Intermittent Problems and How to Charge For Diagnostic Time

[@carolinem.9800]

loved this video ! my van couldn't be at a better place than Danner's ! (I'm studying scannerdanner's book.) I only bought the #$%^ FixD because the van threw a weird code on I 95 in rush hour in 2020 during hurricane zeta towing a trailer--and it was only a bad gas cap seal. (PS- I never drive w the the fixd in place.since 8/21 I have the bosch autel OBDII. ) (PSS: I am one of those customers who's happy to have paid all the hourly diagnostic charges to all the shops who looked at this and will also record all the live data you want. my notes on repairs already done are below. ) thanks Paul! looking forward to part 2. . .

[@ScannerDanner]

You're awesome Caroline. I just want to make sure that you know that my rant about paying for diagnostic time had absolutely nothing to do with you. I just used this opportunity to talk about a very difficult subject in my field. I saw too that you're a premium member? Thank you! There is another 40 minutes to this first part that is up on the website. Caleb has almost completed part 2 and we will have that up this weekend as well. I have you're email, thank you! But I want to wait until the rest of this series is out, and you see it, before we talk okay? p.s. I didn't poop in your van 😅

[@XLAND101]

Caroline: I have to admit, this is kind of the weirdest scenario I have seen. Your write up is immaculate (to a point.) You are a Subscriber to this Channel. I see that you are also a Premium Member. You Purchased his Book.... I am coming up on 30 Years Wrenching. My Father quit Purchasing updates for his Red Brick (MT 5200) in 1999. I have personally purchased and updated Solus, Solus Pro, Modis, Verus Pro, and now owe less than $800.00 on the Zeus. I have spent over $200,000.00 in what tools I own. I found ScannerDanner roughly a year ago and he has taught me more how to use my Scanner than any Snap On Demonstration Video. I plan on doing what you have already done, just have to plan my Finances through my Tool Truck payments.... You are following the right guy, and I plan to be right behind you...

[@ScannerDanner]

@@XLAND101 and I'll answer any questions you have along the way my friend. Thank you!

[@carolinem.9800]

@@XLAND101 I found scannerdanner and his most excellent book only after about 120 hours of watching every KZbin video that mentioned random p0300 misfires. (and writing down all the weird symptoms this van was giving. ) (also read lots of advice on line: 'look for a cracked new AC Delco spark plug plug right out of the box. ' look for an o 2 sensor not screwed in or with wire rubbing on the frame. ' 'look for bad p c m grounds,' 'bent pin on the e c u' . 'you probably floated the valves. ' 'just do a smoke test'. ) I did the free 'Presto Auto lite car mechanic' videos on youTube & bought a decent OBDII (and ditched fixd.) the fuel system / oscilloscope use is so well explained in Paul's book. the yearly premium for scannerdanner is less than one mechanic hour of time here in PA. (PS your tool set is enviable. I remember helping my dad work on our cars with old-fashioned tools-- no 'wheel sensors', no ABS, no OBD s. )

[@stevenayala2324]

Caroline your a strong women doing your own research on your van more power to you may God bless you wit open eyes and ears !

[@davidduke7531]

As a technician of 25 years, thank you for this video and your message. Greatly appreciated.

[@twistedwrench490]

Holy hell someone FINALLY laid it out CLEAR as day ! This is our daily frustration with the customer and UNREASONABLE expectations. Not saying every customer but more than not. Thanks Paul! God bless

[@jimbeckettplay]

You're not wrong, however, customer expectations are usually unreasonable because they don't know any better. (There are always those few ass-hats, but they are in the minority.) Part of your job is to set your customer's expectation level by being honest and truthful, and by letting them know what is reasonable to expect from you, and by letting them know that their problem may not be easy to diagnose if you have little or no information to go on. Too many people do not put in the effort to set expectations properly, and it almost always bites them in the ass.

[@carolinem.9800]

@@jimbeckettplay: I'm 'the customer. ' I'm also an engineer who spent 40 years as a consulting engineer whose employer charged my time for every job we did. So I fully expect to pay for every hour of diagnostic time spent by terrific mechanics like Paul Danner's people and the 1st 2 independent shops who tried their best to diagnose a very tough problem.

[@DAZ_SR]

Can’t agree more, the problem started back in the day when guys would look hoping to sell the job. Difference is in the 70’s and 80’s cars took about 5 minutes to diagnose.

[@DAZ_SR]

@@jimbeckettplay and to give them the ability to come back without being embarrassed cause they didn’t believe you no found out at the next 3 shops they called…..we don’t have to fight for work any longer….there’s not many of us left.

[@dakotanusser7501]

Im a mobile technician/ garage owner in NW Oklahoma. Like every other tech I understand that these type of videos are not your bread and butter content. But the opportunity to see that other technicians are going through the same struggles, technically and morally, that i do is an incredibly reassurance. Thank you for you time making this video. As a local parts guy that was instrumental in my career used to say “ half my job is about educating the public about our industry”

[@ScannerDanner]

Thanks so much Dakota!

[@johnjohannemann1220]

As I’ve stated in previous scanner dinner videos I am a 64-year-old Ford Senior master technician. Since the beginning of all the D one I have reached that a diagnostic fault code is a symptom. It is not a diagnosis! Good job as always. Love what you do.

[@wrenchoperator6435]

Retired GM dealer tech here.Regarding PCM grounds - I have run into a few vehicles that had PCM ground issues, and I even remember a couple TSBs years ago suggesting to add addition ground wires. Apparently the OEM PCM ground may have been of insufficient wire size to handle the current loads under all conditions and there was residual voltage on the PCM ground pins because of a voltage drop on the ground wire. The solution to a few of them was to splice into the PCM ground wires very close to the PCM and run two additional 18awg wires to new dash or engine grounding locations. Obviously we have no way of knowing if this is related to your problem, but if you're willing to consider doing the work additional grounds won't hurt anything either. I also find it interesting that the problem only seems to show up when it's thoroughly warmed up and under load. You mentioned running low on fuel supply as a possibility. Keeping in mind the engine runs richer when cold than it does hot, if it is related to fuel I suggest looking at a fuel pump control module, including the wiring, or a weak pump when hot. You didn't mention what engine this has or if it's direct injected or SPFI - so maybe that's not an issue. Is this a GM V8? Other considerations could be hydraulic lifters doing weird things when hot, causing a loss of compression? You certainly have an unusual one and it will definitely take some investment in time. I agree with your 20 minute or 4 hour time estimate. :) Oh, and FIXD is evil! I hate them too!

[@stevestanil]

4sho

[@awbrigham8191]

All 4 of us hate fixd

[@Troy_Built]

I've fixed some weird problems by adding an extra ground.

[@carolinem.9800]

shop #2 a vey respected independent mechanic was asked to clean and check the e c u / p c m grounds. they did, and also replaced the CKpos S ; and relearned it. the van ran great for a while then p0300 came back. . . no chevy TSB ever mentioned any upsizing of wire size to the grounds and believe me we pulled them all. .

[@jman28lamplight]

I work for an independent euro car shop. We frequently have vehicles in our shop with these type of issues. It usually ends up in a disappointed customer and an underpaid tech. Good topic.

[@redrustyhill2]

The fact these issues are common is very disturbing and just more proof that technology is only making us poorer and more frustrated. It is NOT making life better

[@leefhead1]

It’s kind of funny, as mechanics were constantly complaining that we don’t have enough information from a customer, but sometimes too much information can lead you way down the wrong road. If I get a vehicle that’s been to multiple shops or even another tech from my shop, I take their information into consideration but start at step 1. Great work as usual Paul.

[@404notfound.....]

This is the kind of customer every shop wants!! Sure helps point in the right direction for diag work.

[@carolinem.9800]

I'm the customer, and believe you me I have tried to record every thing so a mechanic can diagnose this. .

[@jrhageman1]

I've had a couple of customers that have had intermittent problems and have 2nd or 3rd car so I've had them fill with fuel and let me drive it for a month to work out the problem. fortunately I live in a small community and have a decent reputation so they trust me. I'm glad that one's not at my shop , good luck Paul.

[@russellmccloud5020]

It takes many years to develop tacit knowledge of understanding these types of problems. Developing a hypothesis then doing the necessary testing is what is required to narrow down and pin point these type of issues. Mr. Danner is one of the best there is out there in the field!

[@ScannerDanner]

Thank you Russell

[@ThecardoctorTV]

Thank you for figuring this one out before it came to my shop in Alaska as a last resort. I don’t have time for those two hour test drives. Haha. Great vid.

[@stationaryenginesworldwide]

i have read all the comments before mine, and there are so many different possibilities and ideas for a fix.... this is why Mr. Danner said you cannot fix a problem with just a fault code. Vehicles today are a very complex machine and require a lot of diagnostics to repair and that equates to time, and a tech needs to be paid for every minute it takes. Looking forward to the fix on this van...throw that fixd out at the next camp site!

[@DillysADV]

I often find that the vocabulary the customer uses may not be accurate and can lead you astray. Educating the customer is hard but Worth it.

[@lawsautomotive108]

Hello, I came across that FIXD DLC pick in the description and I had to make a comment. I do not like that company either. They are really mean people just trying to make a buck. But I checked out the rest of the video. I came across an issue like this before with thep0300 and P0336 crankshaft position sensor performance. On my road test I had my leads hooked up to the cam and crank sensor and B1s1 B2s1 o2 sensors. I found a really weird signal from the crankshaft positioning sensor it was almost like a low volt field collapsing. I should have saved the screenshot. Despite that I found a bad and misplaced block ground. It was causing the reluctor ring to become magnetized and giving a false reading on the crankshaft positioning sensor. I hope this helps you out or anybody else that comes across these problems. Lab Scopes are the only way to diagnose today! Have a good one. Dean

[@davidsawyer7880]

Commercial Electrician 35 plus years. Arrive at the job and start to trouble shoot. Many customers after about ten minutes would inquire if I had found the problem(s). I would bite my tongue. This is what I wanted to say. It's a screwdriver not a wand. After looking at some of the earlier comments I echo some of those thoughts. As a cool side note saw a bad Power Wagon on Instagram looked similar to yours.

[@ScannerDanner]

Thanks David! You sure it wasn't mine? 😉

[@GiardinaMG]

This sounds like it would be a great use for a driveability dyno. Something you can apply load and see the information in real time. Sounds like that would be the only way to duplicate within a reasonable amount of time without the tech needing togo out of the shop for hours. Unfortunately the cost of infustructure for said items greatly would increase diagnostic cost. Great message Paul by the way. Always love your videos.

[@colestowing8695]

Your car will never make that noise for the mechanic. Your car is like "That's our special noise. I only make that noise for you" 😂

[@eurbanautotech]

I love that you haven't forgotten what it's like to be a "regular tech". As in a tech who is an EMPLOYEE of an auto repair BUSINESS! I work at a very small independent repair shop. I have keys so I can stay late whenever I want to do all kinds of testing for my own learning and improving. I also have a boss that's cool with me spending extra time trying to be thorough in my testing but at the end of the day there are bills to be paid and a parking lot that's not getting any emptier... If you spend an hour trying to replicate faults or rule things out then you can charge an hour's diag, however, if you spend FIVE hours you really can't charge more than one hour if you don't have an answer... Mad props!

[@DAZ_SR]

Wrong. The hour is a good faith attempt at diagnosing by a qualified tech, it’s not a guarantee, if youre a half hour in and like Paul said, it’s either 20mins or 4 hours, go tell the owner what’s up and let him call the customer and ask if they want to keep going, if they don’t wrap it up.

[@robertmedina6875]

Paul you’re the smartest guy I know if anybody can do it you can! I’m sending love and good vibes your way brother I hope you feel better! Sending my best to Caleb and the grandkids!

[@davidb.fishburn9338]

As a tech, thank you Paul, for saying what is the truth about scanpods like that fixd one. All those shops, and no mention of checking fuel pressure, checking compression, doing a leakdown test, and inspection of things like the injectors and the wiring harness. Recently my nephew had a misfire issue with his 02 sierra with the 8.1. It was consistent on cylinder 7. He changed the plugs, the coils packs, swapped the coil packs, even put seafoam in the gas tank. Nothing worked. I suggested swapping the fuel injectors, as it was the only thing he hadn't done. I helped him to pull the injectors, found the tips very dirty. Cleaned the tips and swapped the #7 injector with #2 just in case, as #2 is easier to get than #7. The misfire issue went away immediately. Goes to show that it sometimes isn't what it seems.

[@BigDog50001]

Hurry up and put part 2 on Premium Paul!! ;)

[@ScannerDanner]

Part 1 has about 35 more minutes to it and it will be up on Tuesday. Parts 2 and 3 are still in the editing room 😉 Thank you!

[@wyattoneable]

Having completed most of your lessons in the book while following along with your videos, I think I have become a professional customer. (ha ha) I value a shop that has confident technicians and can communicated effectively. It's easy to pay the price when you feel like they care about your issue.

[@ScannerDanner]

Thank you Wyatt. You've been a very long time supporter of what I do. Appreciate you so much

[@richardmitchell7836]

Ironically enough I just did a parasitic draw diag and it was the Fixd plugged in causing the draw. pulled it out and put it in the trash and fixed it, If it wasn't for you, Ivan and Eric I wouldn't be doing diags on the weekends which is something that I really enjoy given the challenges that can come with it. This video you Nailed it. Thanks, brother Hope you and fam feel better soon!

[@TonyRule]

So they not only drain your wallet, they drain your battery too.

[@b0lbi]

I moved to a fleet that pays hourly.We had a very difficult no start diag that I spent about a week on. It has now been at the dealer for about a month and they have an engineering case on it. I got paid for every single second that I worked on that vehicle. That would not have happened in a flat rate shop and it needs to change because there is a lot of jobs nowadays where the nuts and bolts part is the minor part of the repair. It would make it a little easier if service riders would get information like you had here instead of just put check engine on occasionally.

[@mph5896]

You are fleet backed/paid by your employer. I doubt very many customers are going to pay for a week worth of searching without getting results. 30-40 hours x shop rate is EXPENSIVE. Your boss only has to pay your employment cost per hour to fix it. Their primary business to make a living is not vehicle repair in a fleet shop.

[@b0lbi]

@@mph5896 That's the thing though when I worked in a dealer we had situations like that which ended up requiring an engineer to come down and we didn't get paid for it yet we're still working on it. I get they need to make money but I also need to get paid for labor performed.

[@mph5896]

@@b0lbi I agree. no shop should take advantage of a tech like that. You work on it, you should get paid if you are on flat rate. Dealer or owner can deal with the customer end of things.

[@xephael3485]

This van doesn't need a diagnostics, it needs a multi-volume book to keep its history in. 🤪🤣

[@sparkfixer9102]

We once had a GM van that would feel like starving for fuel and would not get over 35 mph. No codes. Scan data showed the van was doing 100+ mph at 35mph. Speed limiter was kicking in and was shutting off fuel. The pcm had the green crusties all in it. A new pcm fixed it. Got your book too. Don't have the t-shirt!

[@StationGarageSt]

Goat Herding and the Art of Diagnostics. When I was a boy I wanted a goat. My Granma said "don't buy that goat.....don't don't that's my advice". She new about goats. I bought the goat anyway . I was happy. Then it ate up the yard, escaped, ruined other peoples stuff, got found. Then few days later my beloved goat died. I cried. Now as a tech when we get a job like this in the workshop I think of gran. "It's a GOAT boys, it'll eat all our time, escape our diagnostics, ruin our reputation and then probably die anyways".

[@ScannerDanner]

What a great story. Sorry about your goat but it did make me laugh

[@PistonShack]

I have one of those books: "Engine Performance Diagnostics", one of the best tools in my toolbox:)

[@ScannerDanner]

Thank you!

[@James-fs4rn]

👍you guys aren't just good techs, you're good human beings!

[@Jason-cu1jp]

That's amazing that you pointed out that FIXD dongle. I had one of their adds pop up with a Karen going off at a mechanic. Disgusting company that perpetuates further customer ignorance. Always stuck in my mind how this only makes things harder for us. Joe's Auto Electrics mentioned something similar in one of his videos and I'm guessing this was probably the same company. Anyway, thanks for the awesome content, as always, and hope your family shake that cold soon!

[@ScannerDanner]

Disgusting company indeed

[@gieauto7175]

Test drive the vehicle, to verify complaint or develop diagnostic data path. One thing I've learned over the years is a good valid test drive. First try to mimic how the customer drives, then put the vehicle through its paces, through both upper and lower extremes. SD is on target with identifying the next test to perform. Gathering some data from the fuel pump, pressure and a pattern to drive the next test. He gave some excellent advise by informing the customer upfront of the probable outcomes of an intermittent issue. I'll be watching for the next video.

[@CubasAutomotive]

Great points made in the beginning of the video. I also read the comments before writing this and there is definitely a consensus of opinion, especially coming from fellow techs. Those codes of p0300 & p0336 are generated by RPM or the "inconsistencies" of it. The p0300 is due to the fact the slowing down of the crankshaft is all over the place, so the algorithm can't detect a specific cyl. Same goes for the P0336... PCM flags the sensor, because RPM is erratic, which typically makes PCM think the sensor isn't properly reading for whatever reason (sensor, connection, harness, but not an open). PCM has preset values and thresholds I'm sooooo looking forward to part 2. Figure out why the RPM is erratic, you'll definitely find the root cause of everything else. Fuel? Maybe. Injectors? Possibly. Bad grounds (weaker spark) to the coils? There's 1 per bank on rear of each head on these engines. I agree about HATING the FIXD gadget! I've diagnosed vehicles where this device also introduced its own set of problems. Backfeeds, keeps vehicles awake, or some other interference by having it plugged in all the time. So a customer would have an initial problem but compounded things by introducing another. Doesn't affect all vehicles this way, but something to keep aware. Fine to use to read codes and unplug when done. DON'T leave it connected. Also, DON'T go and replace whatever it says. Do the proper testing.

[@CubasAutomotive]

Correction** according to service info,, This engine has only 1 ground on the rear of the engine for all coils. Near CMP.

[@codysautodiagnosticsprogra8706]

Amen!! Could not agree more Paul! Techs need to be paid for their time, even if it is for test drives. All shop owners need to watch this!!

[@ScannerDanner]

Thanks Cody! Hope all is well with you and your family

[@robertmedina6875]

I’ve seen something similar to this what about a primary ignition coil breaking down under heat and load? This is kind of the symptom that I seen in a situation like this in the past what do you think?

[@jobu4638]

hot tea w half an organic lemon squeezed and scraped on the rim of your cup to get the pulp will fix [the teflon milk texture in your mouth and throat ]is effective at fixing or at least helping any type of cold.make sure you rinse after so you dont ruin your teeth [acid] ps i admire your logical aproach to things

[@johnjohannemann1220]

This was more of a PSA them a diagnosis. It was also much needed and will overdue, thank you!

[@billmonroe8826]

HOLY CRAP! Caroline put out a lot of money in a short amount of miles!

[@carolinem.9800]

haha, I sure did. and I can t ell you every independent mechanic I went to #1,#2 and now Paul's shop listened carefully and read the list of weird symptoms I'd recorded, and suggested things that might possibly fix it. PS I NEVER drove w the FIXD 'in. ' I have had the Bosch OBDII recording all live data since oct. 2021.

[@darioandrijasevic2804]

Come on Paul, upload part 2 on premium, we can't wait 😝

[@ScannerDanner]

There is actually about 35 more minutes to part 1 too and we will have it up after the holiday. Thank you!

[@Teknikracingcom]

@@ScannerDanner I subscribed just to see part 2! Now I have to wait?!? Ha.

[@ScannerDanner]

@@Teknikracingcom 500 plus other videos/classes to watch while you wait. 😉 Thank you!

[@xephael3485]

I've learned that people rarely get what they deserve.. especially when it comes to fair compensation.

[@Bojuh]

$145 an hour....if you don't charge that much come to nc

[@ThePickler61]

Love the dialogue on this Danner. Been in this situation many times getting it from both ends from bosses and customers. The only shop i fault (which probably was a service writer giving an uninformed opinion) was the particular shop in shadyside talking about a particular ignition component lol

[@jrneff9773]

will be top ten on your vids with customer interaction . thank you

[@LtBRS]

In the past, not having a dyno, I've put a car on blocks to "drive" replicate at various speeds/rpms/fuel inputs. I wanna see closure on this. Don't worry about your poop issues. They'll get worse as you get older.

[@scientist100]

Not something we want to hear 😅 I'm 32 now.

[@LtBRS]

@@scientist100 There is qualifyed truth contained in the "ignorance is bliss" saying.

[@mph5896]

No misfire felt or running rough. Might want to see if something is tricking the PCM into thinking its misfiring. A trans torque converter issue or harmonic balancer coming apart might be a place to check. Looks like not that problem with this case.

[@DiecastShowCustoms]

I had GM car with similar problems. Took me a while to find the problem but it turned out to have a very small crack on the upper manifold and was slightly mixing coolant with fuel. The problem got worse when the coolant reached temp and the thermostat opened up.

[@mph5896]

Intake on those LS engines have no coolant running through it.

[@DiecastShowCustoms]

@@mph5896 I know but it might be sucking in air thru a small crack. Maybe.

[@ironmike742]

@@mph5896 hmmm

[@joekuntzman4016]

You said so many useful and true things! thank you. I take on intermittents based on the customer's comprehension and reassuring me that they will pay. otherwise, I just send em off. I have worked for up to 5 hours for free before, I just don't do it anymore. P.S. thanks for calling out those awful commercials! I couldn't agree with you more on the way they come off.

[@Garrison_Auto_Solutions]

Grab the crank pulley and see if it moves in and out. May have "crank walk". That would explain the CKP sensor fault.

[@alexmessina3383]

Interesting! Had these kind of symptoms with a Ford Mondeo 2.3L 2009 a couple of months ago ... WOT run was going rich then lean then rich again during the run ... manual gauge appeared to be holding pressure during run ... in the end the issue was a dodgy corroded connector to the fuel pump pigtail which was located under car.

[@Ken-wu6hr]

I got out of the Army in 92 & started in the field. AZ started with the free scans. I can’t tell you how many times I’ve asked do you want me to diagnose your problem or put your part on. I have told people maybe they need to make AZ fix it. I still very seldom buy parts from there

[@shermanbird3248]

This is for you, Paul..... I have been a professional Tech for 46 years now. Currently owning my 3rd shop in that time span. Going on 20 years with this one. THE BEST advice I can offer you is to read Terry Greenhut's book about selling automotive repairs, especially where he talks about getting diagnostic charges. It literally changed my approach and immensely improved my diagnostic cash flow when I applied his methods. Also, Mark Warren has tendered advise about diagnostic charges. As far as the TV ads about those dongles, these people are preying on overall ignorance in the layperson. I tell my customers up front that there will be diagnostic charges for my time, and investment in tens of thousands of dollars worth of equipment AND my knowledge, regardless of whether or not they choose to have me perform repairs. Players will leave, and those who really want their cars fixed, leave the car with me with the understanding that it takes time to find and fix the problem accurately.... and that isn't free. My business model is artisanal, not production based, so I can afford to take inordinate amount of time to fix these weird problems..... And I get my fair share of them! I do charge for my time, period. You seem stressed and frustrated.... Get some rest. Peace!

[@weshawkins7165]

18:10 into it and I’m thinking it’s a ground problem somewhere. Being a van conversion makes it that much harder but in your area of the country corrosion could be an issue also. Customer needs to understand the time it will take to find it and needs to understand time is money regardless of a diagnosis or not. Ok continuing with the video. Ok at the 26:26 mark and hearing the rpm I agree with you, need to check fuel pump pressure.

[@PhillipBailey]

Possible electrical interference on crank sensor circuit due to bad diode in alternator? I'd probably try recording cam and crank signals together with diode ripple. Or possibly instruct the customer on how to disable the alternator when this happens. I pretty sure it's fairly accessible even in the van. Run new wires to the crank sensor from the PCM.

[@louiscates6975]

"Can't you just hook it up to the machine?" "It will tell you everything." Lol. Great video from beginning to end.

[@danialengel7078]

I worked at a GM dealership and there's a bulletin out for an ECM update for a P0300. My question is, when do you decide to perform an update versus chasing your tail on an intermittent?

[@josephwash109]

The Chevrolet dealer I started out at had porters who could be summoned to take vehicles on test drives to duplicate customer complaints. I was one of those porters, and I got sent out a few times on those test drives. I was good at either duplicating a customer's complaint or verifying that the repair to the vehicle was successful and fixed the problem. Sometimes, the description of the problem by the service manager or advisor was inaccurate. Maybe that stemmed from poor information from the customer? I enjoyed doing it, but they rarely sent me because I suppose I was more beneficial to use for washing and detailing cars.

[@carolinem.9800]

I made an appointment to drive van in 'hot' and coding p0300; thought they'd get their fancy scan6 gm scanner on it to pull live data. they refused to, instead the van sat on the chevy dealer lot for 3 next weeks . (it was coding p0300 when I drove it in. ) they did not test drive it hot to get live data. after 3 weeks of it sitting there they told me 'their 1 truck lift wasn't free yet ' . so I took van back home.

[@josephwash109]

@@carolinem.9800 I'm sorry to hear about your terrible dealer experience. It reminds me of an incident that happened where I worked. A customer had an Uplander van with an intermittent ABS light. They had it serviced at my dealership for the issue, but the problem wasn't fixed. When the light came back on, they returned to the dealership with the light on. I was instructed to leave the van running because the light wouldn't come back on if the ignition was shut down. I left the van running by the technician's stall, but he wasn't around. However, I left the work order on the dash, so he'd know what the issue was. It was his comeback. A few minutes later, he found the van, jumped in, and peeled rubber up to the service drive like a two-year-old having a tantrum, screaming "Who put that there?! Who put that there?!" The service advisor told him that I did that, per his instructions. I'm not sure why he got so agitated. Sometimes I feel like people just don't want to do their job.

[@carolinem.9800]

@@josephwash109 if there is an intermittent fault and the vehicle gets to the mechanic ‘hot and coding, ‘ seems to me that it would save a lot of diagnostic time for the unit to be put on the scanner while it s coding . I had made a special appointment at chevy dealer for a ‘customer will wait for vehicle ‘ slot with understanding from the ‘tech advisor ‘ van could be taken hot and test driven. tech advisor apparently forgot to tell the mechanic that. . . very disappointing. I will say that shop 2 offered to let me drive it it when it was coding (after their cKposSen replacement, ) but the van knew this so refused to code for quite a while .

[@JimmyMakingitwork]

Man during the crank relearn it had symptoms a few minutes in. So much for 2 hour drives and no symptoms...Our world. Good stuff.

[@Teknikracingcom]

I thought the same. One mans test drive isn't the same as the next.

[@daviecrockett2272]

from a customer point of view.. I took the car we drive to 2 "specialists" who combined had the car for a a week and a half and the car came back from both of them steadily worse. Both of them were able to replicate the problem quite easily. The cleaned the wires and connections that lead to the ignition system, the first specialist even pulled the intake manifold off to spray head cleaner because he claimed the problem was too much carbon on the valves. After a crap load of money spent on a car I don't even own, I fixed the damn thing myself with a coil. I even tried to tell the first bloke what I thought it was and he did everything but check it.. So, yeah sure, you need to be paid for your time, but I feel totally ripped off by these specialists, so much so, I plan to buy a good scanner, do your courses to get up to speed and fix the damn thing myself in future.

[@ScannerDanner]

Unfortunately that is the other side of this, as most mechanics are parts changers and have no idea how to actually troubleshoot. And the real sad part is that is 9 out of every 10 techs out there. To those types, absolutely you should not be paying for diagnostics time, because all they're doing is firing parts at it. Clearly what they did in your circumstance. I'm so sorry. But at the same time look forward to training you so this never happens again. Good job on fixing it yourself!

[@kevinpulver4027]

Caroline is the dream customer! I hope she gets an answer soon.

[@Troy_Built]

A friend of mine had some similar problems with his Tahoe. Once the parts cannon was fired he had someone diagnose it. It ended up having a crack in the fuel pump module. On a truck of my grandparents I had an intermittent transmission noise that was very obvious. I took it to a shop about 30 miles away to get someone who specialized in Dodge transmissions. Three guys test drove it but couldn't find anything. I filled the tank and told the owner to give to one of the guys and have him drive it home and to lunch with a recorder on it. He said as long as I was willing to pay the gas they would drive it and hope to catch it. On the fourth day it acted up and they caught it. Having experience trying to find an intermittent I knew what it might take.

[@nm-qt2hb]

The live 10 minutes from shop. I suggest to my customer this. I take the vehicle home with me and take the second exit. That gets me highway speeds for testing and saves the customer money. We are now at the point where at times, it is cheaper to change the part them the time/cost to diagnose it.

[@billmonroe8826]

Just listening to it while your driving sounds like it's starving for fuel. I agree with your rant, Paul, but I think it applies to more than just mechanic shops and after driving the van would you have given the rant or would you have been in a different mood?

[@ScannerDanner]

The rant would probably have never happened had I simply drove the van first lol But what a great opportunity to talk about these types of situations right?

[@billmonroe8826]

@@ScannerDanner Yeah, I thought that was the case. :-) Definitely time for people to have a better understanding!!!

[@waynedavis1214]

Worked on a Ford Fiesta once.It would start in the afternoon around 4 everyday.You could drive it for a hour no problem.Once vehicle was switched of wound not start again till next afternoon around same time.After a week it became a joke.Eventualy found a plug under side skirting wasn't quite clipped in all the way from factory.

[@Nabeelco]

When do we see the rest of the video on Premium? I can't wait.

[@ScannerDanner]

I'll get it up for you tomorrow my friend. Giving my webmaster the day off today (memorial day)

[@mikesabin8568]

I would run bypass wires to the crankshaft sensor from the computer. I would also preform smoke test on intake engine cold and hot. Fuel pressure gauge while driving and scope crank sensor while driving

[@stevestanil]

Specially In a conversation van !

[@Portuguese-linguica]

Hay Paul I hope you and your family get better soon . Wish I could help with this van but only have novice experience with conversion vans . Only thing comes to mind is when my brother n laws Tahoe had a misfire code but ran good it was having a ecu ground issues on the board . ( Note posted this well watching videos halfway through ).

[@SkilledEddie]

I'm at a loss maybe you can help me. 1997 Chevy Tahoe 5.7 350 vortec. I have p0300 and p0307 codes. The misfire counts are up to 190 on cyl #7 every other cylinder no misfires. Check engine light blinks then eventually stops and stays light then blinks again. Bank 1 fuel trims very high short and long term over 20. Short term goes down as throttle goes up. I changed upstream 02 sensor, cap, rotor, #7 plug and cleaned the rest. Wires are newer. Swapped out coil and ignition module with a backup I had. Cleaned throttle body. Maf readings are normal. Checked intake vacuum with vaccum gauge reads 19Hg. steady. 34kpa on scan tool at idle. Did compression test all cylinders are in the 190 range except #3 at 150. I check frame body grounds sanded clean and reconnected. Checked fuel pressure I get 61/62 koeo and 56 running at idle. I give it throttle moves up a bit maybe 57. I don't know fuel trims are only high on 1 bank with the #7 misfire with about 190 counts every cycle. I took the throttle body off and looked far as I could inside the plenum I see one area with shiny metal small spot near #3 or #5 cylinders but the rest is all carbon but back cylinders some slight wetness. Long story short maybe #7 injector problem? Don't think it's a fpr because it would be mostly all clean in there from fuel washing. Thanks I know you can't diagnose over the internet but I did a lot so I figure there's not much else😆👍

[@ScannerDanner]

Injector is possible but also an internal vacuum leak can happen on these. To test for this condition: 1. Block off pcv hose 2. Block off breather hose for the pcv system 3. Pull dipstick and measure crankcase vacuum on the dipstick tube. It should slowly build psi and should NOT be into a vacuum at all.

[@SkilledEddie]

@@ScannerDanner thank you for the quick response I will try what you said thanks

[@SkilledEddie]

@@ScannerDanner I did that test today and it was building pressure very very little not vacuum. That's good 👍. I guess I'll just have to get in there and remove the intake plenum and really see if anything is wrong with injectors because I'm about out of ideas. I checked fuel pressure again koeo it's like 58/59 I'm reading different sources say 60-67 is needed for these spider injectors to work properly? I get around 55 while running at idle. I left the fuel gauge on after I shut it off to see how fast pressure leaks down. Drops down to like 45 after about 45 mine to an hour. Don't know if that's normal? One other thing is I had leaking exhaust flange gasket/donut for quite awhile. I've been doing some temporary fixes with muffler cement and it lasts for about a month then blows out. I tried to fix it recently and 2 studs broke so I bought a split flange repair and it seems like it's sealed now. I sprayed with soapy water no bubbles form. I was thinking that would cause all of this with the #7 misfires but 190?

[@ScannerDanner]

@@SkilledEddie my man, perfect. We at least eliminated that variable. 55 is good for idle on these and 62 KOEO or WOT Your misfire is all the time right? And cylinder specific, so fuel pressure was never really my concern. You've confirmed good spark on this cylinder too right? Can't remember if this is a distributor engine or cop

[@ScannerDanner]

@@SkilledEddie this is distributor in this year, with the flat style cap that is known for internal crossfiring. Take a test light to ground (incandescent style) and see how far the spark jumps out of the cap on the #7 compared to another cylinder. It should be able to jump outside of the cap electrode end about a 1/4" as the electrode is inside about a 1/2" further. So 3/4" gap total minimum. If it is weak on the #7, you have a cap issue. Easy test, let's eliminate that variable next before we go after the injector

[@paulfiebke3909]

Love to see the rest of this one, keep up the good work hope you and family get to feeling better and God bless you all

[@drift13b]

What are you thoughts on telling a customer to buy a data logger and keep it plugged in so we can have a data stream? Would it possibly help for an intermittent issue?

[@ScannerDanner]

Yes and no. For intermittent issues like that, it's okay to say no until it gets worse. I'm not wasting my time with a data logger that only records minimal information

[@davidsummers2616]

Also had a Ford Escalade with all the same symptoms end up being a number six injector was failing off and on replaced it ran fine been running fine since

[@jimmyhoward2076]

Do u. Use the small pocket Scopes

[@nissanzamyadtech.4856]

I will definetly check the valve adjestment in this situation

[@daytonpyro]

haha did you watch Schrodingers Box video? that was a good one...

[@ucallthatatweet]

I see some good suggestions in these comments. I still wonder if a van which appears to be modified to run some AC powered items could have something pretty unusual in its wiring. Even if the people who did the modification(s) researched it beforehand, I wonder if there's a yet-to-be-found quirk in a PCM, etc. contributing to the confusion.

[@carmo9693]

I am 20 minutes in, where is your crystal ball buddy. You need to buy one soon. Sheesh. I feel your pain from the past people always think you are charging for nothing. I love the video it is 100% on target, nobody want to pay, and i love when they either bring their car on empty or full to the max, where do you go from there. Hey Mr customer I need your vehicle at just under 3/4 tank of fuel so I can do a drive cycle from cold to hot and then another to either complete drive cycles for computer passing for inspection. They just do not know the pains we go thru. 95% of the customers bring cars with drive-ability problems on either E or damn near it and expect us to put gas in it to road test on our dime, umm wrong thinking. I need car at 3/4 tank.

[@salvadorgutierrezr5914]

😄😄😄😄😄saludos Scanner Danners the last part was funny 😄 have fun and thanks for the video 🙏

[@InsideOfMyOwnMind]

Don't go plugging random $41t into your car's DLC guys. You don't know what manner of harm can happen. Treat it like a lady. Don't risk some random POS giving your car a Software Transmitted Disease. Just as in life.

[@kenniefernandez]

Hey Paul hope you're good se here on Puerto Rico people think that you shouldn't charge for diagnostic only for a part change i have known people that when they callme to do the job they ask me how much i charge for diagnostic and when i tell them they just say ok leave it i go to autozone because they do it for free and couple of days later they call me again and tell me hey man i went to autozone they scanned my car and told me to buy a part that they sold me but the car still have the same issue , and i am lile ok that's why i charge for diagnostic troubleshooting autozone don't do troubleshooting and when i did the diagnostic guess what it wasn't the part that he bought the problem was on the wiring itself jajaj GOD BLESS YOU MAN YOU AND YOU FAMILY

[@normangallant9879]

Wow .If is not fuel starvation it could be a partly plugged exhaust.Anything is possible.O2could be the culprit also.And you are right for techs have to be paid.It is a hard for the customer and i get it.Today technology is getting harder and harder.Good luck on that one.Cannot wait on your next episode.

[@throttlebottle5906]

early in the past "repair list", I agree with that low mileage and not much usage, the fuel(or water-alcohol mix) has probably been doing many bad things making it scream about other sensors. unless there's lots of rust and rodent chews.🤔 now I'll watch and see.

[@Hitman-ds1ei]

It seems to be heat load dependent, you could drive it locked in a lower gear to increase heat load at lower speed with increased rpm, it used to be a common GM ckp sensor issue or use a heat gun to heat up area's to simulate heat load !

[@dtandfam8100]

Very true about the importance of compensation for the techs time.. It is also just as important for finding the right tech for the job. So yeah that's going to be on the shop. At the end of the day No one wins if the problem doesn't get fixed.. Interesting footage on the live data. I do see that each bank will go lean periodically. Was thinking that could be because of the misfire. Not necessarily fuel delivery.. But maybe there is a delay in data processing with tool?

[@madds6678]

Didn’t you know the computer tells you what’s wrong with it or so that’s what the customer says or is led to believe. Can’t tell you how many times we hear that & your right Paul the likes of fixd doesn’t help. Customers have unrealistic expectations & don’t want to pay for diagnostics plus the work load expectation at dealerships doesn’t help so no time factored in for complicated jobs. Even the managers have no idea the amount of time involved to properly diagnose cars I regularly get a car in & all I have had time to do is a scan & within 5 minutes their asking so what’s wrong with it. When it comes to intermittents that another ball park, many a time I get presented with a car that regularly has a fault but shows no symptoms of codes & I’m like well bring it back when it’s doing it & we’ll have a look several weeks later it comes back same scenario we go out with the customer & amazingly it won’t fault, you get the but it was doing it this morning they then want to keep driving until it does it after you’ve already been out for half an hour & explained you have other jobs to look at too. Even had one customer who refused to pull over & tried to take me on the motorway had jump out at a set of lights and get a cab back 😂. Worst has to be the squeak or rattle that happened once when cold on a wet Wednesday morning but you must find it. The motor trade is a mad house people have no idea of how it works or runs, don’t get me wrong I love diagnostics but I tell any new apprentice if you want an easy life & to be well paid do something else.

[@ScannerDanner]

Well said, thanks for helping others see too

[@stevenayala2324]

when you asked your bro “to come it a stop “he looked back like “iam bout to power brake this big fm “😏😂😂😂

[@retiredjedi6178]

ground from battery to frame connection can cause this. Sometimes they do battery to engine then flex from engine to firewall. Can only catch this with a lab scope.

[@tckenbob7572]

I’ve seen it on Impalas

[@danielmusat597]

Hi, Paul, So, the second part of this video will be only for people that pay you. I understand that. Tough times, huge inflation etc. You might be better for a short term but... you don't see the big picture: monetizing everything will increase the inflation. For everyone, including you. Inflation comes from a wrong economy where monetizing is more important than the work itself. Wall street knows better... I am not scalding you for this and I won't die if I don't see the second half of this repair. It is just a thought. Anyone is free to understand what they can. Cheers!

[@ScannerDanner]

I've been maintaining and growing a paid membership channel/program/online training website since 2015. This isn't something new. We just pulled this section out of one of our case studies and put it here because I felt it was important for both the tech and customers to hear this. That is all.

[@gregoryfairchild2460]

On these type problems I have a fuel pressure gauge extension and tape it to the windshield and drive it doing some 20-60mph full throttle runs. Almost sounds like bad gas, contamination water etc or injector issues. I'd take a sample let it settle. Pretty bad misfires on the sound.

[@isalmankhan1]

Amazing Love it😍 Thanks SD, totally agree with you & support you, on supporting us to get paid for diag time👍 I've been missing on a lot of your content due to Internet unavailability, but doing my best to catchup😉 Thank you for your kind words in your reply to my last comment, I couldn't imagine anything more, huge compliment for me😍 Stay Safe & Blessed Danner Family❤

[@joshuawelch9701]

cant wait for part 2 of this one!

[@daytonpyro]

i love your bro at 26:05 talking about how its set up like a camper. idk why i think that is so funny.

[@lukaszbialy7364]

CKP sensor fault might be thrown because of misfire. Without driving for few hours and recording every live data in scan tool and on the scope it will be a struggle to even start working on this van.

[@geoffadams1578]

Had same issue on my 2006 sierra 4.8. Chased it for 2 years and it ended up being serpentine belt causing p0300.

[@snapmantools]

i am and old timer but,how come no one ever mentions checking engine vacuum any more-do any of these other test show if a exhaust converter was partly blocked-i am out of it since 1980 when computer problems were showing up and no scan tools were around but i diag several Cadillacs that had oem triple wall exhaust pipes,where 1 layer inside the pipe would warp and restrict the exhaust and cause high speed problems.

[@TheDrewCharles]

Hi this is Drew,, if you can't find a hill and go up it at 60 miles an hour, perhaps you can find a friend with a dynamometer and then with the resistance on it as if you're going up the hill. I don't know it's just a thought? By.

[@TheDrewCharles]

Is it the load of going uphill at 65 mph? Or is it the angle which causes wires and stuff to juggle at a different angle you know, if you're going uphill at an angle, is it the load of going up the hill or is it the angle that the vehicle is positioned in relation to gravity, that causes gravity to move something that can then give codes. Just wondering . thank you?

[@meorge9359]

When is the video coming out on premium?

[@ScannerDanner]

Part 1 is done and we will have it up next week, after the holiday. Thank you!

[@nissanzamyadtech.4856]

I thought compression test to look for bad and miss alligen valve tapets will help. Because my mind was going to that side all time

[@dumisanitembanimtisi8411]

Hey Sir,thanks great job. Can I pliz have link or email I need the book

[@ScannerDanner]

www.scannerdanner.com thank you!

[@tomvleeuwen]

No matter how much awareness there is, these types of problems will still be annoying for both technicians and customers. Even if you get paid for your 2+ hours test drive, you didn't become a technician for driving a vehicle and especially if it doesn't act up, it's not pleasing work. Also for the customer it can be really expensive. I have one solution for the problem that I often propose: I drive the customer's car for personal reasons until it's fixed, so this can be quite a long time. My time driving to work or leisure does not need to be paid, since I would be driving anyway, just in another car. But once it acts up, I will have my scanner and scope ready and the clock starts.

[@ETAI106]

I dont know how much Texa company is known in the US, But they got the Automechanic 2009 Award for bringing the OBD LOG. Check on you tube... It fits Marin, off highway, trucks...

[@TheGb50]

I agree with you about fix they even give people price on how much it would cost,and that really gets me mad because how would they know that

[@ScannerDanner]

Such bulls--t. These companies are horrible and make the problems worse

[@SchrodingersBox]

Regarding the discussion on charge for diagnostics- I think it goes both ways. Absolutely without question a diagnostic charge is legitimate and in cases of lengthy diags like tracing an electrical short that can take hours- every hour is justified since the whole repair is always going to be 95% diag and 5% actual repair which will almost always be no parts. But also there has to be a penalty to the shop or tech for incorrect diagnosis and unnecessary parts- something I seldom see happen. When a customer goes to the shop, they are the hired experts. The customer is paying for them to be accurate and precise. Otherwise the customer is stuck with the bill for a wrong diagnosis and unnecessary parts and if the shop isn’t held accountable- well why even diagnose at all then? The biggest issue I think that is unfair to a shop is when what I call “revealed” codes come as result of an accurate diagnosis and repair. For example- the tech accurately diagnoses a dead O2 sensor as a cause for P0141 code. Well now that the O2 sensor is replaced- the catalyst monitor can function again- so 6 days later the car comes back with a MIL but now it’s for a p0420- something that clearly existed the first time but there is no way it could have been known. That’s a hard sell to a customer but it is a legitimate second repair and in fact legitimate second diagnostic but good luck validating that to most customers. The truck is communication. Documenting and explaining to the customer the current issues, the codes, the diagnostic strategy and the repairs and then if a revealed issue comes along, hopefully they understand this is not a failure but a whole different issue.

[@ScannerDanner]

It's unfortunate buddy, but in my experience, 9 out of 10 techs cannot properly troubleshoot electrical and electronic issues and are doing nothing more than the parts stores are doing for free (reading codes and changing a part) smh Doing my best, one tech at a time, to change this!

[@carolinem.9800]

so here's an example: my chevy express lost the reverse light, license plate and high marker lamps and wouldn't pass inspection w/o them . the chevy dealer proposed tearing out the whole interior of this conversion van to "expose the wiring out of the main fuse box " (inside on driver side)all the way to the rear lamp assemblies' to ID 'where the bad wiring connection might be.' NO , thanks ! I bought a Fluke 320 $300 w ac dc clamp on amp capability, used it to compare current in wires to each passenger side tail light assembly, where all lamps were working, (with say 5 amps 12.5 v per lamp. ) but amp flow in the driver side running light wire (which also fed license plate/ markers) was only 1.4 amps getting thru, not enough to light the bulb tho voltage was good + 12.5. RX1 was temporary jumper from passenger side good running lamp to driver side to pass inspection, then: RX2 was check good current flow on on wires into taillight assemblies from inside connection, then replace BOTH lamp assemblies . my total time: 6 hours.

[@kaikendall3]

Intermittent random codes are almost always grounds, especially in your area, with salted roads. On things like this, on my own cars, is to simply add ground straps up the ling-yang. It's certainly not going to hurt anything. Edit: saw it wasn't the mystery intermittent issue you were told, never mind.