You're Probably Playing the Wrong Ramp (in EDH)

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[@CreepsMcPasta]

Man, I needed this. So many guides say '10-12 ramp', but not of the nuance beyond that

[@taylorcollins9559]

You play mtg?!???

[@SoojArt]

first sleepycabin and now this, I can't get away from you

[@augustobs24]

Yeah, a lot of game guides rely on heuristics. It is easier to churn out content. Most deckbuilders out there are not “bad” but stick to those “rules” so much their decks are mediocre or unoptimized.

[@gutsbadguy50]

The command zone ratios have been a net detriment to edh deck building.

[@MageMinionsOP]

I was so confused when I saw this lmao.

[@thecactusmonkey9586]

Sir this is my emotional support cultivate

[@morgoth2425]

i swear people run it just to make a stupid joke about the art

[@stephenqueen6946]

accurate. I run cultivate because i have a nice version. My ranger's path is unused... because it's not shiny enough.

[@BrotherAlpha]

I've repeatedly played people on Arena that use Reliquary Tower, but cast absolutely no card draw. It makes no sense.

[@Orudaiken]

But the mana base is missing the critical mana symbol needed to pay that hand! If only I had a 4th swamp!

[@calebbarnhouse496]

Mana bases are not difficult to keep it so that you can something with no upside just because it has no real downside

[@jamescobblepot4744]

reliquary tower is a classic noob trap. In the right archetype it's obviously good. But outside of that it's functionally useless and just hurts your colors. But everyone including myself looks at it early on and thinks "Woah, you mean I will NEVER have to ever discard to hand size again, on a LAND? THIS IS SO POWERFUL" and then it almost never gets used and you forget about it until you finally start notice it doing nothing and all those times you needed a color and only had RT in hand. I remember when I started commander around maybe 2011ish every person I knew ran Reliquary tower and considered it a staple. I think it used to be close to 10 bucks back then too.

[@andresmarquez5241]

Instructions unclear, running a combo of 22 ramp/mana rocks

[@salubrioussnail]

Hey, that's a good number for some decks. My Glissa deck is running roughly that many, and I have another deck that runs 26 ramp spells with a land count of 43.

[@Qobp]

And only 30 lands...

[@andresmarquez5241]

@@Qobp 38* which I've seen is a good number to always be land flooded or mans screwed

[@DetroitTyler]

@@andresmarquez5241 depends on the curve of the deck and ramp/card draw ability.

[@agentkhaine2204]

“Play 10 ramp, several wipes, etc” drives me up a wall. When do I want to play ramp, how many cards have I seen by then, etc. determines the quantity I’ll go after.

[@submortimer]

I get that take, but I can also say that since I started building my decks from that Command Zone style baseline and THEN deviating from there, my decks just function way better.

[@CanadianBaconPwnage]

Here's another example. When building a Zacama deck, I generally run a large number of land based ramp, and only a couple of non-combo mana rocks (only Sol Ring and Arcane Signet, and those will change once I get a couple more 2 mana land ramp spells). This is due to Zacama's ETB caring about untapping lands, which is important for infinite combos. This means my curve and mana base reflects that: lots of basics, and a heavy leaning on forests/green producing lands. My deck runs smoothly as a result, and both Kodama's Reach and Cultivate play an important part in making sure that happens consistently, but I rarely put Cultivate/K. Reach in my other green decks unless I'm playing landfall or land-discard for value synergies. Great analysis, Snail!

[@AnonymousAnonymous-ht4cm]

Do you play aura based ramp in that deck, since it also benefits from the untap?

[@CanadianBaconPwnage]

@@AnonymousAnonymous-ht4cm Since Zirda is my companion, most Aura based ramp is inaccessible to the deck. There's a couple I could play, like Wolf Willow Haven, but I have a few ways to copy instants and sorceries, so those work better anyways.

[@hansmelby5080]

Cultivate and Kodama’s Reach were “staples” in the early days of Pre-cons and still show up in most pre-cons which contributes to their prevalence in EDHREC stats as many popular commanders are from pre-cons which often form the start of most decks.

[@hansmelby5080]

That said I tend not to play much 3 mana ramp these days.

[@rakkis1576]

Pretty much yeah. Like, it's not the *best* card, but it is solid enough that it tends to stick around just a little bit longer as other cards get phased out.

[@2424Lars]

They are good cards for casual tables that don't want efficient curve-outs and need mana-fixing for their budget manabases

[@braddionne9581]

Personally I’ve always prioritized Natures’s Lore and Three Visits. Early turns that untapped land can be useful. In addition, 4 mana on turn 3 is stronger than 5 mana on turn 4, ie Cultivate vs Nature’s Lore

[@toedrag-release]

I prefer cultivate over nature's lore, wile putting a land on the battlefield is great especially untapped I find the 1 mana more to grab another land ensuring I have a land drop next turn faaaar more beneficial in commander especially if you have a card that lets you play an extra land which every deck with green should have.

[@ReactiveDeactive]

@@toedrag-releaseI find your logic on not missing a land drop favorable but that every green deck should run a “you may play an additional land” type card not as much.

[@toedrag-release]

@@ReactiveDeactive To each their own, I like to include a couple cards that lets me play an additional land in my green decks definitely useful with cards like Cultivate.

[@ReactiveDeactive]

@@toedrag-release oh I agree to your statement definitely a good pairing. Just not consistent as that is the statement being made about cultivate. It all boils down to how you build a deck and if cultivate plus extra land plays works for you then who am I to judge as well!

[@MR-hk2qu]

I prefer Natures Lore and Farseek because it let's me remove the tapped lands from the deck, hopefully before i draw them.

[@_Astrum]

Commander Mechanic had a video that talked about tailoring your ramp to your mana curve. Their video was good at explaining the math, but this video really contextualizes why you would want certain types of ramp in certain decks. Also, Prof's recent videos about mana base and ramp got me thinking about these topics a lot more. 3+ CMC ramp is practically unplayable now in most decks, due to how fast MTG has become and the prevalence of good 1-2 CMC options. Once I started to apply all of this my decks suddenly became a lot more playable, and the high playrate of Cultivate now seems insane to me.

[@PaulGaither]

The secret is that 3cmc ramp was never good. There was an article + stuff I know I wrote myself at mtgSalvation going back to 2007 about 2cmc ramp in the format. 80%+ of the 2cmc ramp predates the year 2007. Arcane Signant is a famous card and all, but Signants are from Ravnica in 2005; Talisman AR from Mirrodin block two blocks before that; Three Visits is a 90s Portal functional reprint of the even older Nature's Lore and so forth. It kinda makes me angry how many people (The Command Zone) began to act like they discovered the value of 2cmc ramp in about 2019/2020 and tried to take credit for the discovery when so many pinned and shared content predated them by over a decade back then.

[@franslair2199]

This being said I recently saw one of his videos for the first time and his decks seem actually appalingly bad

[@notapplicable6985]

​@@franslair2199Which one? If it's prof he most does heavy budget stuff from what I've seen

[@franslair2199]

@@notapplicable6985 commander mechanic. He had a light-paws build that's got like 30 creatures in it

[@JohnSmith-vk9ds]

@@PaulGaither Yup. I remember being resoundingly mocked in my local pods back in 2011/2012 for running Ravnica signets plus the Lordwyn/Shadowmoor filter lands in my Zur commander deck. "Magical scenario" I was told, to expect that they'd line up just how I need them. To this day I include those filter lands in any tri-color deck that has more than a couple of important cards with double or more pips of the same color.

[@filippomilan2656]

I think that personally my deckbuilding got so much better when I started to look at ramp spells in the context of bridging the early turns to my commander/pivotal turns, instead of generic cards that up my mana. so like you mentioned, I love cultivate and Kodama when i want to cast my 5 mana commander. it fixes my colors, ramps me for one and ensures I have the last land I need the next turn. on the opposite end of the spectrum, I went back to the very first draft of my tovolar list and realized how ridiculous it was for me to run cultivate with a 3 mana commander.

[@thengine7]

It really depends. I'd still run cultivate/kodama if I want to be set up for later turns playing multiple spells (including card draw). Ignoring the mid/late game is kinda silly.

[@atinygoose6199]

"Swords to plowshares your toski" "Oh"

[@Mr_B_251]

I noticed this when I built Polukranos Reborn/Ruin Engine. I was loading it with a bevy of 2 drop ramp because that's the "bread and butter" and what I'm used to doing by default. It got bottlenecked. Forgetting that most of my commanders are at 4, and Polukranos is at 3, then flips at 6. I traded out all my 2 drop ramp for 1 and 4 drop ramp. So I could hit Polukranos on turn 2, ramp again on turn 3 with an explosive vegetation or something similar... in order to flip Polukranos as early as turn 4.

[@jaredarmstrong385]

Cultivate feels fantastic in landfall decks, then again the goal there is to create more and more triggers so it’s actually a pretty good spell specifically in that context.

[@Icameron259]

Harrow, Roiling Regrowth, Entish Restoration, and Springbloom Druid are all superior at generating landfall triggers at 3 mana.

[@timothye.2902]

Agreed. One of the best things you can do to improve Cultivate is to make the "put...the other [land] into your hand" part more impactful. A landfall deck would *love* to put an extra land into their hand. That's straight gas if they have landfall engines on board. Plus the archetype encourages a lot of ramp, making it easier to fit in ramp card and paying more mana for them. Even if Cultivate is "ramp piece #14", well I may very well be running 14 ramp in a landfall deck.

[@jaredarmstrong385]

@@Icameron259 Why would I not run all of them?

[@kylegonewild]

@@Icameron259 Timing specific triggers can matter. In a vacuum they're more efficient but in context of 100 singleton landfall they're all comparable spells with minor ups and downs to each other. Harrow is the only objectively superior of the 3cmc ramps due to the untapped entry at instant speed.

[@lunondisposable5382]

Counterpoint, the LotR Cultivate has dogs on it which makes it better

[@ichigoleader]

This video is especially interesting to me. I recently brewed a Mazzy Aura deck where I wanted as much interactions and stuff as Auras. So I ended up with fertile ground, utopia sprawl and so on for ramp and Kenriths transformation and Darksteel Mutation as removal and it really get my gears grinding when I really brew all by myself

[@Crazyphapha]

Discovered your channel today, this is the second video I've ever watched of yours. I'm new to commander, and was wondering why cultivate felt so bad to cast in my Henzie deck, whereas all the dorks felt so good. You've just made it click for me. I need to rebuild my ramp entirely, and then watch every video on your channel.

[@KasaiYuppa]

as a yugioh player, i needed to hear this SO BADLY! im not used to juggling both mana and card advantage so, this really gives me an insight on how to factor in mana better

[@deejayf69]

I agree, Ramp spells have nuance. For example, my Henzie deck runs Cultivate/Kodama's reach even though they get in the way of casting my Commander. However, since he's only a flavor tool for my big Haymakers and 3 colors, they serve their purpose of color fixing, ensuring that I don't miss a land-drop, which is vital for a Timmy-deck like mine, and getting me faster to my Etalis, lol.

[@danielcarranza351]

The reason I'm willing to play more mana inefficient spells that grab lands is because faster forms of acceleration often can make you more of a target, and mass removal of enchantments artifacts and creatures is very common among my play group, so dorks, rocks and mana boosting enchantments make you more vulnerable to getting set back when the inevitable boardwipes occur.

[@Interrobang212]

sounds like your meta has lots of answers and no efficient threats. Greed can outpace durdling if you're fast enough.

[@TheSpectralFX]

@@Interrobang212 Greed is easily punished tho. Interaction is a thing and I sincerely believe that lands are a much safer option when it comes to mana. It much harder if not straight out "Taboo" at most table to destroy people's lands. I'll do it as part of a win-con if I have to, but I'll usually refrain from that out of courtesy to my casual friends... *most* of the times anyways. There is also the fact that cards like blasphemous act card destroy entire boards for the low-low cost of one red mana... your 3 1 mana-dorks are not so ... "efficient" no more.

[@Funkytrip73]

@@Interrobang212 Lots of boardwipes in decks does not mean no efficient threats.

[@drew-id]

The justification for why you value land ramp is fair. But not in the afore mentioned example. 2cmc ramp gets you toski out a turn earlier, which replaces the 'land draw' of the cultivate example.

[@Aaron0000014]

@@TheSpectralFX Board wipes are what, 2 cards in most decks? I put them on better have it. Playing a lot of board wipes is just not a great proactive way to build. The best boardwipes either are all encompassing or are grossly cheap, like blasphemous act or toxic deluge.

[@authenticnaabi8974]

Can we try to approach this from another angle of point? The big reason to play cultivate is that while it's a colorfix, it's also 2 lands for 3cmc. Not 1 _land_ for 2cmc. Big difference. Also, 3cmc with single-color bip is fantastic from a typical ramping point in EDH. This means we have all the stupid nut lines from ultra-fast mana rocks (ie. sol ring, mana crypt so on). So in the end it's more like turn 2 ramp to turn 3 drops. Consider these lines: Turn1 Turn2 Turn3 Land + Mana crypt + Cultivate 5cmc Commander/Hand dump Land + Sol ring (+ 2cmc rock) 5cmc Commander/Hand dump or Cultivate 7cmc Commander/Hand dump Land + Mana dork (or similar) 3cmc Commander or Cultivate 5cmc Commander/Hand dump Etc. surely there are more lines with lotus petals and so on. In contrast, if you play something like rampant growth, you are missing the extra value and you are probably better off playing 2cmc mana rock unless you are on landfall. Maybe there are more nuances, but in general, if you play rocks and want to supplement that with extra ramp, personally I would probably play cultivate and its twin if you are aiming for 7+ cmc clonking fridge beatdown. Edit. But yes, the main point of the video is that people should think about how to build their ramp packets in their decks, which I totally agree with.

[@TheSpectralFX]

Another thing to add would be the synergy to be had between turn 1: 1 mana-ramp into turn 2: 3 mana-ramp Turn 3: ... Turn 4: Win the game. A LOT of people don't understand that. It's not a CEDH list, its just consistent. I learn from Constructed 60 card that consistency is easily weaponized, and a lot of my casual commander friends don't understand the RAW POWER of having differently named cards that does the EXACT same thing. It makes for so consistent decks that one ought to respect those spells. Also, bolt the birds, I don't care about decorum at a multiplayer table, if you have a turn 1 sol ring game and I can vandalblast the thing before it gets out of hands? bet.

[@Gweezy12]

The hitting the land after is really good, because you didn't really ramp if you don't hit your next land drop

[@Aaron0000014]

It is better to play the best 1 mana dorks alongside all the best 2 mana rocks to take advantage of strong turn 1 hands. Mana crypt/sol ring and a land can easily lead to rock+dork since the rock can then tap for the dork. Cultivate just ends your turn regardless of what else you have, and if you have a better play turn 1 it gets worse as you already ramped to playmakers

[@camoking3609]

@@Aaron0000014 160$ vs 0.75$

[@Aaron0000014]

@@camoking3609 Every card is 75 cents if you play proxies

[@squarepusher13z]

Love your videos on deck design so much. I have played for a long time with lots of breaks. This time when I got back into MTG, people just play EDH, which is super fun. But it seems like a play against the same 100 cards in every deck. This all makes so much sense.

[@jesushankerstein9487]

I've been being more creative with my ramp outside of green decks with Bauble, Solemn, Sword of the Animist, Ornithopter of Paradise, etc and less rocks. It is shaking my buddy who I have review my rough draft of decks to his core.

[@MrPhyCycle]

My anecdotal evidence agrees with your analysis. Cultivate was awful in my Chatterfang deck where it sat in my hand because I'd rather cast my commander and then make tokens. On the other hand, it made my Reaper King deck functional where 5 colours as fast as possible is the goal.

[@kitbishop5139]

this video unlocked my brain to a new way of thinking about mtg. My deckbuilding will never be the same, thank you

[@Tristyn_Waterman]

This is very good advice. I run all creature based ramp in my sidisi deck, and I tried to stay away from mana dorks in favor of things like wood elves or sakura tribe elder that are less vulnerable, but before now i hadn't considered any of the things you bring up. Maybe i can do better than just looking at what the card type is

[@jessemanning7860]

After a few years of building some edh decks I've started to pay much more attention to what cards do for the deck rather than the general staples, even to the point of cutting sol ring out of a few decks because it doesn't push the gameplan forward. An example of this is Will, Scion of Peace; I cut sol ring for an Ivory Tower and a plethora of 1 mana "gain life" effects, with will out and able to tap, the lifegain is going to payoff so much more for the spells that Will wants to cast than the potential "turn 1 sol ring" Great video, glad to see someone bring this to light!

[@TheSpectralFX]

I don't know how I feel about cutting sol ring. I agree with the sentiment but its mana positive. Its potentially 4 mana on turn 2. I am no genius but I fail to see any list that would want to throw that potential out the window.

[@Aaron0000014]

Sol ring is only worth cutting if your deck is mostly pips, rendering it useless

[@swampyswamperton6536]

@@TheSpectralFX Sol ring is not good in decks that are low to the ground and only need colored mana. A low cmc yuriko combo deck, for example, does not have a ton of uses for colorless mana as you never even have to pay the commander tax once

[@ShadowsOfTheSky]

I first made this realization when building a Wise Mothman deck… I realized after having a Cultivate and Kodama’s Reach and testing a few times, my 4th turn always left me casting my commander, and then doing nothing with 2 lands untapped. So, take out the 3 mana ramps for the “worse” 2 mana ramps like Rampant Growth, and suddenly my turn 3 is always my commander, and I probably play a 5 mana card to set up an early synergy, start getting some +1 counters on 2 of my creatures that love counters, and there we go. Massively improved the flow and feel of my deck, despite playing cards I thought were “worse” than others.

[@llamarama6976]

Wait did my question on tovolar spark this video? Because thats cool. My main opinion for tovolar (and toski by extension since they do similar things) is burgeoning. Burgeoning is a very powerful ramp card getting potentially 3 more lands by the time its your next turn on play. But its main weakness is that you quickly run out of lands to play. Tovolar and toski solve that problem by simply drawing lots more lands. It fits neatly as a turn one play as well which is always welcome in a fast deck (tho honestly for my tovolar decklist im most excited by a turn one village messenger. Play lotus petal tovolar get card from moonrise intruder)

[@llamarama6976]

The general direction i have started thinking for the deck is very fast mana. Lotus petal and chrome mox (drawing lots of cards means less lukely to care about it costing a card) to get a body and follow it up with tovolar the next turn as quickly as possible

[@salubrioussnail]

Yup, thanks for the inspiration! I’m a big fan of commanders that let you design your deck in a very streamlined way by fully solving one of the deck’s problems.

[@linkal_8097]

I think Cultivate is heralded as a "must run" as the initial commander decks all had more expensive 3 color commanders with splashy effects (for the most part) so not only was it good at fixing mana, but it effortlessly fit into the curve of the deck

[@alessandrobrendolan9620]

If you pass turn 4 without making a land drop you'd wish you had that cultivate over harrow or most the other ramp spells at 3 mana. "Cultivate is bad" is a meme perpetrated by people who on turn 3 have a sol ring, a mana crypt, a dockside and are hellbent (someone countered their necropotence).

[@ladriel8339]

(your videos are always on-point, I appreciate them very much !) This is one of my very first lessons I learned while deckbuilding EDH. I did cram every staple ramp spells I could think of and realized my commander was always out 'awkwardly'. Then did the opposite and could get it out on-curve reliably but then mana-dorks would just sit in my hand. I settled on between 1/2 and 3/4 of my ramp dedicated to getting the commander out, and the rest for good stuff. On ~10 rampish card a deck it gives you some leeway without compromising your late game. But again depending on the curve and gameplan sometimes you have to go more all-in in either ! Also you should spread it over multiple types of cards (artifacts, creatures, etc) and this rule applies to basically all other categories like draw, removal, etc

[@khay0z]

Fantastic video and content, couldn’t agree more. I run a Radha Heir of Keld deck playing exclusively 4 cmc ramp to get me to 6-7 mana by turn 4.

[@AilithNix]

once again, Salubrious snail releases a video containing nothing but good deckbuilding advice. A lot of people tend to gloss over their deck composition in favour of jamming more winmore cards, and end up with weird lopsided decks that have a ton of random terrible ramp that doesn't synergize with their decks gameplan. I really like how you focused in on needing to look at your ramp package critically, and cut cards that you might consider staples if they don't work for your deck very well. One thing that I think could've been touched on a bit more is the raw efficiency of ramp. In lower power games then synergy is important, but the higher power you go, the less you care about synergy and the more you care about raw power. In my highest power non-cedh green decks, the ramp generally looks the same: Sol Ring, Wild Growth, Utopia Sprawl, and like 5 or 6 1 mana dorks because the early turns become more and more important, so getting your ramp out early so you can start progressing your board while still holding up interaction to stop potential wins becomes more important. Of course, if given the choice between Sakura Tribe Elder and Rampant Growth if I had room for 1, I'd take the one that synergizes more with my deck - it's not that synergy doesn't matter at all, just that efficiency outweighs it the higher power you go.

[@Tman_Hall]

This was immediately helpful to me. I had jammed Cultivate& Kodama's into Arcades, as well as both of the haste boots for protection for him. This made it immediately obvious why my favorite ramp spells were wrong for my deck, and just questioning the boots gave me the opportunity to look at better options. My ramp base is better suited to my game plan now and I'm running protection spells that actually make sense for my deck instead of just the boots

[@Nyundaa]

This video is a better argument than most on playing different ramp cards but there is one thing I want to bring up. Lower MV doesn't actually mean you don't want ramp, decks with a lower curve in EDH often do want to spend just as much mana as the higher curve decks but that mana will be spent on multiple small spells instead of just one big one. So yeah a deck may not want to play a 5 drop on turn 4 but it might want to play a 2 drop and a 3 drop. Tovalar and Toski especially as they both draw cards so you'll always have plenty of spells to play with that extra mana.

[@JillTGear]

I’ve taken the mentality of “what does it offer to the deck” into more consideration in the last few years. I found out spells like cultivate are amazing in a Field of the Dead strategy because they can help you get your (non-)snow basics to help get your lands with different names going, AND hit more land drops to trigger field. I normally don’t like cultivate for how much it costs, otherwise

[@TCG9777]

This video < me playing decks that pop off around turn 5-6 but need to ramp hard in the early game

[@PrinceK0mali]

I do really enjoy Cultivate and Kodama's Reach in Wort the Raidmother. If it's early then it can help setup turns to get Wort out easier but Wort can copy spells like crazy and Kodama's Reach and Cultivate grabs 4 cards out of the deck, normally deck thinning in EDH has a very miniscule gain but with a spell grabbing that many cards out of the deck then the actual gain of thinning starts becoming way more noticeable.

[@86Kadi]

Yep, deck thinning in Wort is a very real thing. I especially love when I get to double cast Boundless realms - usually means I’ll be killed before my next turn or spend 10 minutes copying spells until everyone is dead.

[@salubrioussnail]

I’ve played with a budget wort deck and I feel like I would never want that many lands to hand, since that means I might end up with a situation where I don’t have enough lands to ramp out and I have less mana than I would otherwise. I also feel like the deck thinning is probably still neglible, but the list I’ve played is running 7+ tormenting voice effects so I could see things feeling worse if those filtering slots were dedicated to some dumb techy bullshit enchantments or whatever cards most commander players run lol

[@PrinceK0mali]

@@salubrioussnail the tormenting voice effects is another thing I have that I enjoy doing with her. The absolute worst case is those extra lands are just used for land drops, best case it becomes fuel for things like pirate's pillage, reckless windfall, big score, or even the miniscule tormenting voice.

[@noahdapp8423]

I love that he points stuff out that makes total sense but you don't think about it until some one points it out.

[@bradcallahan3546]

Like the fact that this whole video is garbage?

[@swampyswamperton6536]

@@bradcallahan3546 ??

[@Anthropologize]

Specifically analyzing the culture of cultivate. *Chef's kiss* A+ job as usual.

[@wickederebus]

6:10 No love for Elvish Mystic? I'm glad to see someone knows about the "2 female elves" mana dork that is Fyndhorn Elves.

[@spencerstanley4759]

I never thought about exactly this, but I built Omnath Locus of All and exclusively put in 2 mana rocks or ramp spells, so I could always play Omnath on 3, and an 8 drop on 4.

[@crazydeadperson]

I feel like cultivate is good enough 70% of the time. Its both cheap enough and wide spread enough to be easily obtainable theres little reason for most people to care about minor nuances in a format more inherently social than cutthroat competition

[@swampyswamperton6536]

why not just run all basics and no ramp or color fixing because the game is inherently social. Infact why even run any card the game isnt cutthroat competition

[@justinayran]

I tend to value flexibility over efficiency. In my 5 color control deck, I run things like Growth Spasm (makes a token blocker just in case I need it, or something to bargain), Road / Ruin (extra removal), Spring / Mind (card draw), Migration Path (cantrip), and Titania's Command (lots of modes). I usually don't have to worry about outpacing my opponents since I can just board wipe if they get too far ahead. I also draw a lot of cards, so stuff like Urban Evolution, Growth Spiral, and Eureka Moment can actually ramp me (or save me from a big swing if I have Glacial Chasm in hand)

[@joebaumgart1146]

There's a Portal 3 kingdom card called Overwhelming Forces. 6BB destroy all your opponents creatures and drawva card for each one you destroy.

[@justinayran]

@@joebaumgart1146 that's more expensive than my entire deck combined. Haha. I'm good with Farewell, Hour of Revelation, and the rest of my board wipes that can hit everything.

[@Aaron0000014]

@@joebaumgart1146 card is not that good ngl. It is target opponent, so it is immediately way worse in EDH than any other boardwipe, but it is also 8 mana which is pretty nuts. Flexibility is far more valuable for removal than anything. It would be better to play toxic deluge, damnation, or any random 6 cost card would be better.

[@MattIsAMage]

another lesson i have heard from creators about ramp is: "I want half my deck to make mana", which thinking about generic numbers of 37 lands + 10 ramp, yeah that's about right honestly! and the best way to start a deck is: cast all your spells, where do you run out? because the worst position to be in is "I cant cast my spells"

[@PownzerX]

On on hand how many manarocks/ ramp is required is a solved equation- linear algebra has screwed us once again. Generally (and significantly simplifying for yt comments) for a 3 avg cmc deck you need 41 lands- minus 1 land for every 3-4 cheap pieces of card draw or ramp (basically everything under thran dynamo) Though, this formulaic and bog standard approach is probably what causes cultivate to appear in these decks of figuring out if it actually works which is a really good callout, and is making me reevaluate some mana bases I’ve been making especially to consider how to get the most out of them. Great video!

[@salubrioussnail]

See you need a probabilistic model to account for different mana costs, since a 1 mana draw spell is better than a 2, a 2 mana rock is better than a 3, and so forth. You could model odds of missing mana drops each turn up to 5 (or land drops if you care about tempo). You could also probably come up with a weighting scheme to be more usable while preserving most of that complexity though--Preordain replaces 2/3 of a land, sol ring replaces 1/2, mind stone replaces 1/4, and etc etc. Or you could throw all that out the window and run 43 lands and 26 ramp spells. Let me tell ya, the mana train never stops when I play that deck. Glad you like the video!

[@johnreese5739]

Praise the snail

[@joshuashevchuk7279]

The biggest problem with mana curve that I have noted. Especially after playing enough commander, is that getting your commander out once for 3 mana does not means it’s the most efficient play if you minimize your ramp for that consistency. In all likelihood, if you commander is a king pin. You will need 1-2 extra mana to keep him alive and have haste if you need to deal combat damage. In that case ramp big before your command is played is the viable option in 90% of commander decks. Unless your kingpin commander is cmc 1-2 you have no downside from ramping to 5/6 or even 9-11 mana by turn 3. Especially if you drop a quick card draw engine or general card draw to keep up tempo

[@JakeTheJay]

I have a deck that has an interesting problem when putting this advice to use. It only really has 1 mana spike at 3, but the commander is Beledros Witherbloom, a 7 drop that fuels my aristocrat plays with the ability to untap lands and generate plenty of pests. Would Cultivate and Kodama's reach be bad in my deck if they greatly help towards getting my commander out faster without risking too much since I have multiple cards that would just kill my own mana dorks or destroy my own artifacts if I played them?

[@patrickdelaney4016]

There probably is a good reason to run a combination of the two. The dorks can be dropped t1 -> into a t3 cultivate/kodama on a very good opening hand, your other 3mana spikes, and at the very least they are aristocrat fodder to your sacrifice outlets if drawn off the top. Cultivate and Kodama on the other hand get you closer to 7 mana by a land etb and a land in hand (lands being important for your commander). I'd recommend goldfishing your deck to see what combination plays the best for you. Try: Bird of Paradise, Boreal Druid, Elvish Mystic, Fyndhorn Elves, etc for the dork ramp Rampant Growth, Cultivate, Kodama's reach, Skyshroud Claim, etc (4 mana ramp card that gets you to 7 on turn 5 if you hit all land drops) for the land ramp Primal Druid, Viridian Emissary, Phyrexian Tower, The Golden Throne, Crowded Crypt, DawnTreader Elk, Growth Spasm(land + sac fodder) and Sakura-Tibe Elder these care about being sacrificed/ creatures dying.

[@jerryloiselle8507]

Same here but instead of cultivate kodamas reach, put land ramp on creature so it can turn on your aristocrat build (one more card with grim haruspex, one more creature to sacrifice for one more drain with blood artist, etc.) The examples for those kind of creatures are wood elves (probably the best), sakura tribe elder, farhaven elve, elvish rejuvenator, yavimaya granger, topiary stomper, yavimaya dryad, etc. Ask me for more, I'm the creature synergy guy ahahaha

[@salubrioussnail]

I second the suggestion of creature-based ramp, that sounds great in aristocrats sounds great if you need more on 3. That’s not to say that Cultivate/Kodama’s reach are bad-if you’re ramping to 7 the extra land might come in handy sometimes, but it’s certainly worth considering how that stacks up in comparison to the benefit of having an extra 1/1.

[@dreadgray78]

IMO in any 2 color deck with green, Nature's Lore & Three Visits, then Skyshroud Claim should come in first for sorcery-speed ramp since if you have any duals w/ the Forest type these automatically get you exactly the lands you need and get them untaped. Each of these costs less than sticker cost on net, so the first two should act like 1 mana dorks or 2 mana rocks that make the colors you need, and the second acts like a 4 mana rock that makes 2 of your colors. That plus dorks / land ramp creatures should be enough ramp - green should never need to run rocks unless its an artifact-centric green deck, which as far as I know Beledros isn't. Wood Elves is probably the best land ramp creature since it gets an untapped Forest as well. So it acts more like a 2 mana rock.

[@zbronstein3901]

Culling the weak is an incredible ramp card in black. With a dark ritual, a 1 drop, a forest and swamp you can get Beladros out on turn 2. Elves of deep shadow is a great golgari mana dork. Blood pet could be useful to invest one mana on one turn to use it later on a later turn.

[@didntwantmyrealnameanymore]

I have a Sarkhan soul aflame deck that runs basically no ramp at all because you want to either tap out for a dragon or leave up all your mana for tricks and counter magic every turn

[@AwkwardDreamer]

Something I'm curious about, that oddly wasn't talked about, is the relevance/utility of the ramp spells. As in, I usually might run reach/cultivate but depending on curve (or sometimes regardless of curve) I'll run ramp that fogs or ramp that's attached to removal or ramp that has other modes. Usually it costs more upfront but has the benefit of not being a dead draw. Additionally, alongside that same core idea, preferring ramp that doesn't specify 'basic land' goes a long way as well. Especially in multicolor decks. Being able to Skyshroud Claim for example and find g/r and g/u land sources for example is huge. Some of my favorite ramp is land ramp. Land cards that ramp you or filter lands for you via land cycling (special mention the 2+ cycles of cards that can be cycled for land but equally are not a dead draw). For example, Myriad Landscape or my personal favorite Krosan Verge (which let's you not only ramp as a playable landslot but also can get nonbasic forest/plains so it's color fixing is huge in 3+ color decks with g/w

[@DragonmasterSK]

A good way I found to know how much Ramp you need is to goldfish. So let's say you're uninterrupted and you can play a regular game (not counting on Sol Ring) and you get all your combo pieces which would let you win the game, there. For example. * On my Yarok deck I'll play a Mana Dork on turn 1 *Turn 2 I play A mana rock or signet. (I'll use the mana usually on either a 2 cmc ramp spell or tutor *Turn 3 I play either Birthing Pod or Vannifar *Turn 4 Ill play Yarok. Then use vannifars effect to go for Peregrine Drake by chaining the untappers that ETB and you know the rest. Infinite mana with either Eternal Witness or Archaomancer and a victimze or ghostly flicker. So for a consistent Win turn 4/5 win I need 2-3 mana accelerants. The components are the Mana Dork and the signet/talisman. So I would suggest 20 ramp for a deck with that power. It's just a bit slow for CEDH territorry but consistent enough to put up a decent threat by turn 5. So I usually use about 7 mana dorks and 10-12 rocks (talismans, signets,fellwar stone and of course arcane) or cards like rampant growth and farseek. This usually assures me a turn 2 double spell and a turn 3 engine set up so Yarok comes out and immediately provide value. I might delay it a turn if I don't have the follow up play. So yeah. I suggest 18-20. Ramp spells if you're setting up the wincon on turns 4-5)(Uninterrupted)

[@hoodiegal]

I wish you would have commented on "play extra lands per turn" kinds of ramp as well, because I've found that an Exploration usually feels way more powerful than any other ramp spell if you're playing a deck that's good at drawing lots of cards, while spells like Cultivate feel better in decks that don't draw as much.

[@deezboyeed6764]

As someone who has a biggggg addiction to five colour decks, I mostly used things like cultivate and cirtcicous route to fix my mana base. I also tend to not play decks that are built around the commander to win. So for example I made a tribal elemental with commander being horde of notion. The entire concept is I can play my deck without my commander and potentially win, then late game I pull my commander out and slap out all my elementals again and again hopefully after most removal has been used.

[@Dev.L]

I have to disagree with you on this one. Cos for hands tribal Kodama's Reach and Cultivate are the only acceptable ramp. Lol. I totally agree though, people get used to something long enough they don't really look at it until it's presented to them.

[@Controlqueen31]

There is one basic thing edh players need to undertand about Cultivate and Kodama's Reach. If your commander is 3cmc/4cmc and you want it out as early as possible, never play 3 mana ramp spells, never. Play the two mana ones, the mana dorks, the enchantments, but never 3cmc spells that ramps you. I know that, in lower power level tables, "loosing" a turn 2 (if you ramp on turn 1) or 3 on cultivate is not bad, it's OK actually, but playing always Sol Ring, a mana dork or Wild Growth on turn one; or a Farseek/Nature's lore, etc... On turn two is far more important and efficient.

[@nathantyrrell3824]

Such good advice! Definitely noticed the difference when I made the switch in one of my decks with a majority of 4 cmc creatures when I made sure all the ramp was 2 cmc costed.

[@sirknightdude2587]

Fetching 2 lands for 3 is still the best rate. It very simply smooths a 3 land opening hand that top decks 0 lands into one with certainty making it to 5 mana. The game isn't over when you play your 3 CMC commander far from it. Even low drop creature decks want mana to play more low drop creature spells. Consistently playing your land for turn and using your available mana is one of the biggest goals in mana base building.

[@bigspagheti4119]

This video gave me so much nuance that I'm going home and changing the ramp in some of my less functional and consistent decks and I feel it'll explain so much as to why they dont work. 3 mana ramp "staples" have mentally poisoned both me and those decks.

[@the_wake_]

This is such a great video, and I have seen it absolutely abused lately. I'm not sure how people point to this and say "Putting Rampant Growth in a 3CMC commander decks or Cultivate in a 4CMC commander deck is wrong" after you put so much thought and nuance into this explanation, but internet gonna internet I guess. Anyway, this is super helpful. While I don't run green often, I do get to see this at work in a lot of my decks. I have a Clavileno deck that absolutely wants to curve out into an attacking Vampire + Clavileno by turn 3, so the ramp it looks for is stuff that gives it additional value and late-game reach, and some ritual effects that give it explosive openings and cash in on its inherent card advantage later on. On the other hand, Stella Lee also costs 3, but she really wants to come down and either threaten interaction, or just immediately double-spell to trigger her impulse draw. And she's heavily incentivized to hold onto some cheap cards so she can double/triple spell later on, meaning holding back an Abrade or Bitter Reunion for later turns becomes extra cards.

[@benhensley3621]

I feel like this is just distilled wisdom. There are MANY reasons to play Cultivate, but also lots of reasons to avoid it in certain decks.

[@smoolz7818]

devils advocate for cultivate in toski: you suspect your opponent has something like path to exile or swords, so you want to ensure you have an additional mana on t4 for a protection spell like tamiyo's safekeeping. I hate casting my commander with no backup plan for removal, protection spells and mana to cast them are important when I'm putting together a list. I even run cultivate in my kyodai gates list, but I only do that because I also run scapeshift, I sac the basics for gates and other valuable lands, then splendid rec a full graveyard of lands to hopefully be able to maze's end in the same turn if my lands are coming in untapped.

[@sleepybones5726]

I like the way your snail brain thinks. I've been doing this subconsciously for years, but found it hard to put into words, lol.

[@jonathanryals9934]

Well i start off by getting all my ramp cards together, and then i look at how many ramp cards are recomended, finally i put them all in the deck and hope for the best...

[@satansamael666]

There’s a gigantic elephant in the room; namely rituals and mana engines like Smothering Tithe. Might be an interesting idea for a future video.

[@joachimpearson4892]

I have a Ragavan commander deck and people are genuinely surprised to find out it doesn't run any mana rocks. Crazy to feel that way when you're looking at a mono-red aggro deck that already generates it's own mana.

[@PeteB90]

Sir, get your hands off my Cultivate! But good food for thought, I didn't consider the commander CMC with ramp spells before.

[@robbiehardy3228]

I'm someone who proudly proclaims Cultivate as my favorite card ever printed in Magic. I can see objectively that it is showing its age compared to the days when Kaalia and Riku were the new hotness, however, if you think I should cut it from my decks: feel free to pry it from my cold, dead hands! But, yeah, great points and video!

[@martinpatton8799]

Every video on this channel is great

[@rileykwinn3527]

Cultivate is still pretty great, I would take any 2-3 cmc land ramp over a mana rock or mana dork unless I have strong enough artifact/creature synergies to justify playing ramp that dies to any board clear. I feel like the importance of resiliency in ramp spells was underplayed in this video; since mld is stigmatized in EDH, you want to play land ramp whenever possible; burnished hart, solemn, and myriad landscape are the first cards I add to any non-green deck. Nature’s lore, three visits, rampant growth, farseek, into the north, and sky shroud claim are some of the most powerful spells that can be played at non-CEDH table.

[@entertainmentinc9735]

You need cultivate in a werewolf deck to recover after a board wipe. Or to play your commander on turn 6 or 7 when there’s less removals being casted. You don’t need your werewolf commander on turn 2,3, or 4.

[@KodamaoftheWeastTree]

Oh, this isn’t magic the Noah. Goodbye.

[@TheSpectralFX]

I often tell to people, it depends. Why play things like Kodama's reach in a poison counter deck... when "Expand the sphere" exists? sure, its one more mana... but top decked in the late game, it can be an out of the blue win-con. Why play Cultivate in a landfall deck, when "entish restoration" potentially gives you more landfall triggers? It's about floor and ceilings of a given card in the context of your list. As he said this, "what are you ramping for?" is an important question. Stick to your lanes, do what your deck want to do.

[@aklepatzky]

So no kodamas reach or cultivate in aesi according to this?

[@franciscooliveira8939]

another thing to take into consideration is what your commander is, i feel like, if my commander is a plainswalker, i would rather have solum, sakura or burnished hart has ramp, who can also serve as protection to my commander insted of ramp spells

[@EvolutionSTUD10S]

This is super validating. I often argue cultivate shouldn’t be played outside of 5 color and 5+ CMC decks. Even at a budget there are better options. We don’t think enough about why we’re re playing certain cards.

[@joplin4434]

With the ammount of dual and triple lands 5 color decks should not run the number of basics needed so that cultivate is good. You can play 1 to 3 basics and that means cultivate doesn't even fix. if you want to play budget maybe but 5 color budget just sucks. Between shocks, battlebond lands, triomes, rainbowlands and fetches you have like 30 cards you should run before any basic or consideration and then the slowlands and checklands are also better than running cultivate. You need non basic ramp in 5 color decks

[@WarrickRanger]

Want to shout out one of my favorite ramp spells - Search for Tomorrow. Suspending on turn 1 give you 4 mana on turn 3, same as a signet. And there are very few 1 cmc ramp spells that aren’t mana dorks.

[@christophwehrmann892]

Such a good video and yet such underrated this channel. Give this man more attention! He deserves it 👐

[@deliberatelybob6161]

I very much agree with a lot of your points, but I also wanna quickly play devil's advocate here in regards to Cultivate. Consistency: Cultivate makes decks more consistent by allowing them to hit land drops, acquire their colors, and curve out while ramping in a single spell. Card advantage: Getting both a signets worth of mana while also getting a land in hand is innate card advantage that every deck benefits from. Low cost ramp: Same cost as a sphere, not terribly out of the way even for the decks that would have better turn 3 alternatives. Super Cheap: Consistently sees reprints despite its popularity. Overall is it optimal for every deck/strategy? Of course not, however, can every single deck benefit from this card being included? Almost always. I'd even say it's better than say signet because sometimes signet gets played as your missing land drop for the turn (gross) or you play signet only to miss your land drop next turn. (also gross) Conclusion: Due to it's low cost (both real & in game), the built in card advantage, and the consistency it provides both for hitting land drops (which is very important) while also acquiring a player their colors, I'd argue that while Cultivate can be replaced depending on the deck/strategy, that it is very much a card deserving of its praise from the community.

[@utuberaptor]

Jesus, I've been playing since New Phyrexia and I've never thought of my ramp package like that. I do always just throw in a lot the staples without much critical thought... thinking about what turn you actually plan on casting your commander is so obvious I'm smacking myself in the face right now. Thanks for the video!

[@ryanhefner2011]

Cultivate/Kodama's reach allows you to run a lower land count in decks that otherwise want to land ramp a whole lot. Especially good in decks with high CMC commanders.

[@deadNdivine12]

Says everyone defending the slot used up by cultivate.. oh well to each their own.

[@ryanhefner2011]

@@deadNdivine12 you would run Arcane Signet over Cultivate in a green deck that already has Nature's Lore and Tree Visits?

[@OdinPlays94]

I don't think cultivate and kodama's reach are overplayed or anything. They get 2 cards from your library for 3 mana. Are they particularly useful in most game plans outside of landfall? No, not generally. But what they do is increase the chance of you pulling a card off the top that you're actually going to play. I still think it's better to play ramp that benefits your playstyle though. Kami of whispered hopes is a prime example for +1/+1 counter decks. It's a hardened scales effect on a body that taps for mana based on its power so it progressively becomes more useful as the game goes on rather than becoming redundant as the game goes on. I'll find tapping kami for 4 mana exponentially more useful on turn 7 than I will tapping elvish mystic for 1 green on the same turn.

[@Mekmassimochannel]

I actually sort of had my own thoughts about the matter recently, cause I built a Troyan, Gutsy Explorer deck, with the idea of dropping big splashy 5+ drops as soon as possible. Playing my commander on curve, on 3, means i get to play a 6 drop on T4, assuming I never miss a land drop. But, if I play a dork on T1, i can speed everything by a turn, and drop whatever 6 drop i have in my hand direcrly on T3. Figuring this out, I just said "screw it", and decided to add only the ramp spells i could play for 1 mana to the deck (Mana Dorks, Wild Growth effects, Exploration technically counts...) to Maximize the chance of hitting T2 commander into T3 big spell, cutting every other ramp spell, with the exception of a couple expensive ones i could cast off the commander (Open the Way, Gilded Lotus, Thrix the Sudden Storm...). And so far, it seems to be consistent enough. I don't even feel too bad if i miss the dork on 1, cause that means on T2 i can hold interaction if something crazy somehow happens. Came to a lot of the same conclusions that you made in the video, so I feel very proud of myself for coming up with it on my own

[@LionEagleOx]

Cultivate is more about keeping up with land drops and removing land from the deck in mono vs multi. Don't have a land? Now you can make your land drop for the turn, as well as add an additional land to the field. Already played a land? Put a land into play, and have a land to play your next turn.

[@l-gzy7400]

This is why in Obeka I dont run cards like commander sphere, talismans and signets get 4 mana on 3 which is where the curve is, so cards like commander spehere doesnt really do much

[@ryan-cn2rq]

*reading the title knowing my average turn 3 board state is 3 lands and 1 or 2 mana rocks at most* yeah probably

[@chargingbadger_]

So true. A while ago I realized my Gitrog Monster edh deck really didn’t need Cultivate, and the many variations of Harrow are much better.

[@Temzilla2]

Toski and Tovolor don't need cultivate, but not because they are low mana and draw cards, but because you want to establish your board before playing them to get value from them. They want other permanents on the board before them to get value out of their triggered abilities. Cultivate is perfectly fine in a deck that doesn't really want to play other permanents before their commander because it's a "whenever you play x" value engine. Things like Miirym, Go-Shintai, etc. In a deck like Niv-Mizzet Parun, you want as much ramp as you can get (that will actually accelerate your niv), but in a deck like Raffine, you probably don't want to be playing any mana negative ramp at all because you want as many creatures as possible to get played before raffine comes out. You'll want to line your curve up with your ramp, but not necessarily in any order, that's just what you'll want to do to have an effective deck. I think that looking at what kind of game actions you want to be making for your strategy in the first 1-4 turns is more critical to what kind of ramp you want in your deck (and your land count) than what your curve looks like. But ultimately all of these factors feed into each other, and It's why cEDH decks run 28 lands but you should probably run 38.

[@Wojtek36762]

Great discussion, with clear examples of places people are slamming their “ramp staples” without thinking. I used to auto include Cultivate in any green deck, but currently it’s only in a couple of landfall decks with 5 drop commanders (Maja and Yarok, Yarok draws a ton eventually but occasionally needs the early drops and fixing) and in Lucea Kane, where I haven’t bothered with improving the land or ramp package very much. But your points are good and suggest that Lucea might be better off with a Talisman. I think I’m gonna make that swap, it makes it easier to hit Lucea on turn 3, and a smaller tempo hit to just drop down in the midgame. That deck cares more about ramping and fixing on 2 than about the difference between land and artifact ramp, but not enough that I’m gonna buy a Birds of Paradise for it. Skyshroud Claim is nice for hitting the really big mana I eventually wanna see in that deck, but it might be better off as a talisman also. I’d rather ramp before Lucea comes down than waste a turn later, and the triome and one shock land don’t add that much.

[@MuteSpectre]

Instructions unclear, am now running Kodamas Reach instead

[@leonfriedemann9151]

I do favor cultivate and kodamas reach type of effects, but I usually play higher costed commanders. Totally agree, that if you are ramping to something smaller and are needed to have a fast start, 2mana ramp or 1 is the better answer for those decks... 👍🏼

[@BR4IN1N4J4R]

So I'll admit I usually default to Cultivate, but this is usually because it's a solid piece to rely on. My old Brenard deck ran it because Cultivate allowed me to usually get my golems/value creatures out ahead of curve and I use it in Miirym because my main goal is to get to Miirym as fast as possible then power out A LOT of Dragons.

[@sarahbuck2506]

For Meria, I pretty much cut all traditional ramp and focused on cards that let me look at my top card and play extra lands instead.

[@salubrioussnail]

I’ve been toying with the idea of adding more of these to my Meria deck. It doesn’t follow the equipments subtheme, but the strength of being able to know if my top card is a land, a protection spell, a removal spell, or something else is super useful. And also, the deck *always* floods.

[@SkyFire2112]

Some how you chose my girlfriend’s Commander (Toski) and my commander (Tovolar) and I 100% agree, I ripped all my non Mana dork ramp out of my werewolf deck. I had them in hand and I never wanted to cast them ever. My mana dorks also are werewolves so they help my game plan

[@supertrouperJC02]

I run tatyova and I like cultivate. It's 3 mana for a card, a life, a land in hand and on the field.

[@yonahtrachtman5534]

something I don't hear people talk about but I really think people should is playing with the cards you already have, i.e instead of buying a card(say one of the medallions that go for 2 to 8 bucks or toxic deluge which is at about 4 dollars right now) when you want to build a new deck but don't have another copy of looking through your collection for a replacement sometimes it won't be as good but sometimes you find something that fits the deck better than what you where going to go out and buy just cause it's a staple.

[@TheSeamonkeyBrigade]

I still stand by harrow as the best ramp spell it’s just too freakin good

[@jutton11]

For me personally, I run cards like cultivate not because I need them but because they're cheap and decent.

[@breadbread4226]

I recently built a Bess, Soul Nourisher deck, which is basically a green and white 1/1 creature tribal. Bess, and most of my card draw pieces are 3 mana spells. (this is also the most common mana value in the deck) My ramp spells are: 6 1/1 mana dorks, 4 of which cost 1, soul ring, a sorcery that let's me choose between getting a basic land from my deck into play or creating a 1/1 token and a 1/1 that creates treasures. I may have forgotten one, but that makes sense for my this deck.

[@isaacsantos6200]

Getting to 5 mana on turn 4 is nice because of the need to be able to protect your commander when your deck is reliant on having them on the field.

[@Aaron0000014]

The real answer is 12-15 for an average cmc deck (around 3.4) and adjust it a bit as you go lower or higher cmc. The least i run is 6 rocks in a tinybones deck at 2.66 cmc, since it just wants to hit 3 mana asap and then it doesn't actually need fast mana for plays after that