When (not) to Upgrade Your Decks

[@Ox7moron]

I had this experience with my Alesha, Who Smiles at Death deck. It went from being a small power reanimator deck to an inconsistent infinite combo deck. My playgroup started playing their most powerful decks against it. Late last year I powered the deck down and I have been having tons of fun ever since!

[@zywardz200]

This is actually the experience I am going through right now. I really love playing Alesha at a higher power level personally and so I might see what I can do to really push her to be more consistent at the higher power level (without being cEDH). I've done the power down process for a bunch of decks recently too though, way more fun table dynamics

[@OneTimeImp902]

I have the same relationship with my Alesha decks since it got released. Went from casual low power to high power high budget to cEDH back to optimized 100 USD budget. I've enjoyed myself a lot more on the budget list than any other because it's so consistent and fun to play and I'm not always focusing on entombing the same creature every game haha

[@real_overthinker]

Wow! I actually had the exact same thoughts about my Grenzo, Dungeon Warden deck. Adding more infinite combos to my deck only made it super inconsistent and relatively less satisfying to win with. I completely reworked the deck last week to focus on artifacts and cheating out high-value creatures, and it's been so much more satisfying to both win and just play with :)

[@testingbls]

Had similar experiences with Coram. Sometimes I kill people with Embercleave, sometimes he came out and got killed. I think I can build the deck better, but to what end? Haste one-shotting people in a casual game? Then struggling to finish off the game while the dead player sits and stares? 😂 Might end up making it as a high power deck, but I think it might be too janky against better decks.

[@allhailbolas]

The idea of 'choose a level you want to end up with and build towards that' rather than continually 'improving' a deck is an important concept when making proxies too. It helps you decide which cards should be in the desired vision of the deck, and aren't just generally good things that could be in the deck, so you keep a stable ceiling and avoid an arms race with whatever you decide to print.

[@vileluca]

Sheit you mean folks shouldnt just proxy Smothering Tithe, Rhystic Study, Vampiric Tutor and Cyc Rift into every deck simply because "theyre good"? No way.

[@sharktrap267]

@@vilelucaI mean you shouldn't be playing sol ring.

[@turtle_stew_Lukas]

@@sharktrap267Not playing sol ring is the way to go, It's actually quite a liberating experience. Once you throw off the shackles of the 1cmc ring, it becomes so easy cut any other card that you play just because it is generically good.

[@lambdalandis]

My play group just erratas Sol Ring to make 1 instead of two mana. Makes the card totally acceptable and you don’t need to take precons apart

[@keldone3186]

​@@sharktrap267 Omg! Trying to implement that in my proximity for Years! It's always the same argumentation with people

[@paulszki]

I'm subcribed to dozens of mtg/edh-channels but the only videos I watch immediately are from Snail. He's just so thoughtful and tackles the topic of edh so differently.

[@turtle_stew_Lukas]

Love it! A concept I find helpful is "fungrading" As magic players we're so accustomed to use improving decks synonymously with increasing power level. Instead, the focus for working decks should be to look at cards that don't feel fun to play and cut them with cards that make you exited to pick up your deck. Either you or other players react negatively when playing that card (farewell resetting the game too much, torment of hailfire, not being a fun wincon after you did it a few times, etc.). Or what cards will make you cackle like a maniac when you draw them, and play more of those. Sitting down and ask how I can "fungrade" my deck just creates a completely different mindset and prevents the endless powerspiral play-groups can fall into. If something is good but not fun cut it, while it might not make your deck more powerful it will improve the time you have playing with and against it.

[@user-co6ww2cm9k]

That is a really good way of looking at it thank you.

[@MrMarbles0Xecution]

obviously a Timmy player, but it's true, we should play for fun cards rather than boring optimization. I have an angel life gain deck, my playgroup was having issues with long games that never end lol. so i added a finisher combo to it, and it feels way too strong now. I'm not sure what to do now, ima try it a bit more before possibly reverting.

[@joachimpearson4892]

​@@MrMarbles0XecutionI don't think turtle is saying to stop focusing on optimisation and just play the fun cards. Optimisation IS fun, not boring - but you can choose to optimise your deck in a way that doesn't make it overpowered. And, you can also optimise it in a way that makes it way more powerful without making it way more miserable to play against, you just have to be conscious of the kind of changes you're making. In the case of your Angel life-gain deck, there is an inherent, awkward issue with life-gain in commander which is that it does prolong the game. You get more life, you live longer, people try to knock your life total down instead of killing each other, and the game keeps going on. Ask yourself how important life gain is to your deck strategy and/or identity - maybe you could make the deck more about having powerful angel beaters rather than gaining life. If your deck uses lifegain triggers to gain value, maybe you could also include a bunch of cards that require you to pay life to gain value, that way you'll still be getting all the lifegain triggers, but your life total won't be so hard for opponents to deal with.

[@MrMarbles0Xecution]

@@joachimpearson4892 i mean to say "boring-optimization" as one word. because there are ways to optimize which are uninteresting. such as when you simply run 15 counter spell and 15 stax cards simply because its strong to do so, without considering how boring it's going to be to play against the empty board of a land-locked opponent. sure, you won the game, but was the game fun and even worth playing? no. There are plenty of other things to try and do for an amusing game. TBH, dominating a match is boring. its more exciting to swing at my opponents creatures, unsure of what the outcome will be, and risk getting surprised by their flash enchantment or whatever. PS: I kept my life gain angel deck as it is, because I built other decks to fulfill my other deck desires. That deck has become a strong staple deck of mine. but I also have more offensive decks now for when i want to play faster or different style. I should mention i have aurelia the warleader now, so i literally built an angel beatdown deck just like you said lol

[@joachimpearson4892]

@@MrMarbles0Xecution dude hell yeah, Aurelia is sick, I fuckin love big slappin flyers in commander

[@robertomacetti7069]

coulnd't be me stuffing every tutor i cannot afford in an obeka deck because i had the very smart decision of choosing "cloning brothers yamazaki as much as i can" as my win condition

[@llamarama6976]

Thats such a funny way to use obkea im proud as an obeka player. One of my fav things to do is run lethal vapours in the deck. You can use obeka to effectively get one creature a turn while your opponents get none and often is just a 4 mana skip a opponents turn

[@robertomacetti7069]

@@llamarama6976 that's neat, I'll keep it in mind

[@robertomacetti7069]

Speaking of If they dare to destroy lethal vapors during your turn you can use obeka, skipping the turn is a cost right?

[@llamarama6976]

@@robertomacetti7069 im not 100% sure but i dont think it is. What with the zero mana symbol and then the : followed by the destroy after i think it costs nothing to activate and destroying it is the effect.

[@llamarama6976]

@@robertomacetti7069 which is a shame because it would be helarious to stifle the trigger if they activate it on their turn or use obeka on your own turn

[@piyh3962]

Thing I wish you said was the opportunity cost of that money. You can build pretty decent $50 decks which is the cost of one or two cards upgraded in a higher power deck.

[@testingbls]

Sure love buying a 10$ card that I will never draw for a deck that was already fun. 😂 Inspired by snail I tried to build a deck on a 25$ budget. That felt so much more rewarding!

[@bladeworxgg]

Recently, I've been discussing building a new deck with the players from my pod. We were weighing the costs and benefits of rebuilding an old deck I no longer enjoy playing, compared to building an entirely different deck. At some point we each ended up discussing upgrading decks we already own. Immediately after that started one of the guys said to me that I didn't need to upgrade my decks any further because "they're enough trouble to deal with already". I realized that at some point I had forgotten entirely to include the enjoyment of the people that I'm playing with in my decision making. "Regardless of whether or not this change will make my deck stronger, will the experience improve or suffer for both my playgroup and myself?" This seems like a valuable litmus test you could also perform whenever you're considering upgrading your decks. Hope this helps someone!

[@dragonknight46208]

I've found my greatest challenge in Magic is exactly something you've discussed in this video: powering up a deck without making it lose its identity/synergy pieces. I have a Feather deck and she's my pet deck, and it's definitely been hard to get it to a high power level without making it a generic staple fest.

[@chadjehebej2258]

You are the one KZbinr where im dropping everything that im doing when i see a new upload

[@deejayf69]

Same. This guy's a legend!

[@pauldyson8098]

Same. Nothing against the other content creators, but I can only watch so many tier list videos or Magic/WoTC/Hasbro drama videos. These video essays are thoughtful and intelligent.

[@2134stevie]

I recently realized that its cool seeing you deconstruct that thought. I was looking for pieces that were expensive and common rather than figuring out what I wanted to do with the deck. It really stunted my deckbuilding for a while.

[@SilentGe42]

The growth speed of the channel and the number of views and comments on the videos only a few hours after the release speaks for themselves, but let's translate it to: really unique channel with high quality topics/vids.

[@Controlqueen31]

An interesting topic. I agree with you on the cohesion part. I find it to be the more challenging part of deckbuilding. A lot of commanders can't simply be upgraded to some power levels because of their play patterns

[@alangonzalez6940]

Thanks for sharing your views on playing Mtg. I often find myself falling in the trap of feeling like I need to spend more money to have a better deck. It just slope and often leads to a lot of wasted money and obsessing over a game that should be fun. So listening to your way of building decks and keeping jt budget and fun is often refreshing to hear. I will do my best to keep to this way of building decks.

[@Eiden_Simply]

In my playgroup, we're super proxy friendly, so in a lot of situations, the only way to really regulate power level is through budget, and I've always found it weird that we don't tend to play the super popular, strong commanders, and this video sort of helped enlighten why, when there's a sort of lack in card quality you have to go to more specific, cohesive strategies instead, very interesting!

[@rainx381]

Brilliantly articulated. I've gone through the same thought process but I've learned from your narrative.

[@joshuajohnson2532]

Really great video! Makes me realize that I think about deckbuilding differently than some folks. When I build a deck, it’s done. I have very few decks that I make upgrades to. If a deck isn’t sparking joy and maybe feels like it needs to be upgraded, I just build a different deck.

[@orpheos9]

Banger video. Im tired of people who are playing casual commander and feeling like if they have the money, they "have to" play the One Ring/Cyclonic Rift/Rhystic Study/Dockside because they are staples and its not high power if they arent infinite combo-ing. I feel like there are so many commander content creators that say you have to play these cards or you are "nerfing" your deck. Just build your deck to the power level/play experience you want to play at.

[@joedoe7572]

And ban Sol Ring!

[@orpheos9]

@@joedoe7572 I would personally love that. But don’t think it’s ever happening. I was so amused with the latest command zone podcast where they talk about casual commander taboos that you shouldn’t play fast mana… except for Sol ring 🤦‍♂️

[@chimera0213]

@@joedoe7572 That would not happen anytime soon. It would be a tough chore to explain to all the new players who just got a precon "actually, one of the card in there is now banned. You will need to replace it." WotC would not want to go through that trouble.

[@kaiserherman7914]

Just now building a deck for a playgroup that my other decks surpased in powerlevel due to upgrades. There are so many cool card choices that would be bonkers but then I end up with something stupid powerfull again.

[@captainbadon5923]

My first EDH deck was cobbled together from three binders on the night to get me into a pod. I owned about ten of the cards. The budget was nothing. The commander was Thromok, the insatiable. Thanks for the jump scare. I feel personally called out. And thank you for sharing my personal 12 year journey through the format in less than ten minutes. Thromok is now Xenagos, and is hyper refined. He wins less now than he used to. Now, during gameplay, I look forward to raw dogging a turn 3 squee’s toy in Horobi, or the fabled turn one icatian moneychanger in felisa, or the chaos of a Celebr-8000 as captain Rex nebula goes sideways riding a solemn simulacrum into battle. Good video as usual 👍

[@sorin_markov]

As a diehard Feather fan, you can dump money into some expensive cards to make it better, but the things that truly make it good are generic fast mana

[@ericmittmann8827]

I'd say that pretty much also falls into "dump money into expensive cards" :D. Though, as a Feather player myself, I hace to agree. Probably even more true for Feather than a lot of other commanders.

[@DukeQuakem]

As a Feather fan as well I completely agree. A good Feather deck is like Boxing: a simple strategy, fast gameplay, and make each swing of her hit like a truck. Leave the fancy & expensive cards to the fools that dare to face her >:)

[@andrewspears8891]

I run Feather as a more spellslinger style deck with an obnoxious amount of flexible protection (and draw/scry).

[@power_SERG]

I have a lot of 3 and 4 cost mana rocks that I'm scared of adding to a deck because I fear that turn 4 is far too late to be wasting resources on rocks when I could be using it on enchantments, ECT...

[@sorin_markov]

@@andrewspears8891 I have that build as well. Guttersnipe effects and utility

[@peoplesoft2784]

Another idea you may want to consider for a video is how changing how you pilot a deck can have a larger impact on what choices you make and the general feel of the deck. An example is my Klauth deck built out of the precon. I used to include a lot more one mana and two mana ramp to get klauth out as fast as possible. I even bought a delighted halfling for the deck. What ended up happening is I would get my commander out 1-3 turns early, and then I would dump my hand out. Then I would be board wipes and then stuck with no way to recover. I then changed my ramp to be much more focused on three and four mana ramp, with a few explore effects. As well as adding a whole suite of card draw. Now I get my commander out later, but I now have the ability to redraw my hand and bounce back from mass removal.

[@theapexanomoly5354]

This is exactly what I needed to hear. I’ve been having trouble for the same reasons with my Klauth deck, and I agree that the game plan itself is what needed work rather than the strength of the cards.

[@quinnjohnson3075]

I had a similar experience with my Hydra deck, I removed a number of the stronger cards to depower the deck since it stopped being fun to play at the higher power level.

[@Milchdude]

Best EDH Channel on KZbin, thank you for your hard work 😉👍

[@Computer-STEM-NERD-903]

Thank you SOOO much… You are awesome, for articulating these thoughts through data analytics and cost optimization…

[@dnl_lcknr690]

I recently got back into magic after nearly 10 years. One of the first things I did was overhaul my first EDH deck, removing big flashy cards I spent a lot of money on as a kid in favour of cheaper more cohesive options and I can honestly say its made the deck so much more enjoyable to play.

[@calltothekindred1147]

I honestly clicked on this video because I saw feather in the thumbnail. Since she was first spoiled I wanted to build a deck around her. I started off with all the cantrips and then I tried to synergize with other cards as well. I set up control, protection, and other ways to help me when. (Single Combat was made for this deck /srs). The deck will still struggle if feather has to come back from the command zone too often. There is a part of me that could find even more ways to prevent this, but at the same time it feels like a natural flow to the deck. When you were talking about themes I just think of my baby my 4 color wall deck. What annoys me the most about that deck is not that it is very weak to board wipes, but I got lucky with my pulls and most of my mana base I did not have to pay for and certainly not a current prices. Finding cards to add and cut in that deck is very difficult due to the nature of the deck itself. There are times I want to "upgrade", but it is hard to pick what to cut since it is also a bunch of my "ooo shiny" cards too lol. This video will help me out in the current deck I am tinkering with

[@badgeronriodz6792]

Just wanted to say that I've been loving your deck building theory videos. It's definitely things I've been taking on board with my meme decks alongside my budget ($25 budget) to my more expensive decks. Thank you ❤

[@isaacsantos6200]

In regards to bottle necks: 1. If your deck relies on your commander and you're frequently losing due to them getting removed, you need to play more protection 2. If you're losing due to the deployment of specific hate effects (vandal blast, bojuka bog, etc) you are either overcommitting or not running enough interaction to stop those effects

[@Adrianovaz2007]

That's his point tho, overcommiting to dodge those situations dilutes the deck and makes it less consistent. Unless you're ging for broke and doing both while raising consitency at the same time, which normally requires overly expensive cards.

[@isaacsantos6200]

@@Adrianovaz2007 It only dilutes the deck if you're playing low impact cards or are missing card draw. Lacking access to resources in your deck doesn't mean having resources is bad, it means you need better ways to acquire them

[@isaacsantos6200]

@@Adrianovaz2007 And that is plenty doable without $40-50 cards, it just takes more thought in the deck building process

[@PBOZAI]

Was just looking at getting into commander and specifically looking at feather, and was concerned how every decklist seemed to contain 20+ $100 a piece cards. Now I know its just cEDH trying to compensate. Thanks for the warning!

[@Thomas-vn6cr]

Finally someone said it. Higher power is a curse, not a good thing.

[@Schnaqer]

depends on what you are looking for in a game of commander

[@V2ULTRAKill]

No Higher power without purpose is a curse my ass sitting in cEDH is blessed The local idiot arms racing into an inconsistent pubstomp list is cursed

[@binch6291]

The flip side I’ve found if you want to play high power at less pushed tables is to run high powered and greedy cards in a deck that doesn’t really offer wincon support with them. I put together a non-planeswalker Pramikon control deck that I almost exclusively played during games where participants weren’t sober. I had it packed with a ton of board control pieces, fog effects, group hug creature generators. and combat amplifiers like Avatar of Slaughter that all made the board state chaotic and difficult to kill me, but I didn’t have any goals for actually winning the game with the deck. I think I brought it home one match out of the seven I played with it just because everyone whittled each other down so much, but my typical role with the deck was to pull up and cause mayhem by punching above everyone else’s weight until I got smote.

[@gorethrax8348]

as a feather lover i felt called out, granted i only "upgrade" my one mana instants with different ones over time.

[@laeclorentzen6111]

If you get feather and a protection spell in hand you can swing for however much unblockable damage you can pump to every turn, drawing 2-3 cards from cantrips, and making it impossible to remove feather since you can just give it protection from anything in response, unless they kill it by two different methods in one turn or you tap out. It's high power, but it is budget for sure.

[@EmbeJuicemazzopazzo]

I got so much better at deckbuilding and playing after watching your videos

[@Navak_]

Somehow after making over 30 commander decks I have yet to fall in love with one to the point where I want to commit to it and trick it out.

[@wf4860]

I don’t play magic, but your view of the game is very useful in creating fun situations in games I do play

[@ScaredHelmet]

?????

[@Wyrm7774]

This is all very good advice. I started with an Ur-Dragon precon a friend gave me and upgraded it to the point where it was winning most games in my playgroup and at my lgs. It got to the point where everyone was bored of it so I shelved it for a while. Now its a Miirym deck that only runs the dnd dragons and dragon related cardss like draconic lore and reckless endeavor. Its much more random, fun, and I don't feel terrible for playing it

[@oneofthosebeebles]

Totally agree EDH players focus too much on card quality. It’s like trying to determine how good a dish tastes by rating the quality of the ingredients. Sure, there’s a correlation, but you can still treat quality produce badly and end up with a poor dish, or create super tasty ones with mediocre ingredients if you know what you are doing. In the end: the proof of the pudding is in the eating. The power of a deck is ultimately determined by how it performs at the table.

[@Duarte_GB]

Id like to recount my current experience with this. So I'm a pretty frugal person so every deck I'd make would be a budget deck. The problem I used to have is that I would get completely destroyed (most times) cause I'm playing budget. So I set upon making a new deck and this time not budged it too much. I think the mey thing is focusing first on investments that either are a staple or directly solve issues your deck has. For example my imoti deck has the issue of emoti getting removed, but since she cascades into ramp she tends to give me mana advantage regardless. The solution I found for that is to invest in good lategame boss monsters that can get in early due to my ramp and imoti to shift my oponnents focus away from my commander, if the card goes on the field and my oponenets dont go "I have to kill that or ot will be a problem" then its not worth investing in. So I advise people to take a similar approach and worri about your gameplan first before the "broken" cards that might help the deck sometimes (for example in imoti me sloting something that is based on cascades even though the issue is imoti getting instant targeted not winning once she sticks)

[@deezboyeed6764]

Everyone of these videos make me relise how lucky i am with my table. We all make decks at different levels but we also all have decks we constantly want to improve (within reason)

[@MagicManAleister]

I came back into the game around New Capenna (April 2022). Back in 2016, we played EDH but nothing was as strong as what they put out now (consistently as strong anyway, hey Commander wasn't the focus). When I came back I picked up a precon, and eventually rebuilt my old Edgar Markov deck. Not realizing that cEDH was a thing, I sat in on Friday night magic, at cEDH tables. I was under the assumption that combo/fast play was THE game now. I spent time and money on tutors, combo pieces, etc only to fall short to Thoracle or food chain combos. It took roughly 6 months to get a full feel for the game as it is now. I found that aiming for a level for that deck and sticking to it worked out. Instead of 5 tutors and an infinite combo jammed in sideways per the colors of the deck, I put in high synergy cards that promoted the overall strategy for the designated level it was aiming for. 👍

[@iokcs]

@3:38 I'm noticing this in my playgroup and I just wanna play jank sometimes but everyone is very sweaty for some reason 😢

[@Lucretzia]

This a fun visual explanation for the law of diminishing returns

[@barrychan3722]

Great video. I used to have a Soul of Windgrace deck that I really enjoy playing. It is low - mid power and easy to pilot. One day, I started putting more powerful cards in the deck, namely, field of the dead, Scapeshift, Vesuva, fetch lands, etc. Then, I hate playing this deck. Too many triggers, keep shuffling 3 - 4 times in one turn, doing the same thing again and again...

[@schoeii]

Just stumbled across you channel and so glad I did as a new magic player your content is just the best. Thank you

[@DetroitTyler]

In my experience, what makes a deck truly tuned is when you have a goal for it. And you can play that way regardless of what your opponent's have in store. So a commander for 4+ mana, you want some level of insulation from counter spells, you want some boardwipe protections, you might want hexproof or indestructable enablers. Being able to actually play your deck is very important and part of all deck building in commander should be on the pre commander turns and the cast turn. I think too many want to pop off and go infinite after the cast instead of focusing on insuring the cast and establishing and durable board presence. Setting the table is an overlooked aspect and if you run any sort of aggro based commander it's the most important.

[@mixedupbat]

I really like your vision of the game. Probably because I share this vision 🤷

[@AntsYT]

My Tergrid deck was the first deck I built when I was introduced to Commander and I’ve had this same issue. At first, it was a fun low power deck, I could steal people’s stuff and advance my board. The more money I threw at it the more consistent and powerful the deck became, which meant constant removal on my commander. I don’t play the deck any more as it’s not fun to play as I’m always targeted. Sometimes, more powerful upgrades isn’t the answer. I love the complexity of Commander.

[@toddpacker1015]

If you put a random mono black commander you will have a good time. Tergrid is automatic threat before the game even starts.

[@bswtsp21]

So long as the deck works around your playgroup, I think that’s the goal.

[@SamuelHappyMan]

3:46 Locus of Rage mentioned RAAAA My favorite commander rn lmao

[@lucyfleet7402]

This video is stellar. One thing I would have added is decks are often created in response to the pods they play in For example, I run an Alela, Cunning Conqeror Fae Tribal deck whose goals for surviving in a 4 player game is to dissuade/goad the rest of the table to fight each other, and to flash out my board at the ends of peoples turns to have mana free. Once the table is down to a 1v1, I rely on them being on average a little beaten up from my first goal so my tribal buffs and game ending drops can win the game for me. If someone relies on non combat to win, the deck is useless However, I made the deck because my pod usually consists of a Timmy and two battlecruiser players, so goad and things like illusionists Gambit are excellent cards to keep me alive and run my gameplan in that context. If I did make a more general, more controlling dimir list, they would just hate playing against it since they all like swinging with combat, so hence I run Alela, a control deck but still combat'y enough to have fun

[@samdolan7954]

instantly dropped everything when i seen the notification. you are genuinely one of the best magic youtubers at the moment and i cannot wait to see what else you come out with!

[@devlinmee2974]

Good video. Another thing to note is that there are only so many ways to upgrade 'build-around-commanders' that do not include generic upgrades. Consider Zurgo and Ojutai from the march of the machines, who rewards with playing dragons with enter the battlefield effects and battles. There are only so many battles that are considered good such as Invasion of Tarkir, and there's even less support for battles. Moreover, the etbs effects of dragons, primarily in red are often damage or something similar. Until they print more support for this deck, right now kinda generic Jeskai ETBs.

[@LizardKing1470]

Cohesion and quality aka synergy and power. I like to focus on synergy and try to find powerful synergies whether the card is powerful or just fits really well.

[@Elcelisto]

My first EDH deck that I put time and effort into was an upgraded Amalia deck, I had a ton of vampire upgrades (and got lucky in terms of card pulls such as Throne and Grave Pact) and what I found by trying ot power it up was that my play group found it to be oppressive to play against and thus - all three opponents quickly focused me down before I could get the ball rolling. The ball really dropped on how bad this deck can get when against this level at the play group when I on my various travels came across a half price Edgar Markov and switched commanders to Edgar, the early board state quickly picked up on people's radar and everyone ran more board wipes to deal with it. In trying to tune the deck, I brought a booster box of midnight hunt (I'm a card opening addict don't hate) and pulled Wilhelt and Katilda - Both I thought could make interesting commanders when combined with the other cards that I own. The Katilda deck and Wilhelt decks are now my mid-level decks which I put more emphasis on their core play style than the Edgar deck. The Edgar deck definitely would be a deck I'd turn upto if I didn't know the power level to get a vibe for any new groups but Katilda and Wilhelt are decks designed for the play group to not be too oppressive but also enable the decks to do it's own thing and have interactions to match.

[@Elcelisto]

Sorry I meant Clavileño not Amalia ;_;

[@Momo_pstat4]

I think ive hit that point in understanding that i may have made the same mistake. I took my first commander Chishiro the Shattered Blade, and pushed its power to the absolute limit. It tries to be gruul voltron and win with infinite combat steps or infinite creatures… but it kinda just sits there and doesnt do much without powerhouse staples doing the main work. I think it was a cedh podcast that said it, but commanders for high power have to do 1 or more of the following to really do anything of value: card advantage, mana production, win con, big body for cheap, or resource denial. And chishiro kinda doesnt fall into any of these, meaning the staples of the deck like the one ring or mana crypts have to do all the heavy lifting here. Ive thought about scrapping the deck, but ive also put so much time, money and resources into making this deck as good as it possibly can be.

[@martinithechobit]

I agree. Specially when now we got so much "commander cards" in the last few years.

[@bryankopkin6869]

I really appreciate the topics that you cover in your videos. Keep up the great work man :)

[@josephbig-canoe6174]

This is how i felt with Baba Lasaga,she has a really fun low-mid power play pattern/build. But my play group is normally on the higher end side so i tried upgrading baba and the more i had “upgraded” her and changed her around to be “stronger” my interest with the deck just lowered and lowered

[@Pastel_Pat]

My outlook is just because a deck runs black doesn’t mean I have to include torment of hail fire if it’s a voltron deck. It’s not a bad card to add by any means, but it’s not the point of the deck. Commander is a format that tends to revolve around your commander. There’s a reason I chose my commander and most of the time it’s not because of the color, that’s a nice addition

[@Crazedwaffledevourer]

This video is relevant to me and I like the presentation, I just built an animar eldrazi deck and decided to leave it at the power level its at since it's a fun little deck that can consistently play a titan. But if I upgrade it into a fun little deck that consistently plays 8 big eldrazi a turn the fun police are gonna come knocking, and Zhulodok would be better prepared to answer their questions so I'll make a zhulodok deck instead of upgrading animar.

[@marlo3536]

This is more or less the situation im with with my Hakbal the Surging Soul deck. I love merfolk, the deck is really fun and its got a clean combat based gameplan. Its just the cards I need to give it that little extra oomph it needs to nab wins with my playgroup cost too much. The deck hit its plateau, and while I want to make it better its not necessarily worth it. Myrrim Sentinel Wyrm has the opposite issue. Its too strong for my table and while I love it to bits I cant upgrade it further without being asked to stop playing it. I cant find it in me to downgrade it so for now its my "oh someone pulled out the busted decks" option

[@joshuatran6526]

I began with a pod that played Yuriko, Kenko, and Jhoira. Originally it was low budget, casual fun, but since we are all yugioh players the need for efficiency kept pushing us to upgrade. Thankfully all of these decks were scaleable so we were able to keep up as the ceiling gets pushed faster and faster

[@ralonnetaph6450]

So you literally did an irl season 2, 3, 4, 5 powercreep scale lmao

[@agred1519]

I have a very nice deck for Yarok. I utilize the graveyard since most of the creatures enter the battlefield to mill. Instead of using Reanimate instants or sorceries, I use ETB cards like Animate Dead and Necromancy. With those changes, my game plan has gained more consistency. They key part is that I also don't mind if my graveyard is exiled because my deck, at its core, is still an ETB deck, not a graveyard deck.

[@peoplesoft2784]

Also another note about a deck that fulfills exactly what you are talking about is the Convoke precon from March of the machine. If you decide to run a bunch of convoke spells with some cheep token production and a few engine support pieces, you’ll have a very tight linear deck that increases with power the more creatures you have. With of course potential for a late game infinite combo. You can also build to allow the commander Kasla to come out on turn 3 pretty consistently if you include a lot of one drops and 2 for 2 cards. The issue is at higher power tables you are entirely dependent upon finding one of your key engine pieces and that just can’t always be guaranteed. Also in a meta where board wipes are more common at higher power tables, (my personal playgroup’s best decks are able to handle and bounce back after several board wipes) the deck dies, due to such a heavy focus on board presence. Alternatively you can switch commanders for token production, but card draw still suffers. I’m still experimenting with a build that can work in my playgroup, but I suspect I’ll either “power” it down and only run it in low power tables, or do what everyone does when trying to make a unsupported archetype work. Tutors and expensive cards.

[@Sillimant_]

I have a pauper zoyowa deck, and I find it extremely fun. I'm already triggering the end step effect very consistently, so it feels like the logarithmic kind of deck. Yes, I _could_ play all the damage increasers, but then that's at the cost of the reliable end step trigger. It's just much more funny to just be a mild nuisance. Maybe I'll go with a build around Phyresis to force people to tear their hands and boards apart

[@mopanda81]

Two important notes: you can always arrange or playtest any combination of cards you want on your online deckbuilder of choice (moxfield, archidekt etc all have solitaire play modes), second you don't have to spend money for cards you don't know if you'll like when you can proxy them!

[@DogPerson361]

I think Feather is a good example on one hand but also bad on the other. You can define upgrade in terms of power or in terms of additional options. She is defined by the low cmc spells like you said but those are just tools in the toolbox. New sets come with different versions of old spells making them modal or straight up better (think added investigate or whatever). Also some new spells are an interesting side-grade to spells you have in the deck. Galadriel's Dismissal is an amazing card in feather but she is an "old" commander therefore the card is a viable upgrade in many decks.

[@BillNyeTheBountyGuy]

One thing not mentioned is that metas, rules, and bans change over time. I hitched my wagon to a very expensive five color 'Golos God Storm' deck I had been tuning for the larger half of a decade. When Golos got banned, I understood why, but man did it sting to take it apart. Hitch your wagon to decks you think can weather changes while staying fun for you.

[@alexthesteele]

Soraya the Falconer is the patron saint of decks with HARD power level ceiling

[@justinmorsch3208]

This is why I built my 3 main decks at different power levels: scorpion god aristocrat - 6 Faldorn - 7 Brago - 8 I’ve focused on making the decks more cohesive, but Brago is inherently stronger so I keep that as my higher powered deck (more interaction, removal, board presence, etc) whereas scorpion god is way more fun but much less powerful. Keep mid powered decks mid power, build powerful commanders as powerful decks so you can match your decks to what other people are playing. Having multiple power level decks allows you to enjoy all ranges of gameplay and avoids the arms race conundrum!

[@_DIFH_]

This is actually a thing I went through with Octavia. Specifically, upgrading Ben Wheelers version with 8 lands, aka the only mana producing lands are 8 Islands. Some mdfc, but whatever. tl;dr Aggressively cantrip, fill grave, drop the big gal with limiting mana. This concept didn't change. Out the gate it's clear what issue the deck would/still face, but turning to higher power and applying some philosophy wiggle makes the gimmick less intrusive; adding fetches, and most of the fast mana pieces that basically function as missing land drops, while also synergizing with the secret commander Emry. I could have left it with slow stuff like Looters, numerous mdfcs and have durdly turns and worse mulligans, but I wanted to make the theme less of a liability while still leaning into it as a labor of love. I can't in good faith call this low power like the original version could have, but I prefer it this way.

[@Diamior]

I lately did the opposite. I jumped back into magic after 4year break, and decided to build a feather and a Magda deck. I started with the most Powerful version I could have, and then I cut the cost because playing magic can be damn expensive. I'm now satisfied with my 30€ and 60€ builds

[@Arvaniz]

Ooh... this topic comes perfectly for me at this time, since I'm evolving/changing my approach at deckbuilding. It started when Urza, Lord High Artificer came out, and I told my wife I'd love to build it (we play a lot of 1v1 somewhat high-power casual EDH, her favorite deck is the Ur-Dragon). She instantly said she'd DIVORCE me if I build Urza. Haha. But I love the card and the character, for all its history and lore in Magic. I bought a copy just six months ago, and to be able to play it with her, I promised I would only use cards under 2 bucks, to make it a "fair" EDH deck (with an inherently busted commander). That budget constriction automatically ruled out all the typical combos used in its cEDH version. She didn't approve... until she saw it built. Full of jank and crappy (low-CMC) artifacts. I loved it. I love all the janky artifacts. All those CMC 0 shields (Accorder's, Cathar's, etc.), friggin' Glasses of Urza (for the theme), Fountain of Youth (!!) All crap turned into Mox Sapphires thanks to Urza's broken ability. I later built the expensive version of Urza with all the whistles... it was boring as hell. So I returned to Urza, High Janklord. I love the restriction and how it plays differently, and that it makes a badly designed card (Urza itself) into a viable commander without hurting everybody else. Here's the list: tappedout.net/mtg-decks/urza-high-janklord/

[@cass8163]

I built a Vadrik spellslinger deck that, even without a high budget, was TOTALLY inappropriate for casual commander pods. I had fallen in love with how the commander took these terrible, almost unplayable combat tricks and turned them into extremely broken recursive rituals and pump spells. That said, the deck was WAY too strong for casual play. This $50-$60 deck was consistently storming off on like, turn five to six. Faced with the prospect of either abandoning the deck or trying to make it fit into a higher level of play, I chose to start upgrading it. It's now easily the most expensive deck I own, at around $1600, and basically a tier 2 CEDH deck. I can only play it at high power level tables, but it's incredibly fun in that setting. I do have some friends who play at that power level, so it's nice to have at least one solid deck that can hold its own at their table.

[@Schwenne1994]

I personally always follow the philosophy of "if I am having the fun I want to have with a deck, there is no need to upgrade". I have an urdragon deck, that plays the dragons I like and is good at getting them out in ways I enjoy. I could make it better, faster, win more, but then the cards I love about this deck would have to go. So I don't upgrade it like ever. It's stayed the same for around 4 years now.

[@krugz_]

I have encountered this Cohesion vs Quality problem when upgrading my Unctus deck. The goal is to have Kelpie Guide and another untapper to untap each other and abuse Unctus' loot ability. But drawing/discarding can only get you so far especially true if you only have 2-3 cards in hand. Free counterspells that requires you to pitch extra cards from your hand such as FoW, FoN, Misdirection, and Mindbreak Trap are counter-intuitive to what Unctus wants to do so I purposely shy away from them. Interestingly, Gush and Thwart are ironically the best cards in this deck. Their supposed punishment through bouncing Islands back to your hand actually helps leverage your looting game plan.

[@keldone3186]

As always you give great thought input

[@daviddoorbell2909]

I am stilla noob edh player and I've stumbled into the trap of trying to upgrade a precon to be able to compete against people with high power deck. I have to accept its bottleneck, like you said, and be in peace with it. Thank you for this video!

[@josiahclarke3535]

I think the issue with precons is that they tend to not focus well on a specific strategy. It makes new players think that upgrading them is just a matter of getting more generic big stomps guys or another board wipe; instead of realizing that the best way to enhance most of them is to find what aspect of the commander interests you the most, then focusing on it.

[@Drakshl]

I think part of the issue with upgrading is the sheer number of cards that, strictly speaking, most non hyper streamlined decks just "should" be playing due to the way commander works. By "should" I mean to say that your deck would just be more powerful if you cut your worst "similar" card for this. Bedt example right now is probably one ring, you can probably pretty safely put the one ring into your deck before you have chosen a commander, and replacing your worsr 3-5 drop (particularly if its a utility artifact of some kind) with a copy of the one ring will just make your deck more powerful. It's quite human to want to improve things and make them more efficient, and lots of games and all other magic formats feed into this, so when a player sees an expensive but very good card like the one ring it feels like something they "ought" to include in their deck. The issue is that there are so many of these cards which are epsmwsive but just clearly upgrades that the "top end" budget for most commander decks is always going to be crazy. Are you running creatures in a significant way and in green? Play Geas Craddle. Do you want to play counter spells? Probably should play force of negation. Probably should run all relevant original dual lands and all relevant fetches. I don't know TOO much about the commander meta but I imagine Sheoldred the apocalypse should get into every genericky midrange deck that's heavily in black. Commanders ban list is just so small that at the end of the day your deck probably has a crazy number of "auto include" upgrades which drive the price up unreasonably unless you self moderate the power of your deck

[@Raghetiel]

Heya! Can you please talk about commander protection, like Mithril coat or swiftfoot boots? I find myself heavily biased towards protection pieces, the the point, that Ascetism is my favorite card. And that makes my decks less synergistic. Edit: Also, I'm really interested to see your glissa battle cruiser deck

[@fartface8918]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/j4nTlWCsmLupaJYsi=2WUVxh8tQFb8Hcoj

[@jacobesterson]

Nobody likes being trapped into the cycle of constantly paying for an ever increasing commander tax because you're up against multiple decks with heavy removal. It's why I either pick a commander that can bypass the tax in some way, pick a commander that has a low CMC, or put multiple strong protection pieces into the deck.

[@Raghetiel]

@@jacobesterson low cmc doesn't help. I once played Hapathra, 2cmc creature, for 12

[@johannamegido8465]

@@Raghetiel if this game isn't an outlier than the issue is that you're not closing out fast enough, not that your commander is getting hated off the board.

[@Raghetiel]

@@johannamegido8465 but what if deck built around your commander? And commander games are suppose to be somewhat slow, with exception of cedh

[@peoplesoft2784]

Just looking at the title alone and I agree. Feather should be like a 20 dollar deck at most. All you need is some pump spells and a few cantrips. The most expensive part would be the mana base. Of course I switched mine to a flicker build since Feather keeps disappointing me, but it’s a wonderful high power deck

[@joedoe7572]

I love Feather Blink! My friend has one, and I routinely borrow it

[@Aldrnari956]

Good video and analysis. I’ve been playing MtG on and off since the 90s, but have pretty consistently played since jumping in again in 2017. Feather was a great example of that diminishing returns on investment. I made a list for Feather the moment she was spoiled for War of the Spark, and it weighed in at around $25. I upgraded her a ton and ended up with a $500 list for over the next couple of months, and it honestly didn’t perform THAT much better than the budget list. Sure, it had faster mana and much better voltron cards love Sword of Feast and Famine, but the core set of combat tricks and cantrips didn’t change. So, the deck’s improvements tapered off after each upgrade. At this point, I’ve built decks for EDH that range from jank to cEDH, and now I’m more interested in having fun than I am in winning. Don’t get me wrong, I want to win, but it isn’t the first thing I think of when I build most decks. Now, i focus on the synergy I want to have fun with, but if I need a strong deck I’ll start the deck list with a core package of powerful interaction and ramp before adding the synergy.

[@SwedeRacerDC]

I find that I always make edits to my decks, but it's usually because I want to try things out, not improve it. Unless I built a flawed deck one way or another and realize it's consistently falling short. Then my edits are to improve it, but usually I just like to keep the deck fresh. Or I do it to downgrade it's power level or just make it more fun to play against. Having winter orb in my slivers deck since they all tap for mana early on was very powerful, but not very fun. If there wasn't an immediate answer, my opponents were miserable. So I locked it up and threw away the key

[@naiustheyetti]

Damn, not my favorite commander getting on the thumbnail.

[@chaninakosovske6567]

My friend group has an unwritten rule of no full graveyard exiling, stuff that exiles a couple incidentally are fine and good, but we each play too much graveyard stuff, so if any of us start running real graveyard hate, the rest will too.

[@mayorexcalibur1282]

Thromak my love in the first minute

[@PlebCentre]

trying to make a low/mid power omnath locus of creation deck, and there's a hilarious point where running 90% of the decent elemental/landfall package just tears the deck into high power, and idk how to keep a very high power commander in a lower power level deck without it being a beatstick/value engine.

[@supervillianspotlight]

I ran into this with my first commander deck, sidisi brood tyrant. It went from, zombie tribal, to reanimator, to foodchain and labman/thassa combo. I just got really really bored after awhile. At that level of effeciency why even play that commander to begin with, that`s when i powered it back down to a point where i was happy with, zombies and reanimating timmy threats.

[@adamxue6096]

I feel like this is also a common thing to happen when everyone with their decks starts to do arms racing with each other, causing a less enjoyable experience for everyone involved. In general I feel like Mana base is the one thing where if you are upgrading a deck, that's where the money should go to, if ofc, you are not gonna use proxies. Arguably I think proxying mana base is good, it's not really fun to force people to dump money or run a really mediocre mana base that just slows the game down I definitely look forward to how you see Pet cards Since I stuff a lot of my pet cards into a very special commander deck I built, and in general I love the charm of running pet cards, but they def makes deck building harder by a pretty far mile

[@prrplex5594]

The number one thing that improved my deck building and fun was using proxy cards. Now I can build decks with creative freedom to fail and not feel bad, and still have beer money on game night. I don't have to think about upgrading anymore, just updating.

[@11epicnoob]

Wasn't sure if i should upgrade my Ovika deck by adding a Mizzix Mastery, but i was unsure what to replace... now idk if i should upgrade it any more, period

[@tarmotaipale5704]

In constructed, putting more powerful cards in a vacuum into your deck can even weaken your deck. There's a good reason why Pioneer Wizard Burn costs less than 100$ and why Fable of the Mirror-Breaker is not played in Izzet Phoenix. So maybe that could transfer into commander as well, meaning the "upgrade" sometimes truly weakens the deck due to lost synergy or tempo, not merely being inefficient at increasing power?

[@GazloweMiaw]

I feel sooo call out hahahahaha. But I literally understand that after all the process of ultra optimizing. To ultra optimize a Rakdos, Lord of Riot deck help me understand what I like about board game in general, but the end result is not what I espected and desire. I guess it is not the destination that matter but the journey hahahah.

[@TylerBaldis-mp3ze]

I've got a belakor the dark master deck that's a little above precon level, and I'm perfectly content with that. I get to be the big bad evil deck during the precon round 😈

[@Kujisoba]

Budget decks are my favorite, i have a few 50$ lists that i cycle through at my lgs. My newest is hylda of the icy crown at 80$ it is extremely good in medium to higher power pods.

[@monomanamaniac]

My highest powered deck is a Galea Kindler of hope Voltron equipment deck. I will happily pull it out against anyone. In my defense, I got most of the stuff for it at rock bottom prices (we're talking like $400 spent and it's worth $1700+), and the deck needs a lot of very specific things in order to work well that are not cheap. If you're not up for that I have a mid powered ezuri claw of progress or the locust God I could pull out. If you want my wife to play however, her only deck is Tergrid lol.

[@jzanedesign]

found it easier to add cards to a deck by completely disassembling it and then rebuilding it with the cards I wanted to add. I always find it much harder to add cards to a deck that already working

[@Theanthill216]

Any good deck builder can make an edh deck, whether casual or higher power, for at most $100 (and thats being forgiving to decks beyond 3 colors for manabase). $50 can make solid edh decks; anyone always “needing to upgrade”, play cedh staple cards, or force powerful proxies into a casual format just baffle me though honestly. Wheres the fun in playing the best commanders, 2 card combos, extra turns, stax…..when there are so many cool janky legends and a place to play all the cards not good enough for 60 card formats.

[@gianglai7346]

Can't wait for the pet cards video