SaltEMike Reacts to Star Citizen Dev Responds to Master Modes Hate

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[@eavdmeer]

Voicing any kind of criticism of master modes immediately gets met with terms like 'hate' and accusations of resisting change just for resisting. I had my worries about master modes. Then I was finally able to test it in EPTU. I didn't see any point in Arena Commander. I want to see it in the real 'verse. Oh boy. It was so much worse than I ever expected. I can't see myself doing any kind of space combat until they iterate on it or get rid of it. The only thing that kind of works is using your spaceship to fly somewhere to do a mission. Someone said that MM is for people who hate flying. I now understand why they said that. In a fight, you just can't do anything. You're so slow that you just sit there getting shot and you have to out-dps the other guy or you die. Completely uninteresting game play

[@micahisham]

@@the_babbleboomthat’s a dumbass take. Rocket league is very simple, but has more depth than 99% of other games.

[@Weirdletter]

@@micahisham rocket league is not simple. While the objective of the game is, mechanically, rocket league is ridiculously hard to master. That’s why it has depth cause is not simple

[@iroquoisplissken3583]

Rocket league has depth bc of the skill ceiling…that’s something SC has going for it in spades, but MM dilutes that

[@eavdmeer]

@@the_babbleboom one might say that MM makes the game more complex to play than ever 😂 Just not in the fun way. Button Citizen anyone? But yeah, even the noobs don't lawn dart into the first outpost they try to land at anymore. MM is the very best space break ever. I now just fly straight at the landing bay at 1200 m/s and drop the old MM anchor just before crashing into it

[@allthatishere]

Criticism *IS* considered hate. This is one of the first things you learn in a debate course, dude.

[@epiclittleman90]

I felt the power triangle was a unique gameplay aspect and CIG should focus on it. Power allocation is a gameplay loop many sci-fi games hone to the core of their game. Master Modes sought to make combat closer and visually appealing. One simple idea that would (hopefully) satisfy both old and new pilots is how we adjust power into thrusters/boost. The more power you feed your thrusters, the faster your ship will travel, like adjusting the speed governor in an automobile. The balance of this is less power into the other points on the Delta (Weapons & Shields) which is already coded into it. A simple change that would drastically change the way we want to fly our ships and would let us have full control of how we want to perform in a fight. Focusing in any attributes that would benefit the type of ship you fly that excel in Agility, Firepower, or Resilience should be considered by the player/pilot and balanced with proper data from play tests. Having full power into thrusters would obviously let you achieve the maximum speed/acceleration. However they are onto something when switching to NAV mode for quantum travel/boost, it should always have its disadvantages along with balanced benefits.

[@Gazbeard]

To be honest, the power triangle was a port from Elite Dangerous - that said I still enjoyed and appreciated using it. Oh, and Starfield has a similar system, but with more than three factor points it's not a triangle, more like an Octagon.

[@epiclittleman90]

@@Gazbeard Yeah, it's a pretty simple system, but it would solve the dislike of the swap mechanic from SCM to NAV mode.

[@Gazbeard]

@@epiclittleman90 agreed. I sometimes feel like CR is acutely paranoid of lawsuits for IP infringement and has to reinvent the wheel on everything before he'll be happy.

[@raven9ine]

4:20 My, and many others, biggest issue is, that with MM the authentic space flight experience is completely ruined, wether they know exactly why MM makes it that way, or not. And that issue is actually, because many feel it's wrong, but can't pinpoint why, so the issue is cloudy. Me personally I'm looking at my fleet almost on a daily basis, deciding what I will sell first. It's sad, but I don't see no point in 'owning' spaceships that absolutely don't fly like spaceships anymore. That's one thing in a game that cost me $40 to play, but a whole different story in a game where I spent real $ on spaceships. And why would I not just play any other game, that isn't about space, if I didn't wanted spaceships to fly at least somewhat authentic. And there is the promises CR made for the flight model, and how MM breaks them. If MM fails to deliver an authentic space flight experience, which it likely will, becaise it fails at a fundamental level, I was sold a huge lie. At this point, why don't we just get actual fast travel like in Starfield, if flight doesn't matter?

[@wannahit9357]

I've made several posts on spectrum on my dislikes of master modes and how it should be improved. I'm personally OK with a master modes that is a switch between combat and navigation. But I don't think we should be restricted in our speeds. I think master mode should only kill your guns and Shields. The fact that they are restricting our speeds to 200 or less SEM which is only about 400 miles an hour in space, is just pure arcade! We're basically being forced to dogfight in space, slower then our most modern fighters dogfight in Earth's atmosphere. A delta flight to New York is faster than 200 SCM... just for a little perspective..

[@Immortal-Dude]

Is the Delta airplane strafing around in Earth's atmosphere with VTOL engines or is it going in a straight line?

[@user-co8vc5nd7l]

I don’t think the post is being brigaded. The flight model was not 100% before but when its wholesale being changed the topic is becoming a lightning rod for people who have started to see it in the e/ptu in later waves. I’m not saying all negative feedback is from those people but as more people see it more feedback comes, as cig rightly want. Regular people who don’t sweat in AC who just get around the game and enjoy flying. These people make up a sizeable chunk it seems. My main issue with master modes is it feels unnatural and not fun. I just wish cig iterated on their previous model incrementally over time. This is coming from someone who didn’t know what a tricord was until MM and still doesn’t use it, someone who at the start of their flying career in game was jousting like crazy until I put effort into getting better. Once I had control of my ship I absolutely fell in love with the game. Flight in space and in atmo are the absolute top tier things I logged on to learn more about. Knowing where my G limit is, learning about decoupling, omg it was the day I bought sticks and just thought wow this game is crazy. In the eptu I don’t even bother to use sticks now because I don’t feel connected to the environment or the game anymore. I never post on spectrum but they have asked for feedback so I made my first post and upvoted the posts that resonated with me. The only thing, evidently that got me to move was the change to the flight model in the space game I wanted to be fun. I like the UI elements they implemented, I like basically everything else in the patch and was very much looking forward to it. It started to feel like a game it started to feel fluid it seemed like the tedious elements were going away I was so happy. Then I got in the ship and right away I was limited to 30ms till gear up, nav felt like I was in atmo, sccm stopped me basically dead in my tracks as if by magic and completely broke immersion. It felt so janky and bad that legitimately thought I had broken something in my stick settings. When I spend 80% of my time flying this change has had an out sized impact on how I enjoy the game. Sure that could be just my individual personal experience, other people might love it and I respect that. But it’s not the flight model for me. Again this is just one guys opinion but they asked for feedback so I gave it. I encourage people who love the new mode to post their feedback as well it doesn’t take long and I hope together we can arrive at a game we can all get joy from for many years. For me personally tho I’ll be playing something else until there’s more freedom and depth. Fly safe y’all

[@grygaming5519]

The issue was the old model favored light fighters over heavy. When the light can out-turn and out dsp a heavy fighter you have a massive issue. So CIG was placed with two options. 1) Nerf light fighters by halving their HP pools. 2) Buff Heavy fighters to compete with the light fighters. Then you have the other issue coming from this....every ship has no clear role as long as every ship can do better the higher you go. If a light fighter can do A, and in the same old model a heavy fighter can just do it better it blanks out light and medium fighters. In MM mode The light fighters become more aligned to their role, the medium fighters become the in-between/actual strike fighter and heavy fighters become the apex predators.

[@erlinghaaland8046]

No one is reading all of this

[@nanogeekpro2]

I read it, just sayin'.

[@Traumglanz]

@@grygaming5519 Ironically the new model now favors interceptors, so even lighter ships than light fighters. So, what did we gained in that regard? Not much, but that's fine. ;-)

[@supperEisMan]

100% feel the same way, especially about the non believable the physics that causes the break in immersion. Realizing that this is a fundamental problem that no amount of tweaking and balancing can fix I am literally afraid that the most enjoyable gaming experience (just flying around fast in SC) was just permanently deleted and SC will never feel authentic to me again.

[@jeffroLife]

Ill be honest, I really hate Master Modes and I am a Bunker guy

[@daren5393]

For bunkers I like how I can get within like 2 kilometers at top speed then switch to SCM for a turbo brake, makes the approach faster. That's actually a nice quality of life thing for lots of activities

[@rileyb.7129]

As a non combat oriented, normally just cargo hauling, I was alright with avoiding players...now its difficult as hell...However, as someone who is horrible at combat it makes it easier for me to do ship combat and pick on non-combat ships.

[@arnoldnym2466]

Which is not how it should be. Make it easier to avoid getting ganked by a single player? Yes please. However you should not be able to fight a PvPer and win, ever. Sorry if that hurts feelings but it's the only way people of both camps will be happy in the long run. Haulers/Miners can avoid the gank unless it is well organized piracy and PvPers won't lose their mind because they shoot peas.

[@dspartridge84]

The problem with master modes is foundational, they are trying to put a single player combat style into an open PVP game. It'd be if tarkov tried to bring players closer together for combat because it didn't look cinematic enough. The community would freak out and rightly so as it would remove a whole section of the game. My problem with master modes isn't to do with PVP or combat skill it's the binary logic they've used in the escape mechanics that they now want to have players trapped in combat to give more satisfaction to a player seeking combat in the misguided belief that number of player "interaction" events need to go up to make the good. To use the Tarkov analogy again it would be the same as bringing a device with you that locked a cage around you and another player in an area so the other player couldn't try to escape or sneak away, again a massive removal of player initiative and skill and a section of gameplay. It's wrong at it's core and the reaction from the community is correct.

[@Traumglanz]

What are you talking about? Combat is now further away that it used to be. ;-)

[@skatman3278]

MM Is absolute dog toffee. I don't care what anyone says - MM has dumbed down the flight model to such a point that it's basically pointless. It's dross. It's boring. The only people I know that are actually enjoying it are those that put zero effort into learning the previous model. Obviously I don't know everyone and there are some people that genuinely like it and were excellent pilots. But it's just my experience from people I play with. Basically, they've thrown the baby out with the bathwater and then gone "Hold up guys, we can tune it to make it better". But they didn't even bother trying to tune the other model. MM can be "OK". But it'll only ever be "OK". The old model was already "OK", but could have been tuned to have been excellent. But they didn't even try. I don't no know why.

[@rekrn12345]

The previous model was fundamentally flawed at the core.

[@jakejewkes6688]

They just refuse to admit they’re trying to force a single player flight model into a massive multiplayer game

[@Soccerrockker6]

What makes a flight model single-player versus multiplayer?

[@_Anaklysmos_]

@@Soccerrockker6 the fact your speed has to be controlled in order for you to be at the right place at the right time for the level design to work. IMO that's the sole reason why MM even exist

[@Brandon-bd8fk]

That’s.. not true though.

[@_Anaklysmos_]

@@Brandon-bd8fk just a theory. In the end it doesn‘t matter what the main reason for MM was. The important thing is that it didn‘t solve anything and feels awful

[@zeektm1762]

@@_Anaklysmos_One of the main reasons was to prevent jousting. Small ships fighting each other would just turn into zoom fests where they hit, go far away, turn around, repeat just like medieval jousting.

[@Schooterl]

I want fewer restrictions and more control of my systems on my ship. Im going to miss balancing my power between weapons and shields along with not being able to crash the way i want too with my landing gear out.

[@mikalemadden1762]

Why can you no longer do those two things?

[@Schooterl]

@mikalemadden1762 I worded that poorly, was trying to complain about navigation mode not having shields, and speeds being reduced in combat mode. I want to control those things to the max capability of my system no matter what mode I'm in.

[@mikalemadden1762]

@@Schooterl Ah, okay I see what you're saying

[@Schooterl]

@mikalemadden1762 That being said, I need to spend some time properly playing 3.23. Maybe I'll like it more, who knows.

[@mayoluck]

​@@Schooterl you wont like it, but your bank account wants you to love it.. i know this feeling.

[@Hawkeye6941]

Haven't had a lot of time in MM, and not a combat player. But i did a few rounds of PvP with a few friends and its just point at the enemy and have more DPS weapons. Flight is kinda secondary.

[@grygaming5519]

You never played games like Mechwarrior? MM to me is similar to Battletech/Mechwarrior. You have to balance armor, dps and speed in order to do things properly in that game. If you run with all armor and speed with one heavy hitting weapon, chip damage will just kill you outright because your opponent will out DPS you with more medium hitting weapons with moderate armor and speed.

[@Hawkeye6941]

@@grygaming5519 My only issue with that is where does flight skill get involved. For example, in the current flight model if I'm in a lesser ship(like a aurora)I know my chances of winning are slim, but if I'm good I may have a shot. I think like in war-thunder you could have a bad plane but if you manage your energy and get lucky you can win. In SC you already can't get energy in space and now with hard locks on speed I feel you are dead period.

[@iroquoisplissken3583]

Even a khartual can barely push in on a heavy fighter, and that’s not even accounting for 2x the guns and shields…I think it’s safe to say MM has a bit of an issue

[@MichaelDBruce]

I wish we could have had this level of Dev engagement throughout salvage's evolution

[@MadM0nte]

It's not idiot to ask. "What do you guys expect combat to look like?" They're constantly talking about what they think it should look or play like and if they have a vision for that then they should at least at a rudimentary level be able to articulate that. But they can't because they don't know what they're doing.

[@MrChaosi]

they are basicly putting a ww2 dogfight intro s space sim game... its just not gonna work,

[@yulfine1688]

that's been the idea for years, the idea of star wars like battles etc, and yeah it may not work because its an overly complex amount of systems and balancing and so many things

[@TairnKA]

It's not just MM, but the expansion of functions that I need key binding to and now the additional multi-functions of my mouse buttons, even with the 40 buttons (duel T16KMs), including two hats and two triggers, plus two sliders, it's nearly overload knowing what does what and when it's needed? ;-)

[@Fragnatix]

its suppose to be a space sim considering first speech of CR in 2012, so technically, you need keyboard mouse and some other inputs.

[@Sphendrana]

I literally stopped bothering to bind all the keys to my T16's. I don't even use 1/4 of the buttons on my sticks. I just fly. Sometimes I shoot. Mostly a turret gunner and that is better with M+KB anyways. I am rarely engaged in ship combat as the pilot. I don't have an experience with MM and don't want to. I dread updating to 3.23 just to log back out after not having fun in my Banu D. It's literally the whole reason I play, just to fly my pretty lil space crab around.

[@VincenzoThePinguinos]

What I don't understand is why they developped a completely new flight model in their corner instead of incrementally improving the one we already got. This seem like they wasted a freaking ton of time and took a huge risk while not having much to show for it. We are basially where we were before. The only thing is that we finally have weapon variation, but this could have been just as easily added in the old model, there is nothing preventing that. This all seem like a lot of effort to barely move forward if at all. I'm sure it'll get better, but I was hoping for something better than we aalready got after all this time, and it's clearly not the case.

[@operator9858]

Yogi is no john prichett is he? They need to bring him back...

[@CrypticCarbon]

"What I don't understand is why they developed a completely new flight model in their corner instead of incrementally improving the one we already got": I believe Yogi addressed this in his interview with avenger one. The current flight model has a fundamental flaw that can not be fixed. Yogi said internally they tried for years to sort it out, and nothing ever remotely worked. The main problem with the current model is that players will always sacrifice every thing else for speed. This makes it impossible to properly tune and balance ships outside of light fighters/interceptors and racing ships. Which is ultimately not good for a game where all different classes of combat and non combat ships have to be balanced against each other with different subsystems and utility systems. MM fixes this by have a fixed cost that they can balance when sacrificing things for speed by the cost of switching between NAV mode and SCM mode. It also has a knock on effect of allowing them to divide modes and systems, this is useful for multi crew and other things. The main current issue with MM is that its flight tuning is garbage because it sacrificed combat and flight geometry for no real gain in deal with issues like jousting and swarm tactics. It makes it more about aim and dps rather than flight control. However, if you look at their flight speed targets in general, these problems should be fixable, as these issues are fixed in other games with similar flight speed targets. So it is ultimately a tuning issue. The main concerns are unclear of what their end ideal goal is, if it aligns with what different groups of players actually want, and how many years it will take them to get there. A big concern with the PVPers and Racers is that its so dumb down for accessibility and cinematic close quarters fighting that it removes the tactical fun of the game. The non combat fighters are worried they are too focused on combat. And then there is the division between solo players vs group/multi-crew players. All of these different groups have concerns about how CIG is going to address the concerns of each their own group. With the track record of bad communication on the vision of the game, these switch ups, and all theses years have having cycled through other systems that ultimately failed, people are getting impatient and are questioning CIGs ability to actually get through this in a reasonable about of time in a way that makes most people mostly happy.

[@user-co8vc5nd7l]

@@CrypticCarbon you make really good points. The one thing I’d say is I’m unsatisfied with yogis stance that the previous model was unfixable. If people are jousting (I was very bad for this early on) then it’s kind of a skill issue. The game could signal to the player this behaviour is suboptimal by reducing the manoeuvrability at very high speed, or blacking out earlier when trying to bank really hard after a pass. I spent some time learning from other players about speed control and when it finally clicked I felt such a sense of achievement. If cig don’t like trichording then I’d argue specifically targeting that behaviour by blowing a cooler or fuse (ie: engineering) if they deem it excessive. And back strafing which is mentioned often. It feels like a good opportunity to punish those play styles by reducing dps, fire rate, increasing cone angle etc. What master modes feels like is an elaborate blanket approach to underlying engine limitations under the guise of something hopefully more palatable. Personally if it is an engine issue then just say that. Slow everything down add specific punishments until we are at a place the network code is happy, see who’s left of the player base and reassess. All I see when going from live to PU is that flying feels worse for me. Everything else feels way better but flight now feels boring and tedious. Just my opinion, if others like it then more power to y’all

[@raven9ine]

Exactly how I feel about MM. The preMM model was the same for years, no iterations, no bakancing. And I believe that weapon changes we finally get now could have silved many of the issues without an entire new approach.

[@ArythemB]

​​@@CrypticCarbon tried for years to fix? Just make the triangle absolute. You need certain amount of power to the engine to warp, while some is in shield and no in weapons aka no functional weapons or shield to make a jump. Light fighters would need less power to engine to go faster to use on others. Big ships have greater capacitor, but need more energy to move because of mass. All the logics are there if using reality. They can just delete master junk as it's not good or needed

[@sergeyzipunov5913]

The main problem is where do you draw a line between space sim and arcade.If it's a sim,than first think people would do(most likely) is find a spaceship mechanic capable of taking any restricting hardware right off their ships,sort of "in real life". Actually,if u think about it,this game can't be called a space sim because there is no space simulation at all,Stanton system ain't even spinning(Planets just sit on a same places.

[@yomancs]

Really wish they leaned more into a simulator, I would love to learn a ships systems like I do in msfs or dcs,

[@fwdcnorac8574]

Even with the speed nerf that master modes bring to fighters, those same fighters can still dictate the fights with impunity when facing multi-crew ships. Multicrew larger ships still have no chance against a fighter.

[@Sattorin]

I'm really surprised Yogi didn't address this. They desparately need to tie weapon projectile velocity and range to ship size (or ship powerplant size) so that Hammerheads aren't getting sniped from pixel-sized fighters plinking them from 3km away.

[@fwdcnorac8574]

@@Sattorin I made, more or less, the same comment on another video, and five people jumped on me for not knowing what I'm talking about. They said fighters always lose to multicrew ships, and it's borderline not fair how OP multicrew ships are. F'ing clowns...

[@raven9ine]

9:13 I felt like a God doing NPC bounties in EPTU, but I hated it. Yeah that was a bit exaggerated, I have no idea how it feels to be like a God. But its seemed very easy, just for all the wrong reasons. It didn't feel like space combat, and it wasn't satisfiing at all. I didn't feel I achieved anything and didn't feel like flight skill was asked for. I'm by no means an ace combat pilot, and in 3.22 I find combat engaging, like my flight skill matters and I can improve. I didn't have that feeling in MM.

[@JohnSrptn117]

I feel like Star Citizen is suffering a lot from what many big scope games suffer from: you cannot please everyone. Yes, the new flight model helps new players get into the game, but it's also causing anyone remotely interested in combat to reach a skill ceiling very quickly. In the long term, this could kill PvP for small ships (fighters/singles/dualseaters) rapidly. So it's a "patch" that may work in the short term and probably encourages players who never engaged in combat to try it out. However, it might also harm the game in the long term. When the flight model doesn't allow much room for skill influence, improving as a pilot and understanding your ship becomes pointless. I hope they can find a sweet spot between needing to be a sweaty Arena Commander hardcore player just to have a chance in a fight and turning the game into a point-and-click adventure where numbers, ships, and weapons are the only decisive factors, disregarding player skill. If you used to be good, well, forget about enjoying our game. Both sides need to be listened to, but finding the solution won't be easy. I can tell you that much.

[@cwarky7325]

Yeah you cant please everyone. The problem here is that CIG promoted a newtonian flight based dialled back for fun bdsse amd milked the supporters of that vision for years. Now they have their eyes on the money of players that that original vision doesn't appeal to due to accessibility, and entry skill. Now they are pushing arcade rubbish to garner those new accounts and simplified player base at the expense of original backers wishes... Because they already got there money. Greed is the major design constraint in play here.

[@Traumglanz]

Not really, interceptors reign supreme in a lot of pvp scenarios and so does now as new element group size as it is become super easy to gang and merge on targets with nav mode being an effective tool to drop straight into weapon range of a target. And the skill ceiling is still there in a lot of ways, but it's now focused on aiming and choosing the correct range and less about clever flying. And I really do like flying, I really loved getting behind a target and doing a close range chase, but that was really hard to do. Now it seems to be even harder if not impossible and instead you have other elements from the old model still working, but it mostly face to face combat.

[@matt5781]

I really don't think the Master Modes thread is being brigaded. The flight model impacts all aspects of the game, if any change was going to see a lot of feedback and engagement then this was it. I expect there really are 800+ unique players who came out of the woodwork to express their concerns on this one. I appreciate that this is the highest number of votes that we have seen on spectrum in half a decade but I don't think we should be surprised given the importance of the feature.

[@StefanBacon]

I just hope we still get some shields in navigation mode

[@Tekjive]

This! Doesn’t make sense to explore unprotected, they are pigeontoeing way too much, making up so many different modes to switch through when sometimes you literally have 1 second for a do or die situation. Time will tell

[@valdurion6779]

I remember posing about this game's FM/combat in 2014 on the old forum. 10 years past, I come back and see nothing has changed and flight devs still have no idea what is going on.

[@PedroC-hk6po]

Why cant they just have a real flight sim approach????

[@Jackalhit]

Because they’re catering to the lowest common denominator. People who took Chris Roberts LITERALLY on the WWII propeller planes in space, rather than understanding he meant he wanted the flight crew and squadron interactions to be reminiscent of the books he read when he was younger. CIG forgot the user base wanted Battlestar type of movement rather than airplanes, and caved to the airplane crowd. Go back about 11-12 years, there’s either a 10ftc (10 for the chairman) or a different update where Chris says offhandedly that he enjoyed the camaraderie and squad interpersonal interactions from WWII book, not literally “Slow Ass Planes in Space.”

[@vorpalrobot]

​@@Jackalhitgo watch the original trailers for Star Citizen. The CGI mockup shows fighters battling at like 100m/s.

[@Jackalhit]

@@vorpalrobot That was a limitation of the engine, and a quick animation, not their intention for a final product. They also later admitted it looked really bad and slow, and have joked about it randomly over the years, saying how bad it was.

[@Tekjive]

Thx for the unbiased approach, this is why I watch your SC content first 🤙🏻 It’s encouraging to see CIG is not done tuning MM, cuz as it seems, and from what I’ve played, it’s clunky, but I do need to play it in actual Live for myself other then Arena, but from what I’m seeing there’s a lot that either doesn’t make sense, needs a complete rework, etc. still need more to form my opinion, but ya, all a process, here’s to hoping they get it right sooner vs later 🤞🏻

[@Citizen-Nurseman]

This was a fantastic post by Yogi 100% honestly, no smoke being blown up anyone's ass So many peopla are just getting themselves emotionally overactive over MMs Yogi knows it's not perfect, and at the end of the day, time to throw it into teh wild and get data with high ecological validity This kind of communication is perfect. The Upvotes are 100% real imo. The silent people on spectrum who don't shout and scream and stamp their feet, are out there any listening.

[@aka-47k]

funny part is that he didnt mention non combat ships with any word only said that LF are too weak lol

[@Citizen-Nurseman]

@@aka-47k because if you play MMs you already know non-combat ships aren't having a problem right now

[@Citizen-Nurseman]

@@the_babbleboom i call em out when they do dumb things I praise them when they do good things

[@jamesgale9722]

100% agree. People getting all worked up when they have to chuck something into the pot and see how it works. Great post by Yogi

[@RequiemUnkown]

You could fill an Olympic swimming pool with the tears from pvp'ers right now 🤣🤣. Bunch of emotional crybabies.

[@L-vs7fp]

MM PvP is lackluster and boring. Just feels milquetoast at best. "Modes" was the dumbest change they decided on. Flight and combat now just feel arcady. Hate it.

[@bystander85]

Can anyone explain to me why they added MM in the first place? Because people don't know how to use velocity limiter or use proper amount of thrust? (I'm new player as of 3.23)

[@Kerman_von_Braun]

Its nice to see the devs point out all the things they would like to improve, but for me, ship flight/combat was the main reason why i played SC, and with current MM implementation, i have absolutely no desire to play the game. Guess ill check back in in a couple of years to see if this hot mess has been fixed, if I still remeber SC existing.

[@ManDark_o7]

Totally agree with you and in last 6 months I added a C2 and a F7C to my fleet and I am so pissed now MM broke the game for me 😭

[@123TheCloop]

@@ManDark_o7 you only added the C2/F7C because they are "meta" and best in there class against anything else. you just proved why MM needs to exist........

[@SensationalShulk]

Ok see ya. This isn't an airline you don't have to announce your departure

[@vorpalrobot]

Have you actually tried it?!

[@MrSirFluffy]

​​@@vorpalrobot No. Most of them haven't. Seems the people who hated the change were the ones who enjoyed being dominant over casual players. The legacy system sucked. Combat was always just two people flying towards each other shooting, like lancing.

[@queze009]

I appreciate your prospective! I hope more creators think this way.

[@cyberchrist6808]

I feel like master modes didnt change much, im kindof neutral on it, i dont do ship combat much; however the little bit I did get into felt notably more dangerous, in the way that games devs making souls like need me to dodge badguys, while CIG seems to demand i pay more attention to my turbo boost for manuevering out of danger. What i want to know is what exactly everyone hates about master modes? if i had to pick it makes combat feel slow... well because it literally is slower, so i guess its suppose to be that way? maybe the slowness is compounded by the fact that it seems to take ages to kill other ships rn or i should just get gud at dogfights

[@AlmightyChastor]

Crazy how many developers are in the comments talking about how to improve MM

[@rybuds47]

Its a lot. Hope they can sort it to something we enjoi.

[@Flyright07]

Trying hard to get along with master modes but I shouldn't have to "try and get along with" the primary features of this game. That tells me it's getting in the way. Example: I use a hotas with pedals, and come from a flight sim background - mostly WW2 sims. I can't even bind a regular throttle axis in SC anymore without a headache. Just look at the throttle-related control bind options and you will find a perfect template for how things are being overcomplicated.

[@Sphendrana]

worse if you frequently travel and have to disconnect your sticks only to be forced to rebind/invert them before you play the game the very next time you log in. Every time I plug my sticks in, Forward is Reverse and Down is Up.

[@mayoluck]

I know within seconds a turd taste like shit, it doesn't take long to hop in a car and tell it handles like shit. You dont need hundreds of hrs in MM to get your taste/feel, whatever it maybe.

[@Frazer.McLaren]

Yeah. But this isn't a system being made for you and your tastes exclusively. To get back to your analogy good luck fitting the wife and three kids in your Aventador...

[@ThaFiggyPudding]

I stopped playing because of Master Modes (flight model changes specifically). Just isn't for me. Took the fun out of flying for me. Good times for people who really like it, I guess. With how many times they've changed the flight model now, 12 years in, it just feels discouraging.

[@user-co8vc5nd7l]

@@Frazer.McLaren then make ships that handle like a minivan for all the people who want something easy. The existing flight model allowed for variation the existing model just needed vehicles that addressed those market segments you mention in your analogy. The existing model has the power triangle mini-game that can change the behaviour on the fly it just needed more iteration. If they really didn’t like trichording then punish players who did that specific thing, like you blow a cooler or some other engineering problem is more likely to happen. If they didn’t like jousting increases the Gforce effects to signal to pilots they shouldn’t be trying to bank so hard for so long. Or reduce the authority of manoeuvring thrusters at high speeds. If they hate back strafing then reduce the DPS of ships while back strafing, pair this with reduced manoeuvring thruster authority and back strafers would be sitting ducks. If they hate not seeing the ships close up and feel like cinematic is more fun then reduce the effective range of guns to get people closer Target specific behaviour with specific trade offs instead of trying to shoehorn racing, cargo, industrial, exploration and combat into a new mode with more global restrictions.

[@Frazer.McLaren]

@@user-co8vc5nd7l For clarity, i'm not a fan of the current tuning and love the current flight model, but I do accept they needed to change the model as a whole. What you have written are potentially solutions, but the bigger picture is the game needs to be approachable. You need to be able to get 80% in the first few hours and 20% over the next ten years. Failure to do so will cause the game to fail due to lack of adoption. This is especially important when you're expecting an influx of brand new players to mix and mingle with 10 year veterans. The current system does not allow that. It is already complicated, before adding even more layers or complexity to tune fringe techniques as you have suggested. Simple, overarching rules which are quick to understand and get a decent level of proficiency with is what this game will live or die on.

[@SultanDesync]

​@@ThaFiggyPudding Sad but true. They were never going to make a billion dollar game for the few thousand of us who loved the old flight model though. I don't know what this new direction will turn out like, but for we few, the good times are over and it's not coming back. :(

[@0xc1d34]

My Feedback is big ships like Corsair still turn as sharp as a f8

[@zman_o7]

Here is what I think will take place based on past years of experiencing CIG. 3.23 and Invictus will be a TOTAL CLUSTER and I predict 3.23 and it's variants will not not be playable, enjoyable or bug free enough to even attempt to invite friends to try it right up to the time CIG takes it's annual Christmas break. Prove me wrong CIG! o7 😎👍

[@wc4260]

Wild that people think MM isnt actual dogshit. Yay interceptor meta. Rip multi crew ships.

[@metacube9913]

It's great, cope

[@ONEYEDKINGKNOX]

With MM the lower speeds are terrible it’s almost impossible to out maneuver your opponents and if you’re fighting more than one enemy it’s game over for you. And me as a solo player who primarily does bounties it’s not fun being unable to out maneuver ai

[@mattb8754]

Master modes is complete garbage and im glad plenty other people see that. It's turning space combat into Galaga with better graphics.

[@musicuser9967]

I have not tried master modes yet, but i want to just say that “balancing” when it comes to ships should even be a thing. If they are going for realism, balancing is out of the question. Why would a sports car company “balance” their cars to be worse so that pickup trucks can compete? They can balance with rarity and price, not by making good things worse and bad things better.

[@01SHADOW]

So far only see two things that would need to be touched on that I am going to make a spectrum post about later. For one I don't know why no one's talking about the ship UI where if you're in battle it's so many red arrows on your screen that you can't track your target properly which I'm sure is a minor tweak. But for ships being able to dodge a maneuver happens to be the biggest issue I see. Like if you go into pirates warm it's almost impossible to evade any shots from NPCs. So I was wondering could they possibly implement a afterburner feature into the game well back into the game because after berner used to be a thing. But a afterburner where you click the boost button twice and it does a hard acceleration that takes maybe 50% of your boost to perform to at least give you some type of acceleration to dodge and disengage. Something like a elite dangerous afterburner basically. I'll try to post it on spectrum hopefully it doesn't get downvoted into the pits of hell 😂😂😂

[@nanogeekpro2]

I tried it in pve, in arena commander, I was literally disgusted.

[@Jeremy_Walker]

You can't sell a Newtonian physics game then go with this shit. MM feels like FPS almost. F*ck combat. Make flying fun then worry about that shit. They nailed it with the 2.6 flight way back.

[@bhz8499]

Yarp.

[@WisKy64VT]

On a fundamental level MM is flawed it’s to arcady for a space sim.

[@its5oclockcharlie]

Do the developers who created master modes actually play SC??

[@IrisCorven]

I'm torn on master modes and the combat changes. I like that my ships that should feel maneuverable feel maneuverable. I like that when I'm close to a physical object, there is still a sense of speed. I don't like the Elite Dangerous-esque changes to the ways weapons do damage, the damage falloff/accuracy on ships like the Ares Inferno. I don't like NAV being coupled to QT, causing an EM spike and an utter death of what little stealth mechanic we currently have in game. But that's my opinion. I fully appreciate that people don't like it, and I fully appreciate folks that do like it. But this community is legit filled with SO MANY toxic players that think everything needs to cater to them specifically. PVP'ers that think they should have piracy supremacy handed to them on a silver platter, industrial players who think they should be absolutely invincible/uncatchable. It's just a lot of people who want their toy, and don't want anyone to touch it, and don't care about how it affects the rest of the players as a whole.

[@maciekhirsz6807]

Kinda sceptic to all this master modes, it kills some immersion imo. Would defo like to get a linear speed to shields ratio relation.

[@casstle178]

I died to an ai cutty as an ares. This wouldn’t have happened before, ever. I’m not used to mm at all so probably on me, but it felt so bad to me that I alt-f4

[@ArythemB]

I play medical and hauler and i hate the fake flight master mode. Whats the point of the power triangle now. Also i like that the pvp ship are actually hard to fight. I support realistic games.

[@redensign24]

I remember when they first talked about it, they said 'we don't want people to be able to disengage from combat'. at the same time they silently buffed the speed on all the QED and quantum snare ships to be faster than my fast ships. my response, as someone who avoids combat by running, was 'fuck you, fuck your game, I'm cashing out, goodbye'. and I sold off everything. having tried master mode now, it's not horrible I guess, but... I don't see any point to it. NOTHING is better. so yeah I'm not buying back in, yet. try again guys.

[@Karackal]

In this post, Yogi basically says we should play as we want to and that the way we were playing with the old flight model was wrong. What is it?

[@SONYUSR]

PVP community has had a lot of these same complaints since day 1 of MM testing. nearly a year of testing later (and although MM has had changes in that time they havent been fundamental or game changing outside bug fixes and tweaks) Yogi is finally acknowledging those issues. there is a core and unsolvable problem that MM has introduced, making fights incredibly boring and even more aim-centric than previous Flight Models. The only problem that MM solved was fights ending and group battles being a lot more grounded/engaging. but both of these ONLY come from the speed changes. Every other change to the Flight model has introduced so many many more problems than I have time to explain. there have been some solid feedback channels we have been testing and showing CIG the math and the science behind Good and Bad design decisions. Im hopeful Yogi will follow through with making MM a fun FM, rather than a simple DPS point and click adventure...

[@bomberboyz1308]

i like MM biggest issue I have rn is ships are a lot tankier now but I just have to seriously focus on upgrading my shio now instead of just staying stock

[@nosir5596]

Maybe it would be pointless to make a video about what they intend, but they absolutely need to communicate what they've done and what the intentions are. There's no excuse for pushing this without even telling us what all of the ship archetypes are that they've come up with, or what ships are assigned to those archetypes. We have to go on third party sites like spviewer to even gauge what they've done, what ships are tuned vs not, etc. and all of that should be in the patch notes, prominently. It's not new by any means: CIG notes and change logs are near industry worst, but with a change on this scale it's genuinely inexcusable and it badly hurts the potential for feedback because we're all having to do so much work getting basic info that could be spent playing it. Their amateurish standards have reached a new level on this one tbh and it's a huge blow to my confidence in the teams, in the new PU leadership and in the project at all. They were supposed to be showing they've turned a corner this year but it's honestly looking like a new low.

[@yulfine1688]

probably because MM is still barebones they already had multiple videos and posts on spectrum covering all of this, also they already are changing how updates and patch notes are viewed and delivered this isn't like most games where they can fit it neatly into a short form post or a single webpage.

[@SgtTeddybear66]

I really enjoy your video today. You are saying what's been on my mind for a long time. Spectrum is FAR too hostile even to the most mundane things. The community and even the Moderators themselves have contributed to making the forums a hostile place that doesn't leave room for discussion.

[@imriestaffson9592]

how does a non-evo player post problems?

[@CitizenScott]

13:44 Preach.

[@bhee1076]

Im just frustrated that shields drop fully when going into nav

[@x3no83]

I see shots hitting, but not counting...

[@davidoloughlin3180]

seems like yogi and his crew didn't even listen to the backers lol they just came up with what they thought was a good idea and implemented it. you know they have pre screening for shows right ? they shoukd have it for implementing major game breaking components lime MM. even before hitting the ptu or eptu...

[@Charlouf_]

with those "i don't like" i think it's the 1st time in history we have a precise direction of what CIG want for something, so we can feedback accordingly. thx yogi.

[@romanwiller2180]

It would be nice if MM feedback was people sharing their experiences. Mostly whenever the discussion comes up its one person sharing an anecdote and 72 people saying they're wrong and need to take a long walk off a short cliff (do a backflip!).

[@Birnasuc]

I love holding w for 2s and reach a speed wall ❤️

[@Splincir]

Hey salte, i think you're getting more views because of the positive attitude you've had on a bunch of your videos lately. I dont always agree with you on your pov for the game, but i can always get behind just being more open and understanding to create a better community for the game we all want to play. Keep up the grind, man, and keep that positivity, though i know that's rough to do, especially in this community. I had what appeared to be an 8 year old attack me for voicing my opinion on the state of the game and master modes and how i think there are broader issues with systems that need to be brought in line with one another first, because at the moment elements of the game seem to contradict one another. I made one comment on how i think the mode switching feels bad, and not having shields for high-speed space travel is crazy and dumb in a future space sim. It feels bad and gamified in a bad way and also leads to the issue people have been pointing out with the mantis. Your comment on the butt nuggets that seem ever present in this community is all too accurate.

[@johnhill2495]

what does it fundamentally fix?

[@hangglidingmontana6134]

Whoa whoa whoa. Hold on. So Virgil and the unhealthy cult community were throwing all this shade at me back in January over my comments on MM. "Let it cook, they'll iterate on it" after explaining my frustration from no iteration in 2 mths as well as Nightrider-CIG scrubbing forums of ALL dissent. Constructive criticism as well.... I want a podcast on CIG and the hyper moderation of the various CI forums. It's deceptive to the investors. Issues stamped as fixed, still persistent for 7 yrs.....

[@GeneElder.R27]

im pretty sure Nightrider works out of the austin office located on Bee Caves Rd. Id love a picture of what he looks like.

[@hangglidingmontana6134]

@@GeneElder.R27 it's a game. A very flawed game. Don't forget that. Im happy with my own mental image of what nightrider is IRL. I don't need to be proven right. All I want, is for CI's acknowledgement (no fucking spin), a plan to prevent it in the future, as well as a handful of immediate job vacancies. They aren't worth being that upset at, dude. After following Chris for years, it probably isnt a rogue employee. its most likely directed from upper management.... Doesn't make it right, but don't put yourself in a vulnerable position with statements like that, either. Peace.

[@0Metatron]

MM was actually better in January, you’ve missed the point entirely. Group fights are still better than in live but all the cry baby’s crying for instant nav switching caused the team to buckle under pressure and make it switch quicker. Now there is an internal debate over it as the instant switch completely undermines what MM was about. That as well as they got rid of IFCS jerk because of people complaining about wiggling, now the ships feel stuck in the mud when trying to evade. It’s idiots who don’t know what they’re talking about giving bad feedback getting us to this point. The good thing is Yogi recognises all the worst issues

[@hangglidingmontana6134]

@@0Metatron you've gotta work on your creative writing sentence structure. I missed nothing. You spoke in a giant circle, then backpatted a dev for saying "we haven't done any of this, but we pwomise we will" Crybabies crying? Idiots who don't know what they're talking about? Man, this is SO constructive! If I boost, in space, am I still flying through invisible space soup? It was sold as a space sim. Yet has no gravity or physics and seems to get further from it, each 6 month patch cycle (lol). They failed to iterate last time, but this time is different.... Seems like you missed my original comment for what it was. Round 2?

[@Roob_65]

@SaltEMike. Thank you for providing a platform where people can speak their piece (even though it's KZbin - most comments are just lost in the shuffle.) Master Modes? As someone who has actually flown aircraft before I can tell you this: In decoupled flight, MM, to me, makes the rotational axis feel like you're still in coupled mode (always fighting the nose), and the translational axis feels almost pointless now. In the 3.22 model, I feel like decoupled gives me complete and fine control. You could probably ditch dual sticks (HOSAS) and go back to HOTAS with rudder pedals set up like a traditional aircraft which may feel more natural. I think they may have intended it that way (Who knows...). "Let people speak and stop trying to silence them." That will never happen with CIG because a lot of the devs are intolerant of anyone's opinion that challenges them. I stopped giving feedback because it doesn't matter how nicely you word it: if they don't like what you have to say you get deleted.

[@Traumglanz]

I like it, I liked the old one more as it was EASIER to fly for me, but I like it. Will I still like it in 4 weeks? No idea. But certainly it fixes a few design flaws and brings some new. Overall I really dislike the longer range engagements that are forced upon as (to be able to avoid incoming fire in a safe way and make best use of these insanely fast and strong laser cannons, the kill times feel sometimes to fast and sometimes to slow, depending on the individual ships, etc It's not in a good state, but it might work out with some more tuning. Anything non-combat though sucks hard. The new QT system is so much worse, while the map search is great, but the whole marker system handels, the speed on 100km rides in atmosphere is really hard to swallow, etc

[@mayoluck]

My opinion combat needs to be like boxing where ships have a "weight class". Like boxing some can fight out of its class bc of skill aka the pilot. That said two light weights can take 1 medium but would get handled by a heavy. Then scale that out appropriately.

[@eCoLL77]

Mike this is one of your best videos!

[@casstle178]

I’m a bounty hunter in trade. Not liking MM and I wasn’t an incredible pilot before. I could do ERT. Not easily, but consistently. I tried to play but couldn’t enjoy it and quit. I’ll try again in a few weeks.

[@reggiegage3051]

one of my favorite videos of yours... i sometimes disagree with you but i wholeheartedly agree on this episode

[@ZevesG]

wait wait WAIT!!! its going PU , the madlads the backlash will be glorius

[@dtrapid1]

If this is worth years of work and internal testing... I can see why backers are concerned. - It adds yet another 'mode' which I agree forces a choice. But again this could have been done using the power triangle imo - There is a real lack of vision for non combat ships (dare I say it wasn't even tought of, like at all) - also no way to test industrial ships in AC - Hell even the HH is just pretty much underwhelming defence wise... like how is that even possible (yeah I know turrets are worth shit) - Armor is not in... (hail mary excuse; bit like the reputation system for saltminers) How many iterations/rebuilds of the fly model are they going to do? After all those years that should probably be the one thing to be nailed to a tee.

[@yulfine1688]

Because balancing the flight model isn't easy and especially seeing most complaints its like people spent 10 minutes died and then complained. The game has so many complex systems and mechanics and the current flight model is a mess, people have given various opinions on how to fix it most have been tried and none have really fixed any of the issues, MMs started to fix some of the issues and introduced new ones because its an entirely new system that was designed and it changed everything plus as you said not everything is in such as armor which when it arrives it going to add further complexity and issues that once again have to be tweaked and played around with to see what works and doesn't work.

[@Dekartz]

​@yulfine1688 flight was one of thr first systems in the game and they still haven't got it close to finished. In the space sim. That should be very concerning

[@lordgeorgemaster]

My opinion is purely based off no in game experience of MM and just the data given by CIG. MM makes no practical sense, if I want to fly a plane with doors open / legs down. Nothing should stop me bar the repercautiolns of doing so.. eg atmospheric drag, vacuum. If I want to fire guns over the recommended speeds, I run the risk of failure. No matter the speed travelling at. nothing should dictate my shields. The flight model should be completely open for me to push the limits of a vehicle and not have it tell me what the rules are.. at my own risk. Make the use of the ship power delegation more important so I have to power management on the fly. Leading into component failure, power plant shutdown or failure when drawing too much power. And later coolant management so you also deal with heat to further deepen the diversity. Master flight, power management and coolant management and real the rewards.

[@Chris-lz4vk]

I hope they change it so you can at least use countermeasures in nav mode.

[@Diogenes76]

I am concerned that the problem is a PvE / PvP mechanics issue. In non flight MMOs they essentially have to have a table that reduces damage and CC against players. This is needed because the logic that makes PvE fun, does not translate to PvP combat and vise versa. Now this is a flight model, and makes me wonder if movement itself is the problem.

[@sunburntsaint]

I actually think it is fine. I dont have an issue with any of the experiences I have had.

[@ryod8064]

so wait, someone give me a TLDR on master mode. i dont get the problem, is master mode something kinda like in Elite Dangerous? why would it be a big problem or a controversial change in SC?

[@ligmasphere901]

Just enjoying arena sweats malding when its not even live yet 🍷

[@skyjordan8438]

MM is a solution to a problem that was invented on purpose imho, it doesnt solve a single problem they advertised it fixing beyond locking pve and industrial players into fights they cannot win and cannot escape from.

[@Teddy-tx7wb]

first, I have not played with master modes, in fact I have not played in a year and a half, since about the time they were announced. (reasons). But when they were announced, I thought "well, the game is going to become "Star Pirate Paradise." because also announced at the same time was physicalized cargo. what do these 2 things add up to? Physical cargo means pirates can finally steal your stuff, giving incentive to be a pirate; and Master Modes mean you can't get away from pirates. not only can't you get away from them, but they lie in wait with their shields up, weapons ready in their big badass combat ships. when you get interdicted, you come out of QT with no shields and no weapons- in your minimally combat capable freighter. and to even try and run, you have to give up shields and risk destruction. you're totally screwed. Star Pirate Paradise. and fuck everyone else. now I don't know if that is how it has played out? but that is what the original descriptions amounted to.

[@danielcojocariu8438]

That was a overreaction, you can get away if you get interdicted. You need to account hull hp and maelstorm when will get in

[@Teddy-tx7wb]

@@danielcojocariu8438 as with everything with Star CItizen, I'm sure there will be tuning and adjustment. I am just saying, with the way it was described when it was announced...

[@simonethier5793]

Any ship should zoom at 3000ms if they want. Hate that mode

[@Cornerboy73]

Honestly, it took me a little while to get used to MM but it really doesn't bother me much.

[@eavdmeer]

But do you do combat? It's perfectly fine for space trucking

[@allWorkAndNoJake]

Why not just buff the hell out of the distributor's impact to manage combat speeds? Maybe keep newtonian motion but debuff the shields with speed? MM is flawed because it feels so inconsistent with the "fully physicalized" universe they're building.

[@Babushka_Bob]

[message deleted by Nightrider-CIG]

[@revy_moto]

For me im just waiting for alot more content to come into the game. I haven't played in afew months now, im due a quick log in... But there needs to be a fair amount of change for me to be interested in having a good long game of it. I'm waiting for pyro basically... But also... I want to be able to play with people more easily. I know you can make friends and use discord and all that, but im not going to be able to always maintain that. I would like to be able to join groups through the world and the games lore itself, maybe even to be able to jump on coms with a group and go mining or what ever mission. Like to have a mission hub where people gather to work. Even have a none gaming hangout spot, like a bar where people simply have conversation, and everyone knows this is one of the spots people are just chating... And if you happen to be drinking a beer in IRL then good job its friday... But you know what i mean, im looking for a better social aspect because the potential of that alone is massive! I guess im just looking for more life in it. I want to hear more voices and meet more crews. My experience that im projecting onto star citizen comes from the experiences ive had in VRChat, during covid i was able to play that and meet people from all over the world... I was just using the desktop at first, but i did get a headset eventually. Now i know that game is completely different, but there is an element of realness to it. I had met people on that and had great conversations, ones that i would have never had the chance to have in my normal life... And i've met people i never get the chance to meet. Just, people are coming on to really interact. I just wish Star Citizen made it easier for me to just hop in and interact with other players... I just find that im logging in and im alone in my ship... I land on a station and it's empty, with the odd player running to sell there cargo. I will do the missions and i'll have fun, and i like that there is always that danger. But i really wish there where busy community areas. And i know this may all come to be with meshing ect. But ye, thats just my thoughts on it right now, there are 1000 different things, but right now i would love that in the game. Just being able to meet more people and do stuff together.

[@Maagnus]

MM is just boring hands down not even just combat, Racing sucks in it and just cargo sucks in it it boring to fly. not me being a hater I love this game but this change make me not wanna play.

[@dimitrirouge5568]

specialy racing suck now ... true

[@Kenodman]

MM feels a lot better flight wise. It's a lot more casual friendly too. Much harder to crash if you are in SCM modes or if you have your landing gear out. The sounds when you change modes always adds a little bit of extra ship immersion. It simplifies keybinds by reusing keys for the different modes. SC has way too many keybinds and they need better management like these. Overall, I like it. When it comes to combat, yes. I used to be able to solo AC Pirate Swarm with a Titan up to the last wave which was impossible IMO. But now I can barely get out of wave 2. AI is too sharp with their hits. I feel more sluggish as in I can't properly evade shots. I find it hard to get behind the enemy. And OMG, they swarm you and you are toast. I can't manage to get away like I used to. If I do, seems like at least one AI ship is always closing in on my tail. It feels almost unfair at times. I find myself missing a lot of shots too. So overall, combat feels really unpolished. My take is CIG wanted to focus on the feel of flight first and will focus on balancing the combat now. With the insane amount of ships in this game, I doubt they'll ever please everybody. Everyone wants their (favorite) ships to be good but for balance reasons, what you think would work for you might not be in the plans for them. It's going to be a painful process. Hopefully they can nail something decent very very soon. It's time the game starts shaping into what it will be so there's no turning back now. Let's hope for the best.

[@rupert456]

I have a conspiracy: MM first iteration is in the state that it is to maximise single pilot participation in Xenothreat

[@StoneCoolds]

I doubt they would expend so much time developing something just for 1 event that most probably isnt even going to work properly like most SC events 😂😂

[@johnpi2608]

Masters Modes make SC become Elite Dangerous!!! Airplanes in space suck butt, I want the older flight model back.

[@HappyHungrySleepy23]

I think people are jumping the gun a little bit. Im glad people are pointing out the issues to be fixed, but to think that this is the final form of flight is pretty short sighted in my opinion.

[@LasinoCapsen]

No, ppl are upset because we re seeing this again and again. we were right when we said this hasn't been tested/built for anything else other than sq42 (which is sad news for that game). We already new what issues MM will bring. Plus, there were modes before already. It failed. But later, CIG rejected 3.10 FM, again, because it was "arbitrary limitations". And now we have even more arbitrary limitations with few flight gameplay left. And we have to hear "this isn't the final form don't be short sighted", again? Really? Come one. Some ppl spent hundred hours digging this broken FM and providing feedbacks.

[@HappyHungrySleepy23]

@LasinoCapsen that's a fair response. I'm all for people telling cig how they can make things better, it just gets so toxic. But I see your point. I think I just need to take a break from the internet lol

[@leggomypotato1484]

​@@HappyHungrySleepy23 Unprofessional development is toxic, so I can't blame people who are upset. The issues brought up about MM should have resulted in canceled development of it long ago, especially since we had perfectly viable alternatives suggested in the forums that solve all the problems they thought MM would.

[@LasinoCapsen]

​@@HappyHungrySleepy23 There are toxic ppl sure, but CIG has some responsibilty in this. They hear but not listen. During the first ISC of 2024, I remember perfectly one dev saying " those who already reject MM are just against change". how give backers agency to provide healthy feedbacks with such statement (unprofessionnal imho). And the worst, is that they knew... The irony is that everyone asked for changes...actually...XD

[@Axi-Sol]

From the very first time I heard about MM I was already thinking it was gonna suck now I know it is. All they needed to do was slap an unlocked qt mode on and call it a day.

[@GrungeFreak1996]

LOL now i understand why i cant shoot ships in my andromeda?! when i start last year in november it was so much fun to have shipcombat but its not possible to ship combat solo anymore i think.. i believe they will change it i hope so.

[@Brakerofwind]

i was wondering if mike has heard of gem reviews lol. could content farm him and his channel for a while with his takes.

[@SpaceDad42]

Why

[@Brakerofwind]

@@SpaceDad42 i want to hear mike talk about it.

[@Helspyre]

I didn't comment in the thread because I haven't played MM enough to be fully informed, and I'm a bad player, but the reason is because it is just not fun compared to the current live flight model. I hope that after I'm forced to deal with it, I learn to like it.

[@_Anaklysmos_]

I bet you otherwise xd. If you don't like MM and can vaguely explain what you don't like about it or how it feels bad, you are already a really good player who understands the game mechanics. It's not a far way from there to become a somewhat decent pilot

[@Helspyre]

@@_Anaklysmos_ Thanks for encouragement. I basically have learned to strafe in my Arrow and anticipate turns from "jousting" enemies (PvE) and in MM I couldn't seem to get myself out of engaging in rock 'em sock e'm robots exchanges in the pocket. Again, I didn't give it much time, but from Yogi's comments hopefully there will be more improvements made on movement.

[@_Anaklysmos_]

@@Helspyre the problem for ships like the Arrow is that they took away speed and trichording and at the same time increased weapon velocities. That took away anything the Arrow excelled at. The Arrow is a nimble and relatively weak ship regarding fire power and HP. It relies on evading shots instead of tanking them and it only slowly chips away at its enemies whilst trying to stay in spots where the enemy can‘t hit them, aka get as close as possible and stay away from the enemy‘s nose. But that‘s not possible anymore thanks to MasterModes. If you want to get close you have to use main thrust only, otherwise you will get slowed down. And if you only use main thrust, you can‘t evade anything and are shot dead before you can even get close to the enemy. And once you ever get close enough to knife fight, it is mostly nose to nose combat thanks to the removal of trichording which the Arrow will lose. So if you love PvP, I would take a pause from SC during 3.23

[@Helspyre]

@@_Anaklysmos_ That was my limited assessment as well. I didn't mean to imply the proximity part was a problem, but yeah, the thrust observations explain why I was unable to find the same maneuverability in MM. To me the Arrow in 3.22 PU is "fun", and MM is not that. I hadn't got my skill up enough to start PvP, so I guess that will be yet a longer wait. Thanks for the response.

[@revy_moto]

Hey Salty! Your not an asshole!

[@MartinB034]

From what I've seen and heard, I totally believe that there is a large number of ppl adding their voices for or against MM that have NOT tried it at all. It's a good thing it's been put in now, they'll have to try it at last and be able to form an opinion for themselves.... or will they XD