Sam Harris debates Ezra Klein about what he said about Sam, Charles Murray, and Race.

[@xXxTeenSplayer]

Ezra didn't answer a single direct question. I thought he was good faith in the beginning, but he just projects his faults onto Sam. He never addresses the fact that his type of journalism is negatively affecting the ability of scientists to dispassionately look at the data, which is Sam's entire point. Plus, Ezra's passive aggression is so infuriating!

[@ScottSmith-rv3yo]

That true

[@livingexiled]

Klien is such a condensing self important little asshat - you have tremendous patience. He has a lot of fucking nerve talking so much shit. Total asswipe.

[@jmc5335]

@@ScottSmith-rv3yoYet Hitchens brought down this line of thinking and the bigotry of conservatives like Charles Murray quite well. As Sam Harris knows too well

[@jmc5335]

@atargo2 Hitchens is as much a scientist as Chaltes Murray. Nonetheless, this doesn't change the fact Harris never argued for his position here against Hitchens.

[@jmc5335]

@atargo2 What skills do Jews and Asians lack that are required for both the NBA/NFL?

[@jdnlaw1974]

I’m pretty liberal but Ezra Klein is so politically and socially locked down this it’s impaired his ability to be objective and use common sense. His logic is like that of a Christian apologists who simply won’t concede the obvious. Great job Sam Harris.

[@transmogrification245]

Ok look at the studies that Murray uses for evidence of African IQ is an absolute joke. Consisting of no more than hundred people in many cases. Listen to when Sam actually says when he is wrong and he says he’s wrong on few occasions. From studies that are inaccurate to making policy. Please be reasonable.

[@danilopompey754]

jd, you are a jackass; I'm sorry; you are long on assertion but short on evidence. You said Ezra has no common sense, but you were unable to cite a single instance of his lack thereof. Sit yo' dumb a*s back down, please. QED

[@danilopompey754]

@@UsernameVincent, just in case you have not noticed, this is anti-social media. If you have something substantive to say, you ignore the trash talk, if you don't, you do what you did; namely, say nothing. Yep, you can sit yo' dumb a*s back down too. QED

[@danilopompey754]

@@UsernameVincent, you sound dumb, were trash talk what you assert, MJ would not have said, "Yo' mama gone feel this." before dunking on his opponents. Wake up. QED

[@danilopompey754]

@@UsernameVincent, I love reducing blowhards like you to single sentences. But word to the wise: when you really have nothing to say, it's best to say nothing. (lol) QED

[@UTGARDER]

Klein’s tone is insufferable. His vocal fry sounds extremely unprofessional. He needs to stop! It’s annoying and it’s a turnoff. It makes Klein sound like a condescending jerk, based on his tone alone. His written work is therefore more palatable to me.

[@dafeac]

Agreed, good lord, his tone makes me extremely biased against him

[@imathumb]

truly insufferable. perfect new york times podcast™ tone.

[@krisdavis01]

“That’s super helpful for me” *response completely dodges conversations *

[@imathumb]

he sounds like such a brat.

[@joekenney7459]

Ezra Klein is the most annoying person in the history of the world. Sam deserves The Congressional Medal of Honor for putting up with Klein's condescension.

[@jmc5335]

Sam Harris ruined his own family holiday when the Vox article came out. Which imo is rather telling of the man's victim mentalilty and his false sense of authority on meditation

[@pie0ful]

Yes its always very annoying when someone does serious damage to your BS hero!

[@massimilianobruschi3498]

Harris is a crybaby who can't take negative feedback. Also, he talks just as much, if not more than, Klein

[@georgekleinfelter7041]

It's not just condescension. Ezra Klein is strikingly intellectually dishonest. His behavior in this debate with Sam Harris was nothing short of disgraceful. I was never a big fan of Ezra Klein but, after this debate, I had my eyes opened to precisely how dishonest the man is.

[@jtstevenson81]

@@georgekleinfelter7041 No kidding. He is the embodiment of the self-important, vegan leftist sod that is so prominent in most online new outlets. I wish Sam had been more insulting and less professional towards him.

[@Francey4782]

The more l listen to Sam Harris - and understand things that he says - the more sense he makes. His is a sound, thoughtful, fair, sophisticated, intelligent standpoint for the most part lMO.

[@mitchkahle314]

Ezra Klein has no integrity.

[@shottheband]

Ezra proceeds to resort to passive aggressive pseudo psychoanalysis rather than disputing the data

[@jmc5335]

Except when he calls out Harris for misrepresenting Flynn and giving some extra depth in arguing back against Harris's example of how there is a genetic cause for IQ differences between socially constructed groups

[@WickedIndigo]

Let’s also acknowledge that even if he was a qualified psychologist or psychiatrist, he’s not allowed to psychoanalyze someone who isn’t his patient. Jordan Peterson does this all the time in psychoanalyzing his opponents and I think that had something to do with why he got his license stripped. And if that was the reason then it was completely justified.

[@tysy1210]

All of Sam's suspicions of bad faith on Ezra's part were undoubtedly confirmed by this engagement. From the condensing and pretentious tone of his answers, chuckles between remarks, and above all his obvious dodging of all direct questions.

[@jmc5335]

There's definite doubt Jeff.

[@georgekleinfelter7041]

And don't forget how profoundly intellectually dishonest he was throughout this debate. He was reduced to just throwing ad hominem attacks at Sam. I was never a fan of Klein's but, after this debate, I realized that he's a disgusting and dishonest individual.

[@jmc5335]

@@georgekleinfelter7041 Was Harris intellectually dishonest or just wrong in suggesting Flynn dismissed his own work?

[@howdareyou41]

Ezra is audience captured. This is nothing more than an attempt to keep getting likes on Twitter. He's a Jew who's been convinced by Whites that he's just another white guy who can't possibly understand persecution. He's hung up on slavery that happened to Black people over 2 centuries ago but has completely forgotten about what happened to his people only 80 years ago.

[@danilo.castelli]

This conversation should have been moderated.

[@howdareyou41]

The entire debate is Klein talking, Harris trying to talk, Klein telling Harris to stop talking, and Klein cutting off Harris

[@bernardzsikla5640]

​@@howdareyou41I felt that Harris spent most of his time defending some of the most outlandish commentary against him and klein not answering any of the questions put to him.

[@salembuckeye9030]

Klein is happily bias knowing that the current political winds allow him to swing wild accusations that get taken seriously but shouldn't.

[@jmc5335]

What wild accusations?

[@salembuckeye9030]

@@jmc5335 Maybe actually watch the video Ezra.

[@jmc5335]

@@salembuckeye9030 This vapid answer is to be expected

[@salembuckeye9030]

@@jmc5335 did mom teach you a new word? You seem very proud.

[@jmc5335]

@@salembuckeye9030 So tell me, why did Hitchens silence Sam Harris when he brought up Murray's "pseudoscience"?

[@jcraw6332]

Early on I hear Ezra claim Sam only empathizes with one side…then later on say that he’s not claiming that Sam does do that. I think Ezra talks so much he doesn’t even listen to himself.

[@jmc5335]

I hear Sam Harris saying it's OK to question the aptitude of your Black neurosurgeon. 🤔

[@cwjalexx]

Time stamp ? I don’t think we listened to the same conversation

[@jmc5335]

@@cwjalexx Different conversation with Glenn Loury. He cited Charles Murray's work using crude the same racial groupings average MCAT scores to say that you would be forgiven for being prejudice against your Black neurosurgeon because of affirmative action. He also stated that Black people are the most privileged people in all the positions that matter in today's society. See if, like Christopher Hitchens's analysis of The Bell Curve, you can see the moral and intellectual failings of such a heuristic

[@connectingupthedots]

​​​​@@jmc5335 Glenn Loury is possibly the biggest doofus on the planet, it's kind of hilarious he complains about affirmative action so much since it's pretty clear that's the only reason anyone listens to him. Ezra Klein is serious competition for him though, he probably believes there should be affirmative action for Israelis lmao.

[@brockgeorge6437]

You are correct that Ezra seems not to be internalizing everything Sam is saying, but to be fair the person interrupting more here was Sam. I felt more of a spirit of convergence from Ezra in this conversation until at least the midpoint. I think Sam is right, but I honestly feel Sam could have made this conversation more productive by being less defensive. Yes, Ezra absolutely got defensive too, but if you go back and listen to the first 1/3rd of the conversation, Ezra was really trying to bridge the gap.

[@gstar3569]

My Lord this kid can babble on without saying anything at all! Its pure ad hominem, and emotional position flowered with academic language!

[@Mjuxtapose03]

Great point

[@robertsemple299]

Haha. I would love to hear a debate between Ezra and Jordan Peterson on any subject you like.

[@jessejordan8116]

You mean Harris right?

[@bhawksfan4vr]

Ezra, dude. That tone.

[@imathumb]

not very mindful, not demure

[@dankybong7743]

"While I have a pHD in Neuroscience, I appear to be totally ignorant of facts that are well known to everyone in the field of intelligence studies" "You should quote the line if you're going to quote the line, I don't think that's what the line said." "Ok so the quote is, this is the exact quote: Sam Harris appeared to be ignorant of facts that are well known in the field of intelligence studies"

[@bigwill2482]

Ezra made really good points.

[@brianmeen2158]

Ezra brought up Ibram Kendi? Oh boy lol

[@jmc5335]

Harris brought up Neanderthals. Lol

[@georgekleinfelter7041]

@@jmc5335 It's pleasing to see that someone spewing gross horseshit (in a comment thread above) about "Israeli money" is the only person here defending that waste of protoplasm, Ezra Klein. You're precisely the right sort of person to be defending someone as intellectually dishonest as Klein. You're the type of defender he deserves.

[@jmc5335]

@georgekleinfelter7041 What did I day about "Israeli money"?

[@emmang2010]

​@ jmc5335 It's genuinely impressive that you can't see the relationship between the entire point of this conversation and the identity politics that Ezra is engaging in, and the Neanderthal discussion Sam brought up. Like wow.

[@NickGarof]

Ezra is a dangerous mind. Incredibly intelligent, but extremely deceptive and manipulative. He's able to gaslight with relative ease. If his motives in life were pernicious or destructive, he could convince a lot of people to do harmful things.

[@jmc5335]

Where do you find him to be deceptive and manipulative here?

[@bsoular11]

@@jmc5335Is that you Ezra?

[@jmc5335]

@bsoular11 Hi Sam. It's highly appropriate you've chosen the initials BS. What with Charles Murray saying it would be economically legitimate to discriminate against applicants employers perceive as Black, and you now saying that it would be legitimate to discriminate against a Black surgeon

[@brady3126]

@@jmc5335Maybe in the first 45 seconds when Klein asked Sam to quote from the article directly yet that line had been removed. Sam nearly nailed the quote verbatim, called Klein out for removing the line, and had pulled it from an archived version. I wonder if Klein was likely counting on Sam not finding it at all.

[@jmc5335]

@brady3126 It's always good to try and get Harris to cite a source. He's not very good at this. Which can be seen when he tries to say that James Flynn disregarded his own work.

[@mrchakragaming3428]

The WOKEness of Ezra is sickening. He's exactly the probelm like Sam stated.

[@jmc5335]

On this subject, what makes you think Christopher Hitchens is woke?

[@nialloloughlin8378]

Sam honest interlocutor ezra barely acknowledged Sam's points. Ezra probably thinks maths is racist

[@jmc5335]

With a name like Niall I'm surprised you don't know why it's pretty racist and stupid to think of one group of people as lazy and stupid

[@robg4472]

When Richard heir singned the controversial letter supporting Murray and his science - more than half the scientists asked to sign refused - Ezra is bringing up valid points. You and Sam can disagree with him but you can’t just keep saying everyone else has a bad faith interpretation of the science.

[@kj4242]

Ezra Klein is confused beyond recognition. I was nauseated by the generous portions of logical fallacies that Klein brought to the table.

[@robg4472]

@@kj4242 name them

[@connectingupthedots]

​​​@@robg4472 it would be easier to list the statements Klein makes that are not logical fallacies, as there are far fewer of them

[@annavanesch7498]

OMG Esra Kleins superiority complex is astonishingly challenging to listen to I just had shut him down Go Sam Harris goooo

[@messengerministries2253]

Hell was Created for the devil & his angels -- Matthew 25:41...&...All the Un-Godly sinners.... >>>>----- sam HERETIC harris is another satanic clone of the devil --- Colossians 2:8 - Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Jesus >>>>>----- 1 man's testimony of Many who've seen Hell ---- 23 Minutes in Hell (Condensed) - Bill Wiese, The Man Who Went To Hell kzbin.info/www/bejne/d3zRmqxueKh-ndU

[@komoleeray687]

Klein's final summaries are a joke. Harris keeps picking up on Klein's misquoting and misunderstanding of his statements. Murray's and Sullivan's work..hilarious..Klein is an intellectual pipsqueak. Feel sorry for Harris who wasn't interested in getting one over Klein ( but did anyway) .., but genuinely wanted a fair open discussion which wasn't possible with a wordy , verbose but empty headed idealogue

[@jmc5335]

There is not one point in that exchange in which Klein misquotes any of Harris's statements. Hilarious when Klein puts an end to Harris misquoting Flynn's position and ends up agreeing that Murray's work is not the gospel

[@komoleeray687]

@@jmc5335 there are several points in the discussion where Klein has clearly misunderstood Harris's points ( so much so that Harris has to address them and correct him). Harris admitted his error with Flynn's position , Klein never acknowledges his glaring inadequacies in his reading of Harris's position or argument.

[@jmc5335]

@@komoleeray687 Well he never admits his error directly. Indirectly he concedes that Murray's work is flawed when he has to agree with the accurate interpretation of Flynn's position that Klein presents him . So why is it that Sam Harris is still using Charles Murray as a source for justifying an individual questioning the competency of their Black neurosurgeon?

[@komoleeray687]

@@jmc5335 Harris states clearly several times in the discussion that he doesn't agree with alot of Murray's views. His correct argument is that the scientific data needs to at least be discussed. Separate from the political context. That is the fair intelligent argument. Not sure why that's hard for Klein to understand apart from the fact he is either stupid or a blind leftist idealogue..take your pick

[@jmc5335]

I notice you never answered the question. This is telling. It is also telling that you misrepresent Klein. For Klein clearly stated that he has no issue with this stuff being discussed, but that it is what isn't discussed that is his main concern. Therefore, his writers highlighted the fact that Harris correctly challenged Murray with Flynn, but allowed Murray to skim over this and Harris accepted it and moved on (to such scientifically sound, virtue signalling points such as describing Barack Obama as an example of individual in-group variance in intelligence)

[@louiset3438]

I can’t listen to this guy, Klein & I can’t believe Sam would even bother speaking to him! So annoying!

[@edluckenbill377]

Get him Sam

[@transmogrification245]

Get him. Obviously you haven’t read the book or critique of such things. It’s really inaccurate in places and laughable. Policy made from his findings are damaging. Like really bad!

[@bsoular11]

That’s a different and important conversation and Sam isn’t for the policies you’re referring to. Pretending the data isn’t the data because people will misuse it is unethical full stop.

[@adventuresinmoodcity]

@@bsoular11 The " data isn't the data " for a number of reasons. You noticed that Sam totally dismissed the idea , when Ezra & the other scholar stated that the outcomes they were reading could actually be read as African Americans being a couple points ahead. Well , you see that Sam ( Mr.Unbiased ) totally dismissed that notion out of hand, as it didn't fit the way HE saw African Americans. The data is not the data , because it is totally illogical that after the horrid, violent trauma of slavery & Jim Crow /Lynching, periods that saw self reliance displayed by African Americans burned to the ground ( literally) at every turn. That after just being less than 60 years out , 59 years of tentative progress, you can now blame African Americans wealth, education & poverty gaps....on their lower I.Q's ? It is totally bonkers that any intelligent, fair minded person could come to such an obvuously flawed conclusion. The fact that Sam runs from having debates with black intellectuals who would challenge him ,& possibly make him rethink his positions , is telling. He calls them disingenuous & playing " Identity politics " ?? Wha , I'm afraid to break the news , but there's no way to look at this country's history & not bring racism & peoples Identity front & center, as the country made this the case . Harris is , seemingly unbeknownst to himself, playing a very transparent game of " Identity politics " . Where he is agreeing with some other authors opinions on why we shouldn't devote anymore time in helping African Americans in this counting , as they're just naturally inferior .....& then doesn't want you discuss it with actual African American intellectuals that see things very diffrent . He'd rather just look foolish , as he regrettably does here.

[@larrycross4114]

Klein refuses to give a direct answer to the points Sam Harris is making . Repeatedly he refuses.

[@USS-SNAKE-ISLAND]

Ezra Klein is undigestable.

[@robg4472]

Sam is rattled - Ezra is good.

[@connectingupthedots]

I'm no fan of Harris but Era Klein is one of the biggest morons among the liberals (and I'm a leftist).

[@unclerhombus]

@@robg4472 Sam was frustrated because Ezra absolutely refuses to talk about the actual data itself, and instead focuses on who Sam is on a person, which is largely irrelevant to the topic of genetic differences in the human brain across races.

[@robg4472]

@@unclerhombus that is not true at all. He points out that Murray’s book is not a dispassionate book about data but largely a book about policy and that both Murray and Harris are cherry picking the studies to support this policy.

[@unclerhombus]

@@robg4472 Ezra offers zero proof to support his belief that there are absolutely no differences in average intelligence across racial groups.

[@ccbearcreek]

This is a great example of the difference between liberals and leftists. Klein is irrational and activistic. That’s a dangerous combination.

[@pie0ful]

Yes it's irrational to point out that Harris should be less concerned with politic correctness then as with the history of treating black people as inferior...lmao

[@zaydevans2077]

@@pie0ful the whole point went completely over your head. Sam just wants the ability to talk about the science of the disparity but he can’t without expressing deeply how well informed he is about the suffering of every other group according to you

[@massimilianobruschi3498]

​@@zaydevans2077 you and Harris continue to make the same mistake- our side isn't not understanding you, we disagree with you. Because of context, which is what Harris and The Bell Curve lacks

[@dand4495]

The preponderance of comments here get it right… Klein is absolutely insufferable. He is the epitome of smug and smarmy, in both style and substance. And even his voice. I do not agree with Harris on everything, but at least we can see here that Harris employs reason and intellect. With Klein it's intellect with very little true reason. Instead it's just lowest common denominator race pandering. He really is repulsive. He is making the easiest, laziest sort of argument one can make in modern political times, that of pandering to racial grievance. He is every bit the race hustler that people like Al Sharpton are, just with a higher vocabulary. A white Ibram Kendi, if you will. And actually that is someone he invokes, which says a lot, and shouldn't be surprising. Klein is everything that is wrong with intellectual discourse in this country today... Yet he has millions of followers. And the reason that repulsive bad-faith race hustlers like Klein have so many followers is due to the support that he can count on as a byproduct of the (radical) left's ongoing long march through the institutions: education, media, entertainment. But there is hope… We are starting to see change, even if just in glimmers… For example, unlike five years ago you can now say on Twitter that there are only two sexes. Imagine that. If we keep progressing, at some point Klein will find himself where he should've been all along, at some low-to-mid-level government bureaucrat position, rather than influencing millions with his silver-tongued woke poison.

[@EricAtilano]

Sam is incredible. Ezra has to feel honored to be schooled by an actual man. Thank you Sam!

[@jmc5335]

That man ruined his family holiday because of the Vox piece and was then found to be quite irrational by many of his fans after this

[@saimbhat6243]

Sam Harris has a bogus phd in neuroscience. It is almost an honorary degree. I would want sam harris to pass a high school anatomy quiz.

[@massimilianobruschi3498]

'actual man'? These Harris fans are unhinged

[@edluckenbill377]

Word games are Ezra go to .

[@fabriziocamisani5477]

They are talking past each other and it's difficult to come to a conclusion. Harris advocates for data, scientifically, soberly and perhaps and he's aware of that a bit callously. Data is data. He doesn't defend the political policies deriving from that data but he could IMO acknowledge that even data is subject to interpretation. Klein seems to be concerned about where the data leads, he's less scientific and more social in his approach. Ultimately, they both have a point and ultimately, since discussions and ideas are important, these two should, if not get along, continue talking in good faith. Lastly, nobody crushed anybody in this conversation, seeing things in this way is extremely revealing and means not listening.

[@bernardzsikla5640]

I believe Harris did a far better job defending him against some of the most outlandish critiques of public policy writers and Klein answered near nothing that Harris asked of him. As much as I enjoy his NYT podcasts, I was utterly disappointed by the quality of his argument. In the past few years Klein has seemed to mature in his ability to argue his prospective more rationally

[@jmc5335]

@bernardzsikla5640 When did Klein not answer any questions here?

[@bernardzsikla5640]

@@jmc5335 I just listened to this debate for the first time yesterday, after listening to both Sam Harris and Ezra Klein extensively over the past few years. In the 2+ hour discussion, Mr. Klein may have answered a few times a question directly, a hand full of questions indirectly and vaguely. The rest of the discussion Mr. Klein stated specific points in rebuttal that were NOT the previously stated and public perspective of those individuals and were from direct conversations of those individuals recently. I found that argument weak at best. I would also like to state that there is a chasm of intellectual competency between having a BA in political policy and a PhD in neuroscience, while discussing scientific research. I found Mr. Klein argument coming from a far more emotional and reactive position and severely lacking true scientific understanding of the science of human intelligence.

[@jmc5335]

@bernardzsikla5640 Try and spell correctly when speculatiing about the intelligence of others. Which previously stated and public perspective of which individuals are you referring to?

[@bernardzsikla5640]

@jmc5335 Obviously I have responded to the wrong person. I gave thorough response to your question and I received a spell check response. Maybe applying a different tact than the same one that Mr. Klein's used with constant accusations without answering a significant question. This is your big chance to display your fascinating ability to compose a rational argument.

[@pipelineaudio]

Does Klein ever actually say anything?

[@ScottSmith-rv3yo]

Not really

[@pipelineaudio]

@@ScottSmith-rv3yo I think he did have a good point that Harris often can't see the same flaws in himself as in others. His situation with murray is pretty much exactly synonymous with joe rogan and some of his guests and harris doesnt get it. I suppose its fair to say that Murray has science 100% on his side and some of rogan's guests much less

[@jdnlaw1974]

Yeah, he says “I’m actually glad you brought that up…” over and over again.

[@goblin6587]

ezras overall criticism was totally correct and sam never even had a counterargument

[@simonrae3048]

He's a knob. He says absolutely nothing whatsoever. He should talk to himself in a mirror.....until he drops dead

[@TheNedlin]

Ezra could learn a few things from Sam if he started listening to what Sam is saying

[@jmc5335]

Such as?

[@FadedDream6969]

​@@jmc5335 feelings dont change the fact that studies take place and exist and repeatedly going over Murray's policy does not change anything. By his logic any person who doesn't align with his politics should be silenced.

[@jmc5335]

@@FadedDream6969 Studies do exist that prove Murray wrong. Why does Harris pretend otherwise?

[@Lamilton82828]

@@FadedDream6969 The whole point of his work is that black and poor people are stupid and thats why we shouldn’t fund social programs because they wont work thats why he works for a think tank funded by millionaires that dont want to pay tax and not a major university.

[@massimilianobruschi3498]

​@@FadedDream6969 that's not what Klein is saying at all. Klein is very saliently pointing out that Murray is a political animal that uses questionable science to justify a social agenda that hurts marginalized communities. It blows my mind when people think anti-racist activists are more of a problem than The Bell Curve

[@bsoular11]

Typical partisan BS with Ezra trying to gaslight Sam, instead of make his case for his point of view. It was all personal passive aggressive attacks because he can’t argue the facts.

[@jmc5335]

Think he argued against the fact Sam Harris misrepresented the views of James Flynn perfectly well. It's a pity Harris never had the balls to argue with Hitchens on this subject

[@BlurryDays]

I always come back to this, the most insufferable conversation on the internet

[@tankbuggeru]

Really? I found it fascinating.

[@BlurryDays]

@@tankbuggeru the debates that are the most fascinating to me are ones where the opponents “steel-man” each other’s stances so the conversation can move forward towards deeper mutual understanding. This one just goes one step forward, one step back the entire time and ends up in a “well I guess we disagree then.” 🤦🏼‍♂️

[@tankbuggeru]

@@BlurryDays Sure, but I think that makes it very "real". They try to get their point across, but just very different stances makes it very hard for them to really feel the weight of each others arguments. I think they are both disciplined and well-meaning, and so they are trying to have a conversation about it that perhaps will bridge some of their differences, instead of just taking a hostile stance, having no direct contact, and just rant about the other to enrage their own fanbases. I like how they're not just throwing out wild claims to back up their arguments, but are actually quoting their sources verbatim. I also like the positions they have taken, because I grant they both have very good points. Should we hide inconvenient/dangerous scientific facts, or can we embrace them, overcome them and grow as a society? Or should we doubt the quality of the studies, how they are interpreted, how they will be exploited by racists, and shelf this research for now? I appreciate the insight it gave me into why Sam became a controversial figure

[@MrGiodis]

Haha, yeah could be! Impressive calm from Sam.

[@AbleAnderson]

Ezra is a left wing ideologue trying to push his woke ideology while Sam is an intellectually honest person trying to figure out what’s actually going on

[@jmc5335]

If so, why are there critics of Charles Murray and his work who aren't left wing ideologues and why do believers in Black intellectual nferiority resort to fath based arguments veiled with empiricism whilst misrepresenting Flynn?

[@ryananon779]

Meanwhile, on planet earth...

[@danhallett4952]

No, idk Ezra maybe, but Sam is a particularly dumb insane ideologue for sure.

[@adventuresinmoodcity]

@@AbleAnderson No , I think you're giving a tremendous about of leeway to Sam because you're a fan. Harris isn't trying to " figure it out" by defending a very clear white supremacist , & that after 250 years of outright chattel slavery, instead of receiving at the very least , some acres of land as a " thank you" for help start the country with free labor, they get another century of oppression & gruesome violence ....that after all that, you're trying to say after a mere 58 years of only tentative inclusion, that we're now ready to start in with why African Americans IQ test scores are on average , lower than whites & Asians ?? Really ? That is totally batshit. How do you explain Ancient Egypt, Nubia & Axum? Harris is actually afraid to talk with any black intellectuals that don't agree with him . I mean if you're gonna hold these wild points of view , you at least should be able to discuss with black folks as to why they're repugnant. Ezra is just a person who is extremely bright & obvuously has black friends. I think Sam should work on possibly developing some relationships that might counter such wild & abhorrent ideas.

[@rayjr96]

Thank god for people like Sam who are not afraid to discuss the scientific data, if people like Ezra were our only source of information and knowledge we would all be dumbed down and misinformed as he is.

[@jmc5335]

Imagine calling Sam Harris's friend Christopher Hitchens dumbed down and misinformed. Why did Klein accurately describe Flynn's position whilst Harris misrepresented his scientific data?

[@Wendy-gs4qt]

Ezra Klein is by no means dumb I like sam harris and ezra

[@georgekleinfelter7041]

@@Wendy-gs4qt It's true that Ezra Klein is not dumb. In fact, he's very smart. But he is incredibly intellectually dishonest.

[@garydeforve5055]

You mean all the data funded by all the right wing "think tanks"?

[@tysy1210]

The nail in the coffin for Ezra was when Sam pointed out his article was posted in a crazy leftist news stream among Neo Nazi pieces. Good shit Sam

[@pie0ful]

The nail in Harris's coffin is when Klein proves Harris can only view everything from some victim point of view!

[@massimilianobruschi3498]

Crazy leftist? That site isn't crazy or necessarily leftist,speaks volumes about you that you think both those things

[@thesprawl2361]

If you're referring to the SPLC as a 'crazy leftist' 'news stream'...that posted an article 'among neo-Nazi pieces' then you are deeply misinformed and confused. It's not a 'news stream'. It's a ;ublic watchdog. And it _outs_ neo-Nazis, it doesn't publish 'pieces' by them. It's left-leaning and certainly fucked up with the Maajid Nawaz thing, but not 'crazy'. You appear to know nothing about what it does.

[@hamzaabbas2354]

Erza is just all over the place.

[@jmc5335]

What makes you think this? He does quite well putting forward the arguments that Christopher Hitchens had against the pseudoscience of Charles Murray

[@hamzaabbas2354]

@@jmc5335 Identity politics, cancel culture is bad news no matter how it is wrapped. He also mentioned that sam harris has no idea about the study sam quotes and when sam called him out on this he had no good response for that.

[@jmc5335]

@@hamzaabbas2354 Yeah. Both Hitchens and Klein done well to dismiss this notion that Charles Murray is cancelled. On identity politics both also done well to argue that it is in fact Sam Harris who is playing identity politics here. To suggest that identity politics is always a negative is also a rather silly notion when we consider the history of people oppressed I dont know what study you are referrimg to, so maybe you could enlighten me. Why do you think Sam Harris misrepresented the position of Flynn?

[@yisroelackerman]

I'm trying to understand how Sam can be so cool. I'd have cursed this guy out at some point in so long an interview.

[@MadMan-r5s]

Maybe meditation helps him with that

[@volo7877]

Ezra is so dishonest and literally says nothing and only évadés and never answers a question

[@jmc5335]

He clearly answers questions throughout. Where do you find him dishonest?

[@zemlca]

Ezra is offtopic and being defensive all the time

[@jmc5335]

Quite the contrary. Harris starts blabbering on about Neanderthal DNA, that history doesn't matter and tries to silence Klein from discussing Murray'swork, whilst Klein gets Harris to admit Murray's work is wrong and educates Harris fans that Murray is far from cancelled

[@zemlca]

I disagree, I think the last sams criticism of ezra, says it all

[@jmc5335]

@@zemlca Sorry but I'm unsure what you mean here.

[@zemlca]

@@jmc5335 exactly what i wrote go and listen the ending part of sams criticism and u will understand what i ment

[@jmc5335]

@@zemlca Exactly how you wrote it didn't make sense. What was his criticism? That we should be allowed to talk about things we have no clue about and it is ideology that informs any criticism of that? That doesn't stack up. Many people of different political persuasion criticise the pseudoscience of Murray. Seemingly, Harris thought Hitchens was driven by irrational ideology when he criticised the racist pseudoscience to his face

[@herbertlandon3267]

Klein is using faith-based reasoning common among religious believers. His political views align with mine, but his reasoning does not.

[@jmc5335]

What is an example of this faith-based reasoning?

[@unclerhombus]

4:43 Sam asks Ezra: *“What don’t I get? Why is your criticism of me and Murray valid?”* Ezra never addresses this question. He resorts to nothing but ad hominem attacks rather than discussing the data itself.

[@seanmcdonough8815]

Ezra is a black belt at not answering questions (directly) while keeping a vail of calm that can even get to sam who's no intellectual slouch.

[@ScottSmith-rv3yo]

It was a very interesting conversation

[@JustT725]

Because he's a sociopath

[@daedrmr2dae]

As editor of Vox, Klein also refused to publish a balanced, unsolicited defense of the Harris-Murray podcast by Richard Haier, editor in chief of the journal Intelligence (Haier is an American psychologist who has researched a neural basis for human intelligence, psychometrics, general intelligence, and sex and intelligence. Prof emeritus in the Pediatric Neurology Division of the School of Medicine at University of California, Irvine) This didn't fit Klein's narrative, so it was censored. All while Klein continued to publish attacks on Harris & Murray.

[@ansonblackall1608]

This Ezra guy’s speaking inflection drove me crazy

[@jmc5335]

Anything substantive that you disagreed with or was it just the style in which it was said?

[@ManicMindTrick]

You can tell just what type of person he is by listening to the way he speaks. Ezra and his precious luxury beliefs.

[@emmang2010]

@ jmc5335 And if it's simply the latter is that somehow wrong? I agree with him.

[@JB-wd2bd]

Yeah it was like some sort of robot

[@ryananon779]

You're aware that this says far more about you than it does about Ezra, right?

[@louisefortuin5176]

Applaud SH for his respectful, patient manner... Because wooww! Lol This is a classic example of a scenario when someone is dead set on their views and already has a prior opinion of you and is not willing to budge

[@jmc5335]

Well the fact is Sam Harris was weak in challenging "Forbidden Knowledge" as being true.

[@seandangercampbell]

I haven’t made my mind up about Murray, I have to say I’m a little suspicious. But I have made my mind up about Klein, he’s a passive aggressive confirmation-seeking ideologue, in my opinion.

[@jmc5335]

You haven't made your mind up on the cross- burning Charles Murray and the hypocrisy of his statements on the intellect and work ethic of immigrants?

[@seandangercampbell]

@@jmc5335 Cross-burning!?

[@jmc5335]

@@seandangercampbell Charles Murray literally burnt a cross with his friends in high school and subsequently explained that he did not know the meaning of the gesture.

[@seandangercampbell]

@@jmc5335 Ha ha!! Really!? That's bizarre! (As well as everything else of course!)

[@jmc5335]

@@seandangercampbell It's not that bizarre when you consider his methodologies, his statements on people he deems as being lazy and unintelligent due to their ethnicity and his dishonesty when defending his work

[@JB-wh3we]

1. Why does Ezra speak like he's a hipster incredulous investigator?

[@MR-uv8ib]

Ezra lost the moment he name dropped Kendi. Is Ibram even open to debates? McWhorter would laugh him out of the room.

[@jmc5335]

Talking about being not being open to debates. Why did Harris point blank refuse to talk with Te-Nehisi Coates?

[@brianmeen2158]

I could not believe Ezra brought up Kendi. Ibram Kendi is a lightweight in the intellectual world.

[@jmc5335]

@@brianmeen2158 Hitchens brought up Gramsci in his critique of the pseudoscience of Charles Murray. Did Harris call out this identity politics of the left?

[@evanstein3011]

Keep in mind this was well before 2020 when Kendi was exposed as a fraud. Yeah you probably could have figured it out back in 2017 he was a fraud, but it was less obvious.

[@blue24563]

Ibram X Kendi is a race-baiting grifter and non-intellectual. He was a the left wing version of Alex Jones. Absolute conspiracy theorist and lunatic as well as a liar. Ezra Klein destroyed himself.

[@GeneralFactCheck]

Why does every woke male look so incel-ish?

[@skepticalbutopen4620]

Sam’s meditation practice went out of the window on this one.

[@ScottSmith-rv3yo]

Thank you for your comment. Have you checked out any of my other content?

[@skepticalbutopen4620]

@@ScottSmith-rv3yo I have and your doing a great job 👍

[@volo7877]

I use Waking up daily and Sam is great

[@GaryBernstein]

Sam kept cool

[@skepticalbutopen4620]

@@GaryBernstein 😂

[@ClayShentrup]

Ezra is just insufferable here. "You don't exactly give short answers yourself." Yeah but Sam's answers were relevant, unlike your digression into personal attacks on Murray, social policy, etc.

[@jmc5335]

What personal attack on Murray? And why would Murray and Harris saying that it would be legitimate to discriminate against Black people, whilst citing Murray's data , be a digression?

[@salembuckeye9030]

Ezra simply wants to shut down objective discussing topics that don't fit his world view.

[@jmc5335]

Nope. On average 'racial' differences in scoring of an arbitrary test being due tk genetics, he's quite agnostic. As any sceptic would be

[@smhaack63]

Exactly

[@AB-eq9mm]

@@jmc5335 you arent a skeptic youre an ideologue

[@jmc5335]

@@AB-eq9mm Explain your rationale

[@Lamilton82828]

Sam just wants to peddle discredited nonsense produced by someone funded by multi millionaires who want to defund social programs to pay less tax.

[@patriceriksson7924]

It’s like Ezra doesn’t want to understand Sam. I wonder who gains economically from the continous misunderstanding of Sam’s arguments.

[@jmc5335]

I think he understands him quite well. Unless of course you think it's acceptable to question the aptitude of your Black neurosurgeon because of average MCAT scoring?

[@michaelseal6738]

I think there’s a long list of entities that are threatened by too much sense-making.

[@jmc5335]

@@michaelseal6738 Of course. The false narratives about the inferiority of the Global South and the domestic lower classes threatens the status quo of those who hold power over the masses

[@mralexlopez2012]

What the hell did Neanderthals do to anybody?

[@slyjokerg]

Wow. Klein really made an ass of himself.

[@adventuresinmoodcity]

@@slyjokerg That just means you are as oblivious to the massive & horrid history of chattel slavery & then the Jim Crow lynching era, which only began to close in the mid 1960's .....a mere 59 yeaes ago. & here , again , some white scholor ( Murray) , widely criticized for pseudo scientific practices in this instance , us once again trying to tell black people they are inferior & that all the poverty we see is the inferior nature of these people, instead of the glaring oppression for the last 350 years. It is a morbid way to avoid accountability & to really give what's needed in the black community, the economic channel that had been denied them over & over again . & even when African Americans did manage to create thriving communities & towns , white mobs would eventually find a reason to come & burn them down . Look up Tulsa , Oklahoma ( 1921 ) a community that wasn't just thrivjng, hut creating & passing along wealth. Welp , in a 2 day period of murder & destruction, the most affluent black community in the country was burned to ghe ground . & of course, no insurance companies paid up, as mob violence ( with the states participation ) was a loophole they used to jump through . & this was just one of many such occurrences , look up Rosewood, Florida, 1924 . Elaine , Arkansas 1919 , Atlanta 1906 Massacre etc .. African American were " freed " to absolutely nothing. The land that was promised & that some black families had actually moved onto, was reneged upon & aby families who were already on these parcels of land , how had to be kicked off after Lincoln was assassinated. Black people's history from after reconstruction to the ending of Jim Crow , was one of constant starting over again . But Murray & Sam say you can just put that aside, & just look at data, which is , under the circumstances, the most bizarre & astoundingly illogical position to hold . Ezra made a stinging point to Sam , when he asked why does he feel so much more empathy for this very wealthy & established author, than you would the people who have been hurt by such garbage science for centuries. That was a profoundly revealing statement. On that Sam should reflect on , as if seems he doesn't have any real personal time invested in getting to know black people, anymore than what he gathers from the news or other indirect & dubious sources. Harris's ego , I don't think , would allow for such an admission..

[@alshort752]

Ezra Klein took him to cleaners on this one and deservedly so.

[@BallsworthBallsbury]

lol

[@ask230]

Wow that's around the 1hr 20 min mark for ezra to finally admit that Sam's explanation of his view and incentives in the first 10 minutes was correct.

[@salembuckeye9030]

This was a Mike Tyson first round knockout by Sam. Klein is accustomed to creating his word salads filled with nothing and getting away with it. Sam kept directly confronting his wild accusations and Klein would ignore that he just received an upper cut directly on his chin. Klein just wanted to leave because he couldn't use his fallback habit of just sliming someone in his echo chamber.

[@jmc5335]

Funny that it's Harris who gets caught out lying about Flynn, 'apologises' for losing his temper, has no response to Klein dismanting the idea that Murray is cancelled, tries to silence Klein when Klein illustrates Murray's rather dubious research methods and let's it slip that he doesn't really care about environmental factors in determining IQ scores. In the process he paints his apparently good friend Christopher Hitchens a moral and intellectual coward

[@MattSingh1]

*Do you have any evidence for this bullshit claim? What a hack and prick you are.*

[@salembuckeye9030]

@@MattSingh1 LOL. Kinda thin skinned aren't you Ezra?

[@jmc5335]

@@salembuckeye9030 Another vapid response and it doesn't surprise me that you don't call me Hitch

[@robertcooper2691]

Klein dodged Sam's direct point: The Woke (Klein) will skewer those presenting fact-based disagreements.

[@jimcricket8334]

Nope. Klein’s direct point: fact based disagreements are historical, and scientific inquiry always discovers that what we thought of as “facts” are wrong. And yet, we’re to believe that Sam Harris’ facts are ahistorical and beyond repute

[@deirdredowling2251]

Some of the comments on this chat line makes me wonder if we were listening to the same debate. Ezra Klein makes good sense to me and Sam while a good actor is very defensive and is blind to some of his own bias and just won't deeply listen enough to things outside his own experience.

[@michaeljones5615]

Yes!

[@ktnow88]

Thank you. I thoroughly agree. It was just entirely depressing how biased he was. He just didn't even seem to get how so much "science" and "data" is cherry-picked, meaningless out of context, and often ultimately proven wrong, yet it's use (which Harris promotes) can do untold damage and hurt (which he disingenuously keeps professing not to want to do). I couldn't believe how naive Harris was. It was very sad.

[@aps-pictures9335]

All of this could have been resolved by Ezra understanding what science actually is…

[@jmc5335]

It's those who apply the concept of skepticism who understand that the simplistic scientism of Harris falls short here

[@jasonu3741]

@@jmc5335 while i don't agree with Ezra's tone (condescending) or how he framed his argument, in principle i agree with his point.

[@jmc5335]

@@jasonu3741 I much rather substance over style. Any day of the week. Whilst you see Klein as condescending, I see Harris the same but with a victim mentality. Self-righteousness and self-pity isn't a great combination. Especially when perpetrating old racist rhetoric

[@jweezWhy]

@@jmc5335 it surprising how so few people feel like you or me. To me, this convo made me see Sam in a worse light. I was a huge fan before this.

[@jmc5335]

@@jweezWhy Yeah the penny dropped for me here. It did for many. Think I clung on for a while before he said to Rebecca Traister about Matt Damon being cancelled. At which point she pointed out that she had just seen a billboard with his face on it. Whereas cancellation is a problem ( more so for those on the true left or anti-war advocates), this for me revealed that the IDW crowd's discourse around it is very entitled and an antithesis to the concept of free speech. In fact, in response to The Bell Curve, Hitchens not only called it pseudoscience and said to Harris's face that Harris couldn't possibly believein it, he also illustrated that the discourse around it was that those who opposed it were painted as being too politically correct. I only wish Klein had brought that up.

[@KamaTanha]

So embarrassed for Sam. Bad faith whiny victim is not a good look and is quite below him

[@gessie]

The comment section is even more amusing than the video. Why does Ezra Klein stalk the comments under the alias "jmc"? Given that these Harris v Klein talks are mostly prominent due to people watching a political extremist slam headfirst into a wall repeatedly I vote we need more hilarity, but watching Harris repeat in a calm voice "please stop being racist" would be a nice addition. I don't quite understand why he doesn't state the obvious, or why the opposition to woke extremism doesn't do this in general.

[@jmc5335]

Harris just got found out for his political extremism didn't he

[@gessie]

@@jmc5335 Ding-ding-ding! 26 minutes, that was a good response time. Congratulations Mr. Klein.

[@jmc5335]

@@gessie I always thought you were funny Donald. Good job in breaking Harris 👍

[@garydeforve5055]

He's had 2 guests of over 900, and one of those was Glenn Loury, volks, we have a racist.

[@salembuckeye9030]

We so need Sam to keep talking about data and facts and stay unbowed by those like Klein who attempt to stifle discussion for purely political reasons.

[@jmc5335]

Hitchens 'stifled' discussion of The Bell Curve for political reasons?

[@robg4472]

It would be nice if Sam would start talking about the data and the science.

[@geoffreyhall2034]

Exactly right

[@jasonu3741]

The African Diaspora has entered the chat "so whats all this talk about black people lacking intelligence?"

[@fissionmail3d]

I’ve never heard anyone who sounds more like an AI than Ezra Klein

[@theneuroticcounselor2947]

I don't see eye-to-eye with Sam with everything, but I certainly respect the man for treating Ezra with decency in a heated exchange like this. I'm not sure that I could show the same level of decency, if I were in Sam's shoes.

[@jmc5335]

That's strange because I would hardly call it decent to apologise for misrepresenting Klein and acknowledging that the work of Charles Murray is flawed here, then after this continuing to misrepresent Klein and use Murray's work to justify discrimination against Black people.

[@theneuroticcounselor2947]

@@jmc5335 How is Sam using Murray's work to justify discrimination against Black people?

[@jmc5335]

@@theneuroticcounselor2947 By saying that medical schools are lowering standards to admit Black people, so it would therefore be legitimate to question the aptitude of your Black surgeon. I'm hoping you can see the intellectual and moral failings of such a position

[@theneuroticcounselor2947]

@@jmc5335 I have listened to this exchange numerous times, and that statement would be something I would remember (which I do not). Do you have a time-reference on the video to point to for that?

[@jmc5335]

@@theneuroticcounselor2947 "then after this". He made this statement in a recent podcast with Glenn Loury. A podcast that occurred after Murray tweeted that it is economically rational to discriminate against Black applicants of equal standing for jobs I may add.

[@andysarno1]

Listen to and admire both of these people. I think Ezra lost his way a little, but I often find agreement with him.

[@gstar3569]

I'm astonished Ezra Klein even tries to stand against COMMON SCIENTIFIC FACTS and Sam Harris an intellectual heavy weight like Sam Harris.

[@jmc5335]

Such as questioning the legitimacy of the grouping 'Latino' as a genetically homogeneous group?

[@Rammbock]

As a Burkean conservative, I don't care much for Klein's opinions, but I must say his points are not as bad as prople in the comments present them to be. He and Harris will never agree, because they have entirely different attitudes to what the goal of research ought to be.

[@Goingwithafakehandlehere]

Ezra is such a snake

[@jmc5335]

Yet Klein was the more honest and consistent throughout this situation. Which is why many Harris fans seen him for who he is here

[@bsoular11]

@@jmc5335that’s hilarious.

[@radscorpion8]

@@bsoular11 hilariously true?

[@allrequiredfields]

He sounds like Jiminy Glick. Iove when he gets mad, that condescending vocal affectation goes straight out the door.

[@davestory8614]

Why even give Ezra any more of a platform. He’s proven himself malicious and incompetent multiple times. He is desperate for attention, and you give it to him.

[@gregorygilmer1402]

As a black man in America, I often get annoyed when Sam thinks facts happen in vacuum. It’s a savant/autistic trait about him. Ezra had a problem with the presentation of the facts in question. Ezra also wanted Sam to consider the source of those ’facts.’

[@Xarai]

what about you being black has anything at all to do with your dumbass comment?

[@Himmelvakt]

​@@Xarailol right

[@jradamsjr]

"Facts happen in a vacum" - thank you for that - it helped me crystalize a feeling into a thought!

[@charlesstone9817]

THAT PART!!!

[@worldpeacepatriot9448]

Why can we not have someone with the brilliant mind , ethics , moral principles , imagination and articulation like Sam Harris become president and lead the nation and world into a new paradyme shift toward global consciousness and enlightenment !

[@jmc5335]

There goes the UN Declaration of Human Rights then!

[@bobvbryan1266]

With Ezra Klein as his running mate? That would provide coverage and representation to an impressive swathe of the population.

[@MJPdeMDP]

Still believe this? Lol.

[@smhaack63]

Because successful politicians are those that tell people what they want to hear.

[@zaydevans2077]

@@MJPdeMDP interested to hear what sams done since to make you comment this.

[@Caspaah151]

This was one of the most unproductive debates in history. Klein was so well prepared... For Sophistry, not the exchange/debate on ideas.

[@jmc5335]

Klein done rather well in taking down the idea that Charles Murray is cancelled and that his work is scientific fact.

[@Caspaah151]

@@jmc5335 Read your own comment again.. 🤦‍♂️ I understand why you might believe that. Lmao

[@jmc5335]

@@Caspaah151 Brilliant argument Kassa. You really excelled in this "exchange/debate on ideas". Why did Hitchens tell Harris there was no possibility that he could believe in the pseudoscience of The Bell Curve?

[@Caspaah151]

@@jmc5335 I dont care about your opinion mate. There is no exchange or debate on anything here. At least correct your first comment, so it makes sense.

[@jmc5335]

@@Caspaah151 You've already proven you are intellectually incurios. Now you've proven to be a coward. Sam Harris has taught you well.

[@gregrodriguez1475]

I was expecting an intellectual conversation. It appeared as though Sam was the only one willing to engage with honesty and integrity. Ezra appeared to be more interested in dodging and flanking with accusations.

[@lstavenhagen]

Sounds to me like there's still just a simple disagreement about what the data actually is and what it actually means. They can't seem to even agree on what being Korean or White means towards the end - a legitimate conundrum. Both appear to make decent arguments for each one's position, but I think where they disagree is at a more fundamental level than either one asserts. I think SH is correct, though, in that you can't solve even that problem if you're prohibited from even being able to bring the subject up for discussion. And I think EK is also correct that that same fundamental disagreement has always been used by "real racists" to absolve themselves from "real racism" and reach "Jeffersonian" guidances for social policy, etc. I don't think any progress was made in this whole podcast, tell the truth, other than better illuminating each side of the debate.....

[@ScottSmith-rv3yo]

At least they had a conversation a lot of people don’t.

[@fifossucrilhos]

The data seems quite clear and its easy to access. Two mostly overlapping bell curves with a slight difference in the mean.

[@niketashermeides6013]

@Victor One standard deviation is not a small difference.

[@jlau3000]

The problem with Ezra’s point is that he added moral judgment on Murray’s point. Thus Ezra made conversations impossible. He should just list out the environmental factors in the IQ results and hence the conclusion should include how to use environmental factors to improve the IQ of those who scored low. That is, Ezra could criticize the conclusion and not the person who used it to derive the conclusion that he disagreed.

[@rachelreed68]

Mess with Sam at your own peril.

[@jmc5335]

It's clear to see why Harris tried to chicken out this debate

[@staceybellis5804]

Very interesting conversation from two individuals that I respect.

[@mikeshivak]

Only 1 of the 2 people here was having a conversation. Example: When 1 is asked a question, answers. Interacts with the topic. When 2 is asked a question, changes the topic.

[@howdareyou41]

Ezra is the most insufferable Pick Me guy ever

[@gooddaysahead1]

IQ is a static measurement of a person's ability on this particular test. No one would ever say that it is THE final word or conclusion about a person's intelligence. It is one test. Is it scientifically exhaustive? How could it be? It's only ONE test. As one who has been trained to teach children with high levels of talent, and worked with them, I know that high aptitudes and abilities are fluid through a wide range of behaviors. IQ is a snapshot of certain types and ways of problem solving. Why aren't the limits of this test raised in this discussion?

[@gooddaysahead1]

@@UsernameVincent That's why I wrote what I wrote. I don't think it was mentioned. That's why I was so surprised. I think it would have shut down a lot of the dialog if they had agreed that it was an imprecise measure of overall intelligence. There are so many different kinds of intelligences.

[@gooddaysahead1]

@@UsernameVincent It seemed to me they were arguing over IQ scores as if it was the final word about personal/group intelligence

[@milart12]

IQ is not just ONE test among many similar tests. It is THE test that best captures one's general intellectual ability. Yes, there are other kinds of intelligence, but no other test crystalizes the general intellectual abilities of most people.

[@gooddaysahead1]

@@milart12 Who said an IQ test is one test of intelligence among many? Not me. What are your credentials for knowing about testing for intelligence? My whole career was testing and working with people with high aptitude in a variety of fields. I taught at the University level. It is a field that has a rich and well developed history. KZbin is not the place for discussing this.

[@milart12]

@@gooddaysahead1 Get off your high horse. I don't care what your credentials are and you should not have posted here if you think that KZbin is beneath you. You repeatedly wrote that IQ is just one test. (particular test-one test ONE test). What else were you trying to imply other than its relative insignificance. You ,yourself, used the term "high aptitude" How was that determined? Let me guess...an IQ test. You also refer to an IQ test as "static" and a "snapshot", further implying that one's score is ephemeral. In fact one's IQ is very constant over time and changes little in one's lifetime.

[@Geordie504]

Ezra Klein is the Jordan Peterson of the left. The word salad is slathered in mayonnaise.

[@jmc5335]

So you're telling us that Sam Harris has more sympathy for the right

[@jaggerlags]

Mayonnaise and pride.

[@howdareyou41]

Ezra actually said someone in favour of Universal Basic Income is proposing cutting social spending?

[@jmc5335]

Murray himself said his proposed UBI would mean a cut to social spending.

[@carllegault7863]

Ezra Klein is what happens when smug, self-righteous, narcissistic condescension reaches full embodiment in a human being.

[@jmc5335]

Where do you disagree with him?

[@carllegault7863]

@@jmc5335 Most of his substantive views in this debate, but that’s not the point. My comment was about his *style* of conversation and the way he interacts with those who disagree with him. Frankly it doesn’t matter if what he believes on any particular issues. It’s how he conducts himself that’s insufferable. In fact, like Sam, I likely agree with Ezra on many social and political issues, but it’s the way he engages with others that I take issue with.

[@jmc5335]

@@carllegault7863 What substantive points do you disagree with?

[@dr.fidelius2905]

I’m listening to this because of Harris’s wonderful podcast with John McWhortle (“they’re coming for your kids”). I’ve not finished, but good things happen at 50:00ish. So far the best support for Klein’s position on Murray is the history of the misuse of science to support discriminatory policies by race and gender so well described in Steven Jay Gould’s “The Mismeasure of Man” . However, Klein looses it when he attributes Harris’s opinions as coming from the views of his “tribe”, undoubtedly, the tribe of white privilege. Here’s where Harris nails it. In essence, Harris’s tribe is those who want a better society which is the society he would like to live in if his place within it was chosen randomly. This is a very rational idea, logically equivalent to many expressions: game theory saddle points, e.g. how something is divided when the other person gets first choice, what sort of society would be made if everyone believed in random reincarnation, the golden rule, and many other examples one could dream up. Well, now I’ve listened to it all and I finally hear that Harris has criticisms of The Measure of Man and I’d love to hear what they are.

[@jmc5335]

You obviously werent listening. Klein did not mention white privilege, but did mention Harris had an affiliation for thòse deemed to be victims of political correctness. Although in this case, Harris is defending the not so moral discrimination against those deemed to be from the not so scientific groupings of Latino and Black people. Not to mention women and those from poorer backgrounds. Harris's tribe want to make things better by actively discriminating against someone because of their skin colour and then act the victim when criticised for it? Not to mention the torture, the nuclear first strikes and the want to discriminate against those who ate Muslim

[@thesprawl2361]

My question on this issue of racial disparities in IQ is simply: why? I understand that Murray isn't necessarily hyper-focused on this issue all of the time. But to those who do talk about it, and defend its discussion...why bother looking into it at all? I can see no rational reason to focus on this issue at all apart from basic racism. I can understand being interested in the issue of subjects that are unspeakable, and being interested in the historical ferment around the release of The Bell Curve. But I cannot understand why anyone would choose, out of all the subjects on earth, to talk about racial disparities in IQ. I'm not saying Sam did this. I'm a subscriber to his podcast and I'm a fan. But I do think there is a good reason to be worried about amplifying Murray at all, to choose to interview the guy at all. I think there _are_ subjects that are true yet their discussion should be discouraged, or they should at least be left alone. And I think racial differences in IQ is one of those subjects.

[@ktnow88]

@@thesprawl2361 as a woman, I thank you. We've had centuries of rubbish "science" saying we were this, or that. Yes, there are differences, but they are so far less important than talking about the inequalities, and in fact, ironically, the differences in fact (e.g. ability to be pregnant with child) in fact shed light on the need to sometimes provide greater support to women (whilst other times men need greater support). We should be talking about the support people need, and how we deliver it in the best ways, rather then wasting time on pointless "data" like this.

[@thesprawl2361]

@@ktnow88 I agree; these data are trivial and I'm suspicious of why anyone would focus on this stuff. I find Murray a bit of a creep.

[@kanemurphy6848]

Sam time and time again. Tried to state talking about data is different to what you do with the data... American history was not the topic of sams podcast... End of argument.. Journalists should stick to journalism.. Not Sience and data

[@jmc5335]

Obviously journalists can critique how data is gathered, the false presumptions the data relies on and factors that contribute to the data. As any skeptic should. Pity Harris concentrates on playing the victim card

[@PeckiePeck]

Ezra just doesn't believe Murray's science could be valid. He can't conceive of the possibility. That's why he can't separate the data from its misuse; he thinks the data is racist deception.

[@englishdogs]

Never mind Ezra's smugness, I can't stand his scratchy voice.

[@jmc5335]

What about his arguments though?

[@englishdogs]

@@jmc5335 Smug

[@jmc5335]

@@englishdogs I never took Christopher Hitchens as smug when telling Harris his position on The Bell Curve was unbelievable

[@GenXersJustWalkItOff]

I listened to this dialogue (at least twice) when it was fresh years ago, and I felt very protective of Sam in a way I think was more tribalistic than I realized at that time. Returning to it now, still an avid consumer of Sam’s work, I tend to think Sam was feeling Ezra was assigning more blame than he was, actually. I perceive Ezra’s take as more reflective and problem-solving in nature, and if the past few years have taught us anything, it’s that there are millions of true racists out there who will grasp at any credibility they think they can gain through the conjectures of someone like Murray, who should just never be platformed. People are too ignorant and irrational to manage his messages well.

[@jmc5335]

To be fair Michelle, Sam Harris has advocated for his racist policies, but I still would say that he should be given a platform and challenged

[@alexanderson7219]

"Because the truth could potentially be used by racists, we shouldn't tell the truth" You are a imbecile

[@Luvmusic-fd4uo]

After 50 minutes of listening to this debate, I think Ezra will only waste your time.

[@MW-xi5go]

Salon is of the caliber of Young Turks namely of low caliber

[@michaelseal6738]

Being a liberal myself, I wonder who the liberals are that are listening to this Ezra Klein and hearing anything of value, but then again I don’t wanna know. Because I’m as embarrassed of them as I am of him.

[@jmc5335]

Christopher Hitchens would have agreed with everything he said here. But I value the fact that he showed Harris's shtick as being a scam.

[@georgekleinfelter7041]

@@jmc5335 What Ezra Klein showed -- to a degree that shocked even me, someone who has never particularly liked Ezra Klein -- is how profoundly intellectually dishonest he is. He was reduced to just chucking ad hominem attacks at Sam Harris and throwing negative labels at him. I had no idea before this debate that Ezra Klein was such a waste of protoplasm. His behavior was indefensible.

[@jmc5335]

@@georgekleinfelter7041 What ad hominem attack?

[@jackscalibur]

You're delusional.@@jmc5335

[@ryananon779]

@@jmc5335 There were none. You just happen to be rubbing shoulders with Harris fanboys on this thread. Thou shalt not speak ill of their perfect, infallible hero.

[@TheNedlin]

Ezra you haven’t answered one question from Sam Please stop being hypocrite and a bigot

[@bqdavis1]

I am hopeful that this is old. It would be sad to think Ezra has gone downhill this far from other interviews I have heard with him.

[@jmc5335]

It's quite easy to research how long ago this was. It's also quite easy to research how Harris holding up Murray's work as established, mainstream fact is wrong and that his defence of doing so amounts to calling Hitchens a moral and intellectual coward

[@connectingupthedots]

He was always pretty terrible to be fair.

[@connectingupthedots]

​@@jmc5335 Klein is only big because he's got big Israeli money behind him.

[@jmc5335]

@@connectingupthedots What Israeli money?

[@ShankarSivarajan]

I like Sam's succinct summary of this on Rubin's podcast (in 2018) when he implied that Ezra Klein had "the intellectual and moral integrity" of the KKK.

[@alexbaxter3730]

Wasn’t a debate. It was a calm rationally minded man putting a self entitled little twerp in his place.

[@jmc5335]

Especially at that point Harris misrepresented James Flynn

[@mark_tapia]

Still the hardest debate to listen to on the internet.

[@jmc5335]

For many Sam Harris listeners it was as they then seen the light

[@joekenney7459]

Klein is so dismissive and uninspiring that it was a waste of time and I bet Sam feels the same way. Klein is a joke!

[@jmc5335]

@@joekenney7459Yet Klein certainly inspired many Harris listeners to see him as the most reasonable and rational compared to Harris

[@tonylipsmire5918]

@@jmc5335 as far as I can tell it’s just you

[@jmc5335]

@Tony Lipsmire Sam Harris on releasing the email exchange with Klein "Judging from the response to this post on social media, my decision to publish these emails appears to have backfired. I was relying on readers to follow the plot and notice Ezra’s evasiveness and gaslighting (e.g. his denial of misrepresentations and slurs that are in the very article he published). Many people seem to have judged from his politeness that Ezra was the one behaving honestly and ethically. This is frustrating, to say the least."

[@RenegadeContext]

His argument for a socialist society is pretty good. It's a pity he doesn't believe it