S3 E77 Mary: The Christmas Story with Andrea Woodmansee (Jewish Wedding Insights)

[@crazyaboutcards]

Thank you! I love Andrea, and this was fantastic!

[@TheScripturesAreReal]

I am so glad it was helpful for you!

[@lamarnewmeyer2747]

I agree, Andrea is great! I expect to see more good things from Andrea!

[@benjaminsmith6031]

You knocked it out of the park with this one. Thank you for posting this interview!

[@TheScripturesAreReal]

It is so much fun to think about the birth narrative and bring more light to it so that we can make it more real! I love that!

[@lamarnewmeyer2747]

Thanks for joining us and your kind comment! I love the guest we have here, so many good insights.

[@CherylEdvalson]

This discussion brings new things to ponder and explore. I’ve heard of Andrea so it was good to hear her discuss this and your insights too. Thank you. I’ve already been sharing this weeks podcast. Merry Christmas! ❤❤❤ 1:20:37

[@TheScripturesAreReal]

Merry Christmas to you! I think there are some wonderful insights in here!

[@lamarnewmeyer2747]

Thank you for joining us and sharing! Merry Christmas!

[@JosephChild1]

I think those verses in John about Jesus being the Door, ties in very well to the Parable of the marriage of the King's Son, talked about in Matthew 22 1-14 .. specifically 11-14. I also agree this is directly related to the Temple. I love how Elder Talmage describes this parable in Jesus The Christ, and the need for entering in the right way. In order to get into the wedding celebration, they must enter by the Door to receive their wedding garment.

[@TheScripturesAreReal]

There is a lot of potent symbolism. Some of it is definitely related to the temple. I would guess that the scriptural wedding imagery is not drawing on the temple, nor is the temple drawing on it, but they both point towards Christ with commonalities. I don't know, but I would guess that is the case.

[@JosephChild1]

@TheScripturesAreReal you are probably right. All things denote there is a God. All good things come from God, and thus point to God. While we tend to find commonalities in the things of God.. it certainly would make sense that it's because they all point to Him.

[@TheScripturesAreReal]

@@JosephChild1 I look forward to being able to ask some questions in the next life!

[@lamarnewmeyer2747]

I agree with your comments above, I have a good long list of questions I'd like to ask in the next life too! Thanks for joining us!

[@kristinealbrecht2071]

Thank you for this extremely informative and detailed presentation. I’ll be back for more!!

[@TheScripturesAreReal]

I am so glad it was helpful for you! I hope we do see you back here. Next week's podcast is fantastic!

[@lamarnewmeyer2747]

Thanks for joining us and for the comment! "See" you soon!

[@RobPyatt]

Loved hearing about Mary and Joseph, their willingness to put everything, their good names, livelihoods, and even lives, on the line to fulfill their God-given roles, and the related symbolism. T'hank you so much for adding to the sacredness of my Christmas experience.

[@TheScripturesAreReal]

That is the part that is most moving to me!

[@lamarnewmeyer2747]

Great comment! Thanks for joining us!

[@wendyfoster5579]

And the swaddling was what was done to sacrificial lambs to keep them free of blemish ❤

[@TheScripturesAreReal]

Interesting! Where would I learn about that?

[@lamarnewmeyer2747]

Great comment! Thank you for joining us and Merry Christmas!

[@wendyfoster5579]

Shepherds kept watch over their sheep and when they gave birth they marked the spotless ones for temple sacrifice. Each spotless lamb was caught in the hands of the shepherd before touching the ground and carefully wrapped in swaddling clothes as a sign of purity.

[@TheScripturesAreReal]

@@wendyfoster5579 That is great stuff! What is the source for that?

[@brandahmessenger433]

The world will always challenge…: ‘who do you think you are’. It’s powerful to know and say ‘I am’

[@TheScripturesAreReal]

Hopefully we can always stay true to our divine identity.

[@phyllisdutson6221]

This has been such an interesting podcast, Kerry and Lamar. Thank you for these insights into the lives of Mary amd Joseph and their customs at that time. There is so much to learn beyond the simple stories we have heard forever. Merry Christmas to everyone and especially to those of you who make this possible and teach us so much.

[@TheScripturesAreReal]

So glad it was helpful for you. I am so happy if any of this helps us think through the lives of these amazing people and what we can learn from them! Merry Christmas!

[@lamarnewmeyer2747]

Merry Christmas to you and thank you for joining us! Hope to see you next year!

[@juliannemuhlestein4603]

I love to think more deeply about details surrounding the Christmas story. Thank you

[@TheScripturesAreReal]

Glad you enjoyed it!

[@lamarnewmeyer2747]

Thank Julianne! Great to hear from you!

[@lauraanderson743]

This was excellent.

[@TheScripturesAreReal]

I am so glad you enjoyed it!

[@lamarnewmeyer2747]

Thanks for your comment and for joining us!

[@evalinavallo5009]

I love this discussion. Thank you.

[@TheScripturesAreReal]

Glad you enjoyed it!

[@lamarnewmeyer2747]

Thanks for joining us, Merry Christmas!

[@jenalynhancock3874]

Nice! You should go on ward radio next and talk about cool Egypt stuff!

[@TheScripturesAreReal]

That would end up being fun and funny. It probably can't happen right now, but it would be a trip!

[@christineamclearly-halton1581]

That was amazing , Thank you Terry, Lamarr and Andrea for all you shared . ❤ Merry Christmas from Perth, Australia?

[@lamarnewmeyer2747]

Thank you for joining us, all the way in Australia!!! I hope you have a Merry Christmas as well!

[@TheScripturesAreReal]

I am so very glad it helped you! Merry (or Happy?) Christmas to you down under!

[@phyllisaycock1880]

Andrea is the ish!❤

[@TheScripturesAreReal]

She certainly gets you thinking, doesn't she? I am so grateful for that!

[@lamarnewmeyer2747]

Glad you enjoyed Andrea, we are so glad she could join us. And thank you for joining us!

[@andrewbfrost7021]

This is why Psalm 49 is all about Shepherd language. Psalms are temple hymns/prayers.

[@TheScripturesAreReal]

Many of them are!

[@joycegrover1146]

We seem to have Christ spoken more often as being from David! Seems Joseph’s line usually overshadows Mary’s line which genetically was his physical makeup not from Joseph literally!

[@TheScripturesAreReal]

It is hard to tell what is thought of as Joseph's line. We know Mary was related to those from the tribe of Levi, but I believe she is descended from Judah. Some traditions hold that Mary's mother was from Levi and her father from Judah. Some traditions hold that the genealogy provided by Luke is Mary's. Others hold that the two genealogies are both her father's but presented from different viewpoints. In the end we really know little about either of them, and we don't really know what we know about Mary's lineage. That makes it hard to focus too much on her descendancy.

[@UVJ_Scott]

Here’s a kind of a summary explanation: 1 Now the sons of Reuben the firstborn of Israel, (for he was the firstborn; but, forasmuch as he defiled his father’s bed, his birthright was given unto the sons of Joseph the son of Israel: and the genealogy is not to be reckoned after the birthright. 2 For Judah prevailed above his brethren, and of him came the chief ruler; but the birthright was Joseph’s:) 1 Chronicles 5

[@lamarnewmeyer2747]

Good comment, thanks for joining us! Merry Christmas!

[@QuickCanon]

Nice

[@lamarnewmeyer2747]

Thank you! I hope you join us again!

[@TheScripturesAreReal]

I am so glad you found it to be helpful. I also hope you will join us for next season. We have the best guests lined up imaginable!

[@mamablux21family30]

Love this discussion so much! Is there any update on when Andrea’s book will be coming out?

[@TheScripturesAreReal]

She is still working on it. I think it is quite a way off.

[@dolce9876]

❤❤❤

[@TheScripturesAreReal]

I am so happy if this helped you.

[@lamarnewmeyer2747]

Hearts to you for joining us!

[@dianepeterson8700]

Do you or any of you know of a list of all the names of Christ? I know there are over 100. I would be so grateful!

[@TheScripturesAreReal]

I do not know of anyone who has compiled all of them. President Holland did quite a bit with it.

[@joycegrover1146]

Where do we find what went on in that first temple? The higher priesthood was lost to them as a people at Mt S! Sacrifice went on in the tabernacle ! Not present day doings! I can see the ancient temple rituals in Egypt but not in Israel after brought out of Egypt! So many try to relate scriptures to temple ritual! Present day! I can see it in ancient time with Adam to Noah but, with Solomon’s temple I don’t think people brought to a veil but only high priest was allowed into Holy of Holies! Anyway, Iam confused and would like to understand!

[@TheScripturesAreReal]

Everything we know about what happened in the first temple we know from the Old Testament. We know a fair bit about the rituals from that source. I think Andrea draws on the work of Margaret Barker. I agree with much of what Barker has done, but not as much as Andrea and others agree with her. I think she is right in that we can sense that after the Babylonian exile Judaism shifted from some of what it had been. I also believe that over time, meaning that throughout the entire Old Testament story, and especially between the Babylonian captivity and the coming of Christ, there was a shift in what the covenant focus was and that there was a loss of many elements of the covenant, especially the element of sharing the covenant. We learn that from the Book of Abraham and elsewhere. You are absolutely right, that the higher gospel was lost long before this, at the time of Sinai.

[@lamarnewmeyer2747]

I will defer to Kerry on this. I have heard and read things from Margaret Barker but I don't have a deep enough background to say if I agree or disagree and how much. I think it's interesting and I'll let Kerry and the other OT scholars hash out what is verifiable. Merry Christmas!

[@rando7th]

The sermon on the mount is probably an endowment with some of the 1st temple content. Also Nephi said that he knew the mysteries ie he was endowded. Check out "In the Language of Adam" by D. J. Butler. He has also done youtube interviews with Stick of Joseph and others.

[@rando7th]

So we can also get 1st temple information from Nephi and descendents.

[@TheScripturesAreReal]

@@rando7th Well, yes, but no. First, in Nephi's day the First Temple was operating in an incredibly corrupt way which was not in keeping with what the temple was supposed to be about, and was part of the reason the temple was destroyed. Also, we don't know how much Nephi knew of the First Temple, and also he doesn't really tell us anything about the temple. He certainly built a temple, so he certainly knew something about them, but he seems to have been operating under a higher law conception, so we can't really tell us what was going on with the First Temple by looking to Nephi, he had a more true temple understanding than they did.

[@brianbacon3106]

So the struggle appears to be the same as Sinai? The fear of coming into the presence of the Lord? Is it correct to understand the first temple period had a focus on coronation covenants and ordinances - the keys, as it were, to coming into G*ds presence and this understanding or doctrinal development was lossed or at least lessened in the second temple period? The second temple period is diluted because it becomes an ethical gospel focusing on day to day living and being a good person rather than ascent or striving for exaltation? I suppose a salvation gospel alone much like the evangelical movement has become today? Sister Woodmansee has related so much of the story to the temple. Do you feel Alfred Edersheim’s observations that the “tower of the flock” Migdal Eder where the Levitical priests who tended to the sheep born for the temple sacrifice were the keepers of the place the savior was born. The water of life was in the manger of the sheep that represent him. The swaddling clothes were to protect these sheep and now he is wrapped in them and the Shepards were temple priests who would be awaiting him and would bear a legitimate testimony like the high priest who saw similar if not the same angel. Likewise I’m always perplexed that we surmise Mary was called like we might be called to a church position. Joseph Smith endured a life in a blender stating that he had seen G*d and could not deny his testimony because he knew it and he knew G*d knew it. I often wonder why we assume that the angel did not provide a hope or knowledge to Mary, and Joseph for that matter, that would not be an “anchor to their souls” pertaining to how they would progress through the challenges of her pregnancy. Much like Joseph Smiths testimony that urged him on through so much adversity. That song, “ Mary Did You Know” always strikes me as so annoying because it denies the power of G*d in Mary’s circumstances and focuses the listeners to the arm of flesh and a worldly view. Keeping in mind this conversation started at the temple and coming into the presence of the Lord I think Mary had an advanced degree in His presence. Excellent show thank you for helping the audience to stretch into deeper thinking and discipleship. Very well done. Great end to the year.

[@TheScripturesAreReal]

Wow, what a well thought out and number of thoughts. Let me try to address some of what you have said. I don't think we can say that we know how much of a shift there was between the first and second temple in terms of covenant focus. There certainly was a different focus on the law, etc., but they were always struggling with maintaining the right focus throughout the entire Old Testament. I like much of what Edersheim did, but I don't know that we know all that much about the temple flocks. I think most of what we say about what Mary knew and didn't know stems from thinking that we have all of Gabriel's words to her (which we can't be sure of), and from phrases about her storing up words, wondering, etc. I would guess that she was given some assurance, but I would also guess that she held views of the Messiah that matched just about everyone else in her culture. I look forward to the day when we really know more about what she and Joseph understood.

[@brianbacon3106]

@ thank you for the kind response

[@TheScripturesAreReal]

@@brianbacon3106 I hope it was helpful. If there is something I didn't quite understand please let me know. Merry Christmas!

[@brandahmessenger433]

Human nature hasn’t changed at all. Let’s talk about the Davidic servant…..❤

[@TheScripturesAreReal]

I am not sure I understand.

[@lorettashaver5635]

Are you a descendant of Emma Hill Woodmansee, pioneer poet, who wrote As Sisters I Zion?

[@TheScripturesAreReal]

I am not sure Andrea is seeing this, but I will pass it along to her.

[@monicatowns5559]

He is the living water put into the stone water trough.

[@TheScripturesAreReal]

I love that image and idea!

[@lamarnewmeyer2747]

I had that same reaction when we discussed "Stone Manger", I like that idea! Merry Christmas!

[@brandahmessenger433]

No doubt Mary already walked with the lord

[@TheScripturesAreReal]

She was so submissive to him, as was her son.

[@brandahmessenger433]

@ if Simeon lived via the Holy Ghost no doubt Mary already did too

[@brandahmessenger433]

Her family… all the more reason her situation was a trial of Abraham….

[@TheScripturesAreReal]

Please explain a little more to me about what you mean.

[@brandahmessenger433]

@@TheScripturesAreReal the examples we have in scripture are a path to ascension. I believe. I also believe to those degrees, the richeous all face their own Abraham-esque trials. Move here move there, avoid these sacrificial practices… ok now do it if you love me! Say whaaat?!! (Trial of faith goes here, next). What I wanted most in life and was good at…. I lost to obey the Lord. (Egypt) but….. proverbs 3;5 I’m reminded. I have no doubt the situation God set up with the birth of our Savior was a trial of Abraham for every richeous soul involved. In ways and details not in print, or at least combined in print. In 2017 when the system was trying to make me pay unjustly for my obedience… the spirit said ‘now Paul.’ I did four months in jail on false charges…. And stayed grateful. And the spirit saw me through each day.

[@TheScripturesAreReal]

@@brandahmessenger433 Ah, I understand now. And yes, I think this was completely and fully an Abrahamic sacrifice on the part of Mary and Joseph. And it is an inspiration and example for us all. I am glad the false charges are over for you! That is no fun! Bless you!

[@brandahmessenger433]

@ my stories not over ;). Thank you

[@brandahmessenger433]

@@TheScripturesAreReal I try not to prognosticate, contrive, but I am onto second layer (at least) consideration and questioning. And to consider what the whole experience must’ve been like personally for Mary and Joseph and their backstory lives, ironies and hearts sensitivies…. I can only imagine.

[@brandahmessenger433]

Wasn’t Mary betrothed because imran had already died? Joseph much older to care for her? Isn’t it interesting the way everyone has their own trial of Abraham…. Mary beneath the tree alone in labor, in the beginning as in the end…Joseph running for a midwife alone through the night for a new life (x2) …. His backstory vs a pregnant Mary? Curious. And god puting everyone in a circumstance to choose doing the right thing over culture and law. How very special. Same patterns through time. Ours if we want them. ❤

[@TheScripturesAreReal]

The apocryphal stories about Mary are certainly fun and interesting, but are unlikely to be true.

[@brandahmessenger433]

@ what about the Quran….. too many in our culture read ‘placed and found as ‘born in a manger’

[@wendyfoster5579]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/mJ6nZWRvrbp3asUsi=XEggOd1NUIrkKoik Jeff Chadwick episode 1

[@TheScripturesAreReal]

Thanks for that link. That was a good one!

[@lamarnewmeyer2747]

I really liked that episode, thanks for pinning that here!

[@dianepeterson8700]

Do you or any of you know of a list of all the names of Christ? I know there are over 100. I would be so grateful!

[@TheScripturesAreReal]

I do not know of anyone who has compiled all of them. President Holland did quite a bit with it.

[@safrew1]

I am learning more types of Christ every day as I read the Scriptures. As far as actual names, I wonder if many of those might be included. For instance- the "rock" , the Red Sea etc.