Sam Harris Confronts Ezra Klein on IQ Lies and Ideological Bias

[@Sassol66]

The whole debate can be summed up as follows: Sam: Cold hard facts say genes matter. Ezra: Check your privilege.

[@LouisKing995]

Donald Trump is Affirmative Action for the GOP I assume you have read the bell Curve multiple times correct ?

[@morganlatte9688]

You omitted the part where Sam throws a tantrum and accuses Ezra of bad faith for attributing bad faith Sam, which Ezra never does.

[@LouisKing995]

L B Flynn wasn’t definitive in his statement, I advise you listen to it again.

[@benaud5790]

There is a reason for that. Klein is and always has been a complete lightweight. Much like Vox.

[@Sassol66]

Donald Trump is Affirmative Action for the GOP: If Blacks really are as smart as Asians then they should be as successful as Asians. Money doesn't care about skin color. Science merely confirms what is obvious to everybody. It's not racism holding people back. It sucks I know, but if you want to solve problems you need to know what the facts are. Otherwise you'll never solve anything and black people will complain about being oppressed forever and ever, especially in today's world where IQ matters more than anything.

[@blxckmxrs]

tl;dr: As a black man, I can recognize the trepidation surrounding the discussion of IQ as it relates to race but believe it is still an important discussion to have and commend Sam giving it a platform. Charles’s political agenda is irrelevant and as Sam says, a separate discussion from the empirical merit of his and his co authors finding. Ezra means well but still comes off as a rabid virtue signaler, who is defending a people who can defend themselves. About a week ago a friend of mine who listens to Waking Up, asked me if I had ever listened to Sam's podcast with Charles. We are both black by the way. I listen to Sam’s podcast but this was an older episode and I hadn't gone back that far yet. He said it was extremely interesting, yet weird to hear, being that as a black man, he was a part of a group of people alleged to sit in deviation below the average IQ. I decided to listen to it in its entirety and I share that feeling. First, let me say that Sam Harris is extremely important to me. I think it is mind's like his, who are unapologetically dedicated to questioning ideas and observing their merit (or lack thereof), even when those ideas are uncomfortable, that make the world a better place. It is VERY HARD to talk about topics like this without your rhetoric being perceived as somehow laden with bigotry and prejudice, so there is an immense respect from me in that regard. Science does not care about your political affiliation, your skin color, your sexual preference, your favorite food, etc. In its methods, you find cold truth and that is why it is so important. The fact is IQ has become an even larger factor in success AND survival, just as Sam and Charles echoed in their meeting. In fact, it is not even enough to be smart anymore. You must excel at what you do, both in talent and grit, to maintain even a modicum of comfortability in most cases. This means we are only doing ourselves a disservice by shying away from the science behind our intelligence, even if it seems to bring with it incendiary fallout. Ezra means well, and I agree with some of what he says, the conversation being had is much bigger than us African Americans, or Hispanics or Asians, and any other segment of society. Our understanding of our intelligence factor, the way is averages out among different groups, and what is means as a whole to our society is vital. With all that said, I would implore the Caucasian listeners to at least attempt to understand where the fear or trepidation, on the part of minority populations and their “defenders”, lies. Even I, who does not typically jump to conclusions of racism and prejudice, feel a certain uneasiness when I hear of a book written by a white man citing my race, and thus me, as intellectually inferior. But my immediate reaction is not to scream racist, but to rather take a close look at the evidence and try to understand it. I cannot know if Charles Murray is indeed some bigot with an agenda. He may be, he may not be. But what stands to my attention is his and his co author’s finding, and whether THEY are legitimate. And if so, where do we go from there, if we go anywhere at all? There are true and legitimate implications from this kind of research, the least of all being that you won't get hired by a prospective employer because of the Race -> IQ relationship. Newsflash: A racist employer has already made that decision, they don't need scientific backing. More importantly, we can prioritize scaffolding programs which encourage early STEM introductions in communities rich with children who fit among groups that may not typically have the innate computation skills to adopt their topics. We can stop looking at Computer Science as a Asian, Indian, white thing, and start recognizing a real and quantifiable divide. Then start filling it. Ill end with this. I am a junior software developer by trade, and while I do not make a lot of money, I am comfortable. I have never saw myself as really all that intelligent, but rather hard working enough to compensate where my talent stops. In fact, I believe that on an IQ test, I likely would not score all that high. Programming is not often easy, but I work hard and spend no time ruminating over what I did or did not get from a genetic lottery. Regardless of where you sit on the IQ scale, remember ethic is vital.

[@timothysnow5]

Taaref Malou Very well written thoughts. It would be great if you could expand on these and/or make a KZbin video about them. I'm afraid they will get lost in this comment section.

[@tjti2631]

@Donald trick Trump Has STD's from Stormy D. if you look at his name you can tell he is black

[@chadfolzenlogel8739]

@@rigsby86Harris and Murray are devil's? Lmfao Ezra is a half rate activist journalist that's completely out of his league and compensates for it with pointless word salad and his smug little bitch attitude.

[@chadfolzenlogel8739]

@@rigsby86 and anyone using the term "woke" should just stop talking about how intelligent they are.

[@Hippiekinkster]

@Taaref Malou - I have been watching talks/presentations about Psychopathy for reasons entirely unrelated to this discussion. One particular talk by Dr. James Fallon concerned his discovery of his own Psychopathy via fMRI. He also discussed his genealogy, as it seems that he has several murderers in his ancestry, including Lizzie Borden. Now, molecular biologists and geneticists have found that trauma (real trauma, not the Uni "triggered by speech" horseshit) can be encoded via methylation into a genome, contributing to if not precipitating Cluster B personality disorders, and this recoding is of course heritable. A surprising result of his (and his colleagues') research is that this recoding can possibly somehow skip not just one generation but two, to reappear decades later as Psychopathy, Borderline, Antisocial, and other Personality disorders. Assuming that such is the case (and I consider such to be plausible), contemplate the multigenerational trauma experienced by the overwhelming majority of Black Americans, trauma which did not end with the Emancipation Proclamation or with the Civil Rights Act of 1964. Generally speaking , Cluster B disorders tend to relegate those who are afflicted with them to the lower socioeconomic strata of society. And ,generally speaking , those who are in the lower strata tend to have inadequate nutrition, a primary cause of developmental disabilities. My thesis is that, if the research described in "The Bell Curve" is scientifically valid AND true (an argument can be valid and still be false), then the aggregate IQ variance is both genetic AND environmental. The argument that such variance is strictly environmental cannot be sustained. I would argue that cutting social programs is exactly the WRONG thing to do, particularly with respect to neonatal and developmental nutrition. Doing such would leave an entire generation of impoverished children, already at risk of obsolescence because of the "Cognition Gap", in danger of becoming completely superfluous due to the lack of adequate nutrition caused by the sociopathy of the Oligarchy.

[@armstrong2052]

Vox is the laughing stock of journalism.

[@moghx2]

I don’t know...Buzzfeed is proving to be a good competitor

[@armstrong2052]

@@moghx2 true true 🤔🖖

[@factsoverfeelings1776]

BionaryDeath So is Slate, Buzzfeed, huffpo etc.

[@davyprendergast82]

they are runner up to vice

[@JerseySlayer]

Buzzfeed is worse just because of its influence in the UK and abroad... right now they're perpetuating political violence against right wingers running for office for MEP. Pieces of shit like Mark Distephano. Vox, Vice, Verge, Vrhi, Vuhsibol, and all the other V-cunts come in second.

[@CoverSlaves]

Ezra is unbearably smug

[@justinmack6351]

when was he convicted of libel ?

[@cordlefhrichter1520]

If someone is never convicted of murder, you can state with 100% certainty they are not a murderer.

[@smartphoto59]

Right back @ you.

[@zootsoot2006]

Sam Harris is not beyond a bit of smugness himself

[@stopthephilosophicalzombie9017]

+zoot soot Good point. He's the zero-point for sub-genius intellectual smugness. Utterly unremarkable as a scientist or philosopher yet has an ego that easily places him in proximity to real geniuses.

[@thatbuckmulligan]

How does Ezra use so many words to say nothing

[@Dan-uf2vh]

doctor in political correctness? or just call it sophistry

[@albertkim7882]

Anyone who listens to this entire exchange and only sides with Harris wasn’t objective in the slightest

[@thatbuckmulligan]

Albert Kim no, you’re just wrong.

[@jcee6886]

Journalism 101

[@albertkim7882]

Buck Mulligan How?

[@jmorra]

"two white guys talking." Good heavens. Once I hearEzra say that, I know what I'm in for.

[@glencampbell7702]

John Bosquet-Morra Ezra Klein is white presenting, but he has his own tribe to which he belongs.

[@athulfgeirsson]

two White guys talking... neither of whom are White.

[@athulfgeirsson]

It's peculiar how it's these certain non-Whites who are always so keen to draw attention to their "whiteness", exclusively towards "self"-derogatory ends.

[@AlecWelsh-ut7cc]

You had to give consideration to things that might make you feel uncomfortable?

[@HendersonHinchfinch]

Thought the exact same thing. Sam should have just said, “You know what? We should just stop here then. Take care Ezra”

[@mucksnapper6944]

Ezra was extremely obnoxious and drops repeated non-sequitur's to a VERY simple point Sam was trying to address.

[@mucksnapper6944]

Please explain, in any way shape or form that Sam Harris has committed bigotry. Do so without lies and stretching what he has personally said. I'll wait.

[@justinmack6351]

Sam Harris: "A 12 point environmental difference and a -2 genetic difference?? Sure that's possible but we want to know what's plausible..." And like that he dismisses the the idea that black people could be genetically smarter than white people because come on Ezra we are having a serious conversation here...

[@justinmack6351]

Face it Muck, harris is either a maniac or a dishonest actor, or flat out dumb

[@mucksnapper6944]

@justin How is that statement remotely bigoted.

[@mucksnapper6944]

Face it Justin, you guys have to twist and misconstrue the statements he makes to fit an outcry agenda that doesn't like what facts state because it is perceived as a hindrance to progress when it doesn't need to be.

[@mantrajojo4163]

Key difference here between Sam and Ezra. Sam only accuses Ezra for things he's said. Ezra accuses Sam of having specific thoughts and tries to discredit his character in various subtle ways.

[@ynotbme0]

insightful. thanks for pointing out what is going on here.

[@ozymandias6743]

That is a great, insightful call-out. Sam is talking science, Ezra is talking policy. Sam is discussing data and facts, Ezra makes pretentious policy arguments.

[@w.c.8465]

Sam: We’re just talking about science Ezra: Yeah but it’s offensive. Sam: It probably is, but can we just talk about it? Ezra: Well you didn’t discuss why there is a difference Sam: Yeah we were just discussing science. Now I have to defend myself because you painted me as a racist. That’s about it..

[@ynotbme0]

Perfect. You caught the essence of Ezra's position right there. Ezra's is saying that you can't offend me with science. Oh god help us … he's nearly as bad as the Pope was in the middle ages but thinks he is so modern because he is defending black people. That was so 60's Ezra. Most people now think that was a terrible thing that happened and would not tolerate a repeat. Science is science. If it doesn't mesh with your views that is an indication there is something wrong with your views. Move to the 2019's already.

[@captainron4924]

Don't you wish they would stop having a pissing contest of play on words and just say it lol? If I were one of these people under attack when I know I haven't done anyone wrong, just call the shit out clearly, plainly, calmly, don't allow this a walk-around-the-circle conversation.

[@blakesleyk.7166]

Sam speaking facts. Ezra speaks “My truth.” Coward. Call’s Sam “racialist.” At the very least, Ezra, have the courage of your convictions. Delusions.

[@John-g8n2q]

@@captainron4924 He did.

[@John-g8n2q]

The thing is, from a policy perspective, it doesn't really matter that much why there's a difference. Most people can look at the IQ differentials and understand the need to support anything that will elevate low IQ among all groups, particularly minorities. Things like better pre-natal care, better infant/childhood nutrition, K-12 education, etc. At the same time, the IQ differentials should help us understand why seeking a strict equality of outcomes, through Affirmative Action (racial preferences) or anything else, is wrongheaded. Seeking to reduce the number of Asians/Jews in mathematics/science departments simply to create more proportional representation there, or anywhere else, is clearly a terrible idea.

[@GrantValdes]

That up-speaking condescension in Klein's voice is infuriating to listen to for an extended period of time.

[@ruthkjeldsen5563]

so true!!! I am amazed Sam keeps his cool.

[@errorspending]

OMG I was going to comment the exact same thing. That tone of superiority is so grating!!!

[@superlifer1732]

Because he knows more than Harris.

[@larrydavid5650]

@@superlifer1732 lol nope

[@LAK_770]

​@@superlifer1732 He does not, and this can all be verified. Even if he did, which he demonstrably, factually does not, it doesn't justify or explain the upspeak. The upspeak is just one of many indicators of Klein's disingenuous bad-faith approach, his pretentiousness, and his nasty little attitude. He's not engaged in a legitimate debate - he literally announced in the beginning that he's 'framing' the discussion. He's just stonewalling Harris and pretending to be reasonable. He's not actually listening or logically responding to any of these points, it's all politics and PR for the sake of announcing his virtue and righteousness.

[@vipassana123]

While Sam's original email exchange with Ezra was a bit heated and inexcusable...this podcast proves that Sam was correct on Ezra Klein. Ezra Klein was outclassed and pretty much has no response other than "my identity politics is better than yours because you supported Murray".

[@TheArmskillerV2]

Donald Trump is Affirmative Action for the GOP Sorry to say but racism does not invalidate an argument. The only way to disprove an argument is to tackle it. Read the Bellcurve, research, find some evidence to disprove it and do it.

[@iss2075]

Donald Trump is Affirmative Action for the GOP, IQ data isn't random numbers, people takes tests to estimate their intelligence. The mean values come out different for each race. The results have been replicated many times. I think it is more hereditary than environmental, because the results are similar whether they're done in Sweden, US, South Africa, and the results are also similar 50 years ago to how they are today. So people can be raised in different cultures and different environments and their mean IQs stay roughly the same. And science is not a "white man" thing, East Asians, Arabs, Indians, Jews, etc. all play a part in the world of science. I would argue Ashkenazi Jews play a bigger role than whites at the moment. If you want to debunk IQ differences by race, my suggestion would be to try and devise your own intelligence tests. Intelligence tests similar to the IQ test where your level of education won't matter.

[@hayvebromier2158]

Data from studies on British GCSE (which are highly g-loaded and have about a 0.7 correlation with IQ, the same as the SAT, which has been used as an IQ proxy by leading hereditarian researchers like Jensen) test takers found that the children of unmixed African immigrants scored as well or better than British whites. The predictable response here is to say that the immigrants were highly selected. In fact, that's irrelevant. Especially because the children were unmixed, there's no conceivable way we would not have observed regression to the mean of the native stock population if the mainline hereditarian hypothesis were true. Again, the important point is not that the immigrants' children scored as well as British whites, *it's that they did not regress to their parents' native population's mean (and in fact, moved in the opposite direction).* Further data to dispel the inevitable "heritablity is more strongly express at a later age" counter: dera.ioe.ac.uk/7916/1/DCSF-RR029.pdf The way prominent hereditarian intellectuals, like Dr. James Thompson of University College London, have handled this data, is by granting Igbos and Yorubas (especially Igbos) from Nigeria special, exceptional genetic status. Even if that were the case, such a concession annihilates the evolutionary psychology arguments having to do with cold weather agriculture and the genetic argument that Neanderthal hybridization was essential (which are the only positions that have significant political potency when discussing immigration; all genetic further findings may as well be moot when an Igbo Nigerian looks pretty much indistinguishable from a Congolese to the average white American).

[@UrsaMajor5012]

@Donald trick Trump Has STD's from Stormy D. So what you're saying is that it's white peoples fault that you're stupid? Quite stupid in fact.

[@UrsaMajor5012]

@Donald trick Trump Has STD's from Stormy D. Nope. They just see an angry , racist, black man. Just like most racists in this country, black .

[@MrDanielWP]

1. Harris asks what was unfair. 2. Klein declares he wishes to frame the conversation. (Not needed, but why not?) 3. Klein goes on explaining how Harris sees Murray as having suffered similar character assassination as Harris himself has. (Which is true, in both the sense that Harris has been similarly treated and that it is character assassination.) 4. Klein states that, because of Harris's audience size, it is dangerous to be spreading his ideas. (Dangerous to whom or why is not explained.) 5. Harris acknowledges that he may have wrongly attributed bad faith to Klein. (He may have been correct, but he acknowledged his fallibility.) 6. Harris states that Klein's views are biased by his political views. (Which is true.) 7. Harris says he didn't preface the talk with Murray because he saw it as totally unnecessary virtue signaling. He regrets that. 8. Klein acknowledges that Harris is not racist. (Which is true.) 9. Klein criticizes the Harris for not speaking about the effect of racism on the IQ of Blacks in the US. (Which is both untrue and pointless.) 10. Klein says Murray uses his books to push his ideas into public discourse and attacks Murray's views on social policy. 11. Harris states that Klein is conflating Murray's view on policy and the science Murray was able to do. (Which, he is.) 12. Harris claims Klein has been extremely unfair, to both he and Murray, and cites an article Klein has written that directly accuses Harris and Murray of championing anti-black science. (Which Klein absolutely did and it was unfair.) 13. Klein then trys to say he doesn't want Murray silenced. He just wants Murray to besilenceed on this topic. 14. Klein then gets interrupted by Harris because Harris wants to preempt another conflation of policy and science. (Which he was correct to do.) 15. Klein then states he's let Harris have his say and that Harris is long-winded, too. (Klein is retardedly long-winded. Far worse than Harris.) 16. Klein then lectures Harris about Harris calling things what they are. 17. Harris then re-explains how Klein is conflating science and policy based on that science. 18. Harris explains he is a anti-racist, just as Klein in. 19. Harris declares racial equality should be the goal of a non-racist. 20. Klein accuses Harris of being a hypocrite about accusing him of confirmation bias. 21. Klein talks about Harris's hatred of identity politics biasing Harris's view. 22. Harris equates hating identity politics to agreeing with MLK on judging a person by their character, rather than skin color. (Which is sound.) 23. Klein accuses Harris of being a hypocrite again, because he says Harris is using identity politics, himself. Klein bases this on claim that Harris is anti-antiracist. (This is nonsensical because the irrationally of anti-racist people looking for racists is still irrationality.) 24. Klein then overtly accuses Harris of unaware of racial problems because he has had only 2 black guests. And, suggests Harris simply needs to speak to more black people. (This has no bearing on whether Charles Murray did good science. Irrelevant and irrationally anti-racist.) 46 min. Will continue.

[@lutze5086]

Love your work keep it up

[@TheBanderson22]

This was an excellent exegesis.

[@jengleheimerschmitt7941]

That was an excellent _Peer_ Review, Daniel. 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣😎 I'll show myself out ...

[@ryangibson609]

You are wrong about #9, Sam himself suggests that environmental factors (being subjected to racism, for instance) plays a role in determination of IQ. Otherwise, you're pretty spot on

[@ozymandias6743]

Written like an L3 case brief. Bravo! 😉

[@andrewbalderree338]

Ezra's voice = nails on a chalkboard. It's not the words, it's the smug inflections.... Also the words..

[@phenoix75]

I made it three sentences in and thought. This dude comes across as the single most condescending person I have ever heard. His cadence of speech says, “ I’m more educated than you, so you stupid person, just listen to my big words.” Like stereotyped high collar elites of the 1800s.

[@joshualyons4121]

This 1000%. This type of inflection is an automatic indication of someone with hard left interpretations.

[@stefpix]

@@joshualyons4121 Sam Harris is left as well. That tone by Ezra Klein sounds like privilege and condescension

[@ATMyles]

I got as far as 40:40 (with some fast-forwarding through EK’s monologues) until EK said “that’s *super* helpful.” He speaks like a teenage girl - without the reason and intelligence of a teenage girl.

[@Kevin_TN]

Not to mention the vocal fry noises.

[@allegrot438]

"You don't give short answers, yourself." But he gives relevant answers, Ezra. Smug sophist.

[@cmhardin37]

Lol exactly. Quality over quantity.

[@TheSycaman]

thats only partially true. he also gish gallop just at a slower pace. same point.

[@syndroid]

Verbal equity!!!!!!

[@captaincarl1]

The issue wasn't length of response either. This is a classic way Klein debates. Harris saw a long tirade about irrelevant "role of government" debates Murray had in an earlier book. Murray called for lower taxes. So that's what Klein is upset about. Harris advocates for higher taxes, more centralized gov't, more liberal social policies. But Klein was dragging Harris into that discussion. Which was 100% irrelevant.

[@AllYourMemeAreBelongToUs]

46:58

[@andrewmava272]

Sam is playing a truth game and Ezra is playing a power game. Science versus politics plain and simple.

[@captaincarl1]

He doesn't sound very powerful. Sounds like a worm.

[@paddypibblet846]

I'm starting to see that politics is worse than religion. Religion is filled with people who argue for what they actually believe in their books, while politicians are people who argue for stuff they don't believe in.

[@thernly]

I respectfully disagree. I enjoy both of these guys and agree with 90% of what each man said in this episode. I believe they’re both extraordinarily bright, articulate, critical thinkers. I’m politically more aligned with Sam, but I agree with Ezra that Sam is sometimes overly defensive about criticism.

[@andrewmava272]

I’m not a fan of either of them. That doesn’t mean they both can’t be right about certain things though. Ezra is a politically motivated sophist. He’s condescending to guests; yet, appealing to low IQ viewers who get emotional satisfaction watching him confuse the interviewee with sophistry, and disingenuous arguments. I watch a lot of his debates, plus he’s known for this. I don’t know you, so I am not including you in that assessment. I understand there’s a lot of intelligent people who can watch his debates and agree with some of his points and disagree with others, so I’m not including either one of us in that.

[@alvodin6197]

There is zero science and 100 % ideology. Its a s scienmtific as saying black people are genetically predisposed tobei=ng violent you fucking racist

[@SamHarris-zv4nd]

Reduction of the points of conflict: Point: Data strongly suggests that mean differences are both environmental and genetic Ezra response: What about environmental causes?? 😣 Point: To defame people who make strong scientific cases based on sound interpretation of the data is immoral and counterproductive Ezra response: Don't be so sensitive to being mischaracterized! What about the historical and current pain of others? Now if you think those responses are relevant, you aren't logical. Not even close. Especially the last one. Your tolerance to being slandered should not and cannot be measured by the physical pain of someone else's ancestor or the inequities of random groups. And if it were the case we would need to come up with a calculus to measure the pain values of a granddaughter of a holocaust survivor vs. a middle class college-educated Hispanic vs. a Montana farmboy with an abusive alcoholic father and no access to rich suburban education. It's madness. Sam doesn't need to make a mythical group chart of misfortune and find out where he falls before deciding to be offended by being misrepresented.

[@justinmack6351]

logic and reason are tools not features doug

[@smartphoto59]

Environmental causes are hardly equal if you consider: Slavery, Lynching, Jim Crow, Redlining & Economic Marginalization. "But the data" Harris says.

[@justinmack6351]

yup exactly. Harris got mercd in this discussion. The guy is a moron who only has the "reach" that he does because he has rich parents

[@MrJustSomeGuy87]

you know who disagrees with you? Richard Haier. He has been the editor-in-chief of the journal Intelligence since 2016. He is also the man who wrote those pieces in Quillette that Vox "refused" to publish defending Sam Harris. His write up is entitled "Sam Harris And Ezra Klein Finally Discuss Human Intelligence Without Calling Names." thefederalist.com/2018/04/10/sam-harris-ezra-klein-finally-discuss-human-intelligence-without-calling-names/ Also, your fantasy that if you took Klein seriously you would need to "come up with a calculus to measure the pain values" of disparate groups/individuals is completely baseless. It's vaguely similar to those who criticize utilitarianism and say it cannot succeed as a moral philosophy unless we construct a complete Hedonistic Calculus. As Haier points out: "The moral outrage many expressed after the Harris/Murray podcast, mostly based on a false reading or misreading of “The Bell Curve,” does not bode well for discussions to come. Harris, Andrew Sullivan, and David Reich have tried to make the case that such discussions are necessary and timely. *It won’t be easy, however, because the concerns about historical and political context Klein raises are real.*"

[@ccali327]

Yeah, not his best. Not a big fan of Klein, but it was pretty disingenuous of Harris to try to pull the Flynn card, and Klein had literally just spoken to Flynn, and it did not jive with what Harris claimed. There is a real discussion to be had here, but to claim that the data is clearly explaining that there is a heritable difference is just not true. The debate is one that should be had, but what you have here are two agenda pushers.

[@Bujienla]

I find it so amusing that they so politely and calmly insult each other. Sam less so, as he just keeps proving Ezra is misrepresenting him. Ezra, just keeps insisting everybody is a racist instead of himself. Also, Sam keeps saying stop conflating social policies with racial bias and Ezra's response is to just keep spouting the same thing over and over. Hard to respect anyone who have made up their mind and doesn't at least acknowledge the other side.

[@whenyoupulloutyourdickands4023]

it is true what the internet says about arguing with a stupid person, it's like playing chess with a pigeon.

[@nytewindz]

"In the interest of time and basic human sanity..." HAHHAHAHAHA! Sam is savage.

[@DDD033]

Donald trick Trump Has STD's from Stormy D. I don't think sam harris people care about personally expirienced racial injustice. Sam Harris is just an echo of their pre-existing belief and anything other than that is "biased/identity politics/political correctness" if it wasn't then they would listen to people other than their parroting opinions

[@AtenaHena]

i really dont think so as harris continously implies that klein is doing everything in bad faith

[@AtenaHena]

ya but i never said accusing someone of bad faith is bad on the part of the accuser, i was merely stating that sam harris made the accusation towards klein multiple times unlike klein who gave him the benefit of the doubt in response to the first comment

[@paulmurphy8993]

Harris just spent over an hour trying to explain to what sounds like a 16 year old why it's not a good idea to use emotion to justify public policy decisions. Unbelievable.

[@lanvywynn]

You’re being overly emotional

[@NoTengoIdeaGuey]

"Yeahs let's use racist pseudoscience to set policy instead!"

[@pizzaiq]

@@NoTengoIdeaGuey that's just ignorant

[@NoTengoIdeaGuey]

@@pizzaiq that's the alternative to using "emotion" to determine policy. Charles Murray is a racist advocate for destroying the welfare state.

[@maddhatter6938]

Jake Mobley If your suggestion is that IQ research is “racist pseudoscience”, we’re gonna need a big fat citation for that one chief.

[@kevinmm20]

Oh god.. Ezra used the "science has been wrong before" fallacy. This shows a complete misunderstanding of the process of science. The process of science ATTENUATES the errors within its theories. As Isaac Asimov put it, "When people thought the earth was flat, they were wrong. When people thought the earth was spherical, they were wrong. But if you think that thinking the earth is spherical is just as wrong as thinking the earth is flat, then your view is wronger than both of them put together."

[@thecuriousgorilla6005]

Ezra "why would I want keyhole surgery when bloodletting was so ineffective?" Klein.

[@tonyfromcharlotte6570]

The Earth is FLAT so that makes your comment the wrongest of all.

[@kevinmm20]

Tony FromCharlotte LOL Good one!

[@iss2075]

It's a fallacy that Christians used to use a lot. It's fascinating to see the leftists now acting like Christians, doing the exact same things that they used to ridicule Christians for. It seems people get irrational whenever science contradicts their ideology, no matter what their ideology is. I have a lot of respect for Sam Harris, he seems to honestly be searching for what is true. That's how it should be (the only disadvantage I can think of is that if the entire population did that, we might be changing our ideologies significantly every few years leading to a lot of cultural instability).

[@kevinmm20]

I Ss I agree, although regarding your last bit, what type of cultural instabilities are you imagining? The religious community seems far more unstable to me than the scientific community. The religious community is driven by ideology, whereas in the science community, truth is the focus.

[@franklindzioba13]

Ezra's take on Sam's bias is weak, akin to accusing Fire Fighters to be no better than Arsonists because the fire fighters are obsessed with fire...smh

[@meditation4632]

Charles Murray is not a firefighter

[@meditation4632]

@Major Coats I am not a leftist

[@meditation4632]

@Major Coats I guess from 10 words you have me all figured out. You should run for office. I'd vote for you!

[@Jim-mn7yq]

@@meditation4632 Thank you, Captain Obvious.

[@joseaguirre744]

Sam Harris wasn’t putting out the fire but watched the building crumble

[@CNFBGB]

Wow, I have a lot more respect for Harris after listening to this dialogue

[@77Night77Shade77]

You didn't before? Why not?

[@wooden2187]

@Marie Libra Socialism is an interesting framework, once a large enough amount of the workforce is made redundant through automation there won't be a requirement for capitalism. Only when the technology is advanced enough will we have a life of freedom and the choice to spend our days learning or living as we choose.

[@wooden2187]

@Marie Libra no offence taken. I wouldn't say it's evil in the purest philosophy, I think a great many demagogues in history have wielded it to extract votes while dictators have hidden behind to pacify their subjects. Obviously, capitalism is the stick which drives human advancement in a sort of Darwinist method, however if the balance does not keep inching toward socialism then we will have unrest by those left (pun intended) behind.

[@wooden2187]

@Marie Libra again, no offence taken however allow me to not be combative: I did stipulate a redundant workforce due to technology, ie: you cannot steal someone's work if they have not worked. Once capitalism is redundant (no one works a job), where to from there?

[@wooden2187]

@Marie Libra With a redundant workforce who is buying your product?

[@theknightswhosay]

Klein lies about what Harris says moments after hearing it.

[@eoinoconnell185]

''So what you're saying is ...''

[@MrNaporowski]

Strawmanning... one of the little tricks used by people who either don't have enough brain cells to develop their own solid argument or they realise that their argument lacks merit. One of SJW favourites. If at all, sensible people use steelmanning, but you won't find any of those among the leftards, of course.

[@slyjokerg]

Yep. Constantly. It happens with these clowns over and over and over again. Sam can try to have an honest interaction with someone to correct what he will superficially treat as misconceptions/confusion/errors, and after he tells them that their assumptions/conclusions about his points/meaning are wrong, they repeat the exact same thing. He had a long sit down with Cenk Uygur, and Cenk pretended to be straightened out about the nonsense he had said about Sam, and on the next TYT show during which he mentioned Sam, he just repeated the same lies about Harris, as if they had never spoken about any of it. Sometimes people who are on the right side of all sorts of things are so driven and tunnel visioned by an agenda that they can't think or operate objectively or honestly on a particular issue.

[@TurinTuramber]

Is this conversation a test to see if Sam will ever hit soneone in the face?

[@FromDallas]

This made me LOL more than anything under this video. ROFLMAO.

[@abettermind]

It's a test to see how much I love my phone.

[@eb60lp]

Sam Harris, as much as I respect him is wrong on this one. Charles Murray and his nature over nurture when it comes to IQ flys in the face of recent scientific findings in fields like epigenetics. Research it don’t take my word for it. The fact is there is more genetic variation within so called racial groups than between. This is mainly because race is a false dichotomy. It puts people of different populations together based off of superficial traits like skin color. Are you kidding me? No wonder the results don’t follow. It’s bad science.

[@eriksjud9465]

This guy ezra is dishonest, he doesnt want to see anything from anyones perspective, he just wants you to be a good little boy and listen to him, he clearly knows whats best for all of us.

[@uscbro69]

@@eb60lp nobody is saying skin color makes the difference. The operative trait is not skin color, but culture. Skin color just happens to be the most visible signal of which culture you belong to (on average of course).

[@abhinxndh]

Ezra : you have 120 episodes..... I may be wrong SH : It's amazing you find this relevant. But go ahead.....

[@FromDallas]

Freaking loved that part "It's amazing you find this relevant", ROFLMAO.

[@kensington1199]

He already knew where he was going... 😂😂😂

[@matthewharris8819]

And then showed why it was relevant. Good stuff. Sam Harris simply doesnt invite black people into his show if he can avoid it.

[@jackjurphy5020]

@@matthewharris8819 it’s amazing you could have this take. It really shows the divide in IQ

[@matthewharris8819]

@@jackjurphy5020 facts are facts. Sam Harris pushes debunked race science and avoids having black people on his show. Draw your own conclusions.

[@jimdandy9671]

Summary of Ezra Klein argument; "do not speak the truth, if it may hurt someone's feelings".

[@travisfitzwater8093]

Dude Ezra is snowballing Sam. Ezra wrestles the focus from UBI and the continuance of affirmative action by intimating social spending will lose Billions under UBI. Never mind the fact that this prognosis only comes through Murray's conception of the form UBI takes. Ezra's opposed to the reality that UBI will result, unquestionably, in a large increase in so-called "social spending." He wants to keep Sam mired in the Murray mess. Sam, doesn't seem to catch onto this. It's disturbing that Ezra tells Sam white guys aren't positioned to speak about these things. The question of inequality concerns as many white people as it does black people. The debate ought to be over how we implement UBI in addition to maintaining affirmative action efforts. Ezra is obfuscating, Sam shouldn't have him on again.

[@dwaynethomas4622]

Do you not understand how important his thoughts are

[@summerrr1]

Dwayne Thomas No dumb ass

[@MackTheTemp1]

He doesn't seem to have any issues by manipulating people using anger. I do think he genuinely cares more about hurt feelings than Sam.

[@FreedomOfTħought]

The other and perhaps more fundamental problem in this discussion between Harris and Ezra is that Ezra is keen to keep throwing American history at Harris without realising that the science being discussed is also true and accurate OUTSIDE the US. Even in countries such as Ethiopia that has not experienced slavery at all in its entire history. The truth is that these differences are real and are backed by the science.

[@if-not-now]

This is what I learned from listening: There are very few people more disingenuous than Ezra Klein

[@nicholashernandez4611]

Zachary Rodrigues The greatest secret to being disingenuous is to believe you never deceive anyone. To fool the masses, first you must fool yourself. After that, you must read. Read anything that upholds your lies. After that, articulate your delusions so well that even those that disagree to your argument must believe your conviction. Finally, strategize. The hardest part about being disingenuous is keeping up with your own lies over time. The best and most sane way to cover yourself from your own traps is to lie as little as possible by saying as little as possible. Emotional pleading, begging the question, non sequitors, misdirection, shifting the burden of proof, anything that keeps you from saying something that makes you look bad. People live their whole lives lying without saying a word. Exposing their deceit is the only way to rout it out. Sorry for the rant.

[@elih9700]

@@nicholashernandez4611 Michael Eric Dyson in a nutshell.

[@DrCorvid]

So is he in the terlet or toilet hehe? An Archie Bunker quip.

[@dlw2982]

Thats qhat ypu got from this.....perhaps listen again???

[@if-not-now]

Davon Weeks perhaps learn to spell

[@AJHart-eg1ys]

SAM: This is what you've actually WRITTEN and SAID. EZRA: This is what I believe you THINK.

[@Broskis21]

bruh so true

[@Monolith174]

This is amazing. I love when people who think they're on Sam's level get demolished when they're face-to-face with the man.

[@MavMelodic]

Problem with our society in a nutshell: idealogues like Klein now run the traditional sense making apparatus of our culture, journalism. People like Klein aren’t actually interested in rational dialogue, only if it furthers their end. They’re closer to religious zealots and that should worry us.

[@NoTengoIdeaGuey]

It'd be cool if you could even come up with an actual critique of what he said instead parroting the same Anti SJW Bingo card lines you've heard before.

[@oppothumbs1]

@@NoTengoIdeaGuey We hold Eric's truths to be self-evident. Klein feels ethically righteous but doesn't concern himself with the repercussions of correcting all these wrong. Ideology on the far left or far right tend to hamstring good reasoning. To try to minimum IQ tests so that everyone is the same is shameful absurd excuse-making . Identical Twin separated at birth studies show genetics is general going to be more important that environment. If you are an ID Twin and your IQ is 90 the chances you twin raised in a very difference environment will be within a couple points of 90 is great. Studies of difference of babies of different races show many difference but OF COURSE THE STUDIES ARE REPRESSED.. one can't find them. Lots of information goes missing in the Leftist world, not that the Right wouldn't try the same thing but they don't make up but a small part of the media bias ... talk radio, Fox news, etc. There are no tests that show you can narrow the IQ differences much just whites can't catch up to Pacific Rim Asian IQ's. I would personally love for it to be mostly environment. Whenever we have smart Jews or Asians we usually think but they are pushed by parents to excel. This is nonsense. You can't push someone with an IQ of 90 to be a doctor or to excel in school. are And sure Whites can do better than Asians in some area but P-R Asian have better memories, which is the foundation of all learning. I will admit that IQ test are generally not perfect - most they don't test memory very well.

[@jaykay6387]

His ascension to headlining status at the NYT is unfortunately confirmation that the world will be over soon.

[@ramseylarson8307]

Exactly right!

[@spazzpeddlerclosing]

@@oppothumbs1

[@snarkyblue1152]

I can actually HEAR the soy in Ezra Klein's voice.

[@padarousou]

“I’VE GIVEN YOU TIME TO SPEAK SAM”

[@Brosky1998]

Lmao seriously

[@michaellamont2605]

Soyciopath

[@morelhunter3966]

Michael Lamont underrated comment

[@morelhunter3966]

Joanne Wardell Feminist?

[@keithwriter1591]

Ezra Klein speaks in exactly the same style as Nathan Rambukkana and the Bald Transgender Professor who debated Jordan Peterson.

[@oaxacachaka]

because your pride won't let you consider alternatives.

[@xavier6037]

The course lecturer you are referring to is Nicholas Matte

[@oaxacachaka]

Donald Trump is Affirmative Action for the GOP that isn’t what he said

[@benaud5790]

Why is Charles Murray Racist?

[@theknightswhosay]

Benaud because he says things the left doesn't want hear

[@harrycox6303]

It's like Ezra is arguing against a ghost of Sam that Ezra himself conjured up.

[@publius4009]

That's called a straw man identity attack.

[@mattytrane]

@@publius4009 you're conflating straw man and ad hominem, these are discrete logical fallacies

[@publius4009]

@@mattytrane No, ad hominem is to insult the individual. Straw man is to attack an argument that is similar but not identical to the one posed by Sam in this case.

[@jengleheimerschmitt7941]

"I would like to start out by framing this conversation with the unfounded premise that you lack empathy, that you are wrong and bad, and that I am virtuous and therefore correct." Also, "I should not be criticized for slandering you and Murray because you said mean things about me, like that I am committing slander." Also, "you should not criticize identity politcs in others, because you have a bias towards your tribe of "people that care about objective truth and honesty.""

[@Saddamuel]

I believe Bulverism is a word to describe presupposing someone is wrong and then explaining the psychological reason why they are wrong. Klein immediately starts with appeals to emotion, talking about where Harris' empathy lies. This is as if to suggest that Sam Harris is undeniably wrong but the reason he is wrong is some dark hidden sympathy for bigotry.

[@jarvisdavis5033]

Ezra Klein is a sophist.

[@hayvebromier2158]

Why.

[@mrblank-zh1xy]

Ship of Theseus, Post Hoc ergo Propter Hoc, Circular Argument, Weasel Words

[@JohnSmith-xb5wq]

It pays the bills.

[@MElixirDNB]

Good call

[@snowboarder50000]

Youre a stephan molyneux listener arent you? im able to tell so easily based on vocabulary and word use.

[@kroon275]

As a working-class-poor white man, who works 2 jobs and 50hrs per week and cant afford to buy a house, I am beyond sick of being told by the white middle classes (like this Ezra guy) that not only am i privileged, but i am also inherently and irredeemably racist 😒😒 And if i was a black man in the same position id also be more than sick of these same middle class whites unwantedly taking my side in an arguement that THEY started on my behalf!! 😒

[@MrDanielWP]

Klein isn't Middle class. He's rich and trying to profit by engaging in an argument, on behalf of another group, that he has no credibility in.

[@thatsterroristsbro7855]

Given the kind of society we live in, are raised and socialised in, why would we not have racial biases and prejudices that would directly, and indirectly, inform moralised preferential treatment of whites over blacks? It's perfectly reasonable to conclude that if one is shaped by their environment, and the environment is morally preferential of one ethnicity at the expense of another then one will be morally preferential of one ethnicity at the expense of another. So, you'd have to disseminate this and either refute premise: a) that the environment does not shape our moral preferences; b) that our moral preferences do not influence our treatment of others; and/or c) the environment is not morally preferential..... which premise would you like to tackle in the syllogism first? I am not trying to be edgy or "destroy" you with "facts and logic". If you care to listen to reasons(this is what to be reasonable means) then I invite you to reasons for your consideration. Hopefully you are well, and respond to my invitation.

[@giraffediety2477]

@@thatsterroristsbro7855 i think the most complete answer is C) our society isn't morally preferential based on race

[@timothysmith8340]

@@thatsterroristsbro7855 I don’t think the commenter is debating on the effects of environment on a person. Although they might be and as such we have to acknowledge other influences in our environment along with race. And as Sam Harris discusses, this is beside the point for him. His concern is that when you go looking for racist answers to questions then you run the danger of ‘finding’ them everywhere because the starting point biases the interpretation of the data. And with a socially charged ‘environment’ then true conversation about the data is lost in favor of trendy scholarship. And this reality can, not will, lead to further harm rather than solving issues of race. I believe John McWhorter puts it much more succinctly than myself. Not arguing here, but inputting Sam’s point here.

[@guitarguy9720]

Stop whining.

[@bradpopwell7053]

On A Topic Of Studied Science: “You didn’t talk about Jim Crow or Racism” Yes...because the topic was on scientific data and observation...

[@kenthomson4627]

Brad Popwell Precisely! Thank you.

[@Frontline_view_kaiser]

You can not adress race in the US without adressing white people's historical oppression of blacks. Looking at race from a neutral or objective standpoint is wrongthink, that will lead to outcomes that are not politically desirable and might challenge the dominant narrative.

[@candirockstar135]

That's precisely the point, data loses a lot of relevance absent context.

[@ramigilneas9274]

@@candirockstar135 The problem is that we can’t even acknowledge that the data looks the way it looks. That would be the first step before we can even begin to determine why the data looks that way.

[@afriedli]

Should be titled "Sam Harris in conversation with a serpent".

[@spinningorb]

A lot of supremacists appear to be fans of Harris.

[@afriedli]

@@spinningorb Yeah I heard that too. Apparently his podcasts are required listening at Klan meetings these days.

[@spinningorb]

@@thegooglearchipelago8253 LOL - indeed.

[@heraclitusblacking1293]

@@thegooglearchipelago8253 Jews may be accepted as white, as I have been my whole life.

[@michaellamont2605]

@@spinningorb supremacists? You mean like the pareto distribution? You mean Hussain Bolt is Faster at running than Sam Harris?

[@gargantuan4696]

Instead of being 60% water, Ezra is 60% soy

[@abhimanyukarnawat7441]

Lmao

[@atheistbear2500]

This was tedious but important. Sam offered endless examples of genetic expression and Ezra wasn't comfortable discussing any of it. Every year DNA sequencing offers more and more insight on medical treatments, and eventually mental health will be revolutionized by this knowledge as well. Even in a benign hypothetical context, Ezra still viewed the topic as socially dangerous-which is both condescending and antithetical to his political goals.

[@BareknuckleBill]

Sam offered a load of bullshit as usual. It's amazing how you Sam Harris cultists simply ignore that according to actual scientists Harris is the one who misrepresented science, not Ezra.

[@cordlefhrichter1520]

BareknuckleBill, sources?

[@aliofly]

what the hell are you talking about?!

[@John_John121]

I had no idea what Ezra looked like. After hearing his voice, I did a Google search and he looks exactly what I thought he would look like.

[@abettermind]

Same, and same.

[@John_John121]

listening to Sam makes me think about what he's saying and contemplate how I feel about what he's saying. As soon as Ezra starts speaking I want to punch him in the face.

[@jtstevenson81]

Leon: I didn't know what he looked like either, but based on the way he sounds and the bog standard leftist drivel he churns out, I always assumed he looked like this: www.nydailynews.com/resizer/wMma16vkBa9v6TOimcaPnYra7EE=/1200x0/top/arc-anglerfish-arc2-prod-tronc.s3.amazonaws.com/public/7LVOBTUFTTDAMMNPC3IE7XBWWM.jpg

[@eb60lp]

Ad Hominem nonsense.

[@John_John121]

LP I guess if he made some actual points during this discussion there would be something else to attack.

[@jovanbogdanovic8001]

I don't know too much about Sam and I know even less about Ezra, but Ezra (to use a sporting term) is more interested in playing the man instead of the ball.

[@AMpufnstuf]

He sounds like an NYC college kid who "plays the man" every month for his loft rent. Sam's biggest weakness is giving people with almost no fan base a huge audience just because they sent lies about him through twitter. You can only stick to the topic so much. There will always be a chunk of the audience who makes up their mind based on identity politics, and whatever this Ezra guy claims to represent they will now be glad they can cheer for it on one more show.

[@Toestubber]

Klein's singsong NPR voice, while casually slinging his non sequiturds, is enraging.

[@jimmyrustler9980]

What does NPR mean?

[@steven-el3sw]

National Public Radio.

[@charlescates5703]

Nonsequiturds.. lmao

[@SuchaDoofus]

I am so angry right now.

[@matthewharris8819]

@@SuchaDoofus Yeah? Mad that your racism is being suitably mocked? Too bad. I'd say go beat your girlfriend over it, but you don't have one, do you?

[@agt5jx87]

I’m a black dude. Ezra doesn’t know anything about black life. He just tryin to look good; Vox got him whipped... shit’s pathetic. Sam is a solid guy. Very smart and misunderstood. Vox trying to get paid off his reputation.

[@mosopinie4097]

bignose90 fake acount troll alert*

[@agt5jx87]

Damn. How will I ever go on? Exposed for the fraud I am. Don’t mess with Mo’s boiii. Genius detective work.

[@mosopinie4097]

bignose90 Thnx ^^

[@agt5jx87]

Donald Trump is Affirmative Action for the GOP say what??!! If I’m not black, then you sir must also not be black. And since we are both not black... then what’s going on??? I’m dizzy.

[@agt5jx87]

Donald Trump is Affirmative Action for the GOP I like your name. Now, we are back to where we started. We are both black again, according to your logic :)

[@peterbabicki8252]

Never until now have I heard someone with a punchable voice.

[@elkarion]

It's called eighteen bitchy girl voice.

[@trailguy]

Ezra's strategy was clearly to keep the conversation away from science and to focus on communication and politics. it's not difficult to see why.

[@Alien_civilizations]

Because you can't have a debate on science without factoring in the social science aspects of it considering the history of global racial geopolitics

[@adagal13]

Ezra is so smug and dishonest it makes it very difficult to listen to him speak.

[@AlbDavidT505]

_"Ezra is so smug and dishonest it makes it very difficult to listen to him squeak"_ ...I mean speak

[@utavatar]

don't you just love it when someone with no intimate knowledge of you or the content of your consciousness tells you what's really going on in your head and heart.

[@ollielon5926]

Yeah, Sam Harris can be like that sometimes.

[@juanzavala9023]

Literally most psychiatrists lol

[@kevinhong9868]

It's like Sam, the father, was speaking to his child, Ezra who just learned about a new social issue at school

[@jeanraspail2979]

Is vocal fry a standard feature of SJWs?

[@Astropeleki]

Almost as much as the misuse of the word "literally"

[@tyty8484]

It's part of the Smug problem. They have their heads so far up their own ass that it forces their vocal chords shut. (Specifically, it's to simulate male dominance... *Simulate*) Soyboy problems.

[@tyty8484]

@@jf9593 "People who seemed indistinguishable" LOL, first of all there are very very very few gay men who seem indistinguishable. I personally believe homosexuality in men (and only men) has at least a genetic component if not completely hereditary. And this produces a gay phenotype with many easily noticeable and some not so noticeable characteristics. i.e.: The gay voice. 2nd, what does this have to do with vocal fry. From what I've seen, gay dudes in general are way more masculine than the vocal fry, vitrue signaling, male feminist, "why won't she touch my peepee after all i've done for wahmen", soy boys.

[@elkabongg2716]

The inflection is a simple condescension technique.

[@davidschmidt2081]

Idk but I think girls voices, and I mean real females btw lol, that have some vocal fry are attractive.

[@GozerTheGozerian]

Ezra Klein represents everything that's wrong with journalism these days. He's NOT a journalist. He's an ideologue who doesn't have an original thought on anything.

[@JerseySlayer]

They're all activists. Buzzfeed. Vox. Vice. The Verge. The Guardian. HuffPo. And they're all going out of business, Buzzfeed would be if Amazon wasn't a flaming pile of fuckery, propping them up for good press.

[@GozerTheGozerian]

@@JerseySlayer Same with the Washington Post, which Bezos acquired as his personal vanity publication espousing his personal interests.

[@aaronb7270]

This video should be called The Ezra Klein Challenge. See how far you can get!

[@tux1968]

5 minutes in, dumped a bucket of ice on my head.

[@lewisbracken5520]

6 minutes. i'm out.

[@mantrajojo4163]

Only 1:30 I can't stand the condescending micro-chuckle between every clause.

[@bryanedds8922]

I just skip all the Ezra parts.

[@tural7355]

I’m halfway... not sure how I’m going to survive the rest

[@theknightswhosay]

1:04:40 Ezra says it's bad faith for Sam Harris to allow someone more knowledgeable about the topic to present his point of view. If there were a far-left gospel it would say, "you shan't know the truth for the truth is problematic."

[@jackoflava]

Nothing Klein said about Murray's career seemed to faze Harris. Murray has a clear agenda and is anything but an objective gatherer of "facts". Harris is almost psychotically naive.

[@tonycatman]

After the email exchange, I was expecting to hear someone reasonable. But Ezra is a virtue-signalling, smug git. It is annoying that Ezra is also pretty smart, and good at the process of debate. He's probably won almost every debate he has ever had with his technique and wit, and never had to face the prospect of changing his mind, or backing down. This is probably why he has managed to convince himself that he has the moral high ground, and why he thinks he can lecture Harris on the nature of his character.

[@gingerbard2607]

Admirable how Harris remains calm in the face of Klein's propensity for incredulous pseudo-laughter.

[@adamkennylau7950]

Sam: Fact...fact...fact... Ezra: virtue signal... virtue signal...virtue signal.

[@shaunpatrick8345]

Accepting the truth of IQ is not harmful. It actually reduces harm by taking away the justification for racist policies like affirmative action and anything based on "disparate impact". Klein is the one promoting an ideology that causes harm.

[@AbbeyRoad69147]

@Donald trick Trump Has STD's from Stormy D. Nope. You havnt read the science on this issue. All personality traits are at least 50% genetic. IQ is more than 70% genetic.

[@MElixirDNB]

@Donald trick Trump Has STD's from Stormy D. it's not a lie you're a moron

[@AbbeyRoad69147]

@Donald trick Trump Has STD's from Stormy D. It is not a lie. It is scientifically proven. See www.nature.com/articles/ng.3285

[@MasculinityMindset]

@Donald trick Trump Has STD's from Stormy D. Lol, Trump 2020 ,)

[@victorvelie3980]

@@AbbeyRoad69147 all traits in general are, at their core, genetic because without genes you wouldn't exist lol, I think you mean the variance in those traits is genetic, and honestly, that percentage changes based on how extreme the environmental factors are. If you compared an upper-class, well-educated student with someone who was kept in a box with no human contact for most of their childhood, the difference in IQ would be almost entirely environmental, but for two people with fairly similar childhoods and prenatal conditions, you would expect the difference in IQ to be mostly genetic. The Flynn effect demonstrated approximately a 20 IQ point difference between the US population in the early 1930s as compared to the population around 2000. Basically IQ is mostly useful for measuring genetic potential in subjects with very similar environments.

[@xit1254]

40:45 Klein starts his pop psychology analysis of Harris.

[@ganzewelt1896]

And insults on his personality

[@AMpufnstuf]

My turn to try that game out: Ezra Klein sucks major dick and doesn't care about science. He cares about creating new class wars that push the real class war out of the way. This is likely the summary of his actual job.

[@omnipitous4648]

The best discussion of intelligence I have ever heard. Sam is the obvious unbiased person here.

[@theMidsizeLebowski]

Ezra "I spoke with him yesterday" Klein

[@MrShreddykruger]

No shit😂😂😂 “as of Monday”....

[@petesmith2650]

Klein's condescending tone reveals his ill-will.

[@matthewharris8819]

Sam Harris is being treated with all the respect a racist pseudo scientist deserves. Absolutely none.

[@WickedZZzY]

Sam: We need to look at the data. Ezra: You're propagating racism. Sam: It's wrong to call me a racist. Ezra: By defending yourself, you are demonstrating your racism.

[@Chintmaster]

Is there anything beyond the 20 minute mark that is worth hearing? Seems like the same old shit to me so far, kinda irritates me to hear it once again.

[@biggieb8900]

I listened to the entire thing and my answer is no. I can sum this up like this: Ezra thinks Sam shouldn't talk about the data because it makes people upset and if he must then he needs to talk to more black people. He seems to believe that white people are incapable of having an unbiased perspective on this. Indeed, he insists Sam himself is highly biased, implying but not explicitly saying he is racially biased and motivated. As far as the data themselves, Ezra believes that poor performance is better explained by nurture than nature. As an example, he uses the fact that black children raised in 6 figure households are in similar environments to white children raised in poor households as an argument that nature is not what is at play. He believes the history of the U.S. is more than enough of an explanation of world wide disparities among the races, a claim I cannot believe Sam did not challenge but here we are.

[@Chintmaster]

I think Sam might largely agree with him on the causes, and that's why he didn't push back. My perception of this whole controversy is that one side finds the idea that genetics affect intelligence to be so appalling that they must derail the conversation whenever it's being had. It's obvious DNA and intelligence are related, the conversation is to what extent and what to do about it. Charles Darwin also made people uncomfortable, can you imagine where we'd be if creationists were the ones allowed to set the rules on how natural selection was discussed?

[@ganonn]

Yeah, agreed - not worth the time. Sam is biased, but understands how that bias affects his decisions and his interpretation of the world, as best as one can, and actively seeks to counter that bias with information and experiences. Ezra has those same biases, but can't materially separate himself from his bias to come to an understanding. From the beginning, Harris admits he was seeking conflict, and I'd judge that he was looking forward to the confrontation. That brought him to the table with a willingness to accept another viewpoint, without even the appearance of skepticism, provided Klein had the willingness to break down why Sam was wrong.

[@jaycarson9658]

you really think white people have no biases? Complete angels eh? Let alone someone who chums it up with a known white supremacist like Murray. Get out your bubbles

[@JordanHochstetler90]

Yeah, basically Ezra knows what Sam is... I think you have a bias @37:25 .......... ORRRR maybe a sensitivity of racism. - Please message me for more information.

[@oldpariah]

This is a study in erudite argument, what magnificent style!

[@Radeohead]

As a Neuropsychologist and someone who completed a doctoral dissertation on iq and acculturation, my review of the data, including what is in the Bell Curve, supports more of Ezras cautiousness about the IQ, race, and social policy or ideology

[@rlucas7374]

Feel free to post a link to this dissertation. You won't, because you are full of shit.

[@neoepicurean3772]

0:13:38 This is Ezra's basic objection. That Murray suggests an economic principle (which no one is arguing would not be effective), to de-incentivise child birth of poor/low IQ children. Removing welfare. Of course this would be a harsh thing to do for some generations, but what is the alternative? That you give welfare to people, that can't afford to provide for children, and offer the incentive and ability to reproduce, exponentially? This isn't about race. I say the same thing over here in Wales. Welfare has destroyed my area, all white. Murray is actually trying to find solutions to end poverty, Klein is just being leftist, standing up for the welfare state and pulling the race card to shut down 'good faith' discussion.

[@cordlefhrichter1520]

Well put.

[@moreyladini7708]

Neo-E: Poverty rate of black, two-parent families: 7% Poverty rate of white, single moms: 22% single mom households: 72% black 25% white 15% asian

[@neoepicurean3772]

But as Klein will say, correlation does not imply causation. There is undoubtedly a bad cycle of poverty, drugs and destructive culture in the black communities. Some of which could cause low IQ, some of which can reflect it. I think that welfare is at the route of the problem. If people had to secure an income to get basic necessities, they'd think twice before having a child that they can't feed. I understand that it's a bit too late to just stop welfare now, but policy should be aimed at ended that poverty trap, as Murray suggests (although I've never read Murray, just taking what Klein said he said).

[@micahjohnsonboxing6409]

I feel like this and Harris miss exactly how bad schools in the bad areas are and how police in USA can take away Black fathers whenever they want.

[@chadfolzenlogel8739]

@@micahjohnsonboxing6409police just show up to take black father's away? That's your idea on what has destroyed the black community in the US? Lmfao Just by saying that you show that you have no idea of the reality of the situation. As if these men were law abiding, devoted father's in the first place but the big bad police stopped them from being so. They fucked it up themselves by breaking the law, most likely repeatedly to land themselves a hefty prison term. You need to try and think beyond the extremely short sided view you appear to have about this.

[@WhtetstoneFlunky]

The question seems to be: is political correctness necessary when engaging in the subject of race, be it social, scientific, or in any other manner? I actually do not know the answer. But I do not think a person should be vilified for thinking the time has come to examine such questions. It may be a person thinks that time has not yet come, but crucfying someone for thinking that time has arrived, is perhaps unfair. It is not racism. It is examining difficult questions. On the other hand, Sam Harris needs to steel himself from criticism. As opinionated as he is, he is going to receive some knocks.

[@micahjohnsonboxing6409]

Sam has always been soft when confronted. He can't justify what he says.

[@jm123456789101112]

Sam is freaked out about preserving his reputation? Maybe it’s a bad idea in that case to defend the ideas of a guy who equates race with IQ and who burned crosses as a young man ...

[@Saddamuel]

@4:12 Ezra Klein: "I think the fact that we are two Jewish guys talking about how growing up non-Jewish in America affects your life and cognitive development is a problem" - I'm sick of this nonsense and I'm Jewish. If racism is a problem then the solution is to be less tribal and to treat people as individuals. I will endorse no racial politics beyond a politics that opposes racial politics and policies. (correction: in this original version of the comment we wrote Jewish instead of white)

[@EyebelieveTheNarrative]

Ezra Kline makes the best argument for libertarianism I have ever heard. Who wants that moral busy body in control of their life?

[@dondajulah4168]

Master class in passive aggressive argumentation

[@borretniw7603]

Ezra talking to Sam like he caught a child misbehaving. Telling a man with a 30 year meditation practice that hes not introspective enough is a pretty wild thing to say.

[@alexgibson2871]

Ezra is so slippery, there are times when he can arrive at nuance, and also times where can make very sophisticated passive aggressive inferences that Sam is a bad person or somehow blind to implications. Ezra sounds like he's on the edge of disbelief or laughter the whole time.

[@deliezer]

They both spend more time analyzing each others debating style than the actual question at hand.

[@Justyburger]

I got up to 58 mins and could not take any more of that irritating shit Ezra (I think I'm so smart) Klein. Sam Harris is way way above his intellect and more importantly, a much nicer person.

[@louiset3438]

Abso-freakin-lutely!!!

[@critharchie8043]

"Ezra had some pretty good points' -literally not a single person in this comment section

[@mochilover7053]

That just means you are all Sam Harris fans.

[@matthewharris8819]

All a bunch of alt right incels brigading a comment section proves is that alt right incels can brigade a comment section.

[@Jim-mn7yq]

Can Ezra point to any scientific study that supports his underlying argument that modern day black folk are deleteriously affected by their environment?And if so, to what degree?

[@Saddamuel]

"It's just a disagreement" says Ezra Klein. But it's a disagreement where the consequences of victory for one side of this disagreement could be utter destruction of the other side. It isn't that their ideas would not enacted, it's that they would be labelled with a charge that can make one persona non grata in much of the Western world. "You think you're a reasonable person but I think you're a racist (addendum: racists aren't welcome)". Perhaps this can clarify it: imagine if being to the left of Rand Paul was perceived as being as morally reprehensible as being a thief and a murderer. Imagine if being an Atheist was perceived as being as inhuman as being a rapist. "You think you're a reasonable person who sees no evidence for god, I think you're a reprobate and if I had my way your kind would have no place in polite society, in universities, in any job... it's just a disagreement". The charge of racism can be a moral stain akin to being an unrepentant murderer. Imagine a man wrongly convicted of murder who has served his time and been released but where the entirety of society still believes he is guilty and treats him as such - these are the consequences Sam Harris and Charles Murray perceive.

[@solarnaut]

Sam plays the role of Lindsay Shepard Charles is in the role of a Jordan Peterson video Ezra plays Lindsay's "contexualizing" SJW/ PC professor

[@justinmack6351]

well looks like you have your narrative in tact, no sense in having a discussion.

[@hustler3of4culture3]

sol rayz why are context and "dispassionate"ness mutually exclusive.

[@justinmack6351]

Brad Smith, sorry i must not be deep enough into your bubble to have any idea what you just said.

[@John-g8n2q]

These two missed a great opportunity for convergence. One surprising (as a conservative) truth I took from The Bell Curve, which is touched on in the discussion, is that because not everyone has the same cognitive ability, inequality of outcomes is not in fact completely fair, or due to voluntary effort. And that government support programs are in fact a necessity for those intellectually disadvantaged. (Though not for the average person, who can generally manage their own lives perfectly fine.) Klein should realize how such cognitive research can in fact therefore support redistributionist policies, and argue against racist arguments regarding laziness and merit, even if they support the idea of certain racial differences (on average). While ignoring such research allows the idea of pure deserving meritocracy to persist, which undercuts any redistributionist position. The problem for the Left is that the data/science also undercuts the idea that we should have proportional representation in every profession/field, and truly equal average incomes/outcomes across groups, at least at this point in time. (Such equality might be achievable in a reasonably free society down the road with better pre-natal care, infant nutrition, etc., if that can lead to more equal intellectual ability on average.) And the Left is unwilling to abandon that goal of fairly sudden equality of outcomes.

[@antanaskiselis7919]

Erza sounds like an idealogue. He is convinced that his social policies are correct no matter what and anyone, anyone who dares to suggest otherwise is somehow implicitly evil. And everything, everything, must boil down to it. You don't get full colors of it, because Sam is central-left himself so they kinda get it easy. But you can hear how he reacts to any mention of possibility that some of the social spending / programs might be cut. Possibility of affirmitive action not being seen as good? Outrageous! How dares he! Anything which does not help his narrative or does not go through his picked framing is by default 'problematic'. Doesn't matter that he has to live with around half or even more people who do not share the same view as he does, he prefers to see them as enemies instead of people with whom he have to find a way to live together and find compromises. And on top of that he seems to insist that everyone is operating on the same basis like he does. Being unable to grapple with the thought that there might be people who do not subscribe to ideologies and wishful thinking, while recognizing the temptation of it and wishing whole world being that 'easy' in a way. As Sam talks at very end. Man, that's frustrating. And this position is something I can relate when you encounter people trying you to fault for having evidence based beliefs which you rather not have, but can't if you care yourself to remain intellectually honest about reality at large. And being able to recognize that problems for that they are without falling back to somewhat infantile idealism that few policies can fix everything if we would just have our way with the politics without those pesky right-wing and centrist or even center-left people for that matter saying other kind of things.

[@roberthermens904]

Can I suggest Dr. Thomas Sowell as an authority on the subject of intellectuals and race?

[@williamtaylor5193]

Listening to Ezra reminded me of a recent insight from Eric Weinstein---"Too many of our institutions are selecting for liars."Also, is there any doubt that Ezra was inclined toward safety from birth?

[@xit1254]

Around 1:19:00 Klein shows his ignorance of the self-correcting nature of science. Yes, of course, science is sometimes spectacularly wrong at the START of a new branch of science, but as that branch matures, the evidence begins to converge to reality. To quote Niels Bohr, "Any new theory or any new description of nature must agree with the old, where the old gives correct results."

[@michealhuff2299]

“Here’s what I think of you, now.....” Ezra or anyone else talks to me in such a smarmy manner will probably get punched in the mouth. Harris has way more patience than I

[@gbiota1]

I have to say that Klein's take on Jefferson as a "particularly bad" slave owner to be in dispute by the more credible histories I've looked at. I also found his insinuations about the troubles blacks faces in the 60's to be hyperbolic, how could the civil rights act have passed if the majority of the country was so racist? These were obvious traps that Sam was good not to fall into, but Klein needs to be exposed as a fraud. It's so much easier to lie than it is to show someone is lying.

[@gbiota1]

It's not actually as simple as everyone who voted against it is racist, as disagreements can arise with any law for multiple reasons. Many felt that the abolition of Jim Crow should be sufficient, and reasserting what was already written in the constitution was unnecessary. There are non bigots today who feel hate crime legislation creates a caste system, among other problems. You may also notice, you have already agreed with the wording of my original statement. "Majority", more than 2 to 1 in favor, and that 55 years ago. The truth is, most people under 40 have never met a self described racist in their lives, not one. Klein's explanation for problems becomes ever more hard to reconcile with people's personal experience as time moves forward. It also becomes ever more difficult to explain how the Japanese can recover decades faster from Nuclear bombs, than others can from low marriage rates and fire hoses. Or the germans, or those in eastern Europe, or those in India. The plight of the Jews is not used as an explanation for low IQ, but for the exact opposite. And on and on.

[@cordlefhrichter1520]

"...how could the civil rights act have passed if the majority of the country was so racist?" "The civil rights act was passed at around 70/30. That is more than a quarter of the country you dope." Someone can't math.

[@gbiota1]

More than 2:1 were not, and more can be subtracted from the remainder based on complications, that's a majority. Beyond that, my criticism was about Klein being hyperbolic. The "worst things in history, things you can scarcely imagine" is so far off for the 60's. Here is lynching data from 1882-1968, an easy candidate for 'the worst' of racism: www.famous-trials.com/sheriffshipp/1084-lynchingsyear You may notice that of the 5 people lynched in the 60's, 2 were white. In the 50's 6 black people were lynched. About 10x as many people die of falling icicles each year. What exactly is it people can scarcely imagine today in a world of Isis beheadings, people being put in cages and set on fire, and people kidnapping their own children and raping them for decades? 50 years ago, the worst of the worst matriculated into 3 murders in 10 years, and the last of those murders was in 1964.

[@pablolobo6560]

Congratulations to Sam Harris for standing up to the new enemies of science and scientists. Not many scientists are willing to fight for fear of being smeared or having to invest so much time for a cause. The only way to make the world better is through honest assessment of our reality even if the results may be uncomfortable or dangerous in the wrong hands.

[@goldeternal]

what's your iq, sent link

[@robrick9361]

This only proves how difficult it is to THINK scientifically. Ezra reminds of a patient in HouseMD who was asked if he had ever done drugs or had sex with another man and got offended. Cause he couldn't separate that the Dr just trying to get the info to do his job properly from to the social implications of what was being asked.

[@jmc5335]

Yet it was Harris who got offended when peddling pseudoscience

[@bridgenorton537]

You can tell this Ezra guy is a complete fool from his excessive male vocal fry

[@batladder1]

Ezra's fake laugh as he is speaking is bloody annoying

[@kingwillbisthebest]

Yep he is a trite wanker

[@jaykay6387]

Ezra trying to debate Sam is like a player in a low A rookie league trying to hit against Sandy Koufax, it shouldn't even be legally allowed to happen.

[@steve12cass]

It is only in the last few days that I have come across Ezra Klein. The first was his interview of Bret Weinstein. I've now listened to this interview as well. I could write an essay but that would be dull to read. So I'll just say what a schmuck Ezra Klein is. A perfect example of, 'a little knowledge is a dangerous thing' and also of how ideologues are so dangerous to society.

[@harrybarber3255]

We can't talk about this because of the colour of our skin, we need to not treat people differently based on the colour of their skin... I'm retarded

[@nehorlavazapalka]

There is no 18 point rise in adult IQ, what a liar.

[@TheMeanAdmin]

The flimsiness of his arguments aside - the manner Ezra speaks in sounds like he's mocking a high-school mean girl. Except that's how he's talking the entire time. Which is why I find it so hard to figure out whether I cannot take him seriously because he adamantly refuses to speak on the subject or because he sounds like a perfect parody of himself.

[@FromDallas]

Yes! It's like he is perpetually mid-snark, eyeing the insecure teenage girl or boy in front of him, determined to destroy with cruelty.

[@superhumansight]

Ezra: I'm gonna filibuster, imply malice, and you gotta take it because your self defense is too wordy.

[@delsere7095]

Ezra is very articulate but his fundamental opinion that the social context must be considered when conducting research and interpreting data is poor science by definition. If you have a bias of true equality in every controversial aspect (IQ among the innumerable others) then that will compromise the integrity of your research and interpretation - this is the definition of bad science and why peer review is so important. Ezra is clearly competent but he fails to understand that morality is unjustly overstepping into the scientific field.

[@KeyClavis]

The psychology displayed in this polite, civilized (but by no means friendly) argument is fascinating. Most of what appears to be compromise on Sam's part was actually him clarifying when Ezra conflates two or more separate issues. Neither side was willing to give an inch.

[@phantomplastics6582]

Well done Sam. We must stand for the facts whether or not they make someone uncomfortable. I've read a lot on this so I can see you are right here. People are so hung up with moral grandstanding to look good that they are often prepared to dismiss the facts. That path does not lead to progress.

[@jmc5335]

Are you well enough read up to think that Black, White, Asian and White are legitimate genetic groupings and that IQ measures general intelligence?