What is the Mountain Meadows Massacre? Ep. 77

In this episode, Dave talks about one of the darkest moments in the history of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints: The Mountain Meadows Massacre. This episode (part 1 of 2) discusses the events leading up to the massacre. In the next episode, we’ll learn more about the aftermath of the massacre, and answer some common questions people have about it.
Transcript of this episode + notes on our website: bit.ly/3cABlLL
Collected materials concerning MMM (1859-1961): bit.ly/2JrgVsE
Summary of issue from authors of book on this subject: bit.ly/2wNx0pF
The Church’s gospel topics essay on this: bit.ly/2UsYM3E
From the Encyclopedia of Mormonism: bit.ly/3dGeYq1
Transcript of discussion on this topic between two scholars: bit.ly/2URdrF7
Solid summary of event, from Church historian Richard Turley: bit.ly/2UOiF4o
Fairmormon responses to questions on this subject: bit.ly/2QTbIOc
Problems with MMM sources (Richard Turley): bit.ly/33UlQM3
Timeline of events (of the Utah War): bit.ly/3avHzMD
Suspected Hofmann forgery of William Edwards affidavit?: bit.ly/2WSpX9I
NOTES:
-It’s fair to note that inflammatory language from top Latter-day Saint leaders (including Brigham Young and apostle George Smith) surely contributed to the war-time attitude held by the southern Utah Saints at the time. With the U.S. army inbound for Utah, U.S. emigrant trains passing through Utah were sometimes characterized as “the enemy.” Surely this made it easier for the southern Saints to justify the killing.
-The Saints later spoke of several grievances they had against some members of the Fancher party. It’s hard to ascertain the truthfulness of many of them, so take them with a grain of salt. But even if they’re all true, they fall extremely short of justification for what was done to them.
Some men may have threatened to join the troops that were then marching toward Utah.
Some men may have boasted of owning a gun used to kill Joseph Smith (the leader of the party, Alexander Fancher, is said to have rebuked the men on the spot that made these first two claims).
Some men may have threatened to return from California with troops.
Some men may have boasted to have been present when Joseph Smith was murdered.
Parley P. Pratt was killed in Arkansas in 1857. Some cite this as another possible reason for increased hostility towards the Arkansas wagon train.
Some claimed the Fancher party had earlier poisoned cattle that, once eaten, poisoned some Native Americans. There is no evidence to suggest they poisoned anything. It was likely anthrax poisoning, which sounds crazy, but the signs are there.
-There is some evidence to suggest that once it was decided in the Cedar City council that they’d wait to act until Brigham Young could advise action, Haight may have sent two men to stop Lee’s initial attack (until word from Brigham came). The riders arrived too late. On the other hand, it’s hard to tell what was done out of sincerity and what may have been done to cover the perpetrators tracks, or for another purpose entirely.
-One of the challenges of diving into the history of the MMM is that so many of those involved gave conflicting accounts of what happened. Separating truth from error is extremely difficult. For example, on April 11 1877, a statement of events was published by John D. Lee in the Gardiner Home Journal in which Lee attempts to paint himself as largely innocent in the events surrounding the MMM. In the most extensive research available to date on the subject, one group of authors wrote,
“During the ride to the Meadows [for Lee’s execution], Methodist minister George Stokes … accompanied [Lee]. According to a reporter, Lee ventured a confession of sorts, telling Reverend Stokes “that he killed five emigrants and possibly six.’ That was the one thing Lee kept to the last. For years, [Lee] maintained that he rushed to the Meadows as a peacemaker and had done all in his power to stop the killing. In a written ‘confession’ drafted in the last months of his life, he had even mixed up dates to conceal his role in the first attack. That same ‘confession’ also claimed he made a full disclosure to [Brigham] Young two weeks after the massacre. But he had omitted important details then, including those he now gave Stokes.” Source: amzn.to/3dLICKy
-When Haight’s initial proposal was rejected, Dame wrote, “Do not notice their threats, Words are but wind-they injure no one; but if they (the emigrants) commit acts of violence against citizens inform me by express, and such measures will be adopted as will insure tranquility.”
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[@tristaraab655]

I bought this book after I found out that my couple greats grandfather was asked to participate in the massacre. He turned Lee down and was later subpoenaed as a witness. Needless to say I was very proud of him for making that decision.

[@davidsnell2605]

That's so interesting! Do you recall the name of your ancestor?

[@JohnDLee-im4lo]

Yeah...what was his name? I have a list of all the witnesses at both trials...your bluff will be called.

[@johnlee1352]

No response? Just as I thought...idiot.

[@happyraccoon4791]

So who was this relative you claim refused to obey Lee?

[@Jimothy-723]

@Robert0276 uh... when you kill somebody's parents and then take them into custody that is known as "kidnaping"

[@justendoney7343]

Probably shouldn’t add extra videos like Star Wars when talking about such a tragic event.

[@themuilover]

Another reason to NEVER lay down your weapons.

[@britty4755]

That man was crazy. They were leaving and he still signaled for them to kill all of them? He had a few outs but still was adamant about killing them. And he killed women! It's horrid really.

[@stevenshook3348]

"That man" was commanded by Young to kill the migrants. It is documented in Young's own writings.

[@mardiknapp2616]

My former grandmother by marriage tells the story of her grandmother surviving this massacre. She met and married her husband on the wagon train, she was only around 14 years old and pregnant at the time of this event. Being so young they mistook her for a child. She said she hid under the wagon, until it was set on fire. A few survivors continued on to California, she had to walk the remainder of the trip carrying her only possession, a wrought iron melting pot. This long handled pot (about 30 inches long) was extremely heavy. I know because I was the caretaker of that pot for 10 years. It was hand forged and I wouldn’t have wanted to carry it for a mile let alone the distance she had to walk. She gave birth to her baby in California. My sons are her descendants. .

[@britty4755]

@@mardiknapp2616 Thank you for sharing this!

[@adams9935]

It was all in attempt to rob them of money and live stock

[@michaelparks5669]

says who?

[@retriever19golden55]

The Baker-Fancher train was extremely well-outfitted, probably the wealthiest wagon train that ever came down the trail, including some fine Thoroughbred horses and a large amount of cash. I'm sure the locals were aware of how rich the party was, since they had tried to buy supplies. The town was a regular supply stop for wagon trains, the Saints had always been happy to sell supplies to other immigrants, and the Baker-Fancher train had been counting on resupplying there. Most historians believe that Brigham Young planned the attack himself, in order to gain the cash and goods the train was carrying. They took everything, including the clothes of the dead, so the seventeen surviving young children had to see their dead parents' clothing worn by people in the town. This is a pretty whitewashed version of the story.

[@JohnDLee-im4lo]

Almost all real historians do NOT believe that Young planned or even knew about the incident until my great-grandfather rode to SLC to tell him about it 10 days later. He then got busy covering it up but real historians pretty much agree he had nothing to do with its planning. Your hatred is showing...the mask slipped a little...

[@scottvance74]

@@JohnDLee-im4lo If you are interested in what "real historians" believe, try listening to the Will Bagley interviews on Gospel Tangents. Lee became a scapegoat, but when the attack was taking place, it was under the belief that Young approved of the action. Young was later culpable in the cover-up and according to Bagley told Lee to lie to the Q12.

[@johnlee1352]

@@scottvance74 Bagley is a biased hack trying to sell books. Not a serious historian. In your world, "real" historians are those parroting your narrative...Young would have been indicted on the slightest hint of conspiracy given the environment. He was not. Later "pardoned" for "any act in connection with the MMM". They had nothing and neither do you.

[@scottvance74]

@@johnlee1352 In my world, a serious historian is someone who is respected by their peers, often indicated by receiving awards for their writings. The book in question received the following: (source: wikipedia): Spur Award, Western Writers of America; Caughey Book Prize, Western History Association ; Caroline Bancroft History Prize, Denver Public Library; Co-Founders Best Book Award, Westerners International; 2003 Best Book Award, John Whitmer Historical Association. Brigham D. Madsen, a fellow Utah historian, wrote: “While the word ‘definitive’ is often overused, this account of the killings merits that distinction. Bagley’s book ranks as a Mormon historical classic.”, Western Historical Quarterly. The New York Review of Books praised the work as “an exhaustive, meticulously documented, highly readable history that captures the events and atmosphere that gave rise to the massacre, as well as its long, tortuous aftermath. Bagley has taken great care in negotiating the minefield presented by what remains of the historical record.” There are also some very good Mormon historians who are honest about their history. I really enjoy works by Thomas Alexander for instance & D. Michael Quinn - both believers in the movement. I have a hard time trusting Turley however given how he approaches some topics including how what he said in the Swedish Rescue. Brigham Young didn't trust lawyers and for whatever reason I find it very strange/disturbing that the LDS church has had almost exclusively lawyers in charge of their history department for over 20 years now.

[@johnlee1352]

@@scottvance74 If you're hanging your tattered hat on Bagley's book, Blood of the Prophets, you need to read it. He's clearly an antagonist and at least has the honestly to admit it. His conjecture about what BY knew or didn't know remains just that: conjecture and wishful thinking. BTW...I'm a lawyer. No one has discredited or contradicted (with evidence) the account of JD Lee's journal try as the haters might. 163 years they've tried. Only weak supposition and guesswork. What you find strange/disturbing only exposes your own motives.

[@deborahcrowe5358]

I went here to this site. I think what disturbs me Most are three key points, 1st being the bodies were dug up, moved, scattered, several times.. why, to hide the numbers? It wasn't uncommon for wagon trains to have,/pick up merging family wagon trains along their journeys, more ppl was supposed to offer more protection..bits not unthinkable that hundreds more could have been killed there.. entire family, geneologicsl lines wiped out.. 2. U can feel the sorrow of the dying while standing at the site . It's deafening. An autistic child visiting the site with his family FLED the site.. 3. The whole ordeal although owned up too by the church, is still downplayed, references to it being the victims fault quietly tossed into the apologetics. THIS WAS AN ANGRY RETALIATION FOR JOSEPH SMITHS DEATH. some rogue mormons did something unthinkable. there. it's said, doesn't mean the whole church did it. Maybe the methodists or fancher family should have it turned over to them.. I feel the dignity loss of those families not getting to make the major decisions of the site

[@LChem1]

It was Not rogue Mormons. It involved at least 60 directly and at least 100 hanging around nearby. It was carefully concealled by Many Thousands. They had prayer circles before and after the mass murder. For openers...

[@jumperguy9867]

1 - Most of the bodies were never buried at all. Those that were had only been buried a couple feet below the surface and were dug up and scavenged by wolves and such. 3 - The LDS church never completely owned up to whom was truly responsible. Initially they blamed the Paiutes exclusively. But there was far too much evidence that John D. Lee and others were involved. Unlike most Mormons, the Indians talked and ID'ed participants. The Fancher party's belongings were in the possession of Mormons, not Indians. So, despite having pretty much absolute power, Brigham Young did nothing to investigate. Reason: HE was the one who ordered the attack. Two Indian chiefs involved told the investigating Army officer in 1859 that they both received letters from Young to kill the Fancher Party. Young apparently penned a letter in which he gave instructions to the Mormons to let the Fancher party pass thru Mormon territory unmolested, but that was CLEARLY an @$$-covering gesture to point the finger of guilt elsewhere. Ultimately John D. Lee was thrown under the bus and executed 20 years after the massacre....ONE MORMON punished for what at LEAST 50 took part in, and for which the Mormon President ordered.

[@carolyearsley]

@@jumperguy9867 Yes!! From what I have learned, Young was also retaliating for the murder Of Parley P. Pratt in Arkansas earlier in the year.

[@KnowingBetter]

You guys really need to cut back on the reference humor...

[@MBison-im2qy]

Oh great, the mormons -Homer Simpson hah, it's like they are Ned Flanders x 100

[@silvermoons7539]

It's like they're trying to get to 10 minutes and still fail

[@djaceofpentacles]

Why?

[@geonerd]

It's completely inappropriate.

[@narrowistheway77]

Did you make a Mormonism video to go with your Scientology video?

[@bw4t]

Of the two emigrants you refer to beginning at 3:41, the one who was killed - and the first victim of the Mountain Meadows Massacre was my 19-year-old third great uncle William Allen Aden. He was killed by Mormon 2d Lt. William Stewart as he (Aden) was reaching into his saddlebag for a tin cup to provide Stewart with the drink of water he'd asked for. His body was dragged to a clump of bushes where it was left to rot and be scavenged by wild animals. The skeleton was still there several years later.

[@rachelrasmussen1101]

That's messed up.

[@happyraccoon4791]

Thurlow, I have your autobiography. You refused to publish Joseph's Myth hoax book. The Knights Templar Freemasons that murdered William Morgan confessed to you.

[@bw4t]

@@happyraccoon4791 You have me confused with my 3rd great grand uncle. I do not have an autobiography.

[@happyraccoon4791]

@@bw4t ahhh, well you have a good uncle.

[@johnlewis6526]

I apologize on behalf of our church

[@Kim-mz8co]

These people killed many of my ancestral relatives in cold blood. I found this video to be way to Mormon-sided for me. The book recommended at the end is also a white-washed account by the Mormon Church--hardly an unbiased view. If it brings some attention to the evil some religious people can do, that's great. Keep searching other accounts to piece together something closer to the truth though.

[@johnlee1352]

It was a military operation of the regularly constituted Iron County Militia in a time of war. (See Utah War 1857-58). Innocents die in war all the time. Tragic but a reality of human conflict. Where are your tears for the 80,000+ innocent women and children who died in a flash at Hiroshima? Where is your hand-wringing for the 50,000+ at Nagasaki? Thousands at Dresden and other places? Huh?...Could it be that your desire to bash Mormons is the reason for your pearl clutching and feigned outrage for 122 people in 1857?

[@Kim-mz8co]

@@johnlee1352 hahaha. Well! Guess you showed your colors as a likely Lee descendant of those responsible for the murders of my family members. Got your excuses all down pat. I've talked personally with Congressman Mo Udall of Arizona whose great Grandfather Lee led the murderous raid. He and his brother Stewart had completely different responses to the murder by their (and apparently your) ancestor. They definitely weren't the type to attack a relative of those murdered. It's nice to know that Lee has descendants that condemn such hateful defense of a crime. Oh! And where was I and where are my tears for the people murdered in Japan? (It's clear you are out of your mind apologist, hateful, defensive, conflicted, and ill-informed, and I have no idea how you draw this analogy to attack me over noting the murder of my ancestors, but I leave this response for others.) I wasn't born until 10 years after those murders of innocents that you mention, but I have participated in direct action at military bases against war on the anniversary of those bombings. I have offered direct and personal emotional support to a survivor of the bombing at Hiroshima and learned fro his experiences. I have visited the concentration camp at Dachau and supported Holocaust survivors as a social worker in the hospitals of the United States. And, I am answering this while living in Cambodia. I was a teen when the US was secretly bombing Cambodia and Laos. I have met a US citizen whose job it was to load the planes in Thailand with bombs for the raids on the ancestors of my students. I have lived in Southeast Asia for 7 years doing what I can to support the descendants of mostly rural and mountain people who were killed by massive bombing raids in undeclared wars in Laos and Cambodia by people for the United States. If you are not of Western descent and a descendant of the Lee who led the murderous raid against my relatives, with the name Lee, your ancestors could be Lee descendants from Asia. If that's the case, then I am teaching many of your relatives by the name Lee in Laos.

[@johnlee1352]

@@Kim-mz8co Why do you feel attacked? I only pointed out the tragedy of war. BTW...Stewart Udall always spoke of the military action as what it was. He was a proud descendant of JDL as am I. I grew up in the same small Arizona town as Mo and Stewart. They are my family...stop the misinformation. Why are you aghast about the death of 120 people in 1857 if not as a cudgel with which to beat the Mormons? Those thousands of deaths at the hands of your government more recently seem nothing more than a passing thought for which you allegedly provided "emotional support". If you can't see the relevance of pointing to thousands upon thousands of innocents dying in wartime, then your hatred of the Mormons blinds you to the tragedy of human conflict evident in both cases. One was carried out by Mormons in a time of war and the other (light years more awful) was carried out by your own government in a time of war. Not surprisingly, I see no condemnation, name calling (murderers) and denigration of the US for that. You only want to wring your hands about a military operation more than 160 years ago in the American wild West. Why? Because you want to besmirch a struggling faith which was defending itself in an impossible environment. Hypocrisy seems your happy companion. I'm glad you've chosen to live your life largely outside the US and away from any objectivity.

[@mariocampos1969]

We are not taling here on civilians killed as "colateral damage" of war operations. This was cold blood murder of unarmed men, women and children, and would be considered as an abominable crime under customs of war at that time as it is today. If Hiroshima falls into the same class is highly controversial subject, but that changes nothing in regard to Montain Meadows.

[@geonerd]

They will NEVER apologize in any meaningful way.

[@ibodhidogma]

It's always the "angry and afraid minority" isn't it.

[@snorribjorn5074]

I admire your willingness to tackle such a tragic and controversial topic. Well done.

[@geonerd]

LOL. There is nothing "controversial" about it. Mormons committed premeditated mass murdered of unarmed civilians. Full stop.

[@dsoule4902]

It's now a bludgeoning weapon against the targets I'll have to re-read ancestor journals who were there.

[@jumperguy9867]

@@dsoule4902 Most of the Mountain Meadows victims were shot in the head. The Indians had perhaps 5 firearms among them...that leaves on one group to blame - the Mormons who connivingly talked the Fancher Party into surrendering their firearms and walking away from the safety of their circle of wagons.

[@andrewfike4290]

He's just parroting a story from the corporation.

[@MarcTelesha]

How inthe world is it controversial? I still don't know why Brigham Young isn't canceled. Making slavery legal and genocide against native Americans are enough let alone the other power trips he had.

[@4himcircleg]

Those murdered in the wagon train were known as the Baker Fancher party...The Fancher's are my wife's family (my inlaws) and this tragedy will not be forgotten. There is no excuse for this massacre and to my knowledge, there has never been an apology from the Church. (I also do not appreciate the short video clips making light of this horrible event. It makes me think those in the church are still not willing to take this seriously) The Families of John D Lee have taken the burden of this massacre alone (which I disagree with) and he was removed from the Church and his plural wives were taken from him, However, he was reinstated into the Church in 1961. Hmmmmm I wonder what something like this tells the families like ours? R.I.P Alexander Fancher, Eliza Ingrum Fancher, James Matthew Fancher, Frances "Fanny" Fulfer Fancher, Hampton Fancher (19), Robert Fancher (19), William Fancher (17), Mary Fancher (15), Martha Fancher (10), Sarah G Fancher (8), Margaret A Fancher (8) and to all the other families involved You are remembered!

[@4himcircleg]

@trevor anderson I would like to see the apology do you have a ref for it? As for the monument do you realize that the church tore it down originally? One of Young's escort lassoed the cross [on the burial site] with a rope, turned his horse, and pulled it down. Brigham Young "didn't say another word," recalled Dudley Leavitt. "He didn't give an order. He just lifted his right arm to the square [a temple gesture], and in five minutes there wasn't one stone left upon another. He didn't have to tell us what he wanted done. We understood." (Forgotten Kingdom, p.178) There are many ref to the church standing behind the massacre, and still covering it up... The Mormon efforts to cover-up the details and white wash the massacre continues even today. A recent article in the Salt Lake Tribune told of the accidental unearthing of "the skeletal remains of at least 29 slain emigrants" at Mountain Meadows in Southern Utah (Salt Lake Tribune, March 13, 2000, p. A1) Scientists wanted to do a full study of the remains. However, Gov. Mike Leavitt, a descendent of one of the participants of the massacre, "encouraged state officials to quickly rebury the remains, even though the basic scientific analysis required by state law was unfinished.... the governor's intercession was one of many dramas played out last summer, all serving to underscore Mountain Meadows' place as the Bermuda Triangle of Utah's historical and theological landscape. The end result may be another sad chapter in the massacre's legacy of bitterness, denial and suspicion." (Salt Lake Tribune, March 12, 2000, p. A-1) most of these are very reputable and not from outside ref's but from the church...you may want to do a little more research.... and in 1990 the descendants of victims and perpetrators began urging the Mormon Church to accept responsibility for the massacre and to rebuild the crumbling landmark established by US army troops in 1859. Church president Gordon B Hinkley in 1998 agreed to restore the landmark but even that concession turned controversial when in 1999 church contractors accidentally uncovered the bodies of 29 victims. After a debate of Utah state officials and church leaders (what has been called the unique church-state tango) about state laws requiring unearthed bones to be forensically examined for cause of death , the church had the remains quickly covered back up without any exams that might have drawn any attention to the brutality of this massacre. A month later when descendants of the perpetrators and the victims gathered to dedicate a church financed monument, in what was supposed to be a healing service, everyone was disappointed by Hinkley's remarks... He continued to hedge in the issue of Church responsibility even adding a legal disclaimer that I believe was rather offensive. "That which we have done here must never be construed as an acknowledgment of the part of the church of any complicity in the occurrences of that fateful day." Many believe this was in part to avoid wrongful death lawsuits. .... So tell me again how I need not fall into a trap.... You might watch yourstep....looks like you could be falling!!

[@dark_winter8238]

There was an apology because the killed the person that delivered it.

[@JohnDLee-im4lo]

Not murder...a military operation of the regularly constituted Iron County Militia in a time of war. (See Utah War 1857-58). Innocents die in war all the time. Tragic but a reality of human conflict. Where are your tears for the 80,000+ innocent women and children who died in a flash at Hiroshima? Where is your hand-wringing for the 50,000+ at Nagasaki? Thousands at Dresden and other places? Huh?...Could it be that your desire to bash Mormons is the reason for your feigned outrage for 122 people in 1857?

[@Kim-mz8co]

All the Fancher names you have listed are my relatives too. Thank you for your posted comment. They are remembered.

[@Kim-mz8co]

That JDLee guy is a nasty apologist. He copied and pasted the same response (just added another insult) to my comment too. When they attacked women and children for 5 days (minority were adult men) and then tell them you will take them to safety and then slaughter them instead when they do what they were instructed to do, and then drag a 12 year old out of the kids kidnapped wagon and shoot her in front of them, it's murder whether these apologists are convinced it was war or not. Thank you for remembering out relatives.

[@davidhollenbeck9227]

My wife's family are Mormon and trace their Mormon roots back to a man named Abraham Hunsaker. They revere this guy and his 5 wives and even have a book on him that as far as I can tell they all have a copy of. Thing is I read this book and he was part of the militia that attacked those settlers in mountain meadows. The book skips over that part but when I pointed it out they all got mad at me and told me that cant be true. I showed a few the records outside the book and they to this day refuse to admit it and a few refuse to talk to me which is fine.

[@dsoule4902]

Oh my.... you went off the Narrative Plantation

[@jumperguy9867]

Denial isn't just a river in Egypt.

[@timothycook3566]

There were infant babies found in that mass grave. They weren't only after anyone old enough to tell the tale, They just killed em all

[@lindybean2225]

They didn't kill them all. Children under 6 were kept alive and kidnapped. They were sent to go live amongst the Mormon families. It took the army to go in a yr later and retrieve the children and send them home to the rightful family of the. 1 of my aunt's children was killed and 3 were kidnapped. Tragedy all the way around

[@johnlee1352]

@@lindybean2225 Children under 8 were spared...17 to be exact.

[@lindybean2225]

Either way it was a tragedy. Minerva Bakers oldest daughter was killed. Her youngest 3 were taken. It was a senseless and criminal act that should have never happened. And only 1 man. 1... was tried and executed. David, Melissa, and Minerva were my aunt's and uncle. My 2nd great grandfather James Pickney Springs Beller should have been there but he was extremely ill and couldn't make the journey. If he had been there my family line wouldn't exist.

[@lindybean2225]

And if you actually go in and read the names of the surviving children the oldest was 6. It was 17 children under the age of 7 because Mormons believe at 8 they are an adult... But the oldest of the surviving children was 6 yrs old.

[@johnlee1352]

@@lindybean2225 No, 8 years old is the age of accountability not adulthood.

[@lorifive]

Not quite the accurate historical presentation. Too bad !!!

[@MrRezRising]

What was incorrect?

[@alanc1491]

My ancestors were Carroll County neighbors of Alexander and Eliza Ingrum Fancher and their seven beautiful children, ages 7 to 19 when they were murdered by a cult still headquartered in Utah. A future prophet of the cult was with Brigham Young when later he desecrated the site and blasphemed the Lord. Young is recorded as saying “Vengeance is mine and I have had a little,” mocking Deuteronomy 32:35 and Romans 12:19, which was engraved on a large wood cross that Young ordered torn down. Without doubt, Young is now at the business end of those God-breathed words.

[@salud1541]

Amen. Mormons can’t just acknowledge that they did something horrible and expect us to move on and view their religion as true.

[@IExposeMormonism]

When B Young said "And I have taken a little.." He confessed to his part in mass murder. It should have been used against him in the trial but wasn't.....

[@richardholmes5676]

It was a white mans war. Mormon has nothing to do with it.

[@thedarkerarchery3553]

Now they know the feel and experience of the countless Natives massacred just the same by the Christian cult that arrived in their lands, that brought your ancestors to live there. Only thing is, not a single generation since then has given the land back, -and call themselves "righteous"...

[@johnlee1352]

THE FACTS: It was a military operation of the Iron County Militia, a regularly constituted military division of the State of Deseret. The Mormons had left the US when they came west into Utah, unincorporated Mexican territory. They set up their own government, printed money and declared themselves independent of the federal government. With the end of the Mexican War in 1848, western lands were ceded to the US as part of that treaty. In effect, the US government followed the Mormons out to Utah. When the feds tried to impose federal authority in Utah, the State of Deseret didn't take too kindly to it. The officers that had been sent to "govern" Utah were sent packing back to Washington. The Mormons had had enough of the "constitutional" treatment afforded them in Missouri and Illinois that ended in the murder of Joseph Smith and his brother. They were in no mood to be governed by the same people who had driven and killed them. As a result of the wild tales of rebellion, President Buchanan dispatched fully 1/3 of the US military to Utah to "quash the Mormon rebellion" in 1857. Brigham Young declared martial law in the territory and the Mormons were preparing for a military assault on their community. This was the climate into which the Fancher wagon train rolled. The Mormons wouldn't trade with them because they were preparing for war. They were frustrated and threatened to go into San Bernardino and bring the troops up the southern flank of the Mormons while the army units attacked from the north. I'm no military genius but you can't have a two-front war. The wagon train was unfortunately in the middle of a conflict they couldn't control and lost their lives. As a military matter, it worked perfectly. None of those people made it to the military outpost at San Bernardino. Innocents die in war all the time. War is hell. Tragedy but understandable. The winners of war usually get to write the history and so they call this encounter a "massacre". If Washington had lost the Revolutionary War, he would have been hung as a traitor and his skirmishes would have been called "massacres"...see how it works?

[@loganseebach]

My neighbors family members were part of the people who got massacred sad event he did what he could to spread it before his death last week you will always be rembered Mr. Fancher

[@aaronjess1608]

Wow can this be more obvious of how evil mormons are

[@jonjahr3403]

Not a very accurate description of events in this case. But to each their own. If you want to believe this go right ahead. If you want the real use non mormon church approved sources. Gotta think outside the box (the mormon box) that is. I say this not because I hate there are many whom I respect and admire. However even when I was an active member of the mormon church I knew better than to always trust what the church taught just because it came from them.

[@richardholmes5676]

It was a white mans war.

[@LETSRUNUNLV]

What isn’t accurate here?

[@jonjahr3403]

@@LETSRUNUNLV Actually I was referring to part 2 however both video's seem to be nothing more than an attempt by Mormons to deflect responsibility here.

[@LETSRUNUNLV]

@@jonjahr3403 hmm. Idk, Honestly I don’t ever think about church history to much. Im a member but I don’t believe in the church because I think the world of Brigham young😂😂 stuff was wild back then.

[@jonjahr3403]

@@LETSRUNUNLV Saying you don't believe in the Church but yet you think the world of Brigham, and you're a member makes no sense.

[@Joe-kx7bl]

ANOTHER GREAT MORMON PROPAGANDA STORY TOLD FALSELY TO STROKE THE MORMON FAKE HISTORY OF ALWAYS BEING KIND AND HELPFUL.

[@rachelrasmussen1101]

Is part 2 up yet?

[@soxpeewee]

This information is totally inaccurate or spun make the Mormons look slightly better than they were. First off the Mormons were talking about robbing different wagon trains prior to this wagon train coming through. I there is evidence that they actually had killed several wagon train parties and Robbed them previously. This was just one of the few wagon trains that was large enough to go noticed missing. The people on the wagon train did not insult anyone in cedar City and nothing actually happened to Haight. The Mormons made that up later to justify their actions. Brigham Young and the rest of Mormon society blamed everyone from Missouri in Kansas for martyring pratt and said that everyone from Missouri and Kansas deserved to die. It just so happens that this wagon train was made up of people from Missouri and Kansas. When Brigham Young visited the memorial for the murdered people he basically said they deserved it and destroyed the memorial. The mormons didn't just kill the people they also raped and tortured them. most of the women and children were beaten to death not shot. Seven people killed initially at the wagon train trail and buried by survivors. All the other bodies were left to rot and be eaten by wolves until years later when they were buried so that no one could find their bones. Some of the pioneers ran off and hid in caves and were murdered there. The wagon train were told after the initial 7 were shot that they would be escorted to cedar City on the condition that they gave all of their property including their wagons, their cattle, all of their money, andall of their supplies to the Mormons, and they had to go back East where they came from and never come through Utah again. This was a virtual death sentence but at least they had somewhat of a Fighting Chance despite leaving into the wilderness with nothing but the clothes on their back. The mormons split up the women and children from the men, so they could rape more easily and to not waste bullets. The Mormons took everything from these people. They literally stripped the clothes and jewelry off the bodies and left them line naked in the. Driving children often saw their dead parents clothing and possessions on the people of cedar City and parowan. It was said they even pulled gold and silver teeth from the corpses. There were at least 18 survivors of the massacre, likely more. These children were not spared intentionally but simply had survived the volley of gunshots that rang out as people ran from being beaten, many were wounded. Many of the children were also hiding in the wagons too. One of the surviving children who survived was 12 or so. They decided she was too old to be let to live so they killed her by shooting her in the head. Supposedly 120 people died but many people estimate that there were more in the wagon chain and unaccounted for. The Mormon church owns the land that it happened on and will not allow anyone to find out the exact numbers or look for graves. The Mormon military had even murdered infants. The survivors were initially put in a town meeting hall or some kind of public building while the mornons decided whether to kill them or not. Then they were sold as slaves to local Mormon families who starved, beat and molested them in squalid conditions half naked for several years. Some of the adopted families had actually killed their adopted children's parents and children had witnessed it. The lucky children were returned to relatives in Kansas for Missouri some unlucky ones were resold into slavery and then later adopted into Mormon families outside of cedar City. The Mormon Church goes to extreme lengths to minimize the mountain Meadows massacre and its role. There is much debate if Brigham Young really did condone it as he seemed more than happy to vilify the dead 2 or 3 years after it happened. So there's a lot of debate if Paiute Indians were actually involved in the raid whatsoever. The Mormons wanted the Indians all dead. The plan was actually to have the Paiutes kill everyone in the wagon train, and they would kill the Paiutes and take their land and anything they had taken from the wagon train. Seems really unlikely that other Paiute Indians would help with this.

[@johnlee1352]

Your breathtaking lack of knowledge of the real history of these events only belies your ardent desire to denigrate the Mormons. Your lies, exaggerations and ignorant rantings show you for who you really are. Your mask has slipped and we see you. Disgusting.

[@Outkai]

so crazy i was raised in utah and went to school there from preschool - 7th grade n was never taught about this event once

[@randyjordan5521]

I was born a Mormon in 1955, and heard very little about it in the 42 years I was a Mormon. I had to learn about it from non-church sources.

[@johnlee1352]

You obviously didn't do your homework in your American History book. Every textbook I've seen in Utah includes the MMM. Sloth and indolence has a price...ignorance.

[@sweetafton5655]

@@johnlee1352you aren’t winning anyone over with your arrogant, superior attitude.

[@coalcreeker583]

In the book “Letters of a Woman Homesteader” the author mentions that they had a bookcase made from a bed that came from the Mountain Meadows Massacre. Their homestead was in far western Wyoming close to Utah so they had dealings with Mormons

[@christopherhardy8937]

Please tell give me examples in early mormon history when stake presidents and bishops didn't act from direction from the prophet or church leadership? There is no way Brigham young did not know what was going on!

[@BlueJayBirdSaint]

Good job! I'll be waiting eagerly for the second part! Thank you.

[@johnlewis6526]

I’ve seen you many a time in these video comments

[@incog99skd11]

The short movie clips in this video disrespect the entire subject and make it unwatchable.

[@tpbarron]

I feel so bad for all of the people involved. It's so awful. Thank you for giving us this information about it.

[@montanamike7948]

don't sweat it bro. none of them are alive and nobody that did it is alive.

[@geonerd]

Yea, I'm sure those poor persecuted Mormons felt just awful. 🙄

[@karlgharst5420]

Both Young and Smith preached "blood atonement," meaning an apostate or heathen could only go to heaven with the shedding of their blood. This is part of the Hindu belief called "Thuga," where a pilgrim murdered on his way to a religious journey goes instantly to heaven. Of course, the "thuggee" gets to keep the victim's possessions - just as the Mormons kept the Fancher party's cattle, provisions, etc... Other Mormon massacres are the Gunnison and Atkinson massacres as well as a multitude of murders committed by the RLDS in Utah, AZ and Mexico. Smith was killed while being held in the Carthage jail awaiting an extradition order from Missouri for ordering the murders of Gov. Boggs and the Jackson Co. sheriff, which was done by a deacon in the Nauvoo Temple.

[@JohnDLee-im4lo]

He was in Carthage to be arraigned before a magistrate for the destruction of the Expositor printing press. Either you are ignorant or "overlooked" that fact. I suspect the former. Your characterization of the other "massacres" mirrors your vacuous knowledge of the facts. Gunnison's party were killed by Indians and nobody credible ever associated the Mormons with the Atkinson affair. You need to educate yourself before blathering on about things of which you are clearly ignorant. BTW...there was still an extermination order against the Mormons from the governor of Missouri in 1844. No judgment on that? Do you approve of that, huh, Karl?

[@juner0s3s22]

This was great David! This is such a difficult topic and you handled it masterfully. You didn't excuse the perpetrators and you explained the political environment and tensions before the massacre. God bless you and may the souls if that tragedy rest in peace.

[@Jimothy-723]

they killed over 120 people and kidnapped all of their children just before blaming it on the natives, thus killing even more people...

[@naomiwood9241]

This is sooo inaccurate, they literally dressed in blackface to pretend to be the Paiute people. So messed up

[@BrianShaneRushton]

Interesting take. Any evidence of this?

[@naomiwood9241]

@@BrianShaneRushton yes tons of sources actually. Much more accurate story on the Smithsonian than the church website. The real story is awful, and y’all need to stop sugar coating it.

[@BrianShaneRushton]

@@naomiwood9241 okay, thanks for getting back to me. It says on the Smithsonian website that Paiutes were involved in the attack and that some Mormons dressed as Paiutes to conceal their identity. No mention on the page of blackface tho

[@randyjordan5521]

@@BrianShaneRushton "A member of the Dukes train, S. B. Honea, stated 'that he passed through Great Salt Lake City on August 17, that he saw everywhere preparations for war, that the company were harassed by Indians all the way, that in southern Utah they hired Mormon guides and interpreters to the sum of $1,810, and then were robbed on the Muddy [River] of 375 head of cattle.' [George B.] Davis described the Indians who stole the cattle as having among them some with light, fine hair and blue eyes, and light streaks where they had not used sufficient paint. He gave the number of cattle taken as 326 head.....On October 17, the first members of the Duke train of emigrants arrived half-starved at San Bernardino with the Mormon theft of their cattle to add to the tale of the massacre." (Brooks, pp. 125, 126, 146.) "It was from the lips of Charley Fancher, soon after his arrival from the vicinity of the tragedy, that I heard the first story of the massacre. In his childish way he said that "some of the Indians, after the slaughter, went to the little creek, and that after washing their faces they were white men." (Josiah Gibbs, "The Mountain Meadows Massacre.")

[@geonerd]

@@BrianShaneRushton Read Lee's book!

[@wizeking7223]

Worst breakdown of all time , you missed so many important facts . I do not wish to get into it tho I strongly recommend everybody should Learn the facts .

[@MrRezRising]

"I do not wish to get into it..."???? Put up or shut up.

[@BrianShaneRushton]

What are these "important facts" that were missed?

[@Volleyball_Chess_and_Geoguessr]

So this is God's one true church, yes?

[@geonerd]

You bet!! 😁

[@geonerd]

The most damning thing about MMM is what is says about Mormon culture. The absolute insistence on absolute obedience is beaten into every Mormon from birth. (That's how cults operate!) And this training was fully demonstrated when ~100 "Good Mormons" simultaneously shot unarmed men, women, and children in the back of the head. Very few cultures manage to instill such levels of blind devotion and obedience. Those that do are properly labeled as "Cults." (Think "Jim Jones and his magic kool aid.") I have ZERO doubt that modern Mormons would, if ordered and agitated by the appropriate church officials, do exactly the same thing today - commit mass murder.

[@JimmyJBraddock]

With all due respect and as a "modern mormon" I can say that this is the stupidest comment I have ever read.

[@lindybean2225]

My maiden name is Beller. Neice of Manirva Baker, David, and Melissa Beller. I respect your views but this is not what was always told in my family.

[@mazzeoniify]

Of course not

[@MrRezRising]

Have you looked up the incident anywhere? Families always sanitize the messy parts, better to outsource the info. Good luck. 🤘

[@lindybean2225]

@rez of course I have. My family hasn't white washed anything. In fact I knew nothing of the event until the movie came out. I have read several books and watched several programs on it. I'm not ignorant about this in no way.

[@MrRezRising]

@@lindybean2225 👍🙂

[@toshiaspencer-beekman9094]

Not told in mine either

[@Joe-kx7bl]

JUST BECAUSE PEOPLE AREN’T LIKE YOU DOESN’T MAKE YOU BETTER.

[@saintlynnie4037]

I had a couple Mormon missionaries visit my house every Saturday for a month trying to get me to convert. I asked them about this and they tripped over themselves trying to change the subject. They never came back after that.

[@camdenmiller7127]

Its really a simple thing for them to respond to, a group of rebellious and fearful members enacted violence against immigrants without the knowledge or permission from their leaders. It’s understandable after being hunted and murdered in their journey westward that they would become angry and defensive. I am by no means justifying it but the missionaries probably just got caught off guard because its not something taught in history classes or essential to be taught to members in church because it wasn’t a church sanctioned issue.

[@pippadawg7037]

Thank you for that. I know what to say to them if they ever dare to come knocking again.

[@richardholmes5676]

Mountain Meadows Massacre was a white man's war.

[@ThatOddChickenHippie]

They sure don't teach this in Utah Studies

[@JohnDLee-im4lo]

Yeah but they sure teach these lies in "Haters' Studies"...

[@PapaKryptoss]

Read Juanita Brooks books . Turley got all his information from her books.

[@davidsnell2605]

Actually almost one third of the entire book is needed just to list Turley's extensive sources. They extend far beyond Brooks' work, but her work is definitely cited and seems to me to be a decent source of information on this topic.

[@scottvance74]

Juanita Brooks wrote the original book. Turley tries to spin (as a lawyer) it to make it a little more faithful. Granted, he did add some new research and material. It's similar to how Bushman chose to re-write Faun Brodie's book. Roughly the same information, but spinning things in a way that is a little more palatable to the faithful. If you look at the way that Turley chose to spin things during the Swedish Rescue recordings, you will see that he's not the most accurate/clear when it comes to uncomfortable topics. In this particular episode they left out the concept that the reason they were attacked in the first place was simply to steal their cattle. They also played up the accusations of fighting words prior to the attack. This was probably an explanation/justification after the fact and may not have occurred. The Will Bagley (Gospel Tangents) interviews give another (potentially more accurate) perspective.

[@tracemitchell5515]

It’s important to note that xenophobia was running rampant in Utah at the time due to Brigham Young’s declaration of Martial Law.

[@geonerd]

Mormons and Xenophobia are permanently joined at the hip. (That's common in most cults.)

[@simonacey]

@@geonerd this applies to a lot of other religious groups. Also, the Mormon church has changed a lot of their beliefs. Mormons don't support polygamy or the xenophobia we see in lots of other groups.

[@Dragonsslaya]

John D Lee was framed by Brigham Young

[@JohnDLee-im4lo]

I believe the word is "scapegoated".

[@CHN-fh2sn]

Too bad you added the BS video clips.

[@scottb4509]

Very concise and unbiased. good presentation.

[@jumperguy9867]

It was not unbiased. The admissions of guilt were deflections from the truth of who was guilty

[@AlexInVegas-702]

amazing serious topic. too bad there are those annoying snippets of movies all over the video. it sets the bar lower... very disappointing.

[@canadiangirl]

Two of my ancestors were killed in this!

[@GeorgeStrong1925]

This is really disgusting

[@cranstonsnord3625]

Another video i watched from the "church" played up the death of the "dear leader" by making the murders understandable.

[@tyronyap4060]

Whose here for book report?

[@AnonYmous-iw6rh]

5:29 lol, I'm sure he sobbed as he was counting all of that glorious blood money he looted😂😂😂🤑🤑🤑

[@kurtdunbar912]

Will Bagley's book is much better on this subject; thoroughly researched using LDS documents. Sally Denton's book, "American Massacre" is quite good too.

[@johnlee1352]

...and Jessie Jackson just released a book (thoroughly researched, of course) explaining conservatism in America...let's all read it! wow

[@mikequinn6206]

The date is rather poignant, given the even bigger disaster that occurred 144 years later. The only differences being the number of victims involved and the fact that the Mountain Meadows Massacre was brother against brother. A portent of the biggest disaster to ever beset the North American continent?

[@Cutie11083]

This was a blood sacrifice for Joseph Smith

[@nowayjay2122]

Persecution? Okay.

[@seans5289]

Would you support an LDS theocracy, were one possible?

[@seans5289]

david janbaz: If it were your religion that got to be in charge of the theocracy, would you support it?

[@seans5289]

david janbaz: So, you’d be worried a theocracy would become corrupted too?

[@seans5289]

david janbaz: So, you’ve eliminated Catholicism and the LDS church as candidates, but is there any religion that could effectively run a theocracy?

[@seans5289]

david janbaz: I don’t support the idea of theocracies unless someone can demonstrate that a god exists, that this god is actively leading their religion, and that this god has the virtues and skills needed to maintain a beneficial society. Do those requirements seem reasonable?

[@seans5289]

david janbaz: Sorry, this reply didn’t show up in my notifications. I’d be happy to go over some facts that prove god. Could we do them one at a time, rather than just linking an entire website at me. If you had to choose one piece of evidence or one main reason that makes you confident that a god exists?

[@bennydafool100io8]

The first 9/11

[@MrRezRising]

Jon Krakauer's Under the Banner of Heaven is a deep rabbit hole of the history of Mormanism, the LDS, and how they operate like terrorist cells. The MMM is a highlight, as is the child bride ring they had/have in Bountiful, Canada. Amazing book, highly recommend.

[@IExposeMormonism]

Mormonism is a form of terrorism. It's a spy network and today Mormons like to join the post office and FBI etc. Data collection. I had a run in with a Mormon post mistress in 2008. Someone spilled coffee on 6 books I sold and sent to Salt Lake area. So they said but they were delivered and no one complained. Then she tried to blame me, sent me a letter, on the phone she hung up when I said to Darla Lee of Prather Ca, " Darla I gave you those books You held them in your hands..." click. Today the largest NSA listening center in the world is near Salt Lake, full of patriotic Zionist Mormons listening to you.

[@fiddleback1568]

Did you know, they dominate the CIA and FBI? They always pass the no drugs rule.

[@naomiwood9241]

Wow your references are laughable

[@alexbell2907]

wow never learned this in utah studys wonder why

[@jumperguy9867]

Because Utah is run by Mormons and they want it advertised as little as possible, and when it IS, they obscure the truth.

[@Jimothy-723]

okay, thats only one massacre of the time... now you have to excuse the battle creek massacre, the circleville masacre, the provo masacre, the black hawk masscre, the william mcbride masacre, the porter rockwell massacre, the walker war, the utah war, the mormon war in ilinois, and the morisite war....

[@jumperguy9867]

This is a video of MOUNTAIN MEADOWS! All those other references can be discussed when someone posts a video about them!

[@Dandeeman26]

Terrible. The situation was awful. But a terrible response. The truly sad thing is if you take away this one act from these men you have good men. My heart aches for all involved. Just terrible. Two lessons to learn 1) never let fear rule your judgment 2) don't follow leaders blindly. The actual Président of the Church we are promised won't lead us astray but for all others pray to confirm direction from them. This tragedy may have been avoided had those 2 things been followed.

[@geonerd]

LOL. Mormonism INSISTS on blind obedience to church authority. MMM is a symptom of an abusive cult culture.

[@michaelgarner3585]

Why do we do this too ourselves we are all ONE ONE PEOPLE ONE COLOR ONE NATION ONE DIVINE UNIVERS E THE TIME ISCNOW

[@stefanycody3960]

Hmm intetesting finding out different versions of this since I am decendent from the Fancher clan survivors

[@allanbacon2977]

The one true church. All lies are from the Devil.

[@lindsayhengehold5341]

This was such a tragic event

[@AbiGodinha]

My heart really goes out to Latter-day Saints and all you guys have been through historically.

[@SaintsUnscripted]

Abi Pereira You are the best. Seriously. So glad to have had you as a friend on here for all these years :)

[@AbiGodinha]

@@SaintsUnscripted Oh goodness, I just saw this! That’s so sweet that you remember me 💜

[@johnlee1352]

THE FACTS: It was a military operation of the Iron County Militia, a regularly constituted military division of the State of Deseret. The Mormons had left the US when they came west into Utah, unincorporated Mexican territory. They set up their own government, printed money and declared themselves independent of the federal government. With the end of the Mexican War in 1848, western lands were ceded to the US as part of that treaty. In effect, the US government followed the Mormons out to Utah. When the feds tried to impose federal authority in Utah, the State of Deseret didn't take too kindly to it. The officers that had been sent to "govern" Utah were sent packing back to Washington. The Mormons had had enough of the "constitutional" treatment afforded them in Missouri and Illinois that ended in the murder of Joseph Smith and his brother. They were in no mood to be governed by the same people who had driven and killed them. As a result of the wild tales of rebellion, President Buchanan dispatched fully 1/3 of the US military to Utah to "quash the Mormon rebellion" in 1857. Brigham Young declared martial law in the territory and the Mormons were preparing for a military assault on their community. This was the climate into which the Fancher wagon train rolled. The Mormons wouldn't trade with them because they were preparing for war. They were frustrated and threatened to go into San Bernardino and bring the troops up the southern flank of the Mormons while the army units attacked from the north. I'm no military genius but you can't have a two-front war. The wagon train was unfortunately in the middle of a conflict they couldn't control and lost their lives. As a military matter, it worked perfectly. None of those people made it to the military outpost at San Bernardino. Innocents die in war all the time. War is hell. Tragedy but understandable. The winners of war usually get to write the history and so they call this encounter a "massacre". If Washington had lost the Revolutionary War, he would have been hung as a traitor and his skirmishes would have been called "massacres"...see how it works?

[@johnlee1352]

@@davidmelonakos6565 So...who is "guilty" of killing approximately 40,000+ innocent women and children in a flash at Nagasaki? The firebombing of Dresden? Thousands and thousands of innocent deaths and not a peep from you. Is it only when Mormons are involved that war is not hell? If it's Mormons, it was cold and calculated murder? If it's the US government then you give them a pass? Shame on you.

[@johnlee1352]

@@davidmelonakos6565 Did you think that Australia, Canada and New Zealand's participation WWII was "guilty"? Every death they caused was murder? After all, they hadn't been attacked so there was no war, huh? Clear your mind of the Mormon hatred and look at this objectively and you'll conclude that war is indeed hell...

[@davidmelonakos6565]

@@johnlee1352 just tell me one thing. do you think the mormons were in the right?

[@davidmelonakos6565]

do you think they were right to kill all those people?

[@davidmelonakos6565]

i’ll be more specific, do you think that specific group of people was right to do that?

[@callumkeithstewart8207]

I believe that John Doyle Lee was innocent. I read some of his story and I think the reason why he took the blame was so the Church didn't get the bad name. I personally think it was a huge misunderstanding and it is really hard to blame just 1 person. A lot of people just made bad personal decisions that lead to something horrific. Thank you for not being biased towards John Doyle Lee!

[@davidsnell2605]

The next episode will get into this topic more. In my opinion, John D. Lee was definitely guilty, but there were several other guilty parties as well that I wish would have met justice. Some ran from the law, one was let off easy for "turning state's evidence," and for a variety of reasons by the time trials came around, prosecutors only pursued the case against Lee, which was decades after the event (Civil War happened, among other things). Either way, it's quite a tragic, sad, and cautionary tale.

[@JohnDLee-im4lo]

It was a military operation of the regularly constituted Iron County Militia in a time of war. (See Utah War 1857-58). Innocents die in war all the time. Tragic but a reality of human conflict. Where are your tears for the 80,000+ innocent women and children who died in a flash at Hiroshima? Where is their hand-wringing for the 50,000+ at Nagasaki? Thousands at Dresden and other places? Huh?...Could it be that their desire to bash Mormons is the reason for their pearl clutching and feigned outrage for 122 people in 1857?

[@skylark1250]

John D. Lee ended up with part of the belongings stolen from the families he helped to murder. He took some of the gold and took one of the fancy carriages and built a new house for one of his wives. So his guilt as being an instigator at the behest of Brigham Young is known. Brigham Young ended up wealthy too. Gave a carriage to his favorite wife, built himself fancy houses, and used the gold stolen from the murdered families to finish the Temple in Salt Lake. Lee’s chilling willingness to coverup the murders and his improvement of circumstances after the killings says a lot about his evil character. Robbing the dead you have murdered indicates what the motive was to this tragedy. Greed and religious fanaticism. He wasn’t the only one who deserved to be punished. But he was the obvious one.

[@skylark1250]

The book to read is not the one suggested but Will Bagley’s and Sally Denton’s books on the massacre. Both are detailed and accurate.

[@johnlee1352]

@@skylark1250 160 year-old lies are still lies...

[@Doc-Pleroma-naut]

So Isaac Haight sent a letter asking Brigham Young for advice. Why didn't, local leaders wait for the church president's response. We don't even have Haight's letter among the existing evidence. All we have is Young's extremely odd response to Haight, hailed by Turner and others as Young's alibi, which said in regard to civilian wagon trains “passing through our settlements, we must not interfere with them until they are first notified to keep away. You must not meddle with them. The Indians we expect will do as they please but you should try and preserve good feelings with them.” Are you kidding me?: Why did Young have to send orders to the south not to 'interfere' with the emigrants? It is obvious this was calculated to correct a policy gone wrong if it arrived in time and to cover his tracks if received too late. The message was clear (wink-wink): make sure the Mormons could blame whatever happened on the Indians. This atrocity executed by religious fanatics who mindlessly obeyed their religious leaders, says a lot more about modern Mormonism than this channel likes to admit. Isn't the theocratic police state Young created as the Corporation of the President still under the control of its sole proprietor, the current LDS prophet. Why else does the Church have its own Church Security in place to monitor it's "Lost Sheep?" It's basically Scientology counter-espionage. If you think official histories died with the end of the Soviet Union, you haven't been to Utah. The Church has engaged in a massive effort to refute for instance John Krakuer's book. Just read Will Bagley's book, "Blood of the Prophets: Brigham Young and the Massacre at Mountain Meadows" for a little more unbiased insight. While it is true some LDS scholars are careful and fair religious historians, but when faced with the hardest questions about Young's pathological violence, all too often they tow the apologist line - Case in point here

[@davidsnell2605]

This is certainly a popular conspiracy theory that many (including Will Bagley) adhere to. You're certainly free to believe it, and we'll get into the question of Brigham Young's involvement in the next episode. Personally, I don't think the evidence backs this theory up. It seems to me more of an antagonistic approach to the situation from those who would love nothing more than to implicate a controversial figure like Brigham Young in a mass murder. I'll be the first to admit that Brigham Young was far from perfect and certainly had many incorrect ideas about a variety of things, but I wouldn't go so far as to pin this massacre on him, despite what William Bagley writes (far from an "unbiased" source in my view). This link will be in the description for the next episode, but for those curious about Bagley's claims, here's a good source: bit.ly/2VihWtC

[@Doc-Pleroma-naut]

@@davidsnell2605 Looking forward to it. Maybe you can address the Orphans testimony as well. They seem pretty clear what they saw. Now to be fair, the Mormons did take in these Orphans, and the recovered children were returned to their relatives in Arkansas. But....if having their parents murdered in from of their eyes, the Mormon guardians billed the U.S. government $7000 for care and feeding of the orphans. Let's just pre-emptively address how complicit Brigham Young was before your next video series. Brigham Young obstructed investigations and attempts to prosecute Mormons for any part in the crime. A dozen years after the massacre there still had been no justice for the victims. Under mounting pressure from both inside and outside the LDS Church, the Church finally conceded the involvement of a few renegade Mormons. John D. Lee was alleged to be the person ultimately responsible for the massacre and was excommunicated. A little more than Six years later, Lee was executed by firing squad, having been found guilty of first degree murder, the only person ever convicted for the atrocities at Mountain Meadows. Lee’s all-Mormon jury never attempted to explain how one man could have murdered 120 people with a gun, a tomahawk, a knife and a club, but they hoped the conviction would shift blame away from the Church and put a stop to non-Mormon speculation about the Church’s duplicity in the matter. As Apostle Heber Kimball counseled, “…when brother Brigham says dance, then dance; but when he says stop, then stop; and when he says prophesy, then prophesy, but be sure to prophesy right” (6 April 1857, Journal of Discourses 5:23). Total obedience was expected - dogmatic theocracy. It was clear then as it is today, people were indoctrinated through the exclusive teaching of Church leaders, and they placed a heavy emphasis on performance. To build "The Kingdom of God" , a total and absolute obedience to the law was/isrequired.

[@germanslice]

@@Doc-Pleroma-naut When you are dealing with the most powerful being in the universe which is God The Father, when he says dance, then you dance, when he says prophesy then you prophesy, when he says stop then you stop. You do not disobey the most powerful being in the Universe. That is why all the hosts of the kingdom of heaven worship God the Father and also the Lamb of God because they have the power and authority. God the Father's standard in the kingdom of heaven is obedience to his will because God has all the power that is why the Book of Mormon counsels us to be submissive, meek and humble.

[@davidsnell2605]

@@Doc-Pleroma-naut We both agree that the massacre was a horrible horrible crime. I'm not going to dedicate the time needed right now to sort out truth from error in your statement (or sometimes, "truth from unsubstantiated rumor"). Surely the next episode will address some of what you've brought up here. As you'll see, while I don't believe Brigham Young sanctioned this horrible massacre, I don't let him off scotch-free in every matter. The resources in the description of this video and next week's video should give inquiring minds enough information to mull over and come to their own conclusions. If they feel so inclined they're free to investigate any sources you care to provide as well. You and I, on some details, have come to different conclusions. That's inevitable in situations like these, but I respect your right to hold and defend those opinions. All the best.

[@Doc-Pleroma-naut]

germanslice 👌 complete non-sequitur to the original quote. It was referring to obedience to BY’s proclamations. - not God. Hence the backstory for the complicit actions of rabid fanatical followers. Sorry. You probably don’t have a copy of Journal of Discourses as your leaders are really uncomfortable with those sermons and probably had your household turn it in. Things like Brigham Young and the whole Adam being God doesn’t float to well with the flock. A reason J&Cs is minimized to mitigate an uncomfortable past.

[@midnightrunner684]

Words are but wind ,they hurt no one ..Farts are but wind too .But they offend everyone

[@larryearl4798]

I know this i I’m s old thread but I don’t think the humor is appropriate at all!

[@ItsameBenji]

Hmmmm

[@deavenhayes8187]

Yikes

[@shane7776777]

Damn

[@johnvillaflor2723]

This story reminds me about one of Jesus Christ apostle who with his sword, cut the ear of one of the roman soldiers when they tried to arrest the Savior. The disciples of Christ had swords with them ready to kill or be killed in defense of their Master and Lord Jesus Christ.

[@UrdnotSnarf]

True, but Jesus told Peter to sheath his sword. “Those who live by the sword shall die by the sword.” -Matthew 26:52

[@TheNorthernDon]

Ach...these things happen 🤷🏼