Sea Power - EMCON Tutorial by former OHP FFG Sailor

[@SubBrief]

excellent point, Ryu. I'll mention this on my stream today. I think you are 100% correct. Well done. (SubBrief/ JiveTurkeyLive)

[@giroromek8423]

So subs can bang their sonar like a metal band now, oh yeah 🤟

[@ryu1940]

I appreciate the kind words! Good luck with your stream today!

[@blake9908]

Aaron, you are the pardoned turkey

[@nathanwells4809]

Will you mention it before or after the gambling sponsor?

[@steriskyline4470]

​@@nathanwells4809in-between the gambling site and that cheesy news site that totally gives you accurate left/right bias scales 😂

[@howardkong8927]

The more I play this game, the more I feel that AEW&C is the true most powerful weapon of a carrier, not the fighters or bombers. Being able to maintain situational awareness in EMCON is so overpowered. A Shipwreck barrage can do most of the stuff a Ko-45 can do, but nothing from a cruiser can replace a P-42RLDN.

[@ryu1940]

@@howardkong8927 absolutely the name of the game is domain awareness

[@EvilTwinn]

It's true! You gain information while denying it to your enemy- and can do so from a FAR greater distance than a surface sensor.

[@briansmithwins]

and that's why the Sov stuck big surface search radars in Tu95s & helos. plus, when I'm playing the Sov, if I have the right assets to go after them, taking out the AEW is my #1 priority

[@tigerpjm]

Yes! Electronic warfare in general. I've always suspected it was, but understanding why was beyond me. This game confirmed my intuition and showed me why.

[@nickdubil90]

In reality, even as early as the late 70s through the 80s, much of the seaborne awareness of enemy assets was delegated to satellite reconnaissance. No, you're not going to use this data to guide a weapon, but this data (correlated with other intelligence agencies) giving general location data of surface groups WILL have been passed-down though CINC to individual admirals. They hadn't quite figured out submarines by satelite yet, that wouldn't really be available until the 90s.

[@briansmithwins]

EMCON is a tool that's useful in some situations, like when you're the weaker or outranged side. Keeping EMCON after you're spotted is just blindfolding yourself in a fight.

[@ryu1940]

Exactly this!

[@ghostdog688]

I think the biggest reason you’d go EMCON is based on the premise the enemy doesn’t know where you are. That goes out the window the moment you’re unambiguously sure they are sending fighters directly towards your fleet. Of course, once the missiles start flying you may as well light the electronics up and start rotating and radiating. On the other hand, it’s beneficial to observe EMCON if the scenario is set up in such a manner that the enemy doesn’t know exactly where you are.

[@ryu1940]

Very true, if you see jets flying at you then you must assume the jig is up and respond accordingly. I don’t know that the AI ships in Sea Power currently conducts and search techniques. I believe in most scenarios they simply have a waypoint to close towards your formation which eventually brings on the conflict. I’m hoping as EA develops we get more advanced search techniques.

[@MarkoDash]

Think of it like a gunfight in a dark stadium, sure you could turn your flashlight on to see better, but you will be seen by everyone, including the ones you don't see.

[@Cg23sailor]

@@MarkoDash Effectively it works like this... A radar signal has to make a two way trip. from the transmitter to the target, and then reflected from the target back to the receiver. A signal gets weaker with distance. The signal must still be strong enough to be detected by the receiver. plus, not all the signal is reflected, just a small part of it, and that part still has to make the round-trip back to the receiver. A receiver beyond the target, can then theoretically detect the signal at 1.5 times the range at which the sending radar can detect its own echo back. SO as you are closing an unknown enemy, and the enemy has their radar on.. their outbound signal is strong enough for you to detect before you are close enough for their signal to bounce back to them at a detectable strength. That's bare bones, and a lot more actual details goes into it, but that's a layman's description. Something dealing with the actual physics of it, beyond a simple flashlight analogy.

[@HarryWHill-GA]

I'm a retired Surface Warfare Officer. A very good and brief explanation about when NOT to to have all your emitters off. If you have external sensors, such as an E-2 or an AWACS, I would generally recommend keeping your emitters off. You can also station a radar picket ship or helo away from the main body of your TF. If the enemy knows where you are, turn EVERYTHING on. At that point EMCON is not helping.

[@ryu1940]

It is always great to hear a former SWO perspective, thank you for chiming in!

[@HarryWHill-GA]

@@ryu1940 My first ship was one of the first non-test bed ships to receive the AN/SLQ-32V1 in 1981. Our installation was short one circuit card puller. I had the EW1 fill out the request chit. I checked it (CIC Officer), the Chief storekeeper checked it, and the Supply Officer checked it. Several weeks later the Chief SK knocked on the door to Combat. I don't think he had ever been that high on the ship. "I've got your circuit card puller, Mr. Hill. Where do you want it?" "Oh, just put it on the DRT." "OK, guys, bring it in." Wait, what? That little device would fit in the palm of your hand and weigh, maybe, two ounces. It seems there was a genuine duplicate stock number in the system. What was delivered was the 4 foot high, 80 pound, closed end wrench for removing the propeller nut for a Spruance-class destroyer. The chief said, don't worry Mr. Hill, we can return it and I already filled out a new request chit for your puller. When I rotated off the ship several months later, my division gave me a plaque with a miniature version of the wrench on it. I still have it around here somewhere.

[@robanson32]

More than anything else I feel like this highlights why we need a really strong dynamic campaign mode versus just sailing around in Scenarios. Scenarios inherently make EMCOM much less useful as you're literally only there because you know combat is about to happen- versus a campaign type situations where you're always trying to hide in the vastness of the ocean.

[@XerxesLangrana]

It helps people learn.

[@ryu1940]

Yeah scenarios are often designed for speedy conflict so it makes using EMCON in many cases not worth it. I am not sure the enemy AI is even capable of turning emcon on and off and can search for enemy forces without an waypoint drawing them to your spawn point in the scenario.

[@robanson32]

@@ryu1940 I don’t think they are- considering they’re not even capable of launching planes atm

[@ryu1940]

I have seen the AI launch aircraft recently. There was that Desert Spear mission on the workshop where you destroy the Iraqi navy and you can play from the Iraqi perspective. When I've done that after a recent update I have seen the AI launch E-2s, EA-6, A-6, and A-7. The only thing the US carrier is missing is to launch fighter jets.

[@robanson32]

@ did they launch or did the scenario editor teleport them? I’ve never seen them do anything in any scenarios I’ve created- the devs also mentioned the behavior is incomplete

[@BenjaminGerfelder]

Good stuff, I think at least part of the reason for the "default to EMCON" sentiment is the fact that the game will tip you off in some ways even if sailing completely blind. If you see time acceleration drop down to 10x that means there are missiles inbound and you really need to switch on your radar.

[@ryu1940]

that’s very true lol either a torpedo or a missile is on the way if you get capped to 10x time compression lol

[@MaxSterling01]

A good example of EMCON is in the book Red Storm Rising. Read the Vampires chapter. Even with the ships at EMCON the Soviets knew where the ships were based on other intelligence such as the RORSATS and by looking at where the E-2Cs were based on Navy tactics of the time. Eventually the Big Bulge radar on the Bears found the fleet. Can't hide a large radar return.

[@jamesngotts]

Thank you for for making this video! So many video contributors have been making videos where they preach EMCON as the golden rule and I’ve been tearing out my hair for the exact reasons you laid out in this video. Your radar profile is based on numerous factors you include your AO, ROE, and the potential threat capabilities.

[@ryu1940]

Oh yeah man when I was watching the people who had early access before the game released preach it like the be all end all I was like we're gonna put that to bed when I get my hands on this game lol. You're exactly right, you need to think about the threat that is out there before you determine if you're going to go quiet or not. Imagine having an advanced capability like AEGIS and simply turning it off just cause. Kinda crazy.

[@ashe83]

​@@ryu1940I think this mostly stems from people trying to control a surface combatant's radar the same way they do a submarine's active/passive sonar. Which are obviously not the same.

[@ryu1940]

That is a good point.

[@jamesngotts]

@ lol yeah I remember watching some of the early access videos of the Straight of Hormuz gameplay and they were all going EMCON and getting smashed with Exocets detected at basically point blank. Playing radar on, the Iranians scored not a single hit on my ships

[@CmdrTyrael]

​@jamesngotts that's because alot of players don't know about the concept of a radar picket, EW Aircraft or how to respond when you have sensor superiority.

[@josephknaak9034]

You could also move one ship away from the main force as a radar picket. He lights off his radar but the main force stays dark until they need to fire.

[@briansmithwins]

that also denies info to the enemy if they only light off a common radar set, like the SPS 40 or 49. the only thing you'd know was a direction and it's probably a NATO warship

[@TheRealAfroRick]

We who are about to die salute you.

[@CapitaineNautilus]

Or, better, send a helicopter.

[@HelixWek]

One thing I've noticed is that "Weapons Free" on air defense actually tells them to engage ALL targets too. I was in range of coastal fuel tanks and factory warehouses and my ships on "Weapons Tight" didn't fire. Enemy planes came after me and I set them to "Weapons Free" on Air ROE and they started firing Tomahawks at the fuel tanks/warehouses and ship missiles at an enemy Kirov in range. I don't know if it's bugged/working as intended, but in every mission I've done so far, "Air Defense Orders" makes my guys attack *everything* in range.

[@ryu1940]

@@HelixWek I think I saw in the discord today they said they want to increase control for the player to specify what things can be shot at so hopefully in the future this is fixed or improved.

[@HelixWek]

@@ryu1940 Good to hear!

[@Karyovin]

That's good, I would like to have my ships fire SAMs but not fire their AShMs automatically

[@sgtrpcommand3778]

"Sir you said weapons free, how was I supposed to know that you *didn't* want to destroy the enemy city?"

[@Karyovin]

@sgtrpcommand3778 sir, you need to be specific that you didn't want a SS-N-19 fired at a missile boat

[@vincentbaretti3114]

Thank you very much for your tutorial videos. I am grateful, and here's why. I watched many You Tube gamer posts of Sea Power since some received early release beginning in late August, early September. One particular gamer caught me in a bad mood one day late September, and I didn't like the way he made some of his videos and I told him so politely and said I'll come back a week or two later to see if he improved on his video making skills, to which he being either Australian or an Englander addressed me as "mate" and told me not to bother coming back at all, to which I replied, "best advice I'd gotten all week". Fast forward to November 12th, the official release date of the game and in the wee hours I purchased it on Steam, DL'd it and began playing it with the mission creator. All the knowledge I had about the game came from the 2 months of watching other people play it and learning bits here and there. Two days later I begin to click on the links provided within the game to view the 6 videos linked to You Tube that serve as the game's official tutorial videos and to my mortification, the gamer I had the contentious exchange with, I guess is employed by Triassic Games because there he was, with his poor skills in charge of tutorials! I let him know how mortified I was, but this time he ignored me and since then I've been learning the game with continued watching of other people's videos, watching their cursor movements, listening and occasionally asking questions for anyone to answer. Your tutorials are by far the best I've seen, slowly walking everything through with a great explanation as well. Thanks again. Great job! More and more I enjoy this great game, thanks mainly to your tutorials.

[@ryu1940]

Oh yeah I really wish I had early access to the game to help new players out sooner but I am glad you found my videos helpful and that it makes the game more enjoyable for you. Thank you for the kind words I appreciate it!

[@kennethschlegel870]

Great stuff, I was a SPS-49 tech on the USS Cape St George, did a lot of EMCON drills.

[@ryu1940]

Oh man that’s really cool! I had no idea some cruisers actually had a 49! We had them on the OHP class but not the DDG I was on. I just thought all the CGs would be the same way since they had Aegis.

[@kennethschlegel870]

All Ticonderoga's started out with them as a secondary radar, some had theirs removed if they went through the cruiser modernization program. Plus in the context of EMCON I guess it would be beneficial to have an air search radar that didn't automatically identify you as an Aegis ship.

[@ryu1940]

@@kennethschlegel870 yeah it is too bad the emcon stuff isn't elaborated on. We should be able to just run a Furuno comnav radar to still get a weak surface picture and not immediately give away who we are. That is a really cool fact about the 49s on Ticos, thanks for sharing that I had no idea.

[@Cg23sailor]

@@ryu1940 That is the whole point of having a Furuno onboard So we can shut down a Navy specific Surface Search like an SPS-55 and leave on a basic Off-the-Shelf Commercial navigation radar like a Furuno. "On the 1MC, Set EMCON Bravo throughout the Ship".

[@ryu1940]

oh yeah I am totally aware of that @cg23sailor, it is something we should have in game and something the AI should react to accordingly if they see it.

[@suntzuthesecond]

One scenario where I found EMCON useful is the Breakthrough scenario - the one where you play as the Soviets trying to break through the Straits of Gibraltar. *** WARNING: SCENARIO SPOILERS BELOW *** By putting my ships on EMCON and relying on my AEW&C for surveillance, NATO forces were unable to identify my ships even as I pounded their ships and airbase to smithereens with aircraft and Shipwreck missiles. On the other hand, if my ships were emitting, they'd get identified quite early and NATO would launch a huge strike package of Prowlers and Phantoms against my carrier. I can still get through the scenario, but I'd lose about twice the number of aircraft compared to using EMCON. I didn't know the trigger for the strike package existed when I first tried the scenario. This was until my ships were already crossing the straits when I got the notification that I'd been detected and NATO was launching a large air attack against me. It must have been a bug, because I've already destroyed the airbase by then. For clarity: I believe your point still stands. The decision to use EMCON or not (and how) is very situational. Players shouldn't just default to something and make the effort to appraise their situation instead.

[@ryu1940]

Thank you! Yes there are absolutely scenarios where you should be at emcon and I want to show a user scenario soon that I really enjoyed which you should definitely be at emcon for a bit until circumstances change.

[@nuttyjawa]

Thanks for this, been watching a few people using EMCOM as if they are a fighter jet hiding in a valley You need the situation awareness like you say, and sometimes you have to remember you are in a giant convoy of ships that light up nicely against anyone elses Radars (missiles included)

[@ryu1940]

You're exactly right!

[@Cg23sailor]

3:14 "I don't know if these particular are SLQ-32's or something different..." Those are the SLQ-32 Antennas. in point of fact those are the SLQ-32(V)3 version. Which means they have offensive/defensive Jamming capabilities. Former EW here. I was a SLQ-32 Operator.

[@ryu1940]

That is very cool! Thanks for that information!

[@Cg23sailor]

@@ryu1940 You can always tell the (V)# of the SLQ-32 antenna by looking at the number of flat panels on the two faces of the antenna enclosure If it has just one large rectangular panel on the two outward faces of the enclosure, it is a (V)1 and can only detect higher frequency fire control and weapons radars If it has a smaller panel just above that, then it is a (V)2 system and can also detect lower frequency search radars If there is a very small square panel below the two other panels, it is a (V)3 and has active jamming ECM capability. The (V)4 is the same as the (V)3 as far as the antennas go. but they're found only on Carriers Basically each antenna has their own (V)3 system routed to one control panel. This is because of the size of the carrier and the antenna installations are too far apart and there would be signal attenuation and loss. Normally a (V)3 is two antennas and one system. The (V)5 is a (V)2 system and antennas, but with an "after market" add-on antenna mounted below it called Sidekick to give the (V)2 system the active ECM abilities of a (V)3 without having to replace the whole system (Usually found on updated Perry Frigates and the like. But yeah, just count the number of panels on the two outward angled faces of the enclosure to know which version it is.

[@speed150mph]

I will say, when I used to play dangerous waters, I loved when everyone had radars on. As a sub driver it made it so much easier to I’d and locate surface ships and make tactical decisions. That being said, I’m a fan of smart EMCON. One or two picket ships radiating in a spaced out formation, or better yet, an AWACS jet, gives you advance warning of vampires inbound without compromising the location of the rest of your formation. If the picket sees missiles inbound, then everyone can turn radars on and begin targeting.

[@peterdavid5034]

Don't know if anyone in the comments has already said this, but Belknap is pronounced BELL-nap, the K is silent. Thanks for a great video!

[@ryu1940]

Hey thanks for that, I had no idea!

[@peterdavid5034]

@ryu1940 I cheated a little, I went to school with a girl whose last name was Knapp 😊

[@moisheshekelberg7632]

​@peterdavid5034 i hope when you left her her name became Bell-endKnapp❤

[@christopherchartier3017]

Belk Nape

[@jayteaman]

Nice video, friend. At 3:13, the predecessor to the SLQ-32 was the AN/WLR-1 (Whirly-One). In use from the late 60s through the late 70s when the SLQ-32 came into fleet-wide adoption. The SLQ-32 is still in use to this day as the primary EW suite of the surface fleet, and highly modernized. I was a CTT aboard a late-model FFG from 2010-2014. I loved doing EMCON drills and grabbing the 1MC in CIC. "Now set EMCON condition Alpha One through the ship. Make EMCON reports to the EW watch supervisor in CIC".

[@ryu1940]

ah cool thanks for the information! Wow I was on an FFG around that time as well! 2010-2013 for me on the Rentz out in SD. I felt bad for our CTTs we only had enough for port and starboard watches for them the whole deployment. That was awful for them. Hopefully you guys had better manning!

[@jayteaman]

@ryu1940 I was truly blessed, homeported in Mayport and had a Chief who picked it up when transferring to the command. We got padded from a lot of the Operations department hooplah that goes on because of him. Even put himself on the underway watch bill we wouldn't have to be port and starboard. Good dude. Spent a few Thanksgivings at sea! Happy Thanksgiving to you from a new viewer

[@ryu1940]

Happy Thanksgiving to you too man! That is awesome to hear a chief putting himself on the watch bill underway like that to help you guys out like that. Those types of people are solid leaders.

[@Heldermaior]

Emcon also severely limits the ammount of weapons you can have in the air. That is another thing to have in mind.

[@ryu1940]

Great point!

[@xenoaltrax485]

Good video! All those early access YT channels were playing their ships like they were submarines running passive towed arrays. Even full-on Aegis cruisers were staying dark in the name of "sub stealth tactics", then just lighting up once inbound AShMs were detected at visual range, what a waste of the Aegis system.

[@ryu1940]

Oh yeah it was pretty wild seeing people turn off Aegis lol all to turn them back on after the missile is detected in the terminal phase like 3 miles out...hopefully this video has taught people you shouldn't roll around like that by default!

[@Cg23sailor]

A ship is ALWAYS in an EMCON condition. The Game treats it as EMCOM being all radars off. EMCON is actually a set of conditions, one of which is all radars off. Another is all radars on. And in between are various EMCON Conditions which allow certain systems on and others to be off. A Ship or formation of ships will have an EMCON PLAN, and depending on which EMCON Condition is set, the various ships and individuals responsible for different systems will have to react according to the PLAN. Generally EMCON A (Pronounced "EMCON ALPHA") Means unrestricted use of radars and radios. EMCON D (Delta) is complete Silence of all transmitters of any sort. EMCON Conditions Bravo and Charlie will vary according to the EMCON Plan, But may allow for certain radars, to radiate but others to remain silent Most Navy Ships will also have a basic Navigation set similar to most any Commercial radar set Using that radar will not be a unique fingerprint to ID the Ship, unlike the SPY-1 radar for the Aegis ships Or a particular EMCON condition may be set due to an evolution requiring a HERO setting HERO: Hazardous Emissions of Radiation to Ordnance. Basically you cannot radiate certain frequencies and antennas when a weapons loading or maintenance is in progress due to the potential of induced current causing a detonation in the ordnance. It annoys me to no end when I see players try to stay in EMCON even when there is no need to and even worse, trying to go back into Radar silence AFTER AN ATTACK. Being in EMCON is only a possible advantage depending on the tactical condition, but once engaged, trying to stay in or regain EMCON is just blinding your own side to situational awareness. But how the game is currently handling ESM/ECM is very bad and needs a lot of improvement. Currently you will often get an EM contact via ESM but it will not tell you what Radar is being detected. Nor do you get a contact from an enemy's other radars such as gunfire control radars or Missile radars. Only their Air and Surface search radars. And forget bearing lines. those yellow detection ellipses are rarely ever oriented to the detecting unit. Former EW. USS Halsey CG-23 (Leahy Class Missile Cruiser) SLQ-32(V)3 USS Kitty Hawk CV-63 (Aircraft Carrier) SLQ-32(V)4

[@ryu1940]

Yeah I really dislike that we don't have the ability to go to different states. It would be nice to still use commercial radar to blend in. I didn't know that the game wasn't modelling any detection of fire control radars, that is unfortunate.

[@RSProduxx]

USS Kitty Hawk! Had a model kit as a kid, was so proud of building it :)

[@julhelm1821]

I've always wondered why warships have commercial radars and navy specific surface search radars. What is the point of having an identifiable surface search set like an SPS-67 if you can just use the commercial surface search instead? I'm one of the developers btw and find the discussion here most interesting.

[@canadianeh4792]

@@julhelm1821 A bunch of reasons but mainly more power output and different bands (C vs X/S) you get different definition and range. Much better range on the SPS (wikipedia says 56nm so go with that) vs about 12 on the Furuno. As a former radar operator, it's also very annoying to have the brand new bridge officer who doesn't know what he's doing playing with the tuning on your radar. The Furuno is made for navigation, let them use that.

[@empress_alex]

Thing is with all of that, it'll make an already complicated and niche game even more complicated and niche. It'll drive away players like me who otherwise enjoy the game because it gets too much to handle, and more importantly it'll drive away anyone looking at the game who might buy it. They do need to have simplified mechanics and systems like what's in the game now in order to hold onto those players who aren't literal Navy veterans like yourself.

[@wiseguy3696]

During exercises we used sonar during EMCON. Highly effective if the other ship is in EMCON as well.

[@JohnVanderbeck]

I worked EW in the Air Force and this is well explained.

[@ryu1940]

Thank you! I appreciate that!

[@sprhowie]

Best discription would be a flashlight at night, helps you see really good out to a certain distance. However everyone around can see your light from much farther and can get basic ID off of that.

[@Raifboi]

You sound like someone that fell asleep in CIC like me! . CIWS tech here, Good explanation.

[@ryu1940]

hahaha I was fallin asleep down in sonar if we were just transiting around with nothing to do. On the FFG it was cool cus sonar was up next to combat and we shared a door so we could chill with the guys on watch up there but on the DDG sonar control is well away from everyone else. CIWS, were you an FC? I helped someone fix MT22 on the DDG and he let me do part of a pacfire...that shit was awesome!

[@Raifboi]

@@ryu1940 Yeah man, I was a FC. But the other FCs just lumped us in with the GMS since we were part of the mount 51 and 52 and the torp and 25 mike mike guys. Yeah I was on a cruiser, our STGs were in combat. Id come look at their stuff every once in a while when they were doing the weird active sonar sounds. Lol so much maintenance for those PAC fires.

[@ryu1940]

@@Raifboi oh man that’s really cool I went on a CG once because one of my sonar classmates in a and c school became an officer and gave me a tour when he was a department head on a random duty day. I was amazed at how much room there was. The forward sonar space I swear you could do exercises in there with all the floor space. one thing i don’t miss about those navy days was all the maintenance lol

[@binksterb]

@@Raifboi Comms here, I had to deal with you guys 🤣🤣🤣

[@christopherchartier3017]

I feel like CIWS would be a bitch to work on, or was it pretty reliable?

[@iron_talon]

I do hope one day they are able to add in more fine control of radars - EMCON isn't all or nothing as folks who've dealt with it in the fleet know and there are categories. The intermediate levels would only restrict the obvious identifier radars like a SPY-1 or a SPS-67. Modeling running around with only generic comnav radars would be fun since it could very well lead to the enemy misidentifying your emissions as neutral shipping, say. You'd still need to do stuff like not sailing in an obvious box formation around a HVU though. Probably a much more fun wrinkle to have if they get to implement Multiplayer someday.

[@ryu1940]

Yeah definitely. It would be nice to have finer EMCON controls. I would have such a blast if we all had coop or competitive multiplayer.

[@DocWatsonHistory]

We got you overhead. Nothing sails that is not tracked. Except, under.

[@crimsonsxrazor8243]

Keeping EMCON after being spotted is like "i can't see you you can't see me"

[@ryu1940]

haha that is a great way to put it!

[@CmdrTyrael]

I want to see more control over the radar sets. I should be able to a use non military surface search. To disguise the fact that I am a warship. In the games current state, i stick to EMCOM on my key vessels and try to utilise radar pickets. Obviously if i have AEGIS it gets used 😂. I personally think that NATO players needs to manage EMCOM well to minimise the WARSAW range advantage for AShM. good content mate 🫡

[@ryu1940]

Thanks man great channel btw! Yeah I really wish we had the ability to use commercial navigation radars and that the enemy wouldn't truly know who we were if we used that.

[@coolhand3328]

that philosophy makes total sense. is there any benefit to doing one (or both) of the following? * stay in emcon until the mig-23 gets a bit closer, but activate radars before he can see you. the idea would be for him to blunder into your sam envelope for a quick kill (I think I read something like this in Red Storm Rising a million years ago). will the game actually give you range data with esm contact from multiple ships (triangulation perhaps)? * spread out your formation and only activate radar on one ship. the idea would be to limit ships at risk by only revealing one target to the enemy, and perhaps get a sneaky kill on an enemy ship from an unexpected direction, or again get the mig to wander into sam range of a ship he cannot see. Love the video. Thanks.

[@ryu1940]

Thank you! Great ideas there, I do like that idea you had about staying in EMCON until the Mig-23 gets a bit closer but it really is a guessing game to us with how far he can actually see us. For most ships the visual horizon can be 10-12nm but for aircraft you can potentially see vessels tens of miles away so we play a dangerous game guessing if he hasn't or has seen us. The biggest problem with this is I was trying to play the scenario to what was briefed and unfortunately we are not allowed to fire unless fired upon. If I can't shoot first trapping him in my surface to air engagement range then I might as well use my sensors just to monitor him and potential other threats around me. You certainly can spread out wide and have what we call a radar picket, that ship would bang away on the radar and look out for the formation. That would work in other scenarios, in this one the Mig is going to blindly fly to your formation so no amount of deception is going to draw it away from the main force unfortunately.

[@Nattieboop]

Fantastic mini-guide! Hopefully it gains plenty of traction amongst new players wondering what the heck EMCON is. It’s been frustrating the past couple months or so watching preview players get really good ships sunk, such as these gorgeous Virginias, because they’re being silly with that game function. If this game had PVP at this point it would be an entirely different situation.

[@ryu1940]

Thank you for that! Yeah it was crazy seeing people put even the Aegis capable cruisers at emcon then be surprised when they detect a salvo at extremely close ranges.

[@jamesoke7414]

there is an alternate.. stay at EMCON, deploy your heli if you have one, send it low to your starboard side (in this scenario) then pop up to about 6000 and turn on it's radar. Same effect, but keeps your ships hidden until their plane flies overhead.

[@ryu1940]

Yeah definitely a great move but in this particular scenario we don't have helicopters so it unfortunately is a nonstarter. The helicopter would be great like you said because you'd catch those small boats fast!

[@Kaldosthesergal]

Fantastic video! This helps me a lot!

[@ryu1940]

@@Kaldosthesergal that is great to hear!

[@fraginz]

Yeah it's true. Generally I'd just turn on radar on whatever big ships I have because if the enemy have radar, I just assume these big ships got detected already. But I'm glad watching this video because: I didn't know I could do bearing-only launch for the harpoon! All this time, I thought it's just not implemented in the game 😅

[@ryu1940]

@@fraginz I’m glad you found that harpoon bit helpful!

[@kraquin]

You might want to make this or something similar a sticky note for all your threads. Just because information is publicly available doesn't mean you should repeat it. There is classified information that has spilled onto the internet and you can be held accountable for repeating it if you are a GOV/DOD employee.

[@ryu1940]

@@kraquin Oh yes definitely. Even if something is unclass you still can’t disclose it if it isn’t publicly released by the DoD or DoN. For instance unclass for official use only type documents. Every thing I talk about is either in public published books or comes from DTIC, the defense technical information center which is a massive library of documents publicly released by the DoD and included formerly classified material which was downgraded and released. I implore everyone to browse DTIC to see what’s been released officially. Parroting documents that are out there in the pubic domain which probably shouldn’t be on some other random websites will definitely get you in trouble. Stick to DTIC and other official sources.

[@FlyMysticalDJ]

This scenario is a pain. It's hard to detect the incoming missiles until there about 5km away.

[@ryu1940]

@@FlyMysticalDJ yeah it’s wild! Having played it a lot the incoming missiles are detected as close as 1nm or at best 5-7nm but I think the average for me is around 2-3nm. You basically only have 1 or 2 SM shots from Texas and Virginia to stop them before a hit occurs. Watching them come inbound visually is frustrating because you can see it when they come over the horizon but the ai crew of your flotilla won’t detect it.

[@Robert53area]

The only time i am in emcon is when i haven't been spotted i am out of tange of sonar ranges and i have helos surface search spotting for me. Even the dipping sonars from helos at above layers are really good at spotting targets better than surface search. Emcon goes off the immediately after i can tell they know where i am.

[@connycontainer9459]

I like the tactical scope this game provides, but I'm hoping that Modern Naval Warfare can fill the gap concerning individual stations that Sonalyst's Dangerous Waters left some 2 decades ago.

[@ryu1940]

I do like the tactical scope of this game but yeah I also long for something like Dangerous Waters again. I would love to drive another OHP around and have multicrew coop and pvp multiplayer.

[@ElGordodeAlemana]

​@@ryu1940 Modern Naval Warfare is Virginia-class SSN only.

[@zyhgar25]

I tend to have a small ship move ahead or behind with radar on.. might be risking a small ship but its better than the whole group getting shot at right?

[@ryanwade6052]

Thanks mate. Does anybody know if there is a list of the radar types, weapons etc I can use to look up? Doing the tutorials but often find I just need a quick reference.

[@ryu1940]

Thanks! I wish there was a typed up guide that just listed that stuff out...I did some looking around and havent found anything yet aside from a steam guide that covered the US surface to air missile stuff here: steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=3369355136

[@taskfroce80th95]

Wolfpack and Valcan needs to hear this. There is so many instance (espically Wolfpack) where them going EMCON even after the fight have started made them lost units otherwise saveable if they just kept their Air/Surface Radar on 😂

[@elloco99999]

I think you're absolutely right on this. But if you have multiple ships close together, would it make sense to turn only the radars of one ship on to not give away information about the rest of your ships, or is it better to have all radars on to increase the chance of spotting threats as early as possible? And would it make sense to launch one or more helicopters and use their radars instead of the radars of the ships?

[@ryu1940]

Great question! I would treat it really on a case by case basis depending on what the threats were. One thing about radar pickets is if they are within the formation they don't do a lot of good because the enemy if they detect them will want to close and investigate. Eventually ships in that formation will have to fire at what ever is investigating and the moment that happens the whole jig is up. I'd prefer in that case to have everyone using their sensors. If the enemy had more powerful vessels and we were within range of their weapons I would opt to just keep everyone quiet and use helicopters (with the caveat that I don't suspect they'd face an anti air threat from fighters).

[@aBoogivogi]

I hear a lot of people talk about the need to use of the shelf radar sets to avoid immediate classification by the enemy. One thing I wonder about though is when you do this. Are you also using the included civil equipment to visualize the radar output? Cause in my IT developer mind I would assume that you should be able to take the output from the civil radar and push it straight into the same system that interprets results from your advanced military radar set. I assume the analysis you get would be much more limited due to the nature of the radar set, but still it can probably do more with the data then the civilian software.

[@ryu1940]

Yeah they have these things called Indicator Groups and the most common one for radars is the SPA-25. You can take in multiple radar inputs and have it show up on the display. Mind you these sets in this era aren't really advanced the user still has to manually control gain and all that kind of stuff to have the best picture. Here is an unclass approved for public release manual that talks about it on page 37 out of 86 in the PDF maritime.org/doc/pdf/et4.pdf

[@Mighty_Ogrelord]

As a developer who works for a company that produces, among other stuff, Combat Management Systems (CMS), yes that is possible. You would typically have a console from the same manufacturer as the sensor on the bridge that displays the civilian radar. However that track data is also fed into the CMS, as is every other track data from any sensor. What a modern CMS does with that is called "Sensor Fusion" where the software tries to connect track data from different sensors to produce the larger picture. CMS from the timeframe of our beloved game here couldn't do that yet though.

[@Huwbacca]

God I've seen so many videos where people are come under missile attack, and then go "right, I'll turn emcon on". The element of surprise reacts to sunlight! It's gone. Dissolved. Want a new shipment of it? You gotta go all the way home and get more.

[@ryu1940]

lol oh man great description of that. Yeah once it is gone you ain't getting it back.

[@fernandoluis5117]

do you turn on the radars of all ships or just one while the others stay EMCON?

[@ryu1940]

If I break emcon with the formation the whole formation will go active is how I normally play it.

[@fernandoluis5117]

@@ryu1940 thanks for the answer

[@ryu1940]

@ no problem!

[@ratze7723]

Also: If you know the enemy has spotted you with early warning aircraft, there’s no point behind staying silent

[@ryu1940]

Very true!

[@Sniperahead]

1:30 well it also shoots at Sea or Land targets on "free"

[@ryu1940]

Yeah this is true and I think I've seen the devs say they are looking at fixing that behavior thankfully.

[@Sniperahead]

@@ryu1940 Isnt that easy? Setting up the SAMs and CIWS as air defence group on the ship that controlled by this button. everything else is offensive and dont get effected

[@ryu1940]

I don't know I am not a developer but it seems like they are aware it can cause headaches having ships launch at surface targets when we meant for them to only fire freely at jets/missiles.

[@binksterb]

Hey, shipmate former Estocin FFG15 sailor. Loving this game

[@ryu1940]

@@binksterb wow that is awesome! I was on the Rentz. Did Estocin have a towed array? By the time I was on Rentz the Navy got rid of all the short hulls but I could have swore none of them had towed arrays. In the game we have the short hull OHP but they all have the towed array. I’m curious if that is realistic or not. Welcome to the channel! I am loving this game as well. I’m so glad we have another Navy sim like this so many years after Harpoon and Fleet Command.

[@binksterb]

@ryu1940 Yes we had a towed array. We use to do war games, and the sub we were tracking would be sitting off our starboard side blowing us up. Played Charlie's and that has the Estocin, with towed array.

[@ryu1940]

@@binksterb thanks for the response! I really do like the Charlies scenario, it is a great ASW mission to just jump into.

[@binksterb]

@ryu1940 Yes, I agree

[@lolnaha]

Yeah I've noticed a lot of KZbinrs that come from cold waters are defaulting to emcon and having a harder time. Surface boats are not subs

[@ryu1940]

Yeah I definitely noticed that too before the game released. It seemed like the go to default tactic.

[@renato892-j4i]

Great video! I was ignoring what you said about that if we see vampires ascendig, they were almost shot at the point we detected them. I was just shooting in the general direction without knowing if they were shot at minimun-maximun range. By the way, I want to ask you if using air search radar only can be detected by enemy surface ships? thanks!

[@ryu1940]

Thank you and great question! Yes air search radars are emitting signals that will be picked up by enemy ESM equipment.

[@renato892-j4i]

@@ryu1940 Thankyou very much!

[@amishparadise428]

Underwater, Surface. Request ASW sitrep on that subsurface contact, reported bearing 220.

[@briansmithwins]

Do formations next. I keep seeing all these guys trying to arrange a formation when missiles are inbound. I've also never seen anyone have a radar picket out on the threat axis

[@ryu1940]

Unfortunately some of the scenarios just start you off in some bad formations. I often fiddle with the formation editor to spread guys out and ahead but as they maneuver to get on station, the action kicks off.

[@briansmithwins]

@@ryu1940 it does seem like a lot of scenarios start you out already inside the phone booth and then start the knife fight. I like scenarios more where you start out with the recon/counter recon phase and then get into a fight, preferable with a blind enemy

[@ryu1940]

yeah those scenarios are the type I would enjoy more as well!!

[@SnipersLaww]

with your fleet composition yea.. i wouldnt go emcon.. but if i had a ship that could launch a helo.. i would.. cause then i would send the helo out a ways from the fleet and then have it turn on its radar. anything trying to snapshot the helo thinking it was a surface ship would miss the fleet since its nowhere near the fleet. once shots are getting exchanged though everything goes on.. no point trying to hide once you are already found out

[@ryu1940]

Absolutely! Always good to consider what you have to work with before you make the decision to use or not use it. This tutorial was aimed at people who just put themselves at EMCON or back into EMCON kind of as a default state not quite understanding why it is used.

[@CdrMcNeil]

Negative ES, Positive Vibes

[@Aminuts2009]

I had a comment here, it's gone.. is there a reason?

[@nekomakhea9440]

Too many players seem to think EMCON works like a Romulan cloaking device.

[@ryu1940]

lol i love that

[@CapitaineNautilus]

Isn't the idea to keep the ships in EMCON and use helicopters with surface radars to detect threats without revealing your units' position?

[@ryu1940]

That is a way to use emcon in conjunction with other sensors/platforms like the surface search radar on a helicopter and that method totally works but in other scenarios like this one we don't get to use any helicopters so we've got to make a decision on using what our emcon stance will be. In real life things are more granular and we get to use other types of sensors on the ship while limiting some others but the game is not really set up for that so I often will evaluate what threats are out there and what their capabilities are then the make the decision to bang away with my radars or not.

[@CapitaineNautilus]

@@ryu1940 Thanks

[@kraquin]

@@ryu1940 I don't have this game. So the game doesn't include LAMPS III and link capabilities?

[@ryu1940]

@ no SH-60B at the moment but I have read in the past that it is something they will likely bring into the game in the future. I am not sure how the game handles link.

[@MrJemus]

why not EMCON on with the ships. Start Heli and use the Heli as your radar?

[@ryu1940]

@@MrJemus in this particular scenario we cannot do that because our ships do not have helicopters. That is certainly something you can do if you have helicopters though.

[@Mighty_Ogrelord]

The helicopter radar also won't spot air contacts. IF they spot a missile it's because they can visually see it.

[@ElGordodeAlemana]

Except that this mission is so bugged they will only detect the incoming missiles at their terminal phase when they are already in cwis range and not at 20-25 nm out with radar engaged like they should. Radar doesn't seem to function properly at all in this scenario. Even the incoming fighters have the ability to disappear from radar while being closer than 20 miles.

[@ryu1940]

I think the RCS of the missile in this mission as it is modeled in the game is too small. I've definitely had the same experience where you only see the silkworms 2-3NM left which really is only enough time to get one missile shot off.

[@sumalx]

The saddest part of this game is that im getting knowledge that i will never use outside the game.

[@ryu1940]

You could always join a navy haha

[@Incognito-vc9wj]

The UI could use a little tlc.

[@badgerattoadhall]

@ryo1940 dude since you were on a FFG7. i have always wondered what are the "windows" above the hanger/ flight deck on an FFG7 frigate? what does it look like inside?

[@ryu1940]

That is the helo control tower, it is pretty cramped in there with one chair and I think some radio/intercomm equipment. It was also painted black from what I remember. I was never in there during flight ops or anything like that but when we were in port the duty section when they do evening colors has to turn on all the ship lights and stuff for the flight deck security lights I believe were up there in that tower so I've gone in it a couple times (mostly I was duty gunnersmate tho so I sat around in the armory all day). There was also a bubble on the flight deck that had armored glass and that was usually where the LSO would be. You'd access this by going through where we had our gym.

[@badgerattoadhall]

@@ryu1940 thank you sir. very informative (and a fast response)

[@ryu1940]

my pleasure!

[@badgerattoadhall]

@@ryu1940 oh one more thing.... The aviation detachment. I have always found them "strange" are any of the enlisted like actual aviation bosun types like on the CV? You know like the purple fuel guy or the red ordinance guy? Did they mix with the ship?

[@ryu1940]

Great question! The air det would bring their own enlisted guys with them and we'd have a little berthing to put them all in. I don't remember if they air det did all the flight quarters positions if they were on board or not but when we didn't have the air det on board for deployment our own ship crew could do all the different flight quarters jobs like fire fighters, fuel guys, chocks and chains, and aircraft director. We only would have the air det on deployment, during normal training work ups and stuff like that we'd usually be by ourselves.

[@comchia4306]

5:05 given the recent liberation of Aleppo from Assad, that's a rather timely enemy. :P

[@ryu1940]

lol

[@djrbaker1]

NOOOOOOO. I wanted to see the resolution :(

[@ryu1940]

@@djrbaker1 hahah this brings up a question I had, would you be interested in seeing play throughs of scenarios?

[@djrbaker1]

@@ryu1940 Definitely, yes. Specially from someone who is an actual sailor.

[@KoishiVibin]

shrimply do not turn the radar off (this is a joke)

[@robertsistrunk6631]

Radars on, weapons free. Let God sort it out

[@ryu1940]

@@robertsistrunk6631 hell yes lol

[@ElGordodeAlemana]

Except god is against you in this scenario. Physics does not apply to the enemy here.

[@cheddar2648]

spoken bell nap

[@ryu1940]

Thanks!

[@ramjb]

My rule of thumb (and can be seen in my videos) is: Do not, ever, emit from your platforms unless positive you've been detected. Once the cover is blown, lit up all radars. And once whatever was detecting me is gone, then EMCON immediately and flank ahead away from my last known position ASAP For active emissions and detecting the enemy I emit from planes, helicopters, whatever...just not vessels. You're just asking for a first strike to be shoved down your throat otherwise.

[@The_Naes]

🤡

[@ryu1940]

The way that most scenarios (I would even suggest perhaps all scenarios) play out is either by way-points or triggers moving units in some cases to produce some sort of contact with the enemy forces. It does not appear to me that the enemy AI fleet commander can do proper area searches to figure out where our forces would be. They simply detect an emission and if we are in range they will open fire. If the enemy has weaker sensors they don't appear to switch to EMCON on their own this behavior is simply attached to the mission creator ticking a box or not. Because of this simplistic nature at the moment in early access you really don't need to be at EMCON. If you are simply out of range of potential enemy weapon systems then you do not need to be afraid of letting the enemy know your position by radiating your radars. You would be limiting yourself by going to EMCON always in situations where you have the technological superiority in sensor range or weapon range. A good example of this is the Strait of Hormuz transit missions. Being at EMCON would limit your domain awareness of enemy ships and enemy aircraft. If you had SH-2s up searching for enemy ships you would not know when the F-4s were coming in to kill the SH-2 if you have your air search radar off. If the SH-2 is shot down, now you don't have a surface picture. We can feel safe using radars in that scenario because there is no offensive iranian weapon system that can out range the harpoon and our SM missiles have good stand off against incoming iranian air threats. A scenario where I would suggest using EMCON from the start is the All your Guam Belongs to Us mission because the weapon systems on the Kirov greatly out range the Harpoons and your B-52s cannot get to the Kirov fast enough to sink it before it fires off a big salvo of SS-N-19 missiles. That scenario however is not a good one to play currently because the Alfa sub usually spawns most of the times and when it does it instantly radios your position to the Kirov who sinks your whole fleet usually. I believe they had to put the Alfa there because like I said earlier, I don't believe the AI is capable beyond simple helicopter probing searches to cover a big amount of area an sniff out your presence. This is all a long way for me to say it isn't necessarily true that going active with your radar emissions is inviting a first salvo exchange from your enemy. It really depends on what I've outlined here in the video about your sensors, enemy sensors, and weapon ranges/capabilities.

[@The_Naes]

@@ramjb 🤡

[@thebu383]

Couple things wrong here. Saying you’ll never detect a launch in Emcon or know where it’s from is false. 95% of aircraft, ships, and shore sites use either a specific radar solely for launch, OR a radar mode that is only used for that, informing the EW what just happened. Additionally most missiles, even today, aren’t sea skimming missiles. And even if they are, they turn on their radar approximately when they break the horizon (8-14 NM), giving plenty of time for EWs to launch countermeasures, use onboard jamming, and inform the rest of CIC so they can que up and use hard kill assets. A lot of the stuff you say here is accurate, but a lot of it is just blatantly wrong . There is almost no situation where running around with your radars in is better then being in Emcon.

[@ryu1940]

In terms of this specific mission in this specific game, you're absolutely wrong and I will post a video maybe in less than an hour showing you this same scenario played out at EMCON and it will definitively show you that you will not get any launch indications and you will not pick up the missiles until they are at 1-2nm from the ship.

[@thebu383]

@ if that’s the case, it’s unfortunate the game is model this way. I don’t think most people expect games to be 100 accurate and realistic, and if course we run into the issue of classified information , but it’s common knowledge even in the unclassified realm, that most missiles won’t be picked up via radar until they break the horizon, and at this point it’s where the missile, it’s an active radar seeker, it’s going to start to do its searches to find its target. If it’s a supersonic missile it’s going to be turning its radar on even further out.

[@kraquin]

Kinda mixing old with the new in your post. Passive cooperative targeting, 3rd party targeting, Hypersonic ASCM cruise altitudes, EO/IR seekers, EO/IR sensors on ships have required some rethinking of TTP's but that's for current day scenarios. Also, I'd drop that 95% to around 50%. *Some* ASMs/ASCMs at the time of this scenario had those requirements at launch but not 95%, several had ARM variants as well, and some bad guys could do 3rd party targeting for some weapons. EW was the coolest rating in the Navy 😀 but does have its limitations.

[@albertpietrosanu2667]

Good game but to be honest DANGEROUS WATERS was most imersive- maybe in the futers we can have some mods to make same feeling here, becouse that is really mising.

[@ryu1940]

I really loved Dangerous Waters. I hope one day in the future we have a part two. I'd just love the same game basically with visual upgrade and maybe some more advanced modelling but what we have in Dangerous Waters already is really good.

[@albertpietrosanu2667]

@@ryu1940 thanks for repply, appreciate!

[@xyz-hj6ul]

Yeah, well, there's a whole lot of tragically bad advice. First off, that 'MiG-23' is either going to the the S export model with the Jay Bird radar with 10nm performance in purely air to air mode, like the APQ-159 on an F-5E. Or some version of the ML/MLD with High Lark with modes and codes similar to the F-4J AWG-10. Range of 50nm but very poor air to surface mapping modes and almost no precision ISAR to be acting as some kind of targeter. This makes sense because the bigger radar, taken directly from downed F-4J in Vietnam, is an old fashioned PD set with limited PRF steps to be looking into wave clutter and almost no intention of being used as more than a CCIP system for freefall bombs. You might see the dot at the tope edge of your tiny little B-Scope display but it's only going to happen around 30-35nm and by that time, you've been shot, twice, with RIM-66/67 SM-2ER. It's also a 3ft dish with a fixed feed horn and limited scan patterns. If you're talking P-3s or some models of B-52 with the ocean reconnaissance mod, it's more likely a 1960s APS-80, 1970s APS-115 or (late) 1980s APS-137. The difference being it's got a helluva lot more power (50kw average, 143kw peak) and it's broadcasting through a 4.5 foot wide sail with variable feed horn that can either do a pencil beam or a 20` wide swath. This resuts in ranges on the order of 200nm though it will vary with sea state and jamming effects and only the APS-137 has the ISAR feature to both look into wave troughs for small little corvette and FAC-M targets and perform ISAR silhouette mapping to sort the mortes from the civilian traffic. Soviet era Big Bulge and Down Beat and Wet Eye sensors were similar on the Tu-95, Tu-22M and Il-38, respecitively (the latter is close enough looking to a P-3 that you have to check twice for the gobbler radome under the chin). The point here is that the Soviets aren't stupid. And air is far from the only way to look out to sea (OTH-B people) but if they don come a-lookin' don't expect it to be with a fighter that can only see you when it's within range of your AAW screen and cannot carry the kinds of AS-9 and AS-13 needed to wreck your day. If you want that kind of a threat, you need either a Backfire, Badger (era) or Su-24MP/MR, all of which have fairly sophisticated datalinks and satcomms as ways to go RORSAT/EORSAT to MPA to ELINT to Shooter with precision targeting handoffs well beyond what you even see them back with. Just because the Soviet surface navy sucked as a Blue Water sea control service doesn't mean their AVMF and Subs couldn't get the anti-Carrier job done. Which brings us to Link-4/11 and feeding the NTDS beast. Illuminator over here. Shooter over here. Threat over here. And again, depending on the era, we had Tracers, Trackers, Hawkeyes, Skywarriors, RA-5C and S-3A/B with which to do ASST, assuming there wasn't an Orion or BUFF base in range. So there would be no reason to assume that, just because you're EC you are blind. Because the radar feeds into a datalink which lights up everyone's consoles. This is essential when you have a 50-80nm range, entirely subsonic, boot knife as a sole ASUW missile and the other guy is firing first with Mach 1+ 96mi SS-9 Siren with a 500kg warhead that will blow apart anything smaller than a battleship it manages to hit. Take this up to an SS-N-22 with a speed of Mach 2.3 and range of 130mi and suddenly you are talking about a missile which will not only out range you by double but if fired, co-range, really close-in, (40-50nm) will hit you in aout 119 seconds vs. over 300 for the Harpoon. That's 1.9 vs. 5 minutes. And you're just screwed because the Soviet missiles can all take external hands once they are off the boat whereas the RGM-84 is deaf, dumb and blind until it reaches it's search lane vs. a 35-40 knot Fast Attack Craft that won't be anywhere close to where it fired from. They'll put the wheel hard over and go to plaid and your bottle rocket will go eyes open at an empty bag. This would remain true until the Blk.1A and Blk.II after the Cold War was officially done and we chose not to upgrade the Harpoon because we knew it was a piece of junk. The only way Harpoon works is if you're airborne, shooting first, not back, from a min radius of about 300-400nm out. Which means tanking if you're a Hornet. Take this up another scale, to the SS-N-12 Sandbox or SS-N-19 Shipwreck and you had better have all your offensive ASUW rocks in one sock because now the range is anything from 300mi to 600mi and it's unlikely that even the MPAs assigned to the battlegroup have the scope to see the threat before he guns you. Keeping in mind that at least 1-2 of those 16-19 carried Slava/Kirov missiles is a nuke with 500KT of yield. Ruin your whole day. If they are just using FAC-Ms, the Soviets are going to be doing it at squadron strengths of twelve hulls with with four boats on 90` degree increment steps to split the defenders and get real close, inside. Where possible, they will use a coastal clutter environment to hit the CSG/SAR/ARG from up and down lanes while protected on one side by the Harpoons disilke for landnav. They will then bring detachments 3-4 in with maximum shock and horror while you deal with the initial casualties. And fade like a fart in the gale. They would never be blue water, that far out, and they would never be there in such small numbers. All of which effects your EC condition because EMCON is about hunting not fighting. In fact, the only reason to be at EMCON once the shooting starts is: 1. Some missiles have IRH seekers in the belly. Those damn antenna get hot in R&R mode. 2. Some missiles have ARH seeker mode alternatives. SRBOC doesn't work if there is a great big RF search light shining up the middle of it. 3. If you are using SLQ-49 or Mk.53. Both of which require some setup and quite a bit of knownledge in terms of wave geometry and seeker function that we don't need to go into here. If Sea Power doesn't include the ability to go active jamming, with decoys, as well as have the ability to go broadcast vs. 'registered user' networked into the NTDS, so thaat remote targeting and high EW conditions apply, then everything is basically a mega-pew-pew arcade fight. If you don't give the Soviets the ability to rock-paper-handgrenade the fight with nuclear weapons, there is no point in tactics of small units, traps and decoy formations. All of which is well known, in the public release because the nature of (Overhead and HALE BAMS) gave basically made surface combatant warfare a game of turtles on a basketball court. Disaggregation be hanged. You watch, Sea Power is going to be like DCS: an overpriced cinematic maker that is completely worthless as a tactical gameplay system because it doesn't allow the features that would make it really good. Oh well...

[@dfgiuy22]

Wanted to get this game but it sounds like Harpoon is still leaps and bounds ahead. Its a shame, there is a serious market out there for this kind of thing but i'm so tired of seeing half @ssed games that never get finished properly, supported properly or just flat out scams. I'm waiting another 6 months, see if they can get the program to do basic things like launch fighters, set up caps etc. Man there is so much potential but.... anyway, sigh. Back to doom scrolling thots and looking at which next meme coin i can potenitally lose my house on.

[@ryu1940]

I'm having a lot of fun with this game and I even bought it twice lol One for me and a copy for a buddy. I can say I haven't played Harpoon since I was a kid but I'm certainly going to pick up the microprose release of it when gets relaunched. I can say with my experience so far having played 50-60 hours in it already it doesn't feel unsupported, scammy, or like it is half assed. The dev even reached out to me for some of my insight which I thought showed a lot of eagerness to improve the product. I am also looking forward to the enemy carrier launching fighters automatically as well as setting up barcaps for friendly fighters with some new method of maybe drawing a box on the map and just letting aircraft navigate on their own inside of that. Overall though I haven't had this much fun in a navy game a for a few years.

[@kraquin]

Harpoon? Aren't you playing Command: Modern Operations? But yes, Sea Power is eye candy and less micromanaged.