There's something epic at the idea that the only way to win is to lure two great evils into going at each other, then screw them both over by blind siding them as they don't consider you worth thinking about.
@captcorajus2 жыл бұрын
I agree, that could be pretty cool. I just think its 'cooler' to fight him yourself after spending all that time building up to such a confrontation. ;)
@randallbaumgardt34242 жыл бұрын
My players love trying that and then swooping in to take out both great evils. Doesn't always work but always fun.
@marcbebee28042 жыл бұрын
I agree that’s the point and it sets up the characters to decide whether to cozy up to something so evil and vile but powerful to win or try the hopeless and vanity attempt to beat a being as powerful as Vecna. Here’s the thing: there should be beings that are beyond any player to defeat. Otherwise you get into ridiculous and ultimately boring play - imagine supermen without kryptonite. It spoils characters and they should feel very small even when they might be quite powerful. At the end of the day, RPG is about storytelling. So “railroading” at times if used well is just as valid a method of storytelling as is sandboxing (which can contribute it’s own “huh, how does that make sense?” Moments for a DM.
@rynowatcher2 жыл бұрын
We died before the end, but that was pretty much par for the course for demigods in that Era of play. You almost never got a chance to kill the cosmic evil; we would have counted that a win I'd we could trick two evil guys into killing each other.
@randallbaumgardt34242 жыл бұрын
@@rynowatcher that's true we did do a lot of heroic sacrifice in that Era. Alot of time that really was the best outcome not to mention totally cool.
@MarkLewis...2 жыл бұрын
I thought you weren't making videos any more??? Glad you are! Got some binge watching do...
@Bluecho42 жыл бұрын
As I commented on DM It All's review of Vecna Lives!, it's a module that has a lot of material that could make for much more interesting scenarios than what we got.
@captcorajus2 жыл бұрын
Yep, that's my assessment.
@sylvnfox2 жыл бұрын
for the prolog as I was passing out the cicle of eight sheets I flat out told my players that this is a short scripted pre credit prolog to the story at large and is intended to forshadow things to come. they shrugged and said okay and when the fit hit the shan they were shocked surprised and one said "oh.. this is bad..." idk I honestly liked it just tell the players that this is unrelated to their characters directly. besides the players would know they are playing a published modual, they are handed the character sheets of some of the most powerful NPC's in the setting. and asuming that these players have been with the DM for awile they wouldnt blame the DM and figure it is part of the adventure. and if not then well the problem at that point is not the DM or the module.
@captcorajus2 жыл бұрын
Fair. I just don't introduce situation where no matter what the players do they can't affect the outcome. Note, that's not the same as 'winning', but if what happens is 'foregone' then I don't see any reason to play it out, roll dice like it matters, etc. Seems rather pointless to me, but that's my DM style. Others might play things differently. IMHO, its just a good way to play.. ever.
@sylvnfox2 жыл бұрын
something else that can be done is skip the prolog and tell the players that the circle has vanished and play starting with ch1 BUT give the players a hook leading them to the cracked open tomb and the dead circle THEN tell the players, well... lets see how this happened" as you pass out the character sheets. so make it a flashback
@andrewtomlinson5237 Жыл бұрын
I do that sort of thing regularly. And it works. One or two shots with pre generated characters that act like a "cut scene" to a campaign. It also allows you as a DM to have a completely railroaded session where it doesn't matter if the characters are scripted to die. I did one recently where the pre gen characters were all scripted to die in specific locations on the map. It was only when the final one died, that they realised that if they turned the map 90 degress, knocked down a few walls, scattered a load of debris around the place and have it overgrown with vines and weeds... it was exactly like the ruins their PCs had explored two weeks earlier, and that they had just played out how the Castle had fallen 200 years before, and what the skeletal remains they found had been doing prior to their deaths. They loved it. So don't let anyone tell you that "Railroading is BAD!! FULL STOP" Like so many expert DMs on KZbin issue as some sort of Commandment." Gives the players a change of pace, and gives them a sense of where they fit into the campaign as an overall story. I think a lot of modern players would struggle with the way AD&D didn't conform to the "Everything must be about Player Agency!" notion. I'm still not sure how most of them cope with any Published Adventure, "How does any of THIS, help ME do MY backstory Vengeance Mission to kill the Bandit/Orc/Wizard/Dragon who murdered my family/tribe/teacher/lover???"
@mrp8171 Жыл бұрын
Fall-From-Grace: Morte, what are you? Morte: Me? Im head of Vecna.
@enoa42 жыл бұрын
I was not familiar with this module, or much of the lore of vecna. Thanks for the great review. The length and detail were greatly appreciated. Happy Gaming Captain!
@captcorajus2 жыл бұрын
Thanks! Glad you enjoyed!
@jamesnell19992 жыл бұрын
This your best work yet, Captain. I learned stuff about Greyhawk that I didn't know, and some of it is is immediate useful. I'm going to have to watch it a third time, this time taking a few notes to follow up on. I also enjoyed finding there is something crosses your line of acceptability: blind railroading. I'm all with you there. lol.
@captcorajus2 жыл бұрын
Thanks! Any scenario that makes it so no matter what the PCs do they can't effect the outcome is piss poor scenario design. I stand by that statement. lol
@jamesnell19992 жыл бұрын
@@captcorajus Come to think of it, That kind of thing was "novel" in 1979-80. Few liked it much then. But in order for there to be good D&D, there must be bad D&D.
@XX-sp3tt2 жыл бұрын
29:16 The idea I think would've been that Vecna couldn't even comprehend the idea of his obedient pawn Kas turning on him. Also, it feels like a betrayal of the original lore to say "Oh wait that didn't happen."
@captcorajus2 жыл бұрын
Well, its the module that said the sword doesn't work against Vecna, not me, but I can understand the logic. Vecna is an evil genius. Seems perfectly reasonable to me that he would have built in a failsafe.
@jasonjacobson11572 жыл бұрын
That's exactly the point. Vecna was not a Greyhawk setting character at all in the original lore. He was a character in Brian Blume's D&D campaign. This module not only shoehorns Vecna into Greyhawk & concocts never-intended setting lore, it changes the membership of the Council of Eight. The original Co8 was entirely comprised of Gygax's characters. It's no accident that the module misrepresents Gygax's setting & characters & kills off his Co8 at the beginning. TSR at the time had open contempt for the person who founded the hobby it was milking. Look at the other Greyhawk material they were producing post-Gygax: Puppets, Gargoyles, Child's Play, Castle Greyhawk. It's all garbage. Kwalish originated in Tim Kask's D&D campaign at college & got borrowed into Blume's campaign. Post-Gygax TSR shoehorned him into Greyhawk, too. TSR at the time had copyright on settings and characters it knew nothing about. Hasbro has the same issue today. Dave Cook wrote great D&D material, but this module wasn't his best work. Not by a long shot.
@XX-sp3tt2 жыл бұрын
The point is the player characters are experiencing a memory, a vision, something that has already happened, so it being railroaded is JUSTIFIED. Hammer home that it is a vision. So the PCs understand what they're experiencing is a first-person message, not an event as it happens.
@captcorajus2 жыл бұрын
I don't have a problem with the vision. I have a problem with them playing characters that are to be killed in game, and no action they take can stop it. I don't feel there's ever a justification for that sort of heavy handed play.
@nad39362 жыл бұрын
Totally agree, XX. I have no problem whatsoever with the beginning and the flashback.
@XX-sp3tt2 жыл бұрын
@@captcorajus I've actually seen it used rather cleverly.
@kernowpolski2 жыл бұрын
Thanks for this. I DM'd an evil campaign in the 80s 90s where the group set themselves the quest of going for the Hand of Vecna and the Sword of Kas. I hid the sword in a Gnome lair and I found it a bizarre co-incidence that this module did the same. They managed the get the Hand which was guarded in a high mountain fortress guarded by Silver Dragons and much else. When some years later I bought this module I found it very disappointing and the giant eye and hand creatures utterly laughable! Still the concept of Vecna brought us a lot of fun and amusement over those years.
@captcorajus2 жыл бұрын
The giant eye and hand I think can be made horrifying if presented correctly. But you're right, its rather silly.
@kernowpolski2 жыл бұрын
@@captcorajus I think it was the picture of them bending over a table with other acolytes of Vecna that sparked me. Anyway thanks so much for your reviews, history and insights I relaunched my Campaign with new groups over lock-down after my daughter and her friends wanted to play. We did my 1e with some rule adjustments version rather than 5e so it is great to get your insight into the old modules. I am currently adapting one of the classics which really means just gutting it except for the map and some of the descriptions traps - all great fun!
@richmcgee4342 жыл бұрын
Y'know, I'd forgotten about the peg leg thing with Gimpy McDeadguy's disguise. My headcannon now insists that there's a heretofore-unknown "Leg of Vecna" artifact out there somewhere. Its powers clearly need to include powerful transportation magic, but the user can only use them or move on foot by hopping on one leg (Dex checks, anyone?) like an unusually demented jiangshi.
@TallDude732 жыл бұрын
Great review, thank you. I'll look forward to the Treasure Hunt review - I dm'ed it, so I am curious as to your take on it.
@hawkeyepearce10662 жыл бұрын
Another great review, and a very timely one! I agree that this module can certainly be divisive, but taken as a product of its time, and given its horror themed aspirations, it has its strengths. I'm speaking as a DM who 'inadvertently' ran a "circle of eight" scenario during a Keep on the Borderlands campaign. As part of a side mission within the campaign, the characters encountered a temple which entrapped them in a "vision" of the possible destruction of Castellan Keep. The aim was to provide a "cut-scene" which would impress upon them the gravity of failure. What I didn't foresee was the possibility that the players wouldn't realise that they were witnessing an illusion, and would battle to save the keep, even as they saw their favourite NPCs cut down before them! As the game was being run through VTT, I was able to use text chat to inform characters (as they "died" within the vision) that they could free their companions from the illusion, as the session progressed. By the end of the session all of the characters had been freed from the vision, but the players were aware of the gravity of the situation before them, and the stakes involved should they fail. When it comes to "undefeatable" enemies, I'm fine with that as a DM, so long as the players know that not every encounter is presented for the characters to "win", and that sometimes survival is as good as winning.
@artvandelee27922 жыл бұрын
I find most AD&D modules great for ideas and for background structure. However, I rarely run them as written for my campaigns. With a little modification to suit my player’s they can be outstanding. Thanks Cap for these reviews which help me know what part of the module to change or improve. 😀👍
@Satori20462 жыл бұрын
Epic review. I'm definetly gonna buy the POD and use it as an inspiration for my own campaign. It will be epic ! :)
@randallbaumgardt34242 жыл бұрын
Have you considered a review of the occasionally flawed (that finally oof) but awesome Desert of Desolation.
@captcorajus2 жыл бұрын
Yeah, I don't have all the modules in the series, and I sort of dread starting a review of that without doing the entire thing.
@randallbaumgardt34242 жыл бұрын
@@captcorajus totally understandable. Thank you for all your great videos. They bring back so many great memories.
@sgtscot6582 жыл бұрын
I am betting this is the module Eddie Munson ran in episode 1 season 4 of Stranger Things.
@captcorajus2 жыл бұрын
Seems unlikely as Season 4 takes place in 1988, and this was released in 1990, but he might have been running his own version! lol
@joshjames5822 жыл бұрын
@@captcorajus Yeah I interpret the "Vecna Lives!" comment by Eddie as a tongue in cheek easter egg referencing this, as it would be anachronistic for it to exist yet.
@postalkisuke2 жыл бұрын
@@captcorajus 1986
@drewwill64972 жыл бұрын
A fair assessment with excellent suggestions for improving the gaming experience. Really liked the references to other source material for Greyhawk. Well done!
@captcorajus2 жыл бұрын
Glad you enjoyed it!
@laurelhill35052 жыл бұрын
I played this back when it first came out, and absolutely loved it. But then, I was a forever DM at the time, and you could have run me through a random dungeon generator and I would have loved it! EDIT: I loved the opening. I remember being completely shocked and amazed by how it went.
@captcorajus2 жыл бұрын
Understandable!
@captcorajus2 жыл бұрын
I was curious about how it went for people who played this out as written. Thanks!
@laurelhill35052 жыл бұрын
@@captcorajus the ending was different, we didn't get Iuz. In fact, I had no clue Iuz was involved until you mentioned him. My paladin actually picked up Vecna and jumped through the portal with him, ending the threat. Other than the ending, it was pretty much straight.
@captcorajus2 жыл бұрын
@@laurelhill3505 Now THAT'S what I'm talking about. Epic! Did your paladin survive or what it a sacrifice for the greater good?
@laurelhill35052 жыл бұрын
@@captcorajus the DM made the gods resurrect him, which I really didn't like. I wanted it to be the grand sacrifice. Kind of spoiled the ending for me. But, like I said, I got to PLAY! Was like manna from heaven.
@originaluddite2 жыл бұрын
Damn but the names of persons and places in Greyhawk are a mouthful.
@captcorajus2 жыл бұрын
These are true words. lol
@mattinthehat32 жыл бұрын
As always great and very informative video. You nailed everything wrong and right with this module/adventure. I bought this adventure when it was released and when I read that opening I was shocked. Kill off the entirety of the circle of 8 without any chance of them getting in a few good attacks? Lame and sad. I would and will be taking your advice on how to run this adventure. Originally, it's terrible, your suggestions, brilliant.
@josephskiles2 жыл бұрын
The hand was also featured in the 2nd ed DMG under the section on artifacts. The lore in it's entry really inspired me in my fledgling years!
@toddpickens2 жыл бұрын
fantastic review and breakdown! I have a copy of this and have been trying to figure out how to make it work into an existing lower level campaign
@captcorajus2 жыл бұрын
Glad it was helpful! I would start sprinkling in various elements. An encounter with the Cult, introduce some of the NPCs from the module... Circle of 8, their henchmen, Mordenkainen, and some of the locals, especially the City of Greyhawk, and you've got a solid foundation for a campaign.
@TheGeekDaddy9292 жыл бұрын
Can’t wait to watch this later!
@austinhadley60862 жыл бұрын
Thanks for posting, I'm a big fan of the story told in this trilogy, even if it's implementation is sometimes questionable. Truly epic fantasy stuff going on here
@captcorajus2 жыл бұрын
Yeah, I like a lot of the elements here, as I said, I just do not like the opening or the railroady nature of a lot of it.
@rynowatcher2 жыл бұрын
Having played it before, the opening worked great. Killing the circle of 8 in the beginning did make us take Vecna (we did not know if was not Vecna himself till much later) more seriously. I would leave that, personally. Also let's players cut loose with some high level magic users and you genenerally only get to do that a few times with becmi/ad&d.
@randallbaumgardt34242 жыл бұрын
As a player I got to start this adventure when it first came out. Did not go well. The opening did not sit that well with our group. Then after the tavern brawl with hand head and eye guy the Dm called it quits. Again Jesse so sorry it wasn't you you did great.
@EdvandoFilho2 жыл бұрын
What is the problem with the Tavern Brawl? Seems pretty straight forward combat with a cult trying to stop the players.
@randallbaumgardt34242 жыл бұрын
@@EdvandoFilho honestly we were not being very good players We were feeling a little salty about the odd opening (believing that we would be playing the circle of 8 the whole adventure) so when the cult attacked we out of character made WAY to much fun of the hand and eye dudes. Really bad behavior and hurt the DMs feelings. We begged for a second chance and he came up with a brilliant Star Frontier game.
@jjr6929 Жыл бұрын
Looks to be much more useful as a campaign addition and resource ie, insert the Vecna worshiping priests in between the existing characters and the "module".... I'd hack the crap out of the module to fit an existing campaign.....the vecna priests would make a decent buffer. And having multiple bad guys around can always work.
@captcorajus Жыл бұрын
Yeah, that's pretty much my take on it as well!
@agemmemnon1002 жыл бұрын
Wow, a five for presentation. That's harsh but understandable.
@mattcunnington19722 жыл бұрын
Thanks
@michaelstronghold35502 жыл бұрын
Really enjoyed this. Thank you.
@NegatveSpace2 жыл бұрын
I'm not sure I'd define what you call railroading here as such or it's possible that I feel like being a devil's advocate. Players trust I think should be a lot more important here. If they get run over by a boss then it probably means that they weren't able to defeat it yet. How would this be much different than if the players had found out where a boss is early on in a campaign and went there early? It seems to me that this is somewhat like that except the module gives an alternative to the boss killing their characters outright. Perhaps maybe another critique of the module could be that there was no other way in the module to finding these things out other than confronting the boss and something seemingly bad happening to them.
@captcorajus2 жыл бұрын
When the situation results in a pre determined outcome regardless of what the PCs do that sort of the very definition of railroad, but i get what you're saying.
@midnightgreen83192 жыл бұрын
Fantastic video!
@geoffreyperrin43472 жыл бұрын
I wondering if the opening could be an interesting cut scene with a dramatic reading
@captcorajus2 жыл бұрын
Its an idea, though for me, I'm not a fan of overlong readings.
@johnnyo35352 жыл бұрын
Well done my liege.
@arturwagnerjr.66692 жыл бұрын
Wow, Great Review!!! The problem with most adventures in the second edition era: a module to read not to play. Unfortunately this does not present a memorable place to meet Vecna and her cult. I could to throw all this fluff in a Dungeon, presenting a Background and go to the entrance door... but then all the work would be mine. How about a review on the second edition adventures that are based on locations rather than plots and fluffs?
@captcorajus2 жыл бұрын
I'm going to review City of Greyhawk here shortly to be sure. I love the boxed sets, but the early 2E adventures were very broken as you say. Very text dense, with little in the way of playability. This review seemed 'timely' given the interest in Vecna (forgive me for playing to the youtube algorithm on the rare time it actually hits on subject matter I actually cover. lol)
@arturwagnerjr.66692 жыл бұрын
@@captcorajus I really liked this review and understand the reasons. I Haded no plans to introduce my kids into D&D before their 12, because I have a group of 10 regular players and haved no rush. But my oldest daughter start to work her english (we are southern brazilians) and are press me to run D&D the old school way (with psionic rules) for her and her friends because Vecna Modules (and Eleven). Keep going and bring the others two.
@trioofone89112 жыл бұрын
Great video, as usual. FYI, the word 'scythe' is usually pronounced with a silent 'C'
@captcorajus2 жыл бұрын
Thanks. I've pronounced it that way for 55 years, seems unlikely that I'll alter my pronunciation.
@azcoder2 жыл бұрын
@@captcorajus Wow I had to look it up. I've been pronouncing it "wrong" since I got AD&D back in the day. It's funny because when watching videos like this, I noticed how lore-specific names are sometimes pronounced different. Like I tend to say Kas with a z sound, don't know why. But I like that sort of thing because there will be dialects within the game world too. And I pronounced Iuz differently. Good stuff!
@captcorajus2 жыл бұрын
@@azcoder I've seen several pronunciations for 'Iuz' over the years, but this IS Gary Gygax we're talking about here. "Eye-Ooze" just seems like his sort of schtick. AND kind of appropriate for a chaotic evil demi-god. lol
@azcoder2 жыл бұрын
@@captcorajus I like it!
@mikefett59897 ай бұрын
As a lover of all settings, how is this the first time I've heard Greyhawk / Waterdeep and Verbobonc / Neverwinter?
@leorblumenthal52392 жыл бұрын
I feel that Vecna Lives is emblematic of problems with TSR in the 1990's. Many modules of this era rely on either railroading or events that occur "off scene" for the storytelling to work. This leads to less satisfying gameplay, and requires the DM to either follow the railroad plot or do a lot of work to make the module playable. This wasn't a problem with earlier modules because they were usually site based rather than heavy on plot. Later on, WotC and other third-party publishers worked out how to have compelling plots while allowing the players agency in their game, but in 1990 these tricks hadn't been learned yet.
@Darkwintre5 ай бұрын
Picked up a copy of this! Actually hope to run a lower level version once I work out the kinks!
@shallendor2 жыл бұрын
This was a fun module, not a great module, but fun!
@rooksgate55742 жыл бұрын
Thank you for brutalizing a module that deserves it. I have and have read Vecna Lives!. I considerer one of the worst modules ever written - and a second set of eyes just confirming that I hadn't missed anything is great to have.
@captcorajus2 жыл бұрын
Lol.. thanks! Its rare that I pull out the 5 rating, but there's enough in this module that one might use as a resource that I considered it worth doing a review on. If someone buys it off this review they know exactly what they are getting.
@rooksgate55742 жыл бұрын
@@captcorajus This is the only Vecna module I have. Do you know are the other ones tied to this module? Die Vecna die for example?
@richmcgee4342 жыл бұрын
RPG net has a lengthy review of this dog of an adventure from way back in 1999. It keeps a running tally of how many times NPCs or PCs need to be phenomenally stupid for the plot to work. To put it mildly, the reviewer there liked it even less than you did. Deservedly known as one of the worst TSR adventures ever made.
@sanshinobi36643 ай бұрын
*Quick question:* if eight umpteenth-level wizards stood a klansman's chance in Harlem against what is essentially a zombie with extra spell slots, then _what in Avernus are some farmboys supposed to about the real thing?!_
@NoName-hl8wb2 жыл бұрын
Yo,when I was watching Stranger Things I knew I hear the name Vecna before
@boris23422 жыл бұрын
Wait... what about Vecna's teeth ??? they are mentioned in the D&D books too
@richmcgee4342 жыл бұрын
Vecna's Teeth are part of his cult, specifically the branch responsible for crafting magic items. They wouldn't really be on the front line fighting anyone under normal circumstances.
@mexicanshinji16402 жыл бұрын
was it Stranger Things that inspired you to do this video?
@captcorajus2 жыл бұрын
Well, yes and no. I had it on the 'to do' list, but, of course, its always beneficial to release things that are timely. ;)
@jiminverness2 жыл бұрын
Interesting that you pronounce Kas as "cuss or kahss."
@sunsin15922 жыл бұрын
Just remember this being forgettable. I got a free pdf of it somewhere, read it, and recycled it.
@alanrickett25372 жыл бұрын
I played one session of this modula with a new group, dm made us roll characters for the first part not use cycle of eight we spent 2 hours creating the characters I had a cross class character which was for fun gaming not power gaming and I fully informed the DM of the rules that need to be bent to allow the character allowable he was fine with this , durring the first session he play up the threat and scare very high which made my character nervous so he was careful about what he did any way DM sprung the kill everyone one and escape and said we would start next session with character creation, most of the party were complaining about this but I was asking how he escaped as all the passwalls had timed out. Dm didn't have an answer. So the other players piled on and got him to agree if they could keep the characters and V could escape and we left before the next session DM decide my character was not legal and so I either need to one class which would have put me at half the party power or play a npc he had created , walked from the game instantly, everyone else did over the next 3 weeks.
@HowtoRPG2 жыл бұрын
Thanks.
@jasonjacobson11572 жыл бұрын
@captcorajus love your vids & the way you promote D&D. I think you were far too kind this time. I could write many pages on the subject, but I'll just say that this module is a monument to the ignorance & disrespect of TSR at the time it was published. There are further issues with the module you didn't mention. It also deserves mention that Hasbro continues to slander the module's creators & consumers as racist & sexist in the product's description on DriveThruRPG.
@MizakiFelix2 жыл бұрын
The prologue is not bad, and as long as there’s open communication between the game master and the players your credibility or anything else should not be damaged lol
@captcorajus2 жыл бұрын
Nadda, nope, nah. If the PCs can have no effect on the outcome, why are you even playing it out??? What are the dice there for? Sorry. Have fun how you like, but for a commercial module release? It's utter nonsense and piss poor scenario design.
@MizakiFelix2 жыл бұрын
@@captcorajus because during this prologue they are not supposed to, it is simply an introduction they get to be a part of it as long as you look at it that way everything is fine :-) Also, there is nothing wrong with encounters where the players should not and cannot win lol, learning to flee is part of being a good gamer as well
@captcorajus2 жыл бұрын
@@MizakiFelix Agree to disagree.
@MizakiFelix2 жыл бұрын
@@captcorajus that we can do good sir :-)
@makinglovecraft73622 жыл бұрын
At 22:47, you pronounce scythe as 'sky-th'? I've never heard it said that way before, is that how it's said where you're from?
@flammableghost2 жыл бұрын
my beef with the Vecna trilogy is how it breaks Ravenloft lore
@captcorajus2 жыл бұрын
Yeah, I've heard that some have a problem with the fact Vecna was able to escape from the 'powers that be'.
@cthulhupthagn57712 жыл бұрын
@@captcorajus by the time that happened, ravenloft lore was already falling apart. for example, there was a multi-adventure campaign Arc that centered around a z a l i n discovering a way to break free, override his curse preventing him from learning new technology or spells. I bought the set because the last adventure was a box set that included rules for playing Undead characters and for converting a live character into an undead equivalent. something very unusual for second edition but common now. they also had Lord s o t h return to dragonlance because Weiss and Hickman were pretty upset about him being dumped into ravenloft. to the extent of having a novel commission that had him being returned because he basically accepts his fate, so the mysterious Powers release him. perhaps fitting with the character, but it also broke ravenloft lore. there was also something about a conjunction story arc, and after the a z a l i n Adventure modules ravenloft was completely altered in terms of its layout. now, to be fair I don't really know the specific timeline for all of the things that I've rattled off but to my recollection they all happen around the same time so my guess is there was some kind of frustration with how Raven Loft was becoming a bucket for all of the big baddies from all the settings. this was also around the time when the very concept of ravenloft was changing in my opinion. it was originally envisioned as a place to put the most powerful players. to give them a challenge when they had reached a point where nothing could challenge them based on level and equipment. it was an entire setting that was predicated on being top-tier difficulty level. some spells didn't work, clerical Powers were muted, good aligned characters were weakened and evil aligned were strengthened. and the Lord of each domain was being punished but also was essentially a God in its own realm. I think the biggest problem wasn't that it broke the lore by letting him out but rather the lore was being broken by people who weren't, essentially, respecting the authority of those maintaining ravenloft. not to say that anyone was right or wrong in it, but you see the same thing in modern comics. decades ago you had editors that worked together and made sure that what happened in one story didn't invalidate another one, but these days there's little attempt at maintaining continuity. the same thing was happening here, and that might have been part of that time period when Lorraine had fully taken over from gary.
@DerekLippold2 жыл бұрын
I could see running it roughly as written but not without telling the players what’s up. It seems a bit disingenuous otherwise. Maybe even just describing the opening fight instead of playing it.
@captcorajus2 жыл бұрын
Exactly. To me, rolling dice and playing it out like a regular combat/ scenario implies the players have a chance to change things or make a difference.
@richmcgee4342 жыл бұрын
@@captcorajus Agreed. If this is just a preordained outcome there's no reason to drag out the dice.
@markwalker44859 ай бұрын
I don’t like when I can’t make my own choice. I don’t mind if I have to make a low level character to fit in. But if the GM is a killer GM I will pull out my oldest character and so will my dad friend. Then the game is over
@ishmiel21 Жыл бұрын
Why should the characters have a chance to beat every single enemy they face. Isn't it likely that there are creatures or magic users or any other type of things that are just beyond the players capability at that time? I don't think it's a railroad to introduce an enemy that can't be defeated by the players. That's just the world being the world.
@TheLordUrban Жыл бұрын
Is Vecna alive or is he undead? This is all very confusing.
@captcorajus Жыл бұрын
Vecna is a Lich, which makes him undead. :)
@albanmahoudeau1779 Жыл бұрын
written by Carl Sargent.Not ZEB COOK.
@ishmiel21 Жыл бұрын
If you have a player that rage quit the game when their character dies then that's the problem with that player, not the adventure. You say that the start of this adventure is bad, but what you mean is that you don't like it. It is not inherently bad. There's nothing inherently wrong with it. It might not be for everybody but that's OK. I think it's kind of an awesome beginning but that's only because I have cool players who aren't little babies that run away if a character dies. Specially when it's a character that they're playing for just the first time and not someone they Grown to care about over session after session.
@captcorajus Жыл бұрын
I appreciate the input, but my problem here is not with the players. My problem is.. that the opening scenario pits the DM against the players. The DM is actively trying to kill the PCs. To me, that breaks TRUST between the DM and the players in a big way, and I don't think that's a good thing.
@ishmiel21 Жыл бұрын
@@captcorajus I'm not sure how that would break trust. As long as the DM is playing dar, ie, not fudging the dice, then I don't see a problem.