Toxic Masculinity (w/ Briggon Snow) - Episode 27

Sad Boyz is a comedy podcast about feelings. Every week we take an emotionally resonant topic and open up while somehow making it funny.
Today we're talking about masculinity (specifically toxic masculinity) and we're joined by the wonderful Briggon Snow, actor, and voice of Caleb on the Bright Sessions
We recorded this from a hotel room in anaheim while we were at vidcon.
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FIND JARVIS JOHNSON
Twitter - / jarvis
Instagram - / magicjarvis
FIND JORDAN
Twitter - / jordanadika
Instagram - / jordanadika
FIND Briggon
Twitter - / briggonsnow
Instagram - / briggon

[@wysteria1766]

Not seeing Jordan with his fro and moustache is messing with my brain a bit. So glad I’ve discovered you guys! ❤️ On a binging spree just to keep me company while I do my assignments ✨✨

[@irohsteacup]

Same, but a year later and I have no assignments

[@user-wu6oe8ql5f]

⁠​⁠@@irohsteacup same but a year later and I have no assignments

[@whatwhat7798]

23:37 “wanna hear a seamless Segway?” “Yeah” “Yeah” “NNNNNNNNNEeeeeeOOOOOOO” **chefs kiss**

[@kelialiang8261]

I have been on a sadboyz listening spree ever since I've discovered y'all :,))))

[@JessicaCrabb]

Please always wear matching clothes with your guests

[@nadavis6845]

love this podcast, sad not a lot of people are seeing it.

[@g.tanmayamanishree1181]

Now you are officially sad boy

[@evanpeterjones]

AAAgggh! As a fam of the pod, emotional pervert, a huge fan of Bright Sessions since y'all introduced me to Lauren Shippen, and a gay person, I've been hoping y'all would have a gay person on, and Briggon's character in the Bright Sessions was a revelation for me, so this is the crossover episode of my dreams

[@AmyAberrant]

No one: Jordan: we’re on the *moon* and I’m a *dog!”*

[@indie4life23]

I always bro out with my toe out.

[@rosellesims]

I NEVER listen to podcasts because I find them to be sooo boring BUT you two changed it for me. I started listening to Sad Boyz before the video versions came out. You two gentlemen keep me interested through the whole podcast. Keep it up guys👏👍

[@pigslaundry5593]

Wtf. I've only been watching Sad Boyz for a few months now. I almost didn't recognize Jordan without all the hair/facial hair

[@me1234569gan]

I know, looking at the thumbnails I was like.. did Jarvis start this podcast with someone else before doing it with Jordan??

[@erroreden]

@@me1234569gan Same!! I clicked on this and heard the voice and I was like... wait a minute

[@fakieplasma6602]

Little did they know those beers were a virus in the future

[@PatrikKron]

I don’t think one should feel bad about ones personally traits. So long you try to control what you don’t want, I feel it’s okay. Why we are as we are is partly genetics, partly our experiences, and partly what we choose to do.

[@kiralonely1307]

I'm here 3 years late, my trans man butt here enjoying anecdotes from cis men of all sorts? Like, this is good to listen to, not just to understand the perspectives of cis men, but also to better understand myself as I'm embracing my own masculinity more, and post-T for me, I have noticed myself being a bit performative at times to try and guarantee I pass, and I'm just curious what the perspectives of masculinity is from cis men who aren't by nature extremely effeminate or anything, but aren't overly performative masculine stuff, ya know? Like you guys are a great example of men who aren't like, you're masculine, but not to the degree I'd consider more negative? A lot of the good aspects of masculinity and it doesn't overpower the good parts of femininity. To add to that, I'm someone who prefers to be somewhat androgynous in gender expression, and that ties into my personality, how I fit roles, etc., I've always found myself not really fitting super feminine goals and being a snarky kid when I was younger when boys would say "bUt YoU'rE a GiRl" when I'd try to do something, and legit deadpan them like "okay? So?" "gIrLs DoN't Do ThAt" "well too bad, now gimme a controller" or whatever, like, I just stopped caring really young because I was gonna do what I wanted, so what if I wasn't expected to. I was raised to be who I wanted to be, but society still kinda imprinted shit on me, ya know? And I wasn't ever a "tomboy", I mean, I am a guy, but back then, because femininity seems to always outweigh masculinity, I was always seen as super girly. I didn't like bugs, or getting hurt, I didn't like getting dirty, or roughhousing. I did love creative shit, I loved being outside, the bugs just bothered me, I would've not minded getting hurt more if I had more friends around, when you're alone and doing stuff, getting hurt isn't worth it, and I loved video games, I built shit with my grandpa, I hated baby dolls and loved making what I called witches brews after it rained, even into my like 10-11 years, basically throwing onion grass and mud and all that stuff into a container that had gotten full of water overnight. I've always been kinda just there? Things I like don't matter in terms of how they're gendered, I like them, so suck it up, ya know? So even with that perspective, I don't have as much like anecdotes of how I fell into social norms or felt pressured, because I was really raised to just not care about others that much and even before I realized I was trans, I feel like I fell more androgynously. Masculinity has never been my strong suit though, and it's really, I guess, odd, to embrace it now. Being AFAB, even when you're raised like I was, there's a level of pushback if you do masculine things to some degree. I always felt out of my comfort zone because I had no experience doing masculine things, and that led to me not doing them a ton, because that discomfort, plus shunning from people who might do those things, plus me being more prone to injury and people not wanting to hold back or like gently let me into new subjects or whatever, like, it led me to not like those things. I still remember my cousin forcing me to wrestle, aka I just sat there, and getting rug burn like a son of a b!tch. But on the other hand, I loved when we got our DSes out and played spy, where we'd communicate with the internal chatroom and draw maps of the house and pretend to be sneaky and head to the other end of the house and get our stuff, and then the other person would have a turn. Genuinely, that's some of my best memories. Or us jumping on the trampoline and making blanket forts to play military. I look at it now and I recognize I still have a certain affinity to femininity, but embracing masculinity is something kinda new to me, and hearing more experienced people discussing it is something you don't see as often as I wish you did, and I find it really informative.

[@WomenRQueensNMyFaceIsTheThrome]

46:10 "i think we need to be allowing them to embrace the feminine while also not vilifying the positive masculine aspects" THIS!!! i think this puts into words what I've been trying to accept for myself, yes i have very masc energy but also fem which both positive sides is completely okay and can/do exist together. Accepting my feminine side has been very healing. 49:23&50:05-14 my points exactly! Yall worded my thoughts perfectly!

[@batterybroken]

I’m so happy your accepting all parts of yourself! 👏🏽 I hope you’re doing well!

[@haydnwilliams1300]

This is the first time I've seen what you guys look like and I cannot for the life of me reconcile the image I had of Jordan in my head with what he actually looks like.

[@haydnwilliams1300]

The Jarvis in my head looks really similar to real life Jordan, and despite the fact that I grew up in England and shouldn't have this narrow mental stereotype, mental image Jordan has a Nigel Thornberry-esq mustache. His voice is like, far too rugged for him to have that face its blowing my mind. Soft boy face, hard boy voice. Goals honestly.

[@Fatfit2]

@@SadBoyzPod I expected you too look like Dwayne "The Rock" Johnson...I was pretty close i must say...

[@allenc.2436]

I am pleasantly surprised to know that Jarvis is a very aware person

[@rhiaeachus2505]

i met briggon at podcast both years and hes the kindest man i've ever met i love this epsiode!

[@Sappby]

I think a lot of kids shows in the same vein of adventure time are really good at showing a bunch of different types of people. There are a lot of kids shows with gay relationships now which is great. (To list a few: she-ra: princess of power, Steven universe, the loudhouse, etc)

[@GrayYeonWannabe]

ok i now understand why ppl say jarvis & jordan look alike. i still disagree but it makes more sense now

[@beckylashua8456]

I adore you guys so much! I just found out about this podcast today. I'm in the middle of a proper binge right now.

[@KaioRosa]

This was so good. I'm definitely gonna be watching all of your videos. Loved the episode. xD

[@batterybroken]

I love this, I’ve gone back and have started from the beginning and this is all gold. Thanks for your hard work and for making this podcast 💕

[@christinea8763]

Thanks for the questions brought up starting at ~40min! I prefer this format for your podcasting.

[@LennoxHaynes21]

I’m subscribed to both of your accounts and excited to see what’s in store for the future

[@Tine_of_Nice_Dreams]

I want to elaborate on the answer to Jarvis' question about how boys are trained what is manly/unmanly (and therefore must be feminine from the perspective of a strict gender binary). Even without adults or media instructing or demonstrating gender performance, boys and men also police each other constantly. If you walk "kinda gay", hold your hand a certain way or say something "wrong", there's always going to be someone telling you. When Briggon talked about performing masculinity in a traditional way, I thought of how that's also how a lot of us avoid sticking out and getting routinely hammered down for it. While I was still in the closet, I had friends as late as college trying to help 'fix' my behavior when I'd explain I didn't have a male influence growing up since I was raised in an all female household. Most of the advice I was given wasn't about compassion, generosity, or courage. It was almost always about making sure girls didn't catch you talking about your feelings, ignoring personal discomfort and concerns to "power through", and thinking of women as creatures that need caring for and shepherding. So much of the male pride I see modeled online is tied to the idea that men are stronger, more rational, more enduring, more capable in control- which inherently requires women to be lesser in those categories rather than equal. I didn't have a dad demonstrating what manliness is, so i've been closely observing the rules of masculinity from all kinds of sources for over 30 years, and I can safely say that all masculinity that relies on women being lesser or in any way an alien variant to the "default" of man is a house built on a foundation of sand. There's just too much evidence constantly debunking those ideas. Men who believe masculinity is the shepherding and othering of women have to actively try to control and keep women down and any person of a non-male gender standing as their equal is a source of insecurity and fear. This is a rotten way to exist in a social society where we all benefit from diverse ideas and approaches to life. It's bad for the men whose masculinity is constantly being challenged and it's bad for the people around them who these men feel required to step on to make themselves feel tall. The great news is masculinity is not a clean inverse of femininity with harsh boundaries drawn between. We are all human and our virtues (and vices) are genderless. Any rule of gender you think of today is a temporary and arbitrary construct specific to one time and culture. If you look around the world and throughout history, even the broadest cultural norms have shifted wildly over the ages. That said there are traditionally masculine characteristics I delight in striving to achieve. I do not seek fights or danger, but when i'm feeling scared or encounter someone who needs help, being a man gives me courage to stand up, speak up, risk my own safety if need be. When I have more than I need, I am glad to be a man who provides for those around me. Being a member of a team and carrying my own weight (and maybe a little of someone else's) also gives me a great sense of fulfillment. If any young guys are reading this, figure out what you care about and dedicate yourself to it. Don't let the peer pressure swerve you. Love being a man, be proud of it. Just know trying to degrade and control others isn't a mandatory part of the bundle, and having feelings and needs is just part of being human.

[@kiralonely1307]

I love the sudden breaking into acapella chord singing of the place your at when you ask for a long lecture about his dreams and aspirations. Legit, that cracked me up, great response. Barely started the episode and I'm loving it already, never heard of the guest, but I think this is a great way to be introduced tbh, so maybe I'll check him out later!

[@lenanayashkova]

Idea regarding how do we stop it: a lot of the stuff about kids trying to self identify - kids are programmed to analyse every tiny detail they see, that's how they learn EVERYTHING. And they obviously see lots of diffrences between lots of different things. However, regarding some groupings they then get indications from wider society, including parents, that they are really REALLY important. Like you notice there are kids who like chocolate ice cream and who like vanilla. Nothing i dicates this is animportant difference. Then think about how much the Boy and Girl groups are separated and made seem like an extremely important one. Even in language the division is often completely unavoidable. People don't even say Kids when addressing them, they say Boys and Girls. And there are SOOOO many ways in which the difference if constantly emphasised. I feel like the best thing to start with is to try and change some of the language

[@mikewazowskii1797]

I love your podcast

[@Patrick_Irving]

Just listened to your first episode this morning, great work. Starting a podcast with my homie real soon and it was great to listen to a genuine and funny introduction from you both. Glad I came across your vids on KZbin, great channels.

[@heatherr.2070]

@42:08 Y’all need to take way more time on this topic!!! So fascinating

[@fay1109]

Jordan looks so different 😱

[@Likethesurfaceofaclock]

It’s so weird seeing briggon talk after I’ve been obsessed w Caleb and look up for YEARS

[@noaag]

This episode was so relieving to listen to. 😭 it's so frustrating to exist in toxic masculinity. Thanks sad boyz.

[@lenar6381]

Briggon I love...listening to you

[@sarexvicentina]

I think this is such an interesting topic and I hope you guys go back to it some other time with other perspectives. While I am proud and happy to be a girl, it’s hard for me to identify masculine traits that I have from society/growing up with brothers, and how I can convey my pride in these things without taking away from my femininity?? Anyways, love this ep uwu

[@samc6329]

me watching this now saying social distancing not realizing this was 2018

[@moveslikemacca]

i love sad boyz podcast

[@whatwhat7798]

Loved the fuq out of this episode ❤️

[@mamesmck5236]

Lest we forget "Nuts Magazine"s tag line in all adverts: " _WOMEN_ Don't expect any help on a _Thursday_ !" 😡

[@PatrikKron]

Will this episode be released in the podcast feed too?

[@WomenRQueensNMyFaceIsTheThrome]

24:55 so me though. I come from a home of never being heard from my parents and always getting misunderstood so i always tried to be as clear as possible in whatever it was and sometimes it comes off wrong to people. 31:45 i think this is interesting perspective for me, as someone born female i remember very well growing up refusing tu *cry in front of people cause i didn't wanna be seen as weak, although a girl i hated feminine things because oddly enough i experience toxic masculinity as a female. Even relating to my sexuality it effected it and it took me until this year to accept my femininity, yes i have more masc energy but i have fem energy too which is okay. Before i felt like i wasn't allowed to have both and it felt wrong to also have fem areas of who i am and that if i had fem then i wasn't myself which is very interesting and can't wait tu see what a therapist says about this lol 38:21 i want to avoid conflict to a point it's damaging for me, i grew up in a home where there was always arguing and domestic violence so i hated conflict and was so against violence but also at the same time scared of saying my feelings bc if it would come across as conflict and turn into violence is something i didn't want to experience anymore so i was very a I'll take hit to my pride/ego to avoid conflict and usually always, especially in relationships it always damaged me bc i couldn't speak up. 41:21*but at the same time, within the past few years i also love watching things that'll make me emotional and those heavy emotions, i think it was a lot of keeping things in, i just really needed to cry it all out which was the only thing i could do to at that time.

[@reallogic4991]

Alright I decided, I like the videos more... Keep up the great work :)

[@memestream8929]

u might have a bit of the aspergers fam

[@reallogic4991]

?????????

[@spempo]

I can't tell which justin is which

[@grandmasgopnik9642]

I really like watching you guys. As a trans guy who’s biggest take is from their somewhat effeminate dad I just feel very comfortable here. I’m like not the most socially aware and this is kind of nice 😅 some of it is very informative

[@summertummer2394]

Where does the part about toxic masculinity start?

[@JyotaaverNirula]

❤️ you guys

[@lenanayashkova]

At around 24 mins in, just thinking "mm, has not been much on masculinity", then the seamless segway came in😎

[@umarmohammad6841]

more like bad boyz

[@umarmohammad6841]

(god bless america)

[@PatrikKron]

I fear that when we are talking about the spectrum of masculinity/femininity and using language like “toxic masculinity” some people (adults or children) will feel like they are not allowed to be themselves, if they are on the “edges” of the spectrum. I hope I’m wrong though. Personally I identify as a man, but my personality traits are all over the classical masculine/feminine spectrum. As you mentioned children seek who themselves are and how to identify, I wonder if they will have a harder or maybe easier time with the idea of the gender spectrum (instead of binary).

[@PatrikKron]

Andrea Bonanno I’m not disputing that. What I meant is that there are aspects that’s more commonly percent in women and other that are more commonly present in men. And that you don’t need to be everything “manly” as a man and vice versa. If we remove the binary definition I believe it might be harder for some individuals to find there identity (whilst it’s easier for others).

[@MartinaGiovese]

I feel like thinking of gender as a spectrum would make it easier, imo. Most people don't fit into a mould, we're naturally pretty dynamic and complicated beings. Especially since what we classify as masculine or feminine changes over time, just thinking of it as a spectrum seems to be more fitting. I think the binary puts more pressure on people to be one or the other. Like if you're a man you must be super masculine or you're really not a man, and vice versa. But in reality you can be a feminine man or a masculine woman and still totally be cis, or realize you fit somewhere else in the spectrum altogether. But yeah, identity will always be a difficult thing. It's hard to discover who we are! Regardless of gender, I think we'd all do good to teach young people about how to find their identity. The psychological concept of identity has been studied for decades. There's a lot of good literature to help young people who are still trying to "find themselves" do so in a healthy way. Maybe if we all got that education growing up, we'd be a lot better off as a society.

[@StarryNightxx]

Late but nah there's nothing wrong with being very masculine. Toxic masculinity is when it reaches to a level that this persons trying to be so masculine they're becoming a danger to themselves and others and it's detrimental to their mental health. Hence the unfortunate reason male suicide rates are so high.

[@tomcoop9750]

@@StarryNightxxno! Men end their lives because they are told masculinity is toxic. This comment is gaslighting.

[@flying_pig_girl]

WHERES THE DND PODCAST???

[@annelise5050]

It's called ARCs here's their twitter page: twitter.com/arcspod?lang=en

[@berrytheblatybus]

Enjoying your podcast guys! Greetings from Kyrgyzstan!!! google it :)

[@user-lw5oc1tt8k]

Why are you sad??

[@alexanderphilip1809]

Not entirely for financial gain, but to draw out every fundamentalist in west asia to a central location that also happens to house a ruler hostile to US interests and allies(Saudi's) to make it easier to operate(Afghanistan is a bitch to conduct military operations in the logistics itself is dependant upon a third country) Iraq was easy game and could act as a bait for islamists and it did, all in all an oversized reaction from Americans kind like the red scare, space race and Japanophobia of the early 80's, nothing evil Just politics.

[@jacobstar2631]

The pendulum is currently far on the left with the media and everything else. So does the guy on the left want the pendulum swung far on the right?

[@nicematerial]

❤️🧡💛💚💙💜💪✌️⚡🚹

[@robertlehnert4148]

Men, once they grew out of their parents home, used to be able to unload to their wives or their wives to be. In other words, someone who they could feel safe and vulnerable with, but could also be the Rock when times got tough and women respected and demanded that from their MEN. Not just males, but Men. An earned status and proud title. And then 3rd wave feminism hit and became the school marms from hell in our schools and increasingly our so called families. Women who demanded that males be more open and sensitive, in other words, more vulnerable to female emotional manipulation, and let's be honest, go for the jugular emotional attacks. From their Marxist mated to post-modernist cores, 3rd wave feminism was all about seizing power by any and all means, and lying propaganda, disengenuous premises, and false from the start pseudo science were all included in so-called "conciousnes raising", indoctrinating emotionaly and intellectually vulnerable students. At first it was almost entirely women, but then the never adequately masculinzed males were targeted and now we have the increasing numbers of soy boy simps joining the chorus of the Damned, naturally seeking some approval and intimacy from a woman, but instead becoming the enablers of humorless, self loathing, and emotionally volatile cannon fodder females in "social justice/woke culture" For all you males, who for whatever reason missed out on strong Manhood role models it's time to nut up and join the Manhood Reserve!!! _Semper Virilus: A Roadmap to Manhood in the 21st Century_ www.artofmanliness.com/articles/semper-virilis-a-roadmap-to-manhood-in-the-21st-century/

[@sweetdandelion5150]

Wow that was sad to read. You need help.

[@robertlehnert4148]

@@sweetdandelion5150 that is the best you got? An ad hominem saying I'm irrational because I depart from third wave Feminists' narrative?

[@sweetdandelion5150]

@@robertlehnert4148 i dont have substance to work with. Feminism isnt invading schools or emasculating men. Expressing your emotions isn't something to be feared, my guy. I wish you no harm but you gotta understand: If everyone else is telling you the same thing, maybe you gotta change smth, the people around you might not be all brainless feminist puppets.

[@robertlehnert4148]

@@sweetdandelion5150 "Right is right even if no one is right. Wrong is wrong even if everyone is wrong" --Venerable Archbishop Fulton Sheen Truth does not depend upon a majority vote. Actually, I almost certainly have been studying this subject for a longer time and in greater detail and yes, our schools largely have been "invaded" by philosophies (largely Deconstructionist and Post Modernist in an unholy alliance with Marxism) Sharing or expressing emotion was never the issue, the goal was to inculcate the sanctioned emotions for the top-down mandated social goals and never let cool logic and reason see that the goals were irrational and the emotional mandates, blatant manipulation and power plays.

[@sweetdandelion5150]

@@robertlehnert4148 okay, keep living in your fantasy land. I hope you can defeat the evil social marxists for the sake of human kind, my great hero.

[@Yall_stupid-32]

Lots of soy