. If I knew these were coming I probably would have held off on my big LiFePO4 modules.

[@nkos6376]

is there a European "batteryhookup"? shipping and customs are deal breakers :(

[@kennethalmond8922]

Looks like one could use 5 of these and wire them as 2 sets of 20cells - to get 48v nominal - e.g. 20s2p per 5 modules. With such nice screws - it looks like a wire up would not be that bad - standard eye terminals on some wire :). Thanks for another great video!

[@DavidPozEnergy]

Yeah!

[@DavidPozEnergy]

I also love the screws. Makes things easy to work with.

[@jmac430]

You should wire 6s instead of 5s... the voltage drops quickly (settles quickly) on these things once pulled off the charger so 5s will typically be inadequate for your typical 12.8v lead acid replacement needs... Just something to keep in mind...

[@limitlesscoker6669]

One of the big things with these is the divide factor for the ferret.

[@limitlesscoker6669]

They make them in 3 V. 3 V are the way to go. I use them in the car audio SPL field

[@jamest.5001]

You can also use a 60 watt 120 v light bulb to charge capacitors also, to prevent damage,

[@showmequick2245]

JAMES! Since the 70's how?

[@SolarTechFL]

@@showmequick2245 in series

[@liumichael6492]

That's good. We produce LTO cells by ourselves, at present, we have 4.5ah, 10ah and 30ah.

[@adon8672]

@Liu Michael, what's your company's website?

[@sNEAKYnIGHTmUPPET]

it's funny to hear you say "For all of you overseas. You should really say everyone other than america" Hello from Canada btw

[@DavidPozEnergy]

You are right, I should. It just came out that way. Canadians (including half my family) seem to understand pounds/ounces, but not the oversees viewers. But I'm just trying to be helpful and courteous to my audience by including the metric numbers.

[@stalwart56k]

Update! My pallet of two BYD 24v 5 KWH batteries arrived yesterday 6 weeks late.

[@sestv4085]

is it safe to overdischarge the battery under 1,5v?

[@paintasylum8315]

Can you do a video on how you have your grid tied to your solar system? No one has really done a good video on that. Would be nice to see how you keep from back feeding the grid. Thanks!

[@leexgx]

The board is likely just a battery and temperature monitor as it doesn't seem to have enough circuitry to balance the battery

[@SuperJamster1]

Wow, imagine if you could use them in your car battery, it regularly gets -20 to -40 F here in N. Dakota. Wonder what the CCA equivalent would be?

[@jmac430]

The amp output on LTO is absolutely insane... you'd have no problem whatsoever starting just about any vehicle if configured in 6s (1p or 2p, obviously 2p for larger engines)

[@patrickday4206]

1p starts a duramax 40amp cells 5c rate

[@gta-6837]

Can these just be charged with just generator?

[@ryohondaronin]

How long does it take for you to charge that unit?

[@HwSystems]

I see that it can be used at -30°C but can it be charged at -30°C? I cannot find any confirmation online about the LTO chemistry regarding how it handle charge at sub zero temperature. I once read that all lithium chemistry cannot be charged below 0 because of irreversible lithium plating. It would be interesting to know at how many C it can be charged versus different subzero temperature like -10, -15, -20

[@jmd1218]

This si NOT a LiFePO4 chemistry. The chemistry is different!

[@fadajuiceful]

Is it normal for lithium batteries to discharge that fast? Because I experience the same thing with me Nissan leaf battery module when it reaches a certain volts

[@DavidPozEnergy]

Yes, it's normal. Check out a lithium "SOC to Voltage" curve. You will see the "knee" and the voltage falls off the cliff. Each type of lithium has this and if possible set your low voltage cutoff to stay out of this zone. I found this one: www.energy.gov/sites/prod/files/2015/01/f19/batteryLeaf5045.pdf Page 3 shows this. For Nissan Leaf batteries I would not go below 3.5 volts per cell.

[@teekay1785]

LTO is great battery hookup also sells the large round individual cells around $10 a cell in quantity with beefy terminals David don't leave us hanging ,wondering what the true capacity of the LiFEPO4 battery packs is.

[@DavidPozEnergy]

Hi tee kay, I have some fairly weak cells in the LiFePO4 modules. So I have to stop my capacity tests early. Usually around 28kwh. In the next couple weeks I plan to add some bigger wires to inter-connect the like cells. I'm hoping that gets me up over 30kwh. At first I was hoping just some extra cycles would bring the capacity back. And it did a little, but not enough. Frankly I'm dissapointed in my "hub" and am kicking myself. I'm still doing slow cycling up/down right now while I wait for my order of fuses and wire to come in.

[@greglatta6525]

there are 36 volt inverters out there this would work ok cause 42.4 is good voltage and 32 volts would be discharged my 36 volt inverter works great

[@GTrainRx7]

"Or 5kg, for those people who don't live in one of the only 3 remaining countries that use imperial.." I appreciate that you though to convert to "world units", not "freedom units" :D

[@jimthvac100]

I bought three of the used 8 cell LTO modules I figure I can put them all in series for a 24 Cell 48 Volt 1kw battery pack, I found a BMS that will work with 24 cells and also an active cell balancer that will work with these too. Every cell was tested at 2.21V. I was thinking of buying three more but looks like they are all sold out. 22s is ideal for an 48V LTO battery pack but my Inverter can handle it so I will just program the charge controller to charge the pack to 60V and program the BMS to allow the cells to go from 2.0 to 2.52V per cell. This will allow me to use all of the cells and not go to waste.

[@DavidPozEnergy]

Nice, that will make a good 48v pack.

[@ARepublicIfYouCanKeepIt]

• LTO Vnom = 2.4V (2.85Vmax/1.8Vmin) • 48Vnom/2.4Vnom=20S, not 24S! • 20S1P = 48Vnom/57Vmax/36Vmin • 24S1P would be 9.6V higher across the board! A 20S1P pack yields 960kWh/20Ah at a cost of $269.97 with four cells left over (assuming $99.99 per module, less 10% with David's affiliate link). Be absolutely certain that the BMS and balancer are either rated for LTO, or fully programmable.

[@jimthvac100]

@@ARepublicIfYouCanKeepIt Just do a search for LTO BMS 24S and you will see them. and if needed there are active balancers for LTO for a 24S pack as well. Regarding voltage having each cell between 2.2 and 2.5 -2.55 at 24S will allow the voltage feeding inverter between 52 and 60 61 Volts just fine. The inverter I will use can handle up to 64 volts. Using 5S per 12V or 20S per 48V system ends up having the voltage way to low. 22S would be ideal but since my inverter can handle the higher voltage of 24S at 2.5V per cell on a full charge why not. It's possible I could would consider a 22S but not 20S When the voltage starts dropping down on LTO cells there is little left that low. As long as the inverter can handle it I rather use use all 24 Cells. Especially when using these Modules. I would not be taking the voltage higher than 60 to 61 Volts. and I will still get most of the capacity out of them. By using all 24 Cells I am not wasting them either. If your inverter can't handle the higher voltage then drop a cell. Also there is hardly anything between 2.5 and 2.85V the voltage drops very quickly as soon as you put a load on them. So I could care less about trying to use power between 2.5 and 2.85 Look at the Discharge curve on these and you will understand. Most of the power is between 2.2 and 2.52

[@patrickday4206]

Battery balancers and charge limiters are all that is needed no bms

[@petski999]

David, how can I contact you directly concerning some serious problems I have discovered with the 4.5 kWh LiFePO4 packs? If you received any in the condition of the ones I received, sorry, but any standard BMS is not going to help. I’m compiling a report to send to them. I’d like to share that data with you as well.

[@DavidPozEnergy]

The best way to contact me is through facebook. facebook.com/DavidPozEnergy/

[@basshead100]

Hi Man, where we can get this module?

[@KillaBitz]

I was told that the round trip was more like %80. Not sure what to make of your results.

[@WimPrest]

Were you told that, or did you get to see a test that had the 80% result? We've all heard people state things as fact that they were told in passing without any additional research. Me? I'm going to believe the test I watched happen done by someone who just likes to figure stuff out.

[@ns15973]

To the best of my current understanding, the pack is rated 19Ah, in the video pulling ~9A is ~0.5C. LTO can be very efficient at this mild load. The 80% round trip efficiency is expected when at 10C discharge rate. A test at 190A would be interesting, as might be seen in the use case of an electric vehicle conversion. source: shop.gwl.eu/LTO-Tech/ Edited: to correct typo.

[@patrickday4206]

These are close to a super capacitor in ratings. I might be exaggerating a little but 99 percent efficient and 5c rating. Problems with them it above 90 percent they swing wildly on voltage and they are big and heavy for density other than that they are the best technology we have working right now

[@0hypnotoad0]

The potential of these batteries is being underutilized. These should be used to make electric boom lifts, scissor lifts and fork lifts. They seem to be extremely durable and long lived. Most of these machines need counter-weights built into them to avoid tipping over, so the added weight of the batteries could double as the counter-weights, the machines would be super efficient and would have decades of service life.

[@gregfriend7846]

Your 2.0V discharge cutoff is ok for most applications. Just be aware that if your in a cold environment and doing 1C rate or above that this is leaving about 20% of the capacity unused. I think that's the main reason that the manufacturer lists 1.5V instead. Indoors in climate control 2.0V is fine but in the cold it's nowhere near as steep of a dropoff at 2.0V.

[@dankarau2307]

LOL...already sold out!

[@offgridwanabe]

Highly engineered battery system. the cells may be worth saving and re configuring.

[@jamessawyer4625]

The head camera makes me sick. good content

[@alekss.7123]

On the label it says lithium-ion

[@JRP3]

Those batteries don't seem to be on their website. Sold out already?

[@DavidPozEnergy]

Not sure, I would have to check. They were under Module tab.

[@JRP3]

@@DavidPozEnergy Says "sold out" for the scib batteries.

[@lasersbee]

1:34... Canada is not over seas David...but I know what you meant.. ;-)

[@vincentrobinette1507]

That kind of cycle life? they can BE a little more expensive. Where I want them for stationary use, it doesn't matter, that they are a little heavier, and perhaps, a little more bulky. These just might be the thing for solar. I would probably use 80 cells, to be similar to 64 lithium Iron Phosphate cells, or 96 lead acid cells. (~192 volts-ish) I like being able to use these outside, because of their wider temperature range.

[@freetrailer4poor]

One thing Will Prowse said is they have high self discharge rate. I don't know if I believe it. But would you please test that too. Charge the battery, wait a week, and then test capacity. Then do a month if you want. Lithium titanate in an electric car is a 4 million mile battery (do the math).

[@DavidPozEnergy]

High self-discharge? No, I don't think that's right. In the beginning of the video you saw I had two modules. I checked every cell voltage of each module (all 16 cells). Then I proceeded with capacity testing on just one module. The other module I set on my floor (concrete). It's been sitting there un-touched for over two weeks. I just checked each cell voltage right now so I could respond to your comment. Each cell is at exactly the same voltage. Down to the mili-volt.

[@WimPrest]

Could you please share that Will Prowse link? I'd love to compare the testing methodologies and see how they each got to their results.

[@patrickday4206]

Will prowse review was garbage.

[@JRP3]

There's the battery upgrade solution for your electric snow blower.

[@DavidPozEnergy]

You read my mind.

[@JRP3]

@DIY Projects I think it would be a battery upgrade for the electric snowblower he already has.

[@twistidclowns]

Doit!!

[@Travellerwiz]

LOL.. Pretty sure there isn't a sea between Canada and the USA ;)

[@mytester6208]

Dont tell Trump!

[@NeilBlanchard]

I think the Mitsubishi i MiEV used this type of cells.

[@showmequick2245]

Neil Blanchard no they use Li-Ion just like fords infact very similar cells

[@jmd1218]

No it is not. I have an MiEV but I think it is not an LTO battery. Wish it was but I think hat was a rumor and i into fact. I could be wrong.

[@freetrailer4poor]

@@showmequick2245 Supposedly Honda Fit EV used them.

[@vensonata]

Yes, the Imiev's sold only in Japan used LTO... not elsewhere though.

[@DennisWintjes2]

Like #60. What is the cost? They are soldout.

[@ARepublicIfYouCanKeepIt]

$99.99 for one. $199.98 for what David was demonstrating (less the 10% discount for using David's affiliate link). For comparison, this is roughly equivalent to a 13S3P Li-ion pack. At a reasonable $1.95/cell (brand new, never used cells), the same pack capacity would run just $76.05. Of course, such a pack would be rated for 3,000 to 5,000 cycles vs. LTO's 20,000 cycles. Additionally, no charging below 32°F/0°C, and match the discharge current rating to the cells used. Hope that helps.

[@GermanOldMetall]

1. Servus aus Deutschland! ;-)

[@leedonald58]

What type of system would I need for a small government Military generator , 5, 000 t0 10, 000 watts , I am putting solar cells on a shed I bought from the Minanites , they even stoped me from building my tiny home , tell it was paid for , then 2 years latter they started to make there own , I was not happy at all , & they to not want give me a bill of sale , it came out of Denver Co . We had group of kids take a car & put the 1.5 Lithium batters together , I don’t remember the volts or the way it was made , before they closed the track they got the car to run close to 200 in 1/4 mile , my building is on a 5th wheel trailer that was a travel trailer that burned & has slide out , one of the gray water tanks , I have 2 black water tanks to put in . The trailer is 48 feet , & the building is 8’ X 16 , we are going to add to too the building , main deck is 40’ , & it 38’ to 40’ . It came with 2 big axle , but we are going to add 3 axle with a spread to carry the weight , it is being moved to Washington ,State , as I have to get to sea level , because of heath you are helping me a lot thank you , I had a gas generator , but was stolen . Thank You very much .

[@SimplifyingChaos]

Please give us a tour of your workshop. Don't bother to tidy up, just show us all your normal working day. :)

[@DavidPozEnergy]

LOL, it's a mess. And I've got 5 or 6 future projects piled on top of one another.

[@SimplifyingChaos]

Great, what a perfect time to do it.

[@davidabineri908]

I am not sure why the removed circuit board is so "Cool"???

[@DavidPozEnergy]

I don't know if it's something I can put my finger on. The idea that this board can connect all the cell voltages to a central computer? The tiny parts soldered on (I would need a magnifying glass). And the way the fuse is attached with beefy bars? Some team of engineers had to come up with the layout of all these components, make them fit on a board, while also grabbing the cell voltages. All that planning, preparation, tooling, and failures to make this end product that is so elegant. It blows me away. I think it's cool.

[@jamest.5001]

Can they be broken down into cells?

[@DavidPozEnergy]

I'm going to try this weekend. Don't know yet.

[@ARepublicIfYouCanKeepIt]

Definitely. You'll get eight cells as shown at t.ly/7J5bE from these packs.

[@ForwardGuidance]

What cool projects, something other than solar? Just watched a different review on same batteries, he said not good for solar and to know what you are getting into.

[@DavidPozEnergy]

Do you have any ideas for some cool projects?

[@ForwardGuidance]

@@DavidPozEnergy No, but I'm excited to see the ones you come up with since those sort of cells, I thought, were more for special case situations than run of the mill like we usually see. Thanks.

[@jamest.5001]

Yeah when 'filling' lithium batteries. You do not want it to run over!! Haha

[@DavidPozEnergy]

Yeah, I'm just a dude in his garage, not an engineer. I don't always use the correct lingo. Sorry about that.

[@ek9772]

They are currently doing some testing here: batterytestcentre.com.au My understanding is that some battery derating is necessary at temperatures above 35°C, but I do not think this will be part of the testing process. In spite of your excitement for cold weather, there is, also, some derating for cold weather. Take a look at the Zenaji warranty. It should provide you a better idea,

[@SkypowerwithKarl]

Kinda useless without a balance network.

[@tomstdenis]

"or 5 kilograms for you guys overseas" ... hey Jean-Guy get a load of this hosehead who hasn't heard of Canada eh