Why Super Saiyan 4 is NOT after Super Saiyan 3

In this video, we look at the World of Dragon Ball in more detail.
Credit
Thumbnail - MrAlexY2 on X

[@dmnapier7]

The reason Goku had to get his tail back is because he needed to visit his roots. Tapping more into the Sayians natural primal instincts. That's also why he had to become an ape, to master the power that came with that. That's my hypothesis

[@sedivh0]

Natural order

[@not-OJ-Simpson]

I thought this was the explanation given in the Japanese dub

[@dmnapier7]

@@not-OJ-Simpson Hell yeah, I grew up watching the English dub. However, I always knew that America changes up content from other regions.

[@autohrap5884]

It’s dragonball… there is always another level

[@great159]

Another boring looking form that shows nothing different than the last form. SSJ2 Gohan showed how much more powerful and faster he was over SSJ1 by killing the Cell Jrs with ONE HIT! SSJ3 didn't show shit different. We don't see a difference until UI Goku🤓💯

[@Master_Kenway]

Fr 😂 but that's why we love it

[@OptimalOptimus-en5sz]

Remember that according to Dragon Ball Lore, Saiyans are stronger WITH their tails than without, even when not in their great ape forms. This is shown in OG Dragon Ball when Goku grew his tail back in his first World Martial Arts tournament. The Legend of the Super Saiyan implies that the Super Saiyan of Legend would have their tail because tails are a part of a Saiyan's biology. Goku theoretically had untapped potential when he first became a Super Saiyan because he didn't have his tail at the time. When he grew it back in GT when he reverted back to a child, that previously untapped potential became accessible to him once again and Super Saiyan 4 is merely what a Super Saiyan is truly supposed to be: The true potential of a Saiyan with their tail intact.

[@shakyrob6512]

Yeah 4 would just be SSJ with "1-3" being little better than partial unlocks that tap into the true potential of it while never actually achieving the goal.

[@ssppeeaarr]

ya just makes GT ss4 epic. that is what the og ss always looked like...or would have look like. especially the one vegeta talked about who was in golden ape way back on namek dbz. all the ss forms we see are no tails golden are the altered. sad toriyama is gone and will never make a canon form of it tho. rip... but now with toyo in charge im sure it will come eventually. or something close.

[@TheSCPStudio]

Doesn’t work because a tail is simply an extension of the spine. We have tails, that’s what a tailbone is lol. A very small tail. So basically the entire lore of a tail being cut off doesn’t make much sense. However it DOES make Super’s explanation of the SSJ power more consistent at least. Also, Goku’s tail ‘growing back’ didn’t make him stronger; it gave him a unplanned physical advantage lol. Like the entire reason it stops growing back in the first place is because the base form surpasses the great ape form. So your theory doesn’t hold any water in any regard. SSJ is fundamentally stronger than great ape since it alters base form after unlocking it and thus the tail is a non factor. Like, the only instance in DB where a tail is shown to actually make a Saiyan stronger is GT which is what we’re disproving here… the only other reason the tail is even important is because it allows access to the great ape form which is typically stronger than a base form. But as I said, the ape form is useless after a point because the tail even stops growing back once base is stronger. So why would a tail enhance anything after that point?

[@ssppeeaarr]

@@TheSCPStudio it was always a neat part of the saiyan lore tho. hyped by radditz and the pride of the saiyan race. gave them that extra edge to dominate over others. aside from ssj legend but this power all pure saiyans can get! cause tails. but sad the ape forms werent used. wasted potential. in canon after namek in dbz. or they could have made it to where u can stack buffs on it. to the ape form. like goku does with god ki. ssb. at least one saiyan should have this ability... broly seems worthy and most likely. lol so there is hope.

[@Salazar.945]

SS1 and SS4 are the only real transformations. SS2 and SS3 are just SS1 but with more power behind it. SS2 is just mastery over the original transformation, and SS3 is just the equivalent of the overly muscular form Trunks did in the Cell saga. But instead of costing the users speed it costs the users stamina. By this logic SS2 is the true SS1 and SS4 is the true SS2.

[@maridiancrest243]

Regular Super Saiyan 1 was a mutation too as the Original Super Saiyan was a golden Oozaru. It could even be argued that SS4 is a mutation of the Golden Oozaru as Golden Oozaru could have its own SS2 golden Oozaru and SS3 Golden Oozaru

[@mr.knightthedetective7435]

Remember Toriyamas original design for SSG with golden hair between SSJ3 and SSJ4 (its in the thumbnail of the bid)? Well that's what canonical "SSJ4" could look like and be a natural mutation of SSJ form past SSJ3

[@Alassandros]

Technically, DBS Broly mixing Ikari with Super Saiyan and gaining control is a canon SS4. Maybe they can give him his tail to complete the concept.

[@Utopia390rl]

@@Alassandros I see it as more of a reimagining of SS4, much like Super Broly is a reimagining of Z Broly. Though I also see potential to bring back the regular SS4 as a perfection of Ikari due to gaining control and perfectly merging the two forms

[@Alassandros]

@@Utopia390rl Interesting. I also like to think the fur around DBS Broly was a means of including a fur aspect that was so signature to SS4.

[@Utopia390rl]

@@Alassandros maybe, though it would only be design-wise

[@Alassandros]

@@Utopia390rl Right, of course. I meant to imply that as a design only aspect.

[@uncannytheos2454]

Ssj 4 is a new branch for new levels of transformations. Still wish they explored more for that

[@majinrebornx2220]

I PERSONALLY think that if Toriyama kept writing the next Super Saiyan form (Grade 7) would be Goku being able to harness the power of Super Saiyan 3 through normal Super Saiyan. This would increase his power but without loosing his energy. I think this is what Toriyama was ultimately building upto and is reflected with SsjB. It would be named something like Super Saiyan Limit Breaker and it would look exactly like the standard Super Saiyan form BUT it would have bio electricity and Ssj3 eyes.

[@TheSCPStudio]

Oh to be a naive fan. Head canon at its finest. SSJ3 is fundamentally flawed and unable to be controlled. That’s the entire point and the entire reason Super exists. There was no way for Goku to power up past SSJ3 without adding some convoluted Saiyan blood mechanic like you suggested or to give him an entirely different path, such as the divine one in Super in which he stacks his mortal abilities with divine ones.

[@tfkoincognito]

@TheSCPStudio let's be completely fair, only reason ssj3 was restricted is because akira was lazy and didn't like drawing that.

[@majinrebornx2220]

@@TheSCPStudio naive fan? I live in Japan, own the 42 volume manga, have several rare collectibles including valuable cards and Blu-rays and have loved and read DB since I was 10. I'm no naive fan and I know what Ssj3 is, and how it was betrayed in the manga. However, the Buu saga was clearly building up to some sort of transformation that was perfect and was energy efficient. The series and the manga both show this with statements from Elder Kai. This is also reflected in SsjB and the reason there is no SsjB2 or Blue 3. Also the interview Toriyama gave about Ssj2 and Ssj3 sapping so much energy and that Goku will rely on only Super Saiyan is evidence to this. Yes, it's head canon but it's based on fact and evidence.

[@Demi_Arts]

@majinrebornx2220 No. No it is not. The Cell Saga showed what it looked like when Goku was trying to perfect a transformation & ascend. He did NONE of that in the Buu saga.

[@andythegoatman694]

The golden ssj4 in the thumbnail is a nice shout out and would be cool as the real next level after 3

[@devilshooter126m8]

Great video to answer if the Golden Form after SSJ3 (Grade 7) could be stronger than SSJ4 remember SSJ4 was said to strongest form a Saiyan can reach naturally, So I dont think so.

[@lidge1994]

I would say this (as a person that hasn't watch that much Dragon Ball and not in a while). There's 3 types of transformations available to the saiyans (whether genetically or obtainable by others): 1. Super Saiyan - Super Saiyan 2 - Super Saiyan 3 - Something beyond it, possibly mastered, faster, more condensed power etc. 2. Great Oozaru - Golden Oozaru - Super Oozaru (What we call Super Saiyan 4, but might just the next step, controlling and condensing greater power like Super Saiyan 2 is to Grade 2 and 3) etc. 3. God Ki utilization (Super Saiyan God) - God Ki Super Saiyan (Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan / Blue) - God Ki Super Saiyan 2 (Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan Evolved) etc.

[@kamenrangerzeo8251]

The 4th day of May is the highlight for the power of Super Saiyan 4.

[@mikael557]

¡Quatro De Mayo!

[@Exalted-gt5jm]

May the fourth be with you sir

[@MinhLe19303]

Yeah, I do think there's a normal counterpart of Rose Full Power, which is the ultimate evolution of Super Saiyan and other counterpart.

[@bensoncheung2801]

Me too.

[@TheSCPStudio]

SSJ Rose is literally just SSB my dude. It’s just the result of pure divine ki utilizing SSJ rather than the ‘borrowed’ divine ki that Goku and Vegeta possess. They even explain that in the series. I don’t get why you’re just making things up lol

[@MinhLe19303]

@@TheSCPStudio In the anime, SSR is treated more as a divine mutation of SS1, rather than a different result of combining SSG with normal SS1, both form he didn't show to have. That's why rather than using Rose Evolution, Heroes continues the trend of expanding anime concepts like what they did with Z Broly, and give a mutation of SS1 to SS3. I think the reason why it's the way it is, is because Zamasu's soul altered Goku's Saiyan biology, not seperate his divine ki with mortal ki the same way Goku has his mortal Saiyan ki and his SSG god ki.

[@randomboi.-.]

​@@TheSCPStudio 3 months late but... I'm glad to know you read the manga... but didn't watch the anime. At least not enough to understand the difference between the manga and anime versions of SSB and SSR.

[@_sacredseven_]

I want a Beast / SS4 Hybrid. Gohan go beast after oozaru state. Ss4 in general is the most interesting to me. The fact that they have to tap into their true primal form first. Activated by blutz waves. All of it. Seems the most true to saiyan roots. Gokus ss3 does look great on him though. Feels the most fitting to him specifically. Ss4 is just so bad ass

[@kingrobotnik6950]

I always saw SSJ3 as what happens where after unlocking ssj1, that bursting rage, SSJ 2 was after training it but still under limitation. SSJ3 is what happens after you remove the limitation causing it to be intense in power and strain on the body. SSJ4 though is a primal form of SSJ. My guess is, it’s the true power of a saiyan but it requires awakening that initial SSJ then harnessing the power of a great ape combined with the lunar energy linked to the great ape form and subsequently the saiyan body as a whole. It requires a deep understanding of who you are as a saiyan to be able to unlock it as Goku(and Vegeta) had to look within themselves AS the great ape.

[@williamcase426]

Super saiyan is on another level

[@azimuddin1890]

What level is that? 50? Level 150,000,000 ;)

[@ssppeeaarr]

nameless namekian still stomps tho the og ss... lol if orange is what that is.

[@MetaITurtle]

Maybe SS4 isn't it's final form? The hair is still black, maybe the true form has gold hair

[@megacrapul]

As in the form is incomplete? Fair. Or maybe ss4 is like a New base form?(i can dream)

[@Master_Kenway]

FR

[@Faming59]

maybe. it could be that he only needed ss in his great ape form to unlock. but in terms of golden hair ss it wouldn't count it. so maybe it could be refined more to get a golden hair or a completely different one. or maybe he could mix it like how they went with god and if that's true and ss4 evolved more it could have so much of a power boost. given how this was supposed to be accessed once he got ss and turned into a great ape the next time a full moon got shown it could have some major growth like ss did. but since yannow no tail it was kinda lost and since goku or well anyone doesn't know about this. this will probably never happen again. unless told for plot or it being accidental like gt was. would love to see this form return in super but i doubt it

[@luckiestbrush62]

Reminder, gogeta ssj4 had red hair

[@Faming59]

@@luckiestbrush62 yeah and vegeta was like brown to dark redish colour. i think depending on the user it changes colour a bit. and fusions might make the hair colour even more different. especially since a fusion is a new person

[@zenkairanger]

This has gotta be one of my favorite videos.

[@ginnungagapabyss5639]

I guess Goten, and Trunks could give us something something beyond SSJ3.

[@Yuvaldyn]

Future trunks did

[@ginnungagapabyss5639]

@@Yuvaldyn he gave us a form beyond SSJ2, but it honestly seemed like it was him adapting the god ki or god ki affecting him.

[@shawnmcvey7789]

​@@ginnungagapabyss5639I think Saiyans are a lot like talented musicians: if they can hang around people above them in skill long enough they end up there.

[@ginnungagapabyss5639]

@@shawnmcvey7789 right

[@Yuvaldyn]

@@ginnungagapabyss5639 Well yes it was something beyond ssj2 but it was still a pure sayian form, I dont think there was god ki involved nor it was stated to be.

[@jeffreyfitch1006]

If you didn't have someone like Goku figuring out the higher grades of Super Saiyan(SS2 & SS3), you could argue that SS4 is the next form, assuming no one knew about the higher grades of Super Saiyan. And it would've been nice to see Goku reach a level where SS3 didn't drain his stamina so fast.

[@canhebeatgoku.]

For anyone who sees this, have a great day! 😊

[@mattanderson5627]

I have always seen super Saiyan 4 as more of a super oozaru then a regular super Saiyan form

[@rojaedavis8367]

I mean that’s basically what it was. The power of the Golden Great Ape compressed into a fighting form. I feel calling it SS4 is a misnomer and is just called that for convenience sake.

[@rickydiscord7671]

@@rojaedavis8367 like "super saiyan god" than a bit later with blue "super saiyan god super saiyan" and I was like "dude just call it Saiyan God.." is just base and blue "just call it Super Saiyan God."

[@aayewhyy]

Ssj 3 full power could have mui / ue in it but the aura is golden like regular ssj3 ( basically a saiyans ultimate form ) ( then further mastery would allow them to use the ultimate saiyan form in base )

[@ruckustomfoolery9441]

Dude, are you crazy to give me so much nostalgia with that intro and song

[@casanovasparks89]

Came to see if this was another ssj4 is actual Ssj5 because 4 would be great ape synopsis. Pleasantly surprised.

[@ElMalito187]

I love the thumbnail picture because of how awesome it looks but the reality is that character design signifies SSJ6 transformation. In the fandom lore community, SSJ6 is the SSJ version of SSJ5 because SSJ5 is all white and bright greyish fur. Apparently in Young Jiji's Dragon Ball AF series, Gohan had attained a unique version of SSJ6 which was tailored just for him. It's a mixture of Gohan Beast hairstyle and Ultra Ego extended eyebrow ridges. Search The Birth of SSJ6 Vegeta, there's two videos on it and it's pretty interesting on how it adds additional lore to SSJ6 even though it's from another artist who is known for taking after Young Jiji's Dragon Ball AF series. Cheers 🍻

[@azimuddin1890]

I call Super Sayiajin 4, Primal Super Sayiajin which makes sense. I think Oozaru Super Sayiajin also makes sense to me too but then again, isn’t that what Golden Oozaru is?

[@maridiancrest243]

I think SS4 is a mutation of Golden Oozaru. Golden Oozaru could have gone SS2 and SS3 too but instead of staying in ape form it mutated to human form.

[@azimuddin1890]

@@maridiancrest243 Imagine an S.S.3 Golden Oozaru. Or an S.S.4 Oozaru, lol.

[@akeru833]

shouldn't that be Super Golden Oozaru and then ssj"4"? @@maridiancrest243

[@benjaminericnewell5705]

I think he'd get a form similar to Cumber's Super Saiyan 3 Full Power that would lack the form's Evil Aura.

[@abraarquraishi1681]

If he continued down the super sayain route, do you think at some point, his body wouldn’t be able to hold that much ki/power and it spills out, thus creating something similar to the “susano” he created with ultra instinct. Because i see only two ways of attaining a power that surpasses your body’s limit, either transform your body into something that can withstand that power, like ozaru or ssj4, or use externally store/use that power, like a “susano” or an aura.

[@yungblade7]

Scholar you should do a video theorizing about ssj 5 using info from AF and Young Ji Ji 🙌🏿

[@bradcalhoun8976]

He obtained it with that Super Kiaoken against Pikkon.

[@thecosmictatertot7149]

I think the final golden form would be stronger than ssj4 because of the theme of each level being multiple times stronger than the one before, it being even just 2x stronger than ssj3 is already more than ssj4, being only 500x compared to at least 800x.

[@Yo_chan-t1i]

Ssj 4 is basically your primal ape power in base from . Also it's bring your primel power .

[@retrocity1793]

I'm so glad someone brought this up

[@michaelsong3733]

I'd actually say Goku being dead was a DETRIMET interms of base power. Having not only a goal, but training partners highly increases your power level. Vegeta wasn't too far off from Goku after 7 years, they both surpassed Teen Gohan. Now imagine if they trained together, or if they could just sense how powerful the other was and our further. He wouldn't have SSJ3 or Fusion. But talking base-base I think dying was detrimental.

[@dawidswanepoel2523]

You definitely have to have access to ssj 3 to turn into ssj 4, I know vegeta never showed going ssj 3 on his own but I believe baby vegeta ( super baby vegeta ) was in a ssj 3 like state and therefore vegetas body retained the memory of ssj 3 and that is why he was able to go ssj 4 after great ape

[@rblxcaviarbread990]

I havent started the video yet, but SaiyanScholar, I think this is a HUGE stretch I think you might just be making the plot deeper then it actually is....

[@MallyGtv]

It would make sense if gohan get some type of next level beast form that looks like SSJ4

[@Morosveil]

the raging blast music is making me explode

[@shadowgarden8557]

is ssj god rlly a super sayian form or is it the users base form shrouded in god ki?

[@DanielMWJ]

It's not super saiyan. It's purely marketing. They just had to jam "super saiyan" onto it despite it just being "saiyan god".

[@Maplechab]

The BD intro is fire ma man🔥

[@Arcadia_warlic]

It makes one question what would happen if they combined Super Saiyan 2 or 3 with the Ōzaru instead of regular Super Saiyan.

[@stanleech666]

always wondered if Goku kind of combined Broly's Ikari form with SSJ2 bc of the obvious Great Ape influence and the eyes look like Ikari mixed with SSJ, the double iris, ontop of having a more primal appearance.

[@davidesteban191]

In my headcanon super saiyan 4 is what super saiyan 3 should be, the form uses the power of the oozaru right? so as I see it, any PURE SAIYAN, or a saiyan with enough saiyan cells to be born with a tail(A.K.A Gohan), should be able to turn super saiyan 4, a saiyan who has lost their tail can't access super saiyan 4 and then access a weaker, imperfect form, which is super saiyan 3, super saiyan 4 in my head is a 500x multiplier because it's basically using the oozaru x10 multiplier on the super saiyan or vice-versa, for hybrid saiyans such as trunks and goten who weren't born with a tail and thus don't have access to the power of the oozaru, their max would be super saiyan 2, but the limit of said form is way higher than the limit for that particular form that regular saiyans have, which would explain why a full power super saiyan 2 future trunks was stronger than super saiyan 3 goku in the dbs manga, so the multiplier for the full power ss2 for hybrids would be 450x, though vegeta managed to access this form too against beerus, then hybrids would have super saiyan rage instead of super saiyan god, which in my head is slightly stronger than ssg but weaker than super saiyan blue, as for the beast form that gohan has, if we're going by xenoverse, it's the next step for those who have had their potential fully unleashed, as in the game even humans can access said form.

[@Demi_Arts]

Gotenks accessed SS3 soooo.....

[@elkanoso]

The limit of the regular ssjs is the ssjfullpower not the one broly use but a similar one wich has the multiplier of dai san dankai but without stamina and ki issues- said by toriyama Most likely implied by him

[@spyrolancer]

doesn't really make sense for a full power ssj3 to be stronger than ssj4 considering ssj4 also has a full powered state

[@furaos99]

Alternate names for the super saiyan fors would be in my opinion. Super Saiyan, Ascended Super Saiyan, Limit Breaker Super Saiyan, Primal Super Saiyan, Super Saiyan God, Divine Super Saiyan Corrupted Divine Super Saiyan, and Divine Super Saiyan Evolved

[@simeon8814]

Technically, Cumber did reach "grade 7":in the anime of heroes, we saw him using ssj3 and then a version which is more muscular, without pupils In the manga it is even more clear as Cumber went in ssj3 against Blue Goku but turned into this "grade 7" against Toppo but still he had no pupils, then later on we see that he controlled it and gained his pupils back(similar to Kale and Broly), it can be argued to be a grade 8 but possibly just a controlled grade 7, still no eyebrows, Black got his eyebrows back, so it is either grade 8 or 9 based off the interpretation of Cumber's higher ssj3 states

[@WiseUp89]

The thing that always got me about DBZ was the lore. It’s awesome and full of a lot of mystery, that, in it of itself, could be a spin off. However to the point made at 10:38, this is my biggest pet peeve with the series. The legend of Super Saiyan was a Golden Oozaru, for the entirety of their saiyan history (up to this point, not counting the God Form)… so the thing that makes no sense is how Goku and his peers went above and beyond that form in their lifetimes multiple times over and over when in the entirety of their race’s history no one else had even achieved anything beyond the Golden Oozaru form but they got the different grades between 1 & 2, then SSJ2, SSJ3, SSJ God, SSJBlue etc etc. SSJ3 was peak DBZ, they should have ended the forms there, I do, however like the primal look to SSJ4. But the absurdity that there is always a villain that is 100 times more powerful than the last also made no sense, like where were they hiding when the previous villain was the ultimate baddy? Lol I love DBZ but the more logic and more we try to make sense of it, it just doesn’t make all that much sense lol😅

[@Tactical.chocolate]

Well he did train with shenron for 100 years. I wonder what he obtain during that time?

[@Lord_Dranek]

I like how you're slowly coming around to calling SSJ4, Primal Saiyan (which it totally should be called). The way I think about it. Even when Goku does ascend past SSJ3, his current body would not be strong enough to handle that massive amount of power (as we've seen with SSJ3). This is where Primal Saiyan comes in, cause I see this as a new base form, one which is able to use the SSJ power to it's maximum potential. Primal Saiyan's new body would def handle the SSJ3 power and beyond, that's when it becomes Primal Super Saiya-jin or PSSJ (much better than saying SSGSS)

[@PenguinSage]

I do wonder if the Ozaru tranformation itself has grades. It starts out uncontrollable and dangerous, but can be tamed. There is one varient, wrathful, where a saiyan can use the power without transforming or the tail. So I imagine compared to super saiyan the "grades" would be like this. Grade 1 uncontrolled Grade 2 controlled Grade 4 can transform without the blutz waves and maintain the form Could there be an ozaru 2? Ozaru 3? Who can say.

[@thegadjet8249]

In my headcanon the SSj3 Form ist a step towards the divine ki. The SSJ3 FORM USES a lot of stamina and KI. IT is emitting a lot of KI Out of Fokus Bodys, so the Route to master this Form ist to hold your KI inside. This would lead to the discovery of divine kI and so to the SSJ God Route. So for me the next Level would be the God Transformations or mutations.

[@blankblank6214]

I wouldn't think it's off that requiring a tail to achieve ss4 because it's a natural sayain form realistically because there is a transformation locked behind it in the ozaru

[@TheShiningKidRoblox]

theres a new level? wild bruh they cant stop makin money

[@marshal8358]

Consider also the fact that Cumber using SS3 Full Power, no irises, extra buff, seems to be his last resort, even above GGA, I think that might be the prelude to something like Black's SSR full power, or the actual SS3 path to some degree. We know Black wouldn't use GGA to compare his version to normal SS3 and SS3 FP, but with Cumber it's pretty much his final form.

[@TheSCPStudio]

Are you seriously typing up a comment that uses DB HEROES as anecdotal evidence? That show is so far from canon that it’s not even funny. It’s basically fan fiction.

[@marshal8358]

@@TheSCPStudio Discussing forms doesn't make it non-canon lol. Even he brought up SSR FP, hardly any reason not to mention SS3 FP since Cumber widely uses it as a direct upgrade. The designs and forms are very official too.

[@prince_tarzan3350]

Seeing ssj3 goku with eyebrows gave me chills

[@artistanthony1007]

The natural Saiyan biology mixed with Super Saiyan definitely makes this a seperate power, not tied to the Super Saiyan & its forms we see.

[@MrAppleSalad]

I'd assume that the stage after SSj3 would basically be the same concept as Grade 4, where Goku became so efficient with his ki in the form that it basically acts as a new base level. No aura and no passive ki drain, he can sleep in it if he wants to. That'd probably be the true final evolution of the original Super Saiyan.

[@blueldrrich84]

We need an on-screen counter for every time my man says "super saiyan" 😂 Really great video, I always forget about "grade" vs arbitrary numbering. SSJ4 was the only thing that was cool in GT 😆 I really wish that'd been made canon before Super--but only that.

[@winterburden]

Super Saiyan 4 isn't just after Super Saiyan 3, it's *way after.*

[@ghosted18665]

It is totally depends on Toyotaro😂

[@3lemental_gam3r52]

I can’t wait for sparking zero to tell me memory error as an easter egg 😂

[@axemike911]

(My childhood after seeing the intro)😮😮😮😭😭😭😭😭

[@cellandbuuaremyfavoritedbz1542]

Bro Pls Make One of These Videos Of Cell Max Plsss

[@IAmJustGarbage]

Who else thinks of Sonic Adventure Chao when considering the forms of Saiyans?

[@Creon692]

SSJ4 is Golden Oozaru condensed in a half-human form like a lycanthrope. It multiplies together SSJ(x50) & Oozaru (x10) for a base amplifier of x500. Makes you fathom SSJ5 (Spirit Killer) as SSJ3 & Oozaru. x4k is an amp unseen in magnitude.

[@MLGmaster-gk9oz]

Ik in the manga all the saiyans have unique transformations to them but it would have been cool that the final step in a saiyan would be a personal ssj for them that utilizes the fullest extent of a saiyans abilities but to that users desire that way each one would be different

[@toofastnobrakes]

To me ssj4 is just oozaru layered with super saiyan. Then condensed. So in a way it’s a fusion of forms that is a very powerful combo if you use the described multipliers. The only issue I had with it conception was the color choices. I wish they had made it gold like the oozaru form needed to unlock it and the previous forms. That or all red, head hair included. Like the new limit breaker ssj4. Which could help drive home that it is something completely new

[@michaelmayers3622]

If all the ss is a mutation of the first couod u train to acces the piwer of higher forms in base or first form . Do u dont get the drawbacks of the other forms

[@crestofhonor2349]

I see SSJ4 and SSJG as alternative forms. One uses normal ki and the other uses God Ki. Both are meant to surpass the limits a Saiyan would eventually hit with normal training. They needed something additional. One required 5 pure hearted Saiyans and the other required mastery of a golden Oozaru

[@KomaValorina]

So wait are you implying that there could be a line where it's the red body super saiyan 4 with a gold hair ssj4ss in a completely new thing because that sounds sick

[@atames1]

SSJ4 is the same concept as SSJG. I thought we all knew that? Rather than just a transformation it's a totally new state of higher being.

[@JoshuaBenitezNewOrleans]

Perhaps the mutations of the golden Ozaru can be achieved and sustained only in the afterworld where the fighter has infinite stamina And perhaps this is where the elder Kia saw a “super Saiyan 4” I think your explanation is better and also this still fits within the current known limitations of the DBZ universe

[@kenpanderz]

i think Toriyama realized that the long haired form was the most extreme he could go without it looking just super (pun not intended) ridiculous, so he would either have to get really creative without getting too silly, or just go with a new form entirely. she went with the latter, and i think that was a smart move. i mean, ive seen some of those fanarts of SSJ4+ (non-GT version) and it gets.. wacky, to say the least. just a big ball of hair with a golden aura around it basically XD

[@GG_420]

Do we know for sure goku is not hiding his tail after he got revived

[@candidosilva7755]

Damn black needs to come back as a vilan again. That was amazing.

[@Durakken]

So... really, it's a question of whether you can Combine Transformations or not... I prefer to say that you can't... just like you can't really use SSJ and Kaioken together. There is something that prevents it. BUT if the idea is that Saiyans have this weird ability to mutate which are transformations, then I don't see why not. That would also then mean that SSJ and all its grades are just mutations why shouldn't we then assume that Oozaru doesn't also have this ability? And then we also have to ask if SSJG is actually a transformation as well? And is what we're seeing just another mutation combination and is Rose. If this is the case it indicates that Kai Ki is different than Saiyan God Ki and Saiyan Transformations can still mutate in response to foreign Ki... Then we also combine that with DB Heroes/Xenoverse being cannon and what we're left with is that SSJ4 is the Canon transformation of that combination of mutations, but it has not been discovered... So then... how powerful should SSJ4 be? ((Base x 10) x 50) which is better than SSJ3 bit not SSJG or Blue This also implies that Beast and LSSJ are mutations along the same lines.... Beast is just a mutated form of SSJ applied to human characteristics... So then we have to ask how best to mix and match. Is SSJ+Oozaru different from Oozaru+SSJ... possibly, but also maybe not. And can 3 Transformations combine? Or 4? Cuz Gohan should theoretically be able to Combine Oozaru, SSJ, Beast, and God if he ever gets it

[@JubeiKibagamiFez]

0:54 In the case of Goku's Golden Oozauru, it was the sunlight reflecting off a planet, rather than the moon. Something about a planet's surface that amplifies the blutz waves as opposed to a moon's surface. Goku did start out as a Reg Oozauru, but kept growing to the Golden form. Vegeta, on the other hand, I think was just a Reg Oozauru with the Blutz Wave Cannon, but had mental control and combined SSJ with Oozauru.... Which explains why Vegeta couldn't transform back to SSJ4 without the Blutz Wave Cannon... Unless the english dub of GT is just trash dialogue.

[@dansmith1661]

It's canon that making your spine tingle makes you reach Super Saiyan and it could be abused.

[@Kevin-cw8of]

Whats really interesting is that saiyans hair styles dont change from birth so their changing is when super saiyan is a cool contrast

[@XiseTK]

Makes you wonder if super saiyan 4 could have a golden form. You know like how sometimes base form fusion will fuse and already be in super saiyan forms? Maybe that is why ssj4 gogeta's hair was orangeish, almost like 1/2 way between a golden form and regular ssj4.

[@maridiancrest243]

Perhaps the next level of Golden hair form would decrease the users lifespan because it taxes the body that much. Thats the only way I see it surpassing SS4 and SSGod instead of being equal to them. As in Super using lifespan grants enourmous power as we saw with Gas and Granola.

[@andrewbittner729]

I will admit the original design for SSJ3 with the straight up spiked hair and tail looks far better than what we actually got. But SSJ Rose' 3 Full Power does seem like a 7th Grade to the Super Saiyan Forms. I suppose in a way Goku was on the right track at first during the Cell saga. But lost his way when trying for beyond SSJ2.

[@cameroncooper9831]

I don’t read Manga so I’m not sure if this is already a thing, but I would love to see a villain in Super that absorbs godly ki so they can focus on classic super sayian or introduce a form like ssj4

[@JubeiKibagamiFez]

I would say that the Golden Oozauru was actually "The SSJ of Legend" that Vegeta talks about, but I would also say SSJ4 is the true SSJ form because the transformation has a tail and is a combination of man and ape. Not every Saiyan has mental control in Oozauru form, so it possible what Vegeta has is fairly new. If Goku didn't have Pan to calm him and help him center himself, Goku's Golden Oozauru would've raged out of control destroying everything and everyone, including himself, just like the legend told by Vegeta.

[@krogymania4946]

the first time we saw super saiyan rose full power it was actually called "beyond super saiyan 3 rose" and in the manga and game goku black also has the red ligne around his eyes like super saiyan 4

[@GeteMachine]

I always saw it as just an evolution of the Oozaru + Super Saiyan. Its own divergence. Its also why you never see Goku go from SS3 into SS4 in the anime even after get gets the form. Its always from base.

[@Sylkis89]

I always thought SSJ4 shouldn't have been called that cause it's clearly a new branch. But back then we didn't have a concept to name things in another way and we cringed at all the names for in-between forms from SSJ to SSJ2 so then SSJ4 felt better to call it that way although it was a wrong thing to do. Hopefully it gets revisited in Super or whatever comes after including combinations with kaio ken, SSJB, UI and other such

[@hao2000ki]

has anyone ever told you you sound like thorin? he's a guy from counter strike who makes commentaries and used to be a caster too

[@patriku6960]

they should do back to the roots and give broly ss4 in a mini arc or few episodes

[@elmati9315]

well the closest thing we got about the next level of the golden forms can be this thing. That alredy appeared in the manga and is the Full Power super saiyan. And I know a lot of you are thinking that fullpower ssj was the 4th grade that goku used against cell. But that is not it, the controled ssj is the form goku and gohan got in the time chamber and the full power ssj is the one that Kale and Broly turn into when they lost control. It is true that as they are the legendary ssj this form is just exclusive to them and well we never saw anyone in the canon that is not Broly or Kale using it. But we are only thinking about dragon ball manga. When there is another manga that gives us exactly what we need. In the Neckomajin manga wrote by Akira Toriyama stated to be canon in the dragon ball universe, we see nekomajin (the protagonist) fight against Goku from the end of Z. But this goku had the ssj2 form and told nekomajin that it was the strongest transformation that he had and that it fused all the power from the super saiyan transformations. So the closest we have to an ultimate ssj transformation comes from nekomajin

[@Treetopgang]

What if ss4 was a level to reach god of destruction. It being as form that has controlled the pure destructive power of the monkey form. It would make sense for it to be blended with the ultra ego line of power versus the ultra instinct

[@toomberrebmoot9244]

Yeah, SSJ4 never came across as a direct sequel to SSJ3. It always seemed like-...well, it literally IS a synthesis of Super Saiyan and Ozaroo rather than just a direct power up from SSJ3. I feel like SSJ4 was a name that Elder Kai (the writers) pulled out of their ass when looking at the final design and said "Yes, this is obviously the next level, no extra nuance. (even though Vegeta can just skip SSJ3 to get to 4 using the Blutz Wave Machine)".

[@freemygrandma956]

Ssj4 is probably the original ssj from legend since most saiyans back then had tails

[@D-Pooly]

I don't know about Super Goku being able to handle ssj3, I kinda assumed he was able to maintain it against Beerus because 1) the fight was short and 2) he was in king Kai's world, though I guess we never got confirmation if simply being there changes anything about the transformations I do remember he went ssj3 once in thw tournament of power and went back immediately because he couldn't handle it, but after he could go ssg or blue no problem

[@blackpow3r]

It has been explained several times that the SSJ transformations expel KI. Ssj2 did it and Ssj3 being excessive. It's basically amping up SSJ like Kaioken does. SSG has near flawless KI control with SSB using SSJ amps while maintaining it better with the God Ki. Goku can in theory go SSB3.

[@toofastnobrakes]

I know it’s not canonically how they have described it. But I feel like the beast gohan form should be the true successor form to super saiyan as a whole. Like you said Ssj2 and 3 are arguably still just grade trasformation like ssj1 grade 1-4. Ssj2 was even originally called super saiyan grade 5. But the beast form with the white hair and red eyes feels like it could be the true evolution beyond. Mega saiyan? Ultra saiyan? Who knows

[@gywii]

All true. However 😆 there are a lot of clues that indicate that SS3 has ties to the great ape form. Perhaps, trying to get that higher level of power, Goku channeled his ape power into a SSJ mutation that would support it and in turn would allow him to find a higher SSJ grade. We see the forms add power over speed, we've seen them be calm and serene or angry and explosive. I think, it's not too far fetched to think it might be a mutation that closes-in on an SSJ4 style transformation. Whether or not there could be another mutation in the SSJ lineage of forms is still up in the air, but to me, it seems to be implied that the forms hit a wall at that stage.

[@nocultist7050]

I don't even consider SSJ3 a transformation it's like Vegeta got super buffed as SSJ1 but it was making him slower, so SSJ3 is pretty much the same but with KI. It's more like kaioken in that manner. Where kaioken drains health and damages physical body while SSJ3 drains KI.

[@withhardER]

Spot on !!!

[@mikehalo6786]

Thats why i want to call it great sayian. Its legit great ape so i think that would make sense