RUNWAY INCURSION. United Boeing 777 entered runway without clearance. REAL ATC

[@southseasflying]

Of note - on the 10-9 Jeppesen Chart for PHNL: "Wide body and four engine turbojets landing rwy 4R roll to end of rwy, no left turn at twy K without tower approval". Not sure if asking if they 'got it' constitutes tower approval, but I'd give the UAL pilots the benefit of the doubt on that one. Another factor is that it's not possible for an aircraft to clear 4R and hold short of 4L, if they clear 4R they'll be on 4L and if they are short of 4L they will still be on 4R. Tower use to issue taxi clearances for aircraft to cross 4L and hold short of 4R on E and it was causing a huge number of incursions because the instructions as they were issued were impossible to comply with, so it was stopped after a lot of complaints from pilots.

[@user-pf5xq3lq8i]

Interesting, so they should have replied "unable, give me another exit please".

[@andrewtalsness1802]

@@user-pf5xq3lq8i Assuming the UAL pilots are as professional as all airline pilots should be, they were aware of that chart note and planned on rolling it down to the end. With Tower asking them if they can make Kilo, they probably assumed they would get clearance to cross 4L knowing that they cannot clear 4R and hold short of 4L at the same time, with them being such a large aircraft. Probably why they didn’t say unable to taking that exit.

[@drmayeda1930]

At HNL there are 3 runways 4L and 4R would be the two parellel runways and the newest is a single physical runway but the L and R refer to different sides of the same physical runway Adding another runway might not be viable option.

[@andrewtalsness1802]

@@drmayeda1930 There are definitely 4 runways at HNL

[@Stepclimb]

@@drmayeda1930 Not depicted on this animation is 8R…This is the reef runway used mainly for departures. HNL has 4 runways

[@xa613rzinfiniteflight8]

you can hear the change in her voice like "well fck" 🤣 no one wants ATC to tell em to copy down a number cause you know very well you did something you shouldn't have

[@rswear]

she was like, oh.. they did notice...

[@arctain1]

To be clear, what you actually know is that Tower *thinks* you did something wrong. That’s why it’s a conversation. ATC aren’t cops.

[@drmayeda1930]

Yep, the voice on the radio changed after they turned off 4R.

[@eltomas3634]

I'm not sure why United decided to roll onto a runway in front of landing traffic without a clearance and ignoring a very specific hold short instruction, but the guy on the radio who said "Visual Sep, Caution Wake" is by far the coolest cat around.

[@mrz80]

Maybe the pilot flying the airplane wasn't paying close enough attention to what the pilot on the radio was saying? Breakdown in cockpit communications? Although, I'd think it would take real effort to misunderstand "Hold short runway 4L" as "Cross runway 8L" :D

[@archstanton6441]

Because he/she made a mistake.

[@rubenvillanueva8635]

@@archstanton6441 A huge MISTAKE!

[@waffle911]

I've been told PHNL has inconsistent runway and taxiway upkeep, so some markings and signage may not be adequate (or missing). Taxiway Kilo between 04L and 04R is marked on the map as a runway incursion Hot Spot (Specifically, HS2) because it's too short for large aircraft to hold while also clearing 04R, and the markings are easily missed when vacating the runway. Plus, if you miss the marking for the combined 04L-22R/08L-26R stop bar, you immediately see the stop bar facing the other way for 04R-22L, the very runway you're trying to safely vacate (and thus the stop bar a pilot would normally be expected to cross in haste), which can cause confusion about current location on the ground for crews not super familiar with the airport. The controller cleared United off the taxiway at Kilo to expedite taxi to the terminal and likely also to quickly vacate the runway for traffic on 2 mile final, but I've been told Heavies in particular are often advised to continue to the end of 04R to Taxiway Charlie to avoid this Hot Spot. Basically, the design and markings of that stretch of pavement are terrible and non-standard, and the tower controller could have made a different choice.

[@nw6gmp]

Should not have happened -- this spot is listed as a hotspot and the text reads "Aircraft landing Rwy 04R and exiting left onto Twy K, sometimes fail to hold short of Rwy 04L-22R and Rwy 08L-26R."

[@WinginWolf]

Therefore, if it’s a recurring problem, something also should be done about it than to “hope” pilots won’t screw up. If there’s room to hope, there’s room to not…. In the future.

[@cypilotiowan4761]

If that’s the solution, every major airport in the USA is gonna be spending millions of dollars. The hotspots are designated on the charts, and also attenuate on most EFB’s. No reason to miss one.

[@ryanreeves1429]

That what airline ASAPs are for. That will be a non punitive way for the pilots to report the violation, make their statement as to why they think they had the violation, and provide a statement on how they and the rest of the pilot group can prevent that mistake from happening again. It also creates the paper trail to study how often it really happens.

[@waffle911]

Sounds like a controller judgement error as much as a pilot error. Best way to prevent a pilot making an easy mistake is not giving them the option to make it in the first place.

[@drmayeda1930]

@@WinginWolf That might be a little difficult. There is only so much land available at HNL Why a Boeing 777 was on 4R is beyond me. It should have been on 8L. One factor the ATC needs to consider is keeping taxi distances short. A few decades ago, we had a problem with flat tires. The theory was the taxi distance was too long.

[@briancooney9952]

As a pilot, best advice i can give to other pilots is that when they tell you to copy a number, just check your ego at the door, apologize and assure them that it won't happen again (and mean it!) . ATC wants their job to be easy and so do we. From my experience, they're on the same team as the pilots, and want to keep us from smacking into each other.

[@geekytraveler5899]

As non-pilot, just a frequent flyer curious person, a question from me: Aside from controversy of the case (from discussion above), let's say tower and / or commision later decided it was a pilot's deviation / honest mistake made by the crew. What would be the consequences? I don't think they would take away the pilot's license immediately? A big fine? Re-trainings? Note in the license to keep track if they are making those deviations frequently enough? I mean - on one side such mistake it's obviously dangerous and could potentially lead to hundreds of lives. On the other - it's quite hard and costly also to train a 777 pilot / cpt as well, no guarantee that other would be better - if they did a fair non-intentional mistake(I don't think any pilot in right mind would go like "f.. ATC I do what I want") - what's the typical outcome of that phone call they make?

[@briancooney9952]

@@geekytraveler5899 i think it mostly depends on the severity of the incident, but also the pilots attitude as well. In the case of and honest mistake, i think they're a little more lenient, as long as it didn't have a big potential to take lives. Something blatantly idiotic might be a different story. Typically theres a phone call, and it gets resolved over the phpne. But ATC can also make a report and initiate an investigation that could take months, and end with a license suspension.

[@brianlacroix822]

you're not a pilot you're one of those " As a ________, I have some obvious advice for everyone..." that is on every youtube video lol

[@briancooney9952]

@@brianlacroix822 yep, must be! 😂

[@anthonyfillion3231]

Seems like they could just engineer out the risk of this happening by getting rid of Taxiway Kilo. It seems like a high risk just to save a little money in fuel by shortening the taxi routing. Either roll out to the end, or exit onto 8R, then left onto that southeastern most taxiway if you need to reduce the landing intervals.

[@markcampanelli]

The engineering of that runway intersection seems questionable.

[@DomManInT1]

Until you consider the pilots of the heavy had probably been to that airport before and had looked at their charts. And, they were given specific instructions to hold short of 8 left.

[@rubenvillanueva8635]

It is just a simple matter of listening, copying, understanding and complying with the tower instruction. Layout of the runway had nothing to do with this incursion.

[@Karenonflute]

My thoughts exactly! I tried to find an accurate map of that taxiway with measurements (nsl) but it appears to be short and angled. Was there room for a 777 to park there without its left wing sitting on 8R or its tail still on 8L? Perhaps someone with more knowledge of that airport can inform us. United obviously did do the incursion, but did they have a reason? They must have known another plane (don't know what kind) was on a short final. It would be interesting to hear what other pilots have to say about this!

[@rubenvillanueva8635]

@@Karenonflute If you look closely, you can make out the hold line, where United should have stopped on that taxiway, with the Left wing clear of 8L.

[@NuncNuncNuncNunc]

@@DomManInT1 I think the issue was not holding short of 4L which happens to meet 8L and K at a single intersection. Did the pilot see 8L marking and miss that it is also 4L? That said, it should have been clear that they'd be crossing _a_ runway and had not been cleared to do so.

[@DMarchenFULL]

That left and hold short of runway is specifically a Hot Spot on the charts for this very reason. I think pilots messed up glad it turned out the way it did. “Aircraft ldg Rwy 04R and exiting left onto Twy K, sometimes fail to hold short of Rwy 04L-22R and Rwy 08L-26R.”

[@mmayes9466]

Not unusual at all. Pilots often parrot a controllers instruction without comprehending. More likely with complex instruction as the game becomes “can I remember every word” vs are we comprehending

[@francisschweitzer8431]

EXACTLY!!! Parrot Syndrome…it’s a thing

[@rubenvillanueva8635]

Sooner or later these "parrot pilots" will become dead ducks!

[@Frankisoul]

I laugh so hard each time the controller gives the number. It’s like, “Yeah I hope you had fun doing that. Here have this…😂.”

[@w.ryanbutler8097]

I’m very curious what the signage at that intersection looks like. I could understand a pilot missing a ‘hold short RWY 4L’ command if the signage shows ‘RWY 8-26’ first. Not a good idea to design a taxiway that intersects two runways that are already intersecting.

[@mblumber]

I looked it up in Google maps. when you exit on K there's a single hold short line that indicates both runway 4L and 8L. The hold Short line for RWY 4R is actually behind this one. if you're not familiar with the airport, this is an easy mistake to make

[@martincook3201]

Forgive me if I've misunderstood, but how is it even possible to exit 4R there and hold short of 4L? Look at the dotted and solid lines on the threshhold lines on Google Maps. The southern most line isn't the exit from 4R, it's the entrance to 4L. And the northern most line isn't the entrance to 4L, it's the exit from 4R. That triangle of asphalt isn't a safe zone between runways. It's a place where you're on both runways simultaneously. ATC put United into an impossible situation.

[@st.johnschuckatuck8429]

Turn left on K Hold Short of 4L was the call from the tower. The pilot could have stopped at the hold short line on K before entering 4L, they just would not be clear of 4R until they proceeded. There was inbound traffic but they would have cleared 4R before it was an issue.

[@Clarkstonlife]

Yeah I don't like it that holding short of 4L would make you not clear of 4R. Pilots are trained to vacate the runway asap but the instruction to hold short was not complied with. Something to think about.

[@markw1123]

It is not possible to clear 4R and hold short of 4L, the airport diagram is clear on this. Depending on traffic it is preferable to stay on 4R until 4L traffic is clear. It was expectation that they clear the runway after landing but this is not what the controller wanted. They should have stayed on the exit of 4R.

[@RyanMiller3039]

It appears there is not enough room for a 777 to vacate 4R at kilo and hold short of 4L.

[@Kalikus808]

They weren't instructed to vacate 4R, they were instructed to hold short of 4L.

[@RyanMiller3039]

@@Kalikus808 they were given confusing orders.

[@robscaife589]

As a layman it strikes me that there's a lot going on there, with two runways and a taxiway intersecting over one piece of ground. I guess it's the pilot's job to figure that stuff out though.

[@rubenvillanueva8635]

@Rob Scaife...not much really going on there. Just a matter of two pilots, not paying due attention to their task at hand. The instructions given were plain and simple, all they had to do was understand and comply. Assume nothing, just comply with the instructions.

[@WinginWolf]

Very odd hold short paint too: the two “porous sides” face inward looking at Google maps, satellite view. I guess for this intersection, just hold to make sure no part of the aircraft (like a 777) is clear the runway edge lines of the holding-short runway?

[@HH-mw4sq]

What is up with these 777 crews and crossing active runways when instructed to hold short? When approaching any runway while on the ground, don't they look to see if there are any aircraft on final or waiting for departure?

[@DomManInT1]

You are correct. As a pilot it is your responsibility to ALWAYS make an honest attempt to make sure your path is clear before proceeding.

[@bruceabrahamsen221]

As a pilot, even when cleared to cross a runway I look both ways to make sure it's clear of traffic.

[@NBT2469]

I know nothing of flying, but that would certainly be the correct procedure.

[@NBT2469]

@@bruceabrahamsen221 It’s like what our parents tell us: always look both ways before crossing the street.

[@ideegeniali]

they may well have watched, and saw the other aircraft already stopped

[@Hawker900XP]

This seems to be the new normal. The electronic charts make it so clear your present position on the ground.

[@445fhn]

These are getting worryingly common now

[@MomedicsChannel]

No, you are just being made more aware

[@fpt9694]

​@@agoogleuser4317 youtube creators know that runway incursions get more views now than they used to. So they're just publishing more to ride the wave and causing even more panic

[@Karenonflute]

I don't know if these are happening more often now, but FAA is certainly concerned. They are holding an emergency safety meeting next week.

[@NBT2469]

@@MomedicsChannel That’s definitely possible, but disturbing, nonetheless.

[@apilotspersective]

@@MomedicsChannel No. The experience level of ALL airline pilots is dropping precipitously. It is a serious industry problem. This is happening at the highest rate in 15 years.

[@cageordie]

LOL! KHNL? That's PHNL. Hawaii and Alaska are P not K.

[@sharkey086]

Pretty scary to say the least

[@archstanton6441]

Pilot error. Also, did you notice her voice changed when she was asked to call the tower? She knows.....

[@Pereux0]

It's never good news when you gotta write down a number

[@dougschwieder3627]

She then probably handed it to the pilot flying, aka pilot taxiing, after landing anyway.

[@ChewyToeNails]

Is it me or these "near misses" becoming more frequent? As I am currently training to get my ppc. I am starting to wonder if it's worth it? I was thinking I'd like to fly freight or medical eventually. My thinking was, driving a semi truck on the ground is becoming ridiculous and dangerous due to the dmv handing out licenses like candy. Therefore, without proper training in my humble opinion, a person of any age, any culture, any level of education, any mental capacities, can operate a deadly weapon. The amount of knowledge and training one does to first ride a motorcycle or to obtain a CDL or add any classifications to that CDL is arduous but good. Yet we are surrounded by those that have NO business operating any such devices. Your basic class R drivers licensed individual can obtain and hold a card that says they are allowed and have a right to operate an assortment of different class vehicles with ZERO training. Just some very basic knowledge of what to do at a stop sign, and not even a requirement of how to drive stick, or what to do in a break down or emergency. I watch them have no idea how to add fuel even. I figured, heck with it. I will just take my interests from the truck, to the sky. Coming from a perspective of how much more training, testing, and responsibilities that are required to fly a plane. The stories and adventures with my father and grandfather's, and great uncle about how seriously the attitude towards flying is. Well, those stories are from 50-60 years ago. Before I was born. Now, with the advent of KZbin and instant media sources. I find incident after incident as if I'm listening to the morning traffic report of what chaos is ensuing on the local freeway! It is befuddling to me. I still see countless incidents and crashes. Autopsies telling stories of drugs. Ego fights on radios. Not paying attention. Turned wrong way. Taking risks. Impatience. The disregard of tower and other planes, thinking they either are more important, or know better. Crossing, turning, entering, taking off, amd landings without permissions or communications. Some how, passing an examination to obtain a PPC or higher and having seemingly very little knowledge, ability, or understanding to be operating a flying machine. Mostly, I find that even the very smart, can pass all these trainings and tests, and yet when they are enveloped in real world scenarios. They lock up, or crumble. The painfully obvious to me is how this new era of humans becoming pilots, are the ones that have been taught WHAT to think. Not "HOW". So, with my nonsensical incoherent ramblings rant now complete. I ask, is it worth it to become a pilot now days if I am just going to battle the same idiots in the sky that are on the ground with far more greater risks and consequences!?

[@Potato-dx5mc]

It's you.

[@kentd4762]

Great and insightful rant, especially what you said about people not knowing HOW to think anymore. Yes, what passes as qualified CDL drivers in some cases is truly scary--unguided 80,000 lb. missiles... From a somewhat grumpy 61-year old who has been flying since 1981--both in the USAF and civilian world.

[@ChewyToeNails]

@Potato lol nice retort. I never knew it was so simple. All this time. It was me this whole time. Never having been to jail, never touching any drug, not being an addict, I don't drink. Working hard, being productive, helping others, making the good choices even though they are the hardest to make, and the longest to see through. All this time, I should have been causing trouble, drinking and drugging, living an uneducated, unproductive, leach on society, lazy troll of an existence. Only finding thrills in others misery, caused by me getting a joy out of antagonizing others for no other reason than to bring them down to my level so that I am no longer alone in my own pathetic couch potato existence. Like you?... Is that how it's me?

[@ChewyToeNails]

@KentD Much appreciated, sir! Guided missle is a great term to use. Although, I have personally been WELL beyond 80,000 lbs lol. There is nothing like trying to stop on a fire with that amount of physics against you, to check the functionality of the ol adrenaline and sphincter. I learned early on why people would kid about why mothers were always concerned if in an accident that their loved ones had clean underwear in the glove compartment...

[@FlySafe1000]

You are correct; this is what happens when you lower the bar in hiring. I spent over 25 years in aviation, and the standards are being reduced because skin color and gender must be considered for hire. They are going to kill hundreds of people one day on this crap. Hire ALL people based solely on job performance.

[@johnbrickel6446]

You heard her heart sank when she responded to that number call

[@wpistol]

With guidance I wonder what airport designs would look like if PILOTS designed them.

[@ancientlord7695]

"Dat rite youz cleared to land and sheet"

[@ARFFWorld]

Call that number ☎️

[@sylviaelse5086]

A 777 is barely clear of 8R runway when it has to stop at the 4L/8L hold line. I can easily imagine a crew who are concentrating on being clear reaching a point where they can no longer see the hold line before they even start to think about it. Perhaps aircraft on 8R should be instructed to stop on the runway until they can cross 4L/8L.

[@user-pf5xq3lq8i]

No, they might need a go around or skim the landing. They could have spaced him out further to give lots of time to allow 777 back to the gate before clearing him to come in. But they didn't do anything wrong requesting the 777 wait in a very strange little spot. If 777 felt uncomfortable being asked to sit in that strange little spot, the crew, who should know the layout can say "unable, reroute please". Instead they did something incredible, they made up their own route. Both pilots need retired for that.

[@johnford5568]

She read back "hold short 4L", then proceeded to cross 4L. Don't forget, its not just her, its the other seat also missed it. Amazing. 'Pilots' with that kind of mental disconnect over technical instructions should probably find other occupations. True pilots have a healthy awareness of our tendency to ignore details and remain attentive until the parking brake is set at the gate. Ask any true pilot, they will probably tell you they pay extra attention when around airports with interesting runway layout crossings.

[@danielcgomez]

strange ...She called back the instruction correctly, yet completely ignored a vital part of the instruction?? and other crew missed it, or went along with the missed instruction??

[@NuncNuncNuncNunc]

Was she Pilot Flying?

[@danielcgomez]

@@NuncNuncNuncNunc not sure ...depends on what that airlines protocol for duty assignments. I'm not trying to fuel the gender stereotypes. If you're good at your job, then keep it up 😎

[@pitottubed70]

@@NuncNuncNuncNunc First Officers do the talking while the Captains taxi. So, no she wasn’t “at the wheel” when they crossed the runway.

[@danielcgomez]

@@pitottubed70 But the Person talking on short final was male. Which leads me to think that he was in the communications role? Roles switched after landing?

[@RainbowBier]

man lucky that it was just a cessna, any big plane would just have smashed right through them or would have to make a emergency go around. stupid all around

[@buddycheck84]

384 should have had a fire set under their butts by Tower. Tower, after telling Kamaka 145 hold short runway 8L, should have told United 384, *Increase speed United 384, Increase speed 384. Clear runway 8L.* Something, anything to drive home the urgency and wake the complacent - the hell up.

[@khall187]

I suspect he knew the other aircraft was able to land and slow using minimal runway but you're right that's a hell of an assumption.

[@buddycheck84]

Another thing is: are pilots so lulled into being told when to take off and land and which way to turn.....that they don't use the windshield.

[@haroldlipschitz9301]

It was not at that level of incident or risk. How much runway do you think a C206 needs to finish a landing roll? Get real

[@buddycheck84]

​@@haroldlipschitz9301 Got a grip and got real ... 2 months ago. 😂 Good lookin out.

[@Morpheen999]

"Possible pilot deviation"

[@mikemilner8080]

Was the error so obvious to the flight crew that the controller didn't bother with the standard "possible pilot deviation" phrase before asking them if they were ready to copy a phone number?

[@qwerty112311]

@@mikemilner8080 they very frequently don’t say pilot deviation.

[@rolandvachon9848]

Somebody is going to have some "splaining" and probably at lot of paper work to do .

[@josem2468]

McDonald's hiring.

[@SmokeyBCN]

Tower says right at echo, pilot goes left at echo, asks for confirmation, Tower says left at echo... confusing situation all round.

[@rubenvillanueva8635]

@@mflboys Pilot of the Csna advised the twr they would be parking on the north side, whilst still airborne. Controller probably a bit rattled after having UA cross the rwy without approval.

[@jdmillar86]

It's possible the animation is slightly out of sync with the audio there; the call confirming left may have actually come before they started turning.

[@clickster1883]

You can hear defeat in her voice when she says, “Ready to copy.” (3:30)

[@exploreraa983]

WOW, not cool! Had that been a bigger plane landing 4L, the outcome could have been tragic. Makes me wonder what the pilot monitoring was doing????

[@sparty94]

this system of radio communications could really use improvement.

[@drmayeda1930]

Add that to the "things to improve" list the FAA has. Priority is updating their computer systems.

[@rubenvillanueva8635]

Nothing wrong with the radios, just a failure by the pilots to comprehend, "Hold short"

[@waffle911]

Not a whole lot more that can be done with radios themselves; phraseology has been optimized and standardized to a pretty fine degree by now for the utmost concise clarity. The rest is up to the humans using the radios to follow through, and there's only so much humans can do and process at once. The next step is improved airport infrastructure design, and Taxiway Kilo between 4L and 4R is particularly poorly executed. That's why it's been designated a Hot Spot on the PHNL Airport Diagram for this exact type of incident happening with some degree of frequency.

[@nzcyclone]

What I find most strange and disturbing about this is the United 384 pilot even reads back the ATC instruction of "hold short of 4L, United 384" and yet proceeds to cross it without stopping.... It does not matter if they had not yet cleared 4R they were specifically told to hold short of 4L also they were told there was an aircraft landing on 4L, situational awareness does not appear to be strong...... Yes, I realise they have a lot to do. But that does not ever excuse endangering themselves, their crew and their passengers and aircraft not even mentioning the other aircraft. We are all human, therefore we can all at times do something which later on we go "OMG why did i do that" and then learn from it. We just hope and pray that when we do do something stupid we get away with it without anyone harmed or injured. I hope this is one of those times for that United Crew, Yes, they made a mistake, hopefully they have learnt and do not do it again. But looking at that map, I wonder how the labeling is done for that intersection.... maybe it is not very clear what is what, but then, in saying that surely the pilots have a airport layout plan pulled up on one of their screens..

[@briancooney9952]

gee, it's almost like the pilot controlling the aircraft is not the one making the radio calls. sorta like a copilot is making the calls, and a pilot is doing something else.

[@dutchpilotguy]

Am I the only person who thinks this UAL FO sounds like the FO from the Providence, RI incursion? I mean, it can’t be the same, right? RIGHT?!

[@麻吉-h5b]

Same lo

[@mikemicksun6469]

Sorry to say this but three or four or these hold short major airline incursions on the runways. Involved a crew that is clearly not on the game for whatever reason. Clear instructions read back but not followed. To me something fishy in the cockpit with crew resource management. Mixed crews or old and young but something is off. The system is failing with everyone trying to save time and fuel.

[@Newberntrains]

Wow and PHNL the 8s are a known hotspot bad crew SA

[@nw6gmp]

exactly!! and it specifically addresses this "Aircraft landing Rwy 04R and exiting left onto Twy K, sometimes fail to hold short of Rwy 04L-22R and Rwy 08L-26R."

[@KaamFraudy]

Lol this is becoming more frequent for this year

[@haroldlipschitz9301]

Negative - social media just makes us aware of them all.

[@chrisschack9716]

This could all have been avoided if the aircraft landing 4L was given LAHSO. Means able to safely exit and cross at K. Alternatively, exit 4R at the end.

[@briancooney9952]

LAHSO is typically for crossing runways with landing or departing traffic, not taxiways. I suppose they could've done that here, but had no need to, outside of runway incursions.

[@chaoszombie9995]

774UA is the first boeing 777 in service.. i will be ANGRY.. if they lose it to a crash..

[@gustafpeyron]

5 dollars this was an ioe lol. captain sounds like a check airman and united is still cranking out 777 fos

[@PetrolHeadBrasil]

AGAIN!!??!?!!??

[@dougschwieder3627]

For all of the wannabe tough guys who think it has something to do with equal opportunity hiring, etc, I have some information. It's the system. The system, as you actual pilots know, has been set up to get as many planes as close together as they can on landings and takeoffs in order to make the shareholders richer. So, with that system in place, now you have lots of retirements and new crews due to that little thing we had a couple of years back, called the pandemic. So this system that's designed for people who make no mistakes is starting to show that people do make mistakes, especially people who are not as experienced as the previous people. I hope that helps!

[@INV4LIDT4RGET]

This, great summary. Anybody who is an actual pilot knows this, it has nothing to do with equal opportunity hiring. Hiring is exploding right now everywhere and companies will take anyone that meet the requirements. They are 100% not passing up qualified candidates, either in the cockpit or atc

[@morthomer5804]

Oops, I did it again I went too far Ooh baby baby

[@PlymouthVT]

Yeah haven't been on these ATC videos but a year or so there very addictive but even I know copy a number is not good.

[@spionsilver9626]

whyyyyy didnt they hold short of 4 L ???? i mean the pilot confirmed "hold short of 4 L" why didnt they ?? major fuck up really .. they glad to walk away because the traffic on 4 L was small and could see and brake in time no worries , but try that shit with another passenger jet airplane , dammit you will be in for all hell !

[@catprog]

Looking at the runway on google maps here is my guess. They assuemed they needed to clear 4R and then hold short of 4L. Step1: Clear runway 4R (Crossing the 4L stop bar in the proccess) Step 2: They look ahead and see the 4R stop bar and then think the 4L stop bar is still in front of them and keep going.

[@billakers6082]

As the airlines become more concerned with equity over experience by lowering qualifications, this is only the beginning. There has been more incidents so far this year than the past 5 years. When you have a death grip on your armrests with two seconds to live, take comfort in knowing that you have the most diverse flight crew in the industry. Have a nice flight.

[@42judge]

The FAA has done the same thing. 90% of jobs can be done by anyone with the proper training. Airline pilot and ATC require special skills that require special wiring. Situational awareness, spatial awareness, innate navigational skills are wired. To say nothing about stress management and other things. The pool of people who can do these jobs safely is the subset of people with those skills, and I bet only about 1% of people can do those jobs safely, effectively and not burn out. Watched a clip yesterday where the ATC made five mistakes in three minutes. She fixed four. The fifth required the pilots to take actions to maintain safe separation.

[@briancooney9952]

which pilot was flying, which was on radios?

[@waffle911]

So, literally none of that is true; everyone must meet the exact same criteria regardless of any demographic consideration. What **is** true is a severe shortage of qualified pilots after Congress doubled the required flight hours before qualifying for a commercial license (double the ICAO standard, and with no evidence or FAA/NTSB guidance to support this decision). Problem is, not only does this mean it takes twice as long to get a commercial pilot ready to hire, it also pushes pilots in training past the point where they're learning and reinforcing new skills and into a sort of rut of solidifying bad habits without oversight instead. Bad habits that are harder to train out of by the time they get qualified for commercial flight as they've gotten out of the groove of *actually learning anything at all*. Worse, doubling the required hours doubles the expenses incurred by the pilot in training before they can start making a real living flying, making it far too expensive for many otherwise capable individuals to enter the pool of talent, and what we do get instead is disproportionately white and affluent (i.e. the least diverse flight crews we've seen in probably 30 years). This shortage puts pressure on airlines to promote more less experienced pilots from regional jets to main line jets faster as many older, experienced pilots chose to retire during the pandemic furloughs of 2020 instead of sit idly on the sidelines getting paid nothing. At this point carriers will hire and promote literally anybody who can meet the minimum qualifications, diversity or experience be damned. They can't afford to be picky and only hire "The Best" because they turned their backs on The Best and now there isn't even enough "Good Enough" to go around.

[@billakers6082]

What's isn't true? We were aware of the pending pilot shortage in 1976 so it's no big surprise. Southwest airlines just announced yesterday they will hire pilots with diversity being the primary hiring criteria over experience. When was minimum qualifications reduced? I started flying in 1970 and retired with 36,000 hours in big jets and I don't recall when that reduction of qualifications occured. I do recall when qualifications were increased from 500 to 1,200 hours due to a marked increase in commuter airlines accidents in the 1990's. Unfortunately the industry will start taking hits when smoking holes occur coast to coast and it will be blamed on everything but diversity. Mistakes made in aviation is very unforgiving and WOKE won't work in aviation. If it ain't broke don't fix it. I'll never fly again.

[@qwerty112311]

@@waffle911 UA’s program makes a big deal of 80% of graduates being from “marginalized groups.” They are excluding far better qualified students from the program for some DEI bullshit. Are those 80% qualified? probably. Are they the most qualified? absolutely not.

[@rubenvillanueva8635]

Both pilots in United 384, flying using IFR, "Intestinal Flight Rules", Their heads were up their Rectum!

[@MrMyers-oi7op]

This has got to be a dual fault incursion, with primary fault going to the TOWER. These runways are in too close proximity of one another for parallel landing operations, specifically because of the lack of available taxiway on the Kilo high speed exit between RNWY 4R and RNWY 4L, and especially because of the additional intersection of RNWY 4L and RNWY 8L. I have not reviewed the approach plates or allowable proceedures and operations of this particular taxiway/runway setup, but I'm almost certain that with this layout and active landing runway, which is RNWY 4R.....parallel landings should NOT be allowed. And although the Cessena aircraft landing on 4L touches down well after the United jet, this instance in they eyes of the NTSB should and will be classified as a parallel landing situation.....and if prohibited on this pair of runways (if it is not prohibited, it should be), the Tower Controller is in my opinion, responsible for creating a very confusing, grey-area situation for the United crew, as a high speed runway exit is just that, and you would not proceedurally have landing operations on a parallel runway that is that close to the what is obviously the longer, main, active landing runway with heavy jets exiting via the HIGH SPEED EXIT! Yes, the United crew failed to follow the Towers instructions, but the more I think about it, the instruction to hold short in this situation firstly, puts the United crew in a situation where they might be wondering if they have completely even exited their landing runway.....and secondly......would not be a part of proceedurally correct landing operations and therefore seem very foreign and likely to catch even an experienced heavy jet cockpit crew by surprise. Remember, the United crew asked for confirmation of landing clearance......a hint that something is occurring that they were not expecting......something that is not a part of normal landing operations with the respective active landing runway. The Tower controller should have delay vectored the Cessena aircraft (much slower final approach speed) a couple of miles out before clearing them for a visual approach, as doing so would have eliminated the instance of a parallel landing......I am very close to putting ALL of the fault on the TOWER, but tail hanging out in the main landing runway or not, the United crew, whether this entered their minds or not, puts their 777 in a safer situation stopping as directed and have their tail hanging out in 4R, as to putting the main fuselage directly in the path of another aircraft on rollout, because the next arrival on 4R has everything out in front of them.......if the United 777 was unable to clear 4R or their clearance of the runway was even close to borderline......the aircraft on final behind the triple 7 would easily initiate a GO-AROUND, as opposed to "hoping" the parallel arrival on 4L can stop in time. Luckily it was a Cessena.......imagine if was an A330 or something and the crew had chosen minimal thrust reversers because they have a full day layover before flying back to their home base, so they are not worried about heating up the brakes, and want to limit engine wear and tear, so they are planning a lengthy rollout after touchdown. But that is just it.........THAT SITUATION WOULD NEVER HAPPEN BECAUSE THEY WOULD NEVER HAVE.......TWO...... PARALELL......MAIN........ ACTIVE....... LANDING........ RUNWAYS........WITH SUCH CLOSE PROXIMITY TO ONE ANOTHER....... BOTH TAKING HEAVY ARRIVALS. That is just my take on it.

[@mazelme]

$hit happens. I mean, how many times have you crossed the white line at a stop sign and had an 'incursion' into the intersection? There are margins. You can cross a few feet into the intersection without endangering any other traffic. I mean, this 777 did the same thing. Nobody got hurt. Its not even close, nothing happened. Poor pilot dude made a simple mistake like at a stop sign. Really, everyone needs to stop being so uptight about safety. Just saying.

[@je7887]

Once again, sloppy radio discipline!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[@johnpatrick1588]

That will be on the captain as the primary offender then down to FO for not stopping capt since no US passenger airlines allow FOs to drive on the ground unless changed in recent times. Some US freight airlines and foreign carriers let FOs drive the ground.

[@davesilver5493]

You must be a speed reader to only put 9 lines of text up for 11 seconds

[@dfuher968]

Thats what the pause button is for.

[@davesilver5493]

@@dfuher968 poor production. The pause button is for a toilet break and such.

[@johnd5398]

So sorry you didn't like it. Guess you won't be back.. So long! Buhbye!

[@NBT2469]

@@johnd5398 Or more appropriately: “Bye Felicia!” 😂

[@alexandrecarriere2849]

Again.... Jeez

[@Cadence-qt2ux]

Noone ded - planes can continue to commit INCURSION

[@kevinjackson9526]

I don’t get what is up with all these airline pilots messing stuff up.

[@jaredhageman4986]

Well, the thing about airline pilots is they are human. They go through extensive training to minimize mistakes, but it's not possible to completely eliminate them.

[@topofthegreen]

More pilots fired!

[@Cadence-qt2ux]

Noone ded - planes can continue to commit INCURSION

[@saxmanb777]

They won’t be fired.

[@Bench485]

Yet again...

[@rael5469]

A better solution would have been for the small commuter plane to be asked if they would except a land and hold short type of clearance........or vector them out to a greater distance for spacing.

[@sharpe67]

Equity! Affirmative Action! Qualified? Not so much.

[@briancooney9952]

which pilot was controlling? the guy or the girl? Not specified here, so your comment is a bit premature

[@gankala8]

this should not have happened at all. pilot needs to be held responsible.

[@bruceabrahamsen221]

This is becoming a regular thing, inexperienced pilots and controllers???

[@Cadence-qt2ux]

USA getting dumber

[@haroldlipschitz9301]

Being reported on social media is more regular, not the incidents

[@FlySafe1000]

Another example of lowering the standards.

[@josephdale69]

I knew before hearing it that the FO was going to be a girl.

[@bobwilson758]

First : do not mumble BS . It’s important ! 2nd : give clear instructions as you were trained ! Controller is very lucky he was handling a local pilot in the smaller aircraft ! Don’t be too cool - Jerk !

[@johnd5398]

wow.. you should seek help if this got you THAT worked up lol

[@RR-zq3mk]

Glad to see the “diversity” is working well for United.

[@elbuggo]

Don't hurt her feelings, dude!

[@davesilver5493]

stupid comment

[@NuncNuncNuncNunc]

Hard to find a comment thread these days without finding some kind of bigot running their keyboard. Did the PM not call out the instruction properly?

[@elbuggo]

...said the male feminist,@@davesilver5493

[@banjo2019]

I am so sick of mediocre white men complaining about the world changing around them. Do you know how many incompetent white guys in my workplace I have seen continuously failing up, over and over again? It makes me want to vomit. On top of that, I doubt the female was the pilot in command, the male pilot was.

[@TXCHRISZ06]

We're going to be seeing more and more of this type of incident due to relaxing standards across the entire aviation field.

[@SkyWayMan90]

No standards are being relaxed. The system is being pushed to the absolute limit.

[@42judge]

@@SkyWayMan90 To staff a pushed system will result in sub par candidates being accepted and passed with sub standard training. Covid has created staffing problems almost everywhere in our society and it's not surprising that the airlines and FAA are feeling it also. It's made worse in this field because of the risk of massive loss of life, and that the skills needed for the jobs are not all teachable, and I am not sure the people in charge of the system understand that. Situational awareness, spatial awareness, complex navigational skills, stress management are wired and need to be polished. I watched a clip a few weeks ago about a small jet that lost both engines in the midwest. The pilot (copilot?) sounded bored, even when he pointed out they weren't going to make the runway. The ATC guy was professional, helpful and on point. But there was animation in his voice. They had the energy to divert to an alternate with a short runway and just barely slid off the end.

[@haroldlipschitz9301]

Standards are not relaxed. There are absolute minimum requirements for ATP certification, airline IOE, etc.

[@pusb_87english63]

Watched lots of these now id say 85% had women pilots involved, not a coincidence

[@Cadence-qt2ux]

Noone ded - planes can continue to commit INCURSION