S35 Telluride Accident Update

[@tycotoys]

This guy explains everything in detail and is very interesting to listen too.

[@BostonBuzz]

Pilot went to the same high school as my kids here near Boston. He was very much loved and respected, very inspirational, even came back to the high school a couple times as an honored guest.

[@steveasher9239]

I managed a small airport at 7000'. Learned about all of this and scraped through with no incidents (while doing sight seeing flights in the nearby mountains). I took one sight seeing flight with a high DA and heavy pax and really had to use what skill I had to gain an experience I didn't want to repeat. To say the least a lesson I didn't ignore and will never forget. Sadly some friends didn't make it through. Nothing wrong with a high airport, if you know what you're doing.

[@TheAirplaneDriver]

I’m a flatland pilot but I have flow across the Rockies several times including a couple of trips in my Cessna 140. You learn pretty quick that a loaded up 85 HP airplane can easily become a death trap in rising terrain and high DA situations. It is a humbling experience to realize that the ground can seemingly reach up and snatch you out of the air if you don’t pay attention.

[@edsal26]

I would bet that most aviation accidents have had the thought “ ah it’ll be ok.. we’ll make it.” Stretching the envelope doesn’t always end in tragedy but all tragedy always has stretching the envelope in there somewhere.

[@gracelandone]

Your match of empathy and physics is rare. Heartfelt advice is so much more effective when you back it up with knowledge built on personal experience. Nicely and respectfully done.

[@gtarick1225]

Scott you're the best! No nonsense, no frills, just the facts and what can we learn. Keep up the great work!

[@neatstuff1988]

This is totally explainable scott, because the man is a first officer at united. I've had a few first officers that needed no critique of their performance because it was outstanding, but that is truly the exception. He was in love and that is a factor in this examination. the best first officer I ever had was aspiring to be an air show pilot and ended up killing himself in a performance . I'm just saying that this man was overcome with emotion, and he should not have been at the controls in this situation to begin with. Flying is hard enough without it, but impossible with it.😊

[@pamshewan9181]

Thank you for this Scott. The pilot was a graduate of a local Aeronautical college (Embry Riddle) and many people here (Daytona Beach) knew the couple. Very sad. 😔

[@kevincollins8014]

Yet another respectful well thought out and right to the point video Scott. I've said this before and I'm going to say it again. You do an incredible job getting your point across without a bunch of unnecessary drama so thank you brother.

[@michaelhodges8312]

Same thing happened to a 182 Skylane, 3 men on board in between Telluride and Ouray going up Yankee Boy Basin. Remember going to crash sight just after it happened when I was little kid around 1970.

[@GenoSalvati]

I worked at the top of a 13k mountain for a bit. 50 knot winds over the ridge are enough to shut down ski lifts. They will take small or medium sized objects and throw them around like toys. Conditions can change completely in minutes.

[@portmod797]

I flew my wife into KTEX from N19 in our 182G the day before this incident for an anniversary lunch. The flight in wasn't bad, still early enough in the day that the winds hadn't kicked up. We got done with lunch at around 12:30 and headed back to the airport, and the winds had started. Up at the field it was breezy, but nothing too alarming. Initial takeoff went fine, and we were gaining altitude nicely, following the canyon out to the west to the Cones VOR to make the turn south back to N19. We had gained 1000'+ over field elevation when the rate of climb went to zero with indicated at max climb. Fortunately, it never got any worse, we were able to at least maintain altitude for what seemed like an eternity. As we exited the canyon we were able to continue our climb and the rest of the flight was uneventful. I am unsure if I'll ever make that trip again, and certainly will not attempt any flying in those mountains after noon again. And then, the next day, the news of this crash. Eeesh..... From time to time I like to fly north and get "close" to the mountains for the view, but when they start getting in the 9-10k MSL range, I like to turn around and go back down the hill.

[@rustyclam238]

This would be a great video for CFI’s to show their students. I live in South Florida pretty much at sea level with no mountains, and density altitude was not all that critical when I was learning to fly in the 80s. It’s definitely something that you need to be aware of no matter where you fly.

[@paulbrunner1818]

I DO fly in/out of Telluride and know the terrain, and I ALWAYS go west before heading East, once gaining altitude. Above Bridal Vails Falls, it gets steep and narrows fast.

[@jfkastner]

Great analysis, thank you. RIP Lindsey and Costas

[@jimmydulin928]

Good job Scott. Other than better planning, the key observation you made was that a descending turn would have been much safer in a high DA turn with limited horizontal space available. As instructors we really need to emphasize that using elevator to maintain altitude in turns is not always safe. The airplane is designed to use vertical space available (dynamic neutral stability) in turns to prevent stall. As pilots we need to listen to Wolfgang (Stick and Rudder): "What does the airplane want todo?"

[@bartonrobinett3790]

In a sense a level turn is an aerobatic maneuver because the airplane does NOT want to do it. Left to it’s own devices the airplane will drop it’s nose in a turn, that’s what it “wants to do” and when you try to keep it from doing that in a low energy high DA condition bad things happen. This accident is so very sad on several levels including the fact that, as Scott very diplomatically points out, it was an unnecessary risk to take for a picture. I wonder if the photographer got the photo they were trying for? Pretty tough to look at it now if he did.

[@MichaelLloyd]

I was living in Farmington, NM when this accident happened. That kind of news travels fast in the aviation community. Everyone I talked to said it probably had a density altitude component. I flew out of KFMN quite a bit over the last 4 years. All I had access to fly was an older C172B and a C172RG. There's no way I would have flown to KTEX or tried to fly out of KTEX that day in those aircraft or even now. The Bonanza, obviously, has more power available than even the C172RG had but it also has more weight. I wonder what the power to weight ratio difference is... KFMN elevation is 5,507' and right now (00:39 UTC on 12/4/22), in the winter, the ASOS for KFMN is reporting a DA of 5,880'. Most of the time, in the summer, we had 9,000' and higher DA's. That doesn't leave altitude to climb to between the ground and the service ceiling of a C172. Toss in some mountains (no thanks) and there's no sense in flying in the afternoon. KTEX elevation is 9,070' and right now (00:40 UTC on 12/4/22) the ASOS for KTEX is reporting a DA of 9,586'. It's winter up there (41 degrees F). Imagine what it's like on a summer afternoon. Look at the terrain on a sectional chart. It's brutal. If you're a sea level pilot and you fly up there- PAY ATTENTION TO DENSITY ALTITUDE. When I was getting checked out to fly down her in TX (KPKV) the instructor caught me off guard when he pulled the power and declared that we had an engine fire. The FIRST thing I did was push the nose down when I heard power fall off. Since I nearly crapped my pants, because I believed him, lol the second thing I did was look for the engine fire procedure in the checklist. We've since flown a lot more hours together as I work on my instrument rating. I don't know which instructor or instructors instilled the push down reaction to loss of power but I'm grateful for it. Hell... maybe it was accident reports on KZbin... I doubt it...

[@MalcolmRuthven]

Scott, that is a great update. I agree with everything you said except for possibly "his reaction was a normal human reaction [pulling back on the stick/yolk] and without training I don't think most people can avoid that". I would argue that our training as pilots should be enough to have us do the right thing and not the wrong thing in this situation. I can think of at least one instance in my flying experience where I (through a big mistake on my part) was confronted with, not long after takeoff so very low, a blaring stall-warning horn and a large hill in front. My training did kick in and I did the right thing (or I wouldn't be here writing this).

[@lessharratt8719]

Now that would be a tough situation to be in.

[@johnfitzpatrick2469]

Would the plane lift (sustainable rate of climb) or did you take off from the wrong end? 🌏🇭🇲

[@MalcolmRuthven]

@@johnfitzpatrick2469 I turned onto the (fairly short) runway from the taxiway and took off, not noticing that it wasn't the beginning of the runway. I left almost 1/3 of the runway unused. My training did kick in and I lowered (not raised) the nose until the stall warner stopped blaring and started a very gradual turn away from that hill.

[@paulkearns8838]

I get choked up a bit also thinking of poor unfortunate folks and their families, even though they may be strangers. It’s called empathy. We could use a lot more of that in today’s world.

[@RobtheAviator]

You are a good man Paul. God Bless you

[@tetreaulthank4068]

As Scott has said, Hearing this horribly tragic accident for a 2nd time still puts a lump in my throat and so saddens me for doubt devastated families

[@daszieher]

So you talk about how the world would be a better place, if more people were like you? In the comment section of an accident analysis video? Are you serious or trolling for comments? How about a little more sensitivity for contextual contributions? 😄

[@beachbum77979]

@@daszieher If Paul was trolling for comments, you took the bait. If you were trolling for comments, you got your reply.

[@daszieher]

@@beachbum77979 yes, I was aware that I could be seen as taking the bait. 😉

[@pamshewan9181]

Thank you for this report Scott.

[@gittnjiggy2]

You are Right, Flying is Serious Business! Thank You Scott, another Video with no frills and no BS, just the Facts.. So sorry for the families and friends of those lost lives. All for a memory for Life, but became a Life's Memory.

[@billeudy8481]

I wish you continued success with your channel. These postmortems are helpful for pilots who have the foresight and discipline to take advantage of an opportunity to learn from your experience and mistakes of others. Your videos provide an excellent way to train pilots of all experience levels to rise above the distractions, oversights that lead to accidents and the knee-jerk reactions and involuntary instincts that that are so likely to fail in a critical moment of truth when the proper response is imperative to survival. Moreover, by focusing more narrowly on mishaps involving Barons and Bonanzas you’re providing an even greater service to the pilot’s who operate these aircraft. Thank you for your deliberate, meticulous and thoughtful approach to this work.

[@FlyWirescottperdue]

Thanks Bill!

[@garydwater2112]

Thanks!

[@FlyWirescottperdue]

Thanks Gary!

[@garydwater2112]

@@FlyWirescottperdue you’re welcome Scott, you contribute accurate and mindful information for Aviation.

[@wicked1172]

A very informative and rivetting debrief of this tragic accident, thank you Scott.

[@MachTuck]

Your accident analysis are very interesting to hear Scott, they make all the sense. 👍

[@47mphill]

The photo shoot factor makes more sense of this accident. Ghanks for the update

[@rickowens396]

Your closing was worth waiting for. I flew from Waco to Show Low to visit family after getting my ticket. I planned & planned, ect. Made some small mistakes but was a long successful trip. Did it 2x's. Was in my 50's then. 72 now and would not attempt. I could do the fly but not the plan as you said.

[@albradley5527]

I lived by these words for 48 years of flying. They kept me alive. Every time you fly you take a piece of luck from the luck bucket and put it in the experience bucket. If you fly long enough you will find that the luck bucket is empty. That’s when the experience bucket will save your life.

[@Booboobear-eo4es]

Some people empty their luck bucket before they have put very much into their experience bucket. They are not around anymore.

[@BixbyConsequence]

@@Booboobear-eo4es No old, bold pilots.

[@davidmangold1838]

I like that analogy. Never heard it. Dave, with 54 years flying and 28,000 total hours. No accidents, incidents or violations. I’d imagine my luck-bucket is almost empty. Thankfully I have a lot of experience, in case… will fly my bonanza for another year, then quit flying.

[@albradley5527]

@@davidmangold1838 the airlines retire their pilots at 65 for a reason. The memory starts to fade around that age. I never flew airlines but I was flying for an EMS company. Around 66 I noticed a couple things that I NEVER FORGOT well, I forgot. So I gave it up and retired before someone got hurt.

[@davidmangold1838]

@@albradley5527 I’ll be 70 in January. As for flying, i don’t forget anything. I could hop in a 767 tomorrow (18,000 hours in it) and fly it safely (I remember the limitations and flows and checklists). Only things I seem to forget, is what the wife just said, her birthday and our anniversary 🤪. On those, I’m consistent for many years passed.

[@FarkyDave]

Scott, this was a great follow up video. After watching the first video, I didn't understand why they wouldn't have made more circuits around the airport to gain altitude to get over the crest of the mountain. The added information about possibly scouting for a photo shoot location provides a bit of an ah-ha moment as to why they didn't seek a higher altitude. Either way, it is tragic. Thanks for your analysis. I always enjoy your videos.

[@Joe_Not_A_Fed]

Thanks, Scott.

[@mikemaloney5830]

I’m a Colorado pilot.....”no fooling around with physics “are words to LIVE by. Early on I was taught “fly the wing” meaning power will not rescue you. Turn radius is much wider at the same “ indicated” airspeed when at high altitude. This is not as noticeable in the open sky. When in between mountains it’s critical.

[@FlyWirescottperdue]

Exactly Mike!!!

[@billylain7456]

Thanks again, Scott for another excellent video.

[@nancychace8619]

Thanks for a thoughtful review. Good lessons to be learned here. I think sometimes pilots miscalculate their limitations, like when DA or an altitude previously not experienced are factors. I knew a very good pilot, well versed as far as anyone could tell, who apparently miscalculated his Cessna's ability on a hot day taking off with a lot of weight. It didn't go well. Always good not to push your limitations too close to the edge. Leave yourself some room to maneuver -

[@FlyWirescottperdue]

Great comment Nancy, thanks!

[@jimdavis1939]

Scott, excellent analysis as always. This one was particularly tragic.

[@owenlibby4413]

Excellent job! Thank you.

[@kenlewis11]

Thanks Scott. He just didn’t have an out up there in that confined basin. Always gotta have an out in flying.

[@nicholaskennedy4310]

50 yr pilot and 46 yr Telluride local here. This accident was awful. For the Family's and Search and Rescue and San Miguel Co deputy's and Sheriff to have to go up there and get those people, It wasn't pretty to say the least. Why would that pilot do such a foolish thing ?/ For a PICTURE?? Scott discussed DA DA goes up 2% per thousand feet. so say True airspeed goes up about 26% at 13K, thats ALOT You turn radius increases dramatically. Normally aspirated engine with the mixture full in in beyond my comprehension??!! The engine would be barely running IMHO at that density elevation at full rich, I wonder if that picture is correct? If it is Man oh Man thats a major rookie mistake to say the least.. The San Juan Mountains of Colorado are some of the highest and radical of the whole Rocky Mt Chain, makes Aspen look easy and way safer. I hike Ingram/ Bridal Veil Basins area every summer and fly my glider and C 172 all over this area. in the summer. You have to have solid real experience to do this for long. DON'T HIT THE MOUNTAIN!! #1 RULE OF MOUNTAIN FLYING

[@patrickfreeman8257]

Clearly. when you say that you're broken hearted about something, it's not just words.

[@joefinn1100]

Excellent analysis and recommendations Scott! You may save some lives with this, good work and Thank You!

[@michaelwilliamsd.o.5006]

Top shelf review as always. Sad story

[@parkburrets4054]

I tried to get some friends to build up to flying formation like we had seen in a magazine in which one of us would fly inverted close to the other one. I fully appreciated that it would take many flights to safely develop the skills. My buddies dismissed the idea realizing that the skills would have to be developed in an environment that we could never develop on our own.

[@FlyWirescottperdue]

Good judgement. Flying formation of any kind takes hours and hours of dedicated work!

[@wayneroyal3137]

Good analysis, i am saddened at all of these types of accidents, getting trapped in the mountains is not something that all pilots think about. Tragic and I hope people that fly at high altitude in the mountains learn from this

[@SafakSahin]

nice one, thank you!

[@HootisGarage]

Great work Scott

[@willhibbardii2450]

Thanks, Scott, for keeping this mishap updated. The loss of precious folks to learn a lesson does put a lump in our throats. What I glean from this horrible tragedy... A series of laundry list errors were initiated for this mishap that perhaps only experience operating a Cropduster may/might have overcome at the final moments. If the airspeed is up 10 degrees flaps is a climb out option to clear an obstacle while turning back into the relative wind combined with keeping IAS up. This is why dropping 10 degrees of flaps when turning base is primary training!!! Adding flaps while making the turn facilitates a tighter turn ability... High Density Altitude with a loaded aircraft requires extra speed and keeping its speed and inertia ahead of the power curve... Low and slow the aircraft loses options! A controlled emergency downwind off airport landing is a better option than auguring in when the walls close in and the aircraft can't turn back into the relative wind to climb back out. How to impart this experience to today's GA fledgling aviators will be challenging. When operating at higher altitudes, leaner mixture and higher speed... If the pass is narrowing, get turned back into the relative wind before running out of airspace... The center of the valley might be the off-airport runway to land is situational awareness! keeping the altitude to turn back as if you're landing back to the center of the valley is your altitude indicator to proceed or not facilitates room for AGL judgement error... Keep the sunny side up and don't run into anything... Prayer to the families of these precious people...

[@FlyWirescottperdue]

Great observation Will!

[@willhibbardii2450]

Scott, thanks for producing your valuable videos. Your audience comments are also what I enjoy reading. This is probably the best hanger talk channel that's existing. I've spent/enjoyed considerable time flying the D model which is my personal favorite... Bonanzas are the best for efficacy room and comfort! They can turn very tight, but you have to know how to ride the buffet which I was taught by very experienced previous Bonanza instructors. There are many small nuances that flight school 101 always relates to that when recalled make sense such as adding a little flaps to tighten a turn... I'm learning to fly my 1968 SIAI Marchetti 206 proficiently... Not many presently existing. The knowledge base of operating this aircraft is limited to a very small group one of which I'm working with. This bird has over 40 degrees flaps controlled by a hand stick like the old Cessna 172s. Laminar flow wings like a Mooney but a much wider roomer cockpit. Very reasonable compromise when considering the baggage compartment/5th seat is rated at 174 Pounds. Not quite as fast as a Mooney but very efficient with the naturally aspirated Franklin 6A-350, 220 HP 8 GPH fuel burn at altitude. This engine has a harmonic balancer that produces smooth running characteristics. The backup engine is about to be completely reconditioned though the present powerplant just tested with 80/76 compression test and is proving reliable with considerable time remaining. I'm presently updating the instrument panel to my taste and preferences. I sold my 1963 C- Mooney with speed modifications in 2008 which I flew in my business and enjoyed for many years. My brother-in-law flew his 35 P model with the 300 HP upgrade engine, but he couldn't keep up with our Mooney, but I enjoyed flying his plane and was able to impart and demonstrate my training concerning that aircraft type. I'm engineering the speed mods now for the Marchetti. I enjoy your channel and hope to meet you one day and shake your hand! Please keep up your good works...

[@safeinmyheart1]

Scott - I felt your pain when you choked up. I’m not a pilot, though many years ago I considered becoming one via Embry Riddle. My heart breaks for this couple and their loved ones - no doubt they would have had many happy years together. Thank you for your wonderful videos. Stay safe and well, my friend. 💜

[@liberareview3567]

She was giving him a knobber and he yelled im going to come! and then he spiraled out of control with a smile !

[@liberareview3567]

She was giving him a knobber and he yelled im going to come! and then he spiraled out of control with a smile !

[@lynnhawkins799]

Great video. Very sad case. I noticed the mixture was full forward. At that DA I would think an IO-520 would have been way too rich and not producing nearly as much power as it would if it was leaned to Max power? Did the pilot forget to lean as he climbed? I would have thought that he would of had to have leaned for takeoff? Maybe the mixture control was pulled full forward when the airplane was disassembled? Thanks.

[@dermick]

Very good point. I think unless we can get the engine monitoring data, we'll never know. Even a full forward mixture photo at the crash site could have been caused by something pushing it forward during the crash.

[@FlyWirescottperdue]

The airplane was not leaned for the DA and that was a factor in power production. the design of the vernier controls for MP/Mixture and prop are very resistant to being pulled or pushed in accidentally.. So, I believe they are where the pilot set them. The fuselage was NOT disassembled, including the engine. You can see that in the picture I showed.

[@Saltlick11]

Wonderful video, heartfelt but instructive

[@GeezerGeekPilot]

Scott, another good review of the evidence. Doesn't seem that the Mixture (05:25 "all full forward") was properly leaned for the high DA?? I would have thought the mixture would have been ~halfway out. Wayne (DA40 KSBA)

[@FlyWirescottperdue]

Doesn't look like it was leaned at all....

[@alscustomerservice187]

Very informative analysis. I fly into Telluride frequently. It is an airport and an area requiring a bit of measure every time i've flown into it. Thank you for your thoughts on this accident.

[@DWBurns]

If you want info about the roads, I play Jeep on them as often as my wife, and now my body will let me, I know them well. The road in the basin of the crash is Black Bear Pass Road. Black Bear starts on Red Mountain Pass US 550 between Ouray and Silverton. Black Bear is ONE WAY into Telluride. (Two way traffic to the powerhouse) I would have posted the photographer on Imogene Pass that has an excellent view of Bridal Veil Falls and powerhouse. Imogene would have been on the aircraft’s left side going uphill and got the shot they wanted it would be a stunning right side photo. If I can offer any help at all contact me. We can go Jeeping in July.

[@tuxedotservo]

"... and there's just no fooling around with physics - there just isn't..." (long pause) I think we all feel that. It sucks that another lesson had to be at the expense of a young couple...

[@parkburrets4054]

Could you please make a video about what you should do if you get yourself in a really bad situation? Ex. Flying into riding terrain, but can’t turn around: push the nose down to get enough speed then pull up to land as best you can off-field.

[@FlyWirescottperdue]

A forced landing would probably have been his best choice in that situation. Under control at the slowest possible speed.

[@WolfPilot]

Good video Scott!

[@EricSimoneau]

Another amazing and informative video. Thanks for taking the time to do these videos.

[@dougschwieder3627]

I've wondered if when pilots find themselves in a no win situation like this if the best option would be to try to land/stall at the lowest speed possible going upslope above the tree line before the slope goes vertical. The biggest obstacles would be rocks and vertical walls. It looks here like it could have been crash landed on a grassy upslope. I grew up in Denver and would get altitude sickness when going "climbing" 14ers with my brother. Perhaps if pilots could do some hiking in the mountains and see how it affects their breathing they could translate that to engine performance at these altitudes.

[@imaPangolin]

Good Job Scott.

[@zekeonstormpeak4186]

The pilot was experienced in high performance airline jets. The problem is he was in an aircraft that couldn’t perform in the situation he was in. Always leave yourself an out, if your aircraft can’t climb to the altitude you need to clear the terrain in front of you. The Wichita State crash in 1970 should be a mandatory training for any pilot that does mountain flying. Flying into a box canyon, without performance to clear high terrain, without a plan B, is paramount here.

[@mattj65816]

I sim myself around the country in the winter in an effort to maintain some semblance of IFR currency (the real thing is difficult in Wisconsin in the winter.) I happened to go through Telluride last week. It was kind of horrifying. Heading down that localizer approach after dark from the comfort and safety of my sim closet, it was pretty clear that this is something I’d never do in real life in the piddly little aircraft I fly. The departure procedures send you west to climb over a nearby VOR. Even if I were visual, that’s probably where I’d do my climbing.

[@daszieher]

Funny that you mention it. Many still scoff at simming to stay somewhat proficient. While the fidelity of the simulator might not be on target, systems are modelled quite accurately and can help you stay in the mindset. I'd think that the fact that the "aircraft" eats up space at a predetermined rate is good for staying ahead ....

[@Dilley_G45]

My favorite aviation incident channel 👍🏻. But I also follow Mentour and Blancoliry 😉

[@nicholaskennedy4310]

Scott did the final NTSB report ever come out on this accident?

[@FlyWirescottperdue]

Yes, its out.Nothing of significance there at all. A lecture on Mountain Flying.

[@donstor1]

You speak the truth Scott. You come from a background of military flying with the discipline that goes with it flying high performance jets so for you, meticulous planning and strict perimeters are second nature. These days, you can’t get the public to stop for the stop sign anymore let alone extra planning for a photo shoot. Sadly I see them making the same old mistakes. Great work Captain.

[@henrykaldenbaugh2313]

The laws of physics will not deviate one micron, regardless of how much you want it to!

[@Qrail]

Remembering the 3 D’s, and Rule # 1. Important stuff.

[@trumpsmessage7777]

I remember the first video well. This definitely fits the "dumb, different and dangerous" category. Emotion based photo-shoots at high-density altitude sounds challenging at best.

[@daszieher]

It could have been done safely, if the pilot had just not opted to turn inside the basin. Like many have already said: a more sweeping, descending turn would have been the better option to line up the S35 for the shot.

[@righthandgo]

Sigh. The moment I saw the picture of the mixture full rich.... That engine was making way less than peak power at that altitude and with the mixture full rich. Coupled with the flap setting that plane was severely crippled and performance. I learned to fly in the California desert with a field elevation of 1,888' and on 112° days we had a density altitude of 5,300'. I made sure I asked my instructor about leaning procedures and I spent a ton of time on my own watching videos and reading up on the topic so I fully understood the ramifications. This was training in 150 horsepower Cherokee. With our leaded fuels anytime we're over 3,000 density altitude You should be leaning for takeoff. If you don't understand the procedure there's plenty of videos out there on it and it's incredibly simple. At the altitude of telluride it is inconceivable to me to not be leaned for max power on takeoff. A sad tale and hopefully a lesson learned for many.

[@lbowsk]

"Dumb, Different or Dangerous" I like that. Thank you.

[@bradrobinhancock8491]

I would like to see your assessment of the accident involving a Cessna 205 at KCPT on 12/04/2022. N8149Z. Two experienced pilots (Both CFII, Commercial and ATP).

[@FlyWirescottperdue]

I’ve been looking at that. Will do something on Saturday on it… standby.

[@philo5096]

Whats scarey as hell is this guy was an airline pilot and he didn't understand density altitude.

[@FlyWirescottperdue]

Honestly, the way airliners fly these days DA isn't quite as big a deal. Nowadays thrust is not an issue.

[@raccoon874]

*stupid games get you really stupid prizes.. all that money and potential down the toilet for a 'social media photo op'*

[@philipcobbin3172]

Thanks for the update. Most aircraft do not have technical data available on turn performance. Particularly at high Density Altitude. Putting new panel in my RV7-A with a data collection system to allow going back through the first phase flight testing to "blueprint" the performance. Stalls, take off and landing distance and turn performance are key metrics to collect. I fly a lot in the high density altitude environment in Northern Arizona. Even RV's with a 200 hp IO360 have to deal with density altitude, especially in the summer months. This flight sounds on a bad idea to start with with a turn around in what would from an altitude perspective would be a box canyon.....big red flag. Again thanks for the update.

[@dwaynemcallister7231]

No disrespect to the pilot from me but it's a lack of respect for what could happen turning around in a narrow box canyon that leads to this outcome, the rocks have no forgiveness.

[@igclapp]

Turn radius is a function of true airspeed and bank angle. If you know these two things, you can calculate the turn radius for any airplane.

[@davidwhite8633]

@@igclappTrue , but both are dependent on flap setting --and there’s the rub . More flap will generally decrease the radius of turn , but decrease climb rate as well--in fact it might turn it negative at high DA’s , so in these box canyon situations it’s a balancing act . Probably the cause of Steve Fossett’s fatal in California in the early part of the century.

[@fliesbonanza]

No mention about the mixture set at FULL RICH ???

[@FlyWirescottperdue]

A whole different video. A factor, yes, but not a big player. Turn radius is a function of speed, not power.

[@frankminard]

Did this engine have an altitude compensating fuel pump? If not then the mixture control was in the full rich position, so not in the optimal power producing configuration.

[@FlyWirescottperdue]

IO-520's do not have that capability. It was not leaned for that altitude.

[@frankminard]

@@FlyWirescottperdue It's really something he climbed that S35 much at all unleaned. I operated a Debonair with the IO470 for a 10K DA T/O out of Ruidoso one mid morning about 300 lbs below mgtow optimally leaned using the egt method and barely got 400 fpm. Not a great feeling. Guess that IO520 gave him another 2K ft alt before it gave out. Love your channel. You are a great asset to the new gen of pilots coming up. Frank

[@johnpro2847]

a kite could crash in a park because the wind dropped. The final report was released 2 years later

[@lockedin60]

Scott it seems like a lot of these fatal accidents the pilots have a vast amounts of experience but what sneaks up and bites them is that they attempt to fly a maneuver that they have very little experience in doing. In my minds eye I hear the voice of Dan Gryder AQP.

[@garybensman1358]

Please give us a report on the DC3 crash in Wisconsin carrying rescue dogs.

[@supersaber4167]

Scott, Any thoughts as to why there was no evidence of fire with this crash?

[@GregMadonna]

The W&B looks like they had fueled for a longer flight (than only sightseeing) and they had 130 pounds of cargo. This, to me, looks like, after the low level; photo shoot, they had planned on then just climbing out of the valley and heading home. Was the extra weight a critical factor? Who knows, but carrying the extra weight, to avoid having to return to the airport to pick up their stuff, was another link in the error chain.

[@FlyWirescottperdue]

Very likely.

[@billwelter4101]

At that altitude, the mixture knob should have been pulled out 3/4" to 1", not full rich. Maybe they took off full rich, which would have not given full power on takeoff and subsequent maneuvering

[@FlyWirescottperdue]

Bill, it was not leaned for DA and that's true. Doesn't affect the aerodynamics of the wing at that DA in any case.

[@ReflectedMiles]

So the mixture was found full forward, also, while needing max performance at this altitude, normally-aspirated…

[@FlyWirescottperdue]

Yes. No leaning for high DA.

[@carlospar3727]

Scott, did they ever recover the 3rd propeller blade?

[@FlyWirescottperdue]

No

[@kenlewis11]

Doesn’t that seem like an important thing to cover? I guess they concluded that it didn’t separate before impact, but man, finding it would sure be conclusive

[@N1120A]

The sad thing is they'd done a sightseeing flight a day or two before and successfully flew. I wish they'd just departed West and taken advantage of the free altitude, because they'd still be with us today. Normally aspirated Bonanzas actually do quite well with high DA, but you have to coax them up

[@knuckles-3386]

I delivered fuel to this airport and I saw several close calls i have been over black bear several times why anyone would want to fly up to that canyon just to see that waterfall is beyond me

[@gregjennings9442]

Thank you, Scott. I appreciate you doing these. I’m a relatively new pilot and they’re invaluable to me.

[@leviathan68w78]

That blood glucose you showed is extremely low. That could be something important.

[@MikeCris]

Full mixture at 11K feet?

[@FlyWirescottperdue]

Yep!

[@N8844H]

Do it light and alone before you load up the cabin with pax and fuel and head for a canyon.

[@arnedeneeff1183]

Just started to watch US small plane accidents reviews and compared to Australia they seem to be dropping out of the sky there like flies? No checkup before anyone takes to the skies? Flight plan? Weather? Airplane knowledge? Copilots?

[@FlyWirescottperdue]

I'd bet percentage wise they are similar. There are nowhere the numbers of GA planes flying in Australia than the US. You've got to factor in exposure. I am not saying the accident rate is acceptable.

[@erictaylor5462]

3:10 Why would pictures taken of the crash site before the accident be relevant? Unless there was something on the ground there that could have effected or caused the crash. Also, as an airplane crash site will not be known as such before the crash takes place, I would assume that such pictures would be from long ago. How would we know that the terrain had not changed between the time the picture was taken and when the plane crashed?

[@FlyWirescottperdue]

Indeed, pictures of the crash site before the accident would be rather hard to get;) No, I have said many times, the crash site needs lots of pictures taken... even marks on the ground.

[@stephenmelton2532]

You will not RISE to the occasion. You will fall to your level of training.

[@FlyWirescottperdue]

Exactly!

[@samrapheal1828]

Correctamundo maximus ✔️

[@nightwaves3203]

Buy a drone if you want low around the mountains. Maybe gliding downhill in a valley is safe in no wind but peaks clipping higher altitude winds can even induce bad effects in valleys below.

[@johnfitzpatrick2469]

G,day Skipper from Sydney Australia. "My nickel on the grass" A good pilot has to be ready for stalling and apply counter inputs, such as increase energy, change direction. "Get the laminar air flow around the wing again." Character and methods "Don't make it up as you go along" A house builder prepares plans and specifications and seeks materials, sevices and advice. So building a plane would be the same? 🚶🛩️🌏

[@FlyWirescottperdue]

Or flying one!

[@robertbandusky9565]

🙏🏻

[@dmimcg]

Planes don't kill people- mountains kill people.

[@clintstephens7287]

Earth in the way again.

[@Philc231]

Never push your luck in a aircraft . There’s no ,” it’ll be fine “ in flying .

[@nereanim]

He puts the flaps down to reduce the turning radius but this failed.

[@carlos23161]

Mixture full forward??? That would have substantially DEGRADED engine performance. Why isn’t this mentioned?

[@FlyWirescottperdue]

Carlos, you have a point, but miss the big one that the engine was putting out too much power for the situation.

[@carlos23161]

@@FlyWirescottperdue Hi Scott. I’m sorry. I don’t understand what you mean by too much power.

[@FlyWirescottperdue]

@@carlos23161 I thought you were commenting on a different video, one about flat spins. You are correct the mixture should have been leaned out.

[@carlos23161]

@@FlyWirescottperdue Appreciate you & your channel. Cheers.

[@crrodriguez]

11:25 nature cannot be fooled..☹

[@CFITOMAHAWK]

Many airlines pilots have crashed on take off or on mountains. No double engine with a lot of power to get you out of there. Power Dependent Pilots they became.