SARUMAN vs THE WITCH-KING OF ANGMAR | Who Would Win? | Middle-Earth Lore

[@TheBrokenSword]

Hope everyone (who celebrates it) had an awesome Christmas! And bring on 2023 🎉🎉

[@dambrooks7578]

Happy first day of visible movement of the Sun on the horizon after the Winter Solstice everyone 🎄 it is the day that the Green Man begins his march towards bringing his wold back into life as the days begin to get shorter...🌳🤩

[@hurricaneJason07]

Smaug vs Durin's bane!

[@animesaveslives418]

Thanks you too, great video I've wondered who would win for awhile and this provided good insight to that question

[@michaelsmyth3935]

Whether it be Christmas, Saturnalia, Yule, some other Solstice based stuff, whatever, the Pastaroni in the Sky, whatever, hope you had a good one.

[@dambrooks7578]

@@michaelsmyth3935 yourself as well ☀

[@donavonhoward114]

The film does not show Saruman as a loyal servant at all. In the film, just like in the books, Saruman wants the hobbits captured and taken back to Isengard because he wants the one ring for himself. Saruman wants to be the dark lord. He only sided with Sauron because at best, he wanted to eventually overthrow Sauron with possession of the one ring, or at worst, he would retain a level of power in Middle Earth after Sauron's victory over the free peoples. The thing is that Saruman doesn't realize that he actually is Sauron's disposable puppet, and Sauron doesn't trust him. Saruman thinks he is playing Sauron for a fool, but in truth Saruman is the one being deceived. That's true from both the books and the films, it's just portrayed a little less obviously because it's not stated with text.

[@DarthVenamis]

Bravo Bravo 👏

[@movoo6077]

I so agree. there are many places with in films where Saruman duplicity is depicted, you named the obvious one. Another was Gandalf telling Saruman "There is only one Lord of the Rings, only one who can bend it to his will, and he does not share power". This shows that the prior and hidden part of the conversation, Saruman revealed his plan to claim it.

[@andrewvincent7299]

I think you're giving PJ too much credit for keeping the nuance of Saruman and Sauron's alliance intact for the films. In the books, Saruman is clearly working in his own best interests and allied with Sauron to get clues on where the one ring was. Sauron never trusted Saruman and found out early on that Saruman already lied to him about the shire which is why Sauron sent the Witch King of Angmar to Isengard. Both of them knew the alliance was temporary, meant to keep tabs on each other, and a race to find the ring before the other. In the film that was never shown. What was shown was that Saruman completely threw his lot in with Sauron and was loyally working for him. He intended to take the ring from the hobbits to give to Sauron. It's also pretty obvious that Saruman was loyal to Sauron by the words of his monologue during the montage in the Two Towers film where he says "Together my lord Sauron, we shall rule this Middle Earth". Peter Jackson completely stripped the villains of the story of any layers and essentially made them mustache twirling villains with simple motivations. Denethor was another who fell victim to this.

[@voltfields3900]

Saruman is a great force too. He participated in the song of creation.

[@Kanig94]

Really? I thought only the Valar did, not the Maiar

[@mattiasgyllstrom8360]

@@Kanig94 Yes they did, volt is correct

[@lolpe1000]

All of Ainur did@@Kanig94

[@cherub3624]

They were given old bodies in appearance, but Gandalf survived the fall into Moria and fought the Balrog for something like 10 days. It's unclear to what extent the bodies of the Istari can take damage.

[@jaredjordan9863]

I'm not sure that they take damage in the way we understand it. I think that they only have so much power and using it burns out their fea (soul). Basically, they battle it out until one or the other burns out like a candle flame. Being evenly matched the Balrog and Gandalf burned each other out, but Gandalf had Iluvatar on his side while the Balrog had jack sh1t to rejuvenate him.

[@danielsilva-ds2u]

@Jared Jordan I like the idea but not entirely, elves beaten Balrogs before...or should I say the lord of the Balrogs stale mated with a great elf. But it is possible for lesser magical folk to beat the stronger ones. The istari do have diminished power but we don't know to what extent. We do know that gandalg served manwe who is arguably the best valar. People consider gandalf to be on tier with sauron...or should I say olorin is on tier with maron ( their Mair names respectively sorry for mis spells). Idk about that entirely, but saruman was jealous of gandalf and the elves took to gandalf more. My guess is that even gandalf with a human like body is still as strong as durine bane because gandalf was already a much higher order of Mair than whatever order Mair that Balrog was before hand. Then this is where I agree with your point. They burned eachother out and gandalf had a plus 1 life from eru. The Balrog did not.

[@jaredjordan9863]

@@danielsilva-ds2u Tolkein actually answered the question of whether Gandalf or Sauron was stronger. He said Gandalf with the ring could beat Sauron without it, "but it would be a close thing". One of the reasons Manwe picked Gandalf is because Gandalf had the good sense to fear Sauron. Ecthelion, the elf that killed the Balrog King Gothmog, was a king himself. Let's not forgot that an eleven king in The First Age also went toe to toe with Morgoth and permanently crippled him. Glorfindel, another First Age elf, and a Balrog killed each other in the same battle where Ecthelion and Gothmog killed each other. Glorfindel was resurrected by the Valar and sent to Middle-Earth as one of their emissaries. The Nazgul went out of their way to avoid him since Glorfindel could take all nine at once. Given all that info, Glorfindel and some of the other First Age elves were at least as powerful as Gandalf. Earendil (elf Jesus as I call him), is on par with some of the Valar. Third Age elves on the other hand... Well they just don't make elves like they used to.

[@danielsilva-ds2u]

@Jared Jordan so you don't think elves were weaker spirits initially but became stronger over time? I'm pretty sure valar and Mair would trump elves initially, but some elves worked crafts to near equivalent to even valar. Similar to my witchking defense. Yes he was man and numenorean but he practiced more and probably learned to deal damage to the more angelic beings than even elves...or maybe even weaker Maia could. Other than that I can't disagree. I do believe gandalf with the ring would beat sauron without it. I think sauron would beat gandalf if neither had the ring. And yes the power elves produced diminished after the first age. So yeah they don't make them like they used to. But still weaker life forms trumped the greater ones and that's something tolkein stuck with all the way including Hobbits destroying the ring.

[@jaredjordan9863]

@@danielsilva-ds2u Elves did tend to deck themselves out with magical weapons, armor, and trinkets. That no doubt helped. For the most part, elves became weaker over time. Without some sort of magical or divine intervention, they'd fade into wraiths. I can only think of 3 elves from The First Age or earlier by The War of the Ring. Elrond and Galadriel were preserved by their rings of power and GIorfindel by the Valar. Earendil's duty is to guard the Sun and protect it from Morgoth when he returns. How much of his ability to fight a Vala like Morgoth has to do with his personal power and how much has to do with The Silmaril he carries is hard to say. l'm not sure exactly how the concept of fea applies to non-divine beings. Getting back to The Witch-King, if Gandalf or Glorfindel could take all 9 at once I'm pretty sure any Maia could take him.

[@fightingfalcon777]

In response to your QOTD, given his ability to wound the first Dark Lord, I would love to see a “Who Would Win” match-up between Fingolfin and Sauron

[@platinum_ruler3264]

Probably still Sauron since at that point Melkor was severely weakened, would definitely be a closer fight though

[@billwithers7457]

@@platinum_ruler3264 Sauron lost to both Huan and Luthien, Sauron's power in the first age was not as great as at the end of the second age. And Fingolfin was an absolute beast. I would give Sauron a slight edge, but it's really, really close IMO.

[@fightingfalcon777]

@@billwithers7457 I’m just glad to see I didn’t pick a match up that people thought was completely one-sided lol 😅😆

[@alejandroalonso8642]

@@fightingfalcon777 If the situation was the same (Fingolfin being so furious and bloodlusted) and just swap Sauron with Melkor I would say that they would both fall. Sauron would fall just because Fingolfin at that time was above anything Sauron ever faced (trying very hard not to look at Huan), and Fingolfin would also die from his wounds or something similar, vanquishing a great foe always comes with a great price in Tolkien's stories.

[@jakobrenner2230]

It would be a lot closer but I actually think Sauron would walk out of that fight in far better shape than Morgoth did (ironically given the gap in power between the two). My reasoning for this is that at that time Sauron was far more disassociated with a single form than his master so Fingolfin would never have given Sauron the un-healable wounds he gave Morgoth (because he was fully Incarnated into the form of a tyrant). The fight would have lasted a lot longer and it would be a contest of monstrous skill (Fingolfin) vs. raw power and sorcery (Sauron).

[@john-anderspettersson5919]

Thank you for good and inspiring telling. A thought on the varying force on the witch king; he seems enforced by Sauron just about the attack of Gondor (both in book and film), further on at the smashed gates with the encounter with Gandalf who also is enforced as the white. So my point is that is dependent in which stage of a character we are to reflect upon. This calls also for Saruman, who certainly is pretty weakened as a magic character after the fall of Ortanc.

[@Higher_Mind_HM]

My favourite scene in The Battle of the Five Arnies is where the White Council attacks Dol Guldur. I could never imagine what Saruman would look like in battle. Of course we know what Gandalf the Grey/White looks like in combat and how he fights, but I could just never wrap my head around seeing Saruman in action. And at Dol Guldur we do. Awesome fighting style.

[@Higher_Mind_HM]

"Are you in need of assistance, my lady?"

[@TheHunnyBeee]

Gandalf held back alot due to his limited power plus his direction by Manwe instructing him to not abuse what little powers he had. Saruman did not play by those rules and truth be told, I think Aule is a dubious character as his Maiar both fell into darkness. It would make sense him for him not to instruct Saruman to limit his power but allow him to abuse it.

[@thenovicegamer007]

@@TheHunnyBeee That is not how it works.... The Istari were put in such bodies that they could NOT use their full Maiar powers even if they had WANTED to. Heck the Istari upon reaching Middle Earth actually forgot a lot of the lore that they knew as Maiar so they don't even remember all the spells and stuff that they used to know.

[@Magere-Kwark]

I know it's just a typo but when I read "The Battle Of The Five Arnies" the first thing that popped into my mind was 5 Arnold Schwarzeneggers battling it out against each other.

[@abdullahalkandari2976]

Well you're a fan of shit childish cgi..

[@lynnerose7891]

Saruman literally lied to the Nazgul but they didn’t know, because Saruman convinced them, so I can’t imagine he’d be too difficult for him to persuade to the Witch King again.

[@jackcrawford6078]

When you said "completely divested of his body" (the WItch King) it prompted a thought: In the movie, before the attack of Gondor, it shows TWK putting on his helmet. If he has no physical body, why would he ever take it Off? Ceilings in Mordor too low? Phantom neck pains?

[@michaelsmyth3935]

Phantom neck pains.... 🥇

[@philkugler2429]

This is hilarious. But the helmet is more for the fear it instills. When we first encounter him he's on more of a secret mission and not trying to draw attention to himself.

[@Ken-zc5ow]

He only got the helmet because he stabbed Frodo and somehow Frodo survives. Think of the nemesis system in shadow of Mordor. He went from Witch King of Angmar to Witch King of Hobbit Slayer real quick

[@paulbarbat1926]

In the books, he never has one, and when he takes his hood off : " The Black Rider flung back his hood, and behold! he had a kingly crown; and yet upon no head visible was it set. The red fires shone between it and the mantled shoulders vast and dark. From a mouth unseen there came a deadly laughter." In the movie, I think it is because he is relying on stealth most of the time (at least when scouting for intel about the Ring), not brute power, not until the War

[@Ken-zc5ow]

@@paulbarbat1926 I'm pretty sure in the movies its stated that the witch king of Angmar became saurons lieutenant after stabbing Frodo. Effectively killing him (needs resuscitation from the elves) otherwise Frodo would be dead from the blade of morgoths poison.

[@Huskytabby]

What-if video idea for you to do: What if Gandalf never fell at the Bridge of Khazad-dum and continued with the fellowship to Lothlorien and on forward?

[@clongshanks5206]

I second this

[@OfOld]

rohan would have fallen i think, and probably gondor too

[@WasabiSniffer]

I’m drawn to think of the likes of Gandalf or Glorfindel against a Balrog. The extent as to how much something born of the world against a maiar, or a maiar in mortal visage against a maiar unrestrained. Still, in his home turf and quite powerful on his own, I think the Witch King could hold for a while but he wouldn’t last.

[@Ancantar]

Nazguls were pretty weak during the Third Age. Their powers are relative to the power of Sauron and he was diminished without his Ring.

[@MurrayHerts]

They are very weak if one man can chase a few of them off with a log on fire, they're weaker than just an average human soldier.

[@LordBalin]

The Witch completely destroyed Arnor in the third age.

[@ahriskof1]

Why would saruman went to the shire after escaping isengard will always baffle me. Why go west to the heart of the kingdom of Anur to the shire where you have no power or leverage or followers while you can go to the east after hearing about the fall of sauron and live there as a literal god

[@zaredsabretooth7980]

@@ahriskof1 I would say probably a last ditch shot at revenge since he lost most his power, all his armies, pretty much everything he had was gone because 2 hobbits convinced the ents to go to war. He was probably expecting he could be a tyrant to the people that helped ruin him AND gandalfs favorite race

[@KorithStoneheart]

Their power is not comparable. Sauron is a Maia, the Nazgul are merely the wraiths of men

[@norrinradd9155]

Fingolfin vs Glorfindel. Great post!

[@DamonNomad82]

As a long-time fan of the books (the first Jackson film didn't come out until I was a freshman in college), I agree with your assessment of who would most likely win that fight, allowing that it could go either way depending on circumstances. As far as the question of other matchups, it's tricky to think of a potentially even one that doesn't include Saruman or the Witch King as one of the contenders, but I did manage to come up with a few. How about Galadriel vs Durin's Bane? Elrond vs the Mouth of Sauron? Smaug vs Glorfindel?

[@lordcorax6918]

Elrond vs Mouth is a total no-match for Elrond. In the books, Aragorn just has to watch him a bit angrily to make Mouth of Sauron cower in fear.

[@danielsilva-ds2u]

Yeah I think elrond would easily beat the mouth of sauron. The book does state that sauron taught him some sorcery, but I think elrond has learned more because of his much longer life as well as he carries on of the elven rings. Even though they agreed not to use them so sauron can not watch them, elrond basically has that ace in the hole to amplify his power. If the mouth was directly connected to the ring, if sauron gave him a ring ( which we don't know if he did), maybe sauron could amplify the mouths power like he did with the witchking to be able to face gandalf. But I never found anything about what sauron did with the dwarf rings. Only that he reclaimed them over time. Maybe if somebody scooped up the witchkings ring, the mouth could be offered that as a gift from sauron.

[@grandadmiralzaarin4962]

I mean on home field advantage in Orthanc there's no question that Saruman would win. He was able to bend their will with his voice alone when all Nine went to Isengard looking for Gandalf. Further, Gandalf the Grey was able to fight off all Nine at Weathertop, so Saruman would certainly be able to take him down or contain him and Gandalf the Grey couldn't even stop his own imprisonment in Orthanc.

[@jaredjordan9863]

The Istari are all Maia while the Nazgul are empowered by a Maia, so I'd put money on an Istari over the Witch-King. You're absolutely right about Gandalf holding off all nine single-handedly. The Nazgul are more powerful than mortals, but they're not at demi-god level like the Maia.

[@kilroy1976]

I'm not sure that Saruman's voice would be a factor at all in a true fight. The command to destroy Saruman would almost certainly come from Sauron's will, not the Witch King's, and I don't think there's any power in Middle Earth that would make the Witch King do anything opposed to Sauron's will. Yes, Saruman deceived the Nazgul, but that didn't require them to forego their quest for the ring, which was Sauron's will, it merely sent them astray on their quest. Had their quest been to destroy Saruman rather than to find the ring, I don't think anything could have hindered them from trying to carry out that task until either Saruman or they were destroyed. For the other reasons that you and Jared mentioned though, yeah, on paper Saruman wins, hands down. Of course, I'm also not convinced that the Witch King would have inevitably lost to Gandalf in Minas Tirith if it truly was "his hour." Tolkien is full of "his hours."

[@heretowatchvideos100]

Saruman in the books didn't really seem to be a traditional fighter.

[@jaredjordan9863]

@@heretowatchvideos100 Quite right. He seemed more of a tactician type. I suspect that had more to do with cowardice than ability. In Tolkein's experience in WW1, the real monsters tended to hide behind the troops. Even though he was an officer himself, Tolkein much preferred the enlisted troops over the officer class. I'm sure Saruman could have held his own against The Witch-King, but I imagine he'd be loath to weaken his own fea and be left exposed. Selfishness is another characteristic of evil. Saruman preferred to let others pay the costs of his ambitions.

[@heretowatchvideos100]

@@jaredjordan9863 I made a post on the vid itself if you're interested in reading it!

[@darkLiquid22]

Beorn vs Shelob

[@jamesgalbreath343]

Thanks for this quite thoughtful review of these two important corrupted characters in Tolkien's world.

[@TimothySullivan-x8z]

Good shot,, both from you and the comments you set some good points, moji for scenario,, saw the one pointed to using role in dol gardur for , moji-inspiration? for your work, i especially liked comparison to Gandalf's moment inArda, to seeing the years apart Saruman stiil carried,, hinted at, well(?) There was a point I thought I'd add, yet really, is there a part two?? Ehh, well, I considered there maybe a point in Saruman's 'all or nothing', notice? If he coulsn't get the ring? sort of direction. Thanks for the emoji - moment dwelling? Again, good one .

[@ryanmarr5243]

I like to imagine what sauron would be like if he wasn't nerfed after his fight with huon, would he have battled people more directly in his werewolf and vampire forms. For example trying to tame smaug or during bane with force or battling the white council.

[@jessicaroberts5956]

I have a question thats haunted me for 20 yrs, why did Saruman seem as if he was in pain after his first contact with Salron ? The scene "What does the eye command my Lord, We have work to do". LOTR Fellowship of the rings.

[@abubakarkaila2616]

It takes a lot of energy to withstand Sauron through the Palantir. Thats just my thought

[@jessicaroberts5956]

Makes sense, didn't know if maybe it was a behind the scenes scolding from the "gods that be there " do to a fall from grace thing he looked emotionaly damaged somehow. Thanks for the quick response man.

[@danielsilva-ds2u]

@Jessica Roberts I like your thought better. I think sarumans official decent from grace is why he is curled up. It kinda reminded me of Iago from Othello as things are getting more out if hand he is sick with himself, but for his desires, he refuses to quit he still has "work to do".

[@gechu941]

I always interpreted it as Saruman contemplating his actions. He knows full well what he’s done, and he just crossed the line. Talking to Sauron and pledging his allegiance meant there was no going back.

[@ΠάνοςΒασιλειάδης-ω7φ]

​@@jessicaroberts5956 Maybe because it is then that Saruman officialy joined the dark side and then Eru Iluvatar abandoned him! And that is not only emotional abandoning but power abandoning since Saruman's powers as a maia came from Eru. And it is then that he ceased as Saruman the white and went to Saruman of many colours (weaker version) And imagine the pain when the one who created you abandon you.

[@scerkann3966]

Saruman definitely wins before he used all his esssence for evil

[@colonelbbq]

one thing that bothers me is that you allude that sauron or saruman hindered the fellowship when they tried to cross the karadras, but when i read it i always thought that gandalf makes it pretty clear that it is the mountain itself that does not wants them to be on it, he talks about it like the mountain was a living thing or even a spirit.

[@sigmasquadleader]

Saruman essentially used his voice which was his great power to speak to the Mountain.

[@Dr_Footbrake]

@@sigmasquadleader in the Peter Jackson version(s). In the books this does *not* happen. This is portrayed in the chapter “The Ring Goes South”.

[@pedrovargas2181]

Caradhras

[@_semih_]

@@sigmasquadleader it was Sauron with his willpower who cast that snow storm upon Charadras. Only Sauron had ability of manipulating the weather in the third age

[@Masterahsoka]

O:

[@rolly1648]

This was awesome! Saruman of Many Colours would definitely defeat that wraith.

[@jaredjordan9863]

I'd put money on any Maia defeating the Witch-King any day. Even Radagast.

[@joechang8696]

Note Saruman's power of voice and persuasion works best in one-to-one, and less effective when speaking to many. So, I will say Saruman is capable of bamboozling even the witch king alone. Against the nine assembled is a different, in which it is a matter of how independent minded they are. All the Nazgul were once great men of power and wisdom, but would they speak up when WK is leading? Gandalf withstood five of the Nazgul. When Elrond learned the Nazgul were hunting for Frodo, per discussion between Gandalf and Frodo afterwards, works along the lines of: few even in Rivendell can ride openly against the nine. such as there were, were sent. Glorfindel was west, the most likely to meet the nine, hence dangerous direction.

[@Endme264]

Next up saruman uses potara with glaurung making glauruman, master of hypnosis

[@thejmelus]

What if the Nazgul fought The Dead Men of Dunharrow?

[@paulbarbat1926]

As their main weapon is the fear they instill, easy clap for the WK. They are a heart-attack machine, nothing more in the books. In the films, they have swords but no witchcraft, so they get destroyed too

[@avrace2708]

Error 404

[@ehc7775]

It saddens me that all of this ended when Tolkien passed away which followed by the birth of fourth age of middle earth. Magic faded away, eleves left, dwarves died out and then the age of man started.

[@matarigrace2521]

You forget a few things. One the witch king doesn't need "eyes" to see so he wouldn't become dazzled by the robe or the storm. Also he has the power to break down buildings. He also doesn't lose his power when de-robed it only makes himself invisible.

[@hodgrix]

I would love to see Feanor vs Sauron or Sauron at his height vs Morgoth at his low. Also DYING at how Sauron and the Nazgûl are so put off by the rainbow robe that they mess up 😂😂😂

[@luketrimnell9496]

Great video. I have an intersting match up what about the balrog vs beorn?

[@Tim.Stotelmeyer]

Video idea: What happened to the Watcher in the Water after the end of the third age.

[@sford605]

Gandalf fought 5? Nazgul to a standstill in the fellowship- as a grey wizard. The Witch King was more powerful than the rest, but he was still no white wizard. In fact, I recall Tolkien mentioning that a mortal man almost killed the witch king (a steward of Gondor if memory serves), but the witch king got away. Later, the witch king tricked and ambushed the man and killed him. But the white wizard was far too crafty and powerful for the witch king to do the same to him.

[@pauldombeck1634]

appendix says when the Nazgul stopped by Orthanc to ask Saruman some questions, he used his voice-power to send them on their way, but he was nonetheless freaked out by getting that taste of service to Mordor, so he went up to try to make nice with prisoner-Gandalf, only to find that G had escaped, at which point Saruman was even more freaked out.

[@KlaelDemon]

Fun speculation, cheers 🥂

[@rafaelgustavo7786]

A great match, but the Witch-king would only have a chance if it was his "reinforced" version by Sauron. Witch king Powers: - Create and break ice (according to the men of Forodwaith); - Control of the wind (which destroyed Arvedui's boat); - The black breath capable of leaving in torpor and even killing its victims; - Created the Barrow Wight; - Broke Frodo's sword and left him unconscious on the flight to Rivendell; - The flame sword in the "fight" against Gandalf; - And the explosion of Grond, activating the destruction spells. Saruman had his voice as his main weapon, capable of even convincing the Witch-king when the Nazgûl arrived in Isengard (Unfinished Tales version). Another not so talked about power is that the Istari could use telekinesis. Gandalf the White used it on two occasions: dropping Gimli's hammer in Fangorn Wood, and dropping the sword of Denethor when he tried to kill Faramir; Another power is a kind of "astral projection" in which an image of Saruman walked Rohan. This image that frightened the horses used by Aragorn, Legolar and Gimli in the Two Towers.

[@JohnSmith-bt3xh]

Sons of Fëanor vs the nine Gandalf the grey vs Smaug I have my opinion of how these would play out but loved to see a video about either...

[@DarthFrayd]

Osse vs Sauron the next versus. Really anything Osse but what and how do you see that ending?

[@cityman2312]

I see this is about Saruman of Many Colours. The important point is whether they fight at Orthanc or not. The Nazgul would all be at a disadvantage trying to take Orthanc.

[@brendanholbrook6370]

Old body they aren't supposed to test. Gandalf see Balrog: "hold my mead"

[@KaosRunes]

I feel like at the height of their power a demi god could not be overthrown by a mere mortal man turned into a dark spirit no matter how corrupted he became. Sauruman was killed by Grima because his power was diminished by Iluvatar and he was barely more than a mortal man. Sauruman overpowered Gandalf in the tower because Gandalf was still Grey at the time and Sauruman was still the head of the order.

[@George-xb5ey]

Minus his staff, his only armour was a robe at that point.

[@MrBillclintin]

Gandalf the grey is as powerful as Balrog. I would anytime consider a balrog levels more powerful then the nazguls and saruman more powerful then gandalf the grey. I don't see the withking standing chance.

[@Dr_Footbrake]

Balrog’s are (essentially) on Sauron’s level as Maiar corrupted by Morgoth. The nine are just regular men granted some power by their rings and Sauron so yeah, not on the level of the Istari of which Gandalf and Saruman are.

[@felixcote1697]

Didn't Witch King completely destroy Gandalf without even needing to fight?

[@MrBillclintin]

@@felixcote1697 only in the movie.

[@felixcote1697]

@@MrBillclintin Ohh, did they ever fight or confront each other in the books?

[@Alcysx]

@@felixcote1697 read the books lol no that didn’t happen 🙈🙈🙈

[@TheHunnyBeee]

Witch King was no match for the depowered Saruman which is why Jackson's deleted scene of the Witch King breaking Gandalf's Staff was a so stupid. Especially for book readers. While Gandalf the White was nowhere near his Olorin level of power, he's still much more powerful than the Witch King and Sauron himself. The Witch King's power is borrowed from Sauron who's already depowered without his ring.

[@danielsilva-ds2u]

It took the white council to remove sauron from dol guldor. Arguably not one individual could have done it...maybe 2 or 3 could and bringing 5 was for reassurance. So I think sauron could 1 v 1 any "body" on middle earth even without the ring at the 3rd age time.

[@TheHunnyBeee]

@@danielsilva-ds2u It was by Saruman that Sauron fled from DolGuldur. Its in the books.

[@danielsilva-ds2u]

@Hunny Bee from the silmarillion....of rings of power and the third age. "Therfore for the last time, he (saruman) aided the council, and THEY put forth their strength; and THEY assailed dol guldor, and drove sauron from his hold, and mirkwood for a brief while was made holesome again". I do believe saruman was the best of the white council but it doesn't say sauron was bested by saruman, it says the white council did it. And the white council was gandalf, saruman, galadriel, and Elrond.

[@TheHunnyBeee]

@@danielsilva-ds2u “Saruman has long studied the arts of the Enemy himself, and thus we have often been able to forestall him. It was by the devices of Saruman that we drove him from Dol Guldur.” - Gandalf (Lord of the Rings: Fellowship of the Ring)

[@danielsilva-ds2u]

@Hunny Bee saruman has long studied the arts of the Enemy himself and thus HE has often been able to forestall him. It was the devices of Saruman that HE drove him from dol guldor. That's what it needs to say for me to not believe it was a team effort. I am not saying saruman is not the reason the white council did it but he didn't do it alone. He( saruman) was the MVP of the the team and the team couldn't do it without him. But saruman could not have done it alone. If say sauron diminished was powered at lvl 60. Saruman would have been 40...while the combined efforts without him...the whitecouncil is 40. When saruman joins white council in the campaign, they become 80 and its largely because of saruman that they overpower sauron. I guess we will never know for sure though. Gandalf went to dol guldor and sauron fake fleeing. Then gandalf brings Elrond but I don't think sauron fled again. I think this suggests that sauron is not worried about confrontation, but I also don't think gandalf was looking for one. He just wanted elrond to believe him. What would sauron do is saruman walked in alone? I think sauron would fight back. And sauron only left for good because saruman came with a squad of pretty powerful allies. That's all we do know for sure is that the group was there and even if saruman was the one doing the expelling ( a problem I hate with the movie bc galadriel was over powered). It was the white council that drove sauron out, not saruman. But credit for MVP goes to saruman. That's what gandalf is saying.

[@AnotherZenThought]

In the movies it might be pretty close as the Witch King broke Gandalf’s staff after he ascended to GtW. In the books however, they wouldn’t even dare come into Bree and their entire company were stopped single-handedly by Aragorn at Weathertop, even if they did land a blow on Frodo before they were driven off.

[@lordcorax6918]

They made that choice in the movie because they didn't had enough screen time to show how mighty the witch king is supposed to be. In the books, the first level of Minas Tirith doesn't fall until the Witch King shows up with Ghrond to force Imrahil and his knights to move back.

[@1fan996]

How about a video on Aragorn vs Isildur or Elendil?

[@Dr_Footbrake]

In single combat Elendil and Isildur probably trounce Elessar. Old Numorean blood produced near inhumans and it’s been greatly diluted by the time Aragorn was born. (For example Isildur and Elendil are 20cm and 40cm taller than Aragorn respectively)

[@platinum_ruler3264]

Elendil > Isildur >> Aragorn

[@dancooke8811]

While Saruman is fighting The other Nazgul he just has to stab Saruman with his Morgul Blade and Saruman becomes a Nazgul.

[@venkelos6996]

I'm inclined to agree with this. These are both beings whom it can be hard to gauge their power; it only took a knife to kill Saruman, but the Witch-King fled from Glorfindel, and Gandalf both battled several Wraiths, and defeated the Balrog. Without just wanting to crap on WK, this is sort of my personal bar. We are told that the Istari were embodied in the form of old men, and labored eith all of their shortcomings, yet Gandalf dueled Durin's Bane foe days, using magic and much stamina, and won. The Balrog might also be a bit hard to gauge the might of, but it had scale, elemental power, and was an experienced combatant that Gandalf still somehow bested. That Gandalf could do this, and before that run off the Nazgul, revealing that he had power that could hurt them, and thus they were not invulnerable, leads me to think a stronger at that same time Saruman could do so, too. I'm not saying the Lord of the Nine would have no chance, but a Wizard is a bit of a special case, and I think Saruman would best him.

[@DrGeneralkumar82]

Do Sauron vs Feanor!!

[@BeefMcQueenIII]

2:21 Whole gang lookin like Dimmu Borgir

[@kurtreese7408]

First thought, I’d say Saruman destroys the witch king in single combat. But even if that/the Nazgûl aren’t immune to the Wizard’s tongue, I think if he killed one or two, Sauron would send them all

[@WaggaDaBagga]

My Theory on who of the Witch King of Angmar and Istari Sauruman the wise wizard in a Maia's body. The Witch-king is one of the Nasguls and the Nine Wraiths of the One Ruling Ring. The white Saruman failed in his own mission in Middle Earth. And used the black glass ball and asked the evil eye what to do. Sauron's voice answered: Give me an army worthy of Mordor. And then orcs came to the Iron Tower and asked: Master what shall we do? Saruman replied: We have a lot of work ahead of us. Cut down all trees. Sauruman's plan was also in the works. Armor, helmets and weapons were forged. And an Orc army was made the size of a human, only stronger and more violent. "Uruk Hai". These had the ability to mash in broad daylight. I think Saruman would have won. Because he had his wand and that he was also white.

[@TimothySullivan-x8z]

I did forget, actually, the other excellent work, was the Nazgul, just men that they were, result from the first encounter, (good work).

[@mrmacura3421]

The Witch King's power was tied to that of Sauron and the Ring so that he was at his most powerful (in the third age) at the time of the War of the Ring. At this point however, much of Saruman's power had already dissipated because of the breeding of the Uruk-Hai and the construction of machines (like with Melkor and Sauron; that's what the quote of Merry is about) which is why he was so weak after Isengard had been destroyed. So both of them would never actually face each other at the height of their powers

[@BoyKagome]

Witch King, Gandolf was scared of him and lol stomped Saruman. " Your staff is broken."

[@havershelihaversheli]

the thing is, that the movies didnt Show us who is really stronger. In the books, the nazgul were strong, but the istari(maiar) are way more powerfull. So your argument is, that because gandalf the white lost against the witchking in the third movie, saruman would not have a Chance... right? The thing is, if you Look at this Topic like that, then pls explain why and how Aragorn won against many nazgul to defend the Hobbits (he fuked the witchking aswell), and he is someone wothout any real magical powers Its like star wars, how could anakin have won against Count dooku, when dooku fuked kenobi(even while he fought anakin aswell there, so it was 1vs2) when obiwan won against anakin? Its the same Situation... I would say (to answer your question about the fight between gandalf and the witchking, what doesnt break the lore rules from the books) is that the witchking suprised gandalf with an unexpected kind of attack, what i mean is that gandalf didnt expect that the witchking would have and use this Kind of ability, so when he used this ablility, gandalf couldnt realy recognize what kind of spell the witchking is using and so he couldnt defend himself against it. That would be the only idea i can give you about this Topic which makes sense, because it doesnt break the fact from the books that gandalf is stronger than the witchking (about the pure strength of their powers) So because gandalf didnt expect this kind of attack from him he lost. If gandalf would have been expecting this he would have won because gandalf > witchking (powerwise). So if you Look at that in that way, saruman would have won against the witchking (only if he didnt expect this attack aswell, he may have lost the fight) BUT for the movies, The Real reason why the witchking "won" against gandalf Was that the movie would have been less interesting if gandalf fuks everyone without any Problems, because the more powerful a villian is, the more interesting a Story gets. (Like darkseid/thanos for example) and they only did that, because sauron never fought against someone in the third movie. They needed a villian who is realy fighting and a big threat aswell.

[@worldtraveler930]

How about Gimley against Thour Oakenshield?!? 🤠👍

[@CybeleCotter]

I don't think Saruman's voice would have an affect on the Nazgul, especially their King. Their nine rings woud have a much greater influence than the voice of a wizard,

[@zacharypfefferkorn6895]

They wear rings created by a Maiar, Saruman IS a Maiar.

[@Dr_Footbrake]

@@zacharypfefferkorn6895 iirc with his voice Saruman also warded off a handful that came to Orthanc at one point around the time he had captured Gandalf. Though can’t remember 1) how many and 2) whether the Black Captain was amongst them

[@shovelchop81bikeralex52]

Gimli vs an armoured battle troll! (i'm in Swansea down the road from you lol)

[@annaroselarsen4218]

This was a fun vid ! I would say it would be a close tie but Sauron would win

[@Noname-jr8bm]

Galadriel vs Sauron without the one ring

[@Dr_Footbrake]

It took the White Council to drive him out of Dol Goldur so I don’t see Galadriel winning that

[@keananadams6541]

sauron v fingolfin. lets see it lads

[@d0nKsTaH]

Everyone knows that Saurumon has that wicked Lightsaber. He fought Kenobi and Yoka pretty well with it. He also has that lightning Sith spell to use....

[@redbarchetta8782]

My bets would be with Saruman.

[@justinah7400]

In ROTK book Gandalf tells Pippin that Sauruman could still destroy the fell beast the Nazgul were riding on even without his staff. That should tell us everything we need to know if Sauruman had his staff

[@kreuzrittergottes9336]

Dumb question. Saurumon is a Maia and by default more powerful.

[@ultramaximusreviews]

Saruman vs Tom Bombadil

[@TheUndeda]

Why was there no mention of the scene where the Witchking shatters Gandalf's staff ? Surely that could serve as a reference point for strength comparison

[@michaelcolthart4006]

Because that never happened in the book…..

[@TheUndeda]

@@michaelcolthart4006 are you sure ? I read the books a long time ago, I think something similar happened in the book

[@venkelos6996]

I'm not one to usually crap on the powers of the Nine, but Wizards are among my favorite things, and I feel Saruman cod have won this battle. "Lesser" beings than the White Wizard stymied the Black Captain, in his wars of ages past, and his own supernatural powers were not always shown to be so incredible. Saruman's voice could deceive him, ad he told the Nazgul he didn't know of the Shire, but Gandalf did. If they hadn't stumbled upon Grima, Saruman's deceit likely would have gone unnoticed. As for Saruman's resilience, I'm led to believe that he, at the time, was more powerful than Gandalf the Grey, and Gandalf battled the Balrog for days, before succumbing to death. Gandalf was strong, but he didn't simply confront Goblins, Trolls, or other threats openly; he didn't seem able to tank all threats, and avoided violence when feasible. Still, if Durin's Bane had real strength, like it used to kill Durin VI, and Gandalf could fend that off for days, all while waging battle all across Moria, I assume a Wizard who stalked the lands of the East for centuries, surrounded by Sauron's underlings, could do something similar. Sure, his throat got slit, and he died like any mortal might, but I feel he could have used stunts similar to the above to fight the Witch King, and defeat him. Destroy him? Probably not, but best him? I think so. That's my opinion, anyway.

[@davidirizarry6216]

Saruman and the Bene Gesserit would make a good team up.

[@ahmedbelakbyer3791]

One thing that i could not understand is gandalf staff , the staff resisted to the balrog hits and the balrog have an equivalent power to sauron himself, but couldnt resist the witchking whos just a servitor of Sauron

[@MarchHare59]

No man can kill the Witch King, but Saruman isn't a man.

[@Mathemagical55]

Silly question. Gandalf was attacked by all nine Nazgul simultaneously on Weathertop and was able to defend himself.

[@jhallam2011]

Saruman would end the Witch King! As far as versus I want Galadriel and Sauron.

[@Dr_Footbrake]

Given it took Gil-Galand AND Elendil (at the cost of their own lives) to defeat 2nd age Sauron I suspect that version wipes the floor with Galadriel. In the third age it also took the White Council to remove him from Dol Goldur so I’d give Sauron the nod there as well, but by a lesser margin than 2nd age Sauron

[@LouisHuttley]

What about Aargon vs witch king

[@williamlaney7208]

It would be cool to see a war among the wizards.

[@MichaelDouglas-24]

I was gonna say theres no way even if Sauron had possession of the ring that the witch king could defeat a Maiar being.

[@RyanGr33n]

According to the book, the Witch King was no match for Galfalf the White, so while Saruman was the White, he would have also outmatched the Witch King, especially considering that the Nazgûl were less powerful at that point in time. After Gandalf became the White and Saruman had “fallen”, of course no.

[@jessicaroberts5956]

Hey can you do LOTR vs the Marvel universe? No ones done it yet 🤯

[@jasonwelsh417]

Sauron vs Ancalagon Huan vs The Witch King

[@jakobrenner2230]

It’s tricky. At their peaks Curumo would obliterate the Witch King: I cannot stress enough the huge difference there is between an undead sorcerer and a fully revealed Maia. No contest there… _However_ in the War of the Ring, the Witch King in his final moments was augmented by the dark power of Sauron and Saruman lied paranoid and delusional at Orthanc as Saruman of Many Colours. In these states, I think Saruman no longer has the nobility and stature to repel the Witch King as Gandalf the White could.

[@lordcorax6918]

Gandalf himself said in the books that Saruman couldn't face the 9 without getting the One Ring first if i recall correctly.

[@simpsontrips4606]

Do one on Gothmog vs. Sauron

[@mattiasgyllstrom8360]

Sauron was a leader and Gothmog was a war machine, one on one the latter takes it.

[@Alamo-cz5xc]

Tulkas vs Melkor Rd2. Fight!

[@grigorimonaselidze1423]

I... I need to know where is this artwork from...

[@The_Story_Of_Us]

The books do kinda cut off the Witch King and Gandalf's confrontation before any fight starts, but he was getting fully ready to take on Gandalf before Rohan arrived to the battle, boasting prematurely of his victory. People will point to the Maiar/Istari thing, but like that's invalid, because not only have mortals and elves defeated Balrogs before, but the Witch King is the foremost servant of the greatest Maiar that ever lived who was a powerful sorcerer even before Sauron corrupted him. If Gandalf can take away Saruman's power, surely Sauron can give power to the Witch King, perhaps explaining why he once fled from Glorfindel, he has been endowed with more power over time. He was certainly up there with the most powerful beings in Middle-Earth aside from Sauron.

[@fireinthesky3379]

Ok so basic powerscaling, even tho Tolkien's lore is not basic at all, and power in his world doesn't always mean fighting ability, destructive capabilities ECT. Gandalf = or > the 9 nazgul at once as the grey on weathertop and dares not challenge saruman. As the white Gandalf is shown to be above Saruman both in the movies and in the books. The added demonic power to the Witch king in return of the king has made him more powerful than Gandalf in the moves since they needed a villain for that movie that wasn't Sauron, but in the books its implied Gandalf was above him still, as the witch king was alone, loosing this "team buff" when with the other nazgul implying he was on the same level as the Gandalf the grey on weathertop, acting cocky against Gandalf, not knowing he got a power buff, and is later somehow implied again that he died because he was so cocky because of that added demonic power, which wasnt actually as much of a buff as he thought it was, so he should be bellow Gandalf the white and Saruman.

[@frankgallagur2045]

Ungoliant with the power of the 2 trees and gems VS Gothmog with the one ring.

[@trading47138]

Eonwe vs Peak Sauron

[@kirbymarchbarcena]

WITCH-KING: Your voice is weak, wizard! SARUMAN: You should listen to my song "JINGLE HELL" which made me the oldest singer who made it to top 18 of the American Billboards

[@michaeljones9553]

Saruman only lost because he was stripped of his power by his betters.

[@kurtsell8376]

Just to clarify we’re comparing the OmegaChad who destroyed Arnor and cast his shadow over Gondor for nearly a thousand years from the taunt to them that was Minas Morgul to the old fogie who failed to take a single castle before being killed by the weakest dwarf knock offs this side of gnomes?

[@vishaalsinghchauhan6440]

It depends on location. First, in orthanc and most of middle earth then Saruman Wins. Yes the witch king might be a better warrior and or duellist, sauruman is just way too powerful. He is still a mair. However in morder or at minas morgul/ fully rebuilt Angmar, the witch king has a good chance, especially if this is at night and Sauron has the ring. I believe the only way the witch king wins is in a scenario at night, in Mordor, and with Sauron bearing the ring, he takes it

[@rayden120]

I get the feeling that Saruman was jealous of Sauron even back in the old days.

[@TarMody]

What if Túrin and Tuor had met at the Ponds of Ivrin, and Túrin had gone to Gondolin?

[@BattlestarZenobia]

The many colours is so off putting that the Witch King gasps 😂😂 is he wearing a Colin Baker’s Doctor Who costume?

[@Mrdjs1133]

I once had the idea to pit Sauron vs Sephiroth, but I think Sephi just stabs him lmao

[@SrenHolm-k3o]

Before watching: Saruman is a demigod being, so ancient and powerful he was present at the creation of the world. He even defeated Gandalf the Grey, who was capable of defeating a Balrog. The witch king is a corrupted human ghost slave. Saruman wins 100%. Saruman: "I am no man. I am a Maiar!"

[@bobafett1313]

Seeing as how the Nazgûl’s power increases as Sauron’s power and reach over middle earth increases I would say it depends on how powerful Sauron is at the time. The Witch King is extremely powerful in both sorcery and as a warrior and I believe he is a black Numenorean even though it’s not said he is. I think the Witch King could win. If the Witch King is allowed to fight in his full power and not concealed as he and the other Nazgûl were on weather top.

[@nataliazivanovic4399]

Gimli vs Eomer! 😁

[@erieperry8241]

I'd love to see a Feanor vs Galadriel vid. The two greatest of the Noldor, both so similar and yet so different.

[@oblivion9202]

There are quite a few Noldor far greater than Galadriel like Fingolfin, Fingon or Finarfin. She is very powerful but not ''one of the greatest''

[@philipquist771]

I'd love to hear angoliant vrs sauron (with his ring)

[@KatarzynaMatylla]

She almost ate Morgoth... sure, he was weakened, but I'm pretty sure she'd have no problem wit Sauron.