RWBY Villains : Motivation & Development

[@arkhamjamesv]

It's hilarious how Roman has been out of the equation for 5 volumes now, and he's still the most fleshed out of all the villains.

[@RoronoaZoro-ur6hr]

The voice actor of Adam, Watts, Hazel, and Roman quit working for RoosterTeeth for good, and the voice actress that played Penny quit too hence why they don’t have different voice actors like how Ozpin and Qrow does.

[@sweetoil2952]

@@RoronoaZoro-ur6hr Wait…Ozpin’s voice actor changed?… D:>

[@RoronoaZoro-ur6hr]

@@sweetoil2952 , Monty Oum was the voice actor of Ozpin from Volumes 1 through 3, and after his death he was replaced by a different voice actor that plays him in Volumes 4 onwards.

[@sweetoil2952]

@@RoronoaZoro-ur6hr Wow, somehow all this time I didn’t know he played Ren AND Ozpin 😧

[@VenathTehN3RD]

@@RoronoaZoro-ur6hr Um...what? Shannon McCormick has always voiced Ozpin. The only character Monty voiced was Ren. Also, of the five characters you referenced (Adam, Watts, Hazel, Roman, Penny), from what I've seen the only VAs that have quit are Gray Haddock (Roman) and Taylor McNee (Penny). As far as I can tell Garrett Hunter (Adam) and Will Orendorff (Hazel) are still working for them. I don't think Chris Sabat is with them anymore, but he was only ever signed on to play Watts (who is now...you know...dead) to begin with, rather than being a member of RT who was chosen to voice a character. So it's likely not a matter of him "quitting" any more than it ever is when a character he's voicing is no longer on the show. Where are you getting this info exactly?

[@joerogers9413]

Emerald: Wait.... Salem is evil? Then why are you working for her? Mercury: Because she's paying me a fortune! Emerald: You're getting paid?

[@nikeiyomiuri2728]

This feels like a chibi skit

[@joerogers9413]

😆 Yeah, it does, doesn't it. : )

[@thefunnynamehere266]

“Time and a half to the hour, and time and a half and a half to the next hour”

[@thomasraines1396]

You come to find out she’s paying him with counterfeit money.

[@joerogers9413]

@@thomasraines1396 😆

[@goldstarforkathyparr7720]

"The most she has done is drive the mini-van to drop off her annoying kids at Atlas" I am deceased 💀

[@TitanXecutor]

Sums it up perfectly

[@MisteRRYouTuby]

We mourn your passing.

[@malcolmeharveste9028]

The reason they stick around is obvious she has the best strudel recipe in all the kingdoms its almost magical.

[@DrBlakenstein]

She has CENTURIES worth of time to perfect the recipe.

[@infiniteregrets2701]

omg yeah it really fits in her theme as the witch from hansel and gretel /j

[@SporkSlayer]

I'll join Salem if I can get a taste of that strudel.

[@doginabox9621]

It’s probably GODLY

[@mnmnotaskittleindisguise1939]

LMFOA

[@devildolphin2102]

I still can’t get over Emerald. She literally Says she is changing Sides to the Winning team. And RWBY and Jaune are just like LMAO we forgive you for Helping kill Pyrrha, Penny and Thousands of Vale Citizens. Ahhhhh. The writing is so Milktoast I mean Emeralds “Redemption” should have been a Big deal but they just Bring it up out of nowhere.

[@romulusnuma116]

And it didn't even seem like the winning side was her motivation she just liked Cinder but then for no reason betrays the side that she knows Cinder is loyal too??????????

[@devildolphin2102]

@@romulusnuma116 Yeah. They don’t actually Go into that. I mean Cinder is literally like 3 blocks away and the super Loyal Emerald dosent run or try and find her. How much character progression did we skip to get to the point where emerald dosent care about Cinder.

[@romulusnuma116]

@@devildolphin2102 Not to mention there wasn't a part when Her and Cinder get a scene together after Emerald which sides and we probably won't for a few years and they'll justify her leaving then by her now being a completely different character now.

[@devildolphin2102]

@@romulusnuma116 Oh god your right. I mean the Finale of Vol 8 where everyone is together should have had Emerald Choose between RWBY or Cinder and get some character Development. But no we just ignore it so we can have lame fight scene #23. I don’t get it. Like basic Fanfiction authors do better story telling most of the time.

[@RohitSharma-vj1sw]

Personally I think only villains who somewhat deserved a chance to be redeemed were Adam and mercury.

[@nintendolife25]

Salem wins in volume 8 by doing absolutely nothing. Luigi: Finally, a worthy opponent. Our battle will be legendary!

[@lilyovalle7254]

*They both sit and do nothing*

[@stubetsgamer8288]

@@lilyovalle7254 *Damm, Look at them they are complete Equals*

[@georgemeyers7172]

That's hilarious. The only difference between these two is that the whole Luigi doing Nothing thing came from a joke. It was unintentional by Nintendo's part but came up because a KZbinr bascially made a Whole Series where they looked to see what Minigames Luigi could win by doing basically nothing. Salem? She's supposed to do something... yet doesn't.

[@thomasraines1396]

I saw a pretty humorous theory that Salem is just extremely lazy due to her immortality, which is why she doesn’t really do anything and instead pushes it off to the help.

[@RohitSharma-vj1sw]

There was no reason to turn her into an immortal witch. Also this theory do make a lot of sense.

[@TheBatbike]

That theory is canon for me now

[@thomasraines1396]

@@RohitSharma-vj1sw her immortality the cause of her laziness.

[@DatCameraMON]

This theory reminds me of Coeur Al'Aran plot. TBH, he does a better job with the characters and plot of RWBY than the writers.

[@RohitSharma-vj1sw]

@@DatCameraMON for some reason most of his work is centered around Jaune. I personally want fanfiction writers to focus on characters like 'lie ren' and 'Adam Taurus'.

[@tacohashi924]

"No kingdoms, no huntsman academies" Lowkey getting a Zaheer vibe from that chief

[@Mr.EintheMorning]

That would be an interesting post-Salem antagonist to contrast with her.

[@erickamakeeaina1649]

The difference is that Zaheer wanted to tear down govermants so there would be none at all, everyone could just be free, Hazel is more 'New World order'

[@noctisastrum7495]

It really sucks hazel and ruby never talked to each other it would have been interesting to see them argue about there their different view points on huntsman especially since they both lost someone due to being a huntsman, heck yang can add on to this

[@tacohashi924]

They missed the opportunity to make Yang the Unstoppable Force to Hazel's Immovable Object.

[@Spitfire_94]

Makes sense, a lot of RWBY is just Avatar ideas.

[@bobi200samatar6]

Watts just hurts man. This guy was perfectly poised to be the main threat of Atlas. His position and attitude towards Atlas, and connection to Jaque would have made him a great rival to Weiss and Blake specifically. He was dripping in charisma, genuine charm and not just snark. The fact that the main heroes never even met him or had any opinions on him is insane, what were they thinking killing him off when he was in his prime? In a better show, that can only exist in my mind, Watts follows Salem because she's a window to a time that No one alive has ever known about. He follows her so she can drip feed him info about the first run of humanity and he diligently studies what Salem's magic can do, hoping to create a sort of powerful magic-run technology that he can then rub in Atlas' collective face. He may or may not know what Salem's actual goal is, but I don't think it would change too much. Unfortunately this isn't the show we got.

[@rosesongoku6980]

For some reason they believe that Cinder killing him will make us take her more seriously. Nope. She didn’t get smart, he got dumbed down, just like everyone else who crosses paths with her.

[@kanekikingstorm2113]

Sounds like he'd be a better done dr. Gero

[@KikiCatMeow]

@@rosesongoku6980 not to mention, Cinder killing Watts would hardly leave an impact even if he wasn’t dumbed down. Since she’s a maiden already, her killing Watts isn’t too shocking since she could realistically kill whoever she wanted with ease, outside of the other maidens, Salem and Ruby (and Ruby only because of her auto win-condition). That coupled with it directly contradicting the “development” Cinder got on that roof scene, and her killing Watts is overall just such a horrible idea

[@HeriticalRoomba]

Lets not forget Adams story(If written well) could've ended in Atlas trying to kill Weiss and her family.

[@bobi200samatar6]

@@HeriticalRoomba Don't get me started on Adam. The fact Weiss never even saw him is ridiculous.

[@KingGF07]

Team WTCH should have been all female dark reflections of team RWBY. Cinder as a reflection of Ruby, female Tyrian as a reflection of Blake, female Dr Watts as a reflection of Weiss, female Hazel as a reflection of Yang. Each competing with Ozpin’s forces and each other for the maiden powers.

[@ayal92]

I wonder how the writing process went. I understand they didn't come up with the maidens until vol 3 and they probably came up with the council before...but after vol 3 they only had to make the characters female, it's not like their gender matters in the story.

[@skrrtskrrt4681]

I think them making the other villains men was a response to the "show has too much female characters" rants back in volume 3, everyone was yapping abt it on tumblr, or at least the people i follow were.

[@alexhussinger3550]

If I had to guess, the reason they didn't was that they wanted Cinder to be going for getting all the Maiden powers, when a full-female WTCH would have heavily implied that they'd each be getting one, even in-universe. I don't think giving RWBY all Maiden powers was a thing, and setting up the story that way would have pulled them in that direction. To be honest, if Salem just wants the relics, there's no real reason to keep all the maidens on hand if she just needs them to basically unlock a door for her. The original agreement with Raven in Vol 5 would have been perfectly fine for Salem (from our limited understanding of her motives)--she doesn't need them all at once to do a mega fusion dance or the like. But yeah, having them as dark reflections of the main cast, especially as dark reflections of the relevant fairy tales, would have been a really solid character basis. Fem-Tyrian is an outwardly polite and social serial killer, who relishes in embracing her inner bestial nature in vicious and bloody kills. Fem-Watts is/was an Atlas Socialite skilled in political manipulation, blackmail, and courtly intrigue, who is comparatively weak in direct combat (possibly even keeping the technophile themes, since Atlas). Fem-Hazel is harder, since Goldilocks is already the villain of her fairy tale, but honestly Yang pulls so little from that anyway beyond the golden hair that you could get away with having her just be a vicious brute with serious anger issues.

[@seasustrai6547]

But then the show would have to redeem them all! Tbs that sounds like fantastic idea that I'm going to mourn from now on, fem Hazel would've looked amazing

[@nujuat]

I only just realised that they were called team WTCH - wow

[@ohmichael1348]

why roman was a good villain aside from character design. because he is a bad guy that does bad things in order to survive with neo in the crime world. simple, but easily understandable. suits well with his mafia gangster style design as well.

[@thomasraines1396]

Hell he was literally a cigar smoking gangster, he wasn’t complex but it was the fact he was so unapologetically hammy is what made him enjoyable.

[@GoodNeutralEvilChaos]

Wish they went the Celtic Phoenix path and had Ozma bond him. He hates hit and is forced to worked with RWBY, it's brilliant.

[@thomasraines1396]

@@GoodNeutralEvilChaos it’s great.

[@ayal92]

And more importantly, he actually does shit and fights the main characters on his own volition.

[@Blizz3112]

Sometimes smaller... is better...

[@NotSpecialDude]

I think the problem with Salem is that she's written like original trilogy palpatine, but has too many scenes. Palpatine was always present in the original Star wars trilogy and was the "Bigger Bad" but his purpose was mostly to be the boss for the actual villain of the films Darth Vader. It was Vader that did most of the work, it was Vader the other admirals were reacting too, and it was Vader that was carrying the villain presence of the show. When Palpatine did show up, it was in the finale. They could have done the same thing here. Have Salem be this nebulous force only Cinder follows. The rest of the villains being there because of Cinder, which would justify their differing objectives. Cinder played this role in volumes 1-3, but then Salem showed up who then preceded to do nothing. If they wanted to show Salem, they could have. Have her give brief conversations with Cinder, maybe have her create a grim or two to help Cinder's current plan. My point, is that Salem is clearly meant to be a final boss, and the writers want to keep close to their chest everything about her so that she could still function as one. But because she has a constant presence, it wears on the audience just how much nothing she's doing.

[@nintendolife25]

True. Palpatine is always presented this hidden figure and we know how powerful Vader is,m. So the fact a successful villain still follows order from Palpatine makes him truly frightening. Not with Salem and Cinder. After vol 4, Cinder ALWAYS gets her smug ass kicked and constantly disobeys orders. And what does Salem do? Absolutely jack s**t despite constantly being flashed onscreen like a pair of keys. What’s to fear from a lady who keeps a disobedient joke?

[@KikiCatMeow]

The worst part is that pretty much nothing changes if Salem wasn’t there constantly, so there’s very little debate for why she should be. Volumes 1-7 climax were all her lackeys, and Volume 8, the one time she did anything, could’ve been done without her there. We’re never told if she needed to fly the whale, so we can just assume it was capable of flying itself. The Grimm could’ve attacked Atlas on their own, Hazel could’ve still died without Salem there, hell he could’ve died at the same time he would’ve normally, just have the fight against him instead of Salem. Cinder could’ve flown off with the relics at the end, Salem didn’t need to do that. The Hound could’ve still ran it’s course without Salem directly being there, just send him in with Cinder. And Salem actually doing things wouldn’t really solve the issue either because she’s TOO strong. None of the heroes can scale to her, so if she WAS destroying cities and killing people, there’s no feasible way for any of the characters to fight back, they’ll all just get bodied. I think the writers know that, but instead of keeping her elusive like you said, they dug themselves into the hole they’re in now, where she can’t do anything but is constantly present anyway. Tl;dr= I agree with you and think the writers made a huge oopsie

[@domp2729]

Either that or go in the complete opposite direction and make a villain like Goda Ryuji. Where the main villain is constantly following the protagonist around, testing them but showing that they’re their for a fair fight. Even teaming up with the protagonist to dispatch of someone truly vile. You get to know the antagonist as well, if not more so than the protagonist.

[@michaelvalentinoyo1259]

@@domp2729 but for that you need an actual protagonist. I vote for Oscar because he is the only one not insane

[@rossjones8656]

Yeah, even if we look at another character like the fire lord from TLAB he is just a hungry dictator yet he has kept his mystic because he is built up as the ultimate evil that required the ultimate good to actually beat. Have Salam been that.

[@ShinobiDiggz]

To quote Terrible Writing Advice: "Motive. Motive. Motive. The most common misstep when writing a villain is having them be devoid of any motive at all. Villains that come from nothing tend to have their contribution to the story also be described as nothing."

[@peppermeister8165]

The section at around 13:00 about how none of the villains really communicated with each other just makes me think that Salem's entire plan would be destroyed had the villains unionized

[@gokugtsupersaiyan]

"They don't even have dental"

[@ryujinkidd]

so basically what would happen if work collogues told each other what their salary is

[@justsomeguywithaquestionab3175]

@@gokugtsupersaiyan lol I see what you did there

[@comicmisconceptions4602]

@@gokugtsupersaiyan lol

[@KeeKage37]

Over all, I think the major problem with Salem. Is that CRWBY try’s to paint her as a Thanos like villain. Without actually having her put in any work, or do anything Thanos worthy. Also great point about Penny. She died without ever confronting the man who drained her and violated her autonomy, who took control of her body against her will, and tried to forcibly turn her on her friends. You better believe she’d have “personal feelings,” about that. Likewise Pietro never knows about any of this. And never confronts the man who did this, TO HIS DAUGHTER! A man who was once a trusted college. But has such a all consuming grudge against him that he turned on his country. And is willing to kill millions of people, and side with a monster like Salem to get back at him. Such a waist.

[@AndorRadnai]

I wish they had her confined to post credits scenes in the same way. That way they could keep everything ambiguous and then tie everything together with her, Infinity War style. But alas… If watching RWBY…

[@Soulsilvergirl101]

I wish Tyrian was in Menagerie for Blake’s home arc. Instead of having the twin brothers (I literally don’t remember their names), have Tyrian be the middleman between Adam, Salem and the White Fang. I get Adam is forced into collaborating in the battle of beacon, but why did they just drop him? Salem’s faction had an entire army at their disposal and they just forgot about it. It helps Tyrian is a faunus who hates humanity too, maybe instead of forcing Adam to team up, he could actually convince him this is the perfect option for the white fang. Hell, it would make a great conflict for Blake coming to terms with Adam falling even deeper into darkness and that she can never have the mentor she loved back cause just from having been in an abusive relationship, you always irrationally hope that person will return to the way they were. But instead of coming to those terms immediately, have Blake take all her anger out on Tyrian for corrupting Adam past the point of no return.

[@thomasraines1396]

That’s a really interesting way of handling it, instead of Adam just being “there”.

[@TitanXecutor]

I really like that idea, and it gives Adam a purpose

[@constantdisappointment5658]

It would definitely give the audience more interest in his perspective of himself, to be seen in a high position of one group but seemingly a pawn in another.

[@johnking9943]

I know this is years ago, but this reminds me so much of Red Dead Redemption 2, and how Micah Bell played a part in Dutch van Der Linde's downfall. The idea of Tyrian being the Micah to Adam's Dutch, while Blake is like the John Marston to both of them, is just so appealing and cool to me. :D

[@imdascottman6853]

At this point, RWBY Chibi is more consistent than the actual show.

[@MisteRRYouTuby]

That’s because Salem isn’t in it…yet.

[@DummyDrawsStuff]

There is also rwuby chibi a series of dumb gags which uses the cast better than the actual show does. Who knows the reference?

[@thomasraines1396]

@@DummyDrawsStuff I do.

[@theshire9173]

@@DummyDrawsStuff Why does my name start with a Q!?!

[@MisteRRYouTuby]

@@DummyDrawsStuff Junkle Qrow does…

[@SiegfriedLughson]

In the new book is a hint about Gretchen's death, her teacher saved everyone else because she belived Gretchen was skiller enough to deal with an Ursa on her own, so yeah it was a Salem's Ursa, a monster that can kill any other "Gretchen", as Hazel said, if there is no Hunters or huntress at all.

[@petalsinthebreeze]

That leads into a different problem of RWBY where they leave out key context and just jam it in supplementary material, I'm 90% Critter complained about this EXACT thing in her video on supplements for RWBY

[@whatteamwildcats4033]

@@petalsinthebreeze the fact that you have to look elsewhere to figure out and add meaning to hazel's entire deal just hurts me as a writer. Supplementary material should be used to add more to the word around the story, not actively explain things the story isnt

[@colt1903]

"I care about the Nucklavee more than I do Salem." Salem: EMOTIONAL DAMAGE!

[@Alone-SF]

I can hear the FAILURE in this comment

[@joeyginise6051]

@@Alone-SF I can hear the crit sound.

[@dreadrath]

Roman Torchwick is and will always be my favorite RWBY villain, and in some ways he was less a villain and more some guy who got dragged into something way bigger than himself, and the fact he held his own as well as he did and "Mostly" kept his cool in that situation is pretty impressive. Hell even his motivations are somewhat relatable, that and he was a superb ideological antithesis to Ruby's own world view, to the point that they both could've been great foils to eachother, its a battle of belief that I've always thought it a shame the show never really developed more. Like had he survived, Torchwick would've made a pretty great anti-hero, or even an anti-villain.

[@RohitSharma-vj1sw]

Tertiary villains like Roman and Adam were far more interesting than Salem.

[@azizkalb8721]

@@RohitSharma-vj1sw watch fixed rwby then

[@RohitSharma-vj1sw]

@@azizkalb8721 are you talking about Celtic Phoenix's rewrite?

[@azizkalb8721]

@@RohitSharma-vj1sw yes

[@kidprime6863]

@Dreadrath In my Fanfic I brought him back as a vengeful Human/Grimm Hybrid similar to the Hound

[@benjaminmcneil574]

Critter! Wanna hear something crazy about these villains? For reals. Think. Really think about it and think back. The villains have done more damage TO EACH OTHER than the heroes ever did to them! Hazels murked via sacrifice against Salem, Watts is killed by Cinder, Cinder ditched Neo into the Void, Emerald ditches the group entirely Salem killed Leo for cowardice, Mercury swore off Cinder... I've heard of villains turning on each other for their own selfish goals but this is is extreme. It's to the point where Team RWBY barely confronted them! It's like the narrative knows they have no chance in hell of winning so most of the time they get punted off to the side so they don't have to work for it. Am I mad in feeling this way?!

[@paulbutkovich6103]

Well that's only to be expected, after all the heroes have done far more damage to each other than the villains have done to them. RWBY crashed Atlas and Ironwood interrupted Ruby's broadcast. Ozpin's cane nuke exploded a good section of the Atlesian military and Ironwood kept Winter from helping against Cinder. Ruby damaged Cordovin's mech and Cordovin kept them from going directly to Ironwood. Everyone should be *uniting against the literal end of the world* but they're so wrapped in mistrust that they can't. Both sides deserve to fail. Maybe Salem kills off humanity but then finds she can't open the last vault or some such.

[@jaystone193]

So In Other Words The True Villain Of The Story Were Themselves All Along.....Darn.....

[@ShadeSlayer1911]

@@jaystone193 The real villains were the friends they made along the way.

[@patrickgowen324]

@@ShadeSlayer1911And with friends like those who need enemies? (This was 2 years later but the opportunity was too great to pass up)

[@egg6144]

Rwby: “no thoughts, head empty, people dying *guitar riff*.”

[@kamanira]

I've never seen a more accurate summary of RWBY in my life.

[@hopeatlast9617]

You could make an entire song with this phrase in it and I would still like it.

[@fishnewt1331]

14:58 “They keep side-lining our main villains for *these nerds*.” Lol. Favorite line in the video.

[@dudemcguy8949]

This is why I love Tyrian. You can assume all of his motives to work with Salem without far fetched theories. Why work with Salem? He’s batshit insane Why take her orders without question? He wants to satiate his bloodlust. Why support her if she plans to end the world as he believes? Because then everything is dead, yippee! Maybe it’s because he’s slightly different than the copy paste “over confident and egotistical” villain this show seems to REALLY love.

[@thomasraines1396]

He’s just there to kill people.

[@JoshtheOverlander]

There really is almost nothing to Salem, is there. This woman murdered her own husband and children and knows the circumstances of Ozpin's reincarnation. Imagine if, while she was torturing Oscar, he starts crying from the pain and he reminds her of one of her kids and she hesitates for a moment. A wordless moment to show there's more to the witch than a vindictive monster

[@MythFreak301]

Salem is so tortured by even being alive that she doesn't care what she does anymore. She's lived for millenia and those memories have probably faded.

[@patchwurk6652]

@@MythFreak301 Cool headcanon. Makes for a lame villain though if they're just a mindless force of forward momentum. People want compelling villains and characters with relatable motives, not just a bulldozer that's evil for the sake of it. And that's Salem and Cinder: The two main antagonists of RWBY.... And they have absolutely no rational reason for their motives besides "Fuck you I'm evil." This show expects me to take these villains seriously, but I've seen more believable motives and gravity to a villain from Yzma and Kronk from Emperor's New Groove than I've ever gotten watching Salem and Cinder.

[@spritemon98]

Would have been amazing

[@francescocappelli9071]

Salem still love ozma

[@jakariashafin8685]

@@francescocappelli9071 are you.....kidding me?

[@jameshewitt4706]

The only thing I'll say in favor of Salem sitting around and not doing ANYTHING herself would be IF her plan was to drive humanity apart to destroy them. By playing along with Oz's plan to avoid panic and not reveal herself, she starves all her enemies of the single common foe that might end up uniting them to try to fight.

[@indigodemipanther739]

You know another that we could learn from our villains especially Cinder is in relation to the Maidens? Would Cinder even be able to use those powers without any drawbacks? Hell, would she be able to actually again them since she's already a maiden? A lot of questions about the lore could be answered through our villains as well.

[@ProxyDoug]

Would be funny if she finally got another maiden's power and then she just explodes.

[@patchwurk6652]

@@ProxyDoug I can't see why that would cause problems. Every Maiden (based on observation) can do the exact same things any other Maiden can do. Like their seasons don't seem to factor in whatsoever to the powers they can bring to bear, and hell apparently Training isn't even necessary because Penny was an uber-beast of a Maiden literally seconds after getting the power. Maybe Cinder just sucks, because she seems to be the only person in the show who has to actually Learn how to be a beast with the Maiden powers, and despite all her training, she still can't overtake Penny without cheating and bringing backup to Barely scrape out alive and scott free.

[@ProxyDoug]

@@patchwurk6652 It's very likely that there aren't any issues, but in a better written show, taking this much magic into your body would probably have some serious drawbacks.

[@patchwurk6652]

@@ProxyDoug Oh yeah, this would be a huge no-no in a competent show. Wasn't dismissing your idea, it's legit. Mostly just remarking that you're trying to get incompetent boobs to understand basic plot structure.

[@herpderp5727]

A rare moment where I defend the show but it's, IMO, not that far-fetched to say one might be able to obtained more than one maiden power, maybe even all of them. Recall that they originated from a single person (Ozma). Who's to say they can't be gathered into a single vessel again?

[@theshire9173]

Even through their flaws, the villains are still my favorite part of the series, besides Cinder, she’s the worst. I’m still sad that Torchwick and Watts are dead

[@JoshtheOverlander]

Dude, I just miss the charismatic ones, the ones you mentioned. There's a reason Roman stuck around longer than originally intended, and when Watts finally got his time to shine, he shined brilliantly.

[@thomasraines1396]

The show couldn’t handle Torchwick and Watt’s scenery chewing.

[@Eugene_Black]

@@thomasraines1396 sad but true

[@ua_rez6169]

I'm really hoping that during the Vacuo arc, now that Salem's counsel has been diminished to Cinder, Mercury, and Tyrian, we can finally get proper development for them. There is so much potential with Mercury's partnership with Tyrian and his opinions on Cinder. Like you said, just give screen time to them having conversations with each other, so that by the time RWBY ends, they can hopefully be remembered as well fleshed out characters. I believe that the biggest mistake that can be done with Salem's counsel at this point is to have Salem bring in replacements for Watts and Hazel. There is no need to bloat the cast with villains who will undoubtedly have no development. They really need to take advantage of the fact that they now have a smaller cast of characters who can equally get more development.

[@ryujinkidd]

as much as i hope this happens judging by previous volumes odds are they are gonna spend the majority of the arc either focusing on new side characters or bumblb with less then half an ep of the villains have a single convo with each other in all honesty this next vol could be the nail in the coffin for me as far as my interest in all things RT goes i just saw the new gen lock and disappointment doesn't even begin to cover it, im so tired of giving this show the benefit of the doubt because of what it used to mean to me.

[@benjaminmcneil574]

@@ryujinkidd it's been eight years. Some people have no more hope to spare.

[@paulbutkovich6103]

We've been down this road before...

[@nekoprankster2184]

A thing I've learned about immortal characters is, you have to go by different rules for them. With the threat of death gone (unless there's still a fatal weakness that could still kill them, or at least incapacitate them), you need a new force of tension and new weaknesses. With more heroic immortals, this tends to be mortal loved ones or even just a concept they cherish, such as a kingdom they've helped blossom and want to see stand the test of time. But also, just consider what the removal of death could do to a person's psyche. Does it make them apathetic to life, or more appreciative of it? How has riding the flow of time made them look at the world and people? Are they more cynical, feeling that everything's end is inevitable, or are they more optimistic seeing that eventually things can be rebuilt or improved? Do they care little for other people, seeing them as feeble and short-lived insects? Or do they care for them and put their all in making the most of the short time they'll get to spend with each individual? For an immortal villain like Salem, I think a good way to have her actions make sense while still not making things too difficult for the heroes is to lean into those questions. How Salem's immortality works makes her the type of threat that can't just be fended off once. She *will* come back, she *will* try again, and she only has to accomplish her plan once. If she doesn't assemble the relics this century, she can always do it the next. If the heroes manage to steal back a relic, well she can always get it back later. It would sound like on paper to be frustrating, but remember that as a person with basically infinite time, she's going to have a different relationship with it. Someone with at most a century to accomplish everything want in life is going to feel a bit more pressure with time; Salem just doesn't have a time limit to consider. So the idea that she doesn't put in her all - that she doesn't just use her powers and immortality to overpower kingdoms' defenses and take the relics for herself - can still make sense with her. She can be written as so sure in her inevitable success, she doesn't care about efficiency. She can afford having a little fun in it. Hence, making it a chess game. Assemble disposable mortals and make them fight for her. Make a complicated scheme more meant to maximize crushing the heroes' morality than being the best way to get the relic. If an asset fails her, then no sweat on her, she'll live long enough to see a new asset born and raised. It'll work with the type of personality CRWBY seems to like for their villains: superiority complex, sassy, and clearly a bad person. Of course, consistent defeats will eventually start to get to her. Frustrate her. She could either decide to start taking a more active role, ramping up difficulty for the heroes in the latter seasons but also potentially opening her up to more slip-ups as her rage affects her decision-making. Or ego could be her weakness: with too much of a wounded pride, she may feel she has to lean more into her scheming to prove "she's still got it" or that all those losses with just a lucky streak on the heroes' part and not indicative of anything at fault *with her*. I think this could also help in writing the other villains: I got the sense that Hazel chose to follow Salem as he saw opposing her as a hopeless endeavor, which I think could also fit at least Watts and Mercury, if not Tyrian too. If her victory is inevitable, why bother trying to fight her? Why not just be on the winning side? Or better yet, hope you endear yourself to her enough that'll spare you, or at least help you accomplish your last acts of pettiness before everything ends. This could help with potential character growth for the villains, especially those on redemption paths. If they begin to realize their place as just chest pieces - regardless of how much they achieve on Salem's behalf - this could cause conflict within themselves that either leads to switching sides or deciding to sabotage Salem as a bit of a "fuck you" before going out. This then leads to an interesting theme of the passage of time and feeds into the hope vs giving up vibes I've felt RWBY has been trying to convey, which can be a segway into discussing real world applications of the metaphor of facing a seemingly eternity and unstoppable threat that every human should be concerned with and work together in combating. I *think* there might still be a little time for CRWBY to write this or something similar in, since you can argue little tidbits have been hinted since her first introduction and it's an obvious mindset for her to have in my opinion. This is also still not a motivation, which was the main concern of the video. I at least hope I gave potential fanfic authors material to work with, since they and the soundtracks are the only savings graces for me now.

[@kidprime6863]

That's a lot to take in but great analysis 👍

[@Sorain1]

I'd add on that the repeated defeats and the total lack of urgency when it's not Salem's life on the line could serve as the motive for a lot of the villains actions. They rush in ahead both because they know Salem won't punish them that much (because she doesn't really punish failure that hard) and because her passivity frustrates them. The repeated defeats of Salem's overly complex plans when she _could_ bulldoze her way to a win if she just got off her ass and _did_ something gets to them. Eventually those motivated by the belief Salem will inevitably win start to doubt that win will come in their lifetimes, because any wins are because they worked and risked themselves for it and defeats are because Salem doesn't listen to their warnings about overly subtle, complicated and fragile plans. Those in it for ambition (Hi Cinder!) getting frustrated at the lazy pace and periods of inaction, then hypocrisy when Salem gets mad at them for doing something with their name. The wheels can rapidly come off _because_ Salem doesn't care to finish the job. There is writing space there for good intrapersonal drama on the villain side and dare I say some character growth. Salem finally getting motivated to prove her capacity because literally everyone on her council of doom is loosing faith is a terrifying prospect for the audience as much as a thrilling one, a chance to show that Salem really is that dangerous and explain the structure of the story needing her to be so passive.

[@serafine666]

20:55 KZbinr SuperEyepatchWolf once did a video about what makes a villain really special and his leading example was a villain refusing the offer of a glass of wine and instead asking for orange juice on ice. Strange and incidental details can have an amazing degree of impact on fleshing out who the bad guys are and make the audience interested.

[@robertchaney2704]

To be fair, we know that at the very least weiss knew about Watts. She was given that incriminating footage of him dealing with her dad that she showed to the council. I think Ruby and Penny were in the room at about this time as well. This was the only real critique I have with this befor though and it’s pretty nitpicking. Even if they did know about Watts, knowing who he was didn’t really change or effect them much. Ironwood is the one who fought him. I just wanted to point out that detail, otherwise great video 👍

[@dragonborn7955]

Still doesn't mean she knows what he looks like. Camera angle and all.

[@ryancarson6962]

But the thing is we never learn *WHY* Weiss knows him. Why does she know a guy who, from what I've gathered, was just a regular lowly inventor in Atlas? Why does his appearance seem incriminating to her? Does she know that he's legally dead? What's the connection here? This only reinforces how undefined the heroes relationships to the villains are.

[@willanrac]

God can you imagine if ospin trapped her in the grim lands and her first plan was to make enough dispair (and or needs a maiden for a specific relic) so she can break free. Then as soon she is free she goes to attack atlas?

[@elpopman2055]

That is very realistic. Sealing A Powerful Immortal is the most logical option to take if they willl not compromise.

[@kirbycat1977]

Salem is literally a Karen who loved a guy who died, blamed him and everyone else for going crazy when all he wanted was to wait for her to pass on to be together again, decided to let everyone who she doesn't hate as much do stuff for her and just spread one rumor and let people interpret so they can follow her cause if not they die by her hand faster.

[@danishsyed1068]

That has to be one the funniest summary of her character I've seen in a while also it helps I think that what CRWBY was going seriously all the bad guys have the theme of not being able to move forward with their lives what were people expecting.

[@fenrisvermundr2516]

Moral of the story. Don't save the princess.

[@dannyc4550]

Man it crazy how Roman was a better antagonist then all of them combine and he's been dead since season 3.

[@simeonwashington9995]

This really does suck because the villains could have been so interesting, but with Salem being written the way she is, none of them will have their time to shine or grow. They're just fumbling around aimlessly to be honest trying to get these relics.

[@lordpanic5445]

Honestly, Salem's been alive for thousands of years. She's seen the world of remnant evolve around her, the good the bad and the terrible. (ex: faunus slavery, dust mining traps, other terrible decisions by the so called leaders.) If I was alive as long as her I'd probably just like to sit back and play the long game, stay away until they find enough hope and then bAM. Strike then. Break em all emotionally. I'd just try to find something fun to do tbh. Where's the fun in going god mod and just tanking your way through enemies in a video game???? there's no battle, no exciting wins and angering losses. I'd imagine that seeing as much death and destruction as Salem, one would become pretty unemotional.

[@kidprime6863]

You're absolutely right

[@TechBlade9000]

Channeling our inner Minecraft Creative Mode complex for this one

[@YesHelloHiGoodbye]

i wanna point out ur youtber format is like perfectly appealing. Mini second long self plug, No intro about an irrelevent subject to draw comparison, decent mic that isnt so loud n high quality but also doesnt sound like a potato, casual video essay not taking the subject overly seriously 10\10 lad

[@thejudgmentalcritter6584]

Aw! This is so nice! :D thank you!

[@TheGateShallStand]

Now give us back Roman, the best character in the entire series

[@josesosa3337]

When i write I always think of these parts. 1.plot 2. Characters 3. Setting 4. Theme 5. Emotions(for the characters, viewers, and readers) After you know all 5, you need to see how the villians and main characters are connected and why they cross paths. This Salem stuff is an example of why its important to know what the villian wants early on. The viewer needs to care about what the characters are doing early on.

[@malcolmeharveste9028]

If they want to make the Grimm a threat what the writers need to do is have Salem make elite hunter-killer type enemies less horde more assassins.

[@ryujinkidd]

actually if they did what AOT did and show the Grimm actually kill people it could solidify them as a more serious threat. aside from torch wick have you honestly ever once seen the Grimm actually kill someone i mean the heroes dont even get fazed by them their an inconvenience at best.

[@elevatedmeance6807]

@@ryujinkidd we talking AOT here, the dude have zero fucks about portraying genocide and fucking with your very sense of morality, too RWBY where fuck isn't even said They don't got the skills or balls to make a morally grey show where the actions are wrong, but it's so proven to you that you understand a genocide (too some extent) RWBY would have been self-righteous about it

[@kidprime6863]

Make more Hounds

[@kidprime6863]

Also the Hound was actually based on an abandoned concept involving the "Grimm Pools" being sold to the black market and be used to "Grimmify" animal into Grimm. I'm serious, look it up.

[@AndorRadnai]

@@kidprime6863 Pretty much. That was the only Grimm with a sense of danger to it. Disturbing, dangerous and smart.

[@Pendragondnd]

I don't think "Our protagonists spend more time fighting smaller groups instead of the main villains" is inherently a problem. As you pointed out, RWBY has a theme of uniting humanity. So it makes sense for a lot of their conflicts to be with the smaller scale threats that are preventing humanity from coming together as a whole/with potential allies that are more focused on their own small scale conflicts, than the larger threats that they aren't aware of. This could also mean that when our primary antagonist team does show up, they can have a greater impact. However we still need our primary antagonists to be well, actual characters with actual motivations. Even if we don't fully understand them for a while, when we do learn about them, we need to look back and go, "o I get it now, that's why they did that stuff." I think season 1-3 almost hit the nail on the head. The White-Fang and Torchwich were small scale local threats, like atlas antagonists, but the reason that they were causing so many problems, is because they were being riled up by Cinder. This means that we still felt Cinder's, and by extension Salem's, influence when our protagonists clashed with Torchwhich and The White-Fang. We didn't know much about Cinder, which was fine at the time. Mysteries can be interesting, but they are risky. When the mystery of Cinder's motivation turned out to be the most generic version of "people hurt me, now I hurt people", it retroactively damaged seasons 1-3. I can't really comment on the Atlas Antagonists, since I stopped watching in vol 5, but it sounds like they were just kinda there.

[@kidprime6863]

Couldn't agree more

[@Nazo-kage]

3:40 I always figured from the moment we got backstory on her, that Salem’s motivation is the same as Bartadalus’ in final fantasy 13. She Wants to die. So she wants to end all life on remnant human, Fanis, maybe even Grimm, so it will get the gods attention, so they will come back and end her, because in her mind they’ll just restart life all over again.

[@AndorRadnai]

That would be very interesting. Although that should have been touched upon in… let’s say seasons 6-7…

[@Nazo-kage]

@@AndorRadnai oh I completely agree. The fact that the writers seem to be dragging their feet so much on revealing what it is that Salem actually wants, is only going to aggravate people more. Especially when it’s finally revealed if it seems nonsensical or stupid. Just like when cinders backstory was revealed most people’s reaction was not: “Oh she has such a tragic backstory.” It was more. “So what? too little too late.” The funny thing is by the time we finally got to her backstory our mentalities were the same as Watt’s.

[@ClassyStudios]

Oh boy a perfect birthday present my day is going pretty good now.

[@MisteRRYouTuby]

Happy Birthday! Enjoy JC’s gift.

[@KokaKola633]

Happy belated birthday! :3

[@PaytonPaw124]

Happy birthday

[@robertchaney2704]

Happy birthday 🎉

[@Jordan-gp3mj]

Happy birthday!!!!🤍

[@Rahbiel_AotD]

Sudden realization: Hazel, Watts and Tyrian are what happens when you create a dime-a-dozen villain trio you see in every shonen anime movie and keep them around way longer than expected while still having an anime movie’s worth of development for their kind (ie little to none at all).

[@Rahbiel_AotD]

No wonder they act more like obstacles than actual realized characters.

[@kana22693]

The big one, the crazy one and the trickster. Bonus points if the trickster literally has a nickname like "Bob of the 1000 plans" or "Bob of the shadows". Personally I don't mind villains like these cuz they're usually a stepping stone for some emotional growth for the heroes and their fights tend to be dope, it's only a problem when these are your MAIN villains after 5+ years.

[@KeeKage37]

Imagine what they could have done if the white fang was actually apart of Salem’s council. We could have had them have a good reason for them siding with Salem as humans in general hade abused and taken advantage of them. Siding with Salem could have given them what they wanted. Or they could have used this as a opportunity to take the maiden powers for themselves. Have Sienna or Illia be a maiden, and give the White fang more legitimacy as a major player instead of disposable goons. It’s also really hard to take Emeralds “changing sides,” seriously. After all why should we care she’s left Salem when she herself has said she never cared about Salem. She only cared about Cinder. Leaving Salem doesn’t mean she’s cut all ties to Cinder.

[@rosesongoku6980]

Unfortunately, I wouldn’t be surprised if she just goes crawling back to Cinder, begging for forgiveness, asking her to ditch Salem so the two of them can rule the world together, and Cinder will viciously beat her while she pleads for mercy, showing that she has still learned absolutely nothing, even if Cinder says to her face that she will betray her master and rule the world by herself, and Emerald is just her peon.

[@ProxyDoug]

Reporter: Salem, why did you collected the relics and doomed humanity Salem: I LOVE GOOOOOOOLLLLD!

[@soulslvr9562]

The funny thing is that Tyrian's first encounter with Salem is actually in The World of RWBY. An outside material that to be honest is too expensive to buy... And most of the physical copies ive found in bookstores are often wrapped in plastic so you cant even read it without buy it. How do i know Tyrian's backstory is in there?? Because i managed to find an unwrapped copy and i skimmed. Also Watts' backstory is in there too but that one was ACTUALLY explained in the show....

[@HoV326]

I didn't even know there was a World of RWBY until now

[@thejudgmentalcritter6584]

That is next level ridiculous. BASIC character motivations shouldn't be hidden behind a supplemental materials' pay wall. It's like Roosterteeth WANTS the show to die.

[@soulslvr9562]

@@thejudgmentalcritter6584 it honestly is. But trust me with what theyre doing with the series i think theyre just catering to the most asskissy of the fandom....

[@thejudgmentalcritter6584]

@@soulslvr9562 Honestly I don't even believe they're doing that. If they where, Bumblebee would have an on-screen kiss by now.

[@lop90ful1]

@@thejudgmentalcritter6584 No because that would be actully good writing.

[@ledge-magee]

Talking about Salem finding the villains at the grocery store reminded me of that joke where Odin picked up Loki behind a Taco Bell lol. It was pointless to introduce them all as a group imo It probably would've worked better if they were the main villain for one season, we got their motivations / backstory before they were defeated, then we learned how they connected to Salem, or something. You know, like an anime.

[@wonder_lime2975]

Ypu know who had a good(at least ok) redemption arc? Ilia. They fleshed her out throughout the season, had her CONTINUOUSLY OCCUR, an actual reason for working with the Faunus Brothers (forgot their names), and ended with her repenting for her mistakes and helping in the end, giving her hope at the end of volume 5. Wasn't the best, but better than Emerald's and Hazels in my opinion.

[@nikeiyomiuri2728]

At this point, I'm pretty sure Mercury and Emerald were just helping Salem out of fear for their own lives

[@AndorRadnai]

I presume the same. But I would love to see that in the show. Emerald was kinda ok in that sense, but not perfect.

[@mikerueffer579]

Critter:"She want's the maiden powers why does she only have one girl in her council? What's the point of these 3 dudes." Well obviously Salem is a harem protagonist and she want's to make Ozpin jealous of her new Husbando's.

[@thomasraines1396]

Imagine if they just doubled down on her sheer pettiness.

[@librathebeautifulwarmonk1283]

That explains why Ozpin hangs around so many cute girls. He's trying to one up her

[@emryscaster7332]

Granted I could see Hazel, maybe Watts, but who’d be jealous of Tyrion?

[@mikerueffer579]

@@emryscaster7332 I mean wouldn't you be offended your ex would rather date a crazed psycho then you?

[@emryscaster7332]

@@mikerueffer579 okay, *true*

[@MRDLT00]

I still think Hazel would have been a far better villain if instead of some bullshit about a sister, he was actually one of the bodies Ozpin was meant to take over but he had such an indomitable will that he was able to reject Ozpin out of him. That’s what I was hoping before we got the actual lame answer. -___-

[@funniman7112]

I feel like they wanted to make a villain that was just plain evil and kinda vague, like Skeletor. I think the problems come up when there’s all this lore muddling up the motives with no explanation to how they work. Skeletor’s motives are simple, get the power of Grayskull to rule Eternia, it’s a pretty common motive and He-Man’s use of the power shows how it works and why Skeletor needs it. I have absolutely no idea how the relics work and how they can help Salem achieve her unknown motives with them.

[@josephinewen4628]

I miss when rwby was just about kids fighting thieves in a modern-futuristic setting. It was never amazing, but it was unique and charming...and then it did a complete 180 and turned into this generic fantasy that took itself way too seriously. Past season 3, it just feels like everything's being written on the fly. I don't think the writers have any idea what they want to do with the show.

[@spectralknightgaming8364]

RWBY villains: Immortal witch who wants humanity to die and a flame karen. Madness Combat villains: *C L O W N*

[@daplinko3433]

best motivation given to a villain was "its not what I have to gain its that I cant afford to lose" - Torchwick and it was his damn last words before they killed him that's a big open book I mean I have more questions after his death then I did before

[@thefactory7221]

They could have given literally any minion under Salem a really great motivation by making one of Oz's reincarnates a loved one of theirs, you could even take it a step further by having them see the Maidens as abominations in Ozpin's shadow(this would also be a subtle way to shed light on the Maidens without having a homework side series that doesn't really explain anything). Revenge and Hate are destructive motivations, but it's one people can relate to.

[@vivavoxxy97]

Honestly, seeing the series' actual main antagonists having too many vague end goals and them constantly getting sidelined for some other random schmuck to be the villain is a good example that CRWBY are mediocre storytellers.

[@Hartzilla2007]

They even do the same thing for the protagonists.

[@vivavoxxy97]

@@Hartzilla2007 True.

[@flowersandcheesecake1710]

It even worse when the villains motivation is revealed in a damn book (found this information in the comments for Hazel and Tyrian)

[@batfang25animations39]

Mediocre is pretty generous if you ask

[@Mr.EintheMorning]

A lot of these problems from the show's lack of a firm foundation. Nothing Roman and Cinder do in the first two volumes has anything to do with the relics and maidens, so we're left in the awkward position of not introducing the Big Bad until season 3's end and the main characters not even learning her name until Volume 4. They really should have put Cinder in Roman's position and had her reporting to Salem like Palpatine and Vader

[@benjaminmcneil574]

That's hindsight talkin.

[@BumbleCrumble1072]

@@benjaminmcneil574 Everything in RWBY has been planned from the beginning.... apparently.

[@patchwurk6652]

@@BumbleCrumble1072 Lol, then it was planned from the beginning to read like a show that has no idea wtf it's even doing and can't maintain a consistent plot. ...Probably safer to assume they're liars and trying to cover up incompetence rather than buying that they set out from the beginning to deliberately fuck up and retcon their own story every other episode. "This was planned from the beginning" puts all the blame on Monty, a Dead Man, for the shows fuckups, despite the fact that RT made a massive pubic shitstorm of throwing out anyone who actually worked with Monty and wouldn't compromise with the company vision. Dead dude makes a perfect scapegoat for their failures because it's not like a dead man can argue back.

[@Dragonkid1801]

Ozpin said that Salem wanted to summon the gods' judgement so she could die, but we have no idea if he's right or wrong

[@Vigriff]

I have a bad feeling that he's right considering that Tyrian also stated that Salem was going to destroy everything and say what you will about that man but so far he's been eerily perceptive of things.

[@TrueBladeSoul]

Honestly I prefer to view it as her deciding to either kill them or die trying I mean she did tell them that she would keep trying as long as she was alive

[@UnicornofWar]

Ozpin: "All Salem craves now is release! Death!" Me: "Oz, you know what people say about assuming." Okay but seriously, who thought it'd be good to go 8 seasons without clarifying the bad guy's end goal???

[@outlawedsoul8553]

Pretty much all on point, i mean hell, Adam never even met the entire team, I even had to double check so i didn't stick my foot in my mouth. Even though they were all at haven, no one but Blake saw him before he fled, imagine if he had met ruby or weiss evem just once, the damn dialogue would have been insane, especially with Weiss because of his SDC branding.

[@cameronbaker97]

Yeah, that happens a lot in RWBY. Like only Ruby had met Tyrian out of all of team RWBY, and none of them ever met Watts, only heard of him.

[@loiiysailor1177]

What's comes to villains in Rwby 1. if your male get to be kill off 2.if your female you get to have feels from the fan's and a short redemption by end of the day the villans are nothing but punching bags by the "hero's"

[@TheTrueDiablix]

"or what's your favorite beverage..." One of the best anime villains, Toguro: "and thanks, I'll take an orange juice instead"

[@gokbay3057]

19:19 my man Roman Torchwick remaining the best villain.

[@skyrogue1977]

In all honesty, when the “Heroes” do more damage than the villains, whats the point of them.

[@RoronoaZoro-ur6hr]

Qrow and Ironwood keeps telling Team RWBY not to do the shit they do, but they don’t listen them because they’re straight white males, and since Team RWBY are a team of strong independent lesbian, pansexual, and bisexual women they feel they shouldn’t have to listen to reasonable plans made by Qrow and Ironwood, and at this point in time of Salem succeeds in destroying the world of RWBY then I’ll be grateful for gothic monster mommy lady.

[@Gdsryrox]

@@RoronoaZoro-ur6hr Holy shit your right. In the first 3 volumes characters sexual orientation was barely even touched, closet we got was Pyrrha and Juan but even then it was slow and never got a whole lot of time. Qrow was a cool uncle and most character had almost normal relationships with each other. Come the new vols and after the whole 'kick vic' shit and suddenly team RWBY are all lesbians, Nora and Ren are now rumored to be in a 3 way relationship with Juan and every straight male is evil/killed off.

[@vergilthefallen9]

salem should have been a true immortal. kind in voice, unbothered by anything that happened. No setback should make her angry, nothing should drive her to any action beyond a brisk walk or a wave of the hand. She is an immortal playing the long game. If the hero's face her, saying they will beat her she laughs. Any action taken by them is only slowing her, but there is no way to stop her. Salem should be the inevitable, slow, oncoming storm. You cant stop her, and she knows it so any act taken to oppose her, any loss suffered is a setback of time. and what is a little lost time to an immortal? Imagine the Salem who never screams or snaps. Who torture's those who fail her with the same non plussed expression of a mother scolding their child. Who tells the heroes that they can struggle all they want, that if they do manage to win, she will simply sit and wait until they turn grey and old, and then she will come back and strangle them in their beds. Time defeats all heroes, but time has no hold me.

[@thomasraines1396]

That’s honestly pretty terrifying.

[@AndorRadnai]

Yup. Salem should be a post credits menace until she barrels into the world and rips everything apart with utter ease, giving the heroes more motivation to stop fighting amongst themselves and band together. Infinity War wasn’t a success by accident. Imagine Thanos flailing around menacingly in the background of Civil War.

[@Sorain1]

Honestly, the idea of her _not_ torturing them, but guilting them via her disappointment in them works better to me. Physical torture? Who cares about being whipped when Salem could just say "You know, I had a minion like you once, they didn't fail me like this. Maybe I'm just seeing their ghost when I look at you and assume you can handle the tasks I give you." Psychological torture is so much more effective, and entertaining to the audience because it requires the villain to dig into the minds and emotions of their minions, which hopefully the audience wants to know about too.

[@s-o-tariknomad6970]

I think CRWBY made a misstep in their Literary Allusions. Watts should have been based on Lampwick, not Torchwick, since he's more relevant to "Pinocchio's" story. And instead of being trapped in a burning building, Cinder should have used the relic to make him a Donkey. This would work well if his motive was something like "I did not want to be made an ass of by Ironwood or treated like some work-mule". You know what I mean?

[@justaraven712]

A counterpoint to the "Why doesn't Salem go out herself" a reason I can think of is because she can die but only temporarily and so I think a situation like I the anime "ajin Demi human" would happen. she would be killed over and over again before being brought to a place and locked away maybe in one of the vaults or in a prison where she is killed infinite amount of times. Since it seems she can't open the vaults she wouldn't be able to exit one.

[@Dragiare]

Clicked as soon as the notification popped up. Lets go!!!

[@OddNess9339]

My biggest problem with the villains is neo. If you listen to the song that plays during her mini-fight against cinder during volume five it pretty much describes how she wants revenge against cinder for Roman's death. But then when cinder flex her maiden Powers she kind of gave up and decided to work alongside her. I always assumed that this was basically neo biding her time to strike. The only way that her blaming Ruby works is if she doesn't know how Roman died but considering the fact that she chose to track down cinder first means that she pretty much puts the blame on cinder. The only reason Roman died was because cinder strong armed them into working with them. So for her to suddenly go a full about face and blame Ruby afterwards makes no logical sense. I thought they were going to do a little switcheroo at the end of volume seven or eight, maybe have neo betray cinder and not necessarily work with the good guys but maybe team up just temporarily so she can get her revenge. But no she full on blames Ruby and tries to kill her in multiple stupid ways and then, surprise surprise, she's betrayed by cinder. The same person who strong-armed them to work with her that resulted in the person most closest to her to die. The writing and volume seven and eight became a freaking joke in my opinion.

[@Proiteus]

If you took away the main goal of the relics what would be the personal goals and motivations of the characters? The lack of a clear answer is RWBY’s biggest problem.

[@qwqwe3037]

Yeah like Oscar's merge. Does anyone truly know how it works?

[@kamanira]

@@qwqwe3037 That doesn't really need a clearly defined answer. What we know is that Ozpin naturally merges with his host, and magic usage makes it happen faster. It's explained well enough, and compared to what the original comment said, has nowhere near as glaring of a flaw.

[@lucasrobin2788]

@@qwqwe3037 that is so completely unrelated to the motivations of the characters. That's just a technical explaination of some worldbuilding. I want to know why Oscar decided to upheave his entire life as a 14 year old boy and go fight. I want to know why he's willing to undergo torture. The specifics of him and Ozpin's merging isn't important here.

[@qwqwe3037]

@@lucasrobin2788 it is when it comes to the development of the character what will become of Oscar's personality post merge is very important for that specific character.

[@lucasrobin2788]

@@qwqwe3037 but not his motivation?? Which is the discussion??

[@thebanditman5663]

So I wrote a fanfic, and one of the key things I made sure to do was when given the opourtunity, give villans better motivations. Tyrian is fine, psychotic cultist is up there already. Emerald is loyal to Cinder for taking her off the streets at a slightly younger age, she's only loyal to a point, and that point is the realization that Cinder's thirst for power is going to get her killed. Mercury is looking for his place in the world without a super power, and if the world is dominated by Salem he'll be higher on the ranking than 90% of people. I explicitly state through other's and Blake's own admitance that Adam was a rapist/compleat controle freak, and that the fang was just his way of getting some sick kicks watching humanity suffer as he did, (that and I go into detail and show acctual faunus suffering in deathcamp conditions so the furry talaban arn't a joke). I added two more villans. Johannas Walts and Simon Sandline. The first is a money obsessed sadist that was introduced with a mass shooting. The second a man scorned by the world's governments for doing their dirty work decades ago. He was a whistle blower, and is willing to watch it all burn if it means feeling the warmth of the fire. I did RT's job for them and made Ironwood a lawful evil from the start, so there never was a heel faced turn Hazel... Honestly he's the only one I sort of liked as he was. Nhilism is very very crushing, and if you fight a god-like being and can't kill her, then what's the point, if she offer's you mercy, take it. Watts. The only thing I changed in regards to him was a little rant to one of the OC's about being on the wrong side of history, and how Salem was trying to create a world free from petty people like Ironwood, and a dream for a world without buricrats. To be fair he was right, becasue I changed Salem a little too. But given everything he did, I decided he deserved a better send off than being team killed... Salem, the big bad... Or not really... It's more muddy than that. Salem, is not death seaking as Oz stated, she's not trying to kill herself through the god's, she's trying to do what she did once upon a time, and free (in her eyes) humanity from the threat of gods and masters. Oz want's peace, Salem want's freedom, one uses order, the other chaos, both are equal in terms of morality, as Oz's use of order to attain peace has led to several human rights violations, and a bunch of other problems due to his failure to understand human nature, and Salem's use of chaos to get freedom is corupted by her lack of empathy. Anywho, people need to understand that everyone is the hero of their own story, or at the very least they are the protagonest of it. You can't just make an enemy for a hero in a vacuume, there needs to be meat on the character. Be it, loyalty, a basic desire to survive, a history of abuse filled rage, greed, revenge, a want for safty, apathy, even hope.

[@jinkwon8410]

This is CRWBY's mantra: As long as they LOOK cool, that's all they need. It's quite telling to say when I am creating OCs in order to flesh out this Salem Pantheon

[@astereotypicalgamer1708]

In V4 Hazel notes they (the council or some earlier version of it?) encountered silver-eyed warriors before. This was another huge missed opportunity, especially considering Hazel saw Ruby in person at Haven. Alas, it's just another curiosity that will never be resolved, like so many other lines in this series.

[@Blizz3112]

Salem being unkillable does provide an issue, but if you compare it with Alucard from Hellsing, his opposition did EVERYTHING in their power to stop Alucard from intervening with their plans, despite him being impossible to kill, lol...

[@thomasraines1396]

Also Alucard is legitimately terrifying.

[@AndorRadnai]

Alucard was an anti-hero you are more frightened by than by the actual villains. Salem could use some of that dynamic.

[@carbodude5414]

Imagine setting up your main villain for 5 years as this super lethal threat only for her to lose her first on-screen fight scene with the protagonists, who walk away from that fight unscathed, and the only character she kills in that fight is her own henchmen

[@rosesongoku6980]

And her Maiden henchwoman, a Starscream wannabe, easily blasts all the other heroes (and Neo) into the void, kills Watts, steals the last wish and has the audacity to lie to her immortal mistress’s face and think she can get away with it. I hope she turns on Salem and gets absolutely spanked for it.

[@spacegrey123]

Thank you! I’ve been thinking the exact same thing about Watts and how non of the the villains ever interact with each other or the Heroes. With Watts it has always bothered me that he has never interacted with any of the Heroes like imagine how amazing his snarky attitude would be against them and him roasting Ruby for her optimistic personality and even thanking her for knocking Cinder down a peg back in Volume 4 or just pissing off Yang would’ve been fun to see. He never got to talk to any of the heroes or even fight them which was an absolute waste as he could’ve been the perfect villain for Weiss and Penny to fight at some point during the Atlas arc. It just sucks he never got any development and died. Also Tyrian should’ve been used more with fighting the good guys like imagine him annoying Yang and making her angry or Blake meeting a Faunus way more insane than Adam. I wish we got to see villains interacting with each other more both villains inside and outside Salem’s faction. For example Tyrian and Hazel have never talked to each other the closest we got to them interacting was Hazel telling Emerald and Mercury to basically ignore him when Tyrian was mocking them when they returned from Mistral in volume 6. Adam and Tyrian would’ve been interesting too with Adam getting pissed off with Tyrian not caring about the Faunus. We could’ve even had our first villain vs villain moment with Adam and Jacques meeting which would’ve been interesting. Seeing how Watts would’ve reacted to being replaced by Mercury in Salem’s faction. So many examples of potential dynamics that we never got to see with the villains.

[@sunny-xc8hx]

off topic but your little critter designs for patreon are AMAZING! so creative and well done

[@thejudgmentalcritter6584]

Thank you! :D

[@wildrabbit2237]

I ran a D&D campaign when I was still in high school. It was set up to be this giant, chosen by the gods, Hunger Games type ordeal. But I wanted to build to it. Which led me to only sprinkle in things about the end game, and introduce things my players COULD kill in the meantime. This went on for 2ish years, and when I finally DID reveal the big plot point, it just felt random. No one cared about these new bad guys being talked about, they just spent 2 years facing off against this Lich, only to find out he was an evil god’s champion all along. It was bad. Even I knew it was bad. Long story short, Rooster Teeth are professional writers and show runners and are making the same mistakes with their writing as a 9th grader.

[@peterclaymore2239]

Hit the nail on the head again. You are KILLING IT with these video essays. Also when you showed the proof that Wats had NO interaction with team RWBY I audibly went, "OH MY GOD SHE RIGHT!"

[@bungieborris9111]

Salem found em at the 7-11, just pulled up in her truck and said "hey boys want a job?"

[@sethgriffin3754]

I’m so sorry but : Oh my nefarious plans !!

[@BeetleTricks411]

The Nucklavee is part of the reason I care more for a Grimm villain more than Neo, probably one that’s caused by RWBJ causing some dark force on the island

[@korrafey1044]

Hazel never made sense to me. Like' boohoo my sister died fighting the grim so I'll just join the mother of the grim

[@thomasraines1396]

It’s like Injustice Superman when he tried to raze Metropolis despite the fact it originally being destroyed was a large factor into his fall to villainy.

[@floccicon]

You know a lot of the time the reason villains like Salem have followers to do their bidding is because they arent strong or powerful enough to do it themselves. But as you said, Salem seems perfectly capable of going out and killing whoever she wants but she just doesn't. They could've had it so that Salem had been weakened in a previous battle (idk something with ozpin or some maiden shit maybe) so shes been recovering her power and having other people do the dirty work in the meantime

[@Hashbrown1682]

I still hate it when people call emerald's turn a "redemption" it's literally artificial

[@trolldrool]

Hazel's motivation would've been a lot more interesting if his sister had died because she got wrapped up in Ozpin's schemes, similarly to how Pyrrha did. Have Ozpin lie to Hazel about what actually happened. Have him notice an inconsistency in Ozpin's story. Have him spend years independently investigating the circumstances of his sister's death, finding clues that lead him to Salem who reveals the truth to him, presented in such a way that he resents Ozpin for involving children in his fight against Salem more than he resents Salem for being the root of the conflict. Convince him that killing those Ozpin reincarnates into would be a mercy. I mean, she's supposed to be a master manipulator, isn't she? No new world order. No grand ideals. Just revenge against the person who manipulated his sister and then tried to cover it up. Is it petty? Yeah, but it would at least make his hatred of Ozpin feel justified.

[@malcolmeharveste9028]

Watts had so little explanation yet was still the best moustache in the show.

[@GeneralBolas]

Salem was at her best at the end of Season 3. She embodied something: Elemental Evil. I liken her at this point to Sauron from Lord of the Rings. Sauron is not a "character" per se; he is a *force.* He is Elemental Evil, a manifestation of corruptive power. That is his Element. Salem's element is division. Qrow said it best in Volume 4: she stays in the shadows so that when she stokes division and people fight, they only have each other to blame. There. That's what Salem needed to be. Ruby wants harmony and unity; Salem is discord and division. The End. But no, they decided to turn Salem... into a *character*. Someone who has wants and needs. There's a reason why LOTR didn't have conversations between the Mouth of Sauron and Sauron himself. Why we never saw Sauron throwing temper tantrums when the good guys won. Salem should not have been a character in the usual sense of the term. She wants discord and division. Why? Because that's *what Salem is.* Her minion are people she can manipulate into creating that division. People who seek power can be coerced into doing various things for it. People who want to overturn the current system are easily manipulated into creating division. Etc.

[@thomasraines1396]

Hell from what I understand Sauron isn’t even defeated in the traditional sense when everything is said and done he’s still around but just severely weakened, but he’s still there.

[@RoadKamelot2nd]

Hazel's motivation in particular is outright ridiculous. "My sister died fighting the monsters Salem creates... so I'll hate Ozpin for not sending her back home and I'll join the lady who MAKES the monsters which killed my sister."

[@thomasraines1396]

It’s like Injustice Superman eventually resorting to trying to raze Metropolis to the ground even though his motivation was heavily tied to Metropolis being destroyed and everyone in it dying.

[@georgemeyers7172]

@@thomasraines1396 To be fair. Superman at that point is clearly quite Insane in his pursuit for Peace. He literally said he would cause Chaos for them just to prove that Chaos is bad.

[@thomasraines1396]

@@georgemeyers7172 he’s meant to be completely insane but his motivation is largely because Metropolis was destroyed that’s why it’s ridiculous. Just because a character is insane doesn’t mean their motive has to be stupid.

[@georgemeyers7172]

​@@thomasraines1396 True. But it definally shows just how Far Superman Has Fallen.

[@snoww3771]

During Hazel's fight with Ospin/Oscar, Ospin tells Oscar that Gretchen was a student at Beacon and that Hazel blamed Ospin for her death.

[@darknerdman9816]

You know it's bad when the grimm from vol 4 had more development then the villains.

[@SkylerMarianna]

10:40 This could be such a good scene. They know each other for some time all ready, have a relationship and possibly a friendship. And then Emerald suddenly out of the blue asks Mercury why he joined. Mercury visibly confused because they allready discussed this because this possibly is a big part of their first conversations. M: what do you mean? I allready told you… multiple times? E: yes, you told me your story, but why? We don’t even know what she truly wants? What keeps you going This could be such a good scene, but it was a waste. It could’ve established their relationship with one another even more, but…..

[@Pazerman65]

From what I'm made to believe. Salem's final goal is to keep humanity divided so that Ozpin can't fulfill HIS goal and bring the gods back to Remnant. Because Salem knows that once they see what she's done to their old world...they WILL kill her.

[@TheNaturalnuke]

Immortals: “What you call a character arc, I call a mood swing.” I don’t think she actually cares. I don’t think Salem gives a single fuck about what her ‘underlings’ are doing. She’s a bored immortal fucking around because there’s nothing better to do. I actually like the idea that she’s basically a figure head/excuse others are using to justify their actions/contact others who are disgruntled with the current world order. And Salem just goes along with it!

[@thomasraines1396]

She just passive aggressively supports whatever biullshit they come up with all in the name of keeping herself entertained.

[@pickyphysicsstudent201]

I think a big problem is that Salem clearly wants to destroy the entire world and any promise of "New World Order" is just so she can string Cinder & co along until they are no longer needed. Its a very uncomplicated black & white good vs bad villain who has a bunch of subjects who have some layers of complexity to their goals. There is very little reason for them to even align with Salem. We're just kind of waiting for them to realize this fact, for them to switch sides or whatever. The best villains are the ones who talk sense but there is no sense is supporting the grimm & Salem because it is clear their goals we never be fullfilled by destroying the world and then rebuilding it.

[@marielb2924]

I have a weird headcanon that Volume 8 would've been better if there was a conflict solely focused on Salem's team and the Atlas Military. Imagine this, Ironwood fighting Hazel or Salem and the Ace Ops and Winter vs all of Salem's followers. But then PLOT TWIST team RWBY and company have been planning a countermeasure all along and it would blow up into a gigantic massive threeway faction fight while Atlas falls to the ground... Of course it needs a lot polishing, but it would be cool.

[@takkarsasori8961]

and maybe have a scene or two thats showing some atlas military in action. like imagine instead of showing soldiers firing from a distance we see some actual huntsmen and huntress instead of team fnki. dont have to be straight up new teams just slap some soldier outfits on some unnoticable background characters if they wanna save time. and give them an energy looking sword.

[@deathofalltrades282]

Honestly, all of this sounds better than what happened in pretty much all of Volume 8. 😅

[@kingraplhmativo5178]

I want Winter vs Cinder with maiden powers, solo battle in the vault .

[@darkarpatron]

I don't know if you've talked about this in a video already, but I think one of the key things that became a big problem as the series went on, (for me, anyway), was the songs of RWBY and the meanings left to interpretation by the lyrics. Here's what I mean, the songs, especially the early ones, promised a lot that the show didn't deliver on for one reason or another. My best example is "From Shadows", what's basically an anthem of how the Faunus will rise en masse to reap revenge on humanity, yet the White Fang in the show proper have proven to be nothing but a violent, minor group of terrorists at best and little more than a nuisance gang at worst. Not really the revolution of a _species_ I got from listening to the song. It's honestly been a while since I've listened to many of the songs, but many of them I remember feeling great impact from, only for the manifestation of the song's meaning to be blandly executed or at worst, non-existent in any recognisable form. Lusus Naturae is a perfect example of this. An awesome song, as they all are, but the meaning of it could've been explored a lot more if it was for a character _in the show_ as opposed to some mad scientist character whose potential for a villainous side *against* Salem was snuffed out the moment he was included in a game that I doubt could ever be canon. Granted, I may just be a sucker for the emotional grip of a powerfully played piece of music, but to feel such weight in a song, only for its meaning in the show proper to fall so short in expectation... It's a turn off from the writing of the show and the plot of the characters, for me anyway. I don't know if anyone else feels this way, but I honestly think that a fair bit of the show was a let down because the songs worked so well to give you this look into the characters and plot points, only for said characters and plot points to fall short. Please note, I'm not blaming the songs nor their writers and performers, Jeff and Casey are fantastic and if anything they've helped so fucking much in elevating this show to where it got to in its peak. But the gap between the promise of the songs and the fulfilment of those promises by the show is eclipsed only by the gap in Salem's character depth for me.

[@thomasraines1396]

The songs go more in depth about the world and characters then the show does.

[@christopherbravo1813]

I can't speak for anyone else, but I personally would be willing to forgive a lack of explained motivations if the villains actually had interesting enough personalities to make up for that lack of information. alas, just like with the heroes, all the interesting villains are long gone.