Does Warren Jeffs practice the same polygamy as Joseph Smith? | with Brian Hales

[@JIKOKALOL]

There is Holy and Sacred polygamy and there is Unrighteous polygamy. I prefer the Holy and Sacred version!

[@wendyfoster5579]

I have a very different attitude about polygamy after I learned I was from a 2nd wife. I am grateful for their sacrifice so I could have the gospel❤️

[@WhenIWasMormon]

Poly is just as beautiful as anything else. It’s using god to manipulate or force it that’s disgusting

[@richardprice5978]

@@WhenIWasMormon haveing lots of wife's and children but you're 💩at it doesn't = more exaltation or at least my grandpa's teaching me life's a balancing actions ect, so jeffs out of line polly needs to come back to the mainstream LDS faith as it's bothersome to me ( 6yo to nowadays ) and others, im a better person ( found that out in a non religious case/reasoning ) with 2-3 wifes than 1 or single and its a loophole for bi-females and lesbian-sexually activity's but not the main reason why im for it, also my classmate's got pregnant 🤰🤰with the same male the same week so now the children are forced into being on lousing team rather than the male being pressured to marry both and no more excuses for additional wife's/cheating on his marriage sorry gay-males ( and swinging? is a sin? ) is a sin in the church's ( biblical and Mormon-book ) but legally speaking i will not kinky shame so you do you

[@neoturfmasterMVS]

@@WhenIWasMormon Amen. The force and manipulate Joseph Smith used, disgusting.

[@RussellFineArt]

My great-great grandfather, George Reynolds, represented the entire church on plural marriage against the U.S. gov't. and I have his journal. Elder Reynolds was very clear in his writings and belief that plural marriage was ONLY for the purpose of being sealed to women who could not or had not married and been sealed to another man, for having and raising children and providing for them, out of commandment from God and out of duty. Reynolds had 20 children with 2 wives, 1 other wife could not bear children. Each wife with her children, lived in separate houses. Reynolds was clear that plural marriage was a commandment and not a desire of those who practiced it and only 3% of adult members practiced it, the vast majority of church members did not. So happy the practice is gone but yes, it's very different from how the fundamentalists and other polygamy groups practice it today.

[@rabbithole2015]

Very interesting. By chance is this journal available on line? You said he was commanded to practice polygamy. Why would God command it in Mormonism when He never commanded it in the Bible? In the Bible it seems he allowed it but never a specific command.

[@richardprice5978]

same man that's in the book called in god's lap? if so i was impressived by him im with the Jewish practice for marry your bother's widowed, my experience with Polly is her bi-girlfriend ( unmarried so in the religious old way she could be sealed ect ) so not my bother's but i did say just like Joseph smith if you died she has 1st rights for refusing the offer, good to learn that my bother keep his wife as it's not a sealing to me but on earth she can be mine wife if she wanted to, as i didn't know that answer i get it it's not for you as a polygamy but the church needs to bring it back as a option for membership's as i suck at monogamous marriage ( and don't do well unmarried ) but much better with 2-3 wives, and im not prodistaned/uk-churches

[@eduardozermeno2366]

My best friend is Muslim and their view on plural marriage is literally the same.

[@ErnieGomez12]

Why rejoice that it is not practiced today. The easing of the practice of consecration and celestial marriage came with a severe penalty. We were dispossessed of the unimaginable blessings that are poured out upon a people who actually build a city of enoch. Just because the church still upholds the commitment they made to the United States government to not teach celestial marriage doesn’t mean that it won’t be reinstated after we build the center stake.

[@raquellira3772]

​@@ErnieGomez12 The Church does teach "Celestial marriage"... Monogamous marriage is Celestial, as well.

[@brendakauffman8133]

Joseph Smith had underage wives, some as young as 14, which he gave 24 hours to decide if they would marry, with no adult around to consult with. Further he threatened that if they didn't say yes, then the gates of the kingdom would be closed to them but if they did both them and their entire family would have exaltation. This is all documented. You can read the journals of these ladies online.

[@MrRugbyrugbyrugby]

I highly doubt that

[@lukastimpson4047]

I live in Colorado City and grew up around the flds. I was a part of a second church in the area that is polygamist but less culty for lack of a better word. I love all 3 of my moms and the am grateful for them even though I would never practice polygamy myself and am an athiest. I think people view polygamy under the wrong lense most of the time and in my experience a large portion of polygamist families are very caring and supportive. It’s also nice growing up with lots of siblings, I am the oldest of 13 (so far) and I enjoy it!

[@richardprice5978]

i had my 2 girlfriends asked me to marry both ( as i didn't like picking a loser and they agreed as it was there idea 1st as it was a surprise question for me and i was okay for it but 2 scared 🐓 to do it ) of them in 2012-14 at 19yo~ and my first thought was how do i not get jailed and how do i raises my children to be good people as i didn't have a great example to look to, but love both = so maybe you could answer it? like how was elementary school? and the teacher asking about your family/moms or your dates or friends ect? nowadays it's on my list as i found im a better person being married to 2 or 3 wife's but i can't handle 4+ or 6+kids , and yes im vary science based mindfulness ( so for me it's not fully religious reasoning ) and in that regard Polly also makes some sense but not everyone needs to practice it, kinda like being gay-mindset as it's not for everyone and im not homosexual

[@beckischreyer]

You should listen to David Alexander’s KZbin video on polygamy…. It’s perhaps the best explanation for it I’ve heard ❤❤

[@clarestucki5151]

I wonder what motivated Joseph Smith to "ask of my (God's) hand" about why the OT prophets all had multiple wives and concubines???

[@johntheunique]

I would recommend when you study it out, study the life of Rulon C. Allred. He was an active, faithful LDS man whose father (Byron Harvey Allred, Jr) joined the Woolley group shortly after Rulon got married in the SLC temple. Rulon was devastated when he heard his father had apostatized. He carried on a correspondence with his father for about 6 months before eventually coming to believe that his father was right. A huge hinge point for him seemed to be the fact that his parents were polygamously married in Mexico post-Manifesto in 1903 with the sanction of the Church (Rulon was the son of a plural wife). His decision was not easy as he was unable to convert his wife to his way of seeing things. He lost a wife and several children that he dearly loved over his choice to join Musser's group and he yearned for the rest of his life to have his family reunited. It's overly simplistic to think that only simpletons could be duped by the Woolleys. Rulon was a trained medical doctor and obviously a very intelligent man.

[@matthewsailors3153]

The story you cite illustrates a good point and a warning. However, the best things for anyone vulnerable to deception (hint: that's all of us) to study out in their mind are the sources of true doctrine -- the scriptures, conference talks, and the best LDS scholarship available, of which Brother Hales' work is an excellent example.

[@neoturfmasterMVS]

Your right. Joseph Smith duped a good number of people, down to this day.

[@AtlasMusicArt]

The temple helps bring us closer to Jesus in a way that we couldn't on our own.

[@neoturfmasterMVS]

Jesus is the temple. Are you looking to some kind of building instead?

[@brentpoplawski]

Make sure you pay your tithing!

[@MarcosSobreiro-oi3ti]

D&C 132 ❤

[@leem3299]

Just read section 132 for yourself, and see how well it harmonizes with Jesus. Can you imagine Jesus saying Emma will be destroyed if she doesn't go along with Joseph taking so many wives? Etc. Heavy stuff. Good luck.

[@taylorsessions4143]

You say that as if Laban wasn't destroyed for trying to hold back nephi from obtaining the brass plates. When you really think about it, you can't find an example of the Lord tolerating any sin, so this definitely is a weak argument you've provided. You probably want it to say something like obey if you want you'll be considered righteous either way.

[@leem3299]

@@taylorsessions4143 Straw man argument. You're putting words in my mouth. You're constructing a "my best case against your worst case" scenario. Pretty weak argument to assert that my argument is weak. If you feel ok about how Emma was threatened with destruction, by a man she lived with, and claimed the authority of God over her - so he could go ahead and claim many other women as wives. If you're ok with that, and point to violent scripture stories to back yourself up, then who am I to stop you. But please don't become violent yourself at least. Please! Read the Gospels and come to know Jesus, and the God he knew.

[@taylorsessions4143]

@@leem3299 Gonna start answering which sins are tolerable in the sight of God or just sit there telling me my arguments are straw man? Pray about it brother, the spirit will bring you clarity. Emma is hardly the first person to receive chastisement in the doctrine and covenants. If you want to single her out as the only person who was disobedient and also rebuked for it you haven't studied too much.

[@leem3299]

@@taylorsessions4143 How was Emma disobedient?

[@taylorsessions4143]

@@leem3299 in this instance specifically, by not allowing her husband to obey God's commandment.

[@7dixiebug]

But certainly the Lord knew that Isaac was not a polygamist...so that's a problem, so why was Isaac mentioned as a polygamist? Also, in D&C 132 it says the Lord justified the polygamist relationships David and Solomon had. The B of M clearly states the exact opposite..that the polygamist relationships and concubines of those men are an abomination. They both can't be true so what's true? For my part, I will choose the Book of Mormon.

[@rabbithole2015]

So I always here comparisons with the men in the Bible like Abraham who practiced polygamy. The big difference is I don't see one single example of God specifically commending polygamy in the Bible. So why would God command it for Joseph Smith?

[@LuxuryPads90]

He did. I've read it. He commanded David to marry two women. If you want the ref, I'll find it for you. The rest of the women he had were not authorised. Jacob mentions this when he's chastising the men who think it's ok to commit adultery by copying previous old testament prophets.

[@rabbithole2015]

@@LuxuryPads90 Yes please reference the scripture where God commands polygamy or plurality of wives or concubines. God allowed polygamy but not once was it a command. If I'm wrong please show me where.

[@LuxuryPads90]

@@rabbithole2015 hi, so I've been searching extensively as I was sure I found the scripture where the Lord commands David to take two wives, abigail being one and micah being the other. I remember being led to it when I was contrasting it from Jacob as I was getting confused! I thought it was only a verse but I can't find it atm. However, when I did more cross referencing, the Lord does state/ confirm that he did give wives to David and Solomon in the Doctrine and Covenants, but only those whom He authorised. Any others were done in sin.

[@rabbithole2015]

@@LuxuryPads90 Thank you for looking. I'm looking for a command from God to practice polygamy in the Bible. Can you show me a scripture from the Bible where this happened? At best God allowed it but still no specific command.

[@LuxuryPads90]

@@rabbithole2015 I can't (atm) find it, but in the Doctrine and Covenants He does say He did. That's enough for me😊 would you like the Doctrine and Covenants reference? Thankfully (!!!) It's the exception and not the rule! And only to be done under strict rules.

[@dr__hennessy5193]

I watched Sweet, Pray and Obey yesterday. Jeez that was disgusting.

[@livingmombirth4005]

I wish Brian would talk more about the evidence for Joseph's polygamist sexual relationships. My understanding is that the one or two possible sources are very weak. For example, he considers the Fanny Algier information from an exmormon quoting Emma decades after the episode is a hard fact for a sexual relationship. I read the quote which refers to some vague notion about something inappropriate as nothing more than part of a smear campaign.

[@bobbyshiffler80]

He doesn’t talk about it because there’s essentially no evidence, only decades-after-the-fact recollections and accusations which were made in a climate of intense political and ecclesiastical pressure to show that the practice originated with Joseph. There is zero contemporaneous evidence of JS teaching or practicing polygamy. The only contemporaneous information you’ll find from JS are vociferous and unequivocal denials, excommunication of polygamy practitioners, and dedication to monogamy in word and deed

[@dr__hennessy5193]

He has other videos with links. Before making comments, research.

[@bobbyshiffler80]

@@dr__hennessy5193 “other videos with links” doesn’t refute my argument. Where is the contemporaneous evidence ?

[@dr__hennessy5193]

@@bobbyshiffler80 I wasn’t talking to you lol. My comment was to the original poster.

[@bobbyshiffler80]

@@dr__hennessy5193 sorry. Sometimes these KZbin comments are confusing. Thanks for letting me know.

[@ThreeD.s]

I have two comments. As I listened to you telling that the Angel had to come with a sword to get Joseph to practice polygamy, I wondered if it was a test of faithfulness to the early Saints?! It was taken away as it became too carnal or sexual. My second thought is that I am not comfortable thinking my husband would have a second wife so I don’t like polygamy either. But, I have faith that it is a higher law and if we are expected to do it in the eternities we will have more knowledge and acceptance as to why it should be practiced. It certainly does not make sense to me now and I’m GRATEFUL we’re not practicing it!!!

[@grassymeadows]

A lot of misinformation Advise: if you do not know don't even say it much less TRY to teach it

[@SaintsUnscripted]

I'd love to know what specifics you find to be misinformation within this episode; and what disqualifies the decades of research Brian Hales has published on the subject of polygamy.

[@grassymeadows]

Wilford Woodruff signed the manifesto but that is trying to change the word of God which no one can do. Ref. D&C Sec. 41:4

[@grassymeadows]

“JD 5:203-204 Heber C. Kimball October 12, 1856 SLC You might as well deny "Mormonism," and turn away from it, as to oppose the plurality of wives. Let the Presidency of this Church, and the Twelve Apostles, and all the authorities unite and say with one voice that they will oppose that doctrine, and the whole of them would be damned.”

[@kennethmoake1448]

​@@grassymeadows If we were to assume that prophets changing the policy or practice of the Church is "changing the word of God," then no practices could ever change. No new ordinances received, no temples built, no trek west, no polygamy in the first place. And it's very important to understand that doctrine never changed in any way when Wilford Woodruff announced that the church would no longer practice polygamy. The doctrine in the book of Jacob is consistent. When the Lord commands, it shall be practiced, and at no other time.

[@GMMXX80]

I'm sorry, this is still a GREAT VIDEO by-the-way where there are lots of good points and interesting to hear and benefit from his knowledge. Good video

[@claudiaramirez9362]

Yeah very different in terms of the control especially. Us in our family we're 7 and 1 son, then my father married another woman after our mom and my mom forced him to leave her and not see her or their children he has 2 sons and 2 daughters with her. Honestly i feel bad for them, and my mother and father always have pushed polygamy doctrines onto us and how to be good wives etc. But honestly we don't believe on what warren did just a disclaimer here.

[@richardprice5978]

storylines like this as my class mates got 14-17yo*~ ( sorry forgot the age but it was freshman ot junior year with driver's licenses aka not seniors ) pregnant in high school 🤰🤰the same week so now someone is pressured into single motherhood/losing-team rather than marriage to both and that's the end result and no more excuses to cheating afterward wedding day for some like me i found im a better husband to 2 wifes than 1wife or single bachelor aka i didn't go looking for it but found it in my lap as a living experience in my ~22yo-now

[@darimhorton8479]

The biggest evidence is HE said HE saw an Angel that forced him to marry multiple women? And have kids with them? So the evidence is HIS story, his word only. Seriously doesn't it seem strange to you all that no one outside the church will think this is even logical?

[@jaredjones777]

Book of mormon teaches against polygamy.

[@JoonyaaTV]

The truth is the Book of Mormon teaches against polygamy UNLESS God commands us to. Jacob 2:27-30 Wherefore, my brethren, hear me, and hearken to the word of the Lord: For there shall not any man among you have save it be one wife; and concubines he shall have none; For I, the Lord God, delight in the chastity of women. And whoredoms are an abomination before me; thus saith the Lord of Hosts. Wherefore, this people shall keep my commandments, saith the Lord of Hosts, or cursed be the land for their sakes. For if I will, saith the Lord of Hosts, raise up seed unto me, I will command my people; otherwise they shall hearken unto these things.

[@GMMXX80]

@@JoonyaaTV Yup. This guy's right. It's easier to give one commandment as the standard and then "pick your battles"? (Is the only phrase I can think of) then it is to give a little and then have to clean up later, in my experience, it's easier to make exceptions than start with exceptions and then try and be fair with everyone. I'll go with this response instead, absolutely. In the fields of work I've been in, yeah, God operates more this way than just to say "The Book of Mormon forbids it."

[@jbailey1898]

No, he didn't. He really didn't

[@peaceliberty4all]

@@JoonyaaTV Can you point me to any time in the Bible or Book of Mormon where God commanded polygamy to raise up seed? Seems to me if there were ever a time to institute polygamy it would be with Adam or Noah, yet somehow God was able to raise up seed without polygamy. The command God was referring to was monogamy, not polygamy.

[@JoonyaaTV]

@@peaceliberty4all I say this humbly with love😍 read the verses I posted and use your critical thinking skills. In the first few verses, God is talking about monogamy then says if he would raise up people until himself he would command it otherwise we should hearken unto what he says that clearly means in layman's terms: be monogamous unless I command you to practice polygamy to raise seed unto myself. Which practice would be easier to rapidly increase population? Men die more than women. If we need to practice monogamy a women cannot lawfully reproduce without marrying a man who is unmarried. Thus monogamy would be a sort of bottleneck situation for the growth of the Lord's people. Obviously if you read Jacob 2 God prefers monogamy but if he needs to raise up people until himself in certain situations he does call his people to practice polygamy and when He commands us to practice polygamy, polygamy is of God. Now if we practice polygamy in a time where God does not command it then polygamy is not of God.

[@MGD07524]

This is a hill I will die on Joseph Smith did NOT practice polygamy

[@dinocollins720]

Another fantastic video; thank you!

[@gd8205]

No mention of the Happiness Letter. How disappointing. Or should I say convenient.

[@SaintsUnscripted]

We've done several episodes about plural marriage in the past. It's impossible to fit everything into one concise video. Next week's Faith and Beliefs video addresses yet another common controversy regarding plural marriage. You'll find that it does discuss Marinda Nancy Johnson Hyde a bit (who is often involved in the Happiness Letter discussion), but the video itself also does not directly address that letter. That said, it's certainly something that we've got on our radar. Rest assured that it's not something we're avoiding.

[@EllaWilliams-z2n]

The information about the wooleys is incorrect and leaves out the direct connection to John taylor. As well as his revelation not recognized by the lds church.

[@vigneshiyer4334]

When Bible is there, why need for Book of Mormon?? Pure wickedness.. And mormon people are justifying the wickedness.. ??? Again, pure wickedness.. God never said one man will have the key. Nobody is sealing the marriage here.. And nobody is given any key.. God seals two people of opposite sexes as married, then they are one flesh... Marriage is always about one man as husband and one woman as wife which represents Christ Jesus as One leading from front (role husband plays) and we all human as one church as wife. Polygamy is wicked understanding. God warned Solomon and others to stop.

[@MrRugbyrugbyrugby]

Polygamy is literally codified in the law of Moses.

[@braddayton]

The logical leaps you guys make are making my brain hurt.

[@Hamann9631]

@braddayton. Example please. I didn't notice any logical leaps.

[@sylfa11]

What about those who are polygamous Muslim converts? Does the Church force the converts to divorce their wife’s?

[@Beastlango]

That would be interesting to know for any religion honestly, looks like I have a rabbit hole to go down. There is a fair amount of Christians who practice polygamy in Africa so they would probably keep them, but out side that is an interesting question.

[@brettmajeske3525]

Interesting question. The only polygamous Muslim that I know personally that joined the Church had all three of his wives divorce him (along with all but one of his children) because of his desire to join the Church. He ended up leaving the country and move to the US because of death threats from both his oldest son and younger brother. Last time we talked he had remarried an American.

[@Beastlango]

@@brettmajeske3525 interesting, it’s common for Ex Muslims to move away because of anti apostasy laws. The only Muslim convert I have heard from was the guy from “my name used to be Muhammad” but he wasn’t married and his father only ever had one wife at a time.

[@brettmajeske3525]

@@Beastlango All but one of the people I baptized on my mission where muslim, but they were mostly unmarried. Several Branch Presidents were also former Muslims, even though they were still a minority with the Church of France at the time. Towards the end of my Mission the MP was discouraging teaching them. The reason offered was based on immigration status and the potential for violence if they were returned back to their native countries. Here in the US I only know of a few who converted and they were all from African-American variants of Islam that do not practice polygamy. I actually know more American Jews have converted than American Muslims.

[@pdWald]

My understanding is that men anywhere with multiple wives cannot join the Church.

[@WhenIWasMormon]

That first scripture you showed literally doesn’t say the word monogamy or monogamous

[@itsdutchintime1907]

You look really depressed.

[@WhenIWasMormon]

@@itsdutchintime1907 the Mormon church and it’s practices are very depressing

[@Hamann9631]

@WhenIWasMormon, Are you talking about 3:46? That was Doctrines and Covenants section 132 verse 19 and it was the first scripture quote I saw when I rewatched it. It doesn't need to have the word, if it has the definition. That verse clearly describes one man and one woman, which is ....

[@Supamanpk]

Where do you/we ‘later’ find that sexuality was documented? Also what kind of documents were these, and did the documents appear before or after Joseph’s martyrdom? Anyone know or can link me to sources ?

[@matthewsailors3153]

You should check out the other recent video that Saints Unscripted did with Brother Hales about polyandry. Or just check out Brother Hales other work at FAIR conferences (here on KZbin) and his websites (referenced in the videos) where he shows the documentation.

[@SaintsUnscripted]

Hey Adam! Like Matthew mentioned, Brian Hales talks more about this in our previous episode with him (around minute 30), which you can watch here: kzbin.info/www/bejne/m3q3foJ4Z9WBj6s

[@brendakauffman8133]

you can read the dairies of some of his wives online. Also go to LDS discussions. It's from documented sources.

[@harryhenderson2479]

It would be wise for the LDS church to admit it was ugly practice. Own up to it and move on. Polygamy if entered between consenting adults is fine by me, but certainly not the coercive or forced polygamy we find in the early church.

[@georgemartin1383]

Polygamy is degenerate and the go to of powerful heretics like Joseph Smith and Mohammad.

[@jaredjones777]

What about emma being destroyed if she didn't accept polygamy?

[@spencermarsh4253]

Emma wasn’t specifically promised destruction for not accepting polygamy. She was promised destruction if she was with another man after JS after entering into the new and everlasting covenant. Read D&C 132:54 carefully. It commands Emma to “abide and cleave unto my servant Joseph, and to none else. But if she will not abide this commandment [to abide with and cleave into JS and none else] she shall be destroyed, saith the Lord; for I am the Lord thy God, and will destroy her if she abide not in my law.” Given, D&C 132:64 strongly suggests that those women who don’t accept plural marriage as divine will be destroyed: “And again, verily, verily, I say unto you, if any man have a wife, who holds the keys of this power, and he teaches unto her the law of my priesthood, as pertaining to these things, then shall she believe and administer unto him, or she shall be destroyed, saith the Lord your God; for I will destroy her; for I will magnify my name upon all those who receive and abide in my law.” It seems that women were meant to select new spouses for their husbands just as Sarah selected Hagar for Abraham. If a man’s first wife didn’t accept polygamy as divine, a man was free to marry whom he wished. A couple of notes on that: 1. We still don’t know what destroy means in this context. I’m not sure of any women who were struck dead after denying polygamy’s divinity. Emma comes to mind as an example of someone that that didn’t happen to. Though that’s certainly a question I’ve never explored in depth and I’ll need to. 2. I think that women selecting new husbands is an interesting way of balancing the power dynamic between men and women during polygamy, because one of the arguments against legalized polygamy in the United States is that it will encourage competition for mates in males and lead to more violence. A woman, under what this revelation states, could theoretically balance this out by only selecting new mates as she believed the husband was worthy of. Theoretically she could accept plural marriage as divine and not elect new spouses for her husband if he were exercising unrighteous dominion over her or if he were not treating other men and women with respect. In the end we’re not entirely sure what’s going on in D&C 132. V. 66 promises further regulation and knowledge on plural marriage that never came.

[@matthewsailors3153]

When God commands someone to do something, they will lose blessings if they disobey His will for them. Some commandments are for all people and some are for particular groups, and that's what we're dealing with when it comes to Emma Smith and plural marriage. Emma was commanded by God to accept and support her husband as he tried to implement plural marriage. The verses in Section 132 which you allude to apply to her specifically, not to the Saints generally, because she was rebelling against what her husband was commanded to do. Only those divinely commanded and authorized through the proper Priesthood channels to participate in plural marriage were under the requirement in God's eyes, and were therefore subject to losing blessings if they disobeyed that command. Those who did not receive this commandment could not disobey it and, therefore, were not liable to be damned for not practicing plural marriage.

[@grassymeadows]

But for what we know Joseph did say that He would take Emma to Heaven even if He had to go to hell to get her

[@awfulwaffle1341]

What about it?

[@daviddrysdale8882]

It sounds borderline silly, for lack of a better word, to delve into Warren Jeff's thoughts, doings, etc.

[@ThomasFackrell]

Considering the fact that Joseph Smith wasn’t a polygamist, a more interesting and relevant question is how closely Brigham Young’s polygamy resembled that of Warren Jeffs.

[@clearstonewindows]

? My grandpa's grand aunt is one of of his wives. I have her journal.

[@geralddavis3326]

So you just listened to this gentleman who is an authority on the subject tell us Joseph Smith practiced polygamy and you say he wasn't, I question where is your knowledge coming from, unless that was a spelling mistake.

[@ThomasFackrell]

@@geralddavis3326 read the source materials for yourself. Or listen to “the authority.” Up to you. I recommend the website and KZbin channel Hemlock Knots for seekers such as yourself.

[@clearstonewindows]

@@ThomasFackrell literally me. Walker... She's mentioned in this video.

[@ThomasFackrell]

@@clearstonewindows that’s great you have a journal. It ought to be considered with all the other source documents. But I hold Joseph’s, Emma’s, and Joseph and Emma’s children’s word about Joseph being a monogamist much more seriously than some late Utah journal entries. Many women wrote in their journals that they were tied to Joseph somehow. Do we trust their accounts in light of all the false swearing and lying under duress which took place in the days of Deseret? Are we confident any references are actually talking about polygamy? Or is it talking about being “sealed” to or “adopted by” Joseph Smith? There’s so much involved in this messy history.

[@coalhouse1981]

Without Joseph Smith there no Warren Jeff's

[@mateomartinez8641]

Such a silly comment

[@coalhouse1981]

@@mateomartinez8641 how so

[@Hamann9631]

@@coalhouse1981 Warren Jeffs doesn't follow Joseph Smith's example.

[@coalhouse1981]

@@Hamann9631 that’s demostrably untrue

[@Hamann9631]

@@coalhouse1981 Actually, this video is a demonstrating of the significant differences between the 2.

[@mikefoxtrot1314]

To an outside observer, would Warren Jeffs’ LDS church or Russell Nelson’s LDS church be seen as closer, in doctrine and practice, to the church Joseph Smith left in Nauvoo when he was murdered?

[@MitchellClark10]

Would Judaism or Christianity be seen as closer, in doctrine and practice, to the ministry of Abraham, Moses, etc.? The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints (just like the first Christians) believe and accept new revelations.

[@mikefoxtrot1314]

@@MitchellClark10 Since there have been several branches since Joseph Smith died, how would someone know if they were in a church being led by a false prophet vs. a real prophet?

[@vendingdudes]

Neither one is exactly the same. Do you propose a weighted point system to be assigned to each difference? How would you even begin to accurately answer such a nebulous question?

[@mikefoxtrot1314]

@@vendingdudes I’m pointing out the fact that Joseph Smith restored a church with particular doctrines and practices which he claimed were restored truths from ancient Judaism and Christianity. If someone were to list out the important doctrines and practices from Joseph’s 1844 version of Mormonism that have been changed in the present churches run by Nelson and Jeffs, do you think one list would be longer? What might be on those lists? Sorry if that all came across as nebulous. Would you like to work on some lists together?

[@kellycharles4765]

Hello! Here’s a random testimony. ^-^ I believe the importance behind the restoration has to do with the loss of prophets and apostles. I believe that Jesus Christ is the head of the church, and that He is our advocate with our Heavenly Father. I also believe that structured revelation is just as important as personal revelation. I believe that He used Joseph Smith during the exact time needed to restore priesthood authority onto the earth. During Christ’s day, how many Jewish people were excited by the disciples assertions? Even before that time, I look through the Old Testament scriptures, and I see God working with fallible people who refused, even up to Jesus’ time, to accept anything but the law of Moses. Bit by bit, He found ways teach and correct them. So for me it seems, His goal seems to leading toward growth. Christ’s disciples believed He fulfilled ancient prophecies and was the Messiah. Jewish leaders of the time didn’t want to be replaced, etc., and they considered Him a heretic. He challenged and demanded for a ‘higher law’. One teaching that many people do not agree with The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints on, is the belief in exaltation. In my own words, it’s the belief that stagnation is not the end goal of our salvation. So, yes. I see your point that many things have changed over the years, but I see that as proof that Heavenly Father values growth and He wants us to be like Him no matter what time we might be born into. I always found the contrary strange, I’m glad He views my life with infinite growth opportunities and wants to be involved in the details of my life if I’ll let him. I have Aspergers and I have had people who do not treat me through words or actions as an intelligent being who has growth opportunities, but I know Heavenly Father does. That’s why the testimony I have prayed for regarding the restoration means so much to me, it’s not simply being returned to a previous state, it’s thriving and changing in ways that people say shouldn’t be possible. I know He loves me as I am, and He also loves me enough to say that He thinks I have not only earthly potential but actual divine potential. I’m so grateful He actually views me as His daughter, and wants to have that relationship with whoever is willing. Having a relationship with Him has changed my life and I’m grateful for the hope and inspiration that helps me grow happily. So… my belief is that revelation is essential for the human family as a whole, and also as an individual. The entirety of Doctrine and Covenants, General Conference, etc.… count as revelation. If you’re interested in reading more about what’s been revealed and implemented over the years then it might be here. Even if it wasn’t helpful to you I hope that the following resources might be of use. If still no… eh 🤷🏻‍♀️ Hope you have a good day 😊 newsroom.churchofjesuschrist.org/article/divine-revelation-modern-times www.churchofjesuschrist.org/comeuntochrist/believe/restoration/the-church-of-jesus-christ-is-restored www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/ensign/1987/04/this-day-is-this-scripture-fulfilled?lang=eng www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/nt/john/13?lang=eng www.churchofjesuschrist.o​rg/study/scriptures/ot/jer/2? lang=eng&id=13#p13 www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/bofm/2-ne/29?lang=eng universe.byu.edu/2021/10/01/timeline-explores-history-of-general-conference/ www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference?lang=eng www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/church-history?lang=eng www.churchofjesuschrist.org/search?query=Policy+changes&lang=eng&facet=news-and-events&hidefacets=true&page=1 www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/liahona/2021/12/come-follow-me/why-does-church-policy-sometimes-change?lang=eng

[@aritzlizarragaolascoaga6254]

Plural marriage is put on hold, but it will return. And, it's essential for the highest degree of exaltation. This is our doctrine too.

[@SaintsUnscripted]

I'd love to know what your source is for plural marriage returning again and such being our doctrine.

[@aritzlizarragaolascoaga6254]

@@SaintsUnscripted Isaiah (7 women for a man; man will be more valuable than gold) and the recent change of the temple wording. The church's explanation says that the 7 women scripture refers to marriage. Now things are calm, but when war and famine breaks out our perspective will change.

[@aritzlizarragaolascoaga6254]

@@SaintsUnscripted there’s no point in changing the formula to be more ambiguous unless it’s for a justified reason.

[@Ily779]

As a member…It’s getting really annoying and creepy seeing all these LDS men constantly commenting on polygamy returning in the future. I’m seeing it everywhere. It feels gross and like they are rooting for it. None of the prophets or apostles have said it will. That verse could be in reference to what polygamy was already done in the church, 200 years ago is still the last days…There are plenty of men available, they just aren’t willing to raise their standards and grow up. Stop pornography, stop being selfish. I doubt the lord is going to subject good faithful women to the men now days who want free reign to sleep with multiple women in some pornographic fantasy when they can’t even treat one right.

[@pdWald]

I don't think that's true. I belive it's been established that plural marriage is the exception and not the rule. We won't see it again.

[@logannance10]

I'd like something more on why we can get divorced when the Savior seemed to forbid it.

[@TheSevengems]

Adultery and infidelity.

[@SaintsUnscripted]

Hi Leon! Thanks for your question. In 2007, Elder Oaks taught, "Because 'of the hardness of [our] hearts,' the Lord does not currently enforce the consequences of the celestial standard. He permits divorced persons to marry again without the stain of immorality specified in the higher law. Unless a divorced member has committed serious transgressions, he or she can become eligible for a temple recommend under the same worthiness standards that apply to other members." You can read the rest of Oaks' response here: www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/2007/04/divorce?lang=eng We also have a number of episodes about divorce that I highly recommend watching. They can be found in our 'Dating and Marriage' playlist: kzbin.info/aero/PL_VwunTjPjRG2c8zWhGHUxVyByeD5iYZx

[@hootowlholler3760]

@@SaintsUnscripted not surprising that you believe the double married Oaks. Do as I say, not as I do. Ha!

[@MusicBlik]

@@hootowlholler3760 Is it a problem that a widower remarries?

[@beefmaster4]

I watched an antimormon video comparing these two with speakers from the flds who left, and their comparisons were pretty ridiculous. Thank you for this video. One thing they said though was about Joseph saying a lot of not good sexual things in a passing comment without clarification. I couldn't find it anywhere. Can anyone point me toward what they might have been talking about?

[@alesso_me]

I don't know what video youre referring to or what comments were made, but I would err on the side of believing what an (ex)FLDS person says about their religion than a desperate apologist

[@SaintsUnscripted]

Hi Pamela! Brian briefly discusses that topic in our episode (around 14:25) and concludes that he could not find anything to support such accusations.

[@vendingdudes]

@@alesso_me so one who seeks to be transparent and critically examine evidence is "desperate" but one who leaves a faith and attacks another is more believable? 🤣

[@westonwoodbury3011]

FLDS is a Brighamite church, as is our Lds church. It should be Brigham vs warn Jeff’s polygamy. Brigham seems to have really exercised unrighteous dominion. Joseph was no polygamist.

[@robbhays8077]

No. Next question.

[@StevenJenkins-l6y]

God has no problem with a man having more than one wife when he okays it. Have you ever thought about this. We all have a Mother in heaven but I do not believe that we all have the same Mother.

[@Claytonguyperson]

That feels far-fetched to me. I think our Heavenly Mother is the same for everyone.

[@StevenJenkins-l6y]

In the church website under The Beginnings of Plural Marriage in the Church says, Joseph prayed to know why God justified Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Moses, David, and Solomon in having many wives. The Lord responded that He had commanded them to enter into the practice. Why would God command Joseph to practice plural marriages if God does not practice it himself. That does not make sense. We have more than 1 Mother in Heaven. I thought you were an expert in polygamy, I now differ with that.@@Claytonguyperson

[@jaredjones777]

Section 132 sounds more like Brigham Young to me.

[@geralddavis3326]

Wow! Can you prove that statement as well.

[@peaceliberty4all]

@@geralddavis3326 Emma Smith stated that the first time she heard of the revelation was when it was published in 1853.

[@prezp00nage24]

Joseph Smith never practiced polygamy. All forms of polygamy are an abomination before the Lord.

[@darimhorton8479]

So... You're justifying Joseph Smith's horrible practice, because Warren's is even worse? Wou... Just wou...

[@TheAdventurer1]

What nonsense. All LDS propoganda..

[@BGCflyer]

…Brian Hales, great information on the LDS view of early polygamy. At least the LDS church admits it now. 50 years ago, Brian would have been excommunicated for publishing this.

[@richardprice5978]

why the internal hate? as im for polygamy it needs to come back

[@jaredjones777]

The angel story is bogus it was a lie of Brigham Young!

[@geralddavis3326]

Don't say those things unless you got the proof to back up that statement. Do you?

[@prestonochsenhirt1246]

First...