RWBY and Representation

[@miadaorerk1681]

of course the community would take the b out of lgbt. they can't even keep the B in RWBY. it's just purple.

[@siddiqsmouse5004]

I laughed at this so hard at this!

[@vardiganxpl1698]

Or white. The W in RWBY now is just blue. so uh, the letters swapped places. So it is now RBWY. Though then again, Yang wore more browns than Yellow. so it is more so RBWB

[@KritoSkywaker]

Holy molly. That was nice. 😂

[@johnynoway9127]

​​@@vardiganxpl1698well.. blake is kinda purplish.. then went white And Weiss became blueish

[@RitaLedezma16]

lol 😆

[@spencermalley10]

It really feels like the fans are more in love with the idea of Bumbleby than how it's actually presented in the show.

[@janschievink1586]

As someone who shipped it in the early years but fell off because of RT's s***** handling of the ship, yeah no duh.

[@Axel_Kasai]

Yeah, a lot of people were just in it for the porn 😂

[@konstellashon1364]

@@Axel_Kasai and to virtue signal as an LGBT+ Ally

[@mauriceisaac3646]

That applies to the entirety of the show in general.

[@thespy6707]

100%.

[@Redscarlet70]

The phrase "Fuck me eyes" is a gift to the English language.

[@Hepheat75]

It is.

[@johnynoway9127]

ahegao

[@gokbay3057]

@@johnynoway9127 That's the past tense of it, not a synoym. (...or would it be a future tense instead..?)

[@tiara9624]

⁠​⁠​⁠@@gokbay3057 ahegao would be the present tense

[@calebkelly8221]

I love ahegao, holds a special place in my... Heart

[@luciferandassociates9255]

I still can't get over the fact that Yang's and Blake's confession was a hostage situation. Confess or be trapped.

[@KritoSkywaker]

Me either. They took the concept of Star vs the Forces of Evil and made it ten times worse.

[@thomasraines1396]

Also it happened when way more important shit was going on and Blake and Yang most definitely didn’t need to talk about it or whatever the stupid prerequisite was for the storm. Also they have Jaune of all people say “seems like I’ve been waiting forever for that” when Jaune as he was presented in the season really really wouldn’t give a fuck.

[@eleonorepb4565]

In my opinion the whole devlopement of the romance between the two feel rushed and pushed

[@KritoSkywaker]

@@eleonorepb4565 Totally agree on there. I belived, that a few more extra scenes could have helped the ship's development.

[@derrickdaniels3955]

​@@KritoSkywakerThe ship should have straight up sailed in V6 or V7, if you ask me it took too much time to get here

[@KaiserShounen]

14:26 "There's definitely a difference between a slow burn and not even turning your oven on." *Airhorn noises* Im so floored by that one.

[@MisteRRYouTuby]

That explains why from Volume 4 onwards this “relationship” is so undercooked.

[@KritoSkywaker]

Nice seeing you here, Kaiser. Hopefully we'll see each other in the future. :)

[@draykohunter6805]

Well, look who it is... Sup?

[@KeyboardKlutz_0]

OOOOOOOOOOHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[@Xanegoh]

I had similar thoughts when watching the anime My-Hime. There was one character who was revealed to have feelings for another in the last 4-6 episodes of the show. The two characters barely had any shared screen time and zero meaningful exchanges. This relationship was so undercooked it was frozen.

[@LizzieShiro]

Hearing “A relationship doesn’t start with ‘I love you’” made me realize a lot of stuff about my writing and my own personal relationships. I needed that wake up call. Thank you!

[@thejudgmentalcritter6584]

I hope everything works out! :)

[@baltulielkungsgunarsmiezis9714]

Wait you didnt know this? I got a girlfriend after talking to her basically every day for a year. In hinesight the best friends who flirt all the time stage looks weird, but its so cute looking at a couple that doesnt realize they love each other yet. But yes you need to know a person before you can know if youre compatable, you should know how much kids the other person wants before saying I love you. Not knowing if your sad partner would like to be cuddled or left alone is how you fail at a relationship. Once a dude I was arguing with online claimed to know me after I pointed out that he cant strawman my opinions to me myself so I gave him 18 questions and he correctly answered 2, for the fun of it I gave them to my then best friend and she correctly answered 17 only underestimating how powerhungry I am cos I hadnt shared my what would I do with magic powers thought experiments yet. Heck since the exchange was over discord I can coppy paste the questions and answers to you too 1 What kind of music I like? 2 What kind of games I like? 3 What kind of people I like? 4 What kind of art do I like? 5 Have I ever had a waifu? 6 What is my opinion on english writing? 7 Would I join the army if Russija invaded the fatherland? 8 Am I shy? 9 Am I arrogant? 10 Am I kind? 11 Am I chearful? 12 Am I bloodthirsty? 13 Am I power hungry? 14 Am I a racist? 15 What do I think about women colouring their hair? 16 Whats my type romantically? 17 Whats my favorite hobby? 18 Do I prefer cities or rural areas? 1 im not good at genres but historical music and stuff by JubyPhonic and anime OPs 2. battle type and building 3. kind people who can match you intellectually and add to conversation and consider things rationally 4. this one I'm not sure entirely but older styles of paintings and realistic animated styles 5. yes 6. English writing doesn't make much sense and they removed symbols they didn't need to 7. absolutely 8. yes 9. no 10. very kind 11. yes 12. no I'd consider you non-violent 13. no you don't crave power 14. not racist however territorial over land (mildly) I've never seen you have a problem with anyone due to race 15. you prefer natural to dyed but you're not against women doing it in general 16. you're very traditional, you want an attractive woman who would be a good mother and wife who gets along well with your family 17. you like travelling and spending time at the lake and gaming but im not sure what your favourite is 18. rural areas (assuming I'm right about what it is) Sufice to say the girl knows very well that when Im sad I am to be cuddled, I know that shes also to be cuddled if shes sad, neither of us really gets the consept of personal space and wishes to be touchy but is too shy, so excelent compatability and theres no shyness when youve talked it over.

[@baltulielkungsgunarsmiezis9714]

Oh great my comment got deleted.

[@Fireclaw5588]

@@baltulielkungsgunarsmiezis9714 Lol what did you even say

[@baltulielkungsgunarsmiezis9714]

@@Fireclaw5588 About the relationship betweeen Neptune and Noire.

[@Xhalo1183]

Ren and Nora is a slow burn. Blake and Yang is a microwave. Goes from frozen with a few holes poked in the plastic cover to done in five minutes.

[@carlosjimenez4997]

Yes, that is true ren and Nora are slow-burn but Blake and Yang are not. there are Literary videos that believe Blake and Yang's ship is the right way for a slow burn. but they are wrong.

[@27Bayleefs]

Yang and blake's development are taking a burrito and setting it on fire type of development. It all got rushed so hard in cringy dialogue and scenes in 6-9 that I can't even look at it. Owl House to me is a romance done right. take two characters, give them different personalities make them interact and grow to appreciate each other and their similarities and differences, don't focus to much on gender or what they identify as just let the characters interact and blossom. luz and amity are fantastic as a couple because they feel natural. they didnt start of as a crush. hell they didnt like each other at first. but it grew and we got to see it.

[@baltulielkungsgunarsmiezis9714]

@@carlosjimenez4997 The proper way to do slow burn is to have the characters spend time together going from aquatances to friends to best friends to finally lovers. Have tones uppon tones one time spent with them just being friends who enjoy each others company, only very slowly introducing the idea that they might care for each other more than friends.

[@baltulielkungsgunarsmiezis9714]

@@27Bayleefs My favorite ship is Nepnowa from Hyperdimension Neptunia. The care free, sharp wited, funny, lazy, forth wall breaking main character relentlessly teasing the hell out of the overly strict, lonely, secretly hates her work and loves when her friends drag her way from it but wont admit it cundere is just so natural. Neptunia has 4 mainline games and 23 spinoffs and in 96% of them either Neptune or Noire saying I love you to the other wouldnt be out of place cos the build up is already all there, the charcters are well compatable and obviously like each other a lot. One of the ways Neptune teases Noire is by calling her lonely heart and saying she has no friends, cos the cundere wont even admit that Neptune is her best friend. Unigear actually did set sail with a backstage confession in one of the spinoffs and everyone cheared it off as it was equally as well developed that. Other than them kissing once the relationship between Uni and Nepgear didnt even change, well it didnt change in what is shown to the public, cos whats the only real difference between best friends and lovers, its something you only do in private.

[@dspace4514]

I hate Bumblebee for two reasons. A) It became canon at the worst possible time, being V9. Ruby and Jaune are clearly in distress and yet they seem to find the time to flirt. B) It's basically their only character arc after they kill Adam. Blake and Yang only seem to look at one another after V6, with them barely interacting with other characters. I don't think Weiss and Blake have had an individual scene until V9, and any Ruby and Yang interactions either have them arguing or crying. Even when they are split apart in V8, the only thing they think about is each other.

[@mauriceisaac3646]

And, of course, while Ruby was having her emotional breakdown, all Yang cared about was defending Blake. Nice to know the cost of Bumbleby was making Yang a terrible sister.

[@kidprime6863]

​@@mauriceisaac3646Not to mention, it's kinda disrespectful for them to be all flirty and making out with one another in front of Ruby and Weiss. This is what people mean when they say "get a room". I get that they're excited about being in a relationship and they want to make the best of their current situation, but they should also focus on trying to find a way home. Plus, I'm sure Ruby kinda feels insulted by it considering she just learned about Penny's death not too long ago. It's like a bad trade off. And yeah, the shippers should've been careful what they wished for. Or else you get the Monkey's Paw. Mind you, I don't think Yang was being a bad sister on purpose. And the fact that Ruby sat around and expecting people to notice her pain rather than tell them herself just proves that even if they try to talk to her, she'd push them and tell them otherwise.

[@lostnemesis]

That's an example of "the writing team really sucks at their jobs" I want to float an idea that I brought up before in another video talking about Rwby, I really feel like the writers needed one perspective they could only handle one character at a time but they didn't really like any of "the main team" it almost felt like the reason they kept using them was because they had to and also the fandom would have been pissed if they didn't. But genuinely I'm not completely hating on the writers some people just can't handle juggling multiple perspectives it felt like they just needed to simplify the story and focus on one person and the people around them occasionally show other things and let it work like that and also I have liked news about other events that could lead into showing it or maybe meeting the people involved later and having it retold but seriously it felt like they could not handle multiple perspectives.

[@Hitoshuratdn]

Number 3. This is not the transformer.

[@TheWarmachine375]

Ironic that RWBY fanfiction stories handled the story and their characters better than Rooster Teeth did.

[@rossman8919]

how is that ironic ? lots of great writers started in fanfiction and it takes less effort on their part since they already have the world and characters created for them

[@hujan1744]

As i've learned through different fandoms, usualy fans do better content with the characters than the official thing

[@eleonorepb4565]

Given the number of RWBY it's not surprisong than some of them are great

[@diveintobricks8216]

That's pretty par for the course at this point.

[@PhoenixFireZero]

​@@rossman8919I think it's ironic that the professional creators of the original thing are being outdone by hobbyists at their own story. It's less a dig at fanfiction writers and more a dig at RT for being bad at this.

[@vicentetemes5793]

I remember like... five years ago? Right after volume 6 ended, I happened to get invited to a RWBY RP discord server (I was on my cringe era at the time). There were a lot of diehard Bumblebysts in the server, and they kept bringing up the masterful and well-deserved gay representation RWBY had done with the scene where two girls who have been basically best friends for a year hold hands and hug during an extremely emotionally fraught situation. I brought up how, hey, while it was cool how they set the whole shebang up with the arguments at the train and the farm and the talks Yang had with Weiss and Ruby in previous volumes, that scene wasn't really gay representation, two girls hugged and cried and held hands after killing the man who had abused one of them and sliced the other's arm off. What resulted was several days of people pinging me constantly to accuse me of being homophobic, because "if they were a man and woman I would consider that a relationship then!" No. No, I wouldn't have. I would have considered it, as I considered it with Yang and Blake, potential _setup_ for a relationship, but it would not have at all surprised me if the next time we saw those hypothetical straight characters together they were just besties. And that's kind of how we saw Blake and Yang the next time they showed up on volume 7, in a "people who hang out with each other and care about each other" relationship that included all of their friends in their found family. Personally, when I'm doing writing I tend to be very impatient; I can appreciate a good slow burn, but when I'm making the story I'm likely to just have the lesbians kiss already so we can get on with the plot with them as a couple.

[@thejudgmentalcritter6584]

It's very annoying how often bumblebee shippers will throw around strawman arguments rather than actually engage with a civil conversation.

[@konstellashon1364]

​@@thejudgmentalcritter6584yup. BY shippers were my first experience with the 'Like it or you're phobic' argument in comments section. Turned me off to discussing ships in general.

[@KritoSkywaker]

@@thejudgmentalcritter6584 I know that very well sadly... The usual arguing I got, is that BB was planned from the very beginning. The more rarer stuff I got, is that I got upset over something, that doesn't matter... Like, RWBY is just a show and two girls kissing shouldn't make me upset. Then I got the homophobic accusation with that statement, that I wouldn't had been upset if Lancaster becomes canon. But I need to ask...how come that story, characterization, buildup, execution and logical sense has become irrelevant?! 🥺

[@moeheil8839]

I've been called the same thing for preferring baked Alaska over bumblebee (I just think Neos infinitely more complex and endearing than Blake, also, enemies to lovers trope is based)

[@KritoSkywaker]

@@moeheil8839 Sheesh...that's really sad. I ship Freezerburn and Ladybug. And some people just say "Those are not the real ship!"

[@scythe8418]

The fact that Blake and Yang were “forced” to confess their feelings because of the stormy bridge dimension that took them there. According to Jaune, you’ll be transported because there is a mental/emotional challenge that’s happening to you. The two would not have confessed their feelings in Volume 9 if it weren’t that. Yang and Blake may be hiding their feelings for one another, but all they’ve done since Volume 7 was being all cutesy and blushy with each other. There were no awkward or angsty moments in their relationship post-V6. The ship may not be forced like many people insist it isn’t, but the story did forced Blake and Yang to confess their feelings. And if you ask me, that says a lot

[@scythe8418]

Technically, there was "angst" with the two in Volume 8, but it was irrelevant and hardly significant to their overall growth/development. Yang asks Jaune if he thinks Blake sees her as a bad person for evacuating the people of Mantle instead of choosing the Amity message. Blake turned her head away with a disheartened or upset expression on her face when she saw Yang when both groups reunited at the Schnee Manor. It wasn't until Yang approached her to caress her face that the two started blushing. That whole scene out of context would give the implication or impression that Blake and Yang had an argument. But they didn't. They didn't make eye contact or talk when everyone split into the two factions in the first episode. I'm wondering if the writers actually thought of a scene where they had argued or that conflict happened between the two, but I guess we'll never know. This whole thing about BMBLB being planned since the beginning puzzles me because it honestly did not feel that way as someone who's been watching the show for 8-9 years due to the BlackSun moments that convinced me that Blake and Sun were going to end up together. I don't have an issue with Blake and Yang being a couple, I find the pairing cute and I have no issue with people shipping it even before Blake and Yang got together, I only disagree and don't understand some of the decisions that were made during the writing process.

[@madmask7987]

I think what really says also is how, despite all the shit going on, (like per instance the fact that they are TRAPPED IN ANOTHER DIMENSION while freaking SALEM is going rampant with TWO relics, and they have NO CLUE how to get back, with an old and clearly traumatized Jaune in tow, oh and Penny having died and Ruby passing out at the news) THAT´S the thing that is the most challenging thing they have in mind... talk about skewed priorities, right?

[@darkimp22]

Same! Not against the ship, I ship them more but I want Blake with sun because he did a lot for her and seemed like they would be together so it just feel off and confusing and how is it gonna go when they meet?@@scythe8418

[@KritoSkywaker]

​@@scythe8418 That's a very good comment. The criterium for me, is to make the romance good. Make it feel natural. But what Rooster Teeth did was not. They probably took many inspirations on different bad pairings, trying to "develop" them from that.

[@Skydmciscool]

@@scythe8418I am in the same boat. Like I get why in some cases things looked like they might become a thing, but after how Blake and sun’s relationship went and sun helping Blake all the way to her home and helping her ack to her team to then suddenly not having any place in the story after is just upsetting to me. Is is based off one of if not the most powerful mythology sun wu Kong please do more with him. I feel that they got rid of him so they can do the whole BMBLB without having to write why Sun and Blake cannot be a thing.

[@playererror4044]

The Owl House has completly ruined my tollerence for same sex romantic fucking around, I wont go into details for people who haven't seen it, but Luz's love life is what a love story with decent pacing actually looks like.

[@SpectreBagels]

Perosnally I wish Amity's love life part got a bit more love to be honest. It's not too big of a deal and not much really needs to be added, but there is a part where is feels like they rushed a part for her

[@casualfanatic4217]

TOH stopped me from hating LGBT representation. Before TOH rainbow corporatism was everywhere, especially Disney. Star vs the forces of evil, Beauty and the Beast, Legend of Korra and RWBY acted proud for doing the bare minimum. So when TOH actually developed Lumity into a genuine relationship that wasn’t used for pride points nor sabotaged the story, I could not have been more surprised

[@SpectreBagels]

@@casualfanatic4217 Honestly it's not that those other shows did the bare minimum, unless the bare minimum to your is the character existing in the show, then I'd agree they did, it's that they did it either poorly or so nonexistent that it doesn't matter. More the second one than the 1st but some did both simultaneously

[@GeneralBolas]

@@casualfanatic4217 To be fair to LoK, they did the best they could considering the time in which it was made (though it still felt forced, but they weren't allowed to have Korra and Asami kiss).

[@samflood5631]

And what’s your problem with the same sex romance between Luz and Amity from Owl House?

[@AmyOhHenry225]

Thank you sooooooo much for addressing this fandoms biphobia. It is not touched on enough and it pisses me off so much. So many bumblebees love to lift Yang up as this lesbian icon while completely ignoring her true sexual identity and when you try to correct them they call you the bigot

[@DinoDave150]

I remember seeing someone say that Yang was in the closet until she met Blake. Hence, she was flirting with guys and it's like, you guys do know that there are people who are attracted to both genders right? That Yang wasn't just flirting with guys to hide she was also into girls, right?

[@AmyOhHenry225]

@@DinoDave150 yea they act like the writers were doing some sort of arc with Yang where she gets over compulsive heteronormitivity and realizes she's a lesbian, which would've been a cool arc don't get me wrong, but that's clearly not what's happening here. All we see is a girl who has shown attractive to boys and girls. That's it and it's called being bisexual

[@thomasraines1396]

@@AmyOhHenry225they would imply a level of complexity and nuance the writers are simply incapable of doing.

[@Pinkywinkykinky]

man that happens with Luz too I've seen for at least some memes that she's lesbian

[@DinoDave150]

@@PinkywinkykinkyThey're just plain wrong. Everyone knows that Amity is the lesbian in that relationship. Or should I say, a Luzbian?

[@MisteRRYouTuby]

This is not representation. This is exploitation.

[@KritoSkywaker]

There's no denying. Took the words right out of my mouth.

[@da_riceboy161]

Yeah, that’s definitely a fact. However, people are gonna be mad and defend Bumblebee (when it’s obviously clear that the ship is literally a speedran titanic that shouldn’t have been made).

[@MisteRRYouTuby]

22:06. Terra Cotta and Saffron Arc. Just because you don’t see the slow burn doesn’t mean it’s not there…But the problem is that the show wants to make Bimbobee the definitive representation of LGBTQIA+ relationships when they couldn’t even do the FRIENDSHIP right… EVEN WHEN THE FIRST THREE VOLUMES SET IT UP PERFECTLY!!!

[@KritoSkywaker]

@@MisteRRYouTuby Honestly I agree with that. I saw 0 complains, when Saffron and Terra was already presented as a married couple.

[@MisteRRYouTuby]

24:12. Sorry, but if that representation DOES NOT represent a contribution to the overarching plot and conclusion to the story, then it is superficial…and a detriment to the story.

[@beatriceh.5666]

it's worth mentioning that, unlike properties from disney and other mega-corporations, rwby was NEVER in a position where it had to censor queer characters & relationships for the sake of shareholders, bigoted executives, or overseas $$$. writers like rebecca sugar, dana terrace and nate stevenson have had to fight tooth and nail to get ANY representation on-screen, and yet the creators of RWBY are still barely meeting the bare minimum when they could have included queer rep from the very beginning if they actually cared about that.

[@janschievink1586]

I think people should write what they want even to the point of inadvertently lacking inclusion it's them claiming they have good representation when they don't that grinds my gears.

[@draykohunter6805]

​@@janschievink1586 Absolutely

[@pax6833]

The writers never envisioned black and yang being together until much later, which is why V1-3 never had any romantic tension between them. The show made them a couple because shippers wanted it and the VAs became shippers themselves.

[@marioritter7014]

@@pax6833 "I'll save you a dance" was not clear enough for you? Did you watch the show with horse-blinders and sunglasses on?

[@pax6833]

@@marioritter7014 Take off the shipping goggles dude, a platonic dance isn't evidence of a romance. Especially since it ended up not actually happening as I recall when the dance was interrupted. Monty Om said RWBY was intended as a sistership. Would you fuck your sister?

[@TomSpeeddraw]

"A few years ago" Me realizing I'm old now, sheesh Biphobia hits right at home so I thank you a lot for talking about it in your video, really appreciate it

[@baltulielkungsgunarsmiezis9714]

I was a fan of this show back when I was the same age as Ruby, I dont think Im old at all.

[@JohnBGang]

I actually think there WAS a very natural, honestly obvious way to confirm May as trans. Penny. It’s not secret that Penny is often read as a trans allegory. In a similar way to Jenny from My Life as a Teenage Robot, that disconnect between her inhuman robotic body and human woman being is something a lot of trans people can relate to. Hell, in the scene where we find out Penny is a robot, Ruby explicitly uses the language of “real girl” while reassuring Penny of her identity. I think there could’ve very easily been a scene in Volume 8 where we see Penny bothered by the whole virus thing, maybe feeling like the ability to be taken over by a computer virus makes her less of a “real girl.” Then, they could have May come in and offer her reassurance, as a (presumably older) woman who already went through the experience of realizing her identity doesn’t need to match what society says her body indicates. Not sure exactly what she’s say (I’m cis, and dialogue like this should definitely be done with a trans writer involved), but I could see an exchange where Penny says “real girls” don’t have these kinds of problems, and May tells her that isn’t true, and talks about her own experiences. Also, the fact that Penny became the Winter Maiden (AS IN, THE UNIVERSE VALIDATED HER IDENTITY AS A GIRL!!!! WHY DO THEY NEVER ACKNOWLEDGE HOW HUGE THIS IS IN THE ACTUAL SHOW) could be brought up. It would be the perfect opportunity to have May’s trans identity canonized while also developing a main character, and not just feeling like a shoe-horned line from the writers wondering how you confirm a trans character is trans.

[@dashred2340]

Imo you definitely have the oven on 🔥

[@antobono64]

Honestly even with everyone saying that shes trans I still can't tell if she is trans or was suppose to be a boy but came out a girl and got hated for it I'm fine for either way

[@TortoiseNotTurtle]

​@antobono64 I'm assuming you mean May? If so then she's trans. Penny isn't necessarily trans but can be seen as a trans allegory eith the whole "becoming a real girl" theme

[@JohnBGang]

@@TortoiseNotTurtle I know. I’m responding to what Critter said in the video: that the way in which May was confirmed as trans in the show was kinda clunky I’m saying that they could have played off of Penny’s popular interpretation as a trans allegory to have had a much more natural (and character developing) scene where May is confirmed as trans.

[@antobono64]

@@TortoiseNotTurtle ya see I would believe you but I still can't tell 👍

[@SukariAyashi]

I have friends that are toxic die hard supporters of RWBY and Roosterteeth and they truly believe a lot of the "They're progressive! There's representation--Look!!" "Well they said they've been planned since the beginning so they were." That being said, I love watching your videos because it makes me feel less crazy because some of this stuff is stuff I've been thinking and saying for years now

[@janschievink1586]

Same friend same.

[@PervertedNovaxc3]

That about checks out with what I've seen of the RWBY fandom over the last few years. Little wonder why I often see it made fun of.

[@boop4945]

CRWBY was already in trouble for burying their gays, pilot boy was supposed to be gay but they decided late that they didnt want to confirm since he immediately dies. I hate that we cant have a conversation about how terrible the representation is in RWBY, not with just queer characters but in general. Theres little to no MxM representation and there's very little diversity amongst the skin tone of our main cast and anytime you try to bring it up other fans basically tell you "just be happy with the scraps you have". In a post Avatar/Legend of Korra and Steven universe era it boggles my mind that were still made to just be happy with scraps and not expect and want more from these shows when we know they can do better.

[@janschievink1586]

Part of me is like yeah Pilot Boy should have lived his gay life and talked about his gay husband and him & Weiss should have had a Luke Skywalker & Han Solo style friendship. But part of me is like diversity checklists are poison for good writing and I hate you for insinuating otherwise. So yeah super conflicted.

[@antondevonlh]

It really sort of smacks of Rainbow Corperatism. I don't think (or am not aware of) any founding members of RT being LGBTQIA+, and doing a creative show about hating bureaucracy doesn't inherently make you progressive. Not that I am accusing Bernie or Gus or anyone of being homophobic (you don't need to be a member to be an ally), but RvB was never really used to address any of this sort of topic, despite being around for years before RWBY. Early RWBY very much aligned with the same sexual orientations as RvB at the time, so even if Monty, Kerry, and Miles planned for there to be LGBTQ+ themes, it is clear they weren't trying to lead with that. Yang starting as a "party girl" and settling into a monogamous queer relationship is a totally reasonable and even relatable arc, to some people, but it never FEELS like that is what RT is trying to do. Instead, they bury Yang's past and push the Bumblebee ship because in the years between when they started RWBY and Season 9, the political landscape changed. More people then ever are out, because it's no longer illegal to be queer. A whole generation has been able to be loud and proud, and companies *have* to market to them if they are going to attract their business. But not being homophobic does not make you an ally by default, and writing about LGBT+ issues while not knowing about them *can* lead to the same issues as men writing women poorly. RT knows LGBT+ content is profitable, so they dove in with both feet to appear "progressive." But it doesn't take the world's greatest internet slueth to discover the history of casual rasicm, homophobia, and misogyny at the company; a pretty common allegation at companies that start as a group of college friends that have a business blow up. "Frat Boy" corporate culture tends to cultivate that kind of sentiment, and I don't think it is inherently malicious (compared to other forms of hate rhetoric), but that doesn't make it right. My tl;dr is that Bumblebee is the animation equivalent of Verizon putting a rainbow flag on their Twitter logo's background, change my mind XD Great video as always, can't wait for the next one!

[@KritoSkywaker]

Sorry if I sound dummy. But what is Verizon?

[@antondevonlh]

@@KritoSkywaker Verizon Wireless is a United States-based phone carrier. One of the largest, they had a big "can you hear me now" commercial campaign.

[@KritoSkywaker]

@@antondevonlh Oh I see. Thx for the clarification. 👍🏻 And your comment is A Tier. 🤭

[@SaiyanGamer95]

Don't forget about the transphobia.

[@SaiyanGamer95]

@@antondevonlh A bit more information: The guy who was famous for saying "Can you hear me now?" in the commercials is gay. He did say they Verizon didn't want him mentioning it, or something similar. I forget, as it's been a while since I saw the interview.

[@fabapples]

I really appreciate you touching upon Bi erasure. As a bisexual myself it’s always great to hear people talk about these issues, especially when I’ve personally had people within the RWBY community discredit the possibility of Yang’s bisexuality to my face because she was “still on the fence”. Amazing video as always.

[@emperorjustice]

The biggest lie they have ever told was that Blake and Yang were planned to be together from the start.

[@Axel_Kasai]

It fits in with the other bad writing of rwby, so it's no wonder people thought it was planned. 😂

[@StoogesFan]

Let's say Blake x Yang was "planned from the beginning." Then this was one of the worst thought out plans for developing a couple.

[@Homodemon]

It was obvious they were written to eventually become best friends since they seemed comfortable to open up to one another (is such a typical anime trope of the two opposite characters sharing a quiet moment during some trying times and then declare they're soul comrades or whatever in the future) and like, planted like that it would've been cute to see their relationship grow stronger with time until they realized they had grown to love each other, specially after what they went through, hell I'm sure there are fanfics that did exactly that in a more compelling way that what ended up happening... But since Rooster Teeth is full of hack jobs that can't write any scene without referencing something from a bad anime they watched once, I guess organic relationship development is way too complex and since the fans wanted their canon ship NOW when the series was at its most popular, they just went "and then they were GFs, the end! We'll figure it out as we go..."

[@baltulielkungsgunarsmiezis9714]

Prity sure Monty just wanted them all to be very good friends.

[@astereotypicalgamer1708]

Remember how Ilia brought up her attraction to Blake in a lamentation while firmly sticking to her political alignment with Adam? Remember how it's an important part of her character but only a single aspect of a complex personality? Do more of that.

[@itspienoon7883]

It's like a lucky fluke whenever Roosterteeth write an interesting and complex character. Like I could name 5 characters who have actual depth and you cannot tell them CRWBY wrote them competently without help or at least on accident

[@astereotypicalgamer1708]

@@itspienoon7883 Ironwood was apparently nuanced and complex entirely by accident.

[@janschievink1586]

@@astereotypicalgamer1708 Adam had trashy shonen writing before they downgraded him to a character from a domestic abuse PSA.

[@TheNotshauna]

Something I've came to notice is how RWBY's best characters are the ones with the least screen time and as screen time increases they become more and more mush. Ilia stands out as one of the best RWBY characters and I can't help think that's because she's only in a couple of episodes.

[@whensomethingcriesagain]

I've written a few things about the issue of representation before, and I think one of my really big points applies perfectly here. In truth, 90% of the time, talk about "representation" is a false argument. The point of representation isn't just to signal that people like that exist, it's that different groups of people lead very different lives and have their own unique stories and experiences, which are really important to explore and develop for audiences who might not have seen stories like their own or the lessons that can come from them depicted elsewhere. It's why just signaling the presence of gay or trans people isn't representation, it's just claiming to be representation without doing any work or representing anything in particular beyond the most shallow possible point. It's why every example of representation I have ever or will ever cite is focused on delving into the deeper stuff, especially stuff like character studies or more heavy-toned interpersonal dramas, because those are the kinds of stories that really matter when it comes to actually representing the more complex and important subjects involved. I will at least contend that the dynamic with Blake and Yang fit the mold of a slow burn for the first 6 seasons, albeit one that could have seriously used more time, especially in the first season. But you do get the establishment of their dynamic, seeing it get put under strain from both directions, then seeing it break and witnessing the fallout for seasons 4-6. In 4 and 5 they're just dealing with the pain of it, and in 6 Blake is aggressively overcompensating for what happened in a way that comes off as off-putting. It's decent for what it is, even if needing more time for development, but then season 7 happened and they just dropped the whole thread, and season 8 wasn't much better. When I went about rewriting their whole subplot, the biggest change I made was getting them together in season 7 now that the primary thread that was the "slow burn" portion got resolved. That just fixed 75% of the problem right there, and the rest can be fixed just by extending some existing conversations in a way that adds more character depth than the original show did to begin with. I'm willing to chalk that up to incompetence and shallow writing in general more than anything else. I also seriously appreciate the calling out of biphobia/bi erasure from the fandom and society in general, that's an aspect very near and dear to my heart and one that I'm very glad to see getting recognition for how serious it is and how much genuine pain it causes.

[@whoevencares123]

I'm currently writing a story where the MC is aroace and even though it's not her main conflict, it is still a major part of her character. One of her worst fears is being left alone with nobody around, but due to her past and personality overall, it's really hard to keep people around her, especially because she has no idea what to do with her life. At this point, she convinced herself that something was wrong with her herself. But as the plot happens, she reunites with her old friend, who she feels pretty attached to, yet in any, but romantic or sexual way. So when her friend(who is pan btw) confesses to her, it almost breaks her heart, because she knows that she won't be able to make that work, but the scariest part for her is the fact that no matter what choice she will make, their friendship is over anyway, thus making her lose another person she just got attached to. It hurts them both for a while, but at the end, they still are able to settle things out and remain friends.

[@pickyphysicsstudent201]

I think an issue with "slow burns" is that the timeframe for each volume is vastly different. Volumes 3, 6, 8 and 9 each take place over like 3 days max. Volume 4 & 7 are stretched over a lot more time (multiple months). Volumes 1 & 2 maybe a month each. It makes more sense for romantic attractions to be slowly built up over a longer timeframe. This means Ren & Nora seems to work more than Yang & Blake. Really think about how not even a week has passed in-universe from the end of V7 to the end of V9 and how it's been like 3 years for us.

[@loiiysailor1177]

It seems heterosexual is big part of RWBY then homosexual

[@snoww3771]

Volume 1 was one semester of the school year, so 4 months, plus a 2 week break. Volume 2 was most of the second semester, so 3 months. So, more than enough time from when Blake and Yang started to become friends to start dating after the "prom" - or even start before. But the prom seemed a natural pause in the excitement to allow B&Y the opportunity realize their feelings for each other.

[@darkglass3011]

Monty said himself: “I have some cast members and some crew members who are like: 'this would be really cool'; but the thing is we can’t just *shove* it out there. It has to be *earned.* Which is, which is the better way to do it. Uh, and a lot of these characters we try to look at them outside of their gender so we just want to do what's *natural* for them.” That's the problem with Bumbleby when it started ramping up in Volume 7 onwards: it was *shoved* in people's faces, so it didn't feel *earned.* Remember that they only just mended their broken friendship after overcoming Adam at the end of Volume 6, and instead of reconnecting and rebuilding their friendship from there, they were ALREADY flirting with each other constantly out of nowhere in the following Volume. Sun and Blake was a pairing that was cooking on a slow-burn from Volume 1 to the beginning of Volume 6 until they parted ways and Blake kissed Sun on the cheek after all they went through together. In order for the general audience (which is everyone else other than the Bumbleby shippers) to accept the Bumbleby pairing, the writers had to AT LEAST put in as much care into crafting Yang and Blake's time together as they did with Sun and Blake. They didn't. The general audience didn't accept this romance because there wasn't any proper opportunity for this romance to develop after Volume 6 concluded. Spending time together while in the presence of their other teammates Ruby and Weiss doesn't count. They have to spend quality time alone together, and fighting Grimm while on missions doesn't count either because it's work and it's their job. Suddenly flirting with each other out of nowhere after Volume 6 concluded made absolutely no sense. It was as if the writers wanted to make Bumbleby happen without putting in the work to make it feel *natural,* that's why it felt forced every time it came up. No one bought what the writers were trying to sell as "quality bonding time" between Yang and Blake except for the Bumbleby shippers who looked the other way when bad writing was lowering the quality of the show. The only real opportunity for Bumbleby to start cooking was starting in Volume 7 and because the writers felt that they started cooking Bumbleby way too late, they turned up the heat to make up for lost time instead of cooking it on a slow-burn like they did with Sun and Blake. By the time Bumbleby finished cooking, the roast was burnt long ago and it left a bad taste in people's mouths. When the general audience pointed out the obvious problems, the Bumbleby shippers looked the other way because the writers were making their romantic fantasies of their favourite pairing come true. It didn't matter if the writing was garbage, they only cared that it happened. This leads to a monkey's paw scenario where you get what you wished for, but it becomes twisted and deformed and ruined what you cared about before it became reality. If the shippers actually acknowledged the very real issues and owned it by saying that they can accept/tolerate them as long as their ship became reality, there wouldn't be such animosity towards them by pretty much everyone. Instead, they deflect, deny reality, and do mental gymnastics to "convince" others that Bumbleby was always a thing from the very "beginning" when there was no such evidence until Volume 7. The really toxic Bumbleby shippers even accuse people pointing out very real problems as homophobic because they couldn't defend, acknowledge, or own these problems; it was just a deflection tool because they know the execution of the pairing was bad. There's a reason why the RWBY fandom has a reputation for being toxic, and it's because of these people. As for the general audience, they see Bumbleby for what it is: fanservice that could have worked, but was poorly executed. Note: Bumbleby shippers were touting this particular quote from Monty about LGBT representation to "support" their claim that Bumbleby was planned from the beginning. I found the video where he quoted this and was utterly disgusted at how they "conveniently" missed the part about Monty stating that such things shouldn't be *shoved* out there and that it has to be *earned.* They cherry-picked the quote just as they did Bumbleby "moments" prior to Volume 7 and it pissed me off so much that I created this comment giving a breakdown of why Bumbleby was awful and used that quote against them. Also, this was copy-pasted from my previous postings on other videos because it encapsulates everything that I felt was off about the writing regarding their pairing. Lastly, I'm glad that your video is nearly identical to my thoughts on the writing as it's not just me. Everyone in the general audience other than the Bumbleby shippers see the exact same issues.

[@KritoSkywaker]

Good to see you here again. 😊🤗 I hope you doing alright.

[@snoww3771]

I agree, the Blake/Yang relationship was handled very poorly. While I can fully understand Blake and Yang holding back, at first - even to the extent of not admitting to themselves their feelings toward the other, it was way way too long. My RL experience with my best friend followed a similar path. Except it only took us about 6 months to finally get together. It's not correct to say that B&Y only started their relationship in the scene in the punderstorm. They were friends. Like me and mine didn't want to risk wrecking our friendship, neither did they. Even though Blake went to the "prom" with Sun, I was expecting B&Y to realize that night what their feelings toward each other actually were. Later, after the RWBY reunion, I thought maybe then. So, after the showdown with Adam, I was expecting them to realize then. Still would have been way too long, but much better than waiting until the middle of Ever After. Whether intended or not, the on-screen chemistry between B&W was there from not long after the initiation in Emerald Forest. Yes, the confessions at that point were a huge risk to B&Y's friendship, as well as teammate status, but left unsaid, their friendship would have crashed, eventually. Now that they have taken this to "I love you", I hope the show will treat them much better. Oh. I am a Neapolitan fan girl. I just can relate to Blake and Yang.

[@BlueAoiNeeChan]

Never forget the $130 RWBY x Ein Lee Blake and Yang Jacket with the "Do you ship Bumbleby? This unisex bomber jacket is custom made and embroidered with emblems and art of RWBY's Huntresses Blake Belladonna and Yang Xiao Long - BBF's, partners, or maybe even more. Either way, they make a formidable team!" description from 3 YEARS AGO. They changed the description when people pointed it out as queerbating and deleted their posts about it on social media. This was the only non-canon ship they'd released merch of till then. No WhiteRose, Freezerburn, Ladybug, and no Monochrome... I would say that a $130 jacket with that description for a couple that wasn't canon until 3 years later is an example of queerbaiting.

[@kayskyvio]

Biphobia is such a serious issue, especially in this fandom, so thank you so much for speaking up about it. I’ve heard some people claim that Blake or Yang could be lesbians because of internal compulsive heterosexuality or “they’re still figuring themselves out”. While that is a very real thing that does happen (after all, I am a lesbian that used to identify as bi until I realized that I didn’t have attraction for men), we have no indication that is what happened to these characters. Since the show spends next to no time developing queer feelings and relationships, we don’t get to see any scenes of Blake or Yang coming to any realizations about their attraction towards men, thus meaning that we, the audience should believe that they do still like men, they just also like women too. In theory them being lesbians seems like a good headcanon, until you realize it comes at the cost of erasing what is most likely bisexual/pansexual representation. It gets worse when you consider the writers confirming Blake to be bisexual in their notes about the confession scene. Also, this joke was probably unintentional, but the line “but Ren is stonewalling her” at 20:10 is such a funny phrase in this video lol

[@haziqtheunique]

I think what they meant by "It was all planned from the very beginning" is "Arryn & Barbara have _insisted_ on it since the very beginning." Bumblebee just feels like something they just wanted to happen, regardless of how the story got there.

[@ArcangelZion]

Id like to thank you for making this video, as myself have a really hard time being bi as most people around me do not support the LGBTQ community (Making it harder for me to do so as well) and when other people in the LGBTQ community dont see it as "Really queer" it makes everything even harder for me, so thank you again.

[@SaiyanGamer95]

If you want advice (though I highly doubt it's good advice), march to the beat of your own drum. Be your own person and not care about what others say or think. Live your life how you want to.

[@ArcangelZion]

@@SaiyanGamer95 easier said then done my friend

[@MultiBoxingKid]

Wait, Rooster Teeth was saying they planned Bumblebee from the beginning? What an incredibly see through lie.

[@thomasraines1396]

And people buy it.

[@Radiolonestar]

Nah foreal lol I'm pretty sure Blake has spent more time with and has more interaction with Sun than with her whole team combined

[@graegrape]

RT so badly wants to redeem their reputation of writing whatever as they go along by saying "it was planned from the start!!!" like you can't ever fail an arc that was planned from the start. They did it with Bumbleby, they did it with V9's concept, they did it with Ironwood, etc. No idea why people keep buying into it and using it as proof that it is good

[@konstellashon1364]

​@@graegrape exactly! Even if it really was "planned from the beginning" doesn't mean it was executed well.

[@MeemahSN]

@@konstellashon1364 and even if it was planned from the beginning, PLANS CHANGE. Very rarely do you go into a story and come out with the exact same synopsis that you started with. There's a reason every Pixar movie has old storyboards that go in completely different directions than the final product.

[@theresivy]

the formula they have for writing minorities as characters in RWBY is to be one of the below or all of them a) be a background character b) be evil/morally questionable c) literally die somewhere down the line, or in their debut episode

[@anamazinglyy]

Thank you so much for validating my bisexuality and my experience with biphobia. 💗💜💙

[@michawawrzkiewiczmicha7073]

Bumblebee was planned from the beginning in the same way as Palpatine's return in the Disney SW trilogy, i.e. the creators claim that it is so but there is no evidence for it and we even have evidence against it

[@Jeddy027]

Plus, "Planned from the beginning" doesn't mean it's a good plan or handled well. Shitty or poorly handled plans exist. Planned =/= good

[@thomasraines1396]

@@Jeddy027exactly plans can legitimately just be bad.

[@VenathTehN3RD]

Whenever CRWBY says something was "planned from the beginning" I tend to interpret it as "planned" in the sense that they had some vague idea of some barely-brainstormed plot point that they wanted to implement someday, and last week when they were going through an old filing cabinet they found a discarded piece of scrap paper with half a sentence jotted down about it and remembered they wanted to put it in the story. Then they just kind of half-assed a way to implement it into the story from there. Like, I believe that they may have had some vague idea of something they wanted to do way back in the beginning, but I don't believe for an instant that the planning went anywhere beyond "Hey, that sounds cool, maybe we'll work it into the story one day" until the volume where it actually needed to happen.

[@omegaheartless]

It really is the whole "seeing two guys together feels icky, but seeing two women together is fine" kind of mentality, they'll hint at it, tease it, but actively shit on it the moment people get attached to the idea. But Bumbleby? Jaune's sister's family? That'll put butts to seats and it's harrowing that they decide to go in this route because it kind of shows where their priorities lie.

[@dspace4514]

There were more Blacksun interactions than Bumblebee in the first three volumes, not to mention Blake reacts more to Sun's flirting than Yang's. But okay, a lot of things changed afterwards, so perhaps they started planning Bumblebee afterwards? Nope! There are still a lot of Blacksun moments in the next volumes, from Sun literally chases Blake across Remnant to Menagerie because he believes she is going to fight the WF on her own in V4 to Blake kissing him at the beginning of V6. So whoever said Bumblebee was planned from the start was an idiot.

[@samflood5631]

Blacksun is a lot like Touken (Kaneki X Touka) from Tokyo Ghoul, or any straight ships in anime/video games. Both are fan favorite couples that are a cross between a kind heart boy (Sun and Kaneki) and the angsty girl (Blake and Touka). Both Black Sun and Touken get bashed by Yuri/Yaoi shippers and have a hate boner for both Touka and Sun for getting in the way of their precious Yaoi (Kaneki X Hide) and Yuri (Blake x Yang). While Bumblebee became canon due to stupid fan complaints and some death threats, Kaneki and Touka got together as they basically had sex which resulted in her getting pregnant with his kid. Sure some might argue that Touka was sort of rude towards Kaneki when he first joined the cafe and later beat him up for abandoning her, but Touka grew up like any person would and cared about Kaneki’s welfare and being. Blake and Yang on the other hand went through no character development and continued to be unlikeable without learning anything about the consequences of their actions.

[@derrickdaniels3955]

According to an interview with Monty there was intended to LGBT content in the show. Now whether or not Blake and Yang were to be the crux of that content is anyone's guess but im inclined to agree with you and im just an Eclipse stan

[@Appletank8]

The only thing that could make sense is that there's dozens of scenes of Bumblebee that Was Totally Going to Be there but cut for ""budget cuts""

[@griffinbaker3509]

There are a few Bumblebee scenes, I think they couldn't decide for the first 3 volumes and in volumes 4 and 5 it felt like they were going to go with Blacksun, and then they had to remove Sun's screentime because his weapon was hard to animate so I think that was when they decided to go with Bumblebee

[@dracocrusher]

I could be wrong, but wasn't season 6 or 7 when they finally added in new writers? I always assumed that was the deal, that they started out with no plans at all and then new people came in that wanted it to be a thing so they rushed it out and forgot to actually write anything to actually make the relationship feel well built up or earned for a sudden course shift in character dynamics 7 seasons in.

[@BestBetterBestest]

Critter, pointing to Bumbly: This is where I’d put my queer relationship development. Critter: IF I HAD ANY.

[@Blade12113]

I feel the Bisexual erature of this fandom SO hard. I'm not bi myself, I'm Ace but we have the same issue with erasure so I get so mad when people do it. Thanks for making this video and putting it so much more eloquently than I ever could.

[@indigodemipanther739]

I swear Rwby/Roosterteeth constantly screw up with some of its most basic things. I'm not gonna lie though I never noticed how many male x male ships they had compared to female x female or straight ships. Like...really😑

[@SpectreBagels]

How many even are there of legit possible male x male ships that have some backing for the Fandom in the show other than Qrow and Clover? Cause Scarlet wasn't in the show much and didn't have any meaningful or interesting interactions with anyone

[@summerking-wq1sd]

They don’t care for male x male relationships. That’s why the only confirmed gay male characters are characters you’ll never even know were in fact gay unless you went out of your way OUTSIDE of the show to learn it lol. They only push girl on girl because it makes them the most money. Look at BB.. one of the worst written, out of left field relationships and people eat that stuff up.

[@vardiganxpl1698]

@@SpectreBagels Scarlet was only shown gay, and it was only in a short dialogue, in a manga. In one panel or so

[@SpectreBagels]

@@vardiganxpl1698 yea I know, I'm saying that he doesn't have any ships with men cause he wasn't in the show much and didn't interact with anyone to have a possible ship

[@Caleb-VA]

I'd rather good compelling story telling over representation any day. Too bad this is RWBY. A show where two people on the same team can go 7+ seasons with barely any interaction.

[@thomasraines1396]

It’s like a CW show.

[@johnnormington1311]

@@thomasraines1396 So pushing the main characters into extremely toxic relationships while offing/demeaning the characters they had perfectly healthy relationships with?

[@MrTigracho]

You can do both, but that takes a level of skill in writing and knowledge RT lacked. And even then there will be people who may come and say "not good enough"

[@guicaldo7164]

I'm about 2/3rds of the way through the video, and while I agree with the vast majority of things you said, I wanna share my perspective on Clover and Qrow. Because while I understand how people could read something romantic into their dynamic, I have a problem when people say there was _definitely_ something romantic going on. From the perspective of a straight guy, their dynamic is actually a great model for healthy male friendships. Many of the moments that fans point to as proof that Qrow and Clover had feelings for each other are just them being... kind and tender towards one another. Us straight guys already have enough of a hard time figuring out how to be emotionally vulnerable with each other because any display of tenderness or affection is seen as gay. Either "ha, gay!" or "wohoo, gay!", which are _technically_ different sentiments but in practice end up being almost equally as harmful. I can't tell you how long it took for me and my male friends to say "I love you" to each other because every time dudes do it in fiction, the entire fandom decides that they're gay now, and can sometimes be quite hostile when I say "I prefer them as friends". And when it comes to Qrow and Clover, I noticed that a vast majority of the people shipping them seemed to be women - aka people who don't really know or understand male friendships. Which is fine, women can't fully understand male friendships in the same way men can't fully understand female friendships. But it's still part of a trend I'm noticing where healthy male friendships are sexualised by people on the outside, and it's having a tangible negative impact on real-world friendships. So, as much as RWBY dropped the ball on its representation, and as much as it definitely _should_ have included gay male representation, I don't think it's fair nor healthy to decide that Qrow and Clover were _definitely_ meant to have feelings for each other. If you want to read into it, fine, but I for one have zero trouble believing that it was meant to be platonic.

[@MewGirlZ]

I agree with your sentiments here to a T. I think a lot of what people call "toxic masculinity" stems from men not being able to show feelings without being called gay (or maybe weak). You can't be soft, get hurt, show emotion, or be physically affectionate with your peers because it's "not manly;" so a lot of guys (and I know them personally) bury those very human elements of themselves in favor of developing what I refer to as a "man complex." It's a horribly destructive cycle of needing to hide what makes you human, then being told you need to be more open about your feelings, only to then be told "lol, no not like that, that's gay," and ending up at square one hiding certain feelings or healthy behaviors all over again. People need to be allowed to interact with those around them in normal, fun, and caring ways, without others jumping the gun to, "Oh, yes, this is totally romantic/sexy." If you're afraid of your platonic feelings being misconstrued and fetishized constantly, it becomes so hard to show them, and I don't think I need to explain that bottling up and hiding your feelings can take a toll on your mental health regardless of how you identify. Friendships of all sorts need healthy models as much as romantic ones do, and as you said (or implied so tell me if I'm off base) girl and guy relationships don't always make sense to those of the opposite sex--AND THAT IS OKAY! More and more these days I think the idea that romance and sex sell makes the other kinds of love fall to the wayside. Same sex relationships (whether they be romantic or platonic) unfortunately fall the most prey to fetishization and become more and more difficult to portray. Shipping culture (while not always awful) contributes to this feeling that no relationship can be anything outside of intending the characters kiss. I think a thing or two can be said for how platonic relationships between men and women in media could be more properly represented as well. Overall, I think that people NEED to be allowed to interpret undefined relationships differently. Qrow and Clover being a good example. If people like to ship them? Okay. If people want to see them as just good buds, THAT IS ALSO OKAY! Heck, if even Qrow is bi that doesn't mean what he had with Clover couldn't have been just what you said, a great example of platonic male love. It doesn't need to be confirmed one way or another, but people definitely need to be able to look at things differently without being hounded by others in the fandom. RoosterTeeth capitalizing on the rampant shipping culture REALLY doesn't help. It makes it so that they can't commit to anything whichever way. The company is a total mess and they follow the dollar signs more than anything it seems, so they fumble their potential gay (and bi) and platonic representation with stunning lack of self awareness.

[@guicaldo7164]

@@MewGirlZ Thank you, this was very insightful and great to read! What really gets me about this is that this isn't just a problem with conservative spaces. Supposedly the progressive spaces are meant to be a much healthier space for all kinds of people, especially when it comes to combatting toxic masculinity. And for the _most_ part they are. But this is a _massive_ problem that's going completely unaddressed that's harming men in these spaces. Even queer men! One of my closest friends is bi and he struggles with the exact same thing. But you're also completely right that friendships between men and women also need to be portrayed more. There's still this expectation that if a story has a male and female lead, they need to get together by the end, and that one sucks too

[@konstellashon1364]

@@guicaldo7164 don't forget platonic relationships between straight and gay men. No, he's not waiting for someone to pull him out of the closet. Makes me think of Sam/Blaine shippers from Glee. They just missed the point that trying for a healthy friendship was the point of the story arc.

[@paulgibbon5991]

Well said.

[@booperdooper9762]

Yes, I see your points and I support it with love ❤

[@StoogesFan]

People can say "Bumblebee was planned from the beginning" as much as they want, but I'll never believe that. But if this was indeed their "plan from the beginning" then it was a terrible plan lol. Though I'm confident the writers of RWBY were pressured to canonize Bumblebee by the fandom, Barbara, and Arryn who kept teasing the fans constantly.

[@carbodude5414]

I will never get tired of how the "totally planned since the beginning" ship was quickly overshadowed by the Homophobic Ruby memes

[@KritoSkywaker]

Best thing that came out of V9. "Good for you, by the way... We're all SO...HAPPY FOR YOU!"

[@janschievink1586]

The fact that some of the alphabet mafia people actually believe she's a homophobe only makes them funnier.

[@thespy6707]

Yeah I’d never believe it was planned from the beginning. I’ve heard those commentary’s. I mean by that logic, Whiteknight will happen soon and it was always planned because Kara is so into it.

[@madmask7987]

Who knew that putting the girl with abandonment issues and the girl who runs away from everyone without them having at least a couple of serious talks about it would be a good idea, specially after spending like six years on other relationship (No, I don´t believe for one second that BB was planned from the start, anybody with some eyes and not rose-colored-glasses can see it and I will point and laugh at whomever believes so) would be a good idea... who would have thought?

[@itspienoon7883]

I think the female relationships whether romantic or platonic are so hollow and barely planned out in general. There will always be more scenes of Pyrrha with Jaune or Nora with Ren than Pyrrha and Nora ever talking to eachother. Like we have three volumes (2, 4 and 5) of Blake interacting with Sun than we do of Blake interacting with her actual team, y'know team RWBY? The team the show's named after? Also yeah, very weird how Blake and Yang, our main queer characters, were first introduced being ogled at by two older men. Ugh

[@The_Weird_Thingy]

My problem is the built up BlackSun for 3 OR 4 YEARS and where like "oh people want Bumblebee nevermind" Don't get me wrong I love the idea of Bumblebee but the execution was horrible and rushed and really hope they don't continue this with WhiteRose or any other ship honestly. Just give us both straight and queer well thought out and built up relationships instead of some rushed bullshit!

[@YourBoiKirby]

They named one of the only black guys in the entire fucking show Flint Coal. FLINT COAL THATS WHAT THEY NAMED THE ONE BLACK DUDE what the hell do you expect

[@moribundblue926]

As much as I don't like Bumbleby, I hate them essentially being held at gun point to confess. Its giving Nico diAngelo's outing.

[@icecreamchief5417]

I honestly think Blake was at her best when alone with Sun. He pushed her in a way that didn't force her and allowed her to still be her own being, while at the same time was an emotional rock (due to their history together). But then they booted him and RT crammed Bumblebee down our throats. Name me one thing Blake manages to do on her own that isn't hypocritical ("be your own person, Nora" yeah right) once she gets with Yang. Blake is now a sidepiece that needs to be defended because they make her rather timid (for some reason???) with a romance that, not only just started existing, but regressed Blake and Yang. I kinda can't like Blake as she is now because there's nothing there, she is half of bumblebee and _NOTHING ELSE_ ...I don't even want to talk about Yang...

[@hotbitch3978]

It's absolutely important to talk about avoiding bi erasure in these discussions. At the same time, I would like to highlight how their bi identities seem to simply be band-aids for their lack of queer writing (as seen with the example of Blake apparently being long aware of her identity but it not being shown). It would be fantastic if they actually wrote their bi characters properly AND we got some actual homosexual characters who haven't just been given a queer love interest for the sake of appeasing the fans.

[@YouCanCallMeIz]

I think it's important to address that when rwby started, it was like, a bunch of dudes who liked halo and early youtube comedy making it. Acting like anything concerning representation was thoroughly "planned" or even well thought out is laughable. With that in mind, it also makes sense that there's an imbalance especially in the earlier parts of the show- which is also why it's kind of disheartening to see that even though it's a major production claiming to have lots of lgbtq representation, they're not much better than where they started. It just feels a little bit like a lie, if you ask me.

[@giggukardaguy9077]

Don't forget Coco being revealed to be a lesbian that was only revealed in the After the Fall books and one line about breaking girls hearts in Chibi Also the Bi-erasure problem is something I have with the whole making Velma a lesbian when she clearly liked guys before. Every person I talk about this agrees that she should just be Bi and not a lesbian so it makes sense and offers more representation Also a problem I have with the Mindy Kaling Velma cartoon since it acts like being Bi isn't a thing possible

[@scarletempress2652]

When does Velma like guys? The only time I can think of is in Mystery Incorporated with Shaggy, I am fairly sure that was specifically written to be a closeted lesbian in a hetro reationship?

[@giggukardaguy9077]

@@scarletempress2652 She's shown interest in guys in the older movies and in the What's New Scooby Doo cartoon Not to mention the second live action movie

[@KaiserShounen]

18:47 This severely harms their development because the whole theme of their relationship is about the value of communicating your feelings to one another. But how can that happen when the characters suddenly change their mood to fit the scene or come to epiphanies about each other without giving us to chance to have them see it through? Hell character wise, it is very out of character for Blake not to have at least talked to Yang after they got to Argus and apologize for what happened at the barn.

[@TheEmerald97]

This right here hit the nail on the head. I thought Blacksun would be endgame for so long because all Bumblebee was buried in subtext while black sun was text. And this isn't just a problem with their representation with LGBTQIA+ it's also a problem with how they've handled race. They dropped all the white fang stuff and issues faunus face which is meant to parallel real life race issues. Now it doesn't matter at all even though it was a big motivation for Blake and part of her reason to be a huntress.

[@madmask7987]

I think there was an interview with Arryn when she pretty much admitted that despite her preferences, BlackSun was most likely end-game for Blake, and was okay with that... "Planned from the start" my arse.

[@TheEmerald97]

@@madmask7987 I remember how people would flame anyone who liked BlackSun. It was and still is kinda crazy

[@ParagonFury]

I've said it once, I've said it twice, I'll keeping saying it; If you reverse Yang and Sun's genders (which works surprisingly well honestly - you don't even need to change their designs or character all that much. Hell Yang is still Yang since it works as a boy's name and Sun becomes...Sunni?...I guess) then the entire LGBTQ community would be up in arms about BxY as it would be a massive queerbaiting scenario.

[@selena44842]

In a world where shows like The Owl House, Steven Universe, and (despite my feelings toward how it was handled) She-Ra had creators that actively supported and fought to have LGBTQIA+ representation in their works, I believe audiences should not be okay with accepting the bare minimum. Also thank you Critter for addressing the Biphobia and bi erasure problem in both RWBY and in general, it's a problem that's not talked about enough and needs to be brought up more

[@janschievink1586]

I think the amount of representation the writers want is the right amount acting like they're putting in more than they are is what ticks me off.

[@dalek4463]

This is really a problem with RWBY representation in general. Not just with the LGBT community but also stuff like: Race Representation, Female Representation ect ect. Cause RWBY wants to be progressive, but unfortunately it’s stunted because it doesn’t have the balls to commit to one side or the other. The White Fang are the bad bad evil guys but they’re also an oppressed group, that’s… Oddly heroic and it would make for an interesting story, our heroes fighting against what is essentially the scrappy underdog rebellion, it could show that despite being “heroes” there’s still something wrong. It could add nuance… But unfortunately they talk in the evil voice and make the bad laugh. Atlas could have been a morally grey subject matter. Someone made an entire thing about how Atlas could have been something other than “evil general shoots good person because evil.” It could be about something like.. the slow growth of a fascist dictatorship, or militaristic coup, or anything else. But no. We just get a “character goes evil and betrays characters because he was always evil.” And finally we have Bumblebee which.. *makes me sick.* This isn’t a “we’ve made a genuinely cute couple who happen to have feelings that have built up over eight years.” It’s “Look! Gays! Brownie points please?” And as someone who is Bi.. It’s honestly just… despicable. I don’t think Kerry or any of the other writers are to blame, they’re just inexperienced and at best Naive and at worst.. Outright insulting.

[@TamagoSenshi]

The reason May's not in much might have something to do with RT employees' years of bare-faced transphobia

[@demariusmorgan2387]

I'm glad someone finally talked about Nora and Pyrrha's lack of characterization outside of their love interests. I don't hate these characters I just wish they got to develop as individuals like their male counterparts do instead of being one half of a ship. Both of their songs focus exclusively on the their attraction to ren/juane respectively.

[@thomasraines1396]

Pyrrha has more then one song and they’re all focused on Jaune.

[@SimonPetrikov12]

For Nora, this was something she brought up in v7 and distanced herself. Her new song is great too

[@johannesseyfried7933]

I think a user on the forum.....Sufficient Velocity(?) talked about that once, how Pyrrha and Nora don't have much outside of their attraction to Jaune and Ren, referring to them as Titninja 1 and Titninja 2.

[@giovannimorenohernandez4656]

I think the whole problem is that people are obsessed with having a gay couple, specifically bumblebee, in the show the writers clearly didn't intend for it to happen but ended up caving to fan pressure, maybe they thought it would help to save the show which seems to have failed because they didn't build it up because that wasn't the plan and it flat faced upon becoming real. Kind of a toxic cycle being honest.

[@StridingLuna]

Ironically I think I’m one of the few people who don’t consider Bumblebee a slow burn. Also I’m glad someone addressed to the biphobia

[@carlosjimenez4997]

Pretty sure that Half of the chat agrees that Bumblebee was not a slow-burn. they just do it for the money.

[@Fengelo63]

I have never seen RWBY but saw this in my recs so thought why not, I'll watch this. Glad I did, I am forever gonna use "It's not a slow burn if you don't turn the oven on!" That hits so hard, OMG!

[@yourlocalyanfei]

I’m glad you pointed out that there’s only one-ish Male Gay representation, and even then it’s not confirmed. It sounds gross, but I think the reason why Lesbian relationships are more “allowed” in media is for it to be fetishized by gross straight men. Those straight men can’t do that with a Gay male relationship so those relationships aren’t allowed as much or at all by the media. It makes me sick and sad as a gay man myself. I hope this makes sense

[@triggerfairy4070]

Thats probably true.

[@kaialexander6806]

In regards to the biphobia and bisexual erasure within the fandom, I've recently realised that some of it stems from some good old TERFism in the fandom. I don't tend to tread far into the wider fandom, but someone who does had made a post talking about some of the more subtle talking points and it really made me realise how much RWBY as a show attracts that kind of RadFem audience. Obviously, it is billed as a woman-led show with all the girl power the marketing team can muster with a great deal of boosting from a very active FNDM, for lack of a better word, but the actual show is often lacking in the follow-through to those promises which TERFs love for some reason, despite their claims to be feminists. The Maidens are also a massive draw for TERFs because the maiden powers are genderlocked magic powers that can only go to women, and the plot does revolve around them. You often also see the FNDM respond to any form of criticism with baseless claims of misogyny and often you'll get accused of being a straight man, or even a cishet man when the TERFs are laying low, no matter who you are, and again, it's a tell-tale sign of home grown TERFism in your fandom. And TERFism plays into biphobia in a big way because a lot of it is just hating all men because all men are any number of incorrect insults that ironically still get used against queer men today. There's quite a few RWBY fans who will happily admit that they don't care about queer rep for men, just women when it comes to RWBY. It stems from somewhere, and that somewhere is often TERFism which happily preaches that men are inherently evil and violent, and that misogyny is the worst form of oppression you can experience. So you can see why they don't have much room for bi women or pan women or poly women, etc., can't you? We can't possibly have women attracted to men, god forbid that. It must be their _checks Sigmund Freud's notes_ feminine hormones, they're driving them all wild. Apparently feminism got sent back several decades when I wasn't looking. And on that note, you get into yet another misogynistic thing TERFs will say. See, it's just that straight women and queer women (and trans men of course, we can't forget the transphobia) are brainwashed by the patriarchy, and this is where you really get into the biphobia. You're not bisexual, you're just a lesbian who got all confused because of the patriarchy. _Or_ you're not bisexual, you just feel you have to pretend to be attracted to men because of the patriarchy. And so characters who previously showed attraction to men but are now dating women aren't actually bisexual, they're lesbians because they weren't actually attracted to men. Sometimes you'll even notice the notion of the goddamn "Gold Star Lesbian" which is just biphobia in its purest form. I can't recall if TERFs hate aces the way they do bisexuals and trans folks, but if they do, I'd be three for three on things I am that they hate. Probably why that one TERF accused me of being a "traitor to my gender" alongside other less pleasant messages. You'll note the stark amount of autonomy they ascribe to characters and not to the writers who have previously shown themselves to be bigoted in too many ways to count. TERFs count on that because they don't want you thinking critically. Their recruitment tactics don't work if you think too much about their ideology and the things they preach and all the ways over that they're contradicting themselves. A lot of them love that May Marigold is trans because it gives them a shield; I can't possibly be transphobic, look how much I like this show with a trans character in it, now come and let me talk to you about feminism. They only practice what they preach when it comes to real trans people. Because it's us that they really hate and it's us that their ideology is entirely built against. They're bigots who don't want to admit it so instead they twist themselves up in knots thinking of ways trans folks could be dangerous to them, all the while they're just making life actually more dangerous for us. And they've got hooks deep into the FNDM, and that's a partial cause for the biphobia.

[@camnunes8847]

9:37 Oh Critter you missed one, volume 5 had a 2d slide show of Mistral of 2 guys holding eachother and buying stuff. See? A homosexual male couple, super progressive! Edit, just realised yesterday i put "hetero couple" when I meant homo sexual, my bad lol

[@dylanbowers6292]

And by mape, PLEASE tell me you dont mean MAP 😅

[@camnunes8847]

@dylanbowers6292 i meant male I MEANT MALE I HAD A SPELLINH ERROR

[@umbraz2840]

Yeaaaah i dont buy the whole "planned from the beginning" thing for the Bees. Given how much they built up Blake and Sun, even having Sun meet Adam aka Blake's ex in Volume 5 seeming like it should be a big moment Only for the end of Volume 5 and onwards for Blake to basically go "Hey Sun ive just realized my bisexual feelings for Yang and have lost all romantic feelings for you. So uhh, see ya? Imma go follow Yang around like a stray"

[@Celestia368]

Well done on the biphobia section! I've noticed it a lot in the fandom, but no one called them out on it. Whenever someone *did* call them out, they got called homophobic and bigoted. Which is ironically very bitgoted lmao. You explained very well! I honestly didn't realize the show erased the bi representation of Qrow and Clover either! I'm embarrassed didn't think about that implication lol I think having little queer representation in your story isn't a bad thing, even though it is nice to see. My problem with RWBY's is that it promotes itself and very LGBT+ when it's kinda not...

[@justadragonwithinternetacc4505]

When it comes to bi erasure, I might understand where some of it comes from, but that doesn't excuse the practice. Essentially, there is a stigma around bi people, where you shouldn't date a bi person because they will cheat on you, which is incredibly shortsighted and stupid.

[@MangoMagica]

I've been hyperfixated on Bugsnax lately, and this is a game that handles LGBTQ+ characters a million times better than RWBY could ever dream to be. Like, Chandlo and Snorpy don't state their orientations, but it's clear that they love and care about each other, and the way Snorpy confesses his feelings to Chandlo is adorable and funny. Eggabell and Lizbert are also a WLW couple but they aren't on screen as much. However, it's clear they love each other and it shows the trouble with having a partner with mental health issues. They're very cute together too! Or with Floofty, they are non-binary but it's never outright stated. The characters still refer to them as "they/them" or "my sibling", even when they're a condescending bitch to most other characters, because they're still a person (grumpus?) that deserves that basic form of respect, and I think that's really great. Plus I think it's an ingenious design choice to have the enby character be primarily purple, white, black and yellow!

[@thejudgmentalcritter6584]

Bugsnax is such an amazing game! I love very character so much.

[@MangoMagica]

@@thejudgmentalcritter6584 Awesome! I love the characters dearly too

[@ImDudeRandom90]

YES. THANK YOU. Bugsnax is a perfect example of well implemented and handled LGBTQ+ characters.

[@MangoMagica]

@@ImDudeRandom90 Yeah, like I personally see myself in Floofty A LOT. Not even just because they're nonbinary but also because of how well they're written too!

[@booperdooper9762]

I will check that out

[@wazzupyuwu]

speaking personally, i don't really have too much of a problem with people who view yang as lesbian. compulsory heterosexuality is a real thing that many, many queer folk (including myself) have gone through, and i'm sure many lesbians who have dealt with it identify with yang and view her in a similar light. my issue is when people don't ever address yang's initial perceived attraction to men. like, yeah it's very early on and it only happens twice, but it still HAPPENS and it feels weird to pretend it didn't.

[@madamaonyx8844]

It's the Bisexual Curse. Both sides like to ignore the fact the we like both and only want to acknowledge us when we swing in their direction.

[@janschievink1586]

It sucks that you went through that it sucks that people have to go through that in general. I'm happy with people Head-Cannoning that stuff and writing them as lesbians in fan-fiction but acting like there interpretation of Canon events is more valid than others is rather scummy especially when bisexuality arguably explains Yang's motivations better than closet lesbian does.

[@neonstarch3210]

The thing that annoys me about bumblebee is that they could have so easily made it felt built up to by just not having Sun. Think about it. All of the scenes with Sun now are basically pointless as his and Blake's relationship amounts to nothing. If Yang was used instead of Sun in instances like Blake running away after outing herself as a former White Fang member and following Blake on her investigation to rally, it would have made it easier to set up them becoming a couple. Volumes 1-3 could have been them beginning to feel something, 4-6 would be a major bump in the road with Blake abandoning Yang, and 7-9 could have been the rekindling and them actually getting together. But nope, we spend five volumes with one guy, making us believe he's end game, only for him to be forgotten about (after an in-universe day) and have this new relationship come by immediately after.

[@cognus3372]

I'm not a huge fan of bumblebee but I think it's fine for Blake to like Sun as well. There was setup for bumblebee from S2 onward afaik. Sun was being a great friend and having flirty scenes does not make a relationship required

[@darkimp22]

I know! I Ship Blake and Yang but feels weird because what about Sun? He was there and a lot of work and now feel like nothing or how Blake gonna tell SUN! I kinda want them to be in a throuple because he was a great guy and Blake does lioke him. Or maybe she says to him gently and sun says" I like us to still be friends but I don't want to see you for awhile." Feeling heart broken and would be understandable and awkward and don't want to see that but it might happen and hope it not so bad.

[@pessimisticzinogre6429]

Celtic Pheonix did exactly that with his rewrite. He saved suns introduction to volume 2 and had his role filled in by yang

[@zachall1573]

I think REBY is facinating honestly. We get to see what happens when complete ameture writers are given the chance to write a wole, semi-serious, long-form story. What tropes do they fall back on? Where do most of their inspirations come from? What pitfalls do they fall into the most? How do they handle sensetive subjects, or how exactly do they fumble so badly? I'm not kidding you could write pages of analysis based off this show under the lense of analysing ameture writing.

[@GeneralBolas]

CRWBY's writing has many of the hallmarks associated with fanfiction. Payoffs without proper setup, setup for things that never get paid off, ignoring the obvious consequences of various moments, reactionary writing based on unexpected interpretations of one's work (see: Ironwood v8, but also the Faunus and v1 Weiss), creating new characters to focus on while ignoring your current ones, etc. The thing that irritates me the most about it is that... they keep making the same mistakes. Every writer does these things their first time out. But good writers grow out of it. These writers genuinely don't seem like they are aware that these things are *flaws* and that they should try to overcome them. And then they wrote v9 as basically a love letter to themselves: "I love you, just the way you are," is the message, and it's telling that one can easily apply that to how they see themselves.

[@samflood5631]

REBY? Don’t you mean RWBY?

[@Appletank8]

They keep telling themselves they've nailed it, when they keep making the same mistakes over and over again. Bad pacing, inconsistent themes, setups and payoffs being disconnected, suicide????, overestimating how much time and money they have and wasting it on too long-scripts just sitting around.

[@MeemahSN]

@@Appletank8 The amount of things they introduce and then never flesh-out, it's insulting. Sweeping yet another really important aspect to a major character's arc under the rug? Yeah, no. These "writers" will never change.

[@honeylemon237]

As an og Blacksun shipper I used to be upset at the sudden Bumblebee, I kinda just felt like it came out of nowhere, and yeah looking back it kind of did. I think Bumblebee can be cute, but I kind of felt nothing seeing them kiss. Sun and Blake at least had open flirting from the beginning that made me attached. (Could also be because I love Sun and I just wish he was on screen more as to why I liked that ship lol)

[@r.babylon2885]

I would've really enjoyed seeing Blake struggle between her loyalty to Sun and her growing feelings to Yang. I think Sun's outro could/should have been simply stepping aside at a point. But then, RWBY has a lot of "I wish this or that happened"

[@MrTigracho]

Or we could have also enjoyed some romantic triangule drama. It would have been spicy, and the fandom may as well gone even more radioactive than ever, but at least the drama would been interesting.

[@spencermalley10]

God I want Sun to have a better ending than "does unfunny RWBY Chibi schtick with fuckboi Millhouse forever".

[@bingbong8239]

​@@MrTigracho Blake has two hands

[@linksstruepower7443]

My discovery of my own Bisexuality was neither memorable nor interesting. I just noticed I was looking at someone of the same sex a bit longer and thought " That's new." In my opinion, being Bisexual is NOT anything interesting. It just one more bullet point in the list that makes up who I am. I don't want to be put up on a pedestal, but the fact that media consistently fails to acknowledge what Bi even is annoys me to no end

[@troperhghar9898]

The diffrence between represention and tokenism is "are you going to do anything with this?"

[@janschievink1586]

So I should only make the main characters in my stories gay that's kind of what it sounds like you're saying?

[@booperdooper9762]

​@@janschievink1586Lmao how did you misread so badly

[@janschievink1586]

@@booperdooper9762 The answer is 15 other comments that day mind your damn business.

[@janschievink1586]

@@booperdooper9762 Actually I didn't misread this my comment fails to properly communicate my point. What I was intending to communicate is due to background or even supporting characters being static by the logic @troperhghar9898 presented it'll come off as tokenism with any homosexual character who isn't in the main cast because of lack of character development simply for no other reason then their position in the story.

[@Aerafuz]

That planned from the beginning ordeal just reminds me of Naruto and the whole NaruHina pairing. Full stop, the author claimed in one interview they were planned midway into the story, then at the start of the time skip, then from the beginning. Oh sure, there's a sketch of the girl clearly showing she was planned to be a character before it started, but it was never stated she was planned to be the main character's wife or anything, he was just in the background of the sketch. And by the time she actually appeared in the story, she was relegated to being a background character. Her big moment was the fact that in her fight with her cousin, she was said to be a failure, to set the cousin up as the bad guy for her future husband to beat. And once the cousin was beaten, you realize he was the victim all along due to their family's broken caste system, as the cousin was meant to be the girl's slave and die for her, and he hated that destiny. And then the author sets up a moment for the cousin to die for the girl, because the girl tried to shield a deadly attack aiming towards the hero. Cousin's destiny is to die for the girl, and he does it, because the author said he wanted to make a moment for the Girl and Hero when he had so many opportunities to do so, yet sat around and did nothing, even made the Hero flirt with and be interested in the main girl. Oh but then they made a movie where they neglect everything to have it so by connecting the Hero to the Girl with a scarf in magic water, that he realized he's loved her all along, even when she did absolutely nothing since her cousin's death to show her interest in the Hero. The Cousin sacrificed himself for nothing other than be the pun they would base their son's name around.

[@JohnMasterCheif]

I’d say also the Bee ship makes talking about Adam nearly impossible. Like, I don’t think he and Blake had any sort of romantic relationship, but she clearly did look up to him and held him in high regard. But then they suddenly have him go on this incel arc and ruined any potential he could’ve had at being a viable antagonist, since racism was one of the things the show kept saying was still going on.

[@skysiren4113]

I'm really glad you brought up how RoosterTeeth after Bumbleby was confirmed they tried to cash in on it as much as they could with their merch. I noticed them doing this with not just them, but with Penny, May, Ilia and Clover after their deaths and or them being confirmed being LGBTQ respectfully. I find it especially gross knowing how RoosterTeeth treated their employees that were part of the LGBTQ community (just look at how they treated Kdin Jenzen for example) it's really scummy to me that RoosterTeeth claims to be supportive of the LGBTQ community only to not only have surface level representation, sell overpriced merch of said characters after they come out, but also treat employees from said community they supposedly support like garbage and do nothing to actually help them

[@JonborgVA]

I do feel bad for the Sun and Blake fans as they were really teased LOL

[@waterdog737]

I'm pressing F for doubt for Blake and Yang's relationship from the start. The ship now feels so fan servicy than a complete legit one. I do wished that bubblebee had proper progression than everything, instead of everything jump started in vol 9. While getting hints before then. This ship is way too shallow, and I feel like they would break up after the story ends in 1 to 3 years' time.

[@My2Cents.iF7934]

As I stated in the community post, canon ships in the vein of Bumblebee were made to appease the queer shipping-brain viewership of RWBY and nothing more. It became profitable for characters to be gay, and so RT capitalized on that. Did Blake and Yang ever have a direct dynamic in the earlier parts of the show? No, at least not from what I can remember. Not that it's necessarily a bad thing; everyone was sorta going through their own arcs, there wasn't a whole lotta time in between that for characters to hang out like friends rather than like coworkers. I get it. But RT had been setting up (quite visibly) the Black Sun ship for FOUR STRAIGHT FUCKING SEASONS! They had their own dynamic, and as you showed, Blake blushed when Sun flirted with her on multiple occasions! And as a bisexual dude, I was rooting for them! Quite genuinely! Because their dynamic was cool! And it was kind of clear that Blake reciprocated those feelings that Sun had for her! And then, when the political climate changes in 2016-2017 and people become more vocal about wanting to see two women of similar build in the same room together, the writers throw that dynamic and those feelings into the fucking toilet. As a fanfiction writer myself (currently writing a Persona 4 Arena fanfiction, please check me out on AO3 (yes this is totally shameless self-advertisment)), this is the type of poorly-handled writing that gives me fucking nightmares. Don't get me wrong, I LOVE to see some queer-coded relationships (Yukiko and Chie, or Kanji and Naoto (which is a WHOLE ASS can of worms I don't wanna open right now) all four of whom are Persona 4 characters, all of whom can be very easily interpreted as being compulsory-heterosexual teens in 2011), but when you shove together two characters without a lot of rapport together like a 6 year old with Barbie dolls and action figures and making the two kiss (when you're a showrunner), it just feels like... I don't wanna sound like I'm copying the other guy, but there's really no other word for it: Rainbow Corporatism. We're being used as a selling point of a show, and not as actual human beings with lives and dreams. As EQUALS. And it makes me sick.

[@Draiocht012]

You talking about the fandom actively defending the poor rep reminds me of Legend of Korra, the only show I've ever seen that gets so much credit for gay rep despite having not a single gay scene in the entire show.

[@thomasraines1396]

Didn’t Korra and Asami (I think that’s her name) kiss as the very, very last scene of the show?

[@Draiocht012]

@@thomasraines1396 Nope, in the last few seconds of the show they held hands, walked into a portal, and looked into each other's eyes, and that's as close as we got.

[@vulpiixfoxx]

To be fair, unlike RWBY, Legend of Korra didn’t exactly have the freedom to show queer couples so they just kinda had to make it implied and then confirm it after the show ended

[@Draiocht012]

@@vulpiixfoxx Everyone says this as if it's a legitimate defense but at the end of the day the result is the same. There is no queer rep in Korra yet many of the fans hail it as amazing queer rep regardless of that fact.

[@vulpiixfoxx]

⁠@@Draiocht012 I mean I never said the queer rep in LoK was amazing, I was just saying that unlike RWBY LoK at least has an excuse as to why it doesn’t have any queer rep in the show itself. RWBY, on the other hand, doesn’t.

[@Paildra91]

Finally, someone else says that Bumblebee was both rushed and dragged out at the same time! I've felt the exact same way for years! Even if it was planned from the beginning, the show did a terrible job executing this so called "plan".

[@CloudyDaze]

You're really brave for pointing this out. We deserve better and SHOULD be allowed to voice we deserve better.

[@SaiyanGamer95]

i always felt Blake and Sun had a better relationship. If they became a couple, it would have felt earned, due to their interactions; Sun was there with Blake was at her lowest point and supported her. By the time she reunited with Yang, she was pretty much back to where she was. Yang was basically on her own at her lowest point. The only wound they healed together was dealing with Adam. Granted, I do think Black and Yang is a cute couple, but it doesn't exactly feel earned. At the Beacon Days, anything even vaguely romantic Blake was doing was with Sun; she convinced him to go to the dance (Yang got first dance, but switched with Sun), that blush when he pointed to her at the tournament, and probably one or two others that escape me. As for the "planned from the beginning", I myself tend to use that when people criticize Bumblebee, but that isn't to say I blindly believe it. At most, I'm suspicious, but want to give RT the benefit of the doubt. At the end of the day, they have the notes, ideas, whatever. We, the viewers are only seeing the end result, so we don't know if they're truthful or not. Hell, for all we know, Monty's notes really could have Blake and Yang becoming a couple, we don't know! Oh!! I also just remembered something about the LGBT flirting! It is incredibly minor, though, and very unimportant. In the tournament, when Team SSSN were fighting Team NDGO, you can see a male audience member holding a sign for Scarlet, covered in hearts.

[@skyslasher2297]

8:45 not her whole personality since there’s traits like her high energy head headedness and preference for extreme solutions to problems (“let’s break his legs” anyone) more so all her wants and motivation revolves around Ren.

[@thomasraines1396]

Exactly I don’t know where her little “arc” came from. Ren is her best friend yeah but earlier she didn’t seem completely dependent on him to function.

[@The_Hush_Dragon]

​@@thomasraines1396 I think it's more along the lines of what she has an interest in besides Ren. The only thing we see her have actual interest in that doesn't revolve around him is those headphones we never see again, sweet things, pancakes, and fighting.

[@KaiserShounen]

15:16 Well except in v5 and 6 where they'd didn't even let us explore how their dynamic changed AFTER becoming a couple. We just kinda ignore them until v7 happened. But fuck at least things progressed and you can MAYBE argue that it makes sense given their character status.

[@ImDudeRandom90]

I've seen RWBY fanatics claim that Bumblebee is the gold standard of wlw relationships in media. And I'm like... Have y'all motherfuckers watched ANYTHING outside of RWBY?

[@unknown-iy2we]

Of course not

[@Axel_Kasai]

It's funny that bumblebee couldn't even reach korrasami 😂

[@madmask7987]

Obviously no

[@KritoSkywaker]

Obviously did not. They rather ate up everything, that RT has said and stated.

[@serafine666]

As someone with a friend that I think very well of who is pansexual and married to a guy, I vibe heavily with your discussion about pan and bi erasure and discrimination. This is especially egregious as people studying human sexuakity have realized that there is a lot of space between the homo and hetero poles and people occupy every inch of it from super-straight to flaming gay... and it's all valid and OK. Also, my ship was always Ruby x Weiss (I forget the fandom name for it) because battleskirts are cool.

[@Homururu]

RT really went up and said "The only thing we needed for these characters to confess to each other was the threat of LITERAL DEATH!" Genius! This kinda reminds me of that one comment Twiins made about RWBY's nsfw subreddit being far more active than the actual show's sub. It's increasingly clear that this is the direction the show's taken; not one of representation or progression, but one of thirst trapping and appealing to a major male audience with limited female contact. A shame, really, because the show REALLY started off as one that empowered women to be just and strong and even STRONGER than men. It should've been a show about the impact women can have on the world. Instead, we get... Whatever this is. With its absolute biggest selling point being two bisexual women finally confessing their love to each other only because they're practically at gunpoint... Yeah, idk. Really, the point you made about being no queer male characters (I GUESS Scarlet counts, even though he has no dialogue in the show proper) just put it into perspective for me. As a gay identifying man, I feel extremely disappointed. The worst part to me is, and this is by no means an attack against bisexual people, is the fact that Blake and Yang's (very valid) bisexuality seems like an excuse for males to still feel attracted to a work of fiction that they could "have a chance with" because they're attracted to both sexes. And then other dumbasses just want to straight up categorize them as lesbians! Give the bis a break.

[@janschievink1586]

Any grand aspirations of female empowerment you think the show had are in your head it was a cute girl fighting show made by a male animation nerd. "an excuse for males to still feel attracted to a work of fiction that they could "have a chance with" because they're attracted to both sexes." I've addressed the Kink Shaming and the Breeder Bashing twice already in this comment section so I'll keep this short and just say the contempt is mutual.

[@Ghost77210]

I ship bumblebee the same way I watch rwby, with great difficulty and angst despite never actually dropping it

[@SpectreBagels]

.......I'm sorry

[@listening...-xr1kx]

You and me both dare I say my outlook on it may be a tad more severe 💀

[@janschievink1586]

Same

[@SaltyPecan]

I definitely agree with the whole slow burn point for both Blake/Yang and Nora/Ren. I think it is important to note that Ren and Nora did know each other since childhood and Blake and Yang met on screen. The only thing with Blake/Yang is that it definitely felt a little forced at some points? It might just be me since I’m picky with romance. I’m fine with organic changes but it did throw me in a loop with Blake seeming to go from really being into Sun then suddenly into Yang. And I definitely wish we got more bonding between RWBY. It feels like with shipping of White Rose and Bumblebee we didn’t get much of the base team building. Is that just me?

[@SaltyPecan]

Thinking about it again, it make me appreciate Clarke and Lexa in the 100 more and how Clarke and her relationships were handled. (Except for towards the ending, if you know you know)

[@krysslucario9478]

Just to echo the thoughts in the MLM part, I’ve been wanting to say this for a while but obviously terrified of the fandom, I didn’t want to. But this feels safe lol. I think my biggest issue for the show was about mlm representation. Think about how many CANON wlw’s are in the show. Jaune’s sister and her wife, Ilia, now Blake and Yang. Where are the CANON queer men/male presenting characters? Scarlet from Team SSSN? Iirc, he's the only canon one and even then it wasn’t addressed in the show, but in the manga. Blink and you miss it type shit, you know? Can you really call it **good** representation at that point? OFC, maybe it’s a little unrealistic that a show represents every letter of the LGBTQ+ community, but I feel like if you can make good WLW representation, why is MLM so scarce in the show? It always made me feel awkward, almost fetishized, even as a bisexual woman myself because of the lack of MLM when the show is written by men. (Lemme make it clear, in no way am suggesting CRWBY is fetishizing WLW relationships. But it is a little strange to me that they never write a true wholesome male love story. Especially with RT getting called out by their OWN LGBTQ STAFF for being homophobic/transphobic) but yeah, I’m glad someone brought up how queer men is soo rare in the show, if any at all. Amazing video!

[@janschievink1586]

They should have had Pilot Boy live and talk about his husband & kids in between/as part of him & Weiss's Luke & Han style relationship. I don't think I'm ever getting off my soapbox about this, sorry for the sheer amount of "and/&" in the above sentence.

[@JaredTVW]

But wait, you forgot the first real gay couple, those two background characters from the beginning of Volume 5. The couple of guys wearing pink, holding a plant that shapes a heart while they both are looking at each other and holding one another in a “bro embrace” Edit: they aren’t wearing pink but yeah, that’s the real first “gay couple”

[@samuelclayhills3298]

12 years in the making fellas. Bravo Vince. You know this "fandom" is beyond saving when the accepted this. This most be cope realizing that they just waisted 10+ years of their lives. And its not like it was good in the begining but at least it had heart and Montys passion. Maybe things could have been diffrent maybe not story wise because I doubt that but maybe someone would have given an ounce of a shit about the writing. Or hell maybe this should not have a big plot because they clearly can't write for shit.

[@teoch5217]

RWBy's whole problem is not that he has LGBT relationships, but that his relationships are poorly managed. Yang and Blake's relationship is so poorly written that it ruins the characters. If they suddenly make Weiss x Ruby again, the laziness of writing will ruin this relationship. A relationship between partners on the same team is lazy writing. There are Weiss x Ruby storylines in the manga and they look much better and more authentic. But it's still a show about friendship. Good friends don't have to go to bed together. And it's been overused in many shows lately. RWBY also has extremely poorly written young male characters. We have Jaune and the rest. Ren and Nora are practically one character. For a while, Sun and Neptune seemed to join the team, but eventually dropped out.

[@graegrape]

hey critter, thanks for this video. I've always felt a little odd about the representation of LGBT people and the obvious marketing around it. I think RT has a Huge problem with any kind of minority representation. The LGBT experience of life is fundementally different from the straight experience - and I don't think the (presumably) straight writers really understand how to build a relationship between two queer characters - hell, even building a relationship between two characters who are equal. I've never liked luckycharms all that much, but there was a clear start there - any good romance starts from friendship, and B/Y doesn't work because none of RWBY really feels like friends. As for representation in general - I'm disabled, and CRWBY has been doing a really bad job representing disability IMO. It's always off with their minority rep, and I don't really get why. I think they're trying to be progressive while failing to understand what it means. Love the video as always. keep up the good work & i'm excited for your further media analysis videos!

[@Gwen1661]

Bi-erasure (as well as the erasure of pansexual, asexual and other sexualities that aren't gay or lesbian) is a big problem in fandom from a lot of LGBTQ+ people and it fucking sucks. It's not just the RWBY fandom, it happens in a lot of freaking fandoms and it's sad

[@insomniacnerd5592]

I honestly feel like the people who religiously defend this ship to the point of calling any who say anything negative bigoted has this as one of their first, if not their actual first, shows they watched where some of the characters had the sexual identity they have. I feel bad. There’s other examples that are much better built up and explored, rather than this halfhearted, sloppy attempt that feels exploitative at worst.