I Still Don’t Know What the “Way of Water” is… (Fixing Avatar 2)

#Writing
Here are 5 ways of fixing Avatar 2. Spider and Quaritch need major upgrades in order to measure up to the complexity 3 more movies will demand. Jake Sully and Neytiri learn a lot this movie, but it’s all over the place. There’s no cohesion, nothing is integrated with each other. The “Way of Water” should be a clear theme that determines the success and failure of the Sully family, the life and death of Lo’ak and Neteyam, and the survival of the Metkayina people. If this movie becomes centered around fluidity and adaptability as a lesson to learn from water, all the plot and character arcs line up perfectly. Jake and Neytiri must learn from Kiri and Lo’ak that if they don’t adapt, they’ll suffer losses like Neteyam. Quaritch triumphs by adapting to the new circumstance of discovering this tool in the form of his son, and Spider goes too far with his fluidity, losing himself and leaving the Na’vi way.
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0:00 - fix #1 (quaritch)
2:05 - fix #2 (spider)
3:39 - fix #3 (spider)
8:23 - fix #4 (what is the way of water?)
12:18 - fix #5 (sully kids)
14:39 - fix #6 (bonus)

[@Zephirite.]

I was confused by the secondary theme “Sullys stick together,” when the only time Jake talked to his kids was to scold them. And Netiri just sat and chopped food until it was time to fight. Even the kids were on isolated adventures.

[@bebopobama4686]

Did you just forget the scenes where he fishes with Neteyam, or when he's mourning with his family?

[@Zephirite.]

@@bebopobama4686 those were sweet, but they were very isolated. A three hour movie, and Sully’s only with his family when they need him? If it was anything other than necessity that brought them together (not just Jake, but the kids and Netiri, too), that theme would’ve felt more natural.

[@urbent3147]

Na you just ignored all the other bits

[@kinka9883]

Just because one of your kids is hard-headed & you need to scold them sometimes, doesn't mean you don't stick together? When his sons fought those other kids & he told his youngest to apologize, he praised his oldest a little when he said the others looked worse. And Neytiri also defended the youngest son in the beginning of the movie. Also, the kids were always going back for eachother near the climax of the movie. The brothers and sisters were almost always paired up if they werent all together & the brothers didnt hesitate to stand up for their sister even when outnumbered.

[@Zephirite.]

@@urbent3147 alright, if you say so.

[@nutscream]

I'v been quite forigiving with Avatar, but mainly because I want to enjoy how pretty it is without my brain bitching about the writing. It's unbelievable that they cant pay a few good script doctors with that much money....

[@LuisSierra42]

The movies are just demos for new tech

[@Atitkos]

All that money went to visuals.

[@codeab99]

"Script doctors." Because we don't need script writers for this one, we need "script doctors". XD

[@confusedturtle183]

@@LuisSierra42 love this take

[@subhajit1128]

What's your problem with the script, what more do you want?

[@AmTrFilms]

You could have multiple Quaritch's at once too, one is presumed dead, so they download him into a body again, but the other Quaritch is still alive and becoming good with the help of his son.

[@schnee1]

YES, i also want this to happen! (although it probably wont..)

[@DMrKunst2]

Oh that's cool

[@melodybaoin1425]

@@trekadouble757 ( Edited on 09/01/13. Thank you so much for the likes ^^. I had to add some details because I browse through the comics and oh boy, there is a lot of wasted potential) they can set up this conflict for the sequel. Wherein the next movie will have two conflicts between father's and sons. Jake will have a strained relationship with Lo'ak because of grief over the death of his eldest son; which is great because Jake himself also lost a brother and we could learn more about him by processing the grief with Lo'ak. Tom Sully ( Jakes twin brother) is one of the memories he connects to his previous human life. Having him reconnect to his human past while dealing with the conflicts of his Na'vi self will bring a crisis that can bring much needed depth to his character. He can have dreams of his brother, bringing up his subconscious guilt that probably his choice in becoming a Na'vi only end up hurting innocents and his loved ones. On the other hand, Quardritch will try to become a better person in his Na'vi form, adapting to their customs and lifestyle while also providing guidance and becoming a better parent figure for Miles.Which is why when he saw a clone of his former self, he will have an epiphany on what kind of person he has become. The theme of the first Avatar is connection with nature; why not put the theme of connection towards others, regardless if you are from different planets or species.

[@ReblazeGaming]

@@trekadouble757 It's not that hard, after Quaritch was trapped on the sinking ship, just let him end up somewhere presumed dead. This Quaritch doesn't go back to the RDA, at least not right away. Then the next movie they make a new Quaritch which is the evil one.

[@JinKee]

very terminator

[@yukakim4606]

The feeling I got from the whole movie was "damn they gave us so much and yet somehow they used NOTHING" and in this video you kinda pieced together what I couldn't on my own lol

[@airarinuzu1532]

True, when I watch the movie I feels satisfied but still feeling like there is something that can be improved but I cannot put it into words. This video solve that somethinh 😌😂

[@moondom]

Really like your ideas about Spider, I was so baffled by him in the theater. I also felt there were just too many kids and the story was trying to do to many things (while simultaneously not actually doing any of them), so combining two of them into one character would be a great way to streamline.

[@jhinjhin00_1]

I didnt understand what does combining 2 of them exactly mean??

[@moondom]

@@jhinjhin00_1 because they each have a similar story, the two characters could be one character instead, with a mix of their personality traits. It would just be taking one of them out and altering the other a little.

[@jhinjhin00_1]

@@moondom ohh

[@darthvader9834]

I actually have do disagree! In my opinion it might have been interesting but nevertheless quite none sense in the context of the Avatar- Universe. It doesn’t seem that realistic to offer a child, who already acquired the animal- Na’avi- instincts such as the “hatred- shout”, an Avatar which first of all would be incredibly expensive and tbh unuseful (?) for the humans. And secondly Spider wouldn’t agree to a bargain with the destroying enemies. Since birth mankind is him a stranger. Thus I believe the core “problem” (I actually really appreciated the movie and would count him to one of the best of all time- d rly like to start a discussion about Avatar and it’s intention, purpose and meaning if u want to-> precious things, when well used, that appear to be rare in modern cinema) is that Spider saves his “father” (his Avatar) after he was threatened by his Na’avi mother with a knife but simply returns to his Na’avi family. Any ambiguity is gone at this point. The necessary conflict is gone as soon as Spider refuses to join the general. By saving the general, Spider actually betrayed Sully’s (who spider regards as his dad) intentions to end their chapter once and for all. Why is he decisively ready to go home to the Na’avi at all? Might be a prepared conflict for future movies. That’s the only true thing that should bother us when it comes to the character “Spider”. Eventually u don’t like him right from the start and had to get to know him better. Sometimes characters and special or strange Figures need that time of “introduction” so that the audience can get warm with their different way of living or being. And mostly that’s ok. E.g. Ashoka from “Star Wars the clone wars” who annoyed many people in the beginning and fast developed to a fan- favor. Often times, in those cases, the potential to result with a “beloved character” is way higher because strange and different figures are usually more complex and way more interesting… I’d really recommend Avatar the way of water to anybody who hasn’t seen it so far. The story is neither boring nor unenganging (is that an actual word?). In case the opposite is true. Fx and 3D impress on an even further level but in my view the story is a perfect juxtaposition of mankind’s ways and nature, destruction and life, fighting and pacifism. The meaning and worth of life is transported via this mesmerising spectacle (made to be seen in cinemas)!

[@mathies3598]

@@moondom or just Kiri and give her tge outcast whale connection arc. I think she was a much more compelling character than Lo'ak so i see no need to combine necessarily. Still dont understand why he just... said it was his idea to go out hunting when the kids of the metakayan left him for dead??

[@Zephirite.]

Ironic that Jake was named Mok Turok (chief) of the forest people, but abandoned them to flee with his family. Quaritch said he knew they were hiding in the mountains, yet never attacked and interrogated them. So Jake’s ‘development’ of standing and fighting was lost on the people he abandoned.

[@mathies3598]

I think you misunderstand. Let me simplify this for you, it actually makes sense. 1. The humans are after Jake Sully, not the forest people as a whole. As you said, he is Toruk Makto, they listen to him. If you attack the whole tribe head on, they will fight back hard, and drive you out. We saw in the first movie. They hunt Jake because you you take him down the rest will follow. They target his children cuz that's the only way to draw him out. 2. He leaves TO PROTECT the Omaticaya. He had a whole conversation with Neytiri about this, when she said "you cannot ask this of me" that was about leaving. If Jake is the human's target, the only way to keep the rest safe is to go hide where they can't find you. Unfortunately the seizure that caused Norm to have to come down is how they were found

[@Zephirite.]

@@mathies3598 I actually understood that perfectly, but Jake’s intentions aren’t the issue; Quaritch’s *methods* are. Jake never bothered the first island of sea people that Quaritch attacked; he burned their lands and killed one of their mounts, just to draw Jake out. If Quaritch believed he could’ve beaten the rest of the forest people in the mountains, then he would’ve tortured and asked them where Jake went (easier than searching the entire archipelago, since he KNEW Jake stayed with *these* people). Jake staying could’ve lead to the same conclusion; “I’m not running.” Not because he doesn’t want to protect his family, but because he knows running will only pass the danger onto whatever innocents Quaritch tortured to flush him out.

[@musicman24X]

@@mathies3598 There's no need to simplify. The problem is right there in #1. There is *no* good reason for the humans to be after only Sully. They would want to wipe out the insurgency as well as taking its head off. They're not idiots.

[@giganooz]

​@@Zephirite. First off, Quaritch didn't know where in the mountains. They needed Spider to tell them, but Spider gave nothing. Second, Eywa was protecting the mountains. Quaritch might be able to get to the place where all the Na'vi / forest people are eventually, but he couldn't bring any assets to it because the animals would take them down and it would be hard to pilot to that place anyway. Third, without any additional assets, it would be incredibly hard for Quaritch to overpower the forest people in their own base that he is completely unfamiliar to. Fourth, if Quaritch beating the forest people wasn't unlikely enough. Well, after they dropped from their helicopter, the animals probably heard that and so they showed up to check. Quaritch and his crew didn't seem hostile to the animals, so the animals didn't fight them. But if they tried to attack the forest people, that could change in a heartbeat and Eywa might send the whole damn rest of the forest after them. And then there's the fifth point, which is that if he got the forest people hostage somehow, he's still gotta be sure that Jake will show up and that when he does, he doesn't come with an army and a plan capable of taking Quaritch out. The stakes are massive, and so the possible gains are simply not worth it. It should be pretty clear after some consideration.

[@Zephirite.]

@@dianashepherd3241 I agree that the Na’Vi usurpers would’ve made more sense. Perhaps Quaritch could’ve teamed with them later (if the writers REALLY needed him back). It was weird that Jake was accepted as leader so easily (despite being unfamiliar with the Na’Vi’s customs). Seems odd that it wasn’t Neytiri, since she or the tribal elder lady were the closest to king, and should presumably be next in line. Why would the writers bend over backwards to give Jake leadership, only for it to be the first thing they remove for the next movie?

[@vismaykedilaya1318]

i feel like the "earth is dying" thing seems like a far better motivation than unobtainium or this new Amrita thing, i think it would flesh out the humans a bit more, make Spider a bit more conflicted, and maybe Jake too. but here's the thing. a lot of people didn't like Jake for being too simplistic. here's the thing, Jake wasn't the main protagonist in this movie. i think it was Lo'ak, and Lo'ak was, if not a better character, a more relatable character than Jake was.

[@Shinkami_Chuu]

why keep only one motivation? The local government (of BridgeHead City on Pandora) is of the Earth faction that wants to relocate parts of the humans to Pandora to get humans bette life conditions and relieve earth's biosphere, but the big corpos that have the money for that don't care, they only care about their business, so the local govenrment starts exploiting amrita and unobtanium to sell to the corpos so that they can finance their colonisation effort. The "good" humans destroy pandora and kill the tulkun to save humanity. (that may be what's actually going on, but the movie doesn't explains it)

[@fortheloveofcinema]

I like the immortal Quaritch idea. But what if they have their cake and eat it too. Two Quaritches. One gets his redemption. The other is essentially an undying machine. Almost like T2 where they had two terminators, one of which was the previous film’s antagonist. Idk coulda been cool. Hopefully James already thought of that for the sequels considering they still need oppositions.

[@schnee1]

OMG I WAS THINKING THIS TOO

[@AllieBee00]

That’s genius…

[@Dantick09]

He could make an entire army of quaritch and his friends

[@thesexyskywalker3283]

This is so cool and I was thinking this too. Basically, Avatar will become Terminator but with aliens haha

[@pandoorapirat8644]

I think the new clone Quaritsches get bombs in the head in case they turn again. Maybe they make some new monster Quaritsch with Gene technology.... a Cyborg Avatar? And in the end the new Quaritsch maybe sacrifice himself even with a bomb in the head...

[@wingedking.j]

One of the biggest pacing problems in this movie is the kids, I think. Even my mother agreed that the kids were always getting in trouble, always running off and doing things, and I understand that some of it was to further the plot but some of it could've been cut out and helped the runtime. It just felt like too many things were happening. Also absolutely the scene with Spider made no sense whatsoever. His dad's brain was uploaded to the cloud anyway so it wouldn't have mattered whether Spider saved him or not. He practically just saved the body. Though, it begs the question. No new information would be in the pre-set cloud brain. Technically by not letting this version die, he's let it learn, let it keep the new information. It actually increases the danger a bit, which contributes to why it's such a dumb decision.

[@moondom]

This annoyed me about the kids so much by the end. They literally never listened and did what they were told, and it got them into dangerous trouble every single time, and yet they just kept doing it. No growth there at all.

[@silvemkes3161]

@@moondom The only growth was the youngest's disbelief that she had been captured again

[@psython2160]

That could've been seen interesting plot point too. His dad becoming more na'vi then dying multiple times before becoming completely self-realized. Throw in ey-wa reconnecting all of his past na'vi lives, boom now he's a good guy but spider has sold his soul to the humans to have a sense of belonging. The old proverb, the abandoned child will burn down his village to feel it's warmth.

[@rubensoeteman]

It probably sets up the blue villain for a redemption - esque arc, his story parallel Jakesullys one after all

[@b_delta9725]

Thing is, he can't be sure if his dad is ever coming back. Yeah he's in some cloud or whatever, but the dad he knew, the dad that cared of him enough that he abandoned the mission he planned for so long, just to save his life, will be dead and will not know that he was his son. You see your dead dad body laying there and you can save it, instead of waiting for people you don't know to save him, you just take your chance. He made the right choice.

[@cherrycola542]

The Whale, Neytiri and Kiri were the most emotional charged and compelling in the movie & they're my favorite

[@ZY2K73]

Tulkan not a whale

[@redrox3312]

Neytiri is near invisible in this movie lmao

[@mercury9765]

@@redrox3312that’s what makes her so good…

[@Rox7ne]

While yes you´re right on that, I found it annoying bcs we get so much more of an impact from a tulkun´s death than from Jake´s own son. Neteyam´s death had kind of an impact on the characters but as a stand alone, it´s a shame that he was there to just fill a stereotype of the perfect son.. that he´s so perfect and good that he had to die and his death is simply part of an arc so that the brash and impulsive Lo´ak can grow. I loved Neteyam´s character sm bcs I saw myself in him and I would´ve wished he got more than the poor development he got. He could´ve had the same outcome, that was fine by me, but it was done so quickly that I barely felt the same impact of his death (in the moment it happened) in comparison to the tulkuns.

[@purpleomelette6341]

YES YES YES! I agree with all of the above. Especially offering Spider an avatar, my husband and I ranted about how easy and thematic that would have been for days after we saw this film. I could honestly talk about the utterly wasted potential of this beautiful, intricately constructed universe for hours, but I'll summarise a few of my own additional thoughts below (edited, sorry, it was a bit of a mess!) - Tell us what it feels like for someone who is fundamentally anti Na'vi to wake up in a body he not only hates, but that can plug into anything on the planet, allowing him to feel its emotions in his own body. We get nothing about how this impacts Quaritch's perspective and it's bizarre, given how much it impacted Jake, a very similar character, at least in terms of his background - Don't set up an energy crisis on earth with 20 billion lives at stake if humanity loses access to Pandoran resources, if you're not going to spend a single second exploring the narrative from the point of view of those who would die if Pandora were free from human colonisation. This is a fundamental source of great narrative tension - Don't go back on the character development we got in the first film. Neytiri was THE primary agent who propelled the plot of the first film - her choice to spare Jake, her choice to take him to her people, her choice to teach him, her choice to love him were all FUNDAMENTAL to the first film. Remember, at the climax, it isn't Jake's fight with Quaritch that saves Jake and cements his connection to his new life, it's Neytiris love (and her arrow, utterly badass moment IMO). Don't make her 'Mrs Sully' (ugh) and have her standing around for the whole movie either doing what Jake says or just going batshit crazy (which is fine, but I need to know more about what motivates her). Also the one line in this movie that gave me chills was Neytiri saying to Quaritch 'no matter how many times you come back, I will kill you if you try to hurt my family" (paraphrased), please lean into that theme of reincarnation (especially given the title and the whole world brain we come from/return to), it gives us this fascinating new, fundamentally non western perspective on the nature of death itself - do we carry baggage from old lives? Are we fated to repeat our mistakes? Do we have any agency in making our future? - Spider. Through him we have this opportunity to explore the fundamental way Eywa and being able or unable to connect with her would impact a character's personality and world view. How does his family feel about him not being able to plug into the planet and connect with his people, the animals, and their ancestors? I thought this was a beautiful chance to comment on the superficiality of his 'Na'vi'ness, how no matter how much he feels like one of them, he will never be able to experience their connectedness to their home and culture. Maybe this is why Neytiri struggles to love someone in a human body. Maybe the ability to physically connect with someone else is an absolute requirement for empathy on this planet, and from Neytiris perspective this would make Spider a sociopath. That's such an interesting concept to me, and it's not touched on at all - Ditch the concept of family over tribe, exemplified by the whole 'Sully's stick together' thing. It's a very western idea and doesn't mesh with the cultural feel of the Omaticaya and the Na'vi in general. It works against the themes of the first film, and isn't necessary for any of those of the second film to deliver a compelling narrative These are smaller edits, but I think they would tighten up the background world and setting a bit - Tell me why the Na'vi have a warrior culture if they're all pacifists (its a weird vibe I got from the way they interact with each other overall). - Tell me why they kept Grace's body. It's a bit weird that they have her in a tank for no apparent reason - Ditch the voice over, there is no in universe reason to have it, unlike in the first film - Cut the teen drama to free up narrative space - Cut characters who don't move the plot forward (Netayam, Tsireya, Ronal, Tonowari) OR GIVE THEM SOMETHING TO DO. Like in the video, making Netayam represent the inflexible way and maybe have Ronal/Tonowari lead our cast in learning the adaptive way. - Still no blue flute in this film lol The reason I think there's so much wasted narrative potential here is that James Cameron isn't interested in asking his audience questions (which would generate narrative tension and allow us room for thought and discussion), but in providing them with an answer - ie save the trees (avatar 1) and save the whales (avatar 2) and I think that fundamental disconnect between the complexity and richness of the world and that simple message is what makes these films feel weaker than they could be.

[@Zephirite.]

YES excellent points!

[@sedrickalcantara9588]

I have never read a more correct youtube comment in my 10 years on this platform

[@user-ed7et3pb4o]

Brilliant. One q though - blue flutes?

[@purpleomelette6341]

@@user-ed7et3pb4o Omaticaya in Na'vi means 'clan of the blue flute', I find it odd that this piece of world building remains completely irrelevant to the story 6 hours into the franchise :)

[@izabellahancz647]

@@user-ed7et3pb4o the name of the omaticaya clan (Neytiris clan) translates to “blue flute clan”. They are supposed to be a musical clan with a large flute hidden in the centre of home tree, however this isn’t shown in any of the films (likely because it has little plot relevance).

[@jennifersado]

This is absolutely insane, how are all the points you make so spot on and obviously more narratively compelling than what we actually got?!

[@gianlucasalan]

We need a petition for Schnee to become scriptwriter for the next movies

[@rottenmuffin826]

Hindsight is one hell of a tool

[@ipawnyanab]

Because these "fixed" can fix things in this one movie, but this is more than one movie, we are getting 6. Theres a reason for these characters exsisting, even if they didnt do much in this one. Its setting up for the movies to come.

[@mydzy]

​@@ipawnyanab I don't know man.. the marvel movies (no matter what you think of them) manage to set up very long storylines while keeping each movie's plot and character arc somewhat conclusive and 'satisfying'. Here I feel like nothing for resolved and even worse - some themes and aspects of the previous movie got actively retracted. If you need 3 hours to rewrite the first story, setup the next one and not really contribute anything new in the meantime, I feel like you should think this whole thing through again lmao. Like.. if this is what it takes, maybe we don't need more avatar movies?

[@jaroneller1525]

i like how generally, you dont take yourself too seriously in your videos. the small jokes (stakes, running out of Avatar footage and inserting your own while pointing it out, "it's not about the blue, it's about you") really add to the videos. love how much your channel has grown since you started arcane videos, thrilled to see where its going

[@gemturner4709]

Jake Sully himself was the character I had the most problems with, honestly. I understand that they might be trying to give him an arc beyond just this one movie by showing that he's too tough on his kids and that his actions are what ultimately causes the destruction. But he treats his children (and his wife!) like soldiers rather than family members. He puts not one but two tribes at risk by asking them to cover for his own ass rather than finding a more creative solution. And, worst of all, he repeatedly embodies the same violence that his enemies do. But there is no resolution whatsoever in regards to those flaws??? The movie at no point explicitly accepts that he is the cause of everything that happens. He never apologizes and he's never punished. His eldest son dies and he makes an off-handed comment about it being his other son's fault! But it's really HIS fault!! And he never acknowledges or admits that. And ultimately it's so ironic because the movie is trying (I think?) to critique toxic, violent, militaristic masculinity and yet it fails to acknowledge that its hero embodies and glorifies all of those traits to the very end.

[@maryherrera1054]

Yes! Thank you both for putting into words exactly what I thought

[@oliverlarosa8046]

I'd argue that there was a small effort in the conclusion for Jake to own up, with his attempt to sacrifice himself in exchange for the lives of his children. He also attempted to own up to endangering the Metkayina Clan by promising to get out of their hair, even if they did decide to accept Jake and his reamining family in the end. And regarding his attitude, no one in the movie ever reacts to it as if it is admirable. Neytiri literally admonishes him toward the beginning of the movie for running his family like a squad. His approach is meant to seem aggressive and flawed, and, while I think they could have done a better job of resolving those flaws, they certainly didn't fail to acknowledge them.

[@allyli1718]

Him making his sons call him ‘sir’ was so unsettling to me. It’s just such a white/military concept to do to your alien family, like wtf Jake

[@allyli1718]

​@@dianashepherd3241My bad. I'll correct it to white and black families from monolingual cultures that speak only English. My thought process originally was that Sir is a word that has a lot of baggage specific to English. I agree that other cultures use honorifics when addressing elders, but usually those words are in a different language and are not really translateable to English speaking cultures. For instance, Chinese uses an honored pronoun "nin" to refer to like grandparents or parents of your spouse. This pronoun is more common and widespread than in English. Saying 'sir' or 'ma'am' to your grandma in English does not accurately capture the meaning in Chinese because English, by and large, does not use these honorofic titles and stuff except for more formal settings, such as when you're apologizing to your family or when you're talking to strangers or are in a business setting. This reflects how America is a lot more individualistic and open to freedom of choice as a cultural norm. In Chinese culture, however, honor based honorifics comes off as casual or normal or even sweet to do because humbleness, saving face, confucian hierarchies, and conformity to the group are the norm in Chinese. (That's not even mentioning the patriarchal baggage involved in Confucian cultures, but that's outside the scope of this discussion.) For reference, if you were to translate "nin" from Chinese to English, you might not even mention the respectful aspect of it because it's so normal it would be weird to point out in translation. So instead of translating "nin de cha" as "Here's your tea, sir," you'd just translate it as "Here's your tea." Maybe you'd add something like "Here's your tea, dearest Grandpa" if you were clunky about it, but 'dearest' still conveys that it's a form of respect that is warm and casual, emphasizing your care for them rather than their position over you. So when I say that Sir has a baggage in English, this is what I'm talking about. Rather than it coming across as sweet and respectful like it does in Chinese, it comes across more rigid or cold. You'd expect more stuff like 'dad' or 'mama' or 'daddy' or 'mommy' or 'mom' when it comes to a child speaking to their parent in private in America or Britain. Because rigid hiearchies aren't really the norm at home in English speaking cultures, 'sir' comes across like the children are being forced to be formal and respectful at all times with their own family. Or like a dad obsessed with making sure their child is 'put in their place,' if you will. Hence why I said it comes across as militaristic rather than traditional, as not only does the military emphasize rigid hierarchies, but the Sullys are also actively fighting a war against the humans. The military aspect makes sense in that light. It just rubs me the wrong way because they're aliens, and I don't see other Navi children doing it to their parents. It's unclear how much is a translation of Navi culture, how much is the militarism of fighting against humans, and how much is Jake Sully personally being kind of cold as a dad or letting his militaristic side take over. But obviously that's just my opinion. I just wanted to explain myself, as I'm not trying to be antagonistic at white people, just trying to get across how odd/specific this usage of Sir is. When I said white, I mainly meant people who only speak English, as those were the only families where I saw this usage of Sir, which is definitely a mistake on my part. If you view this as traditional, that's valid, too. I've never been around many traditional American families, since I was born Asian American, so maybe that was a cultural thing I've missed.

[@k.c.hughes3210]

My biggest issue with the movie was also Spider and Quaritch's relationship. It felt rushed and underdeveloped, like more of the movie should have been dedicated to their screentime to develop their motivations and arcs more. One thing that you made me realize was the inconsistency and the vagueness of the main theme of the movie. Upon my first viewing, I saw the main themes revolving around family and the necessary sacrifices you have to make in order to protect your loved ones, but like you said: the movie is called "The Way of Water" and even I couldn't tell anyone what exactly that meant. Apart from those things I really enjoyed the movie.

[@SaiDeLaRai]

Over ten years and it in ended up rushed and underdeveloped...yikes

[@k.c.hughes3210]

I mean it was clear from the beginning that all that wait time was dedicated to developing the underwater motion capture technology, and less on the writing. But apart from that element in the story I found it was a great experience.

[@SaiDeLaRai]

@@k.c.hughes3210 soooo much less, yes.

[@siyaamissack8788]

4:35 Schnee: Talking about power The Image: Baby Shark du-

[@GamingWins]

Let’s not forget “all energy is borrowed and one day you have to get it back”. Quaritch is the perfect foil for that sentiment that jives with the immortal Quaritch idea.

[@corneliusmaze-eye2459]

Except, we already have Immortal Quaritch. Neytiri says it herself when she realizes Quaritch is back from the dead, "Demon! I will kill you as many times as I have to!"

[@colorsrrealduh]

If you want a true Alien Ocean world experience, play Subnautica. This video game is what Way of Water wanted to be: it’s visually one of the most beautiful games I’ve ever played, incredibly fun and the story is amazing, about a stranded man trying to survive and find his way back home by discovering and learning about the untouched alien world around him. It’s also absolutely horrifying sometimes. Highly recommend it!

[@rebekkahill4664]

My main issue with the film was that the main lesson at the end of Avatar 1 was collectivism over individualism. Then very soon into Avatar 2 Jake abandons his tribe, forest and ancestors to protect 'him and his family' completely contradicting the lessons of the first film.

[@aras_mjzr9]

Exactly

[@cadenadelreino1442]

No. He also leaves to protect the tribe actually.

[@annett5]

​@@cadenadelreino1442 the fact his tribe wasn't attacked after he left is a plothole

[@elk45]

Oh thank goodness it's not just me! I came out of the movie thinking EXACTLY the things you just explained in this video. I felt it such as shame that they didn't take the time to explore Spider's identity dilemma (or at least set it up!), and the plot relied a lot on people trying to rescue other people and then needing to be rescued... But most of all, I was also *so confused* about what the way of water was getting at. Getting to hear your potential fixes was really satisfying!

[@S1leNtRIP]

LOVE your proposed fixes. They make the story so much richer! Immortal Quarich would’ve been so good! !

[@Complexicon_of_a_Startist]

@@N0TMICAH Maybe what they could've done with it is that with every reincarnation comes more character, in the sense that Quaritch learns more about the world every time he comes back and it affects him in some way Could be an empathetic theme, could be an exploitive theme, or it could be that he found something more precious and either wants to protect it because it's beneficial to him or wants to conquer/take it for humanity... because it's beneficial to him

[@spaniel5657]

@@Complexicon_of_a_Startist or vice versa, the Navi Quarich shows more humanity then his previous version. I think if they used the factory reset to be the stakes of all the progress Quarich made, so basically he goes from villain to friend. But the threat of him dying makes him coming back as a villain all that more terrifying for those he made friends with and his son spider. I also think the “way of water” means exactly what it is, water is a pacifist object, it follows gravity and fills in cavities. To disrupt water is to risk its wrath. Like breaking a dam wall is the same as hunting the whales to extinction, the order goes out the window and it becomes an unstoppable force

[@Complexicon_of_a_Startist]

@@spaniel5657 Ooooo I like that, makes it all the more devastating

[@minagaming2278]

@@N0TMICAH Welp bad news for you. IMDb shows Stephen Lang in every upcoming avatar movie...

[@readmachine18]

"It's not about the BLUE, it's about YOU" 🤣🤣🤣 I'm both wheezing *and* appreciating the truth of that statement 😝

[@nicholasdyee]

I left the theatre disappointed and now I'm hyped for the characters plot threads you just described, even though we'll never get them

[@cherrycola542]

Lo'ak and Kiri should stay separate. Because connecting their personalities doesn't work imo. They're just different.

[@ReblazeGaming]

By combining their characters it doesn't mean you combine their personality, it's just one less kid that both serve the same narrative purpose. You don't need two characters when one can get the job done.

[@autumnkey7058]

I kind of liked the way they wrote the children. It felt accurate to how real children behave, in movies I often see very linear personalities in children and then they kill the "wrong" child wich emotionally hurts the survived child but no one else seems to grieve! But in avatar Two there wasn't a kid who held all the good traits and the eldest dying was actually grieved in the movie by everyone. If you changed the kids in the way the video suggests older brother dying would be the brother that was thinking "wrong" dying and Middle bro would be the good adaptable kid. I get it is probably better writing but I find the original children more realistic which compels me more than having narritivly correct children.

[@ReblazeGaming]

The video didn't say one kid is right or wrong, just one can adapt and the other can't. You mention realism but in real life it's often you need to adapt to survive. The kid who ends up dead wouldn't have bad traits or something, just traits that suit their old way of life.

[@LivPC]

While I can see that the children in this movie were pretty accurately written overall personapity wise, I feel like sometimes they would repeat the same error (for plot points) again and again, and that just made them seem stupid to me... like, irl children would learn from these situations and change so it doesn't happen again, and they just didn't seem to learn. That bothered me a lot while I was watching

[@SaiDeLaRai]

The kid who died did hold all the good traits

[@MadJustin7]

Story had some serious pacing issues.

[@cshields99]

1st, I love seeing your channel expand from it's Arcane beginnings. Your insights on themes are excellent. I think the concept of "downloading" Quarich is a misstep. It invites too much what if scenarios. Not only what if infinite Quarich but what if we clone his body aswell? The technology is already there where we grew an Avatar, we can Jango Fett this guy and have an expendable army of supersoldiers. Adding too many new sci-fi concepts to a sci-fi movie can really muddle a franchise (see The Matrix sequels, Westworld, etc). Not sure if there is a fix since the cat's out of the bag but I'll be looking at the future sequels to see how they curb this. Maybe cloning humans is strictly forbidden on Earth or something.

[@AmazingMrMe123]

Avatar is much more space fantasy than any kind of hard sci-fi, bringing back quarich is more about a resurrection/reincarnation simile than it is a real sci-fi concept in my opinion.

[@SaiDeLaRai]

Possible explanation: Maybe having too many clones, like more then two, creates a feedback loop of some kind between them or their conciousnesses. I feel like you could set believable limitations based in reality or otherwise if you think about it long enough. The commenter above is correct, though.

[@kennethferland5579]

The problem is when a sci-fi 'gimic' is used as a escape hatch for plot, that's the stuff of Fantasy which can generally get away with it as it has the built in excuse of magic being rare. Proper hard sci-fi establishes the tech first and craft the entire WORLD around that as all characters and societies are shaped by their technology with the whole point of the story being about the HOW and WHY of that change. A fantasy story is about how the world bends around the characters heroic or villinous deeds any magic they use being a metaphorical extension of their individuality. Cameron in Avatar is telling a Fantasy story just like Lucas did in StarWars, their is no exploration of a technological society in these films, the society on screen is actually anacronistic in structure and culture vs the viewing audiance and just 'wears' technology as a costume.

[@julecaesara482]

I absolutely love the idea of condensing the two outcasts into one and giving spider, the potential future villain, more time

[@HeroDestrin]

When I watched the movie yesterday, I was blown away by the visuals. I laughed out loud several times at the quippy dialogue such as the scientist huffing and saying, "This is why I drink." I thought those sorts of lines and scenes were great, and way better than what Amazon or Disney are reaching deep into their anal cavities for these days. However, the sheer amount of children got overwhelming at one point. Wait, who are these people? Is that kid the guy who is the warrior, or the guy who is the outcast? Also, the characters were too little fleshed out. Wait, why does the daughter have spiritual powers? I dunno if I'm just being silly and missing a few points here (I'm sure I'm missing at least one or two), but that's how it felt for me. The moment you said in this video, "What does Spider REALLY want that the humans could give him?" my eyes widened and I was like "NO WAY!" because that is the PERFECT answer! I love a good twist villain too, and in my own novel have been trying to develop one - I thought Spider was a funny character, and I loved how much of an attitude he had. Turning him into a villain would make every Spider-loving audience member shout, "No!" from their chair. I would hate to see Spider reject his ways, but not only would that be complex and awesome... but it would emphasize Mr. Cam's points about humans always lusting over power. Man, you really know how to fix these stories, and I love these videos. Now I'm just disappointed Mr. Cam didn't hire you to co-write the movie.

[@HiIAmSpirit1]

@Hero Destrin I completely agree with everything! I have so much appreciation for visuals in movies, and I love beautiful scenes. That's basically the only reason why I like the Avatar movies so much. But you're not being silly, the many children made the whole thing... less. I don't know what I'm saying lol. Spider is the most perfectly set up twist villain to make the whole thing so much better. Also... you're writing a novel? I'm intrigued

[@HeroDestrin]

@@HiIAmSpirit1 Oh hi Spirit! Yea I've been working on a novel for a few years now and currently working fervently to get the editing wrapped up, though it'll probably be many more months - or years, God forbid - before it's done.

[@CorrinaMusic]

Exaaaaactly!!

[@alexkonjanan5810]

Ok honestly my theorie is that the thing that impregnated grace’s avatar was eywa and grace, when grace died and became apart of the spirit tree the avatar got impregnated with basically a recarnation of grace. There are big hints i think like grace’s actor voicing kiri and her whole conection with eywa is because she is a direct child of eywa. There were some pretty big hints i noticed, but it’s still a theorie, i just wanted to share.

[@HeroDestrin]

@@alexkonjanan5810 That's actually a really good theory. I didn't think about that - it would definitely explain both why Kiri has crazy powers, and why she was played by Grace's actress and not somebody else. It would be weird, and also make Kiri kind of a "Jesus" character, which has some odd implications... but a cool theory, and quite likely too, given the clues you mentioned.

[@HiIAmSpirit1]

I desperately hope that they're setting up some sort of anti-jakesully arc for Spider or at least some form of fix #3. Thanks to this video, I have a better idea of what it would look like, but now I'm anticipating something that likely won't happen

[@ubiquitousmop9935]

I was also thinking of what a good conflict it would be if Quaritch offered Spider an avatar body. After all in the very beginning Spider was set up to be a reflection of Jake from the first movie. But then I considered "what if Spider is fine in his human body?" I mean what if he really does like himself just the way he is? Sure he's still struggling with being accepted as Na'vi and that's shown a bit in the movie but it was not shown strongly enough to make me believe Spider would choose an Avatar body over his own. Still it would've been a great contrast especially since Jake in the first movie chose to stay in his Avatar.🧐

[@aishav.]

I really liked that the story wasn't so much about "the bad guys" and instead celebrated the world and people of Pandora

[@Money_maker12]

I didn't understand the story the way I see it is that they were just showing off the new environment of Pandora and the new characters and setting them up for the next sequel I think the next one might focus on kiri and her new powers learning how it works

[@crazydragy4233]

Worldbuilding is not the same as the story. I love worldbuilding too but not being able to do both is just being bad at writing lol

[@ericpheymannicie5044]

Love your rewrite, the "need to adapt without losing who we are" and competing subcultures within the Navi race coming together by combining mind-sets is definitely reminding me of something. Not sure if you've ever played Starcraft II's campaign all the way through, but this is directly mirroring the Protoss struggle with needing to separate from the Khala in order to survive the rogue Xel'naga's corruption. In the end, they triumph because they look to other Protoss who have found the answer already. They had always shunned the Dark Templar who severed their nerve bundles (space dreads connecting them to the Khala), until now they see this is the only way. They all take the plunge and sever their nerve bundles, uniting the two subcultures to fight the ongoing threat together, and it's beautiful. And yeah it's kind of exactly what you just came up with minus the family bit. Lol. I love it.

[@teejaykaye4357]

Saw this movie with my mom and spent almost the whole runtime thinking "man there are some little nuggets of story and character in here that could be GREAT if they just had better writing" and I'm glad the analysis and writing channels on KZbin are coming through with alternate takes on the movie

[@BlueMiaou]

The one thing that bugged me is how kiri's epilepsy was just used as an excuse to bring technology (and therefore the humans) to the water villages. It just pops up once and never again.

[@eyesthatreflecttheheart1095]

I thought it was pretty straightforward what the Way of Water was, especially since they even reiterate the “Way of Water” mantra not even just once but twice in the film, first when Tsireya teaches Lo’ak the way of water and again when Lo’ak teaches the way of water to Jake. Ironically, this video even explained what the Way of Water was right before complaining about it not making sense: the Way of Water is the spiritual philosophy that all life is connected, but the water tribe’s version of it (as opposed to the Omatikaya clan, since they were forest people and view the world through the lens of all things earth and trees instead of water, but the water clan view their world in waterlike terminology, which is why their philosophy and perspective of Eywa is encapsulated in a watery metaphor). Both Avatar movies are about all life being connected - literally, the entire Way of Water movie is about connections and how all life is connected to each other, only Avatar 2 differs in that it specifically focuses on the connection of family. The Way of Water is a reference to Eywa, and how all things are connected to each other. Eywa is sort of a Force-like deity who is present in all life. She is connected to all things and she connects all things, which is why the Na’vi people see Eywa as like water - everything is contained within her, and she is everywhere, like how when you’re immersed in the ocean you are always surrounded by water. Think of the Way of Water as Tsireya explaining Eywa: everything begins and ends with Eywa, Eywa is in all life, and all life is connected through her. It’s like how Neytiri explains to Jake in the first film how life is a gift: “all energy is borrowed, and one day you have to give it back”. Compare that philosophy to how Tsireya teaches that water surrounds everyone before they are born and after they die. Eywa is there before birth and after death, and she gives energy and life, but then it has to be given back. Much like how everything underwater is connected through water (since water as a force physically encompasses everything in it), Eywa is like the force that connects everything on the world of Pandora, life to death, beginning to end, etc. This connection symbolism is very clear and intentional, as it's recurrently shown how all life and creatures on Pandora are connected to each other, and Eywa is the connecting force. It’s not a coincidence that James Cameron designed the Na’vi people with braids that literally connect to every living creature on the planet. Both the first Avatar film and The Way of Water are about connection and being connected to the natural world around us, and the Way of Water was merely the water people’s water-themed version of the philosophy of the Na’vi’s religion.

[@trinitymette7586]

A great analysis! I really enjoyed it! The entire movie was about family, and playing around with the different family dynamics. I watched it with my friend (who was adopted) and she said that Spider saving Quaritch was extremely relatable and realistic to her. She said she would save any of her bio family in a heartbeat, even though many of them have done some pretty bad stuff.

[@dancooke8811]

The point James Cameron was making with Spider was exactly what you were complaining there was a lack of...because at the end he chose his real family...that is he was loyal to the people who raised him rather than the guy offering POWER and maybe an AVATAR and a job, however the general treated him like crap and he saw that.

[@crazydragy4233]

No, you miss the point. His choice was barely a choice because he literally wasn't offered anything else lol.

[@Wax_Man]

So to talk about the first fix for a second. Let me preface this with I thought Avatar’s story was ok, a 7/10 for the movie as a whole for me. Personally I find a villain that keeps coming back the same every time you kill them to be rather lackluster. I think a good villain is one that undergoes change whether that be hardening their beliefs or softening them. In the case of Quaritch I found “Quaritch but blue” to be an interesting combo as human Quaritch (which is a distinctly different character) was against all things Na’ve. In way of water he he takes his purpose to an elevated degree. What I mean by this is that the higher ups wanted to not trigger the immune response of Pandora. Quaritch takes it a few steps further, get gets an Ekran (the flying things) and speaks their language. In the film he also specifically states that he is not the human Quaritch, this is reinforcing his distance from his human aspects. To wrap this up we see a side of this character that we have never seen before, empathy. I’m talking about the ending scene with spider. I think that Avatar Quaritch will abandon his mission in search of a life of solitude and a relationship with his son. He would never join the Na’ve but I can see him putting up with them to have a relationship with his son. P.S. when I talk about the last scene with spider I mean the one where Neytiri was threatening his life. Also also it would be a pretty cool idea for the next movie if Quaritch stole avatar making stuff when he leaves the human. Mixes it with Spiders DNA and in five years (when Spider is an adult) then he would give him the avatar as a method to strengthen their bond. I think that it would be at that moment where we could get an interesting tipping point for Quaritch. Did he do that as a method to get closer to his son or has he been undercover and now has eyes, ears, and (maybe) a remote controlled body in the enemy main camp. He could be essentially like the Jake of that movie, living in two worlds

[@WeeLassReacts]

BRILLIANT points on this!!! HONESTLY!!! I agree with all your points, can I also add: STOP PAIRING ALL YOUR MAIN FEMALES OFF WITH MALE CHARACTERS. Thanx. Part of me was almost surprised they didn't bring in a little 7 year old male aqua Na'vi for Tuk. 🙄

[@losttessa6998]

Right??

[@challengingarmadillo8472]

There were some great world building elements in this movie, I love that they didn’t try to overreach their ambition in what the characters were fighting like in a lot of sequels, basically making the holding almost completely unrelated to the story and just there for conflict. Overall the setup is a great expansion of the world and all the little details of the actual setting was amazing, with the beautiful sea creatures to the evolutionary differences between the sea clans and the tree clans. However, character wise this movie was seriously lacking and confusing and I just felt like there were too many characters to keep track of. I had to go see it a second time because I only caught like, two of the characters names, partially because they weren’t that memorable as characters.

[@youwsernayme]

so interested in seeing your take on this movie, I was kinda disappointed after watching it and it felt really messy but I just can't pinpoint why... (also jake's voice over kinda threw me off? in the first movie it made sense since he spoke to a camera that documented his thoughts, but I don't remember if they gave a reason for it this time? it feels odd to change it into him breaking the fourth wall and narrating to the audience in the sequel when he didn't in the first one...)

[@meleewulf]

I had such a problem with that too, it didn’t make sense and added to the “Narration is lazy writing” when we could just see and understand what’s going on

[@crazydragy4233]

I kinda assumed he was telling the story but... who is he telling this to and when?

[@icyhotrelief4494]

I completely agree with all the stuff you said about Spider. To me, it seemed like he was kinda just there serving no greater moral or thematic purpose to the story as a whole, and it’s honestly hilarious how easy this would be to change

[@AstrumPhasma]

I feel like it's also important to remember that the only reason Jake even got to have an Avatar was through the sacrifice of a family member, specifically his twin brother. And who ends up dying at the hands of humans to allow for Spider to make the choice to either sacrifice Quaritch and his chance at being human or do the morally wrong thing for a chance to escape what he sees as a sad and limited existence that leaves him as an outsider to a culture he has nothing but loyalty for? Neteyam, his, in all but name, brother.

[@benjammin412]

Did anyone else notice how, while plenty of the CG was jaw-on-the-floor breathtaking, at other points it looked simply terrible? What's up with that?

[@niktodt1]

Yep! Especially jarring was the IMAX HFR. 70% of the movie was smooth, but then every other shot feels slow and laggy and then back to smooth again. Sometimes such changes happened thrice per minute. And it seemed like it was being used at random, it didn't matter if it was dialogue or action scenes. Instead it made the movie feel unpolished and unfinished. They should've made the whole film in HFR (with extra frame generation or motion smoothing, something that even a budget smart tv can do). IMAX really got the short end of the stick with this decision.

[@Elijah_Gillard]

I’m excited for this, but I also absolutely loved this movie, and don’t really know much much it ‘needs’ fixing

[@douglaswalker7707]

at its surface level the story is generic, but easy to follow and understand, the characters that need good character developement get it some what, and thats ok, dont like the trend of every one thinking that every darn movie needs to be some master class in writing for it to be enjoyable or good

[@luxyj4728]

@Douglas Walker that's is true but also I am tired of ppl saying a movie is good just bc it's pretty or has fun explosions. I'm 23 and I swear they don't make movies like they used to

[@douglaswalker7707]

@@luxyj4728 funny you say that because both avatars are exactly how they made older action movies, nothing but action with pretty explosions and subpar dialouge with a generic story just coherent enough to know wtf is going on, but doesnt explore past the surface level of the theme at hand

[@luxyj4728]

@Douglas Walker Jason Bourne, Indiana Jones, original marvel movies, pirates of the Caribbean and countless others they all had great plot I'm not sure what yours used but movies were made better

[@douglaswalker7707]

@@luxyj4728 im talking about the action movies of the 70s. 80s. and 90s, james cameron thought of this movie(avatar in general) around the late 80s and 90s so im saying it aligns with the the popular action movies of those times

[@jarnbico]

combining the kids would be such a great way to get to know each one better and more deeply. I was upset because we didnt get to know neteyam as well as we could have if there werent so many other things and people we had to focus on so his death wasn't as impactful as it could have been.

[@jhinjhin00_1]

I watched the movie last night and just felt something was incomplete inspite of it being a freaking visual treat! This video helps with that feeling of something missing, wish they had these ideas and ut would be the greatest movie of the year!

[@Ploppity01]

THANK YOU FOR THIS! I loved the first movie because it was about a broken man finding new life, new body, through connection with nature. Nature = life. All life is connected. You must respect every living thing, including the rainforest. The first movie was very satisfying despite the simplistic human characters and a few inconsistencies (like when Jake and Neytiri were hunting, they celebrated the death of an animal even though Neytiri taught that you should never be happy at death). I loved the first movie, but the sequel felt like... just the same story! They even reused a line: "You're not in Kansas anymore. You're in Pandora." Yes, we know Quaritch, you said that last time. Doing the same Jake voiceover as well in the second movie didn't make sense because he's no longer talking to a camera. It felt repetitive and lazy. I'm very intrigued at the idea of the inevitability of colonialism. Would've loved to see this explored. Anyway, thanks as always schnee for the amazing content!

[@erasmus_locke]

You have to remember that this part of a four movie series that Cameron has planned. He's stated several times that he shot a 6 hour long movie and split it in half.

[@erasmus_locke]

But you've right about the current movie still needs work and can't use " there will be more" as an excuse

[@enzoamore8971]

@@erasmus_locke the Star Wars Sequel Trilogy argument doesn't work since there were two different creators fighting eschother to make a story. James Cameron has his whole vision planned for all films.

[@HxH2011DRA]

You could totally make a unified theory of Sponge Symbolism for the first few seasons of SpongeBob! (up to where it was supposed to end, the movie) These are some great lessons for writing ones own stuff as always, was getting hyped over the big-brained war stories section!

[@onygenre]

These companies should really hire you to help them improve movies before release lol. Love your takes on this kind of thing!

[@ccormore]

Very cool ideas, so simple, but they would totally fix the movie. I especially enjoy your ideas about morphing those two kids together and making the water symbolism stronger.

[@dianamuller4231]

I think the way you would fixed spider and the idea of immortal Quarich is really good! It would make the movie much more interesting.

[@_Rhatsody]

the idea of spider going back to earth is really dumb. going to and back would take 10 years off his life for no reason and serves no purpose to the overall plot. its just wish fulfillment fanfiction on the fans part, not the directors vision

[@LuisSierra42]

The random fish toys in the background are so hilarious

[@siddiqsmouse5004]

I love that in your version it's Spider that's getting caught in the web rather than the pesky fly, that is Quarich

[@cyberhawkgames]

1 simple issue... If, you want to REALLY show the immortality of Quaritch in the film, the best and really the only effective way to really show the scale of his immortality is to have him die in the film, and come back, and die again, and come back, and just keep returning. That would really send the message home to the characters and the audience that Quaritch is a never-ending force of darkness. HOWEVER, if you want to show that, there is a few logistical issues. Such as, the time it takes for an Avatar to be grown, or the time that it takes for said Avatar's to be transported from Earth to Pandora... It takes over 5 years to travel from Earth to Pandora, during which, is the time that RDA uses to grow the Avatars. If you want Quaritch's immortality to be INTERESTING and THREATENING, then he needs to be able to die and come back QUICK. But, Avatar's are EXPENSIVE, and TAKE TIME. So you're left with what? Quaritch dies once a movie? Well then you're left with the Same old Quaritch basically every movie. He's this static, comically evil, villain who never changes, and you can never empathize or sympathize with. But Avatar: The Way of Water, made me sympathize with Quaritch and his relationship with Spider. He wanted badly to get his revenge, but no matter what, he wouldn't let himself lose his son in the process. Quaritch is a bad man, and his complexity comes in the strange ways that he shows he cares for Spider, despite being a bad guy. Despite his issues. I think the temptation of Spider is an interesting concept, but because this is only his first film in what is going to be a franchise, it's easy to see that Spider is really in his infancy of his character ark, much like Quaritch is too. Spider will be tempted, and he may even change sides, all of which I think would be extremely awesome. I think Spider's utility in the Film is less as a character who is challenged by his father to do the wrong thing, because Spider's character is not really used that way at all, and in truth, Spider isn't even the important piece of the puzzle. The important piece, is Quaritch, and his character's struggle with his own Humanity. Spider exists as a lense for Quaritch to view himself through. Quaritch sees his son look at him when he does terrible things, and this slowly breaks Quaritch's character. It is meant simply as a method for the audience to understand why Spider is so important to Quaritch, why Quaritch would give up victory, would offer to take Spider, etc... Its all for a reason. But Spider WILL be tested more, as Quaritch becomes more desperate to regain his son back. But eventually, it will take Quaritch's own self-sacrifice, either through death, or through betraying Humanity, for him to finally gain Spider's absolute love and trust again. This is the beauty of The Way of Water's writing. To address your BLATANT ignorance on the basis of Avatar: The Way of Water's themes and what The Way of Water means, I'll do my best to explain. As the Metkayina princess explains to Lo'ak, The Way of Water is "the path" of life. It is there before you are born, it is within you, and everything, and it will be there after you are gone. The Way of Water is the connectivity between things, much like Eywa and the trees being connected. This film is only helping to re-affirm that idea, and show that the different cultures still end up with similar answers. It is like a small commentary on Religion. Like how Allah and God are the same, and that the main religions all depict the same being, despite having different ways of following it, but Pandoran society certainly all believe in Eywa. When Jake remembers his time with his son, teaching him to shoot at fish, it is a strong scene of what a Father does with his son, what he teaches him. Jake's teachings were with their older son Neteyam were always there, they are what brought him and his son closer together, it is what made them Father and Son, more than genetics, but their bond with one another. It's only further compounded by Jake's experiences at the end of the film. When Neteyam is killed, Jake remembers his old self, who he used to be, and who he is now. His life before is still apart of him, and it will be there after he is gone. Jake will forever be part human and Na'vi. Then, at the end, Jake is given a vision back to Neteyam by the pond fishing. He is reminded of his time with Neteyam, and what had made him his father. These memories, these things that they did to bond, they were there before and made him a father, and even with Neteyam gone, they are still there. Jake will never not be Neteyam's father, even if Neteyam is gone. The Way of Water is the continuous river. Things flow and go, and yet they leave imprints wherever they touch. This further brings home Jake's need to be a better father to Lo'ak, we see his connection with Lo'ak grow stronger after Neteyam's death. Its very, very powerful. This of course, is simply how I saw it. I thought it was painfully obvious too, but I guess not. The Way of Water is simply a backnote to the foundation of FAMILY, and of course the environmental message of protecting our oceans. Lastly, Unobtainium is not as stupid as people try to make out. Unobtainium is an ACTUAL definitional word that scientists would use to describe an extremely useful, or expensive material. If humans had not discovered titanium and then one day, someone did, and it was incredibly difficult to mine for titanium, it wouldn't be far off to just call it unobtainium. Its a difficult material to mine for, almost impossible, but it's insanely worth it. Even more so, the whale brain juice is nothing like Unobtainium. In The Way of Water, they are throwing out unobtainium completely out, as the General literally says "I'm not here to run a mine, Colonel." So we know unobtainium is not necessarily needed anymore for the story. It was simply something for RDA to go after, but now its an entire military effort. In The Way of Water we learn that humanity is preparing to now make a complete exodus from Earth to live on Pandora. We can assume that as soon as the military returned to Pandora, those whale fishers were already whaling, getting right to it. They bring up the brain juice so late into the film and it is so obviously NOT the driving force of the enemy, that to compare this material to unobtainium is just outright stupid and so besides the point of the film's weak points.

[@magniwalterbutnotwaltermag1479]

Simple solution: make the mission soo important for humanity that one of the newer details is that there are facilities for the job elsewhere and closer, they are trying to save the earth or at least find a new home and the best way to do that is with the best tech and there isno better tech than being able to adapt your body to a new planet, and the immortality juice from the whales needs to be dropped to make room for this or maybe they can make it so the whale juice is actually able to accelerate the avatars growth and now they're trying to make full on armies of them

[@internetimagery]

The commander was hardly there in the film. If instead of the humans going all in on taking out Jake and giving the clone massive authority, they make him an expendable pawn (which he is, since he's company property no doubt). That way he has to struggle with orders and bend the day to day missions to get opportunities for revenge. Thus we have a conflict with the navi and a conflict within the humans too (and it would explain why he can't come after the sullies with the full force of the humans).

[@Magni87]

To me, the experience of this movie was of a slice-of-life story that forces scenes for big set pieces again and again. Even using the same excuse many times in a row. To be fair, if it ain't broke don't fix it.

[@emma7146]

I was hoping you would do a video on Avatar! This is absolutely stunning, as are all of your videos. As a story-writing connoisseur, I am thrilled every time you post a video and hope to learn so many more things from you!

[@mercury9765]

This video is amazing. I feel like this movie suffered MASSIVELY from second book syndrome. They could have done SO much with Spyder but continued to say absolutely nothing. Kiri actually made no sense. They opened about 50 questions and answered 0 of them. Like who’s her dad? Is it the tree thing? Why does she have this power? Does she have the seizures cuz of power of some kind of condition? How does she work past this “condition” if she has it? How does she resolve the arc of feeling outcast? Why doesn’t she get a whale? (I was actually confused, because her brother who seems much less spiritual gets a spirit whale). She made no sense. I have so many questions and no answers.

[@thesexyskywalker3283]

All will be more than certainty answered in the next three movies. Don't worry and don't let these questions undermine the film itself. We are just in the middle of the story.

[@mercury9765]

@@thesexyskywalker3283 ya but every story should be a good story contained within itself as well as in the greater picture of the entire narrative. And this kind of fails there

[@thesexyskywalker3283]

@@mercury9765 I do somewhat agree. But James Cameron wrote a huge script and he had to find a way to split it all up. In fact, the actual second movie was made into the comic series that takes place before the second film. Adds a lot of context. Essentially, from what I can tell movie 2,3,4,5 are an entire interconnected plot.

[@thesexyskywalker3283]

@@connorcoco2152 You could see it that way but more than likely the story was envisioned as one whole piece. Meaning it will make sense if you watch all the movies in a row and plus leaves some mystery and suspense for the next one.

[@CelestialDraconis]

Wow, this is the first time I fully agree with _every single point_ a youtuber makes in a video. I don't know why I never thought of these, but they're so simple they're genius. It's honestly so obvious in hindsight and would've made the movie so much better.

[@AJay-yq4vl]

I am just discovering you, and I find your take incredibly fascinating. I started with your review of 'how to write women' from how you consumed/understood of Arcane from Netflix, but you're incredibly perceptive and put things in a frame of mind I wouldn't have considered. When I was a teenager writing her own fiction, I used to do the same kinda shit; as an adult beaten down by being in retail life, I haven't critically consumed any of the media I've been forced to witness. Watching these videos helped reawaken parts of me I thought were dead, and I kinda feel revitalized. I'm gonna watch more of your videos for awhile, but thank you for re-inspiring me and lighting a fire under what I thought was a dead dream.

[@oneinamalonereads]

I agree with the Qatritch (Spider's dad) being disappointing. When I saw him back on screen I had to keep from groaning at re-using the same exact villain from the previous movies without much nuance added. It would have been far more compelling if Spider was shown really struggling between his acceptance from humans he hates vs the rejection from the Navi he loves and the choices he would end up making based on that. They have such an interesting idea going with Kiri and her potential "father" being Eywa (my theory anyway) and her connection to this sentient planet and they really dropped the ball on the seizure/connection storyline. I also thought the word "bro" wasn't used nearly enough between the kids. But the scenery, WOW, made me jealous I don't have a whale as by bestie

[@Marg_Sabl]

I disagree about the whale oil parallel. Unobtainium was dumb, yeah, but to me at least the immortal whale oil is a interesting parallel actual whale oil and how irl whales were hunted for their oil only for it to be basically wasted. The navi whales are these majestic creatures with culture and intelligence yet the humans hunt them for vain and greedy reasons. Is it a mguffin, yeah, but thematically works better than unobtanium and makes the parallels to real world whaling (which is still legal in some countries) more apparent. Instead of humans kill space whale cuz they evil, its humans kill space whale cuz they greedy. We can still despise and disapprove but in a deep level understanding why they do it. I thought it was bold that this big blue expensive blockbuster movie was able to have a more thematically applicable pro environment message. Instead of the stock standard “save the trees, pollution is bad” message we got “whaling in a uniquely evil crime that needs to be stopped”

[@schnee1]

I'm all for a story about the nuanced evil of mass whaling, but what made this unobtainium 2 for me was the aging thing. Taking an already simplistically evil portrayal of humanity and making whale hunting about extreme and meaningless indulgence is just destroying any potential for nuance. Actual human greed can be really complex and relate to all these interesting but corrupt aspects of our society, but with this, it just feels like "fill in the blank superficial nonsense". It's still essentially "humans kill space whale cuz they evil" as you put it. Can you elaborate on what you mentioned about whale oil being wasted? My understanding was that whale oil was used mostly for lighting, and having some kind of practical purpose, even if they made it extreme somehow to emphasize the immorality, would have worked so much better here imo.

[@KnockMonsterr]

I feel like we definitely should've gotten more focus on Quaritch and Spider - their connections, both in their family link and their displacement (Quaritch becoming a Na'vi Avatar while fighting for the human conquest, and Spider being a human adopted to the side of the Na'vi) has potential to be a far more compelling emotional core than the run-of-the-mill family drama we got from the protagonists.

[@SuicideMclovin]

I really do think they are setting up the Spider dilemma already. And you know what’s convenient? They don’t even need a new DNA sample from Spider to start growing a new avatar. Because his dad’s DNA is already in the system.

[@silver9wolf6]

Great analysis, love your breakdown! I wasn't sure what annoyed me about the movie and I think I'm getting a better picture now. I just wish I cared, and I think these changes would've helped. There's a pixar rule for storytelling about combining characters, and they really should have. Like, Kiri and Lo'ak seem to be the protagonists going forward, so instead of combining them, combine Kiri and Tuk (the littlest girl). Then you really have the older brother being the 'normal' one

[@cherrycola542]

The way of water is the connection between the creatures of the water to each other and the sea itself. I thought it was sorta obvious

[@aishav.]

I think you're right. I see it as an expansion of the Leitmotiv from the first movie. Everyone and everything on Pandora is connected.

[@cherrycola542]

@@aishav. Exactly

[@schnee1]

If there's no difference between the way of water and the way of the forest, I don't see why they're making a whole second movie about it. Also, my confusion is premised on this way of water idea characterizing the story arcs, and I don't see the connection idea in eg lo'ak's development or spider's arc or neteyam's death.

[@ikaemos]

That's how I understood it as well. On dry land, Eywa requires a direct interface, but Kiri appears capable of connecting "wirelessly" when underwater. The whole "Na'vi are a post-singularity species whose AI took over their entire planet and bioengineered all life forms to its service"-theory is the most interesting thing about Avatar for me, so while TWoW throws a few more tidbits of information about that, it's very minimalistic. More concrete setup would be appreciated.

[@gymnastgirlflips]

I especially agree with what you said about Spider. I don't get why with such a huge run time we don't get to see their "normal life" before leaving the forest. How did Jake's kids interact with the rest of the Na'vi? How was Spider treated among them? We saw that Jake's kids loved him like a friend and maybe even a brother, but obviously Neytiri thought of him as demon spawn, which didn't exactly seem fair when she married someone who she's seen with a human body that literally helped destroy her home. I do agree with having Neytiri not trust Spider, but there should have been more to it. Like instances of them being kids and Spider accidentally hurting them or her having nightmares or something. And getting to see things from Spider's perspective of how much he craves to belong with the Na'vi only to be shunned (much like Disney's Tarzan) would have made it so clear he wanted a Na'vi body. Next, I'd have him get one for doing whatever his "dad" wanted (though without detrimentally hurting the Na'vi) and still being rejected, including by Neytiri, which would be such a blow to him when Jake had been in the same position. And, desperate, he goes to Eywa to ask for a complete soul transfer into his Na'vi body, only to be rejected by her as well. He tried everything, while his "father" has been forming those seeds of doubt in him this whole time. Maybe even Spider is the one to kill him, but something even worse could have risen from those ashes. ...It's really not that hard to brainstorm like this and come up with a better story. I don't get why they had to repeat the same story with no character growth again.

[@pakthecube]

1.Growing, downloading the memories and equipping Quaritch and his whole team is probably expensive. If doesn't do the job the second or third time the humans will probably not think "oh lets send him AGAIN" doing the same thing again and again expecting different results is just insane and I think humans that can send other humans in space to other planets get that. 2. Quaritch doesn't know what Spider wants and Spider sure as hell isn't telling his captives what he want. Plus even if Quaritch found out that Spider wanted to be na'vi Jack and his family told Spider what ass his father was. 3. I agree that they should stop with the Unobtainium. It feels like they just threw that just in case, just to make Pandora even more op for some reason, maybe it's because they thought they needed to explain why the hunters are hunting the Pandora Whales, but it really feels out of place.

[@cherrycola542]

Honestly I think Quaritch will end up letting the feud go tbh

[@Flowery1991]

Great video! You have a good focus for good writing. I think James Cameron's focus is more on the technical execution of the films and the visuals. And yes, the story is simple, but I still find it entertaining. To be honest, I don't think we always need complex, deep stories in every series/movie. Arcane has spoiled us a lot in that regard. But I appreciate your ideas, and certainly your way of telling the story would have been a good way.

[@rabbitadventurous9441]

I agree with you as well!

[@ReblazeGaming]

No one is asking for it to be the biggest brain multilayered plot ever, but any story, movie etc. would benefit from well, a more interesting story. And you're right some movies have something else that's the main appeal, e.g watching an action movie just for the well done fight scenes but of all the movies that would benefit from a better plot, this Avatar movie feels like one of them. So much potential wasted because they went with such a safe/ generic story. You say Cameron was focusing more on the visuals, but it's not either you have good visuals or a bad plot, or good plot and bad visuals. You can have both and SHOULD strive for both. At the end of the day a movie is a story and the visuals are just the method of delivering the story to you.

[@henryha835]

I think James Cameron wanted to do more with the movie but couldn’t without making it too long like with all the deleted scenes from the first avatar that would’ve made the movie better

[@moonlitmortician6694]

Hang on, what if Quaritch meet the next clone of himself. Like there was a big old accident or battle, people thought he was dead, so they clone him, and old blue Quaritch meets new blue Quaritch. There’re so many possibilities in tight. Maybe OB Quaritch turns good after being confronted with how expendable he is. Maybe they fight over who Spider goes with, throwing Jake in the mix there which’ll force him to confront Natiri’s human hate. Maybe they go balls to the wall and team up.

[@losttessa6998]

They should be hiring you lmao

[@emilleoandresen]

I agree with much of what you say, the water tribe's philosophy and way of life should have been better explained and more central to the story. and spider had the potential to be a much more interesting character than what we ended up with. and an immortal Quaritch would be fun. i also feel that neytiri could have had a more interesting role in the movie (eg if jakesully stayed at the front to fight and neytiri led mothers, children and injured na'vi to safety and sought shelter with the water tribe) since she didn't do something exciting before the end of the movie. jakesully would have appeared later to help them.

[@ralfjadevincegundran6229]

From what I saw, The way of the water is that it connects everything. You know, the speech that Tsireya gave.

[@peteresenwa]

I am just stopping by to say, love the ideas you came up with. I could feel that things were off while seeing this movie, but you crystallized the issues for me then offered very effective solutions. Bravo

[@aishav.]

@schnee was there really NOTHING you liked about the movie? Yes, I also thought they would make Spider turn on the Na'vi but I don't think the movie is bad just because they went another route. On one hand some people are dissatisfied if the story goes the obvious way. And If it goes another way some people are also disappointed. I guess you can't make everybody happy. And I think we can't have Arcane levels everywhere...sadly

[@schnee1]

I said in the beginning i thought the movie was fine, the plot was messy with themes but still well founded and interesting, the family dynamic was done well, the characters were mostly well established but most of the arcs didn't really come together, the worldbuilding was obviously very impressive.

[@aishav.]

I think sometimes we can forgett the ways in which we humans sometimes say and do things that don't make much sense... we make mistakes and emotional driven choices. I loved the movie. I can see the reasoning behind spider's actions. He's a kid...he's torn between his "dad" and his Na'vi family. Jake is more of a father to him than anyone else is. And that's what's familiar to him. Humans tend to gravitate towards the familiar.

[@arkansky]

Yeah but he should not have any familiarity for a copy of a biological dad he never knew. Especially as a child, you don't just decide that a clone of a person you share DNA with is more important to you than the people you spent your entire life with and that said clone will keep killing till he's replaced by another. Even if it was the original guy and not a clone, that would not make any more sense to me. And if that's the "quality time" he spend with him as a literal hostage that drove him to get closer to him, kid has issues and I hope there are Na'vi therapists.

[@aishav.]

@@arkansky yeah I know what you mean. I meant familiarity towards his Na'vi family. He didn't choose his "clone dad" because of the reasons you described so well. But I can see how he gets confused and overwhelmed when he meets the closest person to his biological father. Every child has a need to know where they're from. And I guess his curiosity and the fact that Quadritch(-Clone) prevents Neytiri from killing him might have sparked a kind of hope to connect to his biological father. He's literally stuck in the middle. Yes he's biological human but grew up amongst the Na'vi. We don't know about his mom...what kind of relationship he has with her.

[@arkansky]

@@aishav. I think you're right. He probably was confused, and when his dad-clone let his hostage go in order to save him, it brought even more confusion. That actually makes sense. Still, in that case, I think the movie should have told us a little more about Spider's desires, such as his curiosity or a sort of human nostalgy. Picturing him as an all out Na'vi from the beginning to the end even after having a knife under his throat made this final choice quite questionable in my opinion.

[@jeancolley8908]

The Avatar films are both so damn beautiful. It's clear how much time and care has gone into the visuals and the visual worldbuilding of this franchise. So where, WHERE, is that care in the script and plot building? Both films have had such simple, sloppy scripts that "set things up" without ever actually paying them up. The seizure thing is the most obvious point, but it's such a common problem. Chechov's guns are everywhere, and it seems like they'll never fire

[@lorazmin]

Yeah you hit the nail on the head. Too many confusing messages and not enough exploration of storyline potential. I actually didn't have much of an issue with Spider's decision at the end. I saw it coming hours ahead, the moment he was captured and offered an opportunity to bond. Wasn't surprised by it at all. What I did have an issue with was his time he spent in captivity. It felt so wasted.

[@katelynshelton410]

Remember this is supposed to be a four part movie series so they will probably expand on these themes and get more complex over time

[@schnee1]

Eh.. we're already 2/5 of the way through, shouldn't "over time" be right about now? I argued endlessly on this point with friends about star wars ep7 when that came out, so I guess some people are more forgiving, but I don't think future movies should let you off the hook for underdeveloped elements within each story.

[@chuknukbubs6322]

@@schnee1 arcane has spoiled us in efficient and clean writing. Comparing how much Arcane got done with 9 hours and thinking of what Avatar would be doing with 12 hours; at this rate it's not even close if Cameron doesn't get his bearings or doesn't have confidence in his characters. The movies are still stunning though, so I will definitely support him. Also Schnee, I absolutely love your takes on all the popular media coming out recently. Seeing how you make comparisons in your videos to Star Wars, I NEED to wholeheartedly recommend Andor as a slow-burn developmental show with specific arcs and payoffs for you to watch. I'd die to hear your thoughts on the characters and how they are treated completely different compared to recent Disney shows.

[@cassiopeiasfire6457]

@@chuknukbubs6322 I second the Andor recommendation, it's my favorite thing since Arcane.

[@katelynshelton410]

@@schnee1 i feel like comparing this work to other works you like more will kill your enthusiasm for the series. Yes, its a bit bisic and simplistic but that doesn't mean it needs fixed. It means you would like it more complex. which is valid, but we cannot judge too early, this movie feels like a setup for bigger things. its just taking its time.

[@v.v365]

This franchise is just full of wasted potential

[@pikapuffin368]

I have now consumed this movie and the improved version without ever buying a ticket, wow. Great job fixing it!

[@nerotomosoy482]

So sad you weren't writing the script. Your fixed Avatar 2 sounds so much better.

[@leultrainstinct406]

Honestly I found nothing wrong with this movie. It improved on everything that was missing from the first one. On top of the amazing animation and action sequences, it had a beautiful story and meaningful characters. The best thing about it was how it brought the way of water theme back full circle toward the end.

[@arkansky]

Well there is nothing *wrong* with it because it takes zero risk whatsoever. It is not bad nor very good, it is just... there, because a beautifying filter was applied to a centuries old scenario template with not a single try to make it any original. Characters are likable cause they are victims or hatable cause they are opressors, all in all making them quite shallow. How I feel about the movie (and as I understood by the intro of this video, that might also be how schnee feels) is that we had the right to expect more from a million dollar Cameron movie than just the most visually pleasant generic story of all time. As in, a story that is not borderline boringly generic.

[@gvhgnjhg1387]

As a stand alone movie it was average, however as a sequel it doesn't do right by the first movie nor does it carry any of the strong themes of the first

[@LuisSierra42]

@@arkansky that's exactly how i feel about this movie. It is so obvious that they manufactured these characters and the plot to appeal to as big audience as possible and this implied not taking any risks. This is the last Avatar movie i'll ever watch

[@benjammin412]

We all must have watched a different movie than you

[@Super_BeastGirl]

First off - Love the analysis as always. For me I left the theater very confused and not too excited for the next movie. There were a lot of great elements, there was some exploring of different aspects of the world of Pandora and it was great to explore a new tribe and new environment as well as new animals and ways that the people can connect with the animals too. I did like Spider and the juxtaposition of him as an extra kid in the family, almost like he's adopted and how that made him disposable to Netiri at the end when it came down between her kids and the main baddy.

[@soup8685]

Honestly, I would have preferred a movie without humans at all. They way you described the possibilities Spider had as a character was super interesting, but there were other plots I was more interested in like Kiri's connection to Eywa and Lo'ak's frustration with being the "disappointing" son. They just glossed over them in favor of the same story line from the first movie

[@koffeeaddiquet]

dude, what I would give to have your analysis skills. Chef's kiss.

[@williamapple7705]

It stinks that the plot isn’t better, but you know what? I still did enjoy the film quite a bit. Edit: I’ll say this, I think we might have gotten mor exposition and focus on the world in this movie because it’s sort of a reintroduction to the Avatar series. I can’t forgive some of the missed plot beats I think fit perfectly (like Spider being offered an Avatar, I’m not sure where that was cut out in the script because I’m certain the writers originally discussed this) but I’m pretty hopeful 3-5 will have more compelling narratives.

[@cherrycola542]

Tbh... I don't think you were paying attention to the movie. Kiri didn't have a seizure because of the water... She had a seizure because she connected to the tree of souls... Why on earth would she have a seizure if she's nowhere near the tree of souls when she's saving Tuk and Neytiri? That wouldn't make any sense and if that happened you'd put that in this video like "Why did she have a seizure? The whole point was that she couldn't connect back to the tree of souls because that caused her seizure, even Norm said she wouldn't be able to connect to it again. So why did she just randomly have a seizure when she wasn't even interacting with it, we saw that she had this innate connection with the water and is able to stay under there for an extremely long time while the animals instantly warm up to her, so why would this of all things give her a seizure? Especially if she was underwater for a lot of the final battle" Not to mention that she literally ended up controlling an underwater tentacle creature to stop the sub team from getting to them, and even then, when connecting and controlling a creature that's connected to Eywa she didn't have a seizure.

[@schnee1]

I'll clarify for you. Kiri was set up with a conflict about flying too close to the sun essentially. She has this special connection to eywa that lets her do things like control the glowy fish etc, it also gives her what she desires most: connection with her mother, but its also dangerous for her. This sets up an interesting dilemma she'll have to tackle that will force development for her. She'll have to grow stronger or braver or more understanding to tackle this dangerous ability of hers. BUT they unfortunately left that for a future movie. Saving her family via this connection was making use of what her arc is about, but it didn't confront the conflict they had set up for her or force any climax-worthy character growth.

[@DanQZ]

That spider idea is really good.

[@McCallaFilms]

I came here on the recommendation of KZbinr LOCAL, and I can honestly say, I'm glad I did! Good content this one! ;)

[@tristancole8158]

Life is complicated. Not everything should try to boil down its message into one line. Some stories can do that, like the first one, which was pretty much anti-materialism, anti-colonialism, pro-humanism. But this one was a more typical story with a lot going on, a lot of expansion. Maybe it could have been cooler, but it was still a good movie about family and friendship and the relationships of the characters. It also is aimed at a rather young audience(the target audience of the last movie now has young children, so that makes sense), so a lot of the cliches like the "group of kids abandoning the new kid somewhere dangerous" cliche or many others that my dad critiqued about the movie are new concepts to much of the audience. Even to the people who recognize them as common tropes, they can still fit into a good story and have some value in occurring with these new characters.

[@crazydragy4233]

You don't make a convincing argument as to why the writing can't be improved.

[@tristancole8158]

@@crazydragy4233If you don’t get why they contrived conflicts that wouldn’t occur in real life, that’s part of film-making, exaggerating or focusing on important actions or motivations to create a moral purpose. In this story I think it was the eventual whiteness on the colonel’s character as even the most callous person possible cared about his son’s life, and he could become alright. In the first film the moral was that the worst people far too frequently are unopposed in our world and that we should become the jake sully of our world, whatever that situation may be. And it may literally be the deforestation and animal abuse green lit by corporate execs too caught up in becoming successful to care. I hated the whaling scene and destruction scenes in this movie as much as anyone but maybe they were necessary.

[@crazydragy4233]

@@tristancole8158 That's a lot of words for "it's good enough"

[@tristancole8158]

@@crazydragy4233if you hated the movie it wasn’t meant for you. I loved the first one and this one was a good sequel, and the next one seems much more promising storyline-wise

[@crazydragy4233]

@@tristancole8158 Lol, I suppose writing for the lowest common denominator has to please some people.

[@sososoe3101]

I'm curious to see how you're going to save this flat antagonist. His motives, his conclusions from his motives and the relationship to Spider just don't make sense. Not at all. I was really shocked how a JAMES F*CKING CAMERON could write this. As if the film is nothing more than cool SGI and emotions. So wtf - they had 13 years time.... Greetings from Germany :)

[@sososoe3101]

Every time Spider appeared, I was completely taken out of the film and almost had to laugh. What is Tarzan doing in Avatar? I'm totally in love with the world and the Na'vi. But new plots that make sense or characters that act as they should are not the film's strong point.

[@sleepylionking1103]

I really really love Avatar 2 bc it’s simple while still having small deep messages in it. But I do agree it did need some things fixed.

[@ashe9809]

I can agree with half of this but the "Way of Water" part is actually complex and simple, it's really said in the line that we hear throughout the movie; The Way of Water is the way of all things. It's literally, I believe, an elaborate metaphor of life and death. Water is said to be in some cultures around our won world something beginning and primordial in their oral histories or stories left behind. I think that's really what's going on here in that we see the beginning of a life in water, and the full cycle of it with how things ended with Neteyam dying and then it beginning again when they say 'we are people of the water', etc. Anyway, that's just my take on it. :)

[@Kurogane335]

What bothers me is that 1. Humans are Evil, capital E. Not just evil in the sense that they come as colonialist assholes, not I mean Evil. It makes hard to care about them when the film tries to do that from time to time. The whole of Spider's arc feel cheap because of it, we're supposed to believe he's torn between two worlds but it's basically "Hey, do you wanna feel like a good guy or do you want to be Satan?" which sucks. 2. Humans are said to come from a dying planet but you never feel that way. They should be with less rutilant tech, they should have that sort of desperation vibe of, "our planet is doomed but we won't go down without a fight" - it could even been used to highlight the differences between Pandora and Earth. The former nurtured symbiosis in her children, the latter taught hers to fight for domination or to die. 3. Humans have insane tech, yet don't use it for basic effects. If they can send their consciousness in Avatars, why not in robots ? If they can create weird Human/Na'Vi clones, why not simply modify their own genome or even create organs to implant to be able to breath on Pandora instead of using masks and all. Overall I liked the movie, will see it again soonish, but still. I feel like it's missing a lot of stuff, you know ?