Sam Bankman-Fried Sent Himself to Prison (feat. Elizabeth Lopatto) - Episode 142

Cas Piancey and ‪@bennettftomlin‬ are joined by Elizabeth Lopatto of the Verge to discuss Sam Bankman-Fried's conviction.
This video was recorded on November 6th, 2023.
Read more: cryptocriticscorner.com/2023/...
Additional episodes mentioned in this episode:
KZbin playlist of videos about Sam Bankman-Fried Trial
• Sam Bankman-Fried on T...
KZbin playlist of videos about FTX, Alameda Research, and Sam Bankman-Fried
• FTX, Alameda Research,...
Episode 140 - Sam Bankman-Fried’s Trial is Going Great (feat. Molly White)
• Sam Bankman-Fried's Tr...
Episode 139 - It’s so over: Sam Bankman-Fried testifies (feat. Sam Kessler)
• It's so over: Sam Bank...
Episode 135 - Caroline Ellison Describes Sam Bankman-Fried's Crimes (feat. Nikhilesh De)
• Caroline Ellison Descr...
Episode 130 - Sam Bankman-Fried’s parents were in on it
• Were SBF's parents in ...
Episode 66 - The Career Criminal Conspiracies of Cas Piancey
• The Career Criminal Co...
Episode 115 - The Whistleblower Who Exposed WorldCom (feat. Cynthia Cooper and Daren Firestone)
• The $11 Billion WorldC...
Episode 15 - Revisiting Enron with David Z. Morris
• Revisiting Enron with ...
Episode 124 - Effective Altruism: Buy an island nation and feel moral
• Effective Altruism: Mo...
Episode 42 - Elizabeth Holmes, Theranos, and the Future of VC (Feat. Elizabeth Lopatto)
• Elizabeth Holmes, Ther...
Episode 138 - Tweets, Trolls, and Superstars in the Sam Bankman-Fried Trial (feat. Katie Baker)
• Inside Sam Bankman-Fri...
Episode 137 - SBF asked FTX’s lawyer to make up excuses for missing money (feat. Danny Nelson)
• Sam Bankman-Fried aske...
Episode 133 - Did Sam Bankman-Fried’s Defense Blow It? (feat. David Z. Morris)
• Did Sam Bankman-Fried'...
Additional resources:
Sam Bankman-Fried gambled on a trial and his parents lost
www.theverge.com/2023/11/2/23...
Elizabeth Lopatto's Coverage at The Verge
www.theverge.com/authors/eliz...
Cas' review of Going Infinite
protos.com/going-infinite-is-...
Protos coverage of the trial
protos.com/sbftrial/
Other places to find Crypto Critics' Corner
Website: cryptocriticscorner.com/
Discord: / discord
Bluesky: bsky.app/profile/cryptocritic...
Mastodon: mstdn.social/@CryptoCriticPod
Twitter: / cryptocriticpod
Instagram: / cryptocriticpod
TikTok: vm.tiktok.com/TTPdPN2hK9/
Bennett's KZbin: ‪@bennettftomlin‬
Bennett's D&D KZbin: ‪@BTDND‬
Bennett's BlueSky: bsky.app/profile/bft.wtf
Cas' BlueSky: bsky.app/profile/caspiancey.b...
Bennett's Mastodon: mstdn.social/@bennetttomlin
Bennett's Twitter: / bennetttomlin
Cas' Twitter: / caspiancey
Bennett's Newsletter: TheFUDLetter.com/
Cas' Blog: / thecaspiancey
Bennett's Blog: bennettftomlin.com/
Timestamps:
#crypto #cryptocurrency #podcasts #listenable #ftx #alamedaresearch #sbf #sambankmanfried

[@hannahbalsdon7405]

"The man that hath no music in himself, nor is not moved with concord of sweet sounds, is fit for treason, stratagem and spoils. The motions of his spirit are as dull as night and his affections as dark as Erebus. Let no such man be trusted." No wonder SBF doesn't like Shakespeare; the playwright called him out over 400 years ago 😂

[@newhorizon4066]

"SBF doesn't like Shakespeare" - what a loss! Psychopaths exist since the dawn of man so let's not get hifalutin here. I'm sure Socrates, Ptolemy and even Christ (if you believe there's one) also had a word or two regarding SBF kind of species. "Shakespearean" is a code word the journalistic trade of our era like to use in cases where there are generational conflict in families (children vs parents, grandparents, siblings among themselves, etc.) LIke the majority of us, they can't quote "ShakespearE (sorry, almost forgot the "E" there)" but love to use that word because that would get folks to shut up.- for aforementioned reason.

[@juliametcalf2660]

If you treated your friends like Scam treated his friends....buying them with ridiculous goodies while using them like bobble headed NPCs ....thought it was not surprising his "besties" turned on the arrogant fool

[@Candiecane908]

He ruined people’s lives. He needs to go to jail for a long time.

[@TheDavidlloydjones]

Modulo the fact that crypto "investors" are basically leeches looking for a good one cheap or free.

[@frevazz3364]

It's hard to feel sorry for the parents when they were deeply involved in this and siphoned money themselves. Did Barbara Fried's theory about morality and right and wrong vs end actions get a giant reality check?

[@non4541]

Impossible. It's impossible to feel sorry for those two criminals.

[@clumsyzombie3144]

I wonder what the hell all her former students are thinking about her right now.

[@rjcc]

You can notice that someone is having an experience without jumping to the next step of "and I feel like they don't deserve it at all"

[@joeschmoe6908]

For sure. What he did was exactly what they taught him to do.

[@cartilagehead6326]

It’s hard to feel sorry for anybody that lost their shirt investing in crypto scams too tho

[@silmarian]

At least one person who lost it all in FTX died due to the fallout and that blood is on Sam’s hands. He didn’t pull the trigger but he pushed them over that edge with malice aforethought.

[@blindsniper35]

I tried to say something similar to the effect but it seems my comments keep going away. Thank you for expressing what I want to.

[@user-rz9rq7pp2b]

What happened?

[@islesofshoals3551]

Reminiscent of Ian Gibbons in the Elizabeth Holmes case

[@4bibimimi]

​@@islesofshoals3551she burned some people high up in the Trump Administration

[@davel4030]

I'm sure more than one.... People get emotional about their money and everyone thought ftx was safe. I did too until I looked into it.

[@scottkirby5016]

Three things. I personally thing white collar crime is one of the only classes of crime not punished long enough in our system. In part because there are so many victims that the total harm is hard to wrap the head around. We accept diffuse harm again and again until it adds up to major social rot. And this crime involves more than 10 times the maximum amount of money that sentencing guidelines even contemplate. How many people coulnd't buy a house, take that vacation, get so stressed by the loss that it was the end of a marriage. So it is easy to see the amount of harm coming down to Sam in this but hard to visualize the harm he did in total. For setting up if FTX will be remembered, what seems to get remembered is if the people who lost money were powerful. With Madoff royalty, Hollywood, etc made up a significant portion of his victim base. Theranos bamboozled half of the Hoover institute and had two ex Secretaries of State plus a future Secretary of Defense on board plus Larry Ellison and other SV legends. The teapot dome scandal of '22 also was some shady handshake deal with the highest muckity mucks of the era and is one of the only gilded age scandals people remember at all. Enron caught more headlines than Worldcom because they had so many political connections where they were obviously trying to buy new regulations. So FTX has a decent chance of being remembered especially as the image of the "crypto bubble of 2021" in history. More disturbingly about how Sam turned EVERYTHING into a gamble. Everything into just odds. We all knew this but he thrived in the world of finance. People loved him for that in a way. Jane st was just as happy to empower that as people were to back LTCM's magic math a generation before. So what does that say about the population of the financial world that they would hold SBF (the legend) up so high as something to applaud, back, and aspire to when the problems with Sam (the man) were so obvious?

[@picahudsoniaunflocked5426]

White collar crime is one of the only classes of crime that makes me reconsider my stance on prison abolition but thankfully I also support community-driven restorative justice models that include meaningful, constructive, ongoing reparations to those harmed, which would reflect the scale of damage & number of lives impacted or destroyed. Oddly, I've stumbled across so much academic or advocacy or journalistic material about RJ models/case studies/research or white papers that concern either petty/nuisance type crime, small time fraud by individuals, or visceral violent crimes of all sorts + scales, but I can't recall ever seeing work applying or even discussing any RJ model as a potential response to the kind of staggeringly large systemic thievery + omni-violations an SBF or Liz Holmes or Madoff produced, or an ENRON or heck [allegedly] many individual managerial bankers at places like HSBC where we have documented instances of collusion + coordination within the banks + with certain clients to launder blood money, hide taxable income, or otherwise facilitate the getting of ill-gotten gains. Unsure if I've simply not come across work addressing those kinds of financial crimes yet by chance, or if there isn't much focus on it in the RJ related fields. I'll have to do a real search & see how much of it is out there & what kinds of models are being proposed, check the research. I'm really hoping I just haven't encountered it yet bc I don't want to believe we're going to continue to silo those fiduciary money crimes you pointed to & keep pretending that these people are somehow less destructive or harmful or recidivistic than the "other" criminals, even as we work towards reform + abolition. I mean some smart folks better be working on these issues. The whole impetus behind RJ is to better reflect reality in our justice policies & for the victims to be included in a process that prevents further harm & restores as much of what was taken as possible, with the goal of restoring the community to wholeness by bringing the offender back into the community too.If we're truly redressing harms at scale + volume, what does that actually LOOK LIKE when it's those white collar serial predators like SBF or Holmes who still think they were right, or would've been right eventually if those pesky regulators + victims just shut up? Jordan Belfort, as you said, came right back & even got more credibility from engaging in myth-making. We prob haven't even found out all the crap he's pulling yet. What is a meaningful restoration + rehabilitation process with these crimes? I don't believe in "lock 'em up, throw away the key", but I also don't for a single second believe these people hold genuine remorse for their actions, or see the destruction they've caused clearly, without minimizing or justifying what they did. I'm also sure they're not safe people without significant oversight either bc if given a nanometre, they'd devour entire communities & pick their teeth with the bones without blinking, for purely selfish reasons, or the compulsion to gamble with the highest stakes, or for no reason but they could so they did. What would real justice + accountability in the whole sorry saga of SBF even look like? Other than more people in the dock?

[@princekareem]

Sam's big sweet confused genius baby routine is so much crafted by his having older, doting parents. He knows this worked to appeal to Lewis and many others in their generation

[@andrewfriedrichs9340]

"How can he scam anyone after this". Aww bless your heart. I assume part of the sentence will be a lifetime ban on engaging in any kind of financial anything. Without that he would be right back at it.

[@fakename1656]

Look at the wolf of wall street guy, he came back and found new scams

[@emmy8526]

Apparently, white collar crime like this has one of the highest rates of recidivism.

[@newhorizon4066]

Rest assured, the parents' "anguish" came from the regret that their son was caught, tried and convicted. It did not come from remorse or empathy towards the victims of his crimes. Personally I felt deep satisfaction even just from looking at the artist's sketch, he/she did an outstanding job.

[@dousiastailfeather9454]

Very true!

[@Darrylizer1]

I'm sure some of it was also worry that they were going to be held culpable for their own actions regarding FTX and Alameda.

[@TheDavidlloydjones]

'Nuther reminder that Stanford is a junior university. 🙂 (Leland P. Stanford Junior University, folks. Ver-ree olde Berkeley joke....)

[@blip_bloop]

I felt enormous relief that SBF was found guilty on 7 of 7 charges. There was this worming doubt in the back of my mind that he was going to walk on this, after the absolutely insane amount of embezzlement.

[@defective6811]

Same. up till the guilty verdict was announced, the back of my brain felt sure he would buy his way out of it. It still thinks the parents will. I hope it is wrong there, too.

[@baziloneil1271]

Thank you Liz for the Shakespeare point. He was not a novelist, he was a playwright!

[@mlcsella]

And poet

[@charlesquinn8860]

Yeah, she had a great point in saying that "you don't READ Shakespeare..." (and yes, I realize what she thought she meant). The only value in this vid is comedic entertainment in the "dangerously stupid" discourse among three people with a child's level of understanding in basically every topic they purport to cover

[@oceanbeachhistoricalsociet8539]

@@charlesquinn8860

[@jezackr3500]

@charlesquinn8860 there there mister Intellectual, sit back down:)

[@b3ntleg]

It seems weird that people want the courts to go easy on him because it was a non violent crime. He has left a wake of destruction behind him. Speaking personally I know I would rather be the victim of a GBH and spend a couple of days in hospital rather then lose everything I have.

[@theroyalcrane]

I remembered hearing this in 2008 when people were unaliving themselves because they lost everything to crooks. It sure ain't a stabbing but those people are gone either way.

[@blindsniper35]

Yes exactly, in the end he committed a bunch of crimes that resulted in similar outcomes. I don't understand the mentality of let's go easy on them and not hold them to the same standard we that results in similar outcomes. You can make arguments about how our justice system works, treats and sentences people. Which I may or may not agree with. But I don't see why he should be sentenced differently than how we sentence people with similar outcomes with the same level of intent behind them.

[@babelouis6150]

yes-not sure why the speaker thinks white collar criminals get too much time. whaaaat? they hurt others . typically white collar criminals get too LITTLE time.

[@deanguenther9000]

With American healthcare, you can have both!

[@nickclinton7661]

If as a parent you don't want the pain of having a criminal child, maybe don't advise them on how to be a criminal, or openly show off the spoils of your child's theft

[@babelouis6150]

exactly.

[@michaelroberts7770]

You call them parents, I call them coconspirators.... I believe the pain they felt, was the pain of knowing they could be next to face justice....

[@richardsobeck]

Seriously stupid man exchanges billion-dollar company for decades in prison.

[@lincolnlincoln27]

FYI: 97% of federal cases are plead out, SBF was not even offered a deal..... And it seems he would not have accepted one even if offered. He deserves long prison.... hee has no respect for the rest of humanity, so is undeserving of any kind of forgiveness....

[@TinyEle]

He wasn't offered a deal because he told his lawyers that he would not accept one.

[@jgreen802]

They would've certainly offered him one if he wanted to go that route, but it wouldve been 20 years at least.

[@newhorizon4066]

Actually a deal was offered to him. It was for 230 years. He turned it down in the hope that he could get to half of that if he took the stand. He did and it looks like he will get it. Smart move, as always.

[@gozz457]

So interesting how Cas has such strong understanding of how all this went down and still would like to see Sam walk with a relatively short sentencing. I appreciate the complexity of the US prison system issues but I don’t think White Collar fraud is part of that issue. At this scale countless lives have been ruined and it’s hard to have sympathy for his sentence.

[@yomamma.ismydaddy216]

I was thinking the same

[@roc7880]

crimes should not be judged based on violence of the means but the conseauences of the act. stealing someone wallet or caris bad but stealing their life savings they entrusted you with is worse even if done by a click or pen. so Sam should spend at least 2 decades behind bars. so other techbros should think twice next time.

[@Raucey]

"Holy shit, we've gotta start gambling in these markets" -Cass

[@IsleyNumber1]

I know you teased this on twitter, but I've been waiting all week Even went to listen to your last episode with Liz on theranos LET'S GO

[@Frazec_Atsjenkov]

32:33 SBF trial is not that important? How many people did OJ harm? How many people did Madoff and Holmes harm? How many people did SBF harm? If we go off purely by the number of people harmed then I think SBF did the most harm. And also, I think the type of people he harmed plays a role. Madoff and Holmes mainly defrauded people who were relatively well-off, that is not the case for SBF.

[@Perfectothemediocre]

I think he's pretty clearly talking about whether it's going to make any kind of cultural impact. People don't decide what to remember based on some mathematical determination of objectively how many people were affected and to what degree. Events just kind of stick in your mind based on how neatly you can fit them into a compelling narrative. OJ may have only killed 2 people (allegedly) but those are still people with names and faces and while SBF may have hurt more people but to the public at large those people are an abstract idea more then a concrete person. Most people never interacted with crypto currency, a LOT of people either have been in danger from an ex or know someone who has . The trial of OJ also had a lot of strong moves by the defense and botched opportunities and ended with an incredibly controversial not guilty. If we're talking about what makes people remember something years down the line then yes, that type of drama is going to create more waves in the culture then the SBF trial where the overall impression is that the prosecution effortlessly curbstomped the defense for two weeks and then the jury instantaneously came back with a guilty verdict. I think the point that Madoff and Holmes targeted people who were well off and SBF hurt a lot more normal people may be accurate but like, is that how people will remember it? I don't know if people necessarily rooted for Madoff but there certainly seemed to be some schadenfreude present at seeing the rich be played for fools for decades. Now, I get that a lot of people on FTX were just regular folks trying to get in on investing in a hot new thing but when people look back on this time period and think of crypto investors the image in their mind is likely going to be a profile picture of the ugliest monkey ever drawn screaming at you to "have fun staying poor". Honestly wouldn't be surprised if peoples overall memory of SBF and Madoff congeal into a pretty similar story of "stole some money from some rich jerks, some poor people may have gotten hurt too idk" I think Holmes is going to stick in my memory in a way that SBF probably won't and it certainly isn't because I have any regard for the rich people who invested in her project. Rather when I think about Theranos the thing that sticks in my mind is the people who got bad medical information, how those people never got any justice, and how close she was to getting her tech into a situation where a lot more people would be relying on it. I understand that if you did the math and quantified and added up the total misery inflicted SBF may come out on top but most people have a more visceral reaction to medical stress then financial woes.

[@Frazec_Atsjenkov]

@@Perfectothemediocre those are all well-made points, thank you.

[@christianjorgensen3522]

The guy in blue is a bumbling fool . I was shocked by how he was defending SBF

[@the_real_ch3]

The sentencing guidelines for Sam are pretty much going to run straight into the maximum allowed by the charges. The only question is if they are consecutive or concurrent

[@William-Morey-Baker]

in either case, he is looking at a minimum of 30 years...

[@brianbelgard5988]

He’s a first time offender, it’s a nonviolent crime and he is not an “authority” figure like a politician, whatever his sentence is, the recommended guideline is not gonna be anywhere near the max

[@lisahesslink2267]

@@brianbelgard5988 Bernie Madoff would have disagreed with that statement.

[@Randomness5050]

No way it's 20 years IMO. He hurt way too many people, he lied and obfuscated too much, the judge doesn't like him, the verdict came back in a very short time, etc. I would bet minimum of 30 years, maybe 40. Note that if he gets more than 30 years, he will be in a maximum security prison with the worst of the worst hard core criminals (yes, ADX/Supermax is worse, but people there are kept in isolation).

[@William-Morey-Baker]

i think he will get closer to the 100 year mark... most of the charges he is facing carry a 30 year sentence individually at the scale he is guilty of

[@cdo...49283]

​@@William-Morey-BakerYeah but when it's for the same crime they usually don't have them consecutively. 20 years seems like a good bet

[@HarishNarayanan]

Sorry what, who did he hurt apart from some crypto bros?

[@Alarios711]

@@HarishNarayanan "Crypto bros" deserve financial ruin because they trusted their life saving into what was advertised (on a f*cking football stadium mind you) as a safe deposit. Gotcha. How very empathetic of you.

[@jdoleiv]

Great work y'all. Elizabeth just absolutely crushed through this whole trial. True clarity and character in her writing style, and it carries over perfectly to her speaking. Your work gives me hope for rationality in the media.

[@VV-er3zg]

Finally seeing who Liz is feels like getting a face reveal at the end of a 5-season show

[@jeffreybaker4399]

Caught you two on your podcast as intelligent background noise while working on something that didn't take intense concentration. Started out thinking, "What we have here is a couple of obsessed crypto critic technicians." But you have really grown on me. Thanks guys, it has been enlightening. Enjoy your research and insights.

[@charlesquinn8860]

"Intelligent?!" If you're not educated in what they're discussing, this is NOT the spot. I'm not hating, this was really that bad. That's why I describe them as "dangerously" stupid, because people like you take their commentary as valid and run with it

[@kieranelliott5607]

The discussion around SBF'S almost delusional state is the closest ive come to feeling sorry for him, because he may genuinely not understand why his juvenile petulance and denials did not work.

[@iknklst]

When your brain is fried from abusing Adderall for years you too can also end up in a delusional state where you create your own realities.

[@markiews]

How about the LIBOR scandal - it was huge, and involved Deutsche Bank (DB), Barclays (BCS), Citigroup (C), JPMorgan Chase (JPM), and the Royal Bank of Scotland (RBS). Anyone remember LIBOR?

[@akinyiomer4589]

That entire scandal drove me craaazzzzy with how little public anger and accountability there was with that scandal! It came a good few years after the '08 financial crisis so that sense of hopelessness that financial institutions would ever pay for their crimes caused huge fatigue, I get that; but still. I think because the faces of the LIBOR scandal were faceless corporations, the public didn't have what felt like a "human story" to focus their ire onto. Even though the damage was horrible and widespread, I've noticed this is possibly the reason why SBF & FTX/Alameda stuck in the public consciousness for so long is because there's a human story of greed and destruction and people find that type of villain easier to digest if it looks like a singular cartoon villain. This is probably one of the unacknowledged, insidious psychological effects contributing to the fact that people and institutions committing white-collar crime rarely face the same level of justice that those who commit non white-collar crimes do.

[@jameswashington9339]

So I understand that yall don’t know why he went to trial but it’s been said by a lot of prosecutors that they didn’t think any deal Sam would have received someone would take. If they make you take all the charges to “set an example” it’s not going to be substantially more time. What is the difference between not having a trail and getting 30 years versus taking a chance and getting 35. Also they could not have known in the beginning that the judge would allow NONE of their expert witnesses while allowing all of the prosecution including witnesses he later said there was no point in having. To be clear I’m not taking up for SBF. I think it’s just easy for us to say I would have done X when if put in the same place we would have had a very hard decision to make. Also if you look at how the bankruptcy is tracking there is likely to be substantial recovery for the customers (not the investors though). So when people say it’s an $8 billion fraud that is both true and not true. Customers will likely take an $800 million haircut spread around (and after fees). Investor will go to zero and that part will be where substantially all of the real losses will come from. If I am not mistaken the investment loss is more than $8 billion.

[@donaldnewell4868]

Going to trial, show no remorse, denying culpability in front of the judge will add many years. Many, many years. He should’ve pled guilty.

[@Carutsu]

14:00 life sentence is not fair? How many ruined lives does he need to rack up? Wtf is Cas rambling about?

[@Niegezien]

And shortly after Elizabeth says "For most non violent crimes, you dont need to put people in for very long" .. i hope she doesnt mean this.. i really dont. But right after this "yeah maybe hell do another one!" makes me think she does. Also mindblowing

[@josephquayle5764]

I was thinking the same thing about what she said there. Also I couldn't believe when she/cass felt bad for his mom, when his mother and farther were both involved, benefited, and knew exactly what was going on from day one. I hope both his parents get indited found guilty and do 20 years each, also I hope they become broke and homeless from clawback law.

[@sitemoth]

I agree that this case is gonna end up a footnote for a reason that was stated but not really explored that much: FTX existed for about 3 years and, aside from crypto circles, not many "normal" people know a lot about it (especially outside the US - we didn't get those ads, we didn't know the arena, etc etc). Take Theranos for example, its scam ran for over 15 years (and Holmes was convicted 19 years after founding it), Madoff ran his scam for more than 30 years, those had enough time to manifest into people's lives - that's what makes it memorable. The FTX case was born and over so quickly that, no matter how interesting it was, there was no time for it to ever really sink in.

[@jsg782]

How many young women will become prosecutors after the formidable performance of Ms. Sassoon? She was a badass. SBF thought he was smarter and more clever. Not so much.

[@William-Morey-Baker]

a life sentence isnt fair? 😂 he should get the maximum sentence

[@stevealdrich2472]

He needs to go to prison for life. He is an amoral thief that ruined countless lives.

[@matukonyc]

I wish people in the media would write and talk with this level of compassion about everyone in the criminal legal system. I appreciate Cas sharing his experiences, which I have experienced also. But so many times we blame "parents" when most parents do more with less than the Bankman-Fried family.

[@torontowill]

Criminal penalties serve a variety of purposes, and protecting society from a person re-offending is only a part of it. That is probably the biggest concern with a violent offender, but with a white collar offender a bigger objective is deterrence. It's not just about Sam, it's about striking fear in the heart of the *next* Sam thinking about perpetrating a massive fraud that "it's not worth the risk". The justice system also can't function if everyone takes their case to trial, and so there's an institutional need to deter people who commit crimes from refusing plea deals (of course it also leads to innocent people being pressured to take plea deals, which is not great). I'm describing here the theory of deterrence, not my personal view on what works. I think it's a fantasy in relation to crimes that people commit based on impulse or addiction, like drug possession offenses. I think it's more plausible (though still not totally convincing) in relation to white collar offenses, committed by people who are educated enough to understand what's criminal, and who have the time to think about their choices and calculate the risks and benefits. I have no trouble imagining that there are people who do finance crimes, because "I probably won't get caught, and even if I do, I'll get off with a light sentence". I've read that even Madoff initially expected he'd get off easy if he came clean and accepted blame. The problem is that even if Madoff or SBF or Holmes see *someone else* get get caught and have to pay a massive penalty, this type of criminal is so arrogant that they still can't see themselves getting caught. So deterrence still might not work. If the deterrence doesn't work, what you're left with is the state spending a ton of money to ruin lives and inflict cruelty, and the only people who win are private prison owners. Victims also get to enjoy the delight of vengeance, except that vengeance doesn't actually make anyone as happy as they think it will. There are alternative theories of criminal justice that focus more on repairing the damage caused by crime rather than inflicting punishment, and where used, they tend to be superior in nearly every way. But the punitive model is pretty heavily baked in to western justice systems, especially in the U.S., where it's reinforced by the private interests behind the prison industrial complex.

[@Oneil1570]

I can’t tell you how many times I checked your channel to see your coverage of the verdict. Glad it’s finally here.

[@headlessfool7050]

All you talking extensively on the human side of this drama is one of the things I appreciate and admire your podcast for . Every single time I watch you, I get really nuanced, interesting and very often very surprising takes/viewepoints . Am very gratefull for what you are doing .

[@jchrizzy6995]

I dont want to hear about how sad we all should feel for sbf’s parents lol, if they didn’t want their son in jail they shouldn’t have helped him commit the most widely advertised and largest fraud of the era. They should face jailtime too, public humiliation is what they asked for. Its also like a harsh but needed reality check for them after careers essentially advocating for the doctrine of personal gain, this is what happens when you think like that and as professors they need to be educated on that reality.

[@codygunter4379]

I've been waiting for this episode!!

[@Rae2492]

Elizabeth is giving a stellar recap of verdict. She's very impressive!

[@Randomness5050]

Elizabeth: The SBF story is not so much Shakespearean as Scarfacean (as in, the Al Pacino/Tony Montana riae and fall).

[@Randomness5050]

@@ApophenicAnt Excellent point!

[@Stash186]

​@@ApophenicAnt..... while hugging his cucumber

[@lunchhooks2253]

Sam is still thinking there's a deus ex machina in the woodpile.

[@hairychris444]

Pretty quick cut after "CasCoin is fine" - Sus.

[@janeg8274]

Oh Lord I thought the new Michael Lewis book would be NOT what I bought!! But maybe being so old I don’t understand why the hell ML still seems to be in love with him! … “ we need SBF’s” 🤮

[@picahudsoniaunflocked5426]

25:17 I love her Shakespeare passion. I'd love to see her take on all the weird conspiracy theories around Shakespeare in a piece/book/podcast. Shakespeare is why House Sparrows, a species not native to North America, is one of the most common birds across the continent. Some dude in NY over a century ago decided Central Park should have all the birds named in Shakespeare. He started importing birds referenced by Shakespeare. The house sparrows escaped & spread across the continent. Anyone living in a city in N. America who's out & about today will probably not notice the house sparrows they'll definitely see --- another legacy of Shakespeare, a whole population of birds across a huge landmass. 29:24 great way to describe Lewis' book.

[@chloefletcher9612]

Can I please give this an extra thumbs up, for bringing back "clown shoes" as a description?

[@jsg782]

Thanks!

[@ledgermanager]

yes..good. empathy!=sympathy

[@picahudsoniaunflocked5426]

I had to find out at the end of a Coffeezilla video YT showed me before showing me CCC. I WANTED to hear the verdict from y'all, actually lol. Great guest, can see why you're excited. Still I have so many questions about his parents tho. I appreciate EL's observations about the family/friends around the trial, but I can't square some of that compassionate lens with the emails his parents actually sent to him & received from him. & his parents were INVOLVED in A/FX! I wonder if his Mom was crumpling bc she felt guilty, bc there was an element of complicity, not bc she raised him. RE: "the trial that shouldn't have trialled" --- I personally believe SBF didn't show remorse, etc, bc he still thinks he was right, he still thinks he could've pulled it off. I don't think he understands the harm he did, not bc he's incapable of understanding, but he hasn't let go of the ideas that fuelled this madness in the first place & he still thinks of himself as this chess-master. So there's no room for him to accept what he has to accept until he accepts the real basics of the harms he did. I do feel awful for Caroline, tho. I had a relationship with a kind of controlling intellectual con-man so I can't help but make connections or hear whispers of my experience in some of her testimony. EL's right --- the human wreckage is incalculable. Even if you're better at math than SBF. 19:36 oooh can you collaborate with Liz Lopatto for a charity merch drop or something with: "Math Camp 4evr Vibes" Bc that's so genius I'd buy a hoodie with that.

[@priola7587]

Wait till we hear from the victims. One commenter I read claimed his brother committed suicide after his losses related to FTX. If those types of consequences (proven) emerge, not to mention institutional pension accounts, then it will get real. It seems like he was raised with too many academic discussions about ethics. Consequences on real people will make a big impact. Think of kids throwing cinder blocks off freeway over passes.

[@johnpick8336]

Testimony told about the parents major part in this fraud like this; "Really Sam this is the first that I've heard about this $200,000 per year salary. ? Putting your mother on this." Then a short time later SBF gives his parents a $10,000,000 Gift. These parents are lawyers who knew what was happening and they need to be criminally prosecuted too.

[@Randomness5050]

If the sentence is more than 30 years, he'll be living the thug life in a maximum security pen. Fun.

[@mitchellrcohen]

“All paintings look exactly the same”😅😅😅😅 this was a great take thank you guys.

[@wuldntuliktonoptb6861]

He took the stand just like he kept doubling down on bets at alameda. If I just make 1 good trade I’ll make that 8 billion back and all will be good. He thought since day 1 going on all those interviews he thought he would talk his way out of it. There’s no way his lawyers didn’t tell him shut up stop the interviews but Sam knows best. I’m sure in his mind it’s ok he’s gonna win the case on appeals. Everything is fine.

[@tehislander]

The episode I've been waiting for! Great job everyone!

[@nataliapockets]

this video needs more love

[@alexhubble]

Utilitarian philosophy is problematic. But I just don't think Jeremy Bentham would have taken the money. Not his style...

[@sunnohh]

And the guest is doing great? Hell yeah

[@guitarforlife238]

His parents should be in prison too

[@jessiemackenzie971]

Greetings from Melbourne Australia I loved your nuanced take on Bankman Fried, Elizabeth, but I also enjoyed the three of you discussing the fraud that is BF. Keep up your hard work

[@ThomasKrul]

Elizabeth's article was an amazing read, it was such a great follow-up to see this interview!

[@gonzalotoscano3310]

So good to have so many videos with different eyes on the matter, you guys are awesome and your guests are too!

[@CryptoCriticPod]

Thank you!

[@REEEEDACTED]

yay ily guys

[@gustavderkits8433]

Remember: we’re not done yet. The politics trial comes next year.

[@CryptoCriticPod]

Maybe, there’s a chance DOJ decides against pushing those charges if they can get enough sentence on these

[@priola7587]

​. I think they have an entirely different example to set in regard to those crimes. In the middle of an election year no less.

[@creativecomposites6193]

Maybe Sam thought it was 2008.

[@mattc1176]

I agree in general with the sentiments expressed about non-violent crimes. But the lack of remorse, severity of crimes etc… this is not someone with good intentions who made a tragic mistake. I think this is the minority case where it’s someone who should be in jail because society needs to be protected from them. He should get way more than 20yrs & I think he will.

[@boulevarda.aladetoyinbo4773]

That disconnection from reality is one of the many things that crypto does to you!

[@aerotube7291]

I enjoy this show for the contrasts in screen personality and wardrobe!. I'm a non investor and it's been a year of this but I'm still a mega fan! Keep it up

[@beatenbytheclown]

35:03 - I’m old enough to remember all the events you reeled off, Long Term Capital Management wasn’t a fraud. It was a bunch of very credentialed academics and investors who believed in their own genius and found out the hard way that the saying ‘the market makes fools of us all’ was coined for a reason. But nobody was ever charged with a crime because of LTCM.

[@picahudsoniaunflocked5426]

44:56 As long as Cas Coin's fine I'm fine.

[@EddieDubs]

I considered signing up with that site just to bet on the under.

[@CryptoCriticPod]

Me too (briefly) - Bennett

[@Moony1568]

I personally think FTX will be remembered because of how fast the rise and fall was. It was here, it dominated the world, and now it’s gone. Plus SBF is a character much like Elizabeth Holmes. I won’t be forgetting him anytime soon that’s for sure. Plus he screwed over A LOT of people. He ain’t gonna be forgotten to history. Trust me.

[@colbyapple]

Cass should be proud to be featured in the R U IN Bloomberg documentary. Its the best documentary out there and they chose their contributors carefully. Go Cass!

[@Nohandleentered]

I wonder, for the FTX customers, if this gives them a feeling of catharsis or will they not be satisfied until Wang, Ellison, and Singh go to trial, plus the conclusion of the bankruptcy hearing. I saw that Celsius finished their bankruptcy and customers will be getting 70% of their original assets. So I wonder if that gives the FTX customers some comfort that the worst player has been punished and there’s a similar case that they can draw hope from that they’ll get some money back too. Hard to answer obviously, but just a thought that occurred to me.

[@jamesowens972]

For a man, who made as many mistakes as SBF made, tell his experienced criminal defense lawyers that he was ignoring their advice and speaking publically prior to trial, tells me he continued to believe he was smarter than everyone. He finally understood his folly during his cross examination. 25 is fair.

[@JBass33]

I agree with Elizabeth Lopatto on Michael Lewis’s book. It is well written and tells a great story. I have read it twice. I haven’t heard any of the critics really articulate the reasons why they don’t like the book. Also, trying to rephrase a lawyer’s questions, arguing with the attorney over the meaning of common words, selective memory loss, evasive responses, etc. are fatal in front of a judge or jury. I speak from personal experience as both a former attorney and judge. On another note, Enron was quite good at concealing its fraudulent activities and in promoting the value of the company right up until its collapse. People of a certain age like me remember the collapse of Enron as being a “big deal” because of its suddenness and the extent of the scandal. It really hit home for a lot of the public when they saw photo’s or video’s of devastated Enron employees sitting on the sidewalk outside Enron with a box or two of possessions from their desks. They had not only just been fired but had also lost the funds that they had invested in the Enron pension plan. And to add insult to injury, those funds were locked up for a period of time after the collapse so they couldn’t even salvage anything as the share prices continued to drop. And to make a bad situation even worse, a lot of Enron executives unloaded their stock immediately before the collapse while continuing to pump up the company to its own employees and the public. It was sad to see those photos of the newly fired employees but a lot of us in California gained a certain amount of satisfaction in seeing the fall of the company that had caused us to endure power outages during heat waves due to Enron’s manipulation of the California power market

[@cinnaminson0653]

Of course EnRon had actual and critical infrastructure assets that continued to operate 24-7-365 while this is all made up BS.

[@deepfamiliar3416]

thanks for the episode. and wait, why did Cas go to jail??

[@CryptoCriticPod]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/fnbcnaimlq6ea7ssi=91IUdjS-nQHx3Nna

[@jezackr3500]

I appreciate that Liz doesn't want to diagnose Sam and uses the word "arrogance". Too many folks online lean into the armchair diagnosis a bit too much.

[@ElleSpeaks]

Knowing your child is going to prison & you as a parent helped pave that road sounds very overwhelming. I doubt the millions his parents alone spent was worth this.

[@klo45pl]

How is it that when you kill a person life in prison is expected but you ruin thousands of lifes a lead directly to several suicides and suddenly its "boo hoo life in prison is too much poor sam". Live in prison is too little. Far to little.

[@RWScott986]

love seeing you guys in my feed when I wake up, and great chat as usual! I can't help thinking about if media-driven ageism played a role in legitimizing someone like SBF, or Elizabeth Holmes, etc. A default tendency to view younger CEOs as having a degree of idealism that precludes corruption, that they're more in touch, and/or have more empathy (feeding the myth that life experience makes a person more insensitive over time, which I think is nonsense. At 55, I'm way more sensitive than I was at 25). You know? This kind of bias only seems to appear when looking at financial/tech crimes, whereas in any other context there's plenty of evidence that teens & 20 somethings can be just as self-serving & duplicitous as any other age group. 🤔

[@floraleia]

I agree with a lot of what you've said in the video and really appreciate the empathy you brought to the discussion. I don't think the SBF file is going to have the same level of memorability as other notable trials, even compared to other big cases this year like Dobbs, especially not when crypto is seen quite unfavourably and rightfully or not, many people aren't very sympathetic to crypto investors. I'm unfamiliar with American federal sentencing guidelines but my guess is 20-30 at a minimum. I don't think life will be on the table, though it's possible the sentence could run throughout his natural life (like Madoff's 150 years)

[@gmalcolms]

Maybe rural Iowa really in't the best place to go to school, because we definitely read Shakespeare in my public junior and high schools in NY.

[@TaraTheFox]

I can't quite put my finger on it either but I'm also feeling this won't achieve long term cultural significance... I think part of the problem is the crypto industry itself. It's still relatively young and even with this amount of money involved still feels pretty niche, unlike energy or health care. Like most people have heard of crypto but a lot have kind of just pegged it as "weird confusing tech stuff I don't think about" or "too risky or sketchy to interact with". The clown show aspects of all this were certainly entertaining in the moment but don't really have a ton of re-watch value imo.

[@babelouis6150]

The parents drove their nerdy math camp son straight into prison. Yes, Sam is a grown adult, responsible for his actions, and deserves his sentence. However he wouldnt be anywhere near this level of crime without his parents pushing him forward. People in power wouldn’t have trusted such a young inexperienced person with billions if not for sams father, a prestigious tax lawyer, making the rounds with him and advising him. Then regular people, taking their cue from experts in the financial industry thought FTX was trustworthy with sam being courted by congress/VC, etc. The mom pushed hard for $ so she could finally be a bigshot political donor. Im sure sam trusted advice from his parents re: tax issues etc. he probably didn’t think they would be pushing him towards prison. They should have been watching out for their son to keep him out of trouble- not shoving him out in front to steal more and more, thus hurting more regular people plus exposing him to a longer and longer prison sentence. Then they let him talk and talk to journalists, even when he was on house arrest at their house and they could have stopped it. They are famous lawyers and KNOW he should be shutting up. They let him have internet access at their house and he started witness tampering. They are APPALLINGLY bad people and HORRIFIC parents. Whatever happens to their son in prison is straight on them. They we’re doing everything to push him towards breaking the law more and more, and stealing from others. They should have been keeping him safe (and of course pushing him to NOT hurt others).

[@kimseltzer]

Punishment should not be arbitrary -based on which kind of cute animal you are partial to. Sam is young therefore…Bernie was old therefore…

[@aerotube7291]

25, with extensive rehab if possible. I've no idea whether the US has these facilities.

[@cinnaminson0653]

There is no rehab stuff going on in US prisons. You there to be punished, that's it.

[@thisiswhatiwasafraidof]

i can only imagine the number of crimes committed by the victims of SBF following the FTX collapse. A lot of wives probably witnessed a lot of pain due to the decimation of billions of dollars. this is not your average "non-violent" crime.

[@ratcitywoodwork]

nice episode. i’ll just say this: with some of the talk about shakespeare, philosophy, and which millenials are the mature ones in the room, it’s kind of giving Revenge of the Humanities Nerds vibes in here😂

[@wswordsmen]

I could give a defense of effective altruism that is way better than any EA proponent I have ever heard of in one sentence. For Effective Altruism to actually be effective it is important to find the proper discount rate between present costs and future benefits.

[@emceha]

He is a gambler with adhd, , pumping himself with meds that surpress emotions.

[@Stash186]

The real emotions will come with the pumping in federal prison. 💁🏽

[@defective6811]

I can appreciate the use of uncertain language regarding Sam's parents, but it's also worth noting that if these people _didn't_ know, and know that they were doing wrong, then they're the stupidest family of geniuses ever. They knew dang well, they just didn't know that they would pay consequences. That's the only thing anyone from this family is sorry for - getting caught.

[@spantigre3190]

Is there a reason why the judge didn't want Sam's parents to have their own room to watch the trial from? You could just give them a room so they can have privacy.

[@ryanlittle3440]

👍🏻🤙🏻

[@MrBadjohn69]

How very sad. When I was in High School, Junior level English class was English Literature. As such we read either 4 or 5 plays. No wonder people under 40 have no appreciation for the arts anymore.

[@yomamma.ismydaddy216]

With how much suffering loss he has caused to sooo many people I just don’t see how 20 years is anywhere near enough time when you look at sentences other people get who didn’t cause any suffering that were aware of

[@Randomness5050]

The better part: he'll have to get a haircut in Federal prison (long hair can conceal weapons).

[@toddsheffield6617]

The fact is , It was horrible while he was doing it, because the money was already going in the wrong places The only reason it’s horrible to his parents now is because, is because they all got caught. FSBF and his parents . They were in it up to their necks. I would suggest , that you save the empathy , for people that truly deserve it

[@yudelmartinez29]

Jordan Belfort didn’t get a high sentence and now it’s on every youtube short there is