A failed attempt; Britain's search for an Automatic Rifle with firearms expert Jonathan Ferguson

[@hendriktonisson2915]

This is the first and only video on the internet about this rare British rifle.

[@mcintoshpc]

I doubt many other people besides Jonathan have access to them in the first place

[@mrmors1344]

give it time. forgotten weapons probably has a video that is waiting to be released.

[@BlokeontheRange]

Sees locking into the left sidewall. Not surprised in the slightest by reports of poor accuracy... 🙃

[@dracodis]

I, for one, love when you bring out multiple examples. It's always interesting to see examples that demonstrate secondary purposes, the evolution of a design, or personal customization next to a standard/common model.

[@PURPLECATDUDE7734]

It really gives one a greater appreciation for the SKS, AK-47, and RPD. The Soviets were much quicker to adopt a family of intermediate caliber automatic weapons compared to what appears to have been a more bumbling situation in the postwar west.

[@nehc_tnecniv]

Thanks a lot Rene Studler...

[@PURPLECATDUDE7734]

Studler did enough damage to western arms procurement that the Soviets ought to have given him a medal.

[@dbmail545]

I think that can all be blamed on the American military bureaucracy, that was the big dog after WWII and refused to consider anything but a full-power battle rifle cartridge. Of course, they shafted the rest of NATO when the M16 and its 5.56x45 cartridge was hastily adopted for the Vietnam War.

[@ktgiffin8147]

@@dbmail545 The US Army wanted an intermediate rifle cartridge, but Col. Rene Studler at the US Ordnance Board dug in his heels and refused to accept the concept. He kind of had a point when he argued that crew served weapons needed greater range and ability to penetrate than rifles, and in recent years, we've seen that he was right, even if the way he went about it was sneaky and underhanded; intermediate cartridges do leave a lot to be desired in machine guns, especially when used against vehicles and aircraft. At the end of the day, I think the problem was that for logistical simplicity, NATO wanted a single cartridge for rifles and light machine guns, but the roles those weapons fill are too disparate to be adequately served by a single cartridge.

[@studentaviator3756]

@88E3 Gunsmithing Services Do you think it would of been easier to adopt an intermediate rifle cartridge, find gpmgs and lmgs are too underpowered so create a full power cartridge for both. Than too adopt full power cartridge then find out its too powerful for a service rifle.

[@tHeWasTeDYouTh]

0:23 YES for a long time I have been asking for that rifle. I am so happy.

[@haydenbretton2990]

Jonathan & Royal Armouries, top of any firearm programs to watch. Ian a very close second. Well done Jonathan & Ian.

[@indigohammer5732]

Hi Johnathan, perhaps you could do a post on what an average day at The Royal Armouries is like. It can't all be looking suave and making KZbin shorts! I'm curious as to what your day is like. Thanks.

[@schore69]

good question! you get 1000 internet points... but spend them wisely

[@hipflask]

Great idea 👍

[@harapaki3412]

suave? creepy comment dude

[@quintonb9870]

This is a new one for me. I'm surprised Ian was beat to the punch so to speak. Great video, and great explanation of the operation.

[@commander31able60]

whenever I watch videos about obscure guns like this, I always picture a level in a polished, true-AAA first person shooter set in an alternate history where after a short cutscene you equip it and go "wow, what is that?"

[@firsteerr]

" i dont know what the P stands for " ....... " it was designed by Claude Perry " my Spidey senses are tingling

[@RVered]

"Prototype" is more likely. There was no need to add "Perry" since no other rifle had the designation BSA-28 (unlike the Mkb 42(H) and Mkb 42(W))

[@patrickvennard838]

Excellent video I am so glad that you can share parts of your book, which I think is well written and very informative on this channel.

[@kencampbell1750]

As soon as you said "Weapon of Choice" I slapped my forehead. Well played folks! Great to see this interesting concept up close.

[@graemesim40]

Excellent stuff, never knew these existed until now👍

[@indigohammer5732]

Rifle serial number "8", sold at auction for £4,200 in March 2013.

[@jamesfox6245]

Great content and perspective.

[@Ftanftangfnarrr]

I really enjoy Jonathan's videos. Really well presented - entertaining and informative.

[@karlyo6937]

This must have been very expensive. They have beautiful finish.

[@michaelmay5453]

I actually (legally as an antique but functional rifle) have one of those in my possession along with some other arms from the er. It was, for it's time a fairly good firearm in my opinion. I also have one the rare shotguns (8 gauge) they made.

[@Chiller01]

This job would be like having the world’s best firearms collection on someone else’s dime. Not only that, you wouldn’t have to hear your wife say, “What am I supposed to do with all these when you’re done?” I hope Jonathan’s contract includes an emeritus status allowing him access to the collection after retirement.

[@MrTangolizard]

Glad it’s not just my wife that says that

[@kolega4ever]

Well, I'm pretty sure even if Jonathan doesn't get emeritus status after retiring he will have access to the collection nevertheless. RA's collection is open for researchers and stuff upon request, so knowing people working there would make it even easier than just being a researcher

[@Einwetok]

That's very close to an M14 on the outside. I like the boxy stock.👌👌

[@alanrose4827]

Jungle carbine bayonet too. Pistol grip as per Meteor air rifle.

[@Williestyle-RobotechxMacross-x]

Thanks to Prof. Matthew Ford and Jonathan for this information. Great video! (:

[@Williestyle-RobotechxMacross-x]

and Major Hobart, too!

[@denismorgan9742]

I never understood why BSA never made a Besal into a Bullpup?

[@aethervvav1658]

It would be cool if you 3d printed the missing items on the weapons in red or something to give people a visual reference. Great videos thanks

[@ewencameron2528]

I had access to one of these a while back. The magazine is the most awkward thing I've ever encounter on a firearm. It managed to do a very good impersonation of clicking into place and then falling out. Once you managed to rock it into place properly it was fine but it was way too easy to do it incorrectly. Never had that problem with any other gun although it could have been a problem with that individual rifle {No. 8}..

[@0neDoomedSpaceMarine]

That must have been the one which was up for auction about 9 years back. The rifle looks nice, so it's a shame that it wasn't better put together.

[@Snivy2500]

I cannot express how excited I am for these videos to come out each week.

[@EnglishKiwi]

How weird, I just read the chapter that discusses this rifle in your book today!

[@Benny---]

Mechanically the action seems really similar to the Czech ZH29 rifle.

[@0neDoomedSpaceMarine]

I was thinking that. The ZH29 had ok precision, to my recollection, but the way the bolt locked to the side of the receiver apparently made it tend to shoot kind of to the side a little bit, which they tried accounting for with the sights.

[@iterationfackshet1990]

@@0neDoomedSpaceMarinetilting bolt guns sacrifice accuracy for simplicity, and that’s good and all when the bolt is locking vertically. When it locks horizontally it causes these accuracy issues to be amplified so you end up needing sights like you would see on a ZB-26 style of machine gun.

[@danscott3880]

You sir are correct. M1 pattern sling. I have a Re pro on my M1.

[@november_victor9693]

Man you have my dream job. So many awesome firearms.

[@franciscofranco4520]

Looks like a giant Mini-14 or the M-14's older brother.

[@sullivanrachael]

I wonder if the graduations on the rear sight are in MOA? Makes more sense for the sighting system to subtend a known value of change with a prototype, as the ballistics of the .280 cartridge might have not been fully settled upon at the time.

[@F1ghteR41]

5:30 So they took inspiration from M1, but completely ignored its quite advantageous locking system in favour of some sort of ZH-29-like arrangement, clearly outdated by that point, expensive and complicated. And not only that, but they failed to execute it properly, as illustrated by the out-of-battery detonation incident mentioned at about 17:38. 6:49 It seems like they didn't even bother to drill the aperture, and by the looks of it it would have been very small, uncharacteristically so for the British small arms of the day, which up to that point tended to have, in my humble opinion, probably the best sight arrangements in the world. Overall, the sight looks comically large for both its aperture and function, since the elevation range is very moderate for the cartridge being used. 7:18 550 yd is roughly 503 m, so it's reasonably round in both Imperial and metric, which, given the Anglo-French military alliance being established at that point, would be quite relevant. 9:02 So they haven't learnt from the German mistake with Kar.98k and its separate front sight protector, have they? 9:48 Putting a gas block at such an angle is an interesting idea for a M1-like gun, although I'm not sure whether it would be viable from a technological point of view. Then again, the whole system was overly complex from a manufacturing standpoint anyway. 15:36 Quite a high standard to hold a military rifle of that era to.

[@formisfunction1861]

Fascinating!

[@georgerobartes2008]

Many of the arms designers now in the UK were Polish including Vakrov or Wakrow at BSA . The 3 competition designs code named after snakes ( Cobra etc) for the 1957 trials were all designed and developed from Polish designs including a Polish Captain that changed his surname . The 280 British adopted by the British in 1951 proved to be a trials winner in 1957 and European nations adopted it as 7mm NATO made by FN , RUAG etc but was not acceptable by the all powerful US commission under Studler simply as the US didn't want a foreign cartridge . The FN did not beat the EM2 at the trials . FN simply made a 7 mm ( 280 Brit) and a version in .308 , whereas the EM2 could not be upgraded to fire the 308 which is not an intermediate cartridge and is almost as powerful as the 30-06 . The EM2 could fire full auto and single shot , was more accurate , reliable and better ballistics down range but Studler deemed it to be too flat shooting and may injure troops down range that were advancing . Basically any excuse to disqualify the best system at the trials . The 308 Win was chosen dubbed the 7.62 x 51 NATO and went into various rifles . In use the 308 was found impossible to control on full auto ( a requirement of the trials was that the rifle could be used on full auto which the 280 could be managed comfortably as a true intermediate round ) and as the M14 was now an SLR and quickly abandoned during the Vietnam war in favour of Eugene Stoners Armalite AR15 and the Dutch and Portuguese had adopted the AR10 ( also designed by Stoner) in the 7.62 NATO full on cartridge as an SLR . FN did supply all FALs in selective fire and also a HBar version as a LSW with bipod . All NATO countries had to follow the US adoption of the pipsqueak Remington varmint cartridge the 223 Rem now designated 5.56 NATO . The US now has now gone full circle and adopted a 7mm (6.8mm) cartridge some 60 years after the 7mm NATO designed by UK and joint developed with FN as a ballistically superior longer range round than any of the US offerings after it was dropped . Just think of the lives the adoption of the 7 mm NATO could have saved in the Middle East and Afghanistan !

[@motocross_cooper]

I think one important point about the “AUTOMATIC” labeling of firearms pre-WW2, Compared to our modern use of the terms “AUTOMATIC/ SEMI-AUTOMATIC” for firearms today. In pre-WW2 times, The AUTOMATIC typically referred to “AUTOMATIC LOADING”. The modern day use of Automatic, Typically refers to the Automatic release or operation of the Sear/ or FIRING mechanism.

[@mmclaurin8035]

Beautiful rifles

[@Lord.Kiltridge]

Not a fan of the FAL. I carried both the semi and full auto versions and liked them well enough. But they would have been much better in an intermediate round.

[@wallythewondercorncake8657]

So the FNC then?

[@WALTERBROADDUS]

Well vs. A .303, it is...

[@derekp2674]

Thanks Jonathan and team, that was really interesting to see. Whilst the design may not have worked all that well, it looks like those two rifles were very nicely built by skilled craftsmen at BSA. For those of us on Civvy Street, there must have been a time when BSA was the most popular make of smallbore target rifles in the UK. When I started smallbore target rifle shooting in the mid 1970s, BSAs of all marks were still widely used, but Anschütz rifles had also become very popular.

[@gangleweed]

It's all a matter of personal opinion and likes.........when I started full bore shooting in the mid 60's I had a P14 .303 that had been cut down to make it a rifle good for hunting but it still had the Parker Hale peep sights so hunting died a natural death for the original owner and my club was so impressed with my shooting skills with it that they recommended and bought the Lee Enfield no 4 mark 2 for me.........my best range was 600 yards and I shot a possible to win the Hammond trophy on the day......as a club we used to shoot against the Springbok and Alexander bay commandos........this was in Namibia in the mid 60's at the Oranjemund shooting range.

[@derekp2674]

@@gangleweed At AERE Harwell, we had three P14s and one No. 4 as club guns for Target Rifle events. All had been rebarrelled to fire 7.62x51. I never got to fire any of them at the Range but I did once borrow one of the P14s for some laboratory work.

[@dennispersson9466]

I have noticed a few comments referring to the side mounted sling, as being an M-1 Garrand, or M-1 Carbine, sling mount. From my experience, on the West side of 'The

[@SandrasSpicySpanishSalami]

At 3:15, The "Major Hobart" you said wrote for Guns Review about this rifle, was it Major General Sir Percy Hobart? Of "Hobart's Funnies" fame?

[@michaelamos4651]

Just what I was wondering. Don't think so though

[@alganhar1]

Very much doubt it. If he was going to shorten the rank he would have simply used General, not Major if it was a Major General.

[@SkunkapeProductions]

I used the L1A1 in the 80s and we found that adding a small bit of foil in the breech you could make it fire a full mag of 21 rounds in one squeeze of the trigger.

[@johnfisk811]

The trick of it was to stop it firing the full magazine.

[@blackcountryme]

I saw a bren gun mag in one once.. in a photo mind

[@schore69]

hey there... still wondering what that chunky looking 80's rifle to jonathans left side is.... ist big and chunky and has a carrying handle and some fal looking handguard... im gonna ask you again, dn again, and again, and again..

[@KNURKonesur]

Any chance to see a video about the VSS Vintores and/or AS VAL?

[@sim.frischh9781]

The good thing about failed attempts is you know what NOT to do. And many failed attempts at creating something lead to the creation something else in the process. You get experience out of each failure, just hopefully the price to pay is not too high.

[@darinfoat8410]

Maybe the P stands for "Perry"? The designer, I mean.

[@Torque_Mk1]

It reminds me of an SKS with a box mag.

[@classunknown]

Or a G41/G43 with an extended magazine 🤔

[@djcjr1x1]

Yes but so much more complex for no reason.🙄🙄

[@0neDoomedSpaceMarine]

5MOA in semi is pretty poor, 4MOA is what I would say is the minimum acceptable. That it opened up a LOT in full-auto doesn't help. Shame, because overall the rifle looks pretty nice and handy, something you'd feel confident in with a loaded magazine inserted and a bayonet on the end.

[@gljnjo]

Love the video and John wick shirt. Especially that you have rifle No1.

[@Max_Flashheart]

Birmingham Small Arms was the same BSA that made BSA motorcycles until 1973

[@blackcountryme]

Yep and an Indian businessman has revived the marque and was looking for a factory in Brum to make motorcycles again, but Birmingham council were hopeless

[@Max_Flashheart]

@@blackcountryme Thanks for that! That is interesting I didn't know anything about that.

[@Chiller01]

I love it when these things pop up in my recommendations and I’m , “This looks interesting I must have missed it.” The I find out I already liked it and commented on it 6 months ago. Yep getting old.

[@davidcolter]

Is there any chance that the sideways tilting locking action was influenced by the Soviet SG-43 Goryunov? Would examples of that have reached the UK at all?

[@Stevarooni]

There are no "purebred" firearms in the modern era, just lots of mutts.

[@hendriktonisson2915]

It's more likely that the 28P design was influenced by the sideways tilting Czech ZH-29 rifle as it is known that the British Army tested the ZH-29 in the 1930s. Also it's unlikely that the British had any Soviet SG-43s in their possession in 1948.

[@BatCaveOz]

Fun fact - The "P" in BSA 28P stands for "pew-pew" - Ian McCollum... (probably).

[@99Racker]

The sling appears to be a M1 CARBINE type...not GARAND. Thanks for the video.

[@AlexHalt100]

at @8:55 the only thing missing after that click is "noice"

[@ZandorClegane]

I love Weapon Peter Capaldi, Jonathan Ferguson!

[@cheesenoodles8316]

Excellent....

[@SimonUdd]

Do you have a Ljungman rifl or a Sjögren shotgun there somewhere

[@michaelm9211]

8:21 is the best definition I have ever heard for an assault rifle. “Intermediate cartridge and select fire.”

[@classunknown]

Can't tell if this is sarcasm but the definition seems to work, as anything bigger (except for 7.62 x 39 and a few others) are considered 'battle rifles' like the G3, FN FAL etc. Sorry im a bit drunk so can't tell the intent of this comment 😂

[@michaelm9211]

@@classunknown lol cheers 🍻 brother😎. I was serious though

[@jackv8195]

Anyone else hear the M1 ping at 6:40?

[@hendriktonisson2915]

Was the BSA 28P the only British designed non-bullpup select fire rifle designed after WW2?

[@davidcarr7436]

P for "prototype"?

[@wondersoftheremnants]

6:08 did he slammed his finger

[@paulspice4717]

Please show more firings

[@roygardiner2229]

Could the "P" in BSA28P denote the name of one of the designers, "Perry"?

[@MatthewBaileyBeAfraid]

While there IS such a thing as an Assault Rifle (and a Semi-Automatic CAN BE an “Assault Rifle”), it requires MORE THAN JUST the “Mid-power Cartridge.” This Rifle has three of the Features that are required for an Assault Rifle, but is missing at least one of the other two features: 1. Mid-power Cartridge. 2. Box Magazine/High-Capacity Magazine 3. Shrouded Barrel. Missing is the Inline Stock/Receiver/Bore. The other trait would be the Pistol-Grip. There are some other traits that define an “Assault Rifle,” where SOME demand a “Selectable Fire” in Semi-to-Fully Automatic feature. These come from the US DoD requests for procurement of an “Assault Rifle.”

[@dellawrence4323]

The Number 5 bayonet is a beast, the Fuzzy Wuzzies certainly wouldn't like that "up em".

[@maartenrijs3]

Yes, the sling is the standard U.S. M1 sling.

[@JustaGuy1250]

What i wouldn't do to be allowed in the Royal Armouries firearms collection for a day

[@achillebelanger9866]

America has Ian Gun Jesus. Britain has Jon the Gun Revealator.

[@TorquilBletchleySmythe]

Why, yes, I have decades of extensive experience with this particular rifle, and can confirm that indeed is a US M1 pattern sling, but it is 2" shorter, as US Military had more to eat than sawdust sausages and were physically larger than the typical post war Tommy.

[@BigDW9762]

I feel it looks a lot like the M14 or M1A.. Just without the sexy aesthetic of the M14.

[@stujo718]

👍. Thanks for keeping me going through the madness. Can’t help but think this will end up in a call of duty near you. 🧐😆

[@762cat]

British A-team gun

[@222welder]

Perhaps this is a bit of Occam's razor, but why not P for Perry? He was one of the designers, after all.

[@tomwinterfishing9065]

Must very frustrating being a developer for potential military contracts. I think I’d go all Bazil Fawlty if it was my job!😂

[@Steven-p4j]

It is a very handsome SLR, I must say.

[@nemisous83]

.280 British IS NOT and intermediate round its still a 7mm140gr bullet traveling at 2550fps with about 2000 ft lbs of energy, which puts it right in line with calibers like 6.5 Arisaka and 6.5 Carcano. To put this into context 7.62x39 and 8mm kurz are generally 123gr bullets traveling at 2250-2350fps which translates to around 1400-1500 ft lbs of energy.

[@ryanpeck3377]

Correct... The standard 7.62x51 is a 147-150gr bullet traveling at around 2800 fps. So the .280 is just slightly less than a “full power” cartridge

[@mrb9536]

P stands for prototype

[@Elemental-y4l]

"That's something that still have to go back and find out" So Jonathan is a time lord?

[@jponeill2151]

Actually reminds me of an M14 (visually)

[@nbenicewicz]

If I were the designer I would have put the front sight above the bayonet lug.

[@johnchettleburgh6055]

Would 'P' stand for 'Prototype'?

[@emantsrifemantsal9842]

You're technically a British version of ian McCollum.

[@mrcjspapa]

beautiful rifle's

[@malcolmtaylor518]

Never understood why it took so long for the UK to develop and field an automatic rifle. The UK was probably too picky, and obsessed with the bolt action. For full auto fire on the BSA, it would be interesting to see the group sizes of its contemporaries and rivals.

[@gangleweed]

I think they failed because the full mud inversion test failed any attempt they tried.

[@keithmoore5306]

well Jonathon it didn't have a rifle grenade sight to start with the doctrine of the day was to set the rifle at a 45 degree angle and adjust range by how far you lowered the grenade onto the launcher assembly! the farther down on the launcher the farther it went.

[@j.robertsergertson4513]

I thought the Boy Scouts of America (BSA) made cool guns back in the Day,but Brimingham Small Arms makes more sense !

[@MH-jt3lx]

Once they compacted the gun to control rate of fire it was over for the gun.

[@brandonmoisesblandonflores1483]

anyone knows the name of the gun?

[@PaulP999]

Had seen this rifle in my Ian "Ivan" Hogg book, with little detail. Found it such an attractive weapon and, being a motorcyclist, I'd want BSA to do well so it is sad that it didn't make the grade. I'm guessing with the whole NATO round skullduggery it would have met the same fate as the EM2 anyway..?

[@Nattleby]

Looks like A Federov and an M2 Carbine had a secret affair….

[@tomd3310]

Looks more like a SKS

[@Squeezer999]

reminds me more of a Ruger AC556 than an M1 Garand

[@aaronwilkinson8963]

Perhaps the P stands for Perry

[@barryhendry8348]

P for Pneumatic maybe?

[@Phil-ey6yh]

Very M1 carbine/ mini 14 vibes

[@DistrustfulAtom]

Is it just me or does anyone else hear the Garand en-bloc ping around 6:40

[@TN_hellbilly]

P might be "Prototype"

[@TylerMcL3more]

Tolen comment for the algorithm- good video! :)