SCREAMING AT CHAT: Open World Games Are Ruining Everything

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[@apriljk6557]

That "I hate you I hate you" screech is the funniest thing Vaush does. It gets me everytime for some reason.

[@RagingRugbyst]

Because it's what you'd scream at your friends when they bring out that topic/memory that ruffles your brain in a the wrong ways and it's relatable amd genuine.

[@apriljk6557]

@@RagingRugbyst haha probably. I can't deny I've been there before.

[@FatalAlcatraz]

It's from his Jordan Peterson impersonation I believe.

[@hanzolo7719]

Vaush: “you adhd zoomers playing games while listening to podcasts” Cut to every Vaush debate while he’s playing a game in the background

[@CaH6633]

Yeah but to be fair Vaush usually plays good games in the background....like honestly most of the time.... Then there are the times where he plays Diablo but that hasn't happened in a while we can forget about that.

[@ni9274]

@@CaH6633 But that’s the same as playing a game while listening to something.

[@chopvansuey]

Didn't he do exactly that later in this very stream? Not 3 hours later he was listening to haz while playing subway surfers

[@Helltown66]

@@CaH6633 So nobody is allowed to enjoy games in their own way just listened to what vaush says and only play the games he and you assholes think is good. how about leave people the fuck alone!!

[@Gorgovoid173]

You can't tell me, that LISTENING to a debate is the same as DOING one yourself as you're playing a game...

[@theamaeve8175]

This is honestly why indie games like Hades, Celeste, and Hollow Knight are all so beloved. Their game play and narratives are unique and bring something new to video games even in their respective subgenres (roguelite, platformer, metroidvania)

[@lordlubu3029]

I love Hades and Hollow Knight, but I hate the narrative that AAA games are all soulless cash grabs and that all indie games are revolutionary game changers. For every Hades or Celeste there are thousands of garbage asset flips, copy-paste metroid-vania's, and bitcoin miners lol. Both indie and AAA games have tons of garbage and a few gems

[@theamaeve8175]

@@lordlubu3029 I mean ya I didn't say every indie game is gold. Just that it is where the gold is

[@TheShicksinator]

@@lordlubu3029 also horizon is pretty good and not copy paste Ubisoft trash. Most of the real rewards in the open world are through gameplay, the only pickups are crafting materials and health which are fucking everywhere so you don't have to seek them out.

[@lolusuck386]

@@lordlubu3029 no one is saying all indie games are automatically better than AAA. However, indie games are undeniably where the actual innovation is happening.

[@ffbotha]

@@lolusuck386 Always has been though. Even before indie games became a thing the place where most innovation was happening were the smaller scale experimental games that publishers were still funding (back in the PS1 and ,2 days). There's a reason we basically had a massive drought starting around the PS3 era until indies really found their footing in the mid to late 2010s. It's only in the last couple of years that I've started noticing what I'd call a critical mass of really high quality indie games starting to come out (and the resurgence of AA developers alongside them).

[@fjordojustice]

"How can you be a moral antirealist but also have strong opinions about art, isn't that authoritarian?" - smartest chatter

[@ComradeMaryFromMars]

Oh my God I thought KZbin comments were bad

[@WiloPolis03]

Online leftists frantically skimming through the works of Zizek and Kropotkin to determine their sandwich order

[@Lightwolf234]

Having strong opinions ain’t authoritarian. How can you be against authoritarians if you don’t have a strong opinion against them?

[@rosestrohm7986]

I feel like open world is becoming the "animated movie becoming live action" of gaming

[@Techyena]

This!!

[@joshtrue6521]

Especially the part where they kill the old way of making the art at the same time

[@QuartzIsAnOxide]

A lot of games nowadays have no reason to be open world other than it's what we've come to expect of AAA games. And I would argue many indie games have no business being roguelike also. It's just a dumb mechanic they tuck in to pad out the gameplay and have that magic keyword among the game tags. Ah yes, I'm going to make a procedurally generated game in the _souls_ genre, which is known for its careful level design and enemy placement.

[@Sqwivig]

TRUUUUUEEE!!!

[@WiloPolis03]

Bit of a tangent but animated movies have started to move away from that tbf. They've been experimenting with more colorful & pop-y animating with little splashes of 2D animation as of late. Post-Into the Spider-Verse animation has been looking pretty great. Imo a better comparison would be mobile games becoming the same monotonous incremental games with 5 ads every time a button is pressed, but that's just me being nitpicky

[@follower9698]

I love chat's almost biological obligation to get voosh worked up

[@Helltown66]

Nope vaush just upsets himself by listening and taking the chat seriously. Its because they challenge his narcissism

[@danieltobin4498]

@@Helltown66 Yea pretty much, at this point I’m convinced Vaush is a narcissist like Hasan.

[@eideticex]

As someone that grew up with games starting from the NES, it's been a wild ride. Went from games being strictly one genre to as Vaush points out every game trying to be every genre. The games really have become very samey, bland, and boring compared to the variety we used to see. It really began to take a downturn around 2008 due to the recession. A lot of game studios either died out or merged together, and none of them were ever the same again. While indie games have picked up the slack in a lot of ways, it's become so easy to make a game that we have a flood of crap tier games surrounding the gems to wade through.

[@zaczane]

And yet….all of those Amazing AA games we had in the mid to late 2000s are also gone 😭😭

[@WalkTuahthePolls]

I actually feel quite optimistic with the rise of the indie scene. There's junk, but we've got a lot of great games from small teams. Remember, most of these studios only established themselves at the tail end of the PS3/360 era or later. I could see some, like Moon (Ori) or Playdead (Limbo, Inside) growing into AA productions, while other new studios with smaller 2D games continue to pop up.

[@thevoid3010]

Yeah it seems like most innovative stuff is in undies because they don’t have as much monetary pressure to conform to market statistics and crap, trying to actually do something on its own terms. While far from perfect Id say Nintendo is still really innovative in many of its major releases (far less so unfortunately in others)

[@heman3141]

@@WalkTuahthePolls I agree. Hollow Knight, Terraria, Spelunky, Celeste, all of my very favorite games from the last decade have been indie for sure. And while AAA totally dropped the ball on first person shooters (I'm in the minority in disliking nu-DOOM I suppose) the indie "boomer-shooter" scene is a fucking renaissance of fps imo, ion fury and dusk are amazing, not to mention modders keeping quake and doom alive.

[@Alias_Anybody]

@@heman3141 What don't you like about modern Doom?

[@huntierier]

This Phenomen was popularised by Ubisoft Open world games like Assassin's Creed which had hundreds of Collectables (Flags, Codex pages). now they've found a way to keep extending this concept with Crafting materials, which can be spawned infinitely

[@Policyparagon]

See but the original 3/4 AC games were a linear open world game. The story was still completely linear, and the exploration was done to further the story. The exploration wasn't just filler (most of it anyway)

[@robrotron2084]

@@Policyparagon This is key, there's a difference between true Open World games and old school "collectathon" games like Donkey Kong 64, but a lot of modern "open world" games have become closer to "collectathons but with a really big hub world"

[@Alias_Anybody]

For me personally the appeal of the Far Cry games (FC3 and later) is specifically the fact that you can be a complete psychopath and basically shoot and or burn everything that moves. That, of course, still won't be fun forever (at some point the novelty wears off) and is usually more fun if you are overpowered, so therefore Blood Dragon was also the best one. Oh yeah, and it's also the one game without crafting. Just kill stuff.

[@kraio-sfu]

Actually Phenom is a brand of processor released by AMD, nice try liberal

[@Xaphnir]

Yeah, the original Assassin's Creed and the 3 with Ezio were pretty good and open world games weren't as dominant then so they felt more original. There were collectibles, but for the most part weren't excessive or were just for people that really wanted to be completionists. But then executives who view video games from a financial rather than an artistic perspective showed up, saw open worlds with hundreds of collectible doodads as a way to increase player retention, and started turning open worlds into the soulless husks we have now.

[@dendenra6038]

Vaush having a media take waaaaaay better than chat is not something I ever expected but here we are

[@sydny909]

Yeah I've never seen him talk about media for this long without taking monumental Ls. What a miracle

[@mr.orangeaide5260]

Has he ever had an L take about media? People meme on this but I need examples cos I've never came across it

[@fuucaran]

​@@mr.orangeaide5260vaush hates Minecraft. Yeah he has shit media takes.

[@savingark1528]

@@fuucaran I feel like minecraft is a game it is super understandable to hate. It is so open and broad I can completely understand not liking it. Vaush seems to enjoy curated, guided experiences and minecraft is as far from that as you can get

[@SunburnCity]

@@savingark1528 which is ironic because it probably shows he doesn't have the creative capacity to create his own imagined worlds or experiences if he can't take a limited sandbox "maker" game generate a unique emergent story/experience. Especially ironic as I am pretty sure Vaush plays D&D lol !!!VAUSH!!!! IF YOU ARE READING THIS PLEASE MAKE A D&D STREAM, I KNOW YOU CAN, IT WOULD BE GREAT, IF ONLY YOU TRY!!!

[@BigaloMax]

I think the problem of open world games is when the world being open and huge ads nothing to the experience and is just essentially filler . If you can guarantee that each corner of your world is at least hslf as engaging as most sidequest in majoras mask or at least make the world so beautiful that just exploring will engage you then good but if not then don't bother .

[@BleedForTheWorld]

Final Fantasy XV

[@ffbotha]

@@BleedForTheWorld Funnily enough, I think FFXV had a different problem. It needed a huge open world for the road trip aesthetic to work, but it also needed to players to stick to the road trip part of it. I view it as an example of an open world that was meant to be seen, not explored. The main problem is that if you're going to do something different to conventional norms you have to signpost it *really* well for players. Took me a while to realise that in FFXV if it's not next to a road, I'm probably only meant to look at it from afar and that made me enjoy the game a whole lot more. Or more specifically, there's something to be said for looking at a place and going "I could go there if I wanted" even if the game very much intends for you to never go there.

[@seangallagher9435]

I think perfect maps are more like a sandbox for you to mess around in if you don’t want to do the main story yet. Halo Infinite feels like this, they have conventional missions but all the side content is just optional stuff.

[@BleedForTheWorld]

@@ffbotha uh, if the game was designed better, it would be Final Fantasy Snap as in Pokemon Snap because that's exactly what you're making it sound like. And it's super ultra mega dumb. I mean, I freaking LOVED Pokemon Snap on N64 but what you're saying is also not completely true or else the giraffe enemies at the first area of the game wouldn't be interactable to begin with (the ones straight down the road from Cidney's garage). The problem with FFXV is that it went for this ultra realistic approach to overall world design but desperately failed to meet what we've come to see with others of its calibre like GTA V. The game is unfinished from day one, too. And that was super mega dumb.

[@lou9511]

​@@BleedForTheWorld L opinion

[@duskpede5146]

its insane that chat can even disagree with this. its the most basic, unarguable take ever. "video games should have less menial padding and focus on the core gameplay instead". how tf can you disagree with that???

[@Westlander857]

I love me some open world games, but they are very difficult and tedious to pull off, and only a very select few studios do it well. If a studio wants to make open world games, but doesn’t have much experience with it, then they should either start *very* small or hire some *very* seasoned talent from studios that have a track record of making great open world games. It’s not something you can just dive into.

[@leifcasanova3097]

Noted

[@BleedForTheWorld]

This is a very good point to make considering Final Fantasy XV was utter garbage with the open world mechanic. I genuinely cannot fathom how anyone can be head over heels for that one.

[@Alexander-nd5de]

Quite a niche that is done dirty. Have you tried the long dark? the single-player blends a great survival game that blends an open map with great single player story. I should check if its finished. Great game I would love to finish sometime!!

[@lolusuck386]

I don't even think most open world games do open worlds right. S.T.A.L.K.E.R. is the best open world game I've ever played and it's entirely because it's an actual world that is pseudo-simulated beyond what's on your screen. Quests will literally take care of themselves sometimes because wild mutants or bandits might get to someone before you even enter the section of the world it takes place in. No other open world game I've played has even attempted that.

[@dataexpunged93N15]

Oddly enough, I've only really had good experiences with open worlds in MMO games, and that's probably because there's other people players and NPCs that make it feel alive, as well as quests to have to do a certain thing in said game. Open world games as a whole, particularly for console games, seem to be way too ambitious, way too empty, and way too boring to be functional. Look at Security Breach for example- there's tons of unutilized places, areas will feel empty for obscene amounts of time, and the only way they really counteracted that was by placing security bots everywhere and letting the others teleport nearby when needed. That is not an open world, that is a shoe box with junk inside of it to vaguely make a map.

[@rosestrohm7986]

He says 2014 is where it starts but Skyrim has done irreparable damage to open world rpgs. The world is bland and full of cookie cutter dungeons and collectables and it's awful to navigate around. The gameplay loop is staring at your compass instead of looking at where you're going (mostly cause the map is fucking awful and doesnt tell you where roads and paths are) and you get to a camp with some bandits, or a cave with some wolves and maybe a necromancer. It's so boring and padded

[@kylebernadyn2465]

I understand the point he’s making but God of War (2018 & Ragnarök) is probably the worst example to use because while they used “the open world” they’re also super linear stories wherein every single side quest and action you take apart from the main story *actively and directly serves* the main story. 2018 GOW didn’t even feel like an open world because everything kept pointing me back to the main quest. That’s doing an open world concept well: I don’t lose sight of what the game’s about.

[@daryno9048]

I didn’t see them as open world games either, the world was semi open but it still felt linear

[@kylebernadyn2465]

@@daryno9048 Exactly, it felt like a perfect balance between the two, which makes sense given how they made like half-a-dozen titles prior to them that were linear and level-based.

[@RevolutionaryLoser]

I'm playing GoW right now and I couldnt agree more with Vaush. It's infuriating how much crafting there is and how 70% of the abilities are locked behind puzzle boxes and there is no way to know if you're going to find an ability that makes the game more fun or another crafting material before you spend 3 minutes unlocking a chest. Not to mention every area is full of chests that you can only open with an item you get 6 hours later. If they just took all that BS out and just have you the same stuff by killing a miniboss the game would be a perfect 10. The side missions are defendible. Mostly tedious but at least you aren't doing them to get more crafting materials.

[@butHomeisNowhere___]

100% agree

[@kylebernadyn2465]

@@RevolutionaryLoser Oh I’m not defending the Nornir puzzle chests or anything like that, I also can’t stand the idea of having to do a puzzle any time I want to simply progress through a new area (the Dwarven realm and its water obstacles, for instance). I also wasn’t a fan of you losing your abilities and weapon upgrades from game to game but they at least had an in-story explanation for it, i.e. Fimbulwinter.

[@shawnhenderson2091]

Yeah, I always have felt confounded by the group of people out there who think linearity in a game is a bad thing, some of the best stories in games are linearly told, when you get open world, more often than not, the crucial parts of the main story lose a lot of their luster. Its fun to lose yourself in open world games but nothing beats a great storyline...its incredibly rare to have both

[@ChucksSEADnDEAD]

Back then the criticism was against "corridor shooters" because stuff was straight up uninspired. I feel like there was a game of telephone and eventually people started complaining about linearity. I remember around 2009-2010 I was asking "guys we still like Half-Life, right? That's linear gameplay, right?".

[@LimeyLassen]

Chrono Trigger is a linear game with about 20 hours of content, but I got more like 100 hours out of it by just playing it over and over again. The game feels bigger than it actually is, which is a mark of its craftsmanship.

[@BleedForTheWorld]

It depends how much it costs as in real world money. 20 hours and it costs $60? AND there's a season pass for $15 more? Fk all that. I don't think so bro lol. Versus, 80+ and I know I'll enjoy it even as I pre order? Yes, please. Fingers crossed this is what Final Fantasy XVI is like and not...whatever Vaush the liberal is into, I won't even pretend to know how he does it.

[@LimeyLassen]

@@BleedForTheWorld People who are still doing preorders in the current era are a drain on the gene pool.

[@BleedForTheWorld]

@@LimeyLassen sounds white supremacist but OK

[@wumbojet]

The Yakuza / Like a Dragon series are the absolute best mix between linear narrative and open world games. The story is linear and great, but there's an insane amount of extra content that is very engaging, fun and different, most of them are just for fun, but some have benefits that are useful but not obligatory.

[@Chelaxim]

You just described the mass majority of JRPGs ever made. Like A Dragon didn't do anything new lol.

[@wumbojet]

@@Chelaxim you are so, so wrong

[@arskakarva7474]

Also of crucial importance is that the open world goes for detail rather than scale. Kamurocho is an extremely fleshed out location instead of empty distance like every Rockstar open world (and we don't even need to consider the barren nothingness that are Ubisoft open worlds). I could give street directions to someone in Kamurocho.

[@wumbojet]

@@arskakarva7474 which is insane because almost all the Yakuza towns are near perfect recreations of their real world counterpart

[@FafliXx]

@@arskakarva7474 The funny part is that even Ubisoft realized their open worlds suck, since with every new AC game they make it slightly better. Valhalla allows you to not show all the icons on the map. It doesn't even have random camps you need to complete for 100% anymore. And they changed how sidequests work. It's still a very flawed game, especially the open world is way too big, and some parts are legitimately just empty. If they just shrunk the map to like 1/5th of it's size and packed the content in there, it would be much better. But then their other open world games like Far Cry and Watch Dogs are the same as AC games from 2009. Unplayable.

[@DarkChaoticGamer]

I love how the chat was slowly driving him to madness.

[@SolracDude]

slowly?

[@OctyabrAprelya]

Through the years? Yes.

[@dumat100]

The only open worlds I like are RPGs. Other ones feel contradictory, like "You can do whatever you want! Except character creation, builds, crafting, lots of equipment, etc. But you can climb walls!"

[@that_one_MM]

What about metroidvanias that are basically semi-open-world like Hollow Knight, where you can basically access almost the entire game with the wall jump upgrade

[@LuisManuelLealDias]

what a terrible take

[@ChucksSEADnDEAD]

STALKER is a great open world. It feels so good despite the jank.

[@lolusuck386]

@@ChucksSEADnDEAD S.T.A.L.K.E.R. is a true open world. It exists beyond the player. If you left that game running and just sat in Rookie Village all day, NPCs will still be doing things and killing each other in the entire map. Any open world that isn't doing this is automatically worse for it.

[@lrose5522]

@@lolusuck386 Nah, that's not inherently better. Maybe more realistic but maybe I enjoy being able to explore slowly at my own pace more sometimes. It can be an interesting theme of the story, like how Pathologic limits how much you can do because time doesn't stop and you miss opportunities, but it's not inherently better

[@tomribei]

I feel like the Uncharted formula works for a single playthrough. The characters and story are interesting enough to keep you hooked for the 20-25 hour campaign, and the shooting is actually really solid. It truly feels like a movie in some instances, in a good way. I just never felt compelled enough to replay through the games on harder difficutlies, especially Crushing, which I think was a lazy difficulty spike.

[@adamsmasher9769]

Thats exactly why i prefer open world games. More replayability

[@hungrygremlin5151]

Yall out here replaying games? I don't even have time to play games once

[@tomribei]

@@hungrygremlin5151 I only play like 3 games a year, a 25 hour campaign isn't that long.

[@lolusuck386]

@@hungrygremlin5151 play shorter games lol

[@AccessDen]

​@@adamsmasher9769 If you want replayability you should try sandbox games like Terraria or Minecraft, or maybe rougelikes are also a good candidate.

[@ChrisLeeW00]

I'm a fan of Toby Fox, his games really are a great example of how the gameplay can serve the narrative.

[@vfanon]

I kind of hate whenever people start bitching about trends in video games because it always turns out they’re exclusively talking about AAA shit. Dude, just stop buying their shit and help out some actually decent game designers… you don’t even have to stop playing their games to stop paying them!

[@4swordsluver]

​@@vfanon Let's all love Lain ❤️

[@pancakes8670]

Toby Fox is the king of this shit. That man demolishes not only the 4th wall, but the other 3 ones too.

[@joshtrue6521]

​@@vfanon it'd be kinda nice to have a good game not limited to a studio of 1-15 and a budget of $12. They do exist, triple AAA can be good, it's the incomprehensible amount of time, resources, and people being essentially used to make a really well polished hollow pile of shit that's frustrating. Especially the human misery aspect. It's not just "I don't want to play bad games" it's "I don't want a giant machine of artless capital ruining the medium I care about"

[@ChrisLeeW00]

@@joshtrue6521 This reminds me of the LGR video about the history of Electronic Arts, they started out giving credit to their team, full photographs of them posing in the manual, etc. They seemed to resemble a worker cooperative in some ways, but over the years it has become a worse place to work now that it’s controlled by profit-maximizing practices. It’s a story we see time and again with companies, where they get bought by investors and eventually lose sight of what got them popular in the first place. I studied software engineering but decided not to go into game design due to the demand it would place on me. The only options I could find at the time were go my own way at great personal expense, or sell my soul to a company that sees me as expendable.

[@thespelsheepington6664]

THANK YOU. I swear it feels like there's so many people that are like "Everything has to be an open world game!" Linear experiences are great, too!

[@minhocho5487]

Unless there is a specific point to an open world, most games are much better being linear.

[@luvdisneyv]

Would Watch Dogs 1 count as open world then? You do have a linear kinda game in an open world environment.

[@chaserseven2886]

Like who?

[@qfjd]

Literally never heard anyone say that before

[@Sashitoge]

This "all games should be open world" discourse died down like a decade ago, Ubisoft open world games have been the most popular-to-hate games for a while now, in what universe do you guys live in

[@maxgoshko4628]

I feel like I agree with Vaush, but that's assuming he's talking about what I believe he is. I completely agree that there are games that pad out their gameplay loop with mind numbing bs, such as horizon or assassin's creed; but I do think that the open world genre is fun when it makes the "wandering around the map" parts genuinely enjoyable. A good example here would be red dead 2 or ghost of tsushima, both games have a lot of map exploration and side quest type content, but the thing is most of it is optional, and when it isn't, its super fun anyway. Those games would not nearly have been as good if they were not open world.

[@curvingfyre6810]

This. Voosh is having a media take again. He has a minute yet valid point and then, ironically, *pads it out* with quadrupling down and vitriol.

[@GolemRising]

This. Breath of the Wild has a ton of places to explore and things to find, but it never once feels stale or repetitive. Every new encounter was a fun puzzle you could solve in a dozen different ways and just about any good idea you came up with would likely work. Hell even Skyrim, for all its many other flaws, made exploring genuinely fun (assuming you could stand the combat). Almost every new place you found was more than just a dot on a map, it had its own mini-story and rewards. Thats whats rewarding in open world games, the thrill of discovery. I feel like Voosh is just not the kind of gamer that really appreciates that.

[@schtreg9140]

Absolutely this. Red dead redemption is a great example. I can't get over the fact that he hates on the TES and fallout series. While having issues design-wise, they are the complete opposite if what he was describing. With New Vegas he even admitted it himself but made a really dumb point. Wtf does he mean the writers saved a broken system? What kind of collectables are there in Oblivion, Skyrim or Fallout? Never in my life have I felt those games were stretching out content with repetitive and boring map exploration. They fill the map with quests and in all of those games I explored the map mainly as a side consequence of often very unique quests. Granted Oblivion and Fallout 3 do this better than newer games of the series, but still.

[@TheShicksinator]

Also I didn't think horizon was that fillery, nor some of the early ACs. Like Black flag almost everything you do in the open world is fun as hell and contributes to your progression.

[@ianhruday9584]

​@@TheShicksinator the original Horizon game had some filler, but HFW was much better and the side quests in the expansion to the original were fantastic. HFW got a bad rap for things it wasn't necessarily guilty of, simply because it came out at the same time as Elden Ring. HFW has its problems, e.g. a broken melee system and lazy rewards for exploration (you found some green shine), but it really annoys me when people accuse it of having bad side quests.

[@deadfr0g]

Vaush is freely conflating different types of shallow non-content and barely-content, but he is IMMEASURABLY bang-on correct about the virtually worthless nature of padding and filler. LONG RANT WARNING BECAUSE I’VE THOUGHT ABOUT THIS FOR YEEEAARS: When you delve too far into specifics, the conversation quickly becomes muddy because of everyone has different thresholds and different levels of appreciation for these kinds of things, but if you zoom out enough to account for reasonable margins of subjectivity, the phenomenon (along with the modern trend) is absolutely crystal clear. There are so many wonderful things to experience in life. Many of them are not video games. Nobody needs to be a video game player if they like other things. Furthermore, if you choose to play video games, there is no right or wrong way for you to do it, so long as you feel you are enjoying or being enriched sufficiently by the time (and money) you put into them. ***HOWEVER,*** as a staunch believer in the power of video games as a medium of both entertainment and art, there is no nerd topic on this Earth that drives me up the walls more than how people _who unironically self-identify as “gamers”_ will essentially argue that the highest form of engagement that video games can aspire to is light escapism. How can you call something your hobby and respect it so little??! Extra Credits coined the term “abnegation” to describe this type of engagement, and it’s a perfectly fine facet of compelling game design, but in terms of the breadth and richness of human experience, this is the least ambitious and least profound thing that a video game can attempt to do. Games are capable of so much more than that! The possibility space of computer-driven interactive audiovisual experiences is so much more than that. Accepting that this form of abnegation is the pinnacle of video games is categorically surrendering and squandering essentially the entire potential of what video games can be. A good video games can/should/will(!) give you something positive and meaningful that you’ll carry with you for your whole life. I think that’s a pretty fair way to valuate a very intentional pastime: Is this giving you something you’ll appreciate for years to come? Generally you do need to spend some amount of time with a game to see if the answer is yes, but whenever you feel like the answer is no, honestly, for your own sake, get the f*** out!! You’re not a weak person for getting ensnared; the video game industry continues to spend unfathomable amounts of money on deeply unethical psychological research for how they can more efficiently affect and manipulate player behaviours. You ARE being weak if you try and live in denial of the fact that this stuff is happening. You ARE being weak if you find yourself ensnared and you lie to yourself for months and years that you’re not ensnared. ((Sidenote: I’m not going to delve into monetization here, but I’ll just say that everything I’m saying here is especially true now that we live in a time where 1) there are more ways to access more games at a lower cost than ever before, and also 2) there are more games trying to siphon more money from their players than ever before.)) If you’re playing video games just to kill time, then you could definitionally be doing better things with your time, no matter how you value your time. If you’re using video games as an opiate to numb your feelings-and I mean this with all empathy, sincerely-then you are not mentally or emotionally well right now, and you deserve help. And actually, that’s kind of the point in both cases here: you deserve better! There is room in life for trivial amusements, and there is definitely a place for healthy self-care and self-soothing and (seriously) coping strategies during difficult times… but fundamentally, when we’re talking about prolonged periods of time, plain and simple, you deserve better. Inside and outside of the game, you deserve better. Mediocre video games are at best a bandage on a bad life situation, and at worst the product of carefully-engineered psychologically predatory design. Sometimes mediocre games are the result of hard-working designers aiming for the moon and being beaten back down by corporate overlords or the brutal realities of unchecked capitalism. Sometimes mediocre games are simply the result of perfectly clever and noble design intentions that failed to fully coalesce together and hit their mark. (Making games is really hard!) And yet, regardless, in all aspects of everything described above, YOU DESERVE BETTER. (Just want to note that I’m specifically using the term “mediocre” here because they’re so obviously not holistically bad; they’re just holistically lacklustre.) I won’t tell anyone how they should spend their leisure time, but if you choose to play video games and you care about your limited time on this earth, I would strongly encourage you to hold the games you try to high standards. I strongly encourage you to stop settling for mediocre video games that don’t respect your intelligence or your time.

[@ni9274]

If a game is fun to play and don’t ask you for money it’s usually not a mediocre game. + Most people don’t have great project for their life, it’s not a big deal if we waste time playing video games.

[@dannyeckerd9324]

​@@ni9274 it isn't that some people don't have big lifelong projects it's that nobody does. life is filled with tiny little miniature projects that follow you along the way. Personally I play video games in between those projects. I think you're not taking away the right meaning from this, he's not saying that you should go find some lifelong project instead of playing video games he's saying that you should hold your video games up to the same standards and the same quality as you would one of those projects instead of just accepting mediocrity and using whatever you can get your hands on to numb the pain like some kind of digital opioid.

[@NegitoroIsBestShip]

"The days that you spend are the years that you spend is the life that you have" Might be the best banger Vaush has ever spit.

[@daryno9048]

I have played both Uncharted and TLoU series but they didn’t feel samey at all. I think it’s fair to say Uncharted is something of a shooting gallery but TLoU gameplay felt more stress inducing as you are trying to fight off the AI while conversing ammo and resources, not to mention you rely more on stealth as well.

[@otto_jk]

Uncharted 2 is legit a top 5 PS3 game, it's so well paced

[@daryno9048]

@@otto_jk I love them too but the shooting mechanic are a little average

[@talk9552]

I like what Zelda twilight princess did, where the story is linear and you start smaller but the map gradually opens up to you and you can backtrack, get items you couldn't get before, explore new and old areas in depth, etc. The linear aotry didnt stop you from wanting to explore yet at the same time kept you following the path. It feels like a good balance, even though its not an open world, it feels open and expansive enough. The map wasnt big but it felt big and it felt epic. Also, skyrim.....a fav of mine, not too sure what this community thinks, but imo a great example of how to do open world. The combat is shit, ok, but everywhere you go there's something new to explore. What works for me seems to be open world, or semi-openish like with twilight princess, with linear parts such as dungeons (which was missing a lot from breath of the wild!) The open world doesnt feel to expansive, and you have to go look for the dungeons or quests, which is more entertaining and interesting to engage with than collectibles, etc.

[@schtreg9140]

A lot of nintendo games did this and I love that as well. The first Metroid Prime was another great example of this.

[@coolfool183]

Played Links awakening on the switch recently. Not a perfect game, but such a breath of fresh air when compared to the other triple AAA chores released recently. It’s nice for the same reason you outlined here. The map is linked with the gameplay, where your relationship to it changes over time: hookshot, jumping feather, bombs, etc. Demolished the whole game in a week because I was so enthralled

[@masterplusmargarita]

You seem to just be describing the Zelda formula (pre-BOTW), at least. The series has always been about slowly expanding large maps dotted with meaningful content designed to become meaningful as you unlock new gear.

[@arowace498]

Sorry but backtracking in Zelda games isn't that interesting. It's just: oh another 100 rupees for my full wallet. Thanks I guess.......

[@talk9552]

@@arowace498 sorry but that wasn't really the point

[@briannoel7398]

Open-world isn't too bad. The problem is open-narrative: In Legend of Zelda Wind Waker, the world was semi-open by restricting areas whose part of the story you hadn't unlocked yet, allowing you both the freedom to explore, as well as a linear narrative that would build and develop organically. Breath of the wild was open-world and open-narrative in the sense that you could complete most aspects of the story in any order, meaning the story couldn't build on itself in any meaningful way, which made the story (if you can even say that it had one) pretty stale. Open-world isn't bad inherently, but its design can lead to a pretty unfulfilling story, especially since the main quests were both optional and relatively uninfluential in the greater scope of the game.

[@yologogo5441]

For Horizon, the thing is that you don't really find grinding materials from exploring, you get them from fighting robots. And this implies finding the best ways to get your materials from them, often without killing them. And THAT is gameplay so it's consistent with your definition of what makes the game good.

[@blasianking4827]

I don't have a particular problem with open world games but god damn does it feel annoying to be faced with such an expansive world that i inevitable feel like I have to spend hours scouring every corner of.

[@lor108avi]

I’ve been unironically having these gaming takes since 2017. I’m so glad I’m not alone 😂 Edit: Deus Ex and System Shock 2 are amazing. Immersive Sims and Metroidvanias are literally when the gameplay itself is taken seriously as an art from by the devs.

[@fionaskittle]

Every time someone mentions Deus Ex, someone reinstalls it. Too late for me, I reinstalled it last week!

[@creecher1118]

Vaush is right on this. Open world games aren't inherently bad so long as the game is best served by an open world approach. The problem is that a lot of games aren't better as open worlds or even semi open worlds, and a lot of the collectibles and currencies are only there to pad it out. Some players will argue they're fine with that because they paid $60 so they want hours and hours of gameplay, but I personally don't care about quantity as much as quality. If a game is better with 10 hours of fluff cut then I'd rather see those elements removed. I feel like the devs respect my time and intelligence if they have the decency to do that. Too many AAA games offer nonstop gameplay loops or theoretically endless content and you can't possibly play them all. The pressure to log in every day and get every log in bonus and complete every daily, weekly, or monthly challenge is nauseating. I'd much rather play games like Doom or Resident Evil than modern Ubisoft games. I can have my fun with them then move onto the next game or show or movie or whatever I want to do with my time.

[@robrotron2084]

Many modern "open world" games think they're Skyrim but they're actually just Donkey Kong 64

[@botanbutton]

@@robrotron2084 But I love Donkey Kong 64.

[@illwill42]

Even then, I'd much rather the original Resident Evils over the remakes (the RE1 remake being an exception)

[@parrot998]

​@@robrotron2084 Not even Skyrim is the Skyrim people think Skyrim is. lol

[@ni9274]

Linear games aren’t inherently bad so long as the games is best served by a linear approach

[@dakotamerriman872]

A major issue of open world games is that you have a giant map that you have to fill with shit. Either the map is completely empty or it's filled with worthless collectibles that don't add to the experience. I don't have anything against open world games as a concept but I think you have to fill them with actual content. It feels really good to be exploring this big world and then discover a little secret or piece of environmental storytelling but it doesn't feel good to wander around the middle of nowhere looking for a collectible that you only care about for completions sake.

[@MetalxLicaxPP]

*cough* Elden Ring *cough*

[@ni9274]

Many open-world games are filled with good content, and you also need to understand that part of the map will always be empty. Open-world want to emulate the real life world, if they put too much content everywhere it make the world feel artificial.

[@ni9274]

@@MetalxLicaxPP Elden Ring map is full of good content and loot

[@MetalxLicaxPP]

@@ni9274 Loot, sure, even though a lot of it are meaningless. Content? Not really. A copy and pasted dungeon/area where you fight the same boss and enemies 100x isn't content.

[@itsallenwow]

A lot of these reasons are why Nintendo is still such a popular company despite their hardware being years behind. They don’t follow this trend in the same way. Im playing the new Fire Emblem on maddening mode and it’s such a challenging experience, and I fully press start during the cutscenes to skip. Each different Nintendo tentpole franchise does something entirely unique. It may come out cringe more so than an average triple A game by Sony or Microsoft. But you can never take away the unique gameplay experiences Nintendo offers.

[@itsallenwow]

This turned out to be one of my favorite Vaush non political rants of all time. Everyone who disagrees on this is a goldfish attention spanned zoomer normie tbh.

[@kurgans]

modern legend of zelda since your example is a THIRD PARTY TITLE merely published by nintendo, let's throw on modern pokemon too

[@lordlubu3029]

This has to be a troll. Putting aside that Vaush's take is retarded and extremely hypocritical since he plays Elden Ring and DnD, Nintendo has been moving to open world games SINCE the Switch released. My dude, the two best selling games on Switch are Pokemon SV and BotW two formerly linear games that went open world with the Switch. Odyssey is the closest to an open world Mario we've ever gotten, and FE Engages LITERALLY is testing out the open world concept with the whole "explore the battlefields" mechanic. It's very obvious that all the main Nintendo properties are moving to open world format....and that's good because Nintendo does open world games VERY WELL

[@jambott5520]

@@kurgans modern pokemon I would agree with, but modern zelda feels much less like they tried to replicate modern open world games but that they tried to make a modern reimagining of the OG legend of zelda.

[@kurgans]

@@jambott5520 collect more korok seeds or something nintendrone lol

[@L0neSiPh0n]

I get Vaush's overall point especially when he talked about Metro Exodus, I hated that game. And I liked the first two for a reason. The problem is when he says stuff like Uncharted and The Last of Us play the same. No they don't. In Uncharted you can do lots of absurd stuff while costantly moving through a barrage of fire, in The Last of Us you get tossed to the ground by a single bullet if you don't play it smart using cover. Point is, there's lots of stuff that Vaush gets right about the modern industry, the problem is that he tends to mix valid criticism with games that don't fit into that cathegory, maybe because he didn't play them, maybe because he heard some things about them and extrapolated more than what was actually reasonable

[@Ergoperidot]

Spot on. He’s got good points but his bias shows

[@emilchan5379]

Your last paragraph is spot on and why I find so many of Vaush's media takes frustrating. I feel that often he didn't play the games he talks about but bases his entire opinion from what he sees in a Videogamedunkey video. Doesn't help that he is very clearly biased. Like he criticises Diablo 3 and Path of Exile that can go on forever with no ending (which is a valid point). But Vaush plays Diablo 2. He is not one to talk. And when someone pointed that out, he says Diablo 2 and Diablo 3 are different. Like how? Both games have endgames that never really end. Though an anime and not a game, a good example of Vaush mixing valid criticisms of a genre with examples that don't fit that criticism is his Re: Zero take. Like Vaush dislikes isekai anime because a lot of it tends to be silly self-insert wish fulfillment (which is true). But Re: Zero is not that anime, because anybody who watched it would know that it is anything but wish fulfillment. I have a feeling he went into Re: Zero with his mind's expectation of what an isekai is, and ended up missing the show that was playing in front of his eyes.

[@ihaveasecret9539]

He really needs stop criticizing game he’s never played.

[@raghavpatel720]

​@@emilchan5379 but aren't we all biased?

[@emilchan5379]

@@raghavpatel720 Everyone is to some extent, but Vaush doesn't seem to realise how much his bias is clouding his judgement, which is a problem when he presents his opinions as objective fact. For example, the Diablo 2 vs Diablo 3/Path of Exile example I brought up earlier.

[@hannahs.7297]

it's so baffling to me how easily chat misses the point to vaush's rambles. "oh just go play [x] instead!" THAT'S NOT THE POINT. the point is greedy AAA game devs are mindlessly stringing you along like a diseased hampster so they can get another set of 60 dollars out of your rotting corpse. picking up random crafting materials and slogging through an underdeveloped open world until you hit the next plot beat is not fun and engaging. it is boring and you are bored.

[@lexter8379]

I think open world is great if its small, dense and more vertical. When the map is created with a purpouse and not just fill space. I love the gothic series, where the map was open but blocked by strong enemies to naturally lead the player to a more linear story with some side quests. I also like that they get rid of most of the UI - you only have healthbars (and mana) and names. The ingame map is drawn and actual item in your inventory you have to actually buy or find, there are no magical markers only landmarks literary drawn and your position. Its a old game and not perfect, but the atmosphere and world is pretty amazing imo.

[@rainbowkrampus]

V E R T I C A L I T Y

[@jasonfenton8250]

Gothic was an incredible example of open world game design. It gives the player tons of freedom but everything still feels very handcrafted and well paced in the way a linear game would. Did you try the Archolos mod for Gothic II? Absolutely fantastic.

[@lexter8379]

@@jasonfenton8250 I love that mod, I was actually playing Witcher and was bored out of my mind and when the mod came out I put 86hours in to it, while in the Witcher I got like 60 and in much linger timespan.

[@BleedForTheWorld]

The formula that includes stronger enemies blocking your way is one of the best ways to make an rpg. In fact, all of the best rpgs I've ever played included this along with some enjoyable side quests. I really don't mind fetch quests because it also makes you explore the in-game world some more.

[@lexter8379]

@@BleedForTheWorld Yeah when you explore and kill wolfs when suddenly there is a small army of raptors you know they are guarding some good shit, but they can one shoot you so you try to actually explore, right. Look for a way to avoid them, look for the loot around. In comparison skyrim was soooo boring, when I start it i felt so op. Especially when i tried healing magic...

[@uli11]

What the HELL is Vaush talking about? God of War Ragnarok is being lauded as one of the greatest games ever made... the only reason why people don't talk about it much is it *happened* to be unlucky and come out at around the same time as another game that only just slightly ekes out over it- Elden Ring (an open world game' BTW). That is just how these things go- amazing games get overshadowed by more amazing games with a similar release window. That's just how it is. Look at Hellblade: Senua's Sacrifice. At its time, it was a damn near perfect game. And only a few months later God of War came out and just took over because it was just a little better. Had just a little more hype. I think that a MUCH better take on all of this has been done by DJPeach Cobbler. His criticism is that too many games try to do it all (blandly), rather than focus in on just a few mechanics, perfect them, and then build a fun game play loop around those mechanics.

[@rainbowkrampus]

I think people don't talk about GoWR that much because it had points of friction that managed to be worse than the first game's while lacking the novelty which made overlooking those flaws possible. When people talk about the game's best features, it's the story and more specifically the acting and character portrayal i.e. the best parts of the game are the parts that are most like a movie. I don't think it's going to stand the test of time the way 2018 will. It's not an Elden Ring problem. It's a GoW problem.

[@Chelaxim]

Great games getting upstage because they were unlucky reminds me of the most notorious example. Baten Kaitos Eternal wings And Lost Ocean, I'm pretty sure you guys saw it and it's prequel announced that was getting a HD remasterer on the Nintendo switch this most recent direct. Well it came out in November 2004, November 2004 is kind of Infamous for being one of the most stacked months in video game history. Baten Kaitos was a turn-based RPG on the Nintendo GameCube that had to go up against Spider-Man 2, world of warcraft, half-life 2, EverQuest 2, Jak 3, Halo 2, killzone, Metal Gear Solid 3, Ratchet & Clank up Your arsenal, Counter-Strike source, The Legend of Zelda the Minish cap, Metroid Prime 2 echoes, Bejeweled 2 and the launch of the Nintendo DS all in the same month it did not stand a chance.

[@uli11]

@@rainbowkrampus hard and emphatic disagree. The gameplay loop is lauded as being a strict upgrade to the first… idk what game you were playing, or what reviews you were reading~ but this is a non controversial take. Better fight mechanics, more enemy variety, better upgrade system, better level design. The ONLY criticisms that have come out that Ive seen was the companion help system being way too helpful with their hints, and the hardest difficulty being a little too easy compared to the first. That’s it. Everything else was a strict upgrade… you must be from a parallel universe… might check a newspaper and read up on current events, no telling what else is different from your world.

[@uli11]

@@Chelaxim I’m sure there are countless examples. The politics of the Games industry and advertising and all of that have spelled the death of what were otherwise fantastic franchises. Even to this day I feel the Alundra franchise was absolutely robbed, and offered a peek into a couple of amazing worlds that desperately want to be expanded upon. But they weren’t “heavy hitters” in the age of final fantasy, Sonic Adventure, and Smash brothers. Oh well, it is what it is. We can only hope the gaming world improves as big devs start realizing what people want…

[@Senumunu]

they dont talk about it bcs there is nothing to really talk about either. the story is linear, predictable and uninspired.

[@lololol924]

Open world game burnout is something I've been feeling for years now, and yet every time I voice it, people think I'm crazy. Thank fuck someone else said it.

[@daryno9048]

I have been feeling it too, I can still enjoy some open world games like GoT and Horizon Forbidden West but it still can feel like a drag for me and the only open world games that I genuinely loved was Elden ring and the Spiderman games

[@parrot998]

Saaame

[@JackMellor498]

Vaush is so right here. I find open world games get boring for me real quick, like the sheer amount of space is designed to deliberately numb the mind.

[@itsallenwow]

Also the chatters who constantly say “lul Vaush how can you say this and like dark souls” really have no idea what the gameplay of dark souls is like. The only way you could think that is if you played it for like 5 minutes and decided you hated it. Then went back and played Skyrim lol.

[@lordlubu3029]

As someone who loves DS and Elden Ring, Vaush is absolutely retarded here. Like it or not ALL of his arguments apply to Elden Ring which is why people keep pointing it out. He's done this before in his other game rants. Elden Ring does it BETTER than other games, but Vaush is arguing against the EXISTENCE of open world games and crafting mechanics and repetitive set piece fighting....ELDEN RING DOES ALL OF THAT lol

[@sanitytheorist8221]

Since Rain World was mentioned in passing, it might interest some fans to know Curiosity Archive did a great video about the speculative biology/intricate programming that went into the AI for the game. Was pretty brutal with the difficulty when I tried it, but extremely well made and the developers truly made something special!

[@abigaillilac1370]

Vaush is 100% correct. I have almost 300 hours in Hogwarts Legacy because I am extremely mentally ill, not because the open world/crafting loop is good. The game would be better without the grind of killing hundreds of poachers. Yes, I sit down and complete every little icon on the map. I've also been locked in a mental ward twice for 2 weeks each time.

[@Senumunu]

self awareness W

[@KevinRobertsArt]

It's wild how many people will rush to the defense of meaningless bullshit in modern video games that is designed to do nothing but give them homework. Astounding. Crafting is just Items with extra steps designed to make you think you're doing something.

[@kingcheesus7591]

The think games like dark souls and Undertale do a great job of seamlessly weaving story, characters, and gameplay to where you feel like your actions have real consequences, making the game more replayable (for different character endings) and a much deeper personal stake in what’s happening. Games like god of war and the last of us are undeniably impressive and well made, but they sometimes feel like movies with extra steps.

[@masterplusmargarita]

The Xenoblade games are so good at making their open worlds meaningful. There's no random bullshit side activities, they're pretty much just intricately designed massive areas with tonnes of verticality that encourage you to explore by virtue of how much fun it is to see new bits of them, or through the occasional cleverly-placed sidequest objective that forces you to find an interesting route. They do have tonnes of meaningless collectible items scattered around - which is my least favourite part of their world design - but they're just orbs that you run through to pick them up, and they're plentiful and meaningless enough that you won't go out of your way for them, ever, you'll pretty much just slightly adjust your path if one happens to be near where you were going to be running anyway. They feel more like coins in Mario in how disposable they are than they do like Witcher 3 crafting herbs or something. That said, their designers, MonolithSoft had a massive hand in designing BotW's open world, so it shouldn't come as any surprise they know what they're doing with their open worlds.

[@andrewgreenwood9068]

Xenoblade games also have worlds that are just inherently cool.

[@XavierGobble]

I would like an 5 hour long segment where he just rates all of the games

[@schtreg9140]

Sounds like suffering if you'd take it serious or top tier comedy if you don't.

[@XavierGobble]

@sch treg honestly even when I disagree with his media takes I at least find it interesting to listen to When it comes to art I like to hear other opinions

[@CobaltN64]

After listening to his take on NieR: Automata. No, just no.

[@zzxp1]

He has to play them first because he clearly hasn't

[@schtreg9140]

@@zzxp1 And not just for 15 min. I hate when he pretends to know a game based on "I only played it for 15 min, but..." or "I only watched it on youtube and..."

[@jasonfenton8250]

Vaush should check out the modern fan maps made by the old school Doom community. They've been experimenting with Doom's gameplay for 20+ years and regularly produce visually imaginative, finely tuned death traps with badass MIDI music. Check out any recent Cacoward winner and you'll find some peak game design.

[@lolusuck386]

The best innovation has always been coming from the small indie developers and mod communities.

[@user-uq4gr5nl5o]

Open world RPG crafting is the cancer of gaming

[@loonardtheloonard]

As an ADHD ridden brain-poisoned zoomer, I literally play Minecraft to numb my brain while listening to Vaush. I have dozens of good games here on my PC, but I can't force myself to play them, because brain-pee-pee-poison

[@void-creature]

*METRO Exodus* proves that some series can be made INCREDIBLE by the addition of open world, if the developer actually cares about said world(s) and has a reason to want to include it other than "everyone is doing it"

[@ShukakuTheCrazy1]

The predictability is why I don't care for most movies these days. They feel the same.

[@darekpower]

its almost like open world is just another tool for game making and shoving it in everywhere where it doesnt belong will make some bad games, but that doesnt mean the tool has no use what so ever. there are some amazing games that are open world, and would just be far worse without it, because the openworld is a core part of it, I mean... minecraft for one. but there are also great games that dont need it like hifi rush. Its a case by case basis.

[@LimeyLassen]

It's a form of automated content, which is a valid creative tool but one that should be used VERY sparingly and with purpose.

[@eye-chan1711]

Feeling called out as a Destiny player. Don’t be fooled. It looks open world, but Bungie will literally force you to use specific guns.

[@georgebibu461]

The eternal agony of being a Destiny fan. The game sucks absolute balls and it properly exemplifies everything that a videogame SHOULD NOT be. And yet I constantly play it inspite of all that

[@eye-chan1711]

@@georgebibu461 Ok, but for the 2 seconds it’s good… it’s really good. Then it’s shit.

[@georgebibu461]

@@eye-chan1711 jokes aside, the sole reason I come back to destiny is its gunplay and art design, the actual content of the game sucks dick, but deep down underneath all the diarrhoea, there are some legitimate gems to be found in this otherwise scam of a game.

[@botanbutton]

🤷🏾‍♀ I love open-world games (Skyrim, Breath of the Wild), but I also love linear, closed games. Either type of game feeds some kind of need within me. I love crafting and collecting, so I'm fine with that; checking off missions on a list is satisfying, so I'm fine with that too. I'm good as long as I can have fun or the story is engaging.

[@Orson_Welp]

I have been hyperfixated on this man's takes for days and I needed someone to say this as flatly and matter-of-factly as you did one year ago. Thank you beautiful person.

[@botanbutton]

@@Orson_Welp lol You're welcome!

[@tjakal]

9:51 "You want consistency? I feel the souls games actually shouldn't have level-ups" Bang on target. leveling systems almost never makes sense, throttling difficulty for a leveling system as a developer means you never know the capability of the player and will be fighting that level system every step along the development process. Players will be near constantly over-leveled or under-leveled and the best way to solve it is to just scale everything against your level - which means you just undid the leveling system in a roundabout way. Many better alternatives to level ups exist to guide players path thru an experience, Keys, items, access to abilities etc. With a flat/known level you can more carefully craft the difficulty to hit the sweet spot as you're working against a known quantity instead of designing for builds that break the game and funnels players towards cheesing themselves out of the experience by zeroing in on some boring META.

[@machineelf9459]

Based take. All games becoming open world really ruined it for me. Witcher III I couldn’t finish, Elden Ring I couldn’t finish. To enjoy either of those games you have to give up on exploring everything as it becomes too tedious. So I have to choose between skipping content or doing a bunch of boring shit with a few crumbs of fun stuff thrown in.

[@Darth_Insidious]

Reminds me of how the Outer Wilds devs avoided any inventory/crafting shit because that would have detracted from the game.

[@LordChevonlier]

We need more games (Specifically in RPGs) that lock the player into choices. No more of this Skyrim, you can do everything in 1 run BS. Let the player make choices and lock them into those choices. I'm so sick of run arounds where it doesn't matter if the player chooses they don't want to do something, the quest will still be there if they change their mind. Also I feel like there's a big thing in the gaming community where everything has to be optimal. I'll be playing a game with friends and they'll give unsolicited advice on what's the best thing to take in a game. Like part of the fun is figuring things out myself and playing the way I want to play, not looking up what does the most damage or what trick I can do to save time. If you're trying to actively save time playing a game for yourself, it's probably not a fun game.

[@zzxp1]

Yeah we need more games like the witcher 2

[@Bepples]

Actually locking into choices is terrible because it makes people not want to experiment and ultimately they resort to guides and walkthroughs. It literally never pans out in the romantic way people like you portray it.

[@zzxp1]

@@Bepples But it has already been done in many RPG's, the comment is mainly a jab to Bethesda philosophy kind of games on which you can be the director of the school of magic without knowing magic. I don't particulary hate the freedom, but when it kills the immersion and is just pandering to the player it can get annoying.

[@brendantoungate8287]

I can't believe that people can't tell the difference between Assassin's Creed and Zelda: Breath of the Wild. Actually mind-blowing.

[@luizm-s9t]

I feel differently in a way: it seems that every game needs "to be challenging", every game needs to appeal to "soulsborne" style fans, apparently, and it gets really tiring to see, especially to watch someone fight the same boss for 4 hours. However, this almost certainly is a very biased sampling of the streamers I used to watch (until they filled their schedule with "dull, repetitive combat in which you learn pattern, you win"). I unironically enjoy narrative-driven games more than anything, so much that my favorite series is Yakuza/Like a Dragon: even if it has goofy/cliché moments, it made me sit down for over 15 hours straight attentively watching the cutscenes the first time I played Yakuza 0, for example. The example Vaush gave of the "boss rush" game with chill intersections is more or less what I like: satisfying and fun gameplay intermissioned by interesting narrative/cutscenes, like Yakuza 0, to stick with my example. The cutscenes are a nice breather between struggling with boss and long fights on Legend. I don't care much about "feeling accomplished" by beating a difficult boss in which all I need is to remember patterns, that's not for me. On a even more personal note, I fucking hate "Soulsborne" style, it bores the shit outta of me, but it is EVEN WORSE to aimlessly collect crafting shit as filler for the game. Personally, Yakuza/Like a Dragon it's a good balance, a limited world in which you can do substories if you want, or just keep progressing the main stories and to do them later.

[@Inertiafivezero]

The new God of Wars and games like TLOU2 are one of my all time favorite narrative-driven games with mostly linear maps. They can really focus on every detail and make every moment count. But when it comes to good RPGs there is no substitution for a well crafted open world. Devs just need to have a clear vision and know what they're doing. We need NPCs that react to way your character looks, to the personality and stats of the character. They need to remember previous interactions and events. Actions need to have consequences and impact to the world around you. Put 50 legendary beasts hidden in the world that move around and are really tough to find unless you interact with the world and its people. Feel the horror when you actually find one and the rush when you best it. These games can be so magical and captivating if done right.

[@FelisImpurrator]

Which games are you thinking of? Morrowind certainly fits. It's also, as Salt Factory's latest video mentioned, over a hundred man-years' worth of intensely high effort labor, with basically every single cup and fork and tree and secret bit of armor hidden in a tiny corner hand-placed, literal books' worth of dialogue AND lore AND questlines... and it's unfortunately held back by the jankiest gameplay in the universe. But damned if it isn't a masterpiece, if you can make it work.

[@Instaslam]

I think the basic structure of current AAA games is: we have x amount of money and time for this game. Fill the world as much as we can for 40% of production time with actual interesting interactions. 30% will be dedicated to changes to those interactions and the last 10% will be filling the emptiness with skinner box BS to string people along to each interaction. Edit: I got further in the video. I also agree with the basic point Vaush was making in the video which is basically that the very nature of the open world needs to be complimentary to the actual substance of the game. Whether that be narritively in Pathologic or Death Stranding, novel like in Breath of the Wild, or gameplay pacing like in Shadow of the Colossus. More so, games like Forspoken, Horizon Zero, or other open world games following the Ubisoft formula can simply be made into linear games with nothing realistically impacting the game play whatsoever. Try to strip the open world from Breath of the Wild and it's ruined. Try that with Horizon Zero and honestly it'd probably hone the scope and experience while adding more to the narritive, which is what many people cared for.

[@stefandjakovic4796]

It is so painful how dumb chat is in this one.

[@emilchan5379]

Yet another frustrating Vaush media take. The issue with Vaush is that he has valid criticisms, but fails to apply proper nuance and generalises a lot of things. I agree with Vaush that a lot of modern open-world games are packed with pointless clutter and things to do solely to waste the player's time and pad out the game. But the problem isn't open world games, it is in their implementation. When Vaush talks about open-world games, what he is referring to is those Ubisoft-style of open world games. But not all open world games are like that. See Morrowind for example - no map markers and no quest lists makes exploration a lot more natural and organic. As a gamer who is older than Vaush and older than most of the people in this comment section, I will say this. It is not open world games that are the problem, it is gaming companies in pursuit of money (ie capitalism). That is why a lot of recent open world games come out looking samey - because game companies follow trends. They see a successful formula will milk it is bled dry. It is the same thing for isekai anime. Long time ago, isekai anime were rather novel. Now the genre is being milked and people are getting sick of isekai. For a time, all first person games were linear shooters - plenty of people got sick of them, which is why Fallout 3, Oblivion and WoW were very well received back when they came out. Thus I find it amusing that Vaush and lot of younger gamers say open-world is bad and want to return to linear games, when I remember a time when people were sick of linear games and wanted open-world games. TL,DR: Saying open-world games bad is a very reductive and shallow take. Diversity is good, and dismissing a whole genre of games just because gaming corpos are milking it is incredibly naive.

[@occasional_doomer]

Counterpoint. Red Dead Redemption 1&2 and Witcher 3

[@rainbowkrampus]

I've quit Witcher 3 three times now. It is not a counterpoint to anything.

[@bugsbunny4647]

@Rainbow Krampus Majority of people haven't even finished the game. I've finished the main story, but my sidequest tab is reallllyy long.

[@occasional_doomer]

@@rainbowkrampus And the vast, vast majority of people disagree. Honestly if you thought it was boring, that is on you and your tastes and not a mark against the game.

[@occasional_doomer]

@@bugsbunny4647 source?

[@rainbowkrampus]

@@occasional_doomer Not for nothing, but, this isn't the killer argument you think that it is. Popularity doesn't mean that everybody enjoyed the same things about the game. It's also not an indicator of quality. It's an indicator of appeal. McDonalds is very popular. This does not mean that they serve an excellent burger.

[@ChadillacGrills]

But I like open-world games. I like roaming and exploring large, vibrant, detailed worlds with fewer limitations on where I can go and when. I grew up with linear, restrictive, corridor-focused games, so open worlds are a breath of fresh air. They can still be driven by narratives and interesting characters and whatnot, and those are the ones I love: The Witcher 3: Wild Hunt, Horizon: Zero Dawn/Horizon: Forbidden West, Red Dead Redemption 2, Ghost of Tsushima, the recent Assassin's Creeds, the Far Cry series, and others. Open-world design is awesome. 🤷‍♂

[@ChucksSEADnDEAD]

The issue is that Far Cry is a prime example of Ubisoft open world formula. I didn't play any FC between 2 and 5. So I enjoyed 5. I think that if I had played everything in between I'd have hated it.

[@ChadillacGrills]

@@ChucksSEADnDEAD I hear ya, but I have played almost all the FC games and still really enjoy them. I like losing myself in open worlds and having the freedom to explore, discover, engage at will, etc., while still having an interesting story to follow.

[@zerodollarbird]

With the exceptions of the most recent ACs and Far Crys, all of these games use their open worlds for a specific purpose. RDR2, it's because you're supposed to take the game slow and sink into the world as an actual theme of the story, and as a backdrop to the archetypical epic Western. HZD/HFW suffer from Ubisoft collectathon problems but their world was chosen because it's supposed to be something you look at until you realize where everything is or rather was, like "wait a minute, this quest route follows the old Interstate." Ghost of Tsushima has a lot to do with it being a game about a guerilla insurgency, so it would be strange if it didn't at least have some open design (although it could stand to be smaller). The Witcher uses its backdrop to have the experience of being an adventurer - they are, fundamentally, a series of RPGs where you play one class, so it inherits that design from old tabletop games. The ACs and Far Crys are where it begins to fall apart, because they exist to create a hamster wheel, especially the recent games. Some of the earlier ACs get around this - Black Flag in particular gets away with it because it's a game where sailing and naval combat wouldn't work in a confined space, and there's a ton of depth in it that *isn't* paced sluggishly, whereas Origins and Valhalla were deliberately designed to be teeth gnashing grind fests to steer the player toward microtransactions. Origins and Valhalla would lose absolutely nothing cutting their progression time in half.

[@ChadillacGrills]

@@zerodollarbird I can do without the XP grindfest of the AC games (and I totally hate microtransactions), but it's the expansive open worlds that actually drew me in to those games. I'll agree that "levels" and level-gated weapons and gear are dumb--these are features I've never really understood--but I enjoy the ability to roam around freely and experience things at my leisure. I'm happy with the size of Ghost of Tsushima's size. I'd never want it to be smaller. I've never understood the idea that a game is better with less space and less freedom and more restrictions. And if it weren't for The Witcher 3's open-world design, I literally never would've given it a second look. I would've just dismissed it outright. I bask in beautifully rendered open worlds with lots of room to do a variety of things while simultaneously appreciating stories and characters and themes and whatnot. Hell, these days, I wish Rockstar would just update RDR 2 to take advantage of current-gen consoles and be playable with 60-FPS frame rates so I can lose myself in its fantastic world again.

[@zerodollarbird]

@@ChadillacGrills The most important part of an open world's design that determines whether it really needs to be there or not is how it relates to the pacing and focus of the game. A lot of games that have huge open worlds would lose nothing but raw "our game is huge!!!" if they had that world trimmed down some. I agree that it's often (though not always) good to have an open world, it should just come as an answer to "what can an open world bring to our game" rather than "we need an open world to be marketable". Sometimes, a more focused and detailed environment is more important than a bigger one. A really great example of this in a nonlinear environment is the fantastic Jedi: Fallen Order, which had large areas with plenty of interconnected branching paths, but didn't overdo itself and make every planet a huge, expansive map. I just don't think raw map size is the key to a good open world. I think you can have smaller and more focused ones that deliver better experiences than huge sprawling ones, unless your game is genuinely built to take full advantage of a huge map like RDR 2, where the size and scale of the epic western necessitates a huge world by its nature.

[@veneratlazulum2033]

The best game is Gary's mod. Every week, my friends and I get together and obtain new mods and create games for ourselves, whether they are PVP or RP. There is hardly a greater freedom than transcending the limitations material realm. I love the limbo between the material realm and imagination where imagination becomes real!

[@jonc3519]

I will say that the history of video games consists of corporations copying a format that works at the time

[@tequilasunset8628]

happy to have started this stunlock by linking the square enix article o7

[@Darth_Insidious]

29:20 The last 5 games I played were Modded Minecraft, Deep Rock Galactic, Kerbal Space Program, Lobotomy Corp, and Celeste. Have to say, I probably will forget all of my memories with them except for Lobotomy Corp and Celeste, and maybe KSP because I taught someone how to land on Minimus that time. Most of my game time is just hanging out online with friends and not pursuing meaningful single player experiences though.

[@MarkArandjus]

I feel like Uncharted or God of War or the new Tomb Raider, etc, a third of the game is a movie, a third is climbing around and only a third is core gameplay. Sometimes I just watch the movie edit on YT instead, because I don't want to spend hours climbing around. You can't do that with games like say Hitman where 90% of the playtime is actual core gameplay.

[@danielshuck7586]

There are already entire games that revolve around this. Play any of the modern Tomb Raider games and you'll see this. There's like maybe four hours of actual stuff happening. The ENTIRE REST of the game is picking up stuff and slowly climbing or moving through environments. I thought the Arkham games used time wasting stuff a lot but it's getting excessive.

[@Senumunu]

"how do we update the gameplay of a series that is about an acrobatic tomb explorer ?" "lock her into 20sec climbing animations every 60 seconds. add some open world slop on top of it" genius.

[@AlkisGD]

I'm playing Horizon Forbidden West these days because Sony added it to PS+, and I'm having a really good time. The appeal of games like Horizon for me is getting to live inside another world for a bit. I try to immerse myself in its post-apocalyptic world by paying on ultra hard and treating every encounter as serious, life-or-death business. Crafting further enhances the immersion because of course Aloy isn't gonna spend money buying stuff when she can make it herself. Finally, stealth is always my preferred playstyle, and it fits perfectly with my preferred difficulty setting, since a ton of machines can oneshot Aloy, even when she's buffed with potions. Machines are prey, but you gotta respect them.

[@kevinjohnanand]

Also forbidden west was delayed specifically to prevent crunch, which is nice.

[@DGAMINGDE]

No joke. If I like a game highly depends on, how much you can customize it and how many mods there are. I often get annoyed at most game stories, so I love using the creative freedom, that can turn a story or game idea on its head.

[@kurgans]

the entire reason i switched from console to pc gaming was literally crying at how bad the Dawnguard DLC's story was so I wanted to use console commands to kill serana and spare vyrthur

[@MetalxLicaxPP]

Honestly, if you need mods and add-ons to enjoy a game, then that game is bad.

[@lolusuck386]

@@MetalxLicaxPP try playing a game with mods and then come back and delete this dumb ass comment.

[@DGAMINGDE]

@@MetalxLicaxPP I always download mods for any game. You just called every single game bad. I don't care how you play Skyrim or the Fallout games. I play those games with an army of 50 AI followers and I am entertained.

[@MetalxLicaxPP]

@@DGAMINGDE Yes, every game is bad if you need mods to enjoy it. For example, Skyrim is an awful game. With mods, it's a fun game, but the actual game itself is still very bad.

[@Rune_Scholar]

The problem is not with open world games, it's with empty cash grabs that are "open world" just to have that on the box and make it seem like the game is bigger than it is. I am older than Vaush. I am older than most people in these comments. I enjoyed playing fucking Joust on Atari as a pre-teen. I've seen nearly the entire video game history. You do not want to go back to linear, on the rails, "oh look at this narrow field with convenient immersion-killing cliff walls on either side. What strange and quirky geography," style games. For me, someone who spent 95% of their gaming history in older, on-the-rails linear games, open world games are what has saved the medium for me. What you are feeling Vaush, you youngun, is negative recency bias. For someone who has spent most of their gaming life in shitty, empty, cash grab open worlds that exist only as a framework that is as thin as convenient-store bathroom toilet paper in order to justify predatory microtransactions, yeah I can see why you might feel like open-world games are ruining everything. But that's short sighted; it's throwing the baby out with the bathwater. It's like some lib trying to ban guns because they are associated with the right. Open world games aren't your problem, it's the fucking corpos-suprise surprise-that put them out. For every 5 copy-paste Ubisoft games, you will have a Nintendo putting out Breath of the Wild, or an indie darling like Valheim, both open world games done well. Don't buy Assassin's Weed 58. Don't buy Unsharted 72. Buy good open world games. Also buy linear games, puzzle games, shooters, or whatever you happen to like. There is room for all kinds of genres. Don't let the industry get locked into one methodical patern.

[@twpsyn]

he's spitting. so many AAA games feel like samey, designed by committee checklists trying to include everything they can to make skinner boxes that they can accurately predict ROI for

[@garciapico1495]

Love vosh unhinge media takes

[@Mudmunt]

Whenever I think of a great story-driven yet gameplay based game, you can't go wrong with links awakening. The fact that the game lets you explore the map (to a certain point) like an open world but actively encourages you to reach the next step by solving puzzles on your own and draw conclusions withoug help feels the most immersive. Botw did this well, but the open world bit got a bit boring after you beat Ganon. At least botw didn't have a weapon crafting system, that would've been weird

[@paulfitzsimons2044]

In all fairness, God Of War 2018 has an excellent gameplay/story-telling relationship. For example **SPOILERS**, when Atreus falls ill from his godhood awakening, contradicting his belief he is a mortal, Kratos must face that his son will one day be as powerful as him and must make sure that Atreus doesn't make the same mistake he has. HOWEVER, in order for Kratos to save Atreus from his inner-conflict, he must confront his past and get the very weapon he used to needlessly slaughter thousands. That unlocks a new gameplay dynamic which plays in perfectly with the story of the game.

[@NotThatJojjo]

This is why Baldur's gate 3 is amazing while still being in early access and will be the game of the century when it comes out full version.

[@ismeal231]

Crafting can be a great part of an open world game, the system needs to be engaging, though. I remember back in the day when in OG WoW, crafting allowed you to get the best weapons in the game (Sulfuron and Windseeker Blade), but you needed to play through the game to get the materials to forge those weapons and, and it felt amazing when you did it. I think we need to go back to that kind of crafting in open world games.

[@Senumunu]

No.

[@dhatfield8411]

I understand the point, but what if we like exploring? DA: I was full of lore and unmarked quests.

[@sergy4865]

He wasn’t saying that games like that are bad. He was just saying that exploration elements can detract from a game if they are shoved into a game where they don’t really fit.

[@Prinsdam]

Linear games are full of exploration, and that exploration is usually more engaging when you're navigating a bespoke environment tailor-made to engage the player. Compare with any 20 square mile open world that's just sculpted terrain dotted with procedurally placed objects and modular settlements, where you've basically seen all the content within the first 5 hours.

[@Senumunu]

cant wait to explore more outposts and crafting materials. if i am lucky there will be a copy paste cave as well !

[@revelaitons3959]

People are so mean to Vaush over his media takes. Whenever I'm trying to find a new game to play and I see one that looks interesting, but then it comes shackled with the Four Horsemen tags; Crafting, Survival, Open World, and RPG I skip over it.

[@Kazoo_man64]

Play duke nukem 3D

[@lordlubu3029]

You not liking a game genre =/= the game genre itself being shit. The thing people are and at Vaush about is that not only is eh saying open world games and MMOs are shit, but that they shouldn't exist...AND YET HE PLAYS THEM and is completely lacking in self awareness about it.

[@coaxill4059]

I swear to god half of Vaush's audience are bots who always respond "How dare you have standards? Why aren't you as easily entertained as I am?" LIke seriously, if this is what you're stuck on, give up on any form of art. Go buy a pack of needles, toss it into a haystack, then find them all so you can do it again. You are the reason everything is an early access DLC completionism fest. You are the reason games like New Vegas and Disco Elysium are rare, and games like Far Cry and Skyrim are common. Demand more ffs! You can enjoy slop, that's what it's there for, just stop defending it as if your enjoyment alone means it's good enough. People enjoy huffing glue, but I'm not content with that; I demand a nice cocktail made from complementary ingredients. I demand something I'll remember long after I've stopped consuming it.

[@brandensandberg6668]

One of my favorite parts of games like the Resident Evil's is when there's a boss fight coming in like the next room, there's a butt load of ammo sitting there. It's like a nice little mental preparation to relieve you of stress and build it up at the same time lol

[@TescoValueMemes369]

I will listen to this while playing Surviving Mars and Vaush can't stop me.

[@DammitBobby]

Vaush doesn't even know what horizon is about. I'm exploring the map for the environments and real life sites and landmarks that, in world, are now 1000 years old. I'm not exploring for the fucking plants I'm going to pick up. Dude doesn't even know what he's talking about cause he hasn't played it.

[@beflyaudio]

You know what. I think what he's trying to say is (but you cant hear it behind all the screaming) is that honestly who gives a shit what you play, but if you play games that exploit your dopamine loop, you can atleast have a decensy to be self aware about the fact that its a vice and a stress coping tool, and not a thing you do for enrichment. Because i love collecting useless shit around open beautiful and expansive maps. But it also has no benefit to me as a person. I just do it because it allows me to calm down and play with cool toys. Because if you really think about it, justifying it is like justifying alcohol by saying that its good for your health. Ofcourse its not, but sometimes its just nice to have a cold one and get back into your comfort zone every once in a while. And when people say they like the open world games, manly the ones that objectivelly have no challenge and are lazily strung together, they do it because they desperately want to experience the fantasy, theme and setting the game is selling in a fulfilling and satisfying way, but there is just no alternative a this moment, so they just settle with what is available, and make themselves think that its okay actually.

[@TheAmericanAmerican]

Vooosh screeching at zoomers warms my millennial heart 😊

[@blazingmonolith4323]

This was honestly so damn funny. Vaush getting triggered by chat is pure content.

[@HiCZoK]

Everyone is so wrong on Forspoken. Game is way more than just it's memes. It;s ony one my fav 2023 games. Great combat, traversal, story/lore, music and even graphics (after patches). The main character is actually a character. A personality. Not blank page. She has a character arc. She might start as annoying meme but there is merit to it

[@mkklassicmk3895]

Vaush sounds like the ignorant people he debates, its kinda hilarious. He really has no clue what hes talking about and it shows. He has just decided that game play elements he likes are objectively superior to the ones he doesn't like. Problem is, the argument he uses to rationalize his feelings of dislike would also work on the things he says he likes about games. All video games are like juggling, its just the same loop over and over, and then you throw in a new ball to change things up or add a bit more of a challenge. If you want a unique experience that avoids the game play loop you need to switch to TTRPG's.

[@CrypticMantisTX55]

When I'm playing the boring, padded part of a game I just listen to Vaush videos 👍

[@NessieNep]

I'm old enough to remember when corridor shooters were the punching bag.

[@YNM44]

Thank you for saying that. I agree with you 100%. Modern AAA games are trash. The only playable games now are indie games from small developers.

[@crassiewassie8354]

Something I kinda hate about modern games is they feel a need to be endlessly giving me notifications and like ADHD brain flashing numbers and gameplay systems. Where you're encouraged to go through your menus as fast as you can, you click the shiny button twenty times and it makes a satisfying sound, and then you also get like "Pipe bomb x18" in the top right of your screen. And then the XP boost as well. Like I just wanna walk through a world and look at the walls and pretend i'm the character i'm playing. And it always really hurts to be just pulled out of the experience by these overly gamey systems that remind me that i'm playing a videogame every step of the way.

[@bazkart]

You know stages can help a ton of this. Not everything needs to be open world. Most things don't need to be. I really think it's some weird thing with people thinking pixel graphics or stages/chapters are too old fashioned and thus bad for some reason?

[@MiketheNerdRanger]

Vaush sounding like an old man while talking about video games. Didn't think anyone could pull it off. Vaush sometimes falls victim to the "soapbox mentality," and that's on display here.

[@bjaminrowe]

“What’s the alternative?” Levels. Separate levels broken up by loading screens and cutscenes.

[@Wiklina616]

As someone who likes games with good story and have like a 100 games in a backlog, I confess that there is enough games for everyone :D SOME games have even engaging story AND sandboxes :p