Schiff vs. Henwood on Economic Crisis

Free market guru Peter Schiff debates Doug Henwood of Left Business Observer on causes and solutions.

[@WhisperingChocoTaco]

It seemed like Henwood and the host were on the same side. Schiff was interrupted by both Henwood and the host, but was told not to interrupt himself. Very odd debate.

[@pferrer8246]

+WhisperingChocoTaco That's what happens when you're invited to debate on a leftist show. There's no true impartiality.

[@Monopolist91]

Peter Schiff is music to my ears

[@Doug8521]

I can't believe there are people like Henwood out there

[@cr1t1cal]

"prices falling is what created the great depression" This guy.....Doesn't know the first thing about economics, but is speaking as if he does...He doesn't know a thing about the great depression..

[@hithereman4198]

***** There are many reasons for the Great Depression: Black Tuesday, Income/Wealth inequality, The Dust Bowl of the Mid-West, Underconsumption, commodity prices, dramatic drops in demand and credit, and disruption of trade, ultimately resulting in widespread unemployment and hence poverty. Prices falling specifically in agriculture was a major reason, but not the only one.

[@Kniteknite23A]

+Hithere Man Hoover + Roosevelt =)

[@karlmarxthebolshevikrabbi2536]

+Friedbard Von Mises As far as I know, Austrians are the ones who don't understand the Great Depression. The fact that both prices and wages were in free fall from 1930 to 1933 made the burden of private debt overwhelming to businesses and consumers. New Deal actually reversed that trend and the recovery began both in terms of economic output and employment.

[@cr1t1cal]

Finnish Anarchist because low prices are a bad thing... And if you're so enlightened on the economics behind the depression, why didn't the same thing happen during the depression of the 20's? Also, the new deal only made the depression longer, intrusions in the market are not fixed by more intrusion into the market, as my case for the depression of the 20's showed... We had no new deal, no new government programs or laws, and the depression was over so quick it isn't even written in history books... But please, you made a claim, now prove it... How exactly did the new deal reverse the depression and begin it's recovery? Because it was already recovering before the new deal, correlation does not = causation.

[@karlmarxthebolshevikrabbi2536]

***** Unexpected deflation can certainly be a bad thing, because it leads to heavier debt burden. "And if you're so enlightened on the economics behind the depression, why didn't the same thing happen during the depression of the 20's?" The recession of the early 1920s was very different compared the Great Depression: there wasn't a massive private debt burden and stock market bubble to begin with, and it seems to have been a post-war adjustment. Also, contrary to the 1930s, it was a result of a reduction in government spending. There had also been severe and long depressions in the relatively unregulated environment of the 19th century as well like the depression of the 1890s. "How exactly did the new deal reverse the depression and begin it's recovery?" For example, increased government spending provided income for the private sector (government's deficit=private sector's surplus), National Recovery Act combined with higher wages put an end to deflationary spiral, job programs helped the unemployed, and the abolition of gold standard lead to a devalution of the dollar which helped exporters. The results were pretty clear: unemployment rate came from 25% to 9% from 1933 to 1937 (before FDR's unnecessary and harmful budget balancing), and average annual growth rate of real per capita GDP was over 5% (which is a record high historically) from 1933 to 1940.

[@teej05]

Does anyone else notice how the video cuts Peter off multiple times throughout the argument? Too much logic for you "The'Real'News"?

[@macioluko9484]

Yes. Good observation Travis. Logic and reason are foreign to the Keynes approach. Borrow and spend is all they know. What about the borrower? Do they get repaid? Or just get paid back with their own money, Madoff style?

[@mbenzesq]

Peter Schiff is a goshdarn Freedom Fighter. I could listen to him all day!

[@Beastius24]

Even Henwood had to admit, that wages have not gone up in real terms, despite excessive programmes etc. Has it ever occured to ANY socialist, that Switzerland for example has a flat tax rate, less regulation yet is one of the wealthiest economies in the world? If I am unemployed I would demand government to help job creation by getting the hell out of the way! Why do you think Spain and Italy is in a mess like that? How about the labour tax? OMG!

[@novaff13]

One thing I know for sure. Schiff was right about the unemployment arguement.

[@TheBumper84]

henwood's whole argument is just tax and spend.

[@MatthewJohnHayden]

Yeah, it's fiscal Keynesianism as opposed to the more prevalent monetary Keynesianism we usually enjoy.

[@spencerantoniomarlen-starr3069]

I am not saying that this necessarily makes his arguments invalid but I just want to point out that Doug Henwood got his degree in english and has worked his career in journalism while Peter Schiff got his degree in Finance and has worked his career in the private finance market so I think he has a little but more credibility.

[@bigbri44]

"Do you employ anybody....?"

[@crnogoracz]

Great debate!! Awesome job Real News for getting these guys. And definitely we need to see more of this.

[@Christian_Prepper]

MY GODDD! I wish they'd let Peter finish at least one thought JUST ONCE!!!

[@Sturmpionier03]

I am very surprized to see Peter Schiff here

[@diogenes9295]

These people that Peter takes on are just monumentally stupid. In a free market these people would be serving burgers if that. What amazes me is how and why Peter bothers to do this.

[@string22]

Nice to see the editing out of Peter's comments... cheers

[@Leofus1986]

17:10 owned "Are you investing any money in Chinese companies?"

[@samknobeloch503]

"Government claims of productivity have risen" 👍👍👍

[@breetak2]

Does Henwood have a hollow skull? The guys brain processing power couldn't power a light bulb.

[@repoocmailliw]

The host lets the left winger speak. Then when Peter starts to make a point he tries arguing the little things.

[@Kniteknite23A]

"You can't wait to see the caboose to realize that the train is coming" =)

[@slhines7]

Best Real News posting EVER for having a Peter Schiff debate with a Keynsian. Schiff was and is RIGHT! I entirely agree with Schiff and Ron Paul and think that the USD will not continue to be the world reserve currency and the USD will eventually collapse at the rate things are going. I support Austrian economics, which Schiff basically speaks of.

[@anaselhaouat]

Good to see all those economics graduates commenting here

[@trumpsahead]

I still am so amazed when I hear Keynesians like Henwood speak about economics from a totally different reality. This is an old video I viewed as a treat, and it is that to hear the great Peter Schiff in action. Funny, you don't hear as loud a bark from the Keynesians these days, recall the invincible Greenspan who after stepping down finally admitted "the formula for his economic model" was wrong. Ha, he should be in jail.

[@bgilbertson091978]

Slave labor in China is a myth. Every job that leave the US and goes to China creates another middle class Chinese family. This is about competition. Chinese people are simply harder working and more competitive. If two American laborers are paid $25/hour to do a job that three $17/hour Chinese laborers will do, the Chinese laborers enjoy prosperity and the company can produce 50% more at the same cost. The problem is that Americans have amassed more debt than they can pay on competitive wages.

[@thebrocialist8300]

Cashstock Moneybags Chinese workers don't make $17 an hour. The Chinese middle class earns below poverty incomes in the West. A race to the bottom is what dictates international labor competition; nothing more.

[@UDPride]

This Doug guy is taking a knife to a gun fight against Peter. It truly is amazing that we have adults like Doug walking around in this country with their heads buried in the sand, unable to see what is patently obvious to anyone with a 3rd grade education. How many people here fix their personal home budget imbalances by going out and actually spending more money? Its maniacal.

[@78g476]

This debate was fascinating

[@patrickt873]

Peter Schiff is right

[@paveljeludovsky]

The leftist is AWESOME!!! During the first 5 minutes he explains EVERYTHING.

[@Stallkyr]

OK, let me see if I got this right: Schiff correctly predicted the crisis of 2008 back in 2006 and 2007 when every other single economist laughed him out of the room, and now these two guys are arguing with him and mocking his predictions now. Really smart.

[@Necr0forte]

I wish the obviously biased mediator hadn't cut off Schiff's last point. "Your employing no one and you're trying to talk to me about-"

[@eggory]

You can't rob someone of something he didn't already own. Whether you can rob someone of a previously unclaimed piece of nature is a slightly more complex issue, but you clearly can not rob someone of something which did not exist before you created it. Yet that is the kind of "robbery" for which capitalism is so crticized.

[@vindician]

@Bellantoni JDRockefeller, Vanderbilt, Hill and Dow were not subsidized by the govt. They increased the standard of living of all Americans by providing them with cheap and high quality goods and services. R made kerosene available to the public, and developed over 300 products from the rest product. Hill made a profit in 1893 when the subsidized RR companies went bust. Dow slashed the price of bromine. Private entrepreneurs become successful because they serve the public. These men were heroes.

[@wildgift2]

Henwood should have demolished Schiff at 16:30. The main difference between investing and government spending is that investors end up owning more at the end of the transaction. Government spending reduces the amount that the wealthy own.

[@Attritive]

His argument is that the US is less economically free than many European countries and China. I believe the Freedom Index also takes this into account.

[@manavbhatt4838]

What is Doug Henwood on?

[@ivanhenwood1072]

Manav Bhatt a chair

[@MrLogical34]

Peter has been spot on!! Who cares what other trolls say...being right wins above all the comments made..

[@mu5icaddict2]

I like Peter Schiff alot, but Henwood is right on the point that productivity has gone up and wages have not. Schiff's argument is that if productivity was strong we would not be running such a massive trade deficit. In a rational world this would be true, but the problem is America consumes so much that even though we produce quite a bit, the production is overshadowed by such viscous consumption.

[@Setzer]

I think that Schiff is right about the government being largely responsible for the economic mess we're in. On the other hand I think that Henwood is right that we need some fiscal stimulus and investment in infrastructure. It's annoying that the second you say we need a stimulus you're expected to defend every thing the government spends money on. If we had used the money we borrowed from China to invest in infrastructure instead of housing we wouldn't be in a recession.

[@brianhayek2853]

Deregulation of derivatives markets wouldn't matter if the federal reserve wasn't injecting infinite credit into the economy to cause the earthquakes of the business cycle. You may have good intentions but ur completely wrong.

[@vindician]

@regelemihai Liquidation means writing down debt. The term for onvertibility to money is "liquid". The money created through credit expansion is circulated through loans, e.g. mortgages. These loans were then listed as "assets" on the banks' balance sheet, but they were in fact just created out of nothing. When people lost their ability to repay their loans, these "assets" started to evaporate, thus canceling out the money created through the loans, resulting in huge losses for the banks.

[@regelemihai]

@vindician "The loans of the banks started to evaporate because the value of the collateral (the houses) started to go down. " That's my question; why did it so suddenly start to go down? I had initially thought because the banks weren't receiving the payments on the mortgages. But that can't be it since a typical mortgage loan is taken for a 30 years.

[@QuatFax]

@Betty5150 But the point is, the US didn't have a laissez-faire economy in 1920. Government played a very active role in the economy throughout United States history. Government may have been stronger at some points than at others, but we never came close to laissez-faire. Singapore and Hong Kong are not free markets. Both governments have near-monopolies on land sales, grant many welfare-state programs (such as universal healthcare), and do special favours for businesses.

[@regelemihai]

" Social Security (broke); " I recently heard Anthony Weiner saying that Social Security has a major surplus, not that it's broke.

[@Onieracraft]

He doesn't have to show how he personally profited from it, he was ON TELEVISION describing exactly what was going to happen (and when) years before it happened.

[@gjc2891]

Why does everybody always interrupt Peter?

[@bgilbertson091978]

I would argue that the bankruptcy of the United States happened in 1970. Monetizing debt through inflation is just another method of default. The real question is when will our creditors stop accepting what is fundamentally counterfeit currency?

[@bjarnet3]

0% interest rates is pain for savers,, less buyers is pain for business owners... Only wall street,, and those who got government stimulus and subsidizes is gaining wealth from this corrupt system.

[@jpollard117]

Agree, corporate law is somewhat out of control and it partners with government to make it unstoppable.

[@vindician]

@Bellantoni Slavery ended peacefully in every country save the US. Child labor was abolished thanks to economic development. And as you may have noticed, civil disobedience is not exclusive to democracies. Democracy by itself did not abolish slavery, child labor or the draft. The freedom of speech has nothing to with democracy, it is part of every individual's inalienable right to private property.

[@Diosukekun]

@LouieArrighi i'm not questioning if he was right with that statement, i just think it'd be enlightening to take a look at the statistics in question myself

[@Jekyll_Island_Creatures]

@BrockTee Exactly, or read Economics In One Lesson

[@ScarletWitchJakarta]

Just because most prices haven't gone up doesn't mean there hasn't been massive inflation. After the 2008 financial collapse, there should of been a massive deflation because of a massive credit drop. But the Fed prevented that deflation by printing trillions of dollars to prevent that.

[@Bellantoni]

@vindician No, the british model was that we lower tariffs and not restrict their investments and allow them access to vital resource bases here in america. That's why he was sent to negotiate with them at Ghent and then again in London and both times told them to stay out of America. That's why the North called the south "the british system".

[@Cubanboxxerr]

I love you Hayek, you the man

[@fbportfolio]

Schiff's obnoxious references to his business ("Do you employ people?") ignore the fact that he only employs 125 people. He doesn't represent the driving, shaping forces in America's economy. His references to the emails he gets (ever hear of self-selection?) are purely anecdotal and fly in the face of hard statistics and overarching historical trends. When Henwood cites actually useful statistics (from the BLS), Schiff just dismisses them. Between dogma and anecdotes, he doesn't have much.

[@ruddo1970]

I think he realised that Henwood was outgunned. Without his help this debate may never have made it 30 mins. You know that ol saying... 'A man with experience is never at the mercy of the man with an opinion' Shiff has the experience!

[@vindician]

@Bellantoni The fugitive slave clause was in the Constitution. Slavery was upheld by states all over the world for millenia prior its abolition. How is slavery a violation of property rights? Hmm? Could it perhaps be a violation of your right to your body and labor?!

[@elboertjie]

Why was the debate at 14:34 edited out? I wanted to hear the rest of the argument of falling prices right at that moment. Did they get overheated perhaps?

[@vindician]

@Bellantoni Except that it was the state that upheld slavery for thousands of years prior to slavery being abolished. Not to mention that abolitionist movements were private initiatives. You are right that rights need to be fought for, and no single institution poses a larger threat to our rights than the state. The US is an ample example of that, with the Patriot Act and myriad of police agencies it has. You can quit whenever you want to.

[@elieakaMrextreme]

G-d Bless Peter Schiff let him keep all his money he earned it

[@guitardds]

We just need to divide America. Instead of debating, let the left and right go their seperate ways. And god knows, let me live on the conservative side.

[@QuatFax]

Schiff talks a lot about how the "free" market will prevent these problems. Does he actually have an example of a laissez-faire economy to demonstrate this? Can he name an economy that doesn't have massive government interference? I certainly can't.

[@TheWBAH]

According to Peter if it weren't for unemployment benefits there wouldn't be any unemployment. My two sons graduated two years ago with electrical engineering degrees and have no jobs.

[@vindician]

@LevelheadedFitness Look at all commodities, everything from agricultutre to precious metals. They're making all time highs every day. The reason that the CPI doesn't sky rocket is that they modify it, which means they take out everything that goes up. The money supply has doubled several times over. The Fed and the banks are sitting on huge reserves. What do you think will happen when that money starts circulating? Can you even compute such a scenario?

[@QuatFax]

@DaveDoggOwns I'm not necessarily arguing that the communes won't form a common organization that might be called a "cartel." What I'm arguing is that the power would lie through council democracy, not meetings of shareholders. Defence would be in the hands of the people through direct democracy, and thus it would still be an anarchy.

[@mu5icaddict2]

@serialkiller1990 I was actually talking more about the productivity side of the statement, but your point is a good one. Do you have a source for that 50% number?

[@vindician]

@Bellantoni The meltdown had many causes, but central bank manipulation of the interest rate was the single most significant. The CB also created the moral hazard which made banks take greater risks, in collusion with govt. entities like Freddie and Fannie. The only way the state can "reverse" this is to repeal all the regulations that protect the banks, abolish the CB and introduce sound money. But tell me, when did the state save us in the past? This will be a hoot, I warrant!

[@march1883production]

I didn't say finance and economics aren't related. I said that finance and economics are not the same thing, and a background in finance does not necessarily mean you're qualified to speak on economic matters. I fail to see how pointing out that Henwood's analysis is cited favorably in journals such as Barrons, contradicts either of those two statements. Perhaps you can point out when I said finance and economics aren't related, or that financial guys can't ever speak on economic matters?

[@TheFishMonger89]

How can that increased productivity be turned into higher wages when companies have to spend ever increasing amounts on complying with employment regulations? Healthcare costs have been sky rocketing as well which means that more of an employees compensation package consists of health insurance instead of wages.

[@bgilbertson091978]

It's Democrats who deregulate financial institutions. They do this to appear as "moderate" and "business friendly." Usually it's the Federal Reserve Chairman or Treasury Secretary who's actually behind it all. (Greenspan pushed Clinton to deregulate investment firms, creating the derivatives bubble.) The biggest deregulation in banking history was done by FDR. He created limited liability, where taxpayers pony up for banking failures. Before the New Deal, bankers were responsible for deposits.

[@danL1011]

This was a poorly moderated 'debate'. Henwood just rambles and Schiff never really gets to counter even though he was prepared to on many occasions. At one point the moderator cuts off Schiff and changes topics just as Schiff starts his counter-argument. What ever happened to interviewers/moderators who could remain neutral?

[@march1883production]

Finance and economics are not the same thing, so I fail to see how Schiff's finance background makes him qualified to speak on economic matters. While it's true that Henwood's educational background is in journalism and english, his analysis is cited in enough credible financial journals that he should be taken reasonable seriously on these matters. They don't cite Doug in Barrons for his analysis of english and journalism.

[@wildgift2]

@YukonBloamie - I didn't say it was the government's goal to protect investor equity. It's to contain the deflation as much as possible to real estate. Let RE take the lumps. If deflation is allowed to spread into different markets, it causes economic contraction, even if the fundamentals are sound. It's like the inverse of a market bubble that inflates prices despite stable fundamentals that warrant no rise in prices.

[@DaHonestAbe]

I think I see what Schiff is saying now. I was wondering how the top marginal tax rates could be so high decades ago but we had a better economy. But there were deductions available then that aren't available now. Very interesting point by Schiff.

[@vindician]

@Bellantoni So the draft ended in 1971 in the US. It has been a "democracy" since 1789. During this time, the democratic US drafted citizens into the Civil War, both World Wars and the Vietnam war. All in all, several million Americans were drafted by the democratic US. And no, a monarchy is NOT a private institution. Can you read at all? And do you deny that the US is a democracy? If you don't, then my assertion is amply demonstrated.

[@Unkn0wnGuy]

@wildgift2 And it's that thinking that caused the economic crash and currently making it worse. Thanks for coming out.

[@78g476]

fascinating debate. both of them argued very well. i will donate $5. just hope the govt. doesn't tax your donations.

[@angrybird7324]

I like most of what Schiff says, except the part where he thinks we would be better if we were ultra cheap labor. This guy wouldnt work for 20$ an hour but he think we should work for 2$ an hour for the good of big corporations. This guy was almost genius, but in fact is gone crazy.

[@vindician]

@Bellantoni Actually, glass-stegall was not repealed. Only the provision stating that investment banks and commercial banks can't be owned by the same company was repealed. Nothing regarding the activities of either type of bank was changed. You also seem to forget banks are the most state protected corporations of all, and that they all rely on the central bank. This has nothing to do with free markets, and everything to do with the very system Hamilton and Clay advocated. You struck out.

[@QuatFax]

@DaveDoggOwns The difference is that in a defence industry, unlike in most industries, standardization has to be voluntary for all involved. If GM and Chrysler try to standardize their cars, Ford can follow suit, whether GM and Chrysler like it or not. But if PDF A and PDF B decide not to arbitrate with PDF C, there is nothing that C can do about it. It will go out of business.

[@StatelessRich]

@QuatFax Government is not required for the protection of private property; businesses can protect property in a stateless society. The contradiction lies with the government, as governments necessarily violate property rights through taxation.

[@100SCN]

Wow, how often do you see Peter Schiff nervous (27:00)? I like Peter Schiff--he's opened my eyes and taught me a lot. However, he is also a salesman. He is selling the economic distress of the USA and the prosperity to be had in China. What he doesn't tell you is that China has problems of its own and that Singapore (where he recently opened a branch of his firm) is practically a police state. Anyway, I'm glad to see him in a debate where he is not simply dominating.

[@Bellantoni]

@vindician "It cannot be very difficult to determine who have been the contrivers of this whole mercantile system; not the consumers, we may believe, whose interest has been entirely neglected; but the producers, whose interest has been so carefully attended to; and among this latter class our merchants and manufacturers have been by far the principal architects"

[@BroodjeEend]

Yea, except he predicted it very accurately. Not with some vague prophecy. His losses during the crisis were due to bad business decisions, which has nothing to do with his economic analyses. His arguments make perfect sense and he can speak from experience.

[@Iamfatbrain]

-"Would you be ok to tax that back?". How the hell do you tax back money made in a scam (which, like Shiff said, was made possible by the government)? Impose retroactive taxes!? People who get wealthy from doing "legitimate" business, post-crash, need to suffer for the actions by those who ran the scam/profited from it?

[@Surrealaser]

Well it's important to keep in mind that most of the 'socialist' countries aren't freer economically (those five I'd listed are exceptions), though almost all are freer and more democratic politically. Public/universal medicare is a prime example of where they are more socialist than the States. They also all have higher taxes, in some cases substantially higher effective taxes, more robust, better funded public school systems and generally higher and more prolific social benefits.

[@Bellantoni]

@vindician The RRs helped build nearly all western state capitals. It allowed people and capital/goods to migrate or travel throughout the nation and was for decades the only means of doing so. This technology enhanced the dexterity of the nation enormously- I don't see the inefficiency. It was the South that waged a murderous war on Mexico, enforced slavery, made nonsense of northern acts of compromise, seceded, and then attacked. How did this turn into a debate about the Civil War?

[@Onieracraft]

And then tell me how you could be a client with Schiff and NOT notice what he was saying on every t.v. and radio show that would let him on. What did his clients just dismiss him as a schizophrenic and ignore everything he was saying in public while continuing to invest with him? Or is it more logical to assume that he was telling them the same thing he was saying in public.

[@regelemihai]

"When people lost their ability to repay their loans, these "assets" started to evaporate." I'm sorry for being a nag, but I'm still trying to understand the mechanics behind this. Why did the bust occur so suddenly? I mean, the banks knew these people couldn't pay the loans back so why the sharp decline?

[@kh7955]

Every time I see the words "Left" and Business" together I can't help but to gag

[@OnceUponASpace]

As an outsider on the whole left-right debate in politics, (which I believe to be political theatre, a form of Kabuki to distract us from the real issues of cartel monetarism and big state versus small state), I often find myself wondering which is more odious - the hypocrisy of the left or the bigotry of the right? I've now reached the conclusion that the hypocrisy is somewhat worse, because at least the bigotry is sincere.

[@QuatFax]

@bjarnet3 1) Government can influence the economy without having high taxes. Governments can get their revenues from other means (such as by owning land or businesses). And they can regulate the economy, which distorts the market a lot without actually requiring much taxation or spending. 2) The FEDERAL income tax was establish after 1913. States and local governments can distort the market too, and did.

[@Bellantoni]

@vindician The removal of the glass-steagall act, making mergers and acquisitions not only easier but promoted by the state, no restrictions on the amount of speculation of a bank, no oversight of financial instruments like CDOs and the like, and stocking a central bank of insiders to specifically ignore all these things caused an 8 trillion dollar housing bubble and the recession were all in now.

[@vindician]

@LevelheadedFitness He doesn't think you should tax anyone very much. He also points out that the pays almost all the taxes. Taxing in general is not productive, its much better to let people keep what they earn and cut SPENDING. Why is this so hard to grasp? Schiff said that AMERICANS have not become more productive. US firms produce more because they have OUTSOURCED production. He explains this very thoroughly, but I guess its difficult to hear reason through all the AMERICA IS GREAT rants...

[@rickhayes-oh2zm]

They don't just take half off the rich they take half off the middle and poor.

[@Darmoth12]

Holy shit, I can get 300$ a weeks from unemployment? Thats fucking 1200$ a month. Thats way more than I live on.

[@QuatFax]

@ATL45 But isn't that the point? Domestic aggregate demand is low, meaning that the businesses that sustained themselves by selling to American consumers can no longer make a profit. Americans were buying all these products until the credit crunch, when they became unable to afford any more.

[@KurtP00]

What I always find hilarious in debates like this is that Peter Schiff is the only person who produces a damn thing. You have three people in the room. One working to produce something and 2 others standing around bitching about how he should produce it and how the fruit of the labor will be divided once its made.

[@Bellantoni]

@vindician In the 50's and 60's there was low unemployment, people could fathers could work and mothers could stay at home if they wanted, prices for things were much cheaper, there were no economic crises and sustained growth and development of industries and so forth. Then banking regulations and capital regulations, to keep them in the country were destroyed and all hell broke loose.