Sea Power - The EMCON Myth from Former OHP FFG Sailor

[@Wolfpack345]

Great video. When I Initially started playing Sea Power I used my radars often. Typically, almost immediately. I got a lot of backlash in the comments saying I should NOT do this. I have kind of overcorrected in that regard, trying to manage EMCON and as a result overmanage. Anyways great points, as for folks being contrarian that is just KZbin. Personally, I think lot of people think you should manage EMCON like in Red Storm Rising. Which works when you are playing hide and seek in the Atlantic but not so much in a lot of these Sea Power engagements when things are so close.

[@charliegiammarco5178]

Hey it's the guy who single handedly convinced me to buy sea power, UBOAT, and war on the sea!

[@slateslavens]

I was hoping you'd see this. Glad you did!

[@alexd6557]

@@charliegiammarco5178 straight up, ive got about 5k hours in DCS and somehow wolfpacks videos started getting recommended to me and if it werent for that i probably wouldnt have gotten sea power, its the most fun ive had in a game in a long time

[@Cg23sailor]

Hey Wolfpack, I remember one video where you tried to go back into EMCON after an attack wave and I was like What the hell are you doing?!? They already know where you are, and you're just blindfolding yourself. EMCON... Is a tool. and like any tool. it has its uses only in specific situations. and the vast majority of these canned scenarios are NOT the right situation. One of the few scenarios where EMCON is appropriate... is the one where you Ambush the Soviet invasion Fleet off the North Cape with missile boats hiding in the Fjords.

[@ryu1940]

Thanks man I love all your stuff and I really enjoyed watching you play it before the game was releasing. I could definitely see in the comments everyone yelling at you to go to emcon lol oh well Yeah it’s definitely a tool to use and once the cat is out of the bag or you suspect the cat is out of the bag it’s time to bang away with your advanced sensors and try to get as much awareness as possible. Thanks for watching man I really love watching your channel over the years and it’s pretty cool to see you comment on mine!

[@JohnSmith-xj2bd]

Quick note from a USN veteran with 20 years active duty and 22 years developing weapon systems for USN to say ryu1940 is absolutely correct. The decision to use EMCON is completely dependent on the operational situation based on mission needs, assets available and threat assessment. I can't think of a single situation where a naval commander could think there is a universal application for EMCON based on any single factor. I think the game does a wonderful job bringing that point home.

[@MrRem7600]

it also makes it extremely tough if you're playing a scenario for the first time and don't know what is appropriate until it's too late. I just played a scenario last night where the default position was emcon - and I had been thinking about ryu's videos on it, so went to air search on. The moment I did I had a flood of missile launches and it took two of my ships out.

[@robanson32]

Same comment I had in his last video- A scenario by definition in SeaPower almost exclusively necessitates having no EMCOM because you know you're about to get into contact

[@polecat7377]

​​@@MrRem7600 My gathering is that in "critical" scenarios, turning EMCON on/off should be like checking a pulse - you should turn on radar once inawhile to get a quick assessment of your battle space, but keeping it on is going to turn your ships into a big red bullseye, however if your ships have already been detected and fired at, turning radar off is going to leave unable to effectively defend themselves. So its useful to not over rely on radar so you can gain positional advantage, but not relying on radar enough will cause your ships to wander into engagements without situational awareness. Tough balance, but critical once you get a feeling for it.

[@kylestoddard2881]

Who was saying you should always be on EMCON? That's suicide unless you've go Hawkeye or Sentry support. At a minimum one air and one surface search radar should be on from one ship in the TF/TG without AWACS. How on Earth are you detecting any missile or enemy ship without it, before it's to late?

[@MrRem7600]

@@polecat7377 i'm aware of all of that. Unfortunately the way the game is at the moment, activating any radar or air search for just seconds can result in a tidal wave of missile launches, which I experienced in the last scenario I played. I've played other scenarios where activating radars doesn't. I think this is more down to either inconsistent AI within the game, or it's somehow adjustable or based on how the scenario has been programmed. Either way it means there is no clear answer going into a new scenario for the first time, and trying to apply real world tactical logic like Ryu or the OP is here is pretty irrelevant, because at the moment it's still just a game, and it's still very early access.

[@Aminuts2009]

I was an operations specialist 3rd class PO on USS Mississippi CGN-40. I am a plank owner. We never sailed with em-con. It wasn't done. The only times we did do it is if we were playing the role of a Soviet Ship in a war game. Then we sank Nimitz in one exercise. Even had a Russian Naval Battle Flag hung up in CIC when we did it. After that we all went to Puerto Rico and proceed to drink all the beer on the island. Good times.

[@Aminuts2009]

Also, the missile doctrine for this era was: Shoot, Shoot, Look, Shoot. So the two missiles per target. Watch the results and repeat if needed.

[@ryu1940]

Two shots is definitely what I like to do in this game. Awesome sea story sinking the Nimitz BZ!

[@kraquin]

EMCON is always in effect. It may not be restrictive but a condition nonetheless.

[@Cg23sailor]

I am reminded of a line from John Wayne's film, "In Harm's Way" CAPT TORRY: "Radio Pearl and tell them we have taken two Japanese torpedoes, will advise" BURKE: And break radio silence, sir?" CAPT TORRY: "Burke, don't you think the Japanese know where we are by now?"

[@lunaticfringe3126]

I designed that mission for Sea Power. ,It’s exciting to see someone featuring my mission in a video. I really appreciate you pointing out that while EMCON has its place, relying on it too heavily can be a fatal mistake. As a retired USAF NCO with experience on AWACS I know this all too well.

[@ryu1940]

Man that is awesome! It is really a great one to quickly show what kind of SA you can gain or lose depending on your posture. Thanks!

[@dmsdmullins]

I was AWACS too, Tinker 2001-2007.

[@peted2770]

EMCOM only works when you have other assets relaying info to your ships. Even then, if you have missiles inbound, you better get your radars up fast.

[@twolmo]

I did an exercise in the Caribbean in the late 80's with USS O'Bannon and USS San Jacinto (she was brand new) where we operated as a SAG with out any air cover... we had our radars on the whole time... and back then that SPY-1 was amazing... like magic... the SPS-40 on our ship we called the Ray Charles radar... I 100% agree with you on this.

[@adamcoenraads5423]

I can't believe the opportunity you missed here to call it the Raydar Charles

[@ErdenizSANLAV]

I think there was a HUGE overemphasising of EMCON back when the game was being presented by youtubers before the release. I always felt like "uuhh... you're just blinding yourself?". Sure one shouldn't broadcast "hello, I'm hereabouts" right away but, as soon as you get detected, fired upon etc, the jig is up, and by refusing to use expensive whizz-bang sensors on your vessels, you're just blindfolding yourself.

[@artruisjoew5473]

The big factor is that AI is stupid and won’t launch until they can PID you as hostile, and they can only visually ID you if you remain in EMCON, effectively preventing the enemy from launching an attack unless they have a unit super near by or have a submarine, essentially always give you the first shot.

[@Heldermaior]

The radar horizon for a sea skimming missile using an antenna 20m high is 7 nm. That is about 17s to impact. EMCON for the sake of EMCON reduces this already short window even further.

[@xenoaltrax485]

Hmm, I think for 20m height, you mean rf horizon is a little under 10nm.

[@dougroberts3840]

This is why I put a helicopter up about 60m high with its air/surface radar on, I believe it increases the range, though I could be wrong. But I'm trying......lol

[@geeronald]

Current Navy AG here. Very nice job explaining EMCON in this video as well as your previous ones. EMCON is great for when you're hiding from the enemy over large distances, or from pesky AGIs whenever they follow us. I believe that some people are too scared to turn on their radars out of fear for being detected or losing the element of surprise with an attack. In my own opinion, I would rather the enemy know where I am if I believe they have found me, and be safe with my radars on, ready to engage any target, rather than questioning if that unknown radiating track has found me or not.

[@ryu1940]

Totally agree!

[@kennethschlegel870]

"rotating and radiating.." that phrase triggers ptsd for me 😂 POOW on the 1MC "There are personnel working aloft on board USS Cape St George, do not rotate or radiate any electronic equipment or light of gas turbines."

[@ryu1940]

@@kennethschlegel870 hahahah my brain always defaults to saying it that way. It has been burned into memory. lol

[@Eric-683]

There are men working in the sail. Do not raise rotate or radiate from any mast or antenna. Do not sound the ship's whistle, do not cycle the fairwater planes. There are men working in the sail.

[@ryu1940]

@ my dad was a submariner for 20 years I definitely heard that word passed once as a kid when I visited the boat and they had some Nav ETs working in there.

[@ChaosphereIX]

I just gotta say I love seeing the Sea Power content creators coming together in the comments and in their videos, providing feedback and tactics and designing scenarios for each other. Ryu, Wolf, Stealth, Brother Munro...thank you and keep supporting each other!

[@ryu1940]

All those guys are really great!

[@Seagull780]

I tried taking on a ticonderoga with a bunch of MiG-17s in the editor. I accidentally left it on emcon at first so with an initial flight of 12 MiGs, around 8 or so were able to close in and bomb their target. Taking the ship off emcon increased the needed number of MiGs to 45, and only 2 survived long enough to actually hit their target.

[@dakka123]

With air search radar, your vision is augmented.

[@blayas5239]

Some people don't understand that the EMCON practice has specific applications and moments to be used, other than that it is just self-blinding.

[@brianmartin6016]

I've never played any modern naval simulator in EMCON unless it was a covert type of op. That's why the development of radar and sonar was so important in achieving victory over adversaries during wartime operation(s). WW2 mainly thinking here and many naval encounters since. You can't hit what you can't detect until it's too late like ryu just demonstrated here. Enough with EMCON unless ordered to do so. Thanks ryu!

[@ryu1940]

Thank you!

[@157RANDOM]

Jingles had some good takes about EMCON in his most recent sea power video, as he talks about situational awareness and being aware of the enemies' capabilities compared to your own when deciding on your EMCON practices.

[@willreynolds11]

It's a good thing ryu posted the same video first tbh

[@ryu1940]

I made an EMCON video about this very bit a few days before he made that video. I don't claim to own an idea but the timing of that video release given he had the game for so long before us was a bit odd. If he did learn from my video that would be awesome and I would have loved a shout out.

[@157RANDOM]

@ryu1940 I presume he got the info (or some at least, as he wasn't by any means a radar operator or commander or anything) from his own 22 years in the Royal Navy. However, he also may have seen your video, either that or he saw there was EMCON discourse and decided to chime in. I moreso mentioned it to bring up that multiple creators have had some good discussions on EMCON in Sea Power (and irl)

[@mauwalker]

Dude. You did the work! I’ll take your view over internet experts all day every day!

[@mikeck4609]

Makes sense to me that EMCON is great in the middle of the ocean or approaching an open shore (meaning like the coast of Norway as opposed to entering an enclosed gulf) AND you have an E-2C or other airborne surveillance platforms that can tell you there is an enemy around long before he sees you. On the other hand, when you KNOW the enemy is around and having those surveillance platforms doesn’t guarantee you see them first….not so much. For example, in the Gulf of Oman approaching the Persian gulf. Your E-2C isn’t going to give you enough notice that a land based ASM site has fired on you to enable you to fire up defenses in time. When you know the enemy is LIKELY around and can hit you before you detect them, why WOULD you sail around blind. Like everything else in warfare, tactics are dictated by situations and capability: yours and the enemies. Applies to the infantry as well (8 years 11B)

[@Dcook85]

There's always gonna be know-it-all detractors. I respect your service and your expertise! Thanks for your very helpful content!

[@ryu1940]

Thank you so much for the support, I appreciate it!

[@Locutius11]

Thank you for the excellent gaming tutorials and naval education. I am only a dozen hours in the game - formally a Harpoon devotee. When I first started playing the game missions I continually saw instructions to run EMCOM which seemed strange but I thought okay I'll play along. It did not take long before this just seemed akin to suicide. NOW the only time I will run EMCOM on the major/capital ships is IF I have overhead Hawkeye or Sentry aircraft on full burn - preferably overlapping circles of surveillance. As soon as I am in "PROBABLE" detection range of enemy forces I go active as the margins that play to my advantage are statistically diminished. Trying to find a way to turn on radar range circles in the 2D map as a guide. I love the visuals of the 3D screen but usually play the 2D map full screen a la Harpoon at the cost of enjoying the 3D show :( Still learning many many things like missiles not firing due to FCR or saying target beyond range when they are not etc.

[@ryu1940]

Great work with the emcon, as far as I know you cannot display radar range circles on the map. You would have to manually draw and attach it to a unit like I often do with drawing weapon range circles.

[@dougroberts3840]

Thanks for this, ever since I started playing this game I've always used my radars, call me crazy, but every movie or video of Naval ships I've seen, I've never seen one where the radars are off, then I saw your other video about turning EMCON off and I was like, 'Well that makes sense.' the only thing I don't do, is bang away with the sonar, don't know if I'm doing it right, but it seems to be working, so I'll take it.

[@ryu1940]

awesome work!

[@fraginz]

I'm with ryu here. TLDW: US Navy ships would've sunk against the houthis if they keep their radars off. Same problem, slightly different era.

[@iron_talon]

Well yes, but potentially no. I doubt the Houthis have any meaningful ESM detection gear handy that renders EMCON useful against them, so that's a bit like hiding out of sight from a blind man by putting yourself in emcon against them. ESM is also a good deal more intricate in real life than is modeled in game, especially in modern times. Softkilling the missiles the Houthis have is pretty straightforward, but drones are a different matter. In all I doubt the ships would have been sunk if they were at emcon - it's just there is zero point to be at emcon in the first place in such a situation.

[@Erik_Wulf]

Thank you for the video, I am still learning how a lot of things work in modern naval combat (and how they work within games such as Sea Power, Cold Waters,...) as I don't have that much experience in such strategic naval games. This video was very helpful. For that particular reason I am watching a lot of gameplay videos and try to learn from the advices given in the videos or the mistakes happening. Ofcourse, there is always room for other suggestions or pointing out mistakes that could be avoided or sharing opinions how things might work and how to use them. However, I saw a lot of very rude comments under most of the videos from different youtubers playing Sea Power, regarding how realistic the portrayed mission is, how to deal with certain situations, ships and threats, and so on... Very sad to see, as most of this comments seems to come from armchair experts who are thinking they know everything better. Because of that, it can be very confusing for new players who are still trying to figure out how things work, how to deal with certain situations and how to correctly use certain tools and systems. Videos like this one show in a very simple and understandable way, that those armchair experts are not necessarily right and that trying things out in different ways to see the different outcomes often is just the best and easiest way to figure things out, rather to listen to those toxic comments...

[@ryu1940]

Thank you very much for that!

[@Raifboi]

CIWS tried its little heart out. ( your videos keep getting sent to me so I keep watching)

[@Chris249224]

One thing I learned after playing a lot of missions in this game (both the “vanilla” and usermade missions) is that submarines are the best counter against EMCOM. They can detect your ships from quite long distances and once the game identifies your ships as hostile, the AI will most likely go weapons free on your ships. So with this in mind, if you play an scenario where the enemy has one submarine somewhere, it’s most likely that the AI is well aware of your ships whereabouts and it eventually will classify them as hostile and start shooting missiles at your ships, thus making EMCOM pretty much useless.

[@miguelprima5937]

is it possible IRL for submerged subs to relay passive sonar info to the rest of the fleet?

[@Chris249224]

@@miguelprima5937 Tbh I don’t know much about IRL situations, my only guess is that the submarine is the only one knowing about the enemy ships, unless goes to P. Depth and sends a message with what the passive sonar found to the rest of the fleet. But in game, all of your units are always sharing what each one sees no matter what.

[@Chris249224]

@@miguelprima5937 But now that I remember, I saw a video explaining that modern submarines can deploy a towed antenna when they want to send and receive messages without having to be at P. Depth. So I guess it is possible for them to relay sonar info.

[@ryu1940]

Good question but can't really talk about real life capabilities.

[@HaZardousLP]

I play a lot of CMO and EMCON is often useful in those scenarios because contacts tend to be over a MUCH greater distance than in Sea Power. Even then, I read somewhere that has been really useful for me since: If you even suspect the enemy knows your position, abandon EMCON because they probably do. However, there's a fair bit to be said about using other assets to reduce the need to emit on your ships, particularly in larger convoys e.g. AEWACs, ASW planes/helos and so on.

[@ashe83]

In reference to the aircraft shot down - Since these are SARH missiles that can't be fired mad dog like a fox-3, how realistic is it that the FCR finds and illuminates the target without cueing from the air search? I get that it's probably possible, but wouldn't that be somewhat of a challenge IRL? Could it use the RWR emissions to get bearing/elevation?

[@sgtrpcommand3778]

Not a sailor, but from what I understand that's pretty much exactly it. The ESM suite should give you a pretty good line of bearing to the target (though I don't know about altitude... I guess it doesn't since we see alt=0 in the aircraft track), so the FCR should just be able to do a quick up and down search to find its target. I guess. Hopefully someone who actually knows what they're talking about can respond because I'm curious too.

[@xenoaltrax485]

​@@sgtrpcommand3778 Yes, you're correct on that, the FCR can do a quick vertical scan on the bearing provided to obtain lock. For a similar situation, think of the US Navy OHP frigates: their air search was via a SPS-49, a 2-D radar (though the Mk92 CAS did have a rudimentary 4-level air search capability) so the Mk92 STIR FCR had to do a quick elevation scan on the bearing data from the SPS-49 to actually lock onto the target for the SM-1 to engage. As for ESM, the current SEWIP Block 2 now provides elevation measurement for the SLQ-32 array antennas, but the time period of the game precludes this upgrade, so again you're correct, there is no elevation measurement in the game for this time period. Btw, also not a sailor, just a "fan" of the work done by R&D shops like JHU APL for the Navy.

[@th3narrat0r5]

It may come from Nebulous, at least that is where it came from for me. I stopped bothering with EMCOM after the first mission I tried in sea power. Actually now that I think about it, the universal EMCOM school of thought may come from Cold Waters, where emitting = death. Be it banging away on active sonar or using the radar mast.

[@neurofiedyamato8763]

EMCOM makes sense for submarines like in Cold Waters. But not really on surface ships.

[@gotanon9659]

​@@neurofiedyamato8763 It does on surface ship. It just doesn't apply to the state of the game right now as pretty much all the scenarios is geared to expecting Contact and active shooting type one

[@CharliMorganMusic]

I think the idea of emcon in nebulous is ridiculous. You're in space. You're detectable no matter what you do because you can't keep your ship at zero infrared forever; it impossible.

[@gagrin1565]

@@CharliMorganMusic Not every sci-fi combat game can be Children of a Dead Earth.

[@th3narrat0r5]

@ yeah nebulous has that but suspension of disbelief and all. I find it fun personally.

[@montemoore8606]

EmCom is a tool. Just like other tools, it has its place. Depending on the mission and threat assessment, my own thought is that a TF needs at least one platform providing air/sea search if not all of them. If you are using EmCon to "hide" a group or particular ship, consider having a radiating platform off set from the "hidden" group. A helicopter or two at least. But also consider that your "hidden" asset may not really be hidden. Fot example, a sub may have you figured out from its passive sonar...

[@TAnders877]

I typically turn on Air Search the moment Is see their helo's searching for me within a reasonable distance. I have not learned all of the small nuanced play yet so this is my safe method of detecting launches. I haven't really been in a scenario where I've been fired on purely based on Air Search being active (yet). Lately I have been cheezing the AI by launch land attack tomahawks at them to soak up some missiles and force them to make a lot of noise lol.

[@alexd6557]

def gonna try this

[@krisvires]

To Radiate, or not to Radiate; that is the question. Whether tis nobler in Tactics to remain at EMCON and hide from the Vampires of outrageous enemies. Or to Radiate, and by Radiating- to detect and destroy them. 1MC: *Bosun's Whistle: "Now Hear This; Hands Aloft- do not rotate, radiate or energize any electronic equipment until further notice."

[@ryu1940]

That started off like it was written as the new year's midnight deck log entry lol bz

[@krisvires]

@@ryu1940 Thanks, I couldn't remember the right wording for the "rotate, radiate" thing, so I just took a stab at it. Not bad for an old Tanker. I feel a kinship with you Swabbies- tanks have decks and hatches too. :)

[@atigerclaw]

Is there some kind of internet argument going on about EMCON that I don't know about? This is the third video I've seen that's titled more or less: "You don't know what you're doing!" Just follow the glorious guidance of Monty Python's PSA Video: "How not to be Seen" "This is USS Admiral Chester Nimitz of First Naval Task Force Atlantic Thunder, United States Navy. USS Nimitz, would you please, turn on your Radar?" *SHIPWRECK IMPACT* "This, is USS Ticonderoga. Ticonderoga, would you please, turn on your radar?" ... "Ticonderoga has learned the first lesson in not being seen: Not turning on his radar. ... However, we've long since been painting him with OUR, radar." *SHIPWRECK IMPACT*

[@andrewl9169]

Basically, we have a high-level sim, and the Navy guys have their dream sim, so they are popping up to shit on gamer logic with real-world experience... in a sim that by all metrics is pretty good at replicating the systems. When it was first released, we had mostly gamers advocating for always being at EMCON, and then the big boys showed up and dumpstered that. It's honestly more about threat assessment, which is a complex subject. That said I do find EMCON just gets you killed by a threat you never saw.

[@atigerclaw]

@@andrewl9169 I get the details, I was more curious if there was some kind of flame war in the background. Also, I'd say the scenarios give a little bit of an unfair push the way they're set up. The scenarios where you're 'made' before you even begin just have the attackers already coordinating an assault, as if you went in blind and put up signal flares. That speaks more of a deliberate 'lesson' right at the start. But the one I'm thinking of, from Jingles' video the other day, gives you a counter-intuitive briefing and then doesn't have an aside or parenthetical note pointing out that its down to YOU to follow that, or break out on your own instincts.

[@egoalter1276]

EMCON is useful, and would more then likely have seen extensive use by USN unjts in a shooting war with a near peer opponent, because unlike Iran or Vietnam, the soviets had the assets to reenact Midway with a CSABG if they got a good fix on it. Of course in peacetime patrol you dont go EMCON, but knock it off with the argume ts from authority by sonar operators. This is flotilla level tactics, so until we hear a general officer speak about it none of these people are any better qualified than a civilian eho bothered to read the relevant manuals.

[@MatthewJoyceAUS]

It always depends on your situation. If they don't know your position and you are not trying to find them with your ship sensors, by all means use EMCON. As soon as they have your position and are within weapons envelope it's not just pointless to keep your sensors off, it's flat out suicidal.

[@GlowingSpamraam]

Granted in the case of anti ship missiles i would have expected the ships EW equipment to detect the emissions from the active radar seekers and consequently allow you to know they are coming from much further out Air search would still be needed to properly engage them Granted in this case it seems to be the heat seeking SS-N2C so no emissions would be detected

[@ryu1940]

Yeah in this case it is the SS-N-2C so we're not going to get really any indication other than visual at around 2nm or 3-5nm with radar. Also with just the regular styx, I believe their terminal homing doesn't being until around 6nm iirc so only using ESM still doesn't give you too much time. I do think the Styx RCS should be larger. I think right now it is really small when I look in the F10 debug menu.

[@iron_talon]

@@ryu1940 Yeah even with the instant ID of an incoming emitter (we trained to try and do it under 30 seconds) the game gives you you've got less than a minute before impact with something like a Styx (If it were a Sunburn or a Shipwreck? We'd be toast if ESM was the first thing to pick it up). Typically you'd be queued into potential threat axis and associated targeting emitters so you'd know it was inbound well in advance of seeing it even if you were still in full emcon (which you wouldn't be in that situation) Honestly if there was a Tico with a SPY-1 running in formation you probably are seeing something as fat and beefy as a Styx at the horizon with emitters on. I don't think Sea Power has a model for the slope of the earth and emitter/target height though. I don't know as much about the SPS-48's performance in that kind of scenario. I think people are missing that Sea Power isn't exactly modeling real world performance 1 to 1 and leading to some really skewed engagement results compared to how things probably go down IRL

[@nucleargandhi3759]

That's kinda what always confused me with people saying to never have radars on in this game. It obviously gives your position away, but unless you are in a situation where you know that you are not detected, it really doesn't matter cause the enemy knows where you are anyways. The situations where you need complete stealth rather than just flipping it on and off, or leaving it on full time are farther between than people make it out, and it all goes out the window anyways once you get that enemy MiG coming right at you.

[@ShadowGJ]

EMCON is always circumstantial. It depends on your estimated opposition and whether you can guess how much information the enemy has on you. In this particular scenario, soon there's red naval (?) AEW&C in the air, which will spot you but not identify you if you're in EMCON. A balance can be struck, and use only one ship's radars (another factor: you don't have any other eyes anywhere). That at the very least can take the heat off of the cruisers, and you can position the detector escort in such a way her sisters can shield her, if you know the vector of the attack and have enough time. However, even if you're in EMCON, it goes out of the window the moment enemy aircraft get close enough to visually identify you. Something you ought to prevent at all times. All of this kind of relies on nebulous knowledge of the AI, which doesn't engage without positive identification. But considering the missiles flying about, I'm not sure when exactly it recognizes specific hostile intent and tags an otherwise unconfirmed contact hostile itself. A Syrian side human, with human reasoning and assumptions, would fairly quickly recognize the line of contacts as hostile.

[@patton610]

What I often do is have an ffg or lighter ship use all sensors and the rest stay dark. This seems to allow others to actively launch against vampires at range but it doesn't seem likely that this situation reflects reality. NTDS doesn't equate to coop engagement capability. But, it seems like the radiating ship gets targeted first and most.

[@keetam_worth82]

You should be emcom BEFORE the bomber knows where you are :) If the enemy already knows your position or bearing, being emcom will be quite dangerous.

[@ryu1940]

Oh yeah if you see jets coming right at you then you've got to assume they know where you're at and being at EMCON will needlessly blind you.

[@barbe6503]

Great stuff mate. Good video.

[@ryu1940]

Thanks man, I appreciate that!

[@cideltacommand7169]

The only time you use encom is when you are relatively certain they dont know where you are. A random patrol aircraft can pick up your ESM and just decide to investigate if it isnt in the library if you decide to blast air search radar.

[@thebonedss]

Hi I wonder why the SLQ 32 suite doesn't detect incoming missiles, I'm pretty sure Virginia had the SLQ 32 V3 with active jamming, also under sensors there is no engage with offense ECM , it seems active ECM is only available on EA6 aircraft

[@ryu1940]

Great question! The missiles in the scenario are the SS-N-2C which I believe have terminal IR guidance so ESM would not detect a terminal guidance radar system. Also in general with the SS-N-2, they don't turn their terminal guidance on until about 6 nautical miles out which isn't much time to detect with ESM.

[@Focusonbehind]

3:40 yes that means visual.

[@ryu1940]

Thanks!

[@tartiflette6428]

Genuine question: The arguments are often to keep everything on ENCOM or nothing at all. Wouldn't it be a good compromise to only have one may two ships radiating while the rest stay quiet? That way you get the benefits of both seeing threats, but also keeping the enemy guessing the strength of your force? Of if there even is a force at all there and not just one isolated ship. This could play into the missile sponge idea too, keeping the radiating ship isolated but slightly behind the best AA platform to maximize its chances of survival.

[@ryu1940]

Great question and you can certainly do that, I just don't because while the AI doesn't do this right now I imagine it will in the future...if I bang away with one radar picket and say they have a TU-95RT who spots other radar contacts in formation it may know that the picket is an Adams class through ESM and radar track correlation but it should understand the radar targets behind it going the same speed and course are likely enemy vessels. So to me, I'd rather keep all my radars on and just have the all around domain awareness if I'm going to be discovered anyways.

[@tartiflette6428]

@@ryu1940 Interesting, I wish I could roleplay a very cold blooded admiral and send a sacrificial lamb one way while the rest of the fleet moves in a different position and get the enemy to over-commit against that one visible target thinking there is an entire force there. Maybe once the AI gets a bit better at the game, one can hope.

[@albertpietrosanu2667]

Good test. It is any mode to change distances and altitude in meters?

[@ryu1940]

I am not sure I understand the question I am sorry.

[@ej1366]

Nice!

[@ryu1940]

Appreciate the support!

[@ycplum7062]

There are four ways (off the top of my head) that you can detect an approaching missile. 1. Some other system tells you where the missiles are via a data link. 2. You are using an Electro/Optical system like FLIR or IRST to detect the heat signiture of the missiles. Not sure if it was available in the 1980s. Also, they have much shorter detection ranges than radar, assuming good weather conditions. 3. The missiles are using active radar homing and you passively pick up their radar. If they are using semi-active homing, you will pick up the launching unit's radar (indicating you are being targetted), but not the missiles. 4. You are using radar. But Hey, what do I know? I am just an old Army guy. lol

[@AndySabola11]

5. Eyeballs - lookouts spotted the exocet coming at the Sheffield in the Falklands war. Can't do much at that point though.

[@luigi-op6mq]

I'd be curious to see if a helicopter's surface search radar would pick up missile launches and, if yes, at what distance? My understanding is that if you have superior sensors airborne (AWACS etc.) then broadcasting your fleet's position will only hinder you, but without an air wing, I often find myself relying heavily on my helicopters' sensors to find and track targets, without really knowing their effectiveness as an early warning to missile attacks

[@xenoaltrax485]

Nope, the helos in game only have surface search radars. You can also see in Stealth17's latest game video, he had a helo up which only saw surface contacts, then when he turned on his ship air search radars, a whole bunch of incoming AShMs were detected, some already as close as ~5nm away, helo radar didn't see the AShMs at all.

[@NavyOldsaltGamer]

21 years in the Navy and I agree. EMCON may have a place in a few missions, but ship defenses are reliant on early detection. Ships do not live on CIWS alone. In the years I was in, every ship I was on was ALWAYS radiating while underway. Only exception was when men were working aloft. Additionally, at least one of the large subscriber you tuber like to act like he knows what he is talking about but has zero actual experience.

[@ryu1940]

Thanks man! Yeah, I think there is a misconception that CIWS is good enough and it truly is a last ditch weapon system when everything has failed to stop the missile. The best defense is to have awareness and try and reach out and touch the incoming missiles when you have time at range. Picking up missiles visually because you are at EMCON isn't good.

[@ryanlegrand141]

I have missed most of the previous comments. Are people perhaps meaning it’s useful to have a single ship or two act as a Radar picket, while the bulk of the surface force is under EMCON in order to mask the precise location, composition, and disposition of the surface group?

[@ryu1940]

oh no, I've had people say straight up there is no reason to be radiating at all and that you should always be in EMCON especially in that particular scenario someone said you'd definitely see the missile launch at EMCON and thus no additional SA is gained by using your radars. I just wanted to show for sure in the game, you will not see that launch.

[@Th3Orange]

Today i learned you can give the order to the entire fleet instead of doing it for each ship individually

[@ryu1940]

It is pretty useful but I will recommend you always check your individual units sometimes it can be bugged. For the formation orders - sensor orders - surface search radar, that one can sometimes bug out and the ships won't turn their surface radars on but the formation leader will.

[@Th3Orange]

@@ryu1940 Gotcha, haha i'll be sure to double check for sure! I'm new to naval warfare so these are very helpful when it comes to decyphering the armchair generals. I cant tell you how many times i got destroyed in EMCON and was like fuck it i'm switching everything on... yeah you can see me but i can also defend myself now

[@ryu1940]

hell yeah glad to hear that man!

[@artruisjoew5473]

Weirdly enough in that mission, with the initial volley, you only detect the missile at visual range with radar active anyway. Others have observed the same thing it’s super weird with that mission.

[@ryu1940]

I think it varies because the sea state is kinda high at 5 but I've certainly detected some of them before at 7-8nm with radar but my average is 3-5nm which is enough time to get 1 maybe 2 missile volleys off. If I was at strict emcon I'd only get it visual around 1-2nm. You won't get any esm information from this missile because the terminal guidance is IR. This is the SS-N-2C.

[@AndySabola11]

If you look at the air search radars they have a minimum height of 50m or something. I believe the Styx's fly slightly under that once they are guiding themselves.

[@iron_talon]

@@AndySabola11 You also need to account for emitter height - the SPS-48 being that high up on the Virginia class should easily be able to see to sea level somewhere between 15 and 20 NM by just a guess, and something the size and shape of an SS-N-2C isn't a small return either. Makes me wonder how Sea Power is modeling radar wave propagation and the curve of the earth

[@callum2277]

In the current version the AI is so reliant on scripting EMCON doesn't make sense. Most missions start the AI moving directly towards the players location or have some kind of asset placed near by that detects the players ships. Other missions have hard coded strikes in the ini files that happen regardless of if the player is detected.

[@Daimo83]

Point well made.

[@ryu1940]

Thank you!

[@Hornet411]

how come ESM isnt picking up the terminal radar guidance from the Silkworm? dont think the land based radar can see that far out to the straits

[@BFDK]

Good question! If one uses the debug menu (F10 ingame) one can actually see the different sensor systems and their values. Maybe I'll experiment a bit.

[@ryu1940]

This particular missile is the SS-N-2C, another reason to not be so reliant on ESM detections...it uses terminal IR guidance.

[@iron_talon]

@@ryu1940 Hopefully they'd be ready to spam Mk 245 from the SRBOC launchers in that case - though now I wonder if 'Chaff' deployments on ships are also doubling as flare deployments like they are for aircraft

[@xN1NJAshotsx]

On this mission if you instantly pause and go emcon the OSA dont shoot at you

[@ryu1940]

Yes they won't until the Mig-23s come at you, when they VID you the OSAs will shoot when you're at EMCON and you'll never see the launch so you never find out where they are. That was the point I was trying to make.

[@lrmunro]

In this scenario, if you’re not on EMCON, what should you do once you detect the launch? Missiles are out of range at launch so can’t send up defensive missiles then they disappear. I’ve tried pointing the bow at them to reduce radar profile, but so far I haven’t been able to get through this scenario without losing a ship.

[@ryu1940]

The first thing I do is fire a salvo of harpoons at that launch point. You might not get the Osa but you will definitely kill 1-2 boats. The Osa has already released the missiles anyways so they aren't really a threat. You can close with your DDs to that area and around 12nm or so you'll start picking up small radar contacts you can then engage with harpoons to finish the rest of them off. This scenario is very difficult to get by with because you really would see them 3-5nm out which is enough to maybe get 1 or 2 SM1 shots off. I believe these SS-N-2Cs have IR terminal homing so they don't even set off your ESM or are affected by ECM. Broadside unfortunately is the best but of course you present such a large target. At the very least you can fire your CIWS, guns, and missiles off at the missiles. If you can flank speed your DDs up for more missile coverage once you know the launch is happening you might be able to add more defensive cover but you should also drive your CGs the opposite way when the launch happens. This is because they are firing at the spot you should be at but those missiles can't get any midcourse guidance so you can hope you move out of the spot far away enough that you might have a little chance. Overall it is just difficult in general because you're already put in weapons range without any ability to engage the shooters earlier to eliminate the threat with your longer ranged harpoons because you dont have helicopters.

[@nortonis3565]

Hey i am new to the game. If you turned everything off , how can you still track this MIG coming inn ?

[@ryu1940]

Good question, it is because the aircraft is using its radar and I am picking it up with my ESM equipment. I talk about it more here in this video: kzbin.info/www/bejne/p2Kuc5SZZrCSZqssi=5h9S0z8p3sMFtZQ-

[@leongao5120]

Do people use emcon after they are detected???

[@ryu1940]

Some do!

[@SonB288]

Since firing radar-guided SAMs involves radiating your FCR, even under EMCON - how detectable is this by hostile ESM, and at what range? Obviously most platforms in-game have ESM, so you and the AI will get info from an aircraft under attack, but I was just wondering if FCR detectability is seperately modelled and directional. For instance, if I were under EMCON and needed to defend an incoming missile from the north with SM-2 (or even CIWS) - could that get me detected by hostiles to the south?

[@ryu1940]

@@SonB288 Yeah I think it is directional and even takes into account where the beam is pointed. So if we’re pointing upwards at a jet if the angle is really high it’s unlikely ships further away in that direction will detect it.

[@Rhino_Aus]

Does the heli radar pick up launches + sea skimmers? To me (a total non-expert) a chopper at a stand-off distance from the SAG + EMCOM until detection seems like the best balance. I guess for that to work, the heli would need to be far enough that a launch towards it has the ships outside the detection envelope of the missile sensors. Which is then countered by a spread of missiles? Lots to think about!

[@xenoaltrax485]

Nope, the helos in game only have surface search radars. You can also see in Stealth17's latest game video, he had a helo up which only saw surface contacts, then when he turned on his ship air search radars, a whole bunch of incoming AShMs were detected, some already as close as ~5nm away, helo radar didn't see the AShMs at all.

[@Rhino_Aus]

@@xenoaltrax485 Fair enough! Heli/AWACS is still going to be good for providing situational awareness without giving away the exact position of the fleet, so still very useful.

[@xenoaltrax485]

@@Rhino_Aus Not saying anything in the negative about the other uses of helos. I was simply answering the first question on "does the helo pick up launches or sea-skimmers" - in the game, the answer to that question is a 'no'.

[@umad42]

I only stay at EMCON until there is a chance I have been detected. As soon as there is any chance I have been detected, all bets are off and the cats out of the bag. My radar's on and I am alert. The added risk of attempting to preserve stealth in spite of ANY evidence, regardless of how minor, that you have been seen is too dangerous. It's like wearing a blindfold to a knife fight, you won't see the other guy about to cut you because you still think you're sneaking up on him.

[@anno-fw7xn]

Question is what the mig doing not seonsor linking? something only late gen 4 or gen5 jets realy can do?

[@ryu1940]

Yeah those jets would not have the capability. I believe it is just the game sharing unit information kind of like some fighter pilots spotting the ships then radioing the position to other units.

[@anno-fw7xn]

Thanks! It would be interesting if they ad some randomise to the reporting of the jets to make it more reasltic :) thanks for the answer​@@ryu1940

[@jayteaman]

Got a whole slew of Sea Power gamers who are thinking the AI in the game are writing TACELINTs on their position.

[@ryu1940]

lol

[@capthawkeye8010]

The major issue you have is that Sea Power is a tactics game, the activation of a scenario by nature means-contact is imminent. So why wouldn't you light up? Only operational context from something like a campaign would rationalize the use of EMCON.

[@sillyslapper92]

In real-life, how do warships communicate with each other while under strict EMCON? Do they use some uni-directional radios or limited power ultra high frequency radios (i.e. limited direction and/or limited range emission) to reduced likelihood of intercept?

[@ryu1940]

Can't really talk about that sort of stuff in relation to real life.

[@sillyslapper92]

@@ryu1940 Understandable lol. Thanks anyway :)

[@terpdx]

I love how you can empirically show how EMCON blinds you to incoming threats, have it backed up by multiple statements from USN personnel, but still get "ChadKZbinr69 says to stay at EMCON, so you're wrong."

[@carlosavena6376]

EMOCN is rather situation if you ask me. Depends on the scenario, what you have available and what you are against to. It's the same as passive or active sonar. Hide and seek is the name of the game.... .Anyways through out your demo you were on weapons hold so do not expect to have your ships fire upon being fire

[@pnzrldr]

So, illuminators for the SARH missiles, 5" guns and CIWS are permitted to light up under EMCON? Aren't these just as visible (or nearly as) to ESM as search radars?

[@ryu1940]

Usually fire control radar beams are super tight so they aren't as seen the same way a giant rotating air search or surface search emission would be. EMCON in this game is on or off irl it is different and in this game even at EMCON you're FCRs are still able to work so you could defend the ship.

[@IIKraftI]

>heres how EMCON can still win:

[@MikeToll-uh4kb]

We called that EMCON suicide

[@onenote6619]

Unless I am missing something, the Osa class needed to use it's radar to effectively launch Termit/Silkworm missiles, and the missiles themselves have an active radar seeker. Surely these would be detected and at least a bearing given long before a visual spot?

[@ryu1940]

You can definitely launch your silkworms without using radar from the launch platform. In that scenario there are Mig23s who can detect the ships visually and there is also an IL38 who uses the wet eye radar which has a range of approx 240nm or so and the ships are less than 75-80nm from that platform. You can play this scenario from the Syrian perspective if you'd like to try it out.

[@onenote6619]

@@ryu1940 That makes sense for the first part. But what about the active seekers on the missiles? They would be active long before visual range, unless the ships were at knife-fighting range, which they are not in this scenario. I have to believe that ships would carry warning sensors for something so ubiquitous as a Silkworm.

[@ryu1940]

@onenote6619 I believe the silkworms start their active guidance 6nm out or so it’s still pretty close range.

[@onenote6619]

@@ryu1940 Maybe that's something the developers will put in later. It has to be said that if you don't realise a Silkworm is inbound until 6nm distance, it's probably too late. But it would definitely make your point about EMCON and reality.

[@ryu1940]

I forgot to mention, the missiles in this particular scenario are SS-N-2Cs so they have the IR terminal guidance which will not really be picked up by ESM.

[@lilletrille8998]

I bought Sea power last week, but I have not tried it yet..I have been enjoying these videos though....if you have good radars - why not use them? I have never understood this - unless you are a small missile boat and need to fire your missiles and run like....why sail around in the dark?

[@maceosikes]

After you suddenly hear "Vampire vampire vampire" and watch everything you love get destroyed by waves of shipwrecks without warning you'll understand

[@fargengru6121]

I think people fail to understand it's a mix. If the bad guys don't know where you are, be in EMCON if you have eyes like a helicopter or an AEW aircraft spotting for you. But if they have spotted you at any point, fuck emcon. If they spotted you, and they had hostile intentions, safe bet is to presume missiles are in the air. Naval warfare is almost entirely a battle of sensors and detection. You can't just deny yourself an advantage when you know your enemies have already detected you first. That's how random deck seaman don't go home.

[@MrCampasaurus]

On this same mission even with radars being on full time i never pick up the anti ship missiles until visibility range except for when they're launched. Shouldn't these be spotted sooner?

[@inquisitivetelevisionsales2761]

I feel like the RCS and detection modeling for missiles in general is still getting worked on/patched up; there's been times where I can keep a constant track on a Styx/Silkworm from the moment it leaves the launch tube at 21nm away until CIWS interception, and there have also been times where I don't see them coming until within 0.7nm, even with multiple sets of large air/surface search radars active in the fleet. For some reason, the Battle of Latakia scenario seems to have a much better overall detection time for incoming SS-N-2s compared to Don't Mess With Texas, which is odd since the former is at night time and the Israeli Sa'ar boats have pretty simplistic/low power radar sets compared to US capital-ship-sized surface combatants.

[@MrCampasaurus]

@@inquisitivetelevisionsales2761 Glad i'm not crazy then. Thanks for the response. I knew something was up on this mission.

[@Killa_Kamz]

What I've been doing, don't know if its realistic or just works for me in the game lol, is in case of soviet vessels and I don't have AWACs, planes or Heli. I switch my radar on and let it turn once or twice and then turn it off and switch that through my ships in the fleet every now and then as to not give away my exact position and such. So far it works for me, as going full radar makes a Slava and Kirov light me up like no tomorrow, doing this I see a bit of difference but I'm not sure if this even does anything to be honest, feels right but I have very limited knowledge of how radar and sonar actually works or if the AI just flips out because I do it lol.

[@jubbernaut4049]

Subbed

[@ryu1940]

Thanks!

[@Sky_Burger88]

This game would be so much more enjoyable if the formation orders actually worked right. What I've found is that it's easier just to split all the ships out of the formation and control each one individually. Yeah it's a total click fast but it gives you better control over the shifts because like I said, if you give the whole formation orders, some of them just don't give a s*** and we'll do their own thing anyway.

[@yankeelongshoreman9113]

Are you making sure to select your air defense and sensor orders from the formations option? Formation orders need to be given from the formations menu, not the menu for the lead ship.

[@ryu1940]

Yeah I do that a lot with ASW scenarios I'll disband the formation so everyone is free to maneuver and evade on their own. It can be more work but like you alluded too it is less frustrating.

[@YagamiKo]

It's not about using EMCOM or not using EMCOM. I think both of you, you and the Former OHP FFG Sailor, got this right. You misunderstood his video, he explicitly said that there are scenarios where EMCOM makes sense and there are scenarios where it does not make sense. The two scenarios you have shown are already "lost" in terms of EMCOM (Hormuz and Texas). There is no need to go EMCOM, because your position has already been revealed or because the scenario editor sends jets in your direction anyway.. so it will be revealed in a couple of minutes. There are scenarios where EMCOM makes sense and there are scenarios where it doesn't make sense. There is no general advice for:"Do not use EMCOM!" or "Use EMCOM!". It's scenario specific.

[@failsafe123123]

I guess EMCON works quite well if there are other sources of intel around - like AWACS or whatever. In that case it could work better... of course until missiles are fired ;-P

[@ryu1940]

Oh yeah that definitely helps to have other platforms collect information on the world around you.

[@LordKosmos]

I follow a lot of youtubers who try their luck and tactics on this game and am glad to have also some pro in command here, no disrespect to any other armchair admiral, love others as well ^^ but if some mariner is giving out some valuable advice, maybe heed that and try to understand the logic behind. It is so dependent on who are you fighting against and what is your biggest possible thread. You would normally not just cruise blindly into a situation, there is a before time for the scenarios. You would at lest have some limited info about ships, subs, planes from various sources from your direct recon and back home so you would know about the dangers lying ahead. If you played Cold Waters, campaign, like that. Of course, the things you do not know are the ones that kill you and if one would set a soviet cruiser along the way, that somehow eluded satellite and other recon sources, you would really present them a nice hot target, but if your intel is solid, you should not blindfold yourself needlessly. Looking forward to more insights Cheers!

[@ryu1940]

Thank you for watching and I'm glad I could share some insights! Yeah I agree we should get more intel in the scenarios. I think the talented mission editors out there hopefully could fill that gap with really detailed mission briefings. Certainly it doesn't have to be 100% accurate but it would be nice to know some information on what is possible to play out in the scenario.

[@willreynolds11]

Quality video

[@nozzer2002]

ok so when should you use your EMCON then?

[@Zadlo14]

Full EMCON? Only when you have AEW&C air platforms (like E-3) available. If not, only when you're sure the enemy doesn't see you and is not within the range of your weapons. Available carried helis still require from you using air search radars. But you don't use all the radars. The ship with the longest available range anti-air missiles should be used as a radar picket. Rest of ships still can be silent. If you know where the enemy can be you can use smaller ships (like OHP) as a recon / radar picket force.

[@inquisitivetelevisionsales2761]

If you know that you're outranged and/or outgunned by superior enemy forces, which is typically communicated via pre-mission briefings. The BLUFOR Guam scenario does a pretty good job at showcasing this; if you deactivate EMCON at the start, you're instantly fired on with a full salvo of Shipwrecks by the enemy Kirov. Instead, you get a flight of EA-6Bs and B-52s with ISR gear that can act as your eyes and ears while keeping your surface fleet hidden well outside of enemy detection range. TL;DR it's highly situational and depends on what other assets you have at your disposal besides your main ships. Using your LAMPS helos or a dedicated radar picket is probably your best bet if you don't have anything better suited given to you in the mission.

[@CharliMorganMusic]

It depends. If there is a Kirov, then emcon until you're in range to shoot back. Everything else isn't as much of a threat.

[@YukarisGearReviews]

I don't think this scenario is a very good example, even with radar on you're detecting the incoming Styx missiles way too close to properly defend against them. Not sure why they appear to be so stealthy in this instance.

[@covalle7877]

Either the missiles were detected by the good old Mk1 Eyeball or it was until then that they became active

[@inquisitivetelevisionsales2761]

@@covalle7877 I think Yukari's point (which I seemed to experience as well) is that even with all radar sets active and scanning for threats, the SS-N-2s in this one particular scenario seem uniquely stealthy compared to other missile types (and even other Styxs from different scenarios for me). Typically, with radars on at mission start, I see the initial launch and climb phase, but immediately lose track on them until visual detection right before they hit. In the Hormuz and Israeli Sa'ar boat missions, both of which also heavily feature SS-N-2s, I tend to be able to maintain a steady track all the way through the missile's flight, from launch to terminal intercept and/or decoy. Funnily enough, I seem to detect other, more modern sea-skimming missiles from much further away than the comparatively large, slow, and imprecise Styxs in the Texas scenario.

[@ryu1940]

The main thing I think a lot of people miss is that they do have the SS-N-2Cs modeled in the game and they are in this scenario. They appear more stealthy because they are using IR terminal guidance. If you're at EMCON this is a great example why trying to detect things only with their EM signature can bite ya. I do believe the RCS for this missile needs tweaking. It is really small so the best radar ranges I've got with the Texas against these missiles was probably 7-8nm but the average was 3-5nm usually. So using radar you'll get at least 1 maybe two missile salvos off but strictly being at EMCON you'll be in bad shape because you won't detect it visually until 1-2nm.

[@youreinacoma3009]

Yeah unless you have air or ground assets doing the work for you always have a vessel on radar piquet. edit: add space for irl

[@robanson32]

@2:11 how are those missile tracking the Mig-23 without radiating? I thought SM's required illuminators?

[@maxkircher4671]

The target illuminators are a different, separate radar set to the search radar, and stay functioning even at Emcom. Same reason why CIWS still works.

[@eypandabear7483]

Fire control radar is separate from the search radar.

[@robanson32]

@@eypandabear7483 but wouldn’t that tick off any ESM detectors?

[@Seth90]

@@robanson32 FCR uses a very tight beam, directed directly at the intended target. If it's pointing in the air, there is basically no chance it will be picked up by enemy ESM. Only another aircraft flying directly behind the original target (from the ships perspective) could possibly see your FCR on its RWR in that situation.

[@comradeblin256]

people= we use emcon me who knows enemy AWACS will always see my fatass CAG= *turns on all sensors and launch heli with radar suite to increase detection beyond earth horizon* 🗿 *no missiles nor planes able to touch me fleet* 🗿 *then lose 4 frigates to lone submarine shooting torps* (forgot to send some idle helis to do ASW because contested airspace) 😱😭

[@iron_talon]

I feel like the ESM detection ranges for missiles are a bit wonky - you should be seeing something as basic as an SS-N-2C from waaaay further out than 1.2 nautical miles. Regardless you absolutely need your own emitters up to engage those things without just relying on chaff and prayers the second you think they've PID'd you. If the enemy knows who you are EMCON becomes utterly pointless I think a huge thing that gets overlooked is Sea Power doesn't actually model EMCON in it's full depth - It's all or nothing in game, where actual operational EMCON has multiple levels. You've got everything on, everything off options for the game, but it's missing the 'I'm keeping the easily identified emitters off' option(s) that should give you some modest situational awareness via radar while also potentially tricking the other side into writing you off as a Commercial ship.

[@eypandabear7483]

Your ships were on "Weapons Hold". Your point still stands, but they wouldn't have launched interceptors even if they had had more time.

[@ryu1940]

oh yeah very true! I think you need 3-5nm to get one shot off and that is it.

[@morrit33]

EMCON is only of use when you have other radar assets available. Otherwise it is pointless. If you can detect opposing units with recon units, then fine. Use EMCON. But otherwise you are basically playing Marco Polo until your carrier gets lit up by 5 Shipwreckers, and the last thing going through your sailor's mind is shrapnel.

[@mikeck4609]

Pretty sure the enemy knows you are there when you are sailing frigates and destroyers 10 miles from their coast. Going EMCON is like sailing by with your eyes closed thinking that “he can’t see me b/c I’m hiding”. You’re not hiding…your just blind

[@ryu1940]

oh yeah in this scenario I believe they have an IL38 flying at the coast which has the wet eye radar that'll see 200+nm and you're sitting probably 80nm off the coast.

[@wolfhunter98]

If your EMCON was at EMCON you wouldn't have gotten hit. *I'll see myself out.*

[@ryu1940]

lol

[@feuyeah9702]

Well maybe beaking emcon is the right call in the real world. However in the current state of the game it is the wrong decision at least from my experience in the hormuz mission. I have played this mission now severel times (to test it) and breaking emcon always was a death sentence, while staying on emcon (at least in the initial phase of the mission) turned this mission into a walk in the park. Don't get me wrong, i like your videos and guides and i wish the game would reflect your conclusions more, but for me it just doesn't. It really bothers me, how easy the enemy can spot me when my radar is up and how hard it is for me to find the enemy meanwhile. I does not feal right especially when you compare the quality difference of an US cruiser and some Iranian patrol ships.

[@ryu1940]

@@feuyeah9702 You can definitely do that mission with your radars on. I think with that one you will get shot at if you ask air targets to ID themselves but I always play it with radars on and the benefit is you can see where the enemy boats are if they do fire their harpoons at you in it.

[@twig4661]

unless you are trying to hide or pretend to be something you're not why would you ever want to turn it all off? leave it on... kinda like driving a car at night without headlights, just dumb

[@shaneedits704]

No matter how much real world experience you have. The keyboard warriors are always gonna believe that they are right.

[@ryu1940]

Yeah it comes with the online territory I guess.

[@shaneedits704]

@ unfortunately.

[@z0rgMeister]

You-tubers just like saying EMCON because they watched too much Hunt for the Red October and they think it's cool.

[@Stinker4583]

I think you are only half correct. I played this and went EMCON until the Migs got close and I knew they probably spottet me. So at that point I turned my radar on, and saw the missiles incoming way earlier. Going full Radar on, is just as bad as going full EMCON, non of both make sense at their own.