Sam Harris Religious Moderates problem with believing in a immoral god

Sam Harris One of the many problems with religious moderates.

[@mestrini]

It's so good to hear an American saying "Nuclear" instead of "Nucular" I thank thee in the name of science and education Sam Harris.

[@qaplatlhinganmaH]

Robert Ingersoll If abuses are destroyed, we must destroy them. If slaves are freed, we must free them. If new truths are discovered, we must discover them. If the naked are clothed; if the hungry are fed; if justice is done; if labor is rewarded; if superstition is driven from the mind; if the defenseless are protected and if the right finally triumphs, all must be the work of people. The grand victories of the future must be won by humanity, and by humanity alone.

[@sincere2da]

well we need more people to be rational thinkers, we also need to solve economic tyranny, like the Capitalist system

[@vibrohm]

World needs to think more.

[@TalismancerM]

@jameshanley40 Agreed. Moderates are not only are poor scholars/ theologians, they also set the conditions in which fundamentalist can flourish and then provide the respectability for their actions. If you can cherry-pick from these books then why not pick the bits that advocate intolerance and bigotry. Hey Presto..another fundy..

[@martingoldfire]

Exellent reasoning by Sam Harris, as usual.

[@LawlessNate]

ExCellent reasoning? He told an outright, bold-faced lie. He purposely misquoted the Bible.

[@dawnbroker5156]

LawlessNate, you are clearly not think straight. Sam Harris' reasoning is excellent on this issue.

[@LawlessNate]

If your attention span is longer than about 5 seconds then give these few paragraphs a read. Here, Sam Harris quotes Jesus who himself was quoting a fictional parable. The king in this fictional parable orders his disloyal subjects to be killed, but Sam Harris misquotes the parable to suggest that Jesus himself was suggesting that people who do not follow him should be killed. To quote Sam harris, "You can take Jesus in half of his moods and get some really beautiful ethical precepts like the golden rule, but Jesus also said things like in Luke 19 "Anyone who doesn't want me to rule over him bring him before me and slay him before me." - kzbin.info/www/bejne/bmO8ep-re9KXmNU (at 1:43) To quote the Bible Passage which he quotes out of context Luke 19 11 While they were listening to this, he went on to tell them a parable, because he was near Jerusalem and the people thought that the kingdom of God was going to appear at once. 12 He said: “A man of noble birth went to a distant country to have himself appointed king and then to return. 13 So he called ten of his servants and gave them ten minas.[a] ‘Put this money to work,’ he said, ‘until I come back.’ 14 “But his subjects hated him and sent a delegation after him to say, ‘We don’t want this man to be our king.’ 15 “He was made king, however, and returned home. Then he sent for the servants to whom he had given the money, in order to find out what they had gained with it. 16 “The first one came and said, ‘Sir, your mina has earned ten more.’ 17 “‘Well done, my good servant!’ his master replied. ‘Because you have been trustworthy in a very small matter, take charge of ten cities.’ 18 “The second came and said, ‘Sir, your mina has earned five more.’ 19 “His master answered, ‘You take charge of five cities.’ 20 “Then another servant came and said, ‘Sir, here is your mina; I have kept it laid away in a piece of cloth. 21 I was afraid of you, because you are a hard man. You take out what you did not put in and reap what you did not sow.’ 22 “His master replied, ‘I will judge you by your own words, you wicked servant! You knew, did you, that I am a hard man, taking out what I did not put in, and reaping what I did not sow? 23 Why then didn’t you put my money on deposit, so that when I came back, I could have collected it with interest?’ 24 “Then he said to those standing by, ‘Take his mina away from him and give it to the one who has ten minas.’ 25 “‘Sir,’ they said, ‘he already has ten!’ 26 “He replied, ‘I tell you that to everyone who has, more will be given, but as for the one who has nothing, even what they have will be taken away. 27 But those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them-bring them here and kill them in front of me.’” Obviously, Jesus was quoting a parable of a fictional king and not suggesting that people who do not follow him should be slaughtered. The fact that he suggested Luke 19 was Jesus himself commanding the death of those who don't follow him shows that Sam Harris is either incredibly ignorant or willingly lying.

[@VaeVictis6478]

@@LawlessNate ok so he misquoted jesus, it doesn't change anything really. Jesus not bothering to comment on slavery when he lived in a time and place where it was practiced wholesale tells me all I need to know.

[@LawlessNate]

@@VaeVictis6478 He didn't merely misquote Jesus, he told and outright, bold faced lie. He knowingly lied to you. He knew it wasn't true, and yet he told you anyways. How do you go on trusting someone like that?

[@prisspross32]

agreed, very good comment.

[@chachieb]

I never knew about Augustine and Aquinas, as well I never considered the new testament/inquisition thing.

[@abeaboud272]

Luke 19:27 is actually part of a parable (a story) which starts in Luke 19:11. It speaks of a king who leaves his servants shares of his property to invest, and when he comes back he punishes those who stood against him by killing them. This is no commandment for Christians to kill. In fact, Christians are asked many times to bless those who curse them (Matt 12:44, Luke 6:28), not to take revenge (Rome 12:19) and turn the other cheek (Matt 5:39)... etc. Even when defending Christ, peter is ordered to put away his sword (Matthew 26:52). Sadly, that bar is too high for many, and they always fall short of it.

[@MasterSpade]

That is just more Proof of the Hypocrisy of the bible. It says one thing in one place, and the opposite in another. You say "This is no commandment for Christians to kill." Uhmm.........yes there is. But let's be honest, if anyone showed you one of those parts of the bible, you would just find Excuse after Excuse for it. Because for religious people, the most important thing is not the Truth, but to defend their beliefs. Because of that, even when presented with proof against those beliefs, they will just find excuses and ways to continue that belief........no matter what. Sad but true. “You can't convince a believer of anything; for their belief is not based on evidence, it's based on a deep seated need to believe” - Dr. Arroway in Carl Sagan's Contact

[@MustAfaalik]

Correct. But I do not agree with the exclusion of non believers and non heterosexuals.

[@SweepingDeveloper]

@@MasterSpade (ADDENDUM: Upon studying I Corinthians 5:12, I have my doubts on whether a Christian can put someone to death via Romans 13.) I previously said: " Where in Scripture are Christians asked to kill? I agree that if a Christian was in a position of Government power, Romans 13:4 would apply against criminals whom the State deems worthy of death. But in any other situation, I don't see it."

[@MasterSpade]

@@SweepingDeveloper -- 1. Are you a believer? 2. Have you read the bibles? 3. If you are a believer, honest question as this is the most important one = Is there any amount of evidence that could shake your faith and make you question your beliefs? Because as I said to the OP, there are many verses where that Claimed "All Loving" god commands killings and many other Evil things. Problem is, most believers never read their books. Bottom line is, everyone has to ask themselves: what is more important to them, keeping their beliefs alive.... OR.... following the Facts and basing beliefs on what is Real and True? I chose to base my beliefs on what is real and true. How about you?

[@SweepingDeveloper]

@@MasterSpade I am a believer and have read the Bible. I don't understand it all, but as of right now, no earthly evidence can shake me from what I believe. As far as doctrine and theology are concerned, my source of what is real and true comes from the Word of God, the Bible. This is why I ask for a Scripture citation in questions of doctrine and theology.

[@Deeredman4]

Yeah, from what I gathered he was talking about a tyrant and telling people to stay away from men like that...

[@newipad]

Or as Sam puts it: "God is not a moderate."

[@qaplatlhinganmaH]

Molleen Matsumura: Reason guides our attempt to understand the world about us. Both reason and compassion guide our efforts to apply that knowledge ethically, to understand other people, and have ethical relationships with other people.

[@qaplatlhinganmaH]

The first religious sense of faith is a type of belief, specifically belief without clear evidence or knowledge. Christians using the term to describe their beliefs should be using it in the same way as Paul: "Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." [Hebrews 11:1] This is the sort of faith Christians often rely upon when confronted with evidence or arguments that would disprove their religious beliefs.

[@endofscene]

You have to read the parable and then consider its meaning.

[@jtfugate]

I just am thankful that in many places these lies are being seen for exactly what they are...the fastest growing group of people are free thinkers/rationalist/atheist or whatever title you choose so that is good news...so many children will be free of the disgusting teachings of such archaic times

[@qaplatlhinganmaH]

If a person believes something is true in this sense of "faith," their belief has become separated from facts and reality. Just as evidence plays no role in producing the belief, evidence, reason, and logic can't disprove the belief. A belief that is not dependent on reality also can't be refuted by reality. It's also arguably why it's so easy for faith to become a motivation for committing unspeakable crimes.

[@wintershadows]

Sam Harris does a great job here.

[@qaplatlhinganmaH]

This sort of faith is problematic because if a person really does believe something without evidence, even weak evidence, then they have formed a belief about the state of the world independent of information about the world. Beliefs are supposed to be mental representations about the way the world is but this means beliefs should be dependent upon what we learn about the world; beliefs shouldn't be independent of what we learn about the world.

[@blaziermissy]

Culture is lagging so far behind our knowledge. insane primacy.... Some people are so accustomed to suffering, they don't even know they are suffering. In this regard, there's some truth to the old cliche, "Ignorance is Bliss."

[@qaplatlhinganmaH]

"Christianity is the most perverted system that ever shone on man." Thomas Jefferson " The divinity of Jesus is made a convenient cover for absurdity." - John Adams "The Bible is not my book nor Christianity my profession. I could never give assent to the long, complicated statements of Christian dogma." Abraham Lincoln

[@endofscene]

The King in the parable represents Jesus, called King of the Jews.

[@endofscene]

So the whole 17 verse parable talking about investment is just a warning for people to stay away from tyrants? I don't think so.

[@Zookeeper1983]

@marcotai Atheism is not faith. It is not even a philosophical position.It is simply a lack of belief in the propositions of theism. Therefore atheism cannot motivate anyone to do anything. Stalin didn't kill millions because he was an atheist - he did it because he was a communist. The two things have no necessary relation. About spreding hated: Calling Harris' well-argued criticism of religion hatred, speaks volumes about the special treatment religious people feel entitled to.

[@waltermh111]

to be clearn, evolution is a fact, natural selection is a theory to explain the fact of evolution. Just like gravity is a theory and fact. Most sciences are both The fact is the assuredness of the idea as reality The theory is a description of how it works It is understandable how confusing it is to explain to people who dont want to believe in it before even glancing in the general direction of the evidence But for those who care, just making clear talkorigins . org/faqs/evolution-fact.html

[@Heffsta02]

wow great comment

[@Deeredman4]

Why wouldn't he just say that then? Where is the scripture that alludes that Jesus is talking about himself?

[@trythinkingnow]

Of course it does...he is telling them a story through use of a parable.

[@dopejoel]

@InsaneRemo It's nice to be able to have gentle and respectful discourse with fellow youtubers. But yeah, I am not for suppressing religion and do believe is reasonable tolerance.

[@Deeredman4]

Yeah I only read enough of it to figure out he was telling a parable, but he seemed to be painting the "king" in a bad light so I just assumed the parable was about staying away from those kinds of people...If I had of actually sat down and tried to understand it I might have got a different meaning but like I said he was painting the king in a bad light so I SERIOUSLY doubt he was the king in the story.

[@chandratube1]

I like Sam most of the time but do not understand why he never critisized stupidity in eastern religions

[@trythinkingnow]

It is very obvious that Jesus/God is the king in the parable. The moral of the story is god gives everyone certain abilities and talents and if you do nothing with what god has given you, do nothing to use it to improve your lot, then you waste god's gifts to you and you will suffer judgment. The kingdom is the kingdom of god.

[@Deeredman4]

Why would Jesus refer to himself in third person? That doesn't make any sense.

[@dopejoel]

If you define faith so broadly as to mean confidence, then yeah we have have that. But, the confidence one might have in a cure for cancer or that a chair will hold them is not the same as the confidence a christian scientist has in the power of prayer when neglecting his or her child of modern day medicine. Some people are confident because of evidence. Religious faith is confidence despite the lack of evidence or despite the evidence which might suggest something to the contrary.

[@qaplatlhinganmaH]

"The hocus-pocus phantasy of a God, like another Cerberus, with one body and three heads, had its birth and growth in the blood of thousands and thousands of martyrs." Thomas Jefferson, third President of the USA

[@derek24hudson]

I suspect 'respectful' means 'you cannot challenge or criticise my faith'! Many christians are less than respectful to gays, atheists etc, as are muslims. I find their beliefs and remarks very offensive and intolerant. BUT, I defend their right to express their views, as long as they do not deliberately incite violence or discrimination. I will just have to be grown up enough to be offended...that's the price of freedom. For the alternative, try Iran, China, Russia et al.

[@theunraveler]

Luke 19:27 was a parable...Jesus was telling a story about the master and the ten minas

[@SweepingDeveloper]

Even if it was a parable, God still has the power to kill (Deuteronomy 32:39, 2 Kings 5:7), and also send to Hell (Matthew 10:28).

[@chrispoppe3853]

Moderate, in a religious context, is a form of theological interpretation, not a state of faith.

[@chrispoppe3853]

All I know is my faith has brought me to Love. And it has taught me to give of myself, not that I am good at it. I think that the concepts of "Love thy neighbor as thyself,", turning the other cheek, pacifism and denying yourself are the most beautiful things I have ever heard. And it echoes Eastern spiritual teachings. I won't deny dogma is divisive, but I find us all circling the same God, in our own way.

[@Pofo7]

I agree but i'd like to add "you religious or not or you are experiencing cognitive dissonance" "I am not a fundie! or a non-theist! I am the good bits of the same religion the fundies follow so I am a good moderate Christian!" uh no.. you are just deluding yourself into thinking the fundies aren't following your religion by the book while you intellectually no it's wrong and still identify with parts or even all of it"

[@PrettiestDogEver]

Btw, scholars tortured? Copernicus was a priest, a man of God, as were most of the early scientists.

[@arthurclarke983]

+PrettiestDogEver Several ways to argue with you. 1) If Copernicus was a priest (he wasn't because he never took vows), then this alone shows you what religious people are willing to do with anyone who questions orthodoxy. 2) The only way to become literate in those days was to work for the church, regardless of what you truly believed. 3) We don't really know what anyone in those days believed because, as we know, it was very dangerous to openly admit to any doubt. Many smart people knew to go thru the motions and keep their mouths shut-- or be tortured to death in the name of a loving god.

[@jtfugate]

No he is stating that it is ridiculous for people to view someone who may teach your children that there are different worldviews as being equally detrimental as someone that could do something that would jeopardize the value of the only thing that is able to be proven to the extent that we can for the most part agree on as our only known existence as human beings...sound point if you ask me I'll take a christian telling my future children about some Jewish folk tales over a molester any day

[@Hatchyack]

72 4Channers.

[@SylviabombsmithUjhy75bd34]

epic

[@derek24hudson]

Comments about Sam Harris' race and motives are a red herring, and come across, despite the denials, as racist. This has echoes of the charges against Darwin himself, and alleged racism. In both cases, the charges are irrelevant. It is what these people SAY which is important. There is MUCH to criticise in Christianity, and other faiths, and believers have had an easy ride for years. Harris seems reasonable and rational, because he is. Nobody likes to have their faith challenged.

[@selfsenter]

so his whole lecture on why religion is extreme is bcz its against gay? lol..

[@dopejoel]

@nigtastic1 lol sorry, I was using my friends profile earlier and accident.

[@marcotai]

Is this guy giving the speech believing that his reasoning come from a well balanced chemical molecules in his brain? LOL

[@waltermh111]

maybe not the wrong video, but you posted to the wrong post. Again, we were not talking about Harris Also, evidence that Harris is arrogant and pompous? Is it because you dont like that he doesnt believe in a god? Does that hurt your feelings?

[@endofscene]

You don't. Others have different interpretations. That's the problem with ancient and mysterious writings - people can read into them whatever they want. Who even knows what Jesus really said and meant?

[@livvidd]

reddit ftw!!

[@endofscene]

If you try and understand the story and the context then you will realise that he is the king. You say that he is painting the king in a bad light but that is because you think a king who kills unloyal subjects is bad. Jesus says nothing about the king being bad. And you obviously don't know the meaning of the parable.

[@LawlessNate]

And there's proof that Harris is an outright liar. To quote Harris "You can take Jesus in half of his moods and get some really beautiful ethical precepts like the golden rule, but Jesus also said things like in Luke 19 "Anyone who doesn't want me to rule over him bring him before me and slay him before me." To quote the Bible "11 While they were listening to this, he went on to tell them a parable, because he was near Jerusalem and the people thought that the kingdom of God was going to appear at once. 12 He said: “A man of noble birth went to a distant country to have himself appointed king and then to return. 13 So he called ten of his servants and gave them ten minas.[a] ‘Put this money to work,’ he said, ‘until I come back.’ 14 “But his subjects hated him and sent a delegation after him to say, ‘We don’t want this man to be our king.’ 15 “He was made king, however, and returned home. Then he sent for the servants to whom he had given the money, in order to find out what they had gained with it. 16 “The first one came and said, ‘Sir, your mina has earned ten more.’ 17 “‘Well done, my good servant!’ his master replied. ‘Because you have been trustworthy in a very small matter, take charge of ten cities.’ 18 “The second came and said, ‘Sir, your mina has earned five more.’ 19 “His master answered, ‘You take charge of five cities.’ 20 “Then another servant came and said, ‘Sir, here is your mina; I have kept it laid away in a piece of cloth. 21 I was afraid of you, because you are a hard man. You take out what you did not put in and reap what you did not sow.’ 22 “His master replied, ‘I will judge you by your own words, you wicked servant! You knew, did you, that I am a hard man, taking out what I did not put in, and reaping what I did not sow? 23 Why then didn’t you put my money on deposit, so that when I came back, I could have collected it with interest?’ 24 “Then he said to those standing by, ‘Take his mina away from him and give it to the one who has ten minas.’ 25 “‘Sir,’ they said, ‘he already has ten!’ 26 “He replied, ‘I tell you that to everyone who has, more will be given, but as for the one who has nothing, even what they have will be taken away. 27 But those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them-bring them here and kill them in front of me.’” Purposely misquoting something is lying.

[@waltermh111]

you posted in the wrong place. I wasnt discussing or replying to somebody that mentioned Sam Harris at all.. Not that I even get what a jewish heritage has to do with anything. You likemaking stuff up to make yourself feel better? Thinking you have all the answers to the world, understand people perfectly? Feel good bashing people that arent harming you? Reply to the proper place and stop being a narcisistic egotist.

[@arthurclarke983]

I HAVE NO REGARD FOR VIRGIN OR PIGEON; MY METHOD IS SCIENCE, MY TARGET: RELIGION.The truth is, if you are a moral person, you are moral IN SPITE of religion, not BECAUSE of it. Chances are, no matter how much I might hate your stupid, reactionary religious views, I will admit you are too good a person to own a slave, or even want to. But why don't you want to own a slave? At best, your holy book takes slavery for granted, (NT: "in heaven there is neither male nor female; slave nor free...) or, at worst, encourages it in the many OT passages. So you have a higher morality than your god. How can that be? BECAUSE god IS A HUMAN INVENTION, AND AS HUMANS DEVELOP BETTER SOCIETIES, THEIR gods GET BETTER AS WELL.

[@PrettiestDogEver]

He misquotes Luke. Not an honest man. If God abominates homosexuality, so be it. Who is this this narcissist to say God is wrong.

[@Westermann15]

+PrettiestDogEver He's not actually passing judgment on that verse. He is merely pointing out how ridiculous religious moderation is.

[@JediNiyte]

+PrettiestDogEver God couldn't possibly be wrong, because He/She/It doesn't exist.

[@arthurclarke983]

+PrettiestDogEver Given the many different translations of the bible, how can you automatically jump to the conclusion that he's deliberately lying? You should know enough bible to know that "only god knows a man's heart', and to 'judge not, lest ye be judged'. You seem to be another smug hater of your fellow man, thinking god will exempt you from the rules. Well, if he will exempt you, why wouldn't he exempt a gay person (also created in his image)? F***ing religious hypocrites....

[@hades773]

Art Clark if god exist maybe he should use his "almighty power" to cut the bullshit instead of us having 3,000 plus religions that people are killing each other for.

[@Metsada007]

Cut the crap will you, the Abrahamic God is obviously immoral, anyone who reads the Torah, Bible and Qur'an can see this undeniable fact. God is an asshole.

[@PrettiestDogEver]

This is bullshit. God is bound by a moral code. God is morality.

[@qaplatlhinganmaH]

The first religious sense of faith is a type of belief, specifically belief without clear evidence or knowledge. Christians using the term to describe their beliefs should be using it in the same way as Paul: "Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." [Hebrews 11:1] This is the sort of faith Christians often rely upon when confronted with evidence or arguments that would disprove their religious beliefs.

[@qaplatlhinganmaH]

If a person believes something is true in this sense of "faith," their belief has become separated from facts and reality. Just as evidence plays no role in producing the belief, evidence, reason, and logic can't disprove the belief. A belief that is not dependent on reality also can't be refuted by reality. It's also arguably why it's so easy for faith to become a motivation for committing unspeakable crimes.

[@qaplatlhinganmaH]

This sort of faith is problematic because if a person really does believe something without evidence, even weak evidence, then they have formed a belief about the state of the world independent of information about the world. Beliefs are supposed to be mental representations about the way the world is but this means beliefs should be dependent upon what we learn about the world; beliefs shouldn't be independent of what we learn about the world.