Scoring for Brass

[@abluelark]

Professional Trumpet player and composer here. My biggest advice to any composer is to not forget that Brass and Woodwind players need to breathe often. No, we can't circular breathe everything. If you want your scores to sound and play more realistically, add in places to breathe. Brass players need frequent rest as well. Use Brass sparingly or else your performers will get fatigued easily. Even just a measure or two of rest helps get the blood back into the lips. As far as multiple tongue techniques, there's only double (ta-ka) and triple tonguing (ta-ta-ka). If you are writing sheet music, you do not need to tell performers what type of tonguing to use...we'll figure it out. It's common to have multiple double or triple tongues in a row. Another last thing that didn't get mentioned in this video is how to phrase well. Brass musicians have difficulty playing phrases with lots of skips or arpeggiated notes...we're not violinists! Don't ask us to play notes on opposite sides of our register back to back. And definitely don't ask us to play high pitched notes at a soft volume. There are some other considerations to take into account, but these are the mistakes I see most often.

[@ThinkSpaceEducation]

All bang on advice

[@AdrianVeale]

Absolutely agree Austin! A few additional thoughts below. Use your trumpets (and brass generally) sparingly; if everything is special, nothing is. I always think of the ending of the Firebird Suite as the perfect length of trumpet and brass endurance for a professional. It adds brilliance and gravity, and is taxing for even the best trumpet players, but it isn't unreasonable. I've been seeing film scores come through recently with 3-4 pages (2-3 minutes) of long tones gradually getting higher that means I'm knackered before I get to the hardest parts. I also try to remember that we work best when we lead up to something that may sit enharmonically or even just high on the register. Asking brass players to start a big proud entry on a high or tonally dissonant entry, is setting itself up for failure, particularly in a sight-reading situation. French Horns often get stuck with these difficult entries and it's even more tough! Lastly, try to keep your individual players to ranges they've been working in through out the piece. Asking a tutti brass player that's been playing Ravel's Bolero ostinato for a few minutes at loud volume and then asking for a soft high and delicate entry now leading the section is sure to strike fear in even the most accomplished players.

[@wagnerbertolino2]

Yes!!!

[@contemplativecomposer5983]

Absolutely. It is this very fact that has me strongly considering a breath controller. Watching a composer the other day, who showed he was using the controller to play in brass and woodwinds. I have been reading about woodwinds in depth, along with digging out my Irish Flute to understand breaths and pauses. I don't envy woodwind players at all 😂

[@jvcouk]

Knowing this, I get 'fatigue' listening to pieces that don't breathe.

[@TraneFrancks]

Guy, I just want to say a massive thanks for all the videos you provide here. I finally got up the nerve to offer my services and today sold my very first composition to a game developer. Your videos have been key in me figuring out how to write better music. Thank you!

[@chrismoule7242]

Excellent - well done!

[@MikJames-d1g]

It's been an honor watching you work over the years. Got far more value out of your videos and music theory course than some "masterclasses" I could mention...

[@antonekholm2634]

Hans zimmer? 😂

[@GaelPucci]

Just started the video and didn't even watch it yet but I just want to say that it is always a Huge pleasure to see you on my youtube algorithm. In advance, thank you for sharing the course with us. You make me smile and make me learn something every time I watch one of your videos. Take care of you and greetings from my studio. 🎶🎻

[@juergenaverbeck7617]

Meanwhile I found myself with a huge list of short courses already bought and studied, also the bootcamp which was a real kicker for me and my understanding of orchestrial composing. Beside this I still enjoy your Videos on YT and feel very grateful for your service you offer. I really appreciate it and that doesn't express how much. Thank you!

[@General_Tekk]

purchased the writing for video games course and got tasked with some brass work right off the bat. this certainly helps, thnx!!!

[@ThinkSpaceEducation]

Great!

[@wagnerbertolino2]

16:14 _"Sometimes the samples don't_ crescendo _enough"_ At least in Logic Pro X, you have to draw in on the *expression* and the *modulation* modes as well.

[@Cchogan]

Sound engineer here. The first trick with recording brass sections is to find which pub they escaped to. I found locking them in was a useful tactic. A long time ago, I recorded the Duncan Lamont orchestra using the Advision Mobile. Duncan had written a Sherlock Holmes suit. On the night, he employed Spike Milligan to narrate. That is a story in itself! The concert was held at the Porter Tun room at the Brewery in Chiswell Street London. It is not a normal concert venue, so the orchestra was set up on a stage at one end where there was a long bar. The bar was closed. Spike's first comment when he walked out onto the stage was, ""Which idiot puts brass players in front of the bar! We'll be lucky if they make it to the second chorus." All that aside, this is a really good tutorial!

[@NoName-dr8wt]

😂🤣

[@ZayaMillis]

I love this video, I have a hard time balancing the orchestra and picking the right instruments for all of the different parts. Thank you for being so generous with your knowledge.

[@ErikLankinMusic]

Your verbalized 'internal' monologue reminds me so much of my own (though I'm meaner). I didn't know I was so bad until my partner recorded me from outside my office and sent me a voice memo of me arguing with myself about a harmony. Now even though I notice I'm doing it, it's incredibly difficult to stop!

[@chrismoule7242]

26:33 - thank you - my thought as soon as you played it in, especially given the previous bar.

[@nicholaswheeler1311]

Absolutely fantastic as always. There’s always something new to learn. These tips are so helpful. If this is even just the tiniest hint of what there is to discover on the PMC, then I simply can’t wait.

[@Thaddarwin]

I’m starting the PMC next week…!!!

[@nicholaswheeler1311]

@@Thaddarwin Haha! Amazing! I’m sure we’ll therefore meet at some point during IW!

[@raymondspagnuolo8222]

Very helpful. Thank you for posting.

[@NoName-dr8wt]

❤ Love your teaching.

[@mickimarbhmusic]

Excellent as always Guy exactly what I needed for a remix of a very old song using BCCSO ahoi from Hamburg 🙌

[@Dave-nm8uk]

Perhaps only a small point here, but for.a horn in F, if not using a DAW and a piano roll, the useful range as mentioned would actually appear to the player as from G above middle C to the G the octave above. So the little horn phrase would likely appear as G, D sharp, D natural, C, B, C, G. Whether it's worth knowing about transposing for use with a DAW is an interesting question. The same phrase for a B flat trumpet would appear as D, A sharp, A natural, G, F sharp, G, D. Maybe DAW users always use concert note pitches for scores - but I don't think that's always the case. An added complication is that often horn music is written as if in C, with accidentals written in - for historical reasons perhaps. The particular phrase would be shown in G - with a one sharp key signature - if written for other instruments in F, but for horns there is often no key signature shown. The same phrase written for a B flat trumpet would appear as if in D, with two sharps. Does this make a difference? Maybe not much, but maybe helpful to know. I hope I got this right. If not, I'll delete or edit this comment later. I play instruments, but not brass ones, so feel free to shoot this down.

[@pjdahmen]

Thank you for the good Tutorial! 👍🙏

[@Mopsie]

This was great! I would love to see more of these in depth sessions

[@Harrysound]

This is really helpful. I’m just making a template based on your basic idea in another video. Seems to be working well. The thing about trombone sizes and use are new to me and as I set up my template I can hear it sounding more authentic.

[@michaeltablet8577]

Thank you for being such a great inspiration!

[@phaeraofficial]

Excellent as always!

[@Stoneeeeemo]

Thanks, guy! great insight into your courses. might just enroll myself yet 👁

[@joegrint6280]

Thanks Guy - very useful!

[@aaax9410]

This is amasing thanks Guy :)

[@ArtmanBass]

Thanks Guy! Great as always. Doesn't BBC Trumpets include multitongue samples?

[@barbasmusica4367]

Yes it does, don’t know why he didn’t use it.

[@Pax30001]

Awesome!

[@music_creator_capable]

Really great!

[@wkelly-hn4kb]

One must think about breath control as well ...I heard some one else writing for brass with lots of bursts ..and then lonnnnng notes. I'm a very rangy singer with diaphragm control..but we gotta breathe.

[@jmurray2018]

Your initial brass crescendo cuts in a little too sharply and suddenly. The additional use of multi marata really spices it up but I would violently and smoothly place in a two sets of da-da-da to (using your words) giving you a sense of a resolve Da-da-da,da-da-da. That old cliched cinematic answering phrase. Great little video. We’ll make a great composer out you yet Guy! Y’all no longer be a Rock star y’all be a at the top of the Compis-sphere - No Shades Needed! 😎

[@cinematic_monkey]

You need attitude check, mate.

[@jmurray2018]

@@cinematic_monkey And you need to know the humorous context in which it is written to my long beloved Composer before making such comments. Don’t read the end of a book until you’ve read the beginning and so on! And before you try any kind of reading read your own commentary and try and figure out why you’re deleting your own inadequacies towards attitude. Have a lovely day and thanks for taking the time to reply and despite your misgivings I think your still cwl and make meaningful contributions to our awesome channel and thanks for helping the algorithms - we appreciate you 🤗

[@danielstephenson7558]

5:05 Castrol GTX!!! My days it's been an age since I heard that!

[@ThinkSpaceEducation]

You got it!

[@joegrint6280]

AKA Mahler's 7th Symphony 🙂

[@terrymccreesh7527]

Hints of John Barry - Space March (one of my favourites.)

[@martijnvanbeek4387]

Interesting to see how difficult it is to write / program brass parts! With answering I thought you meant question and answer. I expected different instruments, e.g. a brass part, answered by trumpet, trombone etc.

[@Thaddarwin]

Reminded me of the Black Magic adverts around the 7.00 mark…!!

[@soundtreks]

Trombones sound great in their upper range. Mahler and Bartok especially took advantage of their capabilities. But I'm biased as I played trombone for over a decade when I was younger. So I write for low brass a lot more than the normal composer would.

[@Charlie_Echo]

Great stuff, Guy, thanks. I think BBCSO has built-in multi-tongue articulations - is there a reason you didn't use those?

[@amotkram99]

Hey Guy, you need to learn how to use the brazier curve on the CC channels

[@jmurray2018]

Lolz I read the thumbnail as snoring thru Brass….. Is that possible? Can Brass send you into a comfortable cozy sleep?

[@ThinkSpaceEducation]

Actually soft brass is the most wonderful sound so yes!

[@mymasmith7848]

The right french horn piece, possibly

[@magicmulder]

Until the BRAAAAMS hit. 😂

[@jmurray2018]

lol I was thinking more along the lines of Yes Braass can be really cozy and soothing like Antonín Dvořák’s New World Symphony.

[@KevinrosenOfficial]

Hello guy! I recently downloaded your template for musio and i really love it thanks for makign free stuff like that, Do you consider making a template for eastwest aswell?

[@chrismoule7242]

19:15 and beyond: I am presuming that you are teaching people how to do multi-tonguing in a cross-library portable way, as BBC SO has multi-tonguing articulations built in.

[@ThinkSpaceEducation]

Yes the pre-recorded ones work most of the time but you dont have a whole lot of controlso sometimes this method comes out better

[@masterrenderer4338]

Thanks Guy! A question, is the new course for beginners eho have some music theory knowledge?

[@mr_don_key]

but dynamic range provided is library dependent, SPitfire is known for not going beyond F, most stick with at m-f for most brass. They like the edge of silence more than loudness. but if you take e.g. Cinematic studio brass, you do get loud recorded dynamics if you want too. Same for Modeling brass, synchron brass, modern scoring brass, angry brass, hollywood brass, etc etc..

[@ThinkSpaceEducation]

So true this is the hardest bit - every library is different some excel at fff whereas others are masters of mp- there is no one size fits all

[@Axxonal]

Amazing video ! How do you do the start of your composition with a small crescendo very quick ? I can’t see the track playing this region

[@ThinkSpaceEducation]

Not sure in this piece but normally I wold bounce a timp roll to audio and either time stretch it or fade it in quickly or both

[@marcelchristian5375]

Have you tried the trumpet from enjoy samples ?

[@terrymccreesh7527]

Are higher and lower register 'iffy' because it's a sample library or are they like that with real players too?

[@jvcouk]

They tend to thin out the sample variants, so one sample might cover more notes (which sounds physically wrong, because body resonances and environment will warp unnaturally), or there are fewer velocity layers, etc. It's mostly rationing effort in order to get the product out while pleasing most users, who won't usually want to strain the instrument at the extremes of playable range.

[@digitalpainting6781]

Hello, What is the brass library used in this video ?

[@ThinkSpaceEducation]

BBC Pro I think

[@digitalpainting6781]

@@ThinkSpaceEducation thx young man 😝

[@alleyway3215]

I like the sound of this cue, Guy! As for using brass, for newer writers (not me, but someone else, I'm sure:), I see many comments here speaking of less is more when it comes to brass. That is true. Yet, many have also proclaimed "John Williams! John Wiliams!" in all his glory. As many of us know, his music (and many other composers of his generation and beyond who have passed on) is encumbered with brass. I feel that as long as you get the samples and articulations to sound real enough and just as well playable for the players, then enjoy as much of a brassy sound as you like. Once in conservatory training, someone told me "there's so much brass in this." Then, they persisted so I encouraged her to reimagine the short piece with no brass, and she did days later. My answer was, "I like that version, too. Now, if we had a cue to attach this, then one of us might feel very different." In other words, context matters, heavily. I feel perhaps an underlying tone of encouragement for those that may fear writing for brass players. The fear is understandable. If it doesn't blend well, everyone will know it because, yes, brass players are loud. I should know seeing as though I studied trumpet for fifteen years. Given that, I relate to a boastful brassy sound when necessary. However, that's the key - knowing when to go for it. Either way, don't be afraid. Beyond the idiomatic nature and playability aspects, it comes down to preference. So, enjoy your brass writing!

[@robinthomsoncomposer]

You’re using Cubase for this when you could be using Dorico Pro?

[@alleyway3215]

I use both. Dorico is for the notation product. Cubase is for the sound product. I'm sure Steinberg intends this seeing as they make both:)

[@robinthomsoncomposer]

@@alleyway3215 I prefer to see the dots rather than the strips of colour. There is a DAW within Dorico and it is a sound product too as you can use any VST etc in it too

[@djuengst2000]

Geezs Guy, Do you have no love for the baritone? 😊

[@ericfalley]

BBCSO doesn't have Euphonium samples. My guess is that Guy is focused on orchestral writing, where the euphonium is sadly often left out.

[@NoName-dr8wt]

​@@ericfalley I started as a flute player. I'm now a vocalist and French horn player. I write orchestral music. One major principle I believe in is making parts for everyone, including those lesser known brass instruments. Fortunately, I've recently joined a college community band that just started, and they have most brass instruments. It's a firsthand privilege to be back in band again, where I can observe everyone's parts for my writing! 😊😊😊😊😊 Here here for those baritones and euphoniums!

[@javierestevez9680]

tuba and bass tbn play the same¿ i dont really use bass trombon

[@HOBBITSODYSSEY]

Hi Guy, your stereo field is reversed, the instruments on the right are on the left and vice versa. Kind regards.

[@ThinkSpaceEducation]

Ah..... thank god for headphones eh?

[@HOBBITSODYSSEY]

@@ThinkSpaceEducation ?

[@High-Tech-Geek]

What's a lead line?

[@LodvarDude]

I always thought "French Horns" was something lewd. Now I know better. It's the basses that are the dirty ones.

[@High-Tech-Geek]

I think your multi-tonguing is faster than humanly possible, lol!

[@jvcouk]

I've tried to create physically-modelled brass (and other orchestral parts) on a synth, just to get that dynamic range with timbre. In my experimentation, I was surprised to find the raspy timbre of hard blows is most effective from the trombones, rather than the bigger instruments. Example (jumps right in): kzbin.info/www/bejne/qWHCZGCVpp6Sh5I

[@grahamzebedee5525]

My head hurts...

[@jmurray2018]

I still find it weird that you call it a French horn!

[@taykitrleevitt4314]

Don't... referring to the French Horn as an Horn is like referring to a Stradavarius as just being a violin.

[@VambraceMusic]

@@taykitrleevitt4314 why isnt it called a german horn?