Science Influencers Need to Police Their Own: top "science based" Influencers who need a callout!

[@fwoggangidk]

Can I get a pin for being this early?

[@atlaspowershrugged]

Sure why not

[@I_Might_B_Wrong]

Dude, it happened, now edit your post to say something nonsensical!

[@atlaspowershrugged]

​@@I_Might_B_Wrongscreencapped in case he changes to something outta pocket

[@dynaspinner64]

@@I_Might_B_Wrong KZbin will just remove the heart and pin comment if you edit it lol

[@I_Might_B_Wrong]

@dynaspinner64 Damn...

[@GVS]

It's easier to look the other way with this kind of stuff, I hope Jeff speaks up and pushes back at some point. If there's a rot in the evidence based community, it should be healed if possible and cut out if not. Big props to Dr. Helms for saying something on the Iron Culture podcast episode with regards to the protein issue, you could tell he hesitated right before doing so...it wasn't easy but it was the right thing to do.

[@atlaspowershrugged]

@GVS yeah that's true. Credit to him. Ironically i don't listen to the honest science guys much because science is boring lol. I listen to Lyle for the shit talking but then he starts talking about diet or something and I get bored

[@BoidsOfDoom]

Helms and Henselmans both do some good work in pushing back overextended claims. Helms also helped author a brutal critique of a paper by Israetel, Feather, et al., in the Journal of Strength and Conditioning. Nuckols is also good in dispelling weak science claims. There's folks doing the good work out there.

[@j86633]

@@BoidsOfDoom helms and nuckols are the only decent guys really. idk why greg is letting milo ruin stronger by science lol. like greg must know how lame he is.

[@pinoyaesthetics]

Wait, what protein issue?

[@GVS]

@@j86633 yes I find the Nuckols and Milo thing to be really fascinating, as Milo's platform on KZbin at least has already surpassed that of stronger by science (95kg vs 90k subs). Really says a lot about how sensationalist clickbait just flat out works. Hopefully Greg reels him in (no pun intended) but usually once someone gets those tasty algo dopamine hits it's really hard to stop.

[@samuelbuckner]

I have found Jeff well intentioned and willing to engage in a discussion. The PhD influencers however…..seem to be interested in using their PhD status to position their content as superior to all other content. I am director of a muscle growth research lab and am blocked in most the comment sections by the PhD influencer crowd. They want their positions and opinions to be accepted as truths.

[@j86633]

these guys are so pathetic honestly lol

[@atlaspowershrugged]

@@samuelbuckner me too. That's why I'm engaging with him in good faith! And I'm not surprised to hear that lol. What did they block you for?

[@samuelbuckner]

@@atlaspowershrugged in particular It was made so my comments on posts related to lengthened partials didn’t show up for folks. This happened for myself and other researchers in the hypertrophy space who attempted to bring balance to the conversation. I spoke about it on a recent podcast I did on revive stronger. It’s amazing though….so many of these PhD influencers want to control the narrative.

[@zerrodefex]

I remember Bromley going into the lions den with three of those PhDfluencers and pretty much all they did was lord their credentials over him.

[@j86633]

@@samuelbuckner imagine putting all your money on lengthened partials instead of just being nuanced about training.

[@MovementbyDavid]

This really clarifies your stance on this topic. This format is so much better than shorts. I’ve been enjoying these conversations.

[@KIKKO6595]

He basically used the easiest arguments to discuss, completely avoiding the ones that are actually the most controversial. Among these are the fixation on lengthened training (ik your take that they probably don’t use a full range of motion and they are posers, but i mean you’re not bashing shortened training, they are), their inability to acknowledge the inherent limitations of studies, and how they exploit science for marketing purposes with clickbait and grifter tactics. TLDR Milo sucks

[@stack4229]

I remember during milo and NH's debate, milo went ( jokingly ) "I'm bigger than you so I'm right" and I still don't know how he's bigger

[@kamo7293]

honestly where did this milo idiot come from. never heard of him until that whole stupidity with Natural hypertrophy and powerbuilding

[@weakest_serb]

​@@stack4229 I remember that too. It was very awkward TBH. Didn't even understand what he was going on about, as he sounded like he did believe he is bigger than NH, but he isn't even half his size.

[@tommymecousinlostmecar4165]

@@weakest_serb To be fair, he's also a bit taller than NH, so naturally more lanky, but yeah, he is not at NH's size lol.

[@anonymousman4419]

​@@stack4229 He basically SDed by saying that. Besides, NH didn't need to be bigger to win that debate

[@freakied0550]

Of all the things you could take heat for, speaking out against Liverking wouldn't have been remotely close to being one of my top guesses.

[@atlaspowershrugged]

That was where I got my first dedicated haters from! Some of them are still around!

[@cant_Comment]

@@atlaspowershrugged i had friends unfriend me because of liver king. im not really against what liver king talks about: eating meat, getting sunlight and exercise, in fact i agree with him. its just when i criticize him his fans lose their cool and get over defensive. liver king fans remind me of greg doucete fans. it was like a cult back in the day

[@BobCarolgees-p8f]

​@@atlaspowershruggedlol Liverking has gone straight off the deep end

[@UncommonSense]

Putting an end to science tomfoolery one power shrug at a time

[@JustDoof12]

His response to the Bugez screaming about Jeff putting the kneeling 1 arm pull down above the BB row was pure bullshit.

[@VanvanVan777]

Of course 😂

[@toowild6628]

No it wasn’t

[@g__l7217]

do think u wasn’t telling the truth when he said that he originally meant it’s the best at building the lats

[@dominikepicki1595]

Yeah, he said he didn't mean that it will build more muscle than the bb row. What is the purpose of ranking the excersises then if the S-tier one isn't more effective than the B-tier one?

[@VanvanVan777]

@dominikepicki1595 Tier lists are the 2020s Top 10s, it's basically bs but generates clicks.

[@tommymecousinlostmecar4165]

FazLifts is right about them, especially when he says they have lifting amnesia were they all happen to forget what got them big in the first place, and promote shit that they probably weren't doing before.

[@HappyHuman89]

A very vocal group of bro-scientists

[@atlaspowershrugged]

imblyingn any of them are big.

[@MindfulMovementPractice]

12:50 Pretty weird take. If a child has a point, you'd ignore it because it's a child? You underestimate what children can sometimes see that adults miss. As someone that has worked in an elementary school I have seen many instances of teachers misinterpreting stories and older kids help them interpret the story better, not seeing some error they made and get called out by kids, etc, etc... Now in this case obviously you're right but that's a weird opinion to have.

[@j86633]

i mean she's also not a child, she's an adult who just graduated from college with a relevant degree. i think she's wrong too but that whole part of the video was cringe honestly.

[@red_barbarian99]

It’s called an ad hominem

[@HUGEFLYINGWHALE]

I thought the same

[@dessertstorm7476]

@@j86633 she was just on Jonathan Warren's channel and talked about how people disregard her on account of being young and a female too. I also don't really get her point on this though, she seemed to either backpeddle or clarify her position to a degree that made it generic advice. Which is fine, we all mispeak at times and its worse if you double down.

[@FloridaManGraham]

I agree. I like the entire video except for that part.

[@JayvinWilliams-r5j]

its not jeffs responsibility to police anything. that's a ridiculous thing to ask him considering that there's so much content and just because they say "evidence-based" it doesn't mean they are really science based. also lets be aware that people like mike from rp did call out joel seedman, a definite liar and snake oil salemans, and it wasn't received well. people who already knew he was wrong were happy but everyone else thought mike was bullying joel. so its not as easy as calling them out. what actually needs to happen is a widespread education of the population by responsible PhD holders who aren't liars, which I see in rp, wolfing coaching and dr pak. rp in particular is very very widespread on yt rn and a lot of people are learning the principles. personally in context I've learned everything ik about lifting from rp and I've seen a lot of "anti science videos" and I've never seen any sort of refutation that actually applies to rp. even the silly soleman and lyle stuff is just out of context or very minor and old stuff. so rp is a source of information I feel it is doing good to actually stop people from believing silly nonsense on the internet.

[@iulianbirladeanu8680]

There was a video with Mike and Jeff training arms. Jeff did some triceps extension to failure, Mike adds "Nah, dude.. u had 5 more. Trust me, if u knew how to really lock in, u d really get 5 more" I just felt sorry for Jeff, seems like he allows being pushed arround by charlatans too much. Its dissapointing seeing Jeff like that

[@atlaspowershrugged]

I agree. Dude needs to throw his weight around a little

[@j86633]

i can't stand mike but he was obviously joking around with jeff in that instance. more embarrassing was his take on RIR in that video lol.

[@weakest_serb]

TBH he did stand up to Mike more than I thought he would. He was basically like: "Oh, I had 5 more. Let's see then." And did another set to through failure and got exactly the same number of reps as on the last set. Meaning he was at failure in the first set too.

[@thorthewolf8801]

​@@weakest_serbwouldnt that mean his first set wasn't till failure? If it was, he would have gotten less reps

[@dessertstorm7476]

Mike pushes other people 10x harder than he pushes himself. Which is just basic personal trainer shit tbh. Anyone can make you do a million slow reps with tiny weight and get totally gassed out.

[@zarante5640]

I left a pretty lengthy comment on Warren’s video with her but I have to call out 12:14 for being a dumb take. She is not a child, nor is it ridiculous that she “dares to have an opinion,” the problem with science communication is not people speaking out of turn, but precisely people speaking with no critical engagement. I disagree with her points but I can see how she structured her argument and everyone that has put the time into lifting has a right to have an opinion. To attack her instead of the point is an ad hominem, something that Lyle McDonald has consistently reported to be a tactic of the science-based lifters/Israetel. Nippard is probably not even much older than her and theyre degrees are probably pretty equivalent. Engage with the argument, Atlas, don’t get salty. Edit: 22:00, are you yourself not a bully for calling the other grown adult in this debate on bulking a child and dismissing her claims?

[@BuJammy]

Do you like trains a lot, by any chance?

[@atlaspowershrugged]

@@BuJammy I have to keep reminding myself that I got the "underachieving in school adrenaline junkie" sides of high-t but a lot of other people got the liking trains side of high t lol.

[@WiecznieNieNasycony]

talking to that Science based Influencers it's like having a discussion with a cattle about whether it is a cattle or not of course cattle will not be aware of the fact that it is a cattle because perceiving reality from the perspective of cattle is impossible to understand from the perspective of cattle transfered to human reality

[@Bromm412]

nfluencers are all fake all for money

[@HappyHuman89]

@@WiecznieNieNasycony wyborna metafora, kamracie :)

[@stud_end123]

GVS being adressed as some randome bro is really funny to me 😂

[@Egoliftdaily]

Science-based lifting ❌ Science-based grifting ✅

[@atlaspowershrugged]

We should start ego grifting

[@Egoliftdaily]

@atlaspowershrugged yep 😂🤣😂

[@m00nkiid]

Would love to see you interview Lyle McDonald. Policing his own (the science-based crowd) is exacrtly why he got ostracized from the science-based cult.

[@atlaspowershrugged]

I would too, lol

[@venkatvallabhaneni1227]

I don’t think thats the only reason, he’s also a little bit crazy

[@anonymousman4419]

​@@venkatvallabhaneni1227 We should be able to dissociate what's being said from who says it. However, it's natural that we can't always do it.

[@Fullflexno]

@@venkatvallabhaneni1227 He also is right. If that matters

[@venkatvallabhaneni1227]

​@@Fullflexno That's true, I do agree with a lot of his criticisms, but I'm just saying that if he said the same things he said, but had more decorum about the way he said them, I don't think he would be ostracised as heavily as he is now.

[@mattis8205]

100% agree. Mike Isratel has the gift of the gab. Fooled me for quite a while, probably because of the algorithm and mostly watching his lectures or comedy stuff, not debates.

[@atlaspowershrugged]

Unfortunately that gift doesn't come with an exchange receipt

[@PhysicalDelineation]

It's pretty revealing that Jeff cited actual studies to support his claim about slower muscle eccentrics, whereas Mike didn't provide any citations for his claim about slow eccentrics causing less injury, or them enhancing the mind-muscle connection, or an enhanced mind-muscle connection causing substantial benefits for some lifters. Not that "don't let the weights free fall drop on you" is something I consider controversial, but if Mike is a scientist, the burden of providing clear scientific evidence for his claims is on him. They tried to overplay it by displaying it like a spontaneous call thing where you wouldn't have all papers on hand for any claim you make, but this was a scripted, pre-recorded video. Mike should have provided evidence for his claims and Jeff should not have featured him as anything resembling a voice of authority if he can't provide citations. Mike getting this special treatment is anti-science and as you correctly said, Jeff is complicit, especially if he keeps featuring him on his channel.

[@atlaspowershrugged]

That's why I'm treating him as a serious person and hoping he'll distance himself from unserious people.

[@cant_Comment]

mike israetel, the guy who thinks cereal is preferable over meat. the guy who doesnt even know what a calorie is. the guy who thinks training to failure is bad. the guy who thinks fatiguing exercises are bad. he is NOT AN EXPERT. a guy who gets so many things wrong is not an authority. the fact hes such a failure in bodybuilding shows his methods are mostly wrong. hes more an oompa loompa than an expert

[@B-A-G123]

Glad people are waking up to Mike’s grift

[@Volker-t3m]

I´m a complete Beginner. (But have some background knowledge from my profession in the medical field) Watched multiple "Beginner videos" by Mike. In every video he suggests different combinations of bulking and cutting in your first year, which I found a little strange. Then I watched his "Bulk vs. Cut" video, in which he says: "Beginners don´t need cuts and bulks for a few years!".... Yeah, after 4 videos I found out he completely contradicts himself and doesn´t have a clue what he is talking about even on a beginner level. He just talks random BS to get views.

[@BobCarolgees-p8f]

​@@B-A-G123i think its in his nature 😅 lol

[@weakest_serb]

​@@fel1x335Jason was way funnier

[@locomike102]

I'm convinced that Mike is so focused on fatigue because he has never been even close to being cardiovascular "fit" and that is the limitation of his training and recovery. He is constantly downplaying any benefit of cardio beyond walking on the treadmill. Also, I haven't seen him cite a study in at least two years, probably because he's the smartest guy on the planet about all things exercise, science, biomechanics, human biology, and pharmacology.

[@afterzanzibar]

Just improved my Speechcraft +10 watching this.

[@atlaspowershrugged]

Easier than playing the minigame with your weapon out

[@Abdo.R.Mohamed]

Mike now feels like Athlean X , just claiming to "Put the science back in the Strength" without actually backing it up with any real science or logic but just because he's a PT and uses a marker and have a skeleton demonstrate over ..... well that means he's 100% right , Mike nowadays basically doing the same BS . (man i miss the Curlean X channel golden age or debunking the living F out of Athlean X haha good old days)

[@atlaspowershrugged]

Good comparison.

[@AnthonyBolognese710]

As a guy from a hard lab science background, I agree with you. These clowns have zero idea how to read and analyze a scientific paper and the scientific papers for sports science are mostly absolute nonsense in study construction /cohort design.

[@PS-bh3zp]

Totally agree. Rule of thumb: if someone has to declare they are “data driven” or “science based” is usually too dumb to interpret, analyze and incorporate the info properly

[@AnthonyBolognese710]

@ that’s a good rule of thumb

[@aeroecars]

Hard agree. I'm a STEM graduate myself, so I've read my fair share of papers over the years. So many people don't realize that just because a single paper states something, doesn't mean it's definitive. There needs to be a LOT more research done on the topic before anything can be "proven". Half of the time these "science based" grifters link a paper, they don't bother to read it beyond the abstract. Vast majority of them have extremely poor testing methodologies, skewed data points, and missing common sense.

[@llamasmeowing2061]

I don't think Jeff was being dishonest but I do think he didn't understand the actual reasons people are annoyed with "science based" lifters

[@gregorammann7147]

@@llamasmeowing2061 yeah maybe, but I think he is well aware of the stuff Mike and colleagues put out there. I think in his video he is more concerned about defending his (rather reasonable) interpretation of science based lifting and he defends bs talkers as a side product.

[@captainobscurity491]

I think he understands those reasons he just didn't seem ready to actually confront them. Probably out of fear of starting beef.

[@llamasmeowing2061]

@@captainobscurity491 fair enough

[@viklifts-zk8bl]

Mike stops a set at supposedly 0 RIR, the guy tells him "I can do more" and then gets 8 MORE. That's how skewed his perception of failure is

[@atlaspowershrugged]

Chris Duffin is a legend that was hilarious

[@mohf5]

Science based lifting has completely deteriorated into a combination of reaction videos and useless tier lists. Not much science left to be found on most of those channels

[@TheLawnCareNut]

Excellent points thank you! This rift in the lifting/fitness community is fascinating. What's funny, is that in the lawn care niche where I play, we have the EXACT same arguments. I treat my lawn like an experiment. I throw everything at it to juice it up (nitrogen) and make it grow faster faster and thicker and thicker and when you look at my lawn, it's dominant. It's visibly greener than all other lawns around me. In fact, I work hard to make mine stand out against everyone else. I've termed it "dominating the neighbors." On the opposite side of lawn care are those who spend all day reading university research on turfgrass. They claim I'm a scammer and that only the science matters. There is even one phd (former) professor who makes videos trying to take me down. It's hilarious and parallels this beef perfectly.

[@kgc0609]

I kinda feel bad for Jeff, especially him still feeling the need to defend Mike Isratel's "experty" even after he talked completely ridiculous stuffs (12 RIR, rows hitting the longhead of triceps a ton, too much lower back pump after cable curls...) that would align with neither of exercise science nor common sense. But it is part of his karma for branding himself as "The Science-based guy" in the platform.

[@HappyHuman89]

Do we really think the tide is turning? I mean Mike's a joke and a fraud but he's at over 3M subs if I recall correctly, which sadly is a different stratosphere vs creators like GVS or Fazlifts... I hope you're right, though.

[@atlaspowershrugged]

Joel Seedman has a million subscribers, no one listens to him

[@dessertstorm7476]

its funny how the science based crowd all go in hard on athleanX because he's way out on his own doing his own thing and not in their gang, but won't dare to criticise Dr. mike's constant bullshit. Very tribal shit going on

[@atlaspowershrugged]

@@dessertstorm7476 tribal indeed

[@BasementBodybuilding]

Great video. Jeff popularized lifting science communication on social media, and as you pointed out, people are exploiting that route. It's short sighted by Jeff to give them a pass right now, because in the long run as bigger and bigger channels start calling it out, Jeff's reputation will take a hit with the rest.

[@atlaspowershrugged]

Yeah, that ball has already started rolling. I definitely anticipate Mike crashing out hard as the criticism intensifies, people like that don't tend to just disappear quietly. For his own good, he should distance himself, but we'll see.

[@BonytoBeastly]

I think Renaissance Periodization is more of a bro-based channel. You could lump them in with the science-based crowd because he has a PhD, was a prof, and brings on the science-based guys (like Nippard, Helms, Wolf, Pak, etc) but most of his advice seems to come from the perspective of him being an expert, having a bunch of training experience, being smart and logical, and being a big and muscular steroid bodybuilder dude. He often goes against the scientific consensus on a topic and doesn't cite research. Most science-based communities (like the MASS and SBS communities) don't consider him part of the community. They very frequently get frustrated by him and his fans. It was a big drama in those communities until the people mentioning him got downvoted or teased to the point where they left. The science-based guys often debunk him. Helms recently commented on the protein thing, as you mentioned. Jeff confronted him on the slow eccentrics stuff. Greg Nuckols and Eric Trexler debated him about the p-ratio stuff. If he does count as being science-based, the other science-based guys do call him out. Milo, especially now that he's part of SBS, is definitely within the science-based community, though.

[@andrewmueller9986]

MIlo is a part of the SBS? I stopped watching his videos after only about 4 of them. His interpretation of studies (and the discernment of what a well designed study is/is not in the first place) seems neither intellectually rigorous nor honest. He doesn't talk much about context or statistical significance. What was the sample size? He seem to just cite the methodology/what was done, and the results, as if any/every study yields a grand truth. I love your channel Shane. I hope you don't hold Milo in high regard because I'd be quite disappointed if so. I get the vibe from him that he is 100% after money/channel growth.

[@BonytoBeastly]

@@andrewmueller9986 Thank you, Andrew! I get that impression from Milo also. I hold Greg Nuckols in high regard, though, and he chose to hire Milo, so maybe that impression is misleading. I'm not sure. The recent protein video I made argues directly against Milo's protein claims. Not sure if you saw that one. I might make another one going through Milo's recent bulking video. I think it suffers from what you've noticed: it's so rushed that if you take the time to think about his points, they don't make any sense.

[@matejmotuz108]

Another nobody clickbaiting with Jeff Nippard

[@Emertx7]

It is so weird to have watched this situation with Mike play out over the years. During the rise of Greg Doucette it seemed like Mike was a decent guy and knew some stuff and also wasn't as dogmatic but then we get to this place where he is more akin to someone like Vegan Gains and thinks he is the smartest most capable person ever but just like VG when it's actually time to prove what he can do he always somehow falls short. Really wonder what else we will see come from this new wave in the fitness space as we see more pushback on what science even is in the scope of training.

[@pouihurmen]

Where has Richard fallen short? Genuinely curious cause I haven’t been following him for years

[@Emertx7]

@ I stopped following him for a bit myself but essentially that clip of Mike saying all those things to that guy about being better and stronger and more jacked was like standard vegan gains dialogue and gave me a ton of flashbacks to his stuff. But the other association that came to mind when comparing Mike to Richard is that Mike has always fallen short of his pro card he’s failed to meet the standards for the competition even though he is making a lot of claims about training. We’ve seen his posts of what he’s eating on instagram and that’s wild on its own. But then vegan gains has always been saying how strong he is and then suddenly he has a new injury every time he’s about to make some new PR or what have you.

[@briefcasemanx]

This is just weird. It's not Jeff's job to call out people you don't like, sorry. This is you reaching and creating drama in order to have something to create content about--the same thing you're apparently upset about. I'll reiterate it a second time. Jeff is not under any obligation to call people out. His channel is not about calling people. If you want your channel to be about calling people out, fine, you do you.

[@brianlamptey4823]

22:44 look at the weight there... also, what happened to slow and controlled eccentrics?

[@atlaspowershrugged]

Eeeuhhh! Eeeeeuuuuuuuuuuuhhhh!

[@j86633]

yeah it's funny he fully admits to never doing that in his own training. the lame "science-based" training sessions they put out on RP are just pointless torture sessions.

[@NemanjaNislija]

​@@j86633The RP training videos are the worst: "X tries our leg workout; gets ruined/pukes!" I don't care who you are, a 15 year old can yell at you to do one more and add an arbitrary amount of extra sets and exercises, and you'd get fried. It's counterproductive and its not how Mike 7 Reps in Reserve normally trains.

[@j86633]

@@NemanjaNislija it's so unwatchable. like yeah mike i can "wreck your quads" with a bunch of pointless bodyweight squats. you're not gonna grow from it though. this from the guy more or less made popular stimulus: fatigue ratio, really makes no sense

[@TheComedyButchers]

I saw Dr. Milo put out a KZbin Short a bit ago where he said that a single arm cable reverse fly was better than face pulls. How do you throw out the baby with the bath water like that?! Facepulls are for external rotation first, & he just completely disregards that!

[@AustinNotARealCoach]

I tried the sloowww eccentrics for 6 months, literally saw NO growth in the my muscles or strength, of course I'm just one case but man it was sad.

[@HappyHuman89]

Yes, I've seen this in several instances.

[@showtime1235]

in his video jeff pulls from a few studies that show super slow ecc caused the same muscle growth as a controlled ecc which is funny bec in the past he’s shown studies that show much more growth in super slow ecc at the edge of the day i enjoy the slow ecc and think it’s valid in certain exercises but controlling the negative is just as efficient

[@zerrodefex]

I remember someone asking Hersovyac about them in one of his videos and he responded that he doesn't use them and doesn't know anyone else who does either.

[@MiguelGaray-mm7ce]

The only real benefit I see to slow eccentrics is consistency and reduction of momentum reliance. If your normal speed reps are consistent and without momentum, there’s no benefit to doing them slower on the eccentric.

[@emanuelpignat7002]

Jeff doesn't attack others

[@atlaspowershrugged]

Well he'd better start because Winter is Coming.

[@j86633]

the idea that he would be "attacking" them if he just actually challenged what they say instead of just rolling over because they have degrees is part of the problem

[@adamrobbins4683]

🤡

[@atlaspowershrugged]

@@j86633 that too

[@red_barbarian99]

I want something to explain to me how tf Mike is more of an expert than the multi time Olympia winners he critiques, because if his methods were as good as he says then he’d have at least won ONE show. “bUt hE mAKes tHE sCiEncE EaSy tO uNDerStanD” is the current excuse for his misinformation and I don’t know what he’s done for these people (aside from keeping them small) that gets this kind of loyalty out of them

[@oleksandrfedoriv]

you don’t have to have personally won bodybuilding shows for your advice to be good

[@red_barbarian99]

@ sure, but wouldn’t you rather learn from someone with actual experience and accomplishments in the field their giving you advice on?

[@atlaspowershrugged]

@@oleksandrfedoriv You don't have to win Mr. Olympia, but if you choose to compete, you probably shouldn't be terrible at it.

[@Hets_Mot_Folkgrupp]

Science based lifters are under attack? Press the attack i say.

[@atlaspowershrugged]

WAAAAAAAGGH!

[@DoomCookie]

A channel solely dedicated to critiquing all those supposedly science based influencers and their claims could be a goldmine for someone with the proper credentials (MSc. + in exercise science & decent physique/strength). Nothing generates clicks like drama. People love that shit. And on top of that the content basically writes itself.

[@atlaspowershrugged]

@@DoomCookie i doubt it. That's basically Lyle.

[@withindarkness]

Gotta love how they all willfully ignore the fact that noone is against science...they are against poorly done, poorly interpreted, poorly applied science which when used practically only achieves 2 things: more likes and views for the influencers, and more wasted time for the rest of us. I guarantee that if we were to do a study on people who binge Jeff Nippard and RP vs those who watch Atlas or Bugenhagen et al, we would find the "anti-science" channels far more anabolic.

[@Abdo.R.Mohamed]

To be fair to Jeff as well , honestly the amount of BS on KZbin Fitness or god forbid TikTok or Instagram is WAY too much to call out honestly , u would be better off promoting the actual good stuff instead of pointing out all the bad (which to be fair also he does both) but without "personalizing" it to the specific individual but the idea itself of what to do or what not to do .

[@atlaspowershrugged]

Nah, c'mon he knows who these people are, its not like they're flying under the radar.

[@goblinguard4833]

I think Jeff is the one guy in the science based space who is self aware and taktful enough to maybe take this advice and do something useful with it

[@Solomon_Nelson]

Great analysis.

[@HUGEFLYINGWHALE]

This last year i started training pretty seriously and bulked. I got from around 75kg to 90 with i would guess around 20% bodyfat. I think i look cool and literally everyone in my life noticed the change. Random people ask me where do i train and if im a gym coach or something. I was and still am pretty pleased with the change, however my last blood test from about 3 weeks ago is maybe the worst i ever had. 240 cholesterol and 166 LDL (though 62 HDL and 58 triglycerides which is cool), elevated liver enzymes and extremely high iron. These things were NOWHERE near this high before gym. Glucose is borderline but its been that way before gym. This could be unrelated but its hard to believe as my body changed drastically. My bulk mainly consisted of 1 protein scoop, like 400g chicken every noon, 4 eggs at a time, 2 glasses of milk, cottage in bread, many burgers and pizzas and occasional ice creams and sweet shit. Since the results i drop junk food, milk and sweets, and eat more fish and fruits and doing a bit more cardio. And 2 eggs instead of 4 at a time. Still lifting hard not missing a day and consuming at least 160g protein. I am losing weight right now. Edit: just realized this is just about bulk and not really about the video. Hope someone would find this interesting.

[@paulromanitan6031]

Good stuff bro keep up the grind!

[@backnine1542]

Hey Atlas, I don’t know if you’ll see this comment, but I still feel the need to say thank you. I found you recently as a plateaued intermediate as I’ve been looking into some new exercises I want to include in my 2025 training. You have educated me on stretch-based training that differs from the scientific pov.

[@atlaspowershrugged]

I'm glad to hear it! Hope the plateau stays in the past!

[@tmmm8578]

I love how fitness KZbin has devolved into a soap opera of people whining and arguing against strawmen instead of each other

[@Sonic_1000]

Imagine Dr. Mike's physique natty. Maaannn

[@atlaspowershrugged]

Yikes

[@onerider808]

It just wouldn’t be scientific until I considered what Eric Bugenhagen has to say about this.

[@Gurkenklemme]

I must admit, I approached this video with a certain bias, having followed Jeff's content for a long time. However, I believe your perspective is entirely valid. While I’ve always respected advice from figures like Dr. Mike and Mylo, Dr. Mike, in particular, has made some rather peculiar claims in recent months-both within and beyond the realm of exercise science-that prompted me to scrutinize his assertions more closely. In summary, he often tends to dramatize findings or displays undue confidence in certain claims that the literature does not robustly support. Although this tendency might not seem directly relevant to exercise science, he frequently discusses psychology on various podcasts and channels. As this happens to be my area of expertise, I’ve noticed occasions where he seemingly fabricates figures or percentages, presenting them with such conviction that most listeners likely won’t bother verifying the details. That said, I don’t believe his advice is without merit. However, these tendencies have encouraged me to adopt a more critical perspective toward claims like “highly deep stretching is the single most important factor for gains.” Critiquing such statements, far from being an attack on science-based training, is, in fact, an affirmation of genuine scientific principles. After all, true science rarely speaks in absolutes and avoids portraying any singular method as the definitive "holy grail" that one must follow to remain “scientific.”

[@hanslenk9603]

Fully this. It has also be said in Dr. Mikes defense that, sometimes, he is fully aware of some of his shortcomings. Other times not at all. Lots of comments here attacked him for not training hard enough and well, as it turns out, Israetel says himself all the time that he just can't be bothered to train that hard. Other times, he is far less self-reflected. One thing that can however be said unequivocally is that he isn't a great source for information, he's entertainment. Doesn't cite his sources, contradicts himself at times and also, realistically, he just makes videos in order to make videos so that the algorithm is pleased. If there's a thing you can learn from him it's propably how to do business. He's quite funny though and that is what I watch him for, and there are some things he can give decent overviews for that you don't find compiled that way elsewhere, but he's not even near the likes of Jeff Nippard in terms of credibility

[@Gurkenklemme]

@hanslenk9603 agreed 👍

[@gregorammann7147]

It is kinda strange that you say the science lifting community does not correct dishonest and bad science communication, when in fact the first to call out Milo Wolf were Menno and Eric Helms (parts of which you even show in this video).

[@gregorammann7147]

Also I feel it's a bit unfair to call out Jeff for foul discussion techniques (which I am not convinced he partakes in, but maybe that's debatable), when your response to that girl is just an ad hominem because she is a teenager, even though there are plenty of good arguments against her extremely stupid take.

[@j86633]

@@gregorammann7147 i honestly wonder if he was doing that as a joke i actually can't tell 😂

[@gregorammann7147]

@@j86633 not sure but if that's the case I missed it haha

[@TAL20013]

Them calling out doesn't make a difference though, you've still got the science guys pushing the lengthened biased, lat pull, lengthening, flying forearm over extension lengthened, lengthened, lengthened shit. Unfortunately that's what most people are taking away. And because Milo AND Mike are saying "science" they push it as fact, they say they don't but they do, it's not like helms or menno who have a more nuanced approach. Like if you were to do one singular row for the rest of your life, it would be a barbell row, for overall back development, the rows the best of the best, but the science guys don't say that, they say "it's difficult to set up, takes a long time, you dont get a stretch, it's this it's that, instead you should do this super lengthening, stretch lengthened stretch and then at the end say, we've done five studies with multiple issues but take it as fact because science.

[@atlaspowershrugged]

Menno deserves to be in this video too for some of his horrible instagram posts, which I've critiqued on there, but the video didn't need to be any longer. Helms deserves credit though sure, but because he actually sticks to the facts, I don't think that many people are actually hearing him.

[@TK-en2hq]

I got to celebrate christmas with my 3 year old nephew and it was great.

[@atlaspowershrugged]

@@TK-en2hq kids are awesome. They were just riding their scooters around singing about how they loved everyone today

[@anonymousman4419]

Jeff does have a lot moment where he displays intellectual dishonesty. For example, making videos titled "Steroids are awesome" and "How much mucle you can build with or without steroids" isn't probably a net positive for the natural lifting community. NH summed it up well when he said that Jeff Nippard is not a saint (I'm not quoting NH verbatim here). I don't think Jeff will call out the (sorry excuse of) Science-Based grifters. He gives off the vibe of someone who couldn't care less about the truth.

[@111kino]

And claiming most of how he built his physique was through science based lifting and imo, him being natty when he competed in BOTH bodybuilding and powerlifting at the same time while walking around like a juiced up midget. He also does a lot of camera tricks to make himself look bigger by removing objects of references from the area and the obvious one that this video didn't even bring up, hes cozy with the known grifters(at least and especially his own admittance of Mike Israetel) and will use his own reputation to buttress theirs as they will in turn. Its all just a clique at the end of the day, itd be nice if people ever realize that. Jeff plays the role of the agreeable easy to push around well meaning nerd to shield his fellow more obviously sloppy grifters from criticism and they all share the pot at the end of the day cuz only average people lose out.

[@smebbo6435]

I think he really cares, but unfortunately missed the point. Arguing on behalf of the actual point would land him on the losing side though, so it is possible he misunderstood purposefully or strawmanned the safe bets.

[@111kino]

@smebbo6435 the fact that there's a supposed losing and winning side is part of the issue. Very clique ish

[@smebbo6435]

@111kino I just called it like that because it is apparent the science based crew is not one coherent "front". Such divided front can't win because it isn't even a front.

[@111kino]

@@smebbo6435 i disagree but I get what you mean.

[@HeyyyJude]

You could be Mr Beast’s jacked alter ego 💪🏽

[@atlaspowershrugged]

Why does everyone keep saying that. I don't look like a sketchy groundhog

[@JLX1373]

could you do a video on how to do neck training safely?

[@showtime1235]

this

[@haellm9192]

Perform heaviest zercher holds known to man

[@kurjategija]

Grow a pair.

[@atlaspowershrugged]

I can, but spoiler, it's gonna be just start with really light weight and use a higher rep range than you would on most exercises. It'd be hard to stretch that out honestly.

[@breene27]

One thing I have noticed about Jeff is many time he equate "smart training" with "evidence based training" which are not the same thing. "Smart training" seems to be whatever works for you to make steady progress year to year, but does not inherently need to be "evidence based".

[@TheGudeGym]

Scienticsnitch looks like the “know it all” girl in school that doesn’t know much and is extremely confident in that lack of knowledge

[@drdooof4]

she acts like that too

[@zerrodefex]

Especially when they resort to word salad, it's one of their main methods of fooling dumb people into thinking that they're smart.

[@drdooof4]

@@zerrodefex yup, they keep acting like if you can't explain some mechanisms in great detail (including things that haven't been fully discovered) then everything you say is complete bs, even though they can't explain it/understand it themselves

[@j86633]

this is kind of my problem with her and her bf lol they just think they're the smartest people in the room because "mechanisms," - they are the next milos and dr mikes in training, just with different takes.

[@Winterascent]

I thought science based fitness was PED use.

[@atlaspowershrugged]

Better living through chemistry

[@Mr.j101-cws]

Fantastic post, I enjoy science -based lifting to a good extent, ( it made me explore biomechanics, and the offical terms of geenral movement of the body i.e I didn't know what the transversal plane was, which I'm greatful for. However, there are some cons like you said such as wild claims such as " leg extensions are bad movement", because it doesn't empahsize the stretch. Also , another bold claim such as "pullups and barbell rows " are not mass builders becuase of instability( ofc motor unit recuritment will not be maximized 100% which i agree, however this claim is still inaccurate. Alot, of these things that are trending in the "science based" community lacks nuanced, and or just disgenous such as you're a science based lifter because you train hard. etc.

[@thisusedtobeme]

People do not typically regulate their own sub groups of society. Of course, in Soviet Russia and the U.S. in the 1960s many people used to inform on each other. Leave Nippard alone it isn't his job to police other people.

[@aaronsantiago2609]

Sounds like a hater. Iv learned alot for jeff.. none from u

[@BodyweightMuscle]

Great vid 👌🏼

[@carlosolivares6969]

One of the worst things is that Mike has weak credentials so speak specifically on hyper trophy training itself . His phd is on exercise physiology, which is a loosely related field . He’s not Brad shoenfeld or Bret Contreras , Mike is just a science communicator who is just as likely to cherry pick studies as Milo does . Somehow the fitness community has put Mike on a pedestal to speak on all things fitness related

[@zerrodefex]

Yep his doctorate is not even in the field that he's talking about. It's not too unlike those other health channels where they call themselves "doctor" giving health advice and if you look into their details they're actually a doctor of chiropracty.

[@MohamedNaas2005]

Hey there Mr.Shrugs, assuming someone works up slowly, what's a good "strength standard" for Jefferson curls (with good form and all)

[@atlaspowershrugged]

That's the thing, good form is one thing, but how good is your range with good form? That's just as important. A super deep j curl with straight legs and a not so deep j curl with 225 kinda showcase two different though. We're still figuring it out!

[@Ironborne]

Everything is individual. As long as you’re improving every session you’re becoming stronger.

[@ProfessorX117]

I do wish we saw more debates just all around. There is too much agreeableness on all sides.

[@atlaspowershrugged]

@ProfessorX117 i hate to say "i agree" in this context, but i agree

[@FitnessSheriff]

Nippard: "Science-Based" Isratel: "Exercise Scientist Critiques" Athlean-X: "Based on Science" Ryan Humiston: "Science Backed" All have cornered their own search term algorithm to get more views on videos to get more ad revenue to channel. I've done a full deep dive audit on Nippard's content(last 330 uploads): 98.7% bodybuilding/strength advice (so, nothing at all athletic or 'functional') even though in his latest poll to viewers only 16% wanted a 'bodybuilding' physique, 61% wanted lean/athletic....his content is 85% upper body (shirtless flexing thumbnails - click click click), had to get through 160 uploads before I counted 25 lower body focused videos. Athlean-X (biggest KZbin channel is even worse - 93% !!! of all of his videos are upper body only (..abs, chest, arms...) So, yeah, they are click chasing for sure and using the 'science' term to guide the helpless confused beginners towards them - or this content would be well better balanced. *exhales*.

[@lucasrfma]

Yeah, the issue is even bigger than just not calling BS out. Jeff keeps doing collabs with Mike, and they are absurd. I mean, he collabed in that video against use of steroids...but Mike's part in that video ended up being a big ass steroid propaganda lol. Also, in this latest "science under attack" video, he calls Mike to ask about the "slow slow slow slow" thing, Mike just says "Yeah, I don't believe that and don't train like that", and Jeff just goes "ok, fair". What? Where's the "If you don't train like that and you don't believe it why are you spreading that BS?"

[@kamshik]

Actually, exactly the anecdotal "bro lore" part of jeff's videos is kinda difficult to watch, since he talks about "feeling this exercise more" and such and then procedes to evaluate the exercise "objectively" based on that.

[@Skygooose]

If science based training is so potent, you'd think in the next 10 years we'd have a Mr Olympia emerge who trains just like the RP bros suggest and that person would be unbeatable for years.

[@Enhanced-Atrophy]

Only deep stretch, slow eccentrics, high reps and cyborg technique bro

[@Tjwheat903]

It seems to me your true character is unfolding before us. The sunglasses, dirty cop mustache and lawful good alignment showcases that you've embraced your destiny as the police officer the fitness industry has never wanted but always needed.

[@atlaspowershrugged]

I'll take it lol.

[@laegu5430]

Quick Atlas what's a good rep range for power shrugs, trying them out next month 🙏 ?

[@atlaspowershrugged]

8-20

[@laegu5430]

@@atlaspowershrugged Bet 🫡

[@idiramara1]

thumbnail got me wheezing

[@atlaspowershrugged]

Finally, I've cracked the algorithm.

[@baronmeduse]

To be fair Jeff did push back on his video calling up Israetel and questioning him about slow negatives. And it's obvious he was taken aback by Israetel lying that his negatives recommendation is average 2 seconds, when we've all seen him getting people to do them for 3-5 seconds in his 'coaching' sessions. He just bailed out of contradicting him.

[@RonaldRumRaisin]

Atlas, saying someone can't be right because they're 14 is very science based of you- shame on you.

[@atlaspowershrugged]

Her brain hasn't myelinated yet

[@KingKalifor]

I lost any respect for him when he kept pushing th CV. Even when it was shown not to do what it was said to do. He never retracted his statements on those of us who didn't want to get it.

[@atlaspowershrugged]

That's fair. Lot of guilt to go around on that one.

[@jf8138]

I hate how much I have a friend who refuses to take these things with a grain of salt. He keeps telling me how Huberman has said that testosterone boosts 400% and bull, like that. Yet when I ask him to show examples of people using these techniques, in a measurable way, he can't. And he refuses to believe anything that says his beliefs are not so good. I hate arguing with him because he needs the motivation, but it annoys the absolute piss out of me how much he relies on placebo effects.

[@atlaspowershrugged]

I hate how many young guys are taken in by that stuff. Its a shame.

[@superprototo]

exactly how i've been feeling watching his videos

[@michaelmathisen6157]

Be honest. Jeff has an average natural physique. He looks like any 18 year old boy who plays high school sports. He certainly doesn't look good.

[@cjhotsaucethebridger]

I don’t think Mike is dishonest, just egotistical which he has admitted to. I still think he is a positive force tho, but it’s mixed… in many ways similar to Andrew Tate.

[@atlaspowershrugged]

So he lies to himself first so he doesn't have to lie to anyone else

[@SeriousSam101]

I guess the first guy skipped leg day...

[@fazzolarijames]

Great video 👍

[@atlaspowershrugged]

Thanks!

[@dannydavis1224]

The more someone claims to have any easy answer, the less I trust them. Science is messy, so real scientists can't answer without equivocating, disclaimers, and qualifications. I like science because I'm nerdy, but at most it gives me an idea to go actually try myself.

[@atlaspowershrugged]

That's exactly the point of "science based" lifting. To give people who lack a sense of self efficacy confidence that some simplistic easy program will actually work.

[@HOORAY4BOOTAY5]

What do you think the biggest lifters, lift the heaviest weights, there and there? Connect the clues.

[@prostagma6055]

I mean you have no idea how correct you are he literally changed the video title and thumbnail from something like valid criticism of "science based lifting" to a much more clickbaity title

[@atlaspowershrugged]

I didn't catch it that early lol

[@brianlamptey4823]

As someone who's 20lbs into his own bulk pulling up higher and jumping further than before, yeah she was on some bullshit.

[@rainycypher1761]

Yeah the increase in bodyweight is basically progressive overload

[@lightsfury_nord]

Science based crap. Training hard is the forgotten science.

[@ReesKenny-bp7lc]

Are the noble nattys going to youtube war?

[@atlaspowershrugged]

@@ReesKenny-bp7lc i mean we could. I'm down.

[@BuJammy]

Atlas is ready to go to the mattresses on this.

[@DawkinsTools]

Did you just call GVS 'some random bro' haha

[@atlaspowershrugged]

@@DawkinsTools with big arms

[@thegoldfish123]

Very based take APS

[@yian43]

Your 2 year old is awesome!

[@atlaspowershrugged]

She is

[@kingmalak321]

Yo, Please stop using the work "Science" like this lol

[@gustavovalverde6226]

Yeah

[@Damian_Materowski]

I think main problems of science based lifting are...Mike Israetel and his RP, Milo Wolf (extremely annoying...) and Pack. Why? Because their science based approach seems to be much, much foo far overcomplicating everything and after all - not so proven to work (well, Mike can't even manage proper conditioning on stage... - what a joke as a "guru"). I like Mike actually, I follow him since his beginning actually, but you need to know to be a bit suspicious and not so blindly trusting when listening what him/they say/s. Mike was wrong many, many times and he's too arrogant to admit he's wrong. Dude said he's more inteligent than any other coach. It's red flag when somebody says such words. On the other hand I "love" science guys like Eric Helms and guys from 3DMJ, Trexler, Greg Nuckols - they manage to find that balance between researches, science and what may be not so evidence based but somehow it fu*ing works. They are humble and likeable. Jeff has not really science background but tries to be as much scientific as possible and he's nice, kind kid - I can't not to like him, but fortunately after over 15 years of gathering my own knowledge from dozens of sources - I kinda know how to asses what is useful for me, what will not work for me. Problem is, that there is so many people who blindly believe in everything what their gurus say and there are horrible, charlatans gurus (like Liver Kings) and quite good ones as Mike, but still not infallible and you can do most of your gains much more simply, you don't have to be PhD. It's not rocket science guys ;)

[@HappyHuman89]

@@Damian_Materowski there is a lot of money to be made on "gym stuff" and nothing would be particularly wrong about it, if those guys weren't being dishonest for their own good while pushing their phds down everyone's throat

[@AverageMojaveMailman]

Science based lifting? More liek science based griefting!

[@anotherjewishsharpnicholas9425]

It's much worse than you say. Jeff is much worse.

[@michamazur6854]

Great video

[@jf8138]

You calling out a child for having an opinion, then you saying a Dr. isn't a good source. Hypocrisy within, right here.

[@whitemakesright2177]

I have no respect for "science based" influencers, because the studies they cite are trash. Small sample sizes, short durations, and poor controls.