One Ping Only - How to Use Sonar in Sea Power Naval Combat in the Missile Age

[@Wolfpack345]

Great video!

[@dr.kangaroo3142]

Im literally here after watching one of your videos and trying to figure out the asw side of this game

[@Malakie]

I am one of those former Sonar Technician Surface people, United States Navy. Retired medically 2014 due to my 5th major service connected injury. Spent the first half of my 24 years as an STG, which means I worked on FFG, DD, DDG, CGN and CG systems primarily but also with Helo based MAD and sonobouy systems (helo and SQR series surface ship console). A couple things I noted in the video, you did a good job first off but I figured I would give a bit more explanation to those not at all familiar with these systems and how they work. Note my comments reference the cold war technology level for the USN and allies. Systems today are much more powerful and the technology now used goes far beyond just pulsing sound into the water and listening for a return. So much so, all of the information is highly classified and thus I will not be discussing any systems past what I listed above, in this comment. At 2:04 you showed the basic vs the reality of real sonar. You happened to mention the modeling does not go to the real time level because it would bury our computers due to processing power. You nailed it. And the thing that might surprised a lot of people is that the processing capabilities of those systems listed above and STILL even in use today on many ships, is 50 year old technology... i.e. analog w/solid state components. People might be shocked to find out that the SQQ and SQS series sonars up to the SQS-53B and the Perry class SQS-56 High freq units, were literally loaded from a cassette deck when they were taken completely offline for repair or maintenance. These were fully analog systems although they were solid state components down to actual component level boards full of caps, resistors, transistors and anything else you can think of found on a circuit board. Full STG's like myself, were sent to special long and multiple 'C' training schools, including BE/E level 1 and level 2, where we literally learned electronics and computer theory (and, nand, nor, or gates and more) and the full capability on how to repair systems by hand... i.e. using electronic tools and a soldering iron and tracing things on schematics down to the 1's and 0's. We are taught to read those schematics down to the last individual component and trace. The most modern sonars we have now, for example the SQS-53C, have even more power and capabilities but I am not able to talk any specifics about that. One of the stacks in sonar control and its processing units had the power of a 8 bit processors from their design days, the 50s, 60s and 70's. Our systems used multiples of these processing units however, basic parallel processing, each stack independent of the others (usually 2 stacks, one BQR unit and support units NOT counting the actual main system cabinets) for display and function of searching for and tracking all underwater and surface bound contacts. However those were not the main processors but they could talk to each other, exchange information or sync together. To give you an idea how much power literal and how much power itself our systems take, as one example, we literally had the entire bow and every single deck filled with processing cabinets, signal cabinets and so on. This is where the heavy work was done for both sonar and passive sonar system computer and signal processing. This literally all took 4 decks not counting the lowest point where access to the actual sonar dome hatch was. One of those compartments was nothing but one huge massive power supply that basically took ships power and ramped it up into millions of watts of energy. I cannot talk about the details because they are classified but let's just say that the amount of power we produced for the sonar itself and the amount of processing to handle everything was enormous. At 2:28 you mention there are two types of sonar. There are actually more modern detection systems now, which are still classed as 'sonar', but information on them is closely held thus not much information is public and those like me are not able to discuss details of course. For this simulation though, I understand they would not even be on the drawing board yet but just wanted to pass along a bit of information regarding that. Even though many warships still use the above listed systems, upgrades have greatly enhanced their capabilities but now ships are seeing much more newer and better systems starting to replace or be added to ships that were the things of science fiction even a few decades ago. 3:08 Noise. Actually we can mask own ship noise from interfering in our detection methods. The one thing with standard sonar we cannot mask, is the actual water rushing past the dome or hydrophones because that is based on a whole lot of things like salinity, sea state, weather state, temperature and more. But own ship noises, we can mask. And today even more modern systems can pretty much blank out any background noise through signal processing. You find this tech now even in civilian systems in use, especially for ships doing bottom pinging or mapping. Additionally, US Ships utilize something called 'Prairie Masker' which literally means masking own ship sound by imitating rain. I won't go into details on how it exactly works but in essence bubbles are created on the ships hull in a specific ways that literally can hide a surface ship from being detected when it is working correctly. Note the system cannot be used at high speeds of course but it works even better IN a rain storm for obvious reasons. Good explanation on sonar propagation waves etc. When you started talking about the shadow zone, I was wondering how far you would go because as you said, that is highly classified information, not just in detecting it or knowing where it is but in using it as well. One of the more important aspects of sonar and it is something that impacts BOTH active and passive sonar. The convergence zones. Convergence zones are the area where the pulse of sound, incoming OR outgoing, depending on the mode you are in and frequency, will converge for all transducers. I do not know the extent of what the game will use but note that CZ is NOT something that just works every time. It is actually much harder to isolate and follow ANY contact found in a CZ zone. So hopefully the game is not using CZ as a way to always detect something out there. These 'zones' are highly dependent on all aspects of the water like sea state, salinity, temperature and much more, PLUS depth of not just the water but also depth of the layer and finally the type sonar pulse you are using along with the frequencies and other things not able to be discussed. CZ can literally detect contacts hundreds of miles away under excellent conditions. Most common CZ detections are usually 10 to 60 miles away, again depending on a lot of factors. Note that CZ cannot track a contact precise enough to use for weapon solutions. But it can tell you someone is out there, the bearing and under certain conditions, enough information to tell the direction they are traveling if the contact is held long enough. But again, it is a less than common detection system, especially in the North Atlantic where this simulation seems to be taking place. The North Atlantic is NOT good for CZ at all. Too much turmoil because weather patterns are constantly active and sea states are rarely calm enough to work CZ. You might get a moment contact but you would have no way of knowing if it was an actual ship or sub or whether it was a bottom reverb or even a wreck in shallower water. It is very rare in the North Atlantic for us to get a CZ contact and hold it long enough to figure out what it might be or any kind of direction information. Last, I don't know if this is modeled in game but we could set our towed arrays to 'dangle'. That is we could have part of the array ABOVE the layer and the latter half below the layer. It would be interesting to find out if the game does model that!? Also note depending on conditions and settings, we could 'hear' helo's as well.

[@oseansoldier]

Thanks for the awesome comment. Really enjoyed reading it. First time I have seen the Prairie Masker mentioned outside of reading Red Storm Rising.

[@Enigma89]

Hot damn what a comment, thanks for taking the time to write all that.

[@ShahjahanMasood]

This is just incredible insight into these systems. Thank you for writing all that.

[@MattStevens9824]

Educational post! I hope a studio or indie developer gets you involved in a DLC or scenario development.

[@Valkyrie_Yukikaze]

Wow, this is a long and nice read. Thank you for your service first and I hope someone can forward this to the dev of Sea Power : D

[@Enigma89]

Subscribers are 90% less likely to be found by active sonar. Subscribe 🥰

[@thanosfickda]

let me tell you, doing comments like this won't increase your subs count as much as you think you must find other ways to make KZbin algorithm, or people to more likely to pick your video , to get higher views count

[@vincentvoncarnap]

@@thanosfickdanah it will, sometimes people just forget

[@thanosfickda]

@@vincentvoncarnap unlikely, look at how much likes this comment having right now only 19 likes , if this comment is effective at attracting people to sub to this guy it should be way more likes Still the viewcount is the main cause of high sub counts Even youtuber like VidIQ telling tutorial how to get more subs to not begging likes or subs using comments, but rather focus on video topic/quality , thumbnail, views instead

[@vincentvoncarnap]

@@thanosfickda is this content not high quality?

[@thanosfickda]

@@vincentvoncarnap i gonna say, subjective , but will it help him get alot of views? certain and uncertain But more "clickbaity" thumbnail can work , the thumbnail that make people more likely to click on , like it more like to make people, stop scrolling , and wondering, and click on from i heard, the thumbnail is very important, even if the editing is good, if the thumbnail is hella bad, it just unlikely to perform well The retention editing, the type of editing that feel fast pace, like mrbeast videos , showing stuff somewhat like mrbeast , working quite well but still retention editing from i heard is not enough, you need to do something more different than others , different emotions, different vibe , and of course, i think relatability is also important , but also should related to the video topic? it is complicated, i think you have a bunch of time to search what make a video famous , reach like 100k views, 1M views

[@GutkowskiMarek]

Like I said. Everybody that dismisses the educational element to computer gaming, needs to have their head examined! Great Vid!

[@Enigma89]

Corrections and clarifications: 1) Sonar Buoys are passive not active. 2) I said radar instead of sonars sometimes. 3) The dev tools always shows a 360 view but my audio on it is more correct than the visual. Submarine based sonars are very directional in terms of how narrow they can see vs sonar domes. 4) Some VDS systems have both a passive and active system !

[@Enigma89]

Also special thanks to JetfireBlack for helping me make the graphics for this video.

[@Schmucketellyjoe]

Sono buoys can be active IRL

[@OliverMiles98]

@@Schmucketellyjoe Yep, SSQ-62 for instance is an active buoy and SSQ-53 is a passive buoy (both should be available to the P-3C and S-3A during the 1980s)

[@rawnukles]

The animation of the flooding tanks of the Delta was cool. Can you please do a video on the Oscar using a Tu-95 to find targets and then show us the Oscar launch a volley of Granat missiles and the missiles swarm behaviour. I really wanna see this :) I hope we don't get an apocalypse before we get to play this game.

[@MichelVaillancourt]

@@Schmucketellyjoe : hard on the batteries tho. Mostly useful for scaring the sub you're pretty sure you already know is there by deploying one on-top of them.

[@cladecq]

Remember one very important thing : submarines make MUCH less noise than surface vessels. They therefore have every interest in remaining in passive sonar mode as long as they are not detected. This also prevents you from finding yourself with a helicopter overhead a few minutes after emitting your active ping(s). Submarines most often have the ability to precisely locate enemy surface vessels before they are even detected themselves. Active sonar is only used on a submarine as a last resort, for example (non-exhaustive) to correctly reorient a torpedo during guidance if the target has maneuvered too much and distorted the passive sonar's firing solution. Therefore, submarines always in discrete mode, therefore passive, for as long as possible. For surface vessels, it depends entirely on the mission and the rules. But most of the time they are relatively discreet too and they use the helicopters to do active work. On the other hand, in hunting mode on identified targets, surface ships always switch to active sonar mode.

[@Buconoir]

Former Sonar Tech Surface here. I see others went into some depth, and I'm not gonna even read all of that one guy's ultra technical comment, but I gotta say this is a great video you made here. I can't wait to play this game since it looks like it hits all the high points without too much of anything unrealistic to get in the way of what looks like a fun game. People don't get how boring combat can be, and the distances involved, but it looks like this game has a good balance.

[@Enigma89]

A nice comment thank you

[@TheHumanHighlighter]

I think the whole understanding of "where real life ends and where abstraction begins" is a massive pill that alot of the sim community NEEDS to swallow. I know this is a Sea Power video, but it applies to literally every game out there that attempts to create a simulator atmosphere. At the end of the day, these are GAMES and not 1:1 replicators, they aim to FEEL real, not BE real. Really been enjoying these guides and love learning these concepts before the game comes out, maybe with your help I won't botch every scenario I play when it's here. Keep being a voice of reason towards the community and all the best to you in the meantime. o7

[@wmouse]

I always say that realism in a simulator is about making realistic decisions and getting realistic consequences. If your super detailed physics simulation has weird edge cases that players exploit with highly unrealistic tactics, than it's objectively worse than a simpler "wrong" model that promotes real world tactics.

[@TheHumanHighlighter]

@@wmouse Right on, to me, it's all about: 1. Making it look and sound right (so visual/sensory feedback is valid and reliable) 2. Making it "realistic" so it behaves as close to reality as possible BUT NOT introducing anomalies born of the "simulation of realism". This means that I'd rather have the game feel like a video game over it being more realistic at the cost of massive flaws or catastrophic bugs that happen often. 3. Uncertainty and chaos in reality can be translated to a "simulation" game by adding small margins of error or a tiny amount of RNG, usually the least invasive (and best) way of this is adding it to passive behavior, and not active behavior of systems in the game (Ex. randomizing AI pathing/routing, and NOT doing so for things like missile locks which you can keep constant).

[@wiseguy3696]

Read RP-33. Boom, now you know sonar. I have been a sonar tech for 9 years. Best job in the world.

[@s.porter8646]

I love the perfect rain from Prarie air .. when last PD Trip was clear

[@HugoDiasR]

Very cool, finally something similar to Dangerous Waters in Modern Naval Combat

[@josephmagana6235]

Some more aspects of IRL sonar that would be interesting for them to model: Different sonars are sensitive to different frequencies and have different bearing resolutions. That goes for sonobouys also. Some are better for "searching" and others for "tracking". Having multiple sonars might pick up different frequencies to help with detection or classification. Different sonobouys will descend to different depths. I think there are also variable depth settings but not 100% sure on that. There are also active sonobouys. In "bottom limited" environments, the effectiveness of sonar can depend tremendously on the composition of the sea floor (sand, rock, mud). Towed arrays are not able to differentiate detection left or right, so a towed array contact has a "bearing ambiguity" that has to be resolved by collating with other sensors or by maneuvering and observing which contact moves with the array (the false one). Torpedos also have set run depths, so you can set them to run above or below the layer as well. HF (high frequency) active sonar is very short range but high resolution, useful for navigating through a minefield, or ice. Passive sonar can be used to "count the beats" of a contact's propellor which can tell you type and speed. Everyone knows Whales are noisy, but it's my understanding that the most common "biologic" sound in the ocean that would interfere with sonar operations are actually loud shrimp.

[@randomguypi-uf2jc]

I think they do somewhat model propellor noise details with how you can ID ships from sonar via their propellor noise

[@helloworld31205]

I hope there will be a full-scale guideline set or something like an encyclopedia to explain all of this step by step. Preferably with some described tactics as well

[@MichelVaillancourt]

Excellent tutorial. Bravo.

[@crazygmanssimstuff]

Nice vid Enigma. I play a bunch of Cold Waters, and am looking forward to controlling a bunch of Soviet subs in this game. Some important aspects I feel you missed on the sub side, is the fact that using active sonar for any ship is you basically screaming out to the world that you exist, and so if your a sub you generally only ever use active sonar if you have already been detected by another sub and have been fired upon, and you need to locate the enemy sub to return fire. Also Soviet subs have igla missiles specifically to deal with aircraft in game but it's very risky to use them with enemy ships about.

[@Enigma89]

Yes good point on active sonar being like screaming, I should have mentioned that. For Iglas, they do not come on the subs in this game, so helicopters are very safe from submarines for now.

[@crazygmanssimstuff]

@Enigma89 ahh my bad. Guess I'm used to too much Dot mod Cold waters. Lol

[@notloader]

@@Enigma89 Having done a lot of real world helicopter ASW, I'd argue the idea of SubSAMs were/are way over sold. Counter-detction was always the much bigger concern for helos, so no great loss in-game. That said, the detail in all of the various aspects of sonar in this game is pretty amazing.

[@crazygmanssimstuff]

​@@Enigma89I'm still annoyed that Victor 3 class attack sub has no test 71 torpedos, but the Kilo does...the fact that everything, even the flavor text in the descriptions is ported over from the vanilla version of Cold waters, is a little lazy in my opinion, but it does save on development.

[@Stealth17Gaming]

Awesome video! Learned some new things!

[@stevepirie8130]

Everything you do as a submarine can be a noise event thus giving yourself away. Increase speed, change of course or depth, reloading weapons, deploy or retract towed array, opening torpedo doors or flooding the tubes, firing weapons, etc. Doing any of this in the baffles of your enemy is best time to do them. This is all heard passively. Blasting away with active sonar gives away your bearing but not necessarily your depth depending on range. Soviets had excellent active sonar as they knew their passive was so poor as was their sound proofing of their own subs. They also didn’t maintain their subs as highly as NATO so once they were 12-18 months old they became noticeably louder. Thus they became very proficient at use of active to compensate.

[@sohrabroozbahani4700]

Command had conversion zones visualised and in a variable way... it was very helpful on detecting subs by pushing toward them from CZ to CZ... and get on top of them before they cold get to torpedo range with your ship... it will be harder to ise that tactic if there's no visual indication on CZs...

[@Tamburello_1994]

I see many similarities.

[@sohrabroozbahani4700]

@@Tamburello_1994 it's the same system, but Sea power still has room for improvement on that UI, given it's on early access version yet...

[@-Zevin-]

Really really looking forward to this game. I'm more into flight sims but Sea Power looks brilliant.

[@RedKiteRender]

Great showcase Engima! Whilst i mostly understood this thanks to Cold Waters / Dangerous Waters / Silent hunter III / prior, It was really nice to have a solid refresh and to visualise the topic. I wish i had these resources learning this first time round! Can't wait to get my hands on Sea Power.

[@Enigma89]

Thank you!

[@daveslow84]

Just like DCS, I can see how this sim will be used for excellent "home made" documentaries! Awesome! This was really interesting.

[@ferdeboergd256]

Really really well explained. As for the shadow zone, one way to assume you are in one as a submarine, is if you lose the contact or the contact gets weaker, you can assume the same happens on the other side. As you say, not 100% that, but... sub hunting/evading has a big guessing component to it. Also you have to consider that the shadow zone is dynamic and relative to the position and depth of you both.

[@KimLind]

Great guide, much do i know. But like always its good to update your brain. Well done. Did wonder when u gonna put out new vids (today is a good day)

[@chief117s15]

Incredible video. Just... wow.

[@Schmucketellyjoe]

Other things probably not modeled are seismic/volcanic activity and biologics (literally fish, shrimp, wildlife can be very noisey).

[@thomasc8482]

wouldn't necessarily be so sure, these are the people who made Cold Waters and there are plenty of whales in that game

[@danblauwal4524]

Imagine a Tsunami destroys the Nimitz O_o

[@CATASTEROID934]

I imagine you could probably abstract background noise from background seismic rumblings, the grunts of fish and continuous frying bacon sound of snapping shrimp as additional environmental noise, but larger biologics like schools of tuna, pods of cetaceans and individual whales and such could be modelling as biologic units. I don't imagine anything smaller than that would be worth simulating in much detail. I don't know how much data exists for exactly how much biologic and seismic noise can be expected, or how much of it is classified owing to the hush-hush nature of submarine warfare so I'm not expecting them to have some kind of map overlay of the world's background noise. That said it would be prudent for scenario makers to adjust for biologic noise and potentially add biologics to scenarios where submarines might be anticipated; several scenarios in Command: Modern Operations that involve ASW give you a point malus for dropping depth charges on biologics as an amusing punishment for overaggressive persecution of unidentified targets while hunting the submarines so it could be funny, though whether the display that shows what type it might be would give it away immediately is up in the air.

[@von_dusenhain2523]

Good video, thanks for uploading :) I have no back ground working with Sonar or anything Naval but: 6:00 i don't know if its this Fomula. But BD is usually 5-30m below the Thermal-layer. One approximation formula, that is often mentioned, is Layer-Depth(m)*1.5 - 45m = Best Depth, . It would make sense from usual wave behavior, since different wave lengths bend diffidently, for example in the Huygens-Fresnel principle. In our case, at a layer change, shorter waves lengths don't penetrate as much but bend less and longer wave lengths penetrate deeper but bend more. There for you should be somewhat close to the layer, so that longer waves bend around you and but far enough from the layer that the shorter waves can't get to you.

[@PanosSimandirakis]

Thank you, This is so interesting!

[@timothysmith7364]

Thanks for the video!

[@karma_cardinal]

great video! thank you for the explanation. looking forward for more guides

[@ramonrealbernal]

Thank you very much for your nice lesson about Sonar & Sea Power!. Best wishes.

[@theadvocatesails]

Good explanation. Another great reference is the video Jive Turkey/Sub Brief did. He is a vet sub sonar guy and gamer.

[@Hansiwansi]

Thx. Can't wait to use this information in the game soon!

[@weswheel4834]

Thanks for the video. Of course, it is only worth trying to find out the equation for it if the developers of Sea Power did likewise ;) Lots of really good information, thanks.

[@Watchyourselvez]

I'm so effing hyped for this game 😂

[@justicier10-7]

Excellent breakdown of the important bits needed for ASW/Submarine ops! I hope some of the complexity from from submarine warfare in "Cold Waters" has carried over, like the ability to muffle a torpedo launch transient by using a tube on the side of the sub that is facing away from the enemy (hull masking)... and the ability to "dogleg" torpedos on a wire to eliminate the possibility of the enemy accurately returning fire along the bearing of your torpedo. Given the very different scope of Sea Power, I presume these little details are probably not modeled... wouldn't want subs to be too overpowered I suppose 😉

[@joeryan82]

Very helpful starter on sonars. Got a sub.

[@Enigma89]

Tyfys

[@hez0r]

Much learnings just occurred 😎👍

[@Artorien]

Thank you for this.

[@hernerweisenberg7052]

First time I hear you mention your expertise in the Age of Sail. Glad playing that Naval Action payed off xD

[@Enigma89]

Man I miss that game so much

[@hernerweisenberg7052]

@@Enigma89 Yeah. Need new age of sail game badly ;( Doesnt have to be an MMO but its nice if theres something at stake when you fight and you dont wanna loose your ship ;D

[@craig.a.glesner]

Hella informative, thanks!

[@johannesschroder1704]

An anecdote regarding processor power required to calculate sonar related things. When I played Sub Command/ Dangerous Waters, whenever a torpedo went active, I could hear my cpu cooling fan spinning up.

[@Enigma89]

lol

[@gregpope4652]

Wow, so interesting!

[@SpaceNavy90]

Very helpful video, can't wait to sink my teeth into this game looks really fun. If it gets a sequel I would love some kind of multiplayer support.

[@NickstaSims]

It's kind of already a sequel to another game made by the same lead developer, Cold Waters. But yes I think it would be a fun multiplayer RTS naval game if they add multiplayer.

[@LuigiHanzo-n4w]

THANK U - UR A GREAT MAN!!

[@havocsquad1]

Nice overview video. Definitely may have to do a follow up video or replace this one when more of the Sea Power details get sorted out. Really need the option on the ship equipped torpedoes to set/disable the minimum detonation depth or "not ships" depth option on sea power. I think this is a big development oversight. I'm waiting for the day when someone does a comprehensive guide on Seapower about effective defensive tactics for ship formations regarding incoming missiles. Other than the game specific or unit specifc subtilties that may limit how much surface to air missiles can be in the air at once, it seems too much like Sea Power players tend to trust the AI a bit too much to do their air defense. Back in the days of the modded Janes Fleet Command, 40 anti-ship missiles in a huge swarm all at once was nothing new. It taught the correct lesson that the commander of the ship should prioritize incoming threats, not the AI.

[@davidhun7669]

Ofc this game has depth with a submarine :D

[@martin6247]

Thank you, interesting video👍

[@X1in]

very helpful thanks a lot!

[@jameslanz2117]

great video sir.

[@pnzrldr]

Great vid - would like to ask for similar vid, and more in your wheelhouse, on Seapower model for missile / air defense, radars and systems. Seen several vids from folks - you, Wolfpack, etc... where player turns OFF air search functions, then launches missiles. Unclear on how the ESM functions model, and obviouslyi, SARH missiles should be requiring fully emitting illuminator/target tracking radars on the launch platform, or associated formation AEGIS platform. Could you let us know how this is modeled in the sim, what abstractions to expect, and what your feelings are with your pretty in depth flight sim background?

[@billclarke5916]

Thanks 👍

[@kittyvlekkie]

Great video, also if you have ears and can hear,

[@vandannski]

This game will be great.

[@hazard910]

I love underwater vessels!

[@supermonkeywtf09]

Could you do something similar for radar and EW? Would be great to know what is modelled (e.g. terrain, earth curvature, missle notching, how chaff is modelled) and how to think about it.

[@ChazAldrin]

Smashed the buttons, Early Nov. we hope 🙂 is there a manual of ships and weapons we can brows while we wait for the release?

[@Cplblue]

I just watched Smarter Every Day's submarine series 3 days ago to pump myself up for this game, haha.

[@wiseguy3696]

That video is so hard for me to watch because it's my job and I know how it actually works, so it's painful to watch the Chief struggle to get through what I know are very easy answers. He's trying so hard to not get too excited.

[@ToreDL87]

@@wiseguy3696 That video is famous among aficionados, because when Justin shows he actually understands what they're talking about they literally go mute Every ex-Navy guy commenting was on it from the first second

[@lionelbowhunter468]

Dangerous Waters with graphics up to date^^: ps DW is way more complicated :)

[@mariushusejacobsen3221]

If you want a newer DW, check out "Modern Naval Warfare" by slitherine/maslas bros. They're expecting a closed beta by the end of this year and public release after.

[@notfastenough3350]

Excellent Video.... I wonder do you know how sea power models RADAR 🙃?

[@Enigma89]

Depending how this video is received, I was thinking of doing a radar one next.

[@williamcain7773]

Do it! ​@@Enigma89

[@CaptinRusko]

Great video have a question on sea power and sonar - do any of the ships in sea power use the Prairie-Masker system to help reduce the chances of detection? Just a curiosity os i have seen a lot of OHP and Ticonderoga videos of the game but no mention of it. Wondering how much they have modeled Again great video and very helpful information thank you

[@wiseguy3696]

They don't use them because of how that system works beyond a surface level is classified.

[@CaptinRusko]

@wiseguy3696 I'd assume the results of how well it works are classified but the principal is pretty well understood one part is changing the speed of sound through the medium, which causes the sound to be reflected back to the hull and not radiated outward reducing the acoustic signature of machinery and the other part provides gasses that act to prevent the total collapse of cavitation bubbles and reduce that acoustic signature also. For the game it wouldn't have to do much other than reduce the amount of radiated noise from both but I can see if they want to model its function mathematically that may be an issue. Although just using set values for convergence zones distances isn't modelling it fully either and just as much a work round so I dunno if they just haven't thought about it

[@wiseguy3696]

@@CaptinRusko Probably for the sake of processing and the programmer sanity, they either came up with an algorithm that predetermines the propagation paths or maybe they just have some preset paths. I think in their game, it would be modeled as just reducing the decibel level they use in their algorithm.

[@smeghead666]

Good to actually link the video. In fact don't even bother trying to link it in video, it never works. Just stick it in the description

[@sychmil]

so..does active ping sonar always make forward direction? not surround?

[@CompetitiveRacist54]

Is Anechoic coating modeled?

[@Enigma89]

It is. I left this out video so thanks for asking.

[@kraktor7368]

Could you maybe do a Sea Power video with cruise missile Submarines? Have not seen a video like this

[@jameslanz2117]

Well I know that not all sonars can use the convergence zone equally and I HOPE that is modeled in the game.

[@hsngm33]

red october!

[@amizaur3marcinostrowski186]

Nice video about sonar! Were you maybe an S.C.S. Dangerous Waters (or SubCommand) player by chance ? Or are you too young ? :-) Can't believe it was 20 years ago :-O I miss DW sonar modeling and sonar interfaces - in this game it seems to happen automatically and "under the hood". But the game scale is different here, too - its more like CMO with very nice and entertaining graphics :-). Regards !

[@amizaur3marcinostrowski186]

P.S. I didn't like Cold Waters, it was just a improved Red Storm Rising (which I player too, but abandoned after discovering more realistic SubCommand). I wonder if I'll like Sea Power. Definitely will buy and try !

[@havocsquad1]

​@@amizaur3marcinostrowski186 Be aware that many who come from Sub Command, Dangerous Waters, and Cold Waters that STRONGLY dislike micromanagement tend to quickly dislike the game and revert to titles close to what they came from. I dealt with that alot in the peak period of 2000 to 2006 when that was the boom period for modern naval warfare sims. I would see several from the multiplayer groups for modern sub sims pick up Janes/SCS Fleet Command (very similiar to Sea Power) and within a couple of months stop playing it.

[@josephmagana6235]

@@havocsquad1 It's already looking like too much micro-management for aerial combat for me. I'm hoping by release the friendly aircraft AI is improved so we can task them like a commander would and let them do their thing rather than micro their course/speed and give them fire commands like a soviet GCI.

[@julhelm1821]

@@josephmagana6235 It's definitely on our list to improve the autonomy of the aircraft.

[@Enigma89]

No i did not play those games unfortunately. I played naval action, SH3 and Uboat for naval games in the past.

[@isaac.w3638]

Bro act like we already own the game and teach us how to play it 😅 (Joke’s aside thanks for providing insight! Really anticipated for the release!)

[@grizzlychair]

Do MPRA aircraft get to participate in ASW in this game?

[@Enigma89]

They are present in the game but I am not sure if they can do anything to detect subs, the P-3 can carry torpedoes

[@LOKSTED]

Bro posted this guide like the game is already released. Made me checked the Steam page lol

[@turmfalcke]

well the same things apply for cold waters if you intrestet same dev

[@forrestallison1879]

I'm pretty surprised you didn't mention the detectability of active sonar. Maybe it's obvious, But I would like to know more about how other ships will hear me and how much it will reveal me when I use active sonar.

[@notfastenough3350]

Assuming your active sonar’s receiver and the other ships passive sonar have the same sensitivity. The passive sonar will be able to hear your active sonar ping at twice the distance your active sonar will be able to detect the other ship.

[@paulwood5803]

@@notfastenough3350 Frequency is the other factor, the lower the frequency the greater the propagation, broadly speaking. Also your answer above is fine for a simplistic overview, but in reality it is a great deal more complicated than that.

[@forrestallison1879]

@@paulwood5803 Im most interested in what is modeled in the game

[@mariushusejacobsen3221]

​@@notfastenough3350 That would be the absolute theoretical minimum, if signal loss was proportional to distance. Signal loss tends to quadratic in ducts and cubic in deep waters, cutting active detection by a lot more than just half of active interception. Also, the cross section - how much sound you reflect - matters a lot. If the target is nose on, it can get a lot closer before being detected, while still detecting the ping just fine. The shadow zone will keep your sound from reaching them, but it goes both ways - you'll also lose their active pings until they're really close, at which point their active may quickly find you.

[@gdwnet]

This is great! thank you. very much looking forward to losing ships and subs in this game when it releases!

[@humansloth4096]

Where is the link to the in depth analysis on sonar? There is nothing in the top right of the screen.

[@Enigma89]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/d6LUkoypbLGdoq8& Here you go, the video was incredible.

[@M1A1cavalryman]

I was hoping to hear if passive sonar could be used to localize contacts in the game. I have not seen any videos where the sensing platform would make a significant course change after detecting a contact, listen to it for a bit, then make a course change >60 degrees across the contact's bearing to refine the contact. Active sonar is used early and often, making me wonder if the passive sonar mechanics aren't working right yet.

[@julhelm1821]

Actually we have a very sophisticated passive TMA algorithm implemented on the plotting table, so TMA maneuvers absolutely aid in refining your solution if you play a single vessel. Keep in mind that that the tactical display shows fused contact data, not raw sensor data, so with more than one passive sensor holding the same contact, it will be triangulated quickly.

[@wiseguy3696]

TMA should be slow and methodical. Record the bearings by hand each minute for no more than 10 minutes. Flip the contact, repeat. Now do some trig and boom, contact location.

[@josephmagana6235]

@@julhelm1821 Does a TA only contact produce a bearing ambiguity? Also, do different sea floor conditions effect sonar (bottom bounce)?

[@JL-rj9fl]

@@julhelm1821 I am very excited to play your game! I would also love to know if different sea floor conditions effect sonar in the game.

[@paulwood5803]

@@josephmagana6235 Short answer, yes. But as soon as you have carried out a sprint and then re-established contact, that ambiguity is quickly resolved. Everything affects sonar performance to some degree or other, but if we are talking blue water ASW then sea floor isn't going to be part of the equation. In shallower waters then the sea floor will act, broadly speaking, in very similar way to the sea surface in producing convergence zones, but then you are less likely to have an effective layer so may well get direct path contact at enhanced ranges. Certainly in the 70's and 80's the balance was almost equal between sub and surface ship, because the Sovs couldn't soundproof their subs to save their lives and their mechanical and electrical systems were noisy as hell. It would not be unusual at that time to have contact well in excess of 120 miles. SOSUS was also a huge bonus for the allies who had access to it's output.

[@loneirregular1280]

Can your passive sonar lock onto or detect an active sonar?

[@notfastenough3350]

Passive sonar can detect the direction the active sonar ping(s) came from.

[@paulwood5803]

@@notfastenough3350 Actually almost certainly not if we are talking towed array as the passive receiver. If we are talking hull mounted sonar array then within certain parameters yes it can.

[@josephmagana6235]

​@@notfastenough3350 It's actually a separate system from the proper passive array called an "active intercept" sonar. I think that little pimple on the front of the 688i is the active intercept.

[@Dogface1984]

Can I have a ping Vasily?

[@kraktor7368]

Wow! Great video thx a lot for the explanation... I really didnt know how radar works

[@hook86]

"One ping only" is what you were looking for in the title...

[@Enigma89]

Oh thank you, did not realize, just updated it.

[@hook86]

​​@@Enigma89 lol all good brother. We knew the reference you were looking at.

[@vaonthegrind8613]

Make more guide videos plz

[@Kevin32001]

Based

[@spookyowlsounds3666]

not fast enough approaching, i'm dying from hype overdose

[@mortenholm9878]

do radar next please

[@john681611]

Rivet Counter.... hehhe love that name for Tedious Pedants

[@MeliokFR]

The only thing that will miss in this simulation is multiplayer. Otherwise it would be near perfect.

[@jared9191]

Mr Vasily, I need one ping please

[@tedarcher9120]

One. Ping. Only

[@danblauwal4524]

Nur ein Ping!

[@dracobruhma]

Im just gonna run active for all missions

[@HobelDcs]

this for PvP

[@Teknopuls3]

Bruh, this game is SOOO fake! That helicopter pilot at the end of the vid landing on the ship in a storm nailed it on the first try! We've all seen the vid of the REAL one...how can I give this game ANY cred after seeing that? Terrible...

[@peteypyotr8158]

Oh look, a guide on how to play a game that we can't play for a whole month... Sure glad you get to enjoy it though, for free.