Mindscape 188 | Arik Kershenbaum on What Aliens Will be Like

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Blog post with audio player, show notes, and transcript: www.preposterousuniverse.com/...
If extraterrestrial life is out there - not just microbial slime, but big, complex, macroscopic organisms - what will they be like? Movies have trained us to think that they won’t be that different at all; they’ll even drink and play music at the same cafes that humans frequent. A bit of imagination, however, makes us wonder whether they won’t be completely alien - we have zero data about what extraterrestrial biology could be like, so it makes sense to keep an open mind. Arik Kershenbaum argues for a judicious middle ground. He points to constraints from physics and chemistry, as well as the tendency of evolution to converge toward successful designs, as reasons to think that biologically complex aliens won’t be utterly different from us after all.
Arik Kershenbaum received his Ph.D. in Evolutionary Biology and Ecology from the University of Haifa. He is currently College Lecturer and Director of Studies at Girton College, University of Cambridge. He is the author of The Zoologist’s Guide to the Galaxy: What Animals on Earth Reveal About Aliens - and Ourselves.
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#podcast #ideas #science #philosophy #culture

[@Emanresu56]

Few things better than starting a morning with a new Mindscape episode and coffee.

[@Tubluer]

Dear Sean, Does Arik own a house duck? I hear quacking now and then.

[@7heHorror]

I'm a mammal using electric fields to communicate! ;) Cool guest and nice questions!

[@CraigMCox]

To think there is no multicellular life in our galaxy is like looking out at the ocean from the beach and saying “well I don’t see any fish waving at me, so the ocean is likely empty” It’s actually quite surprising to me to hear that take.

[@origins7298]

Earth got very lucky to be far away from supernovas. And even then supernovas close enough rendered 99% of life on Earth extinct several times. At least this is a leading theory. Anyway we know 99.99% of planets would be hit with much more radiation from supernovas. We know it took billions of years for complex multicellular life to evolve on Earth. Such a 2 billion year window is very rare in our galaxy... Therefore just supernovas alone would make the development of complex life almost impossible in the galaxy. Or very very rare Further the Earth got lucky with having the Moon. Or rather such a large close stable Moon. This is also very rare and it could be something like one in a million or one in a billion event... Who knows even one in a trillion Also the sun is a very stable star. Another very fortuitous event that could also be very rare. Actually we know the rarity of it... I forget the exact number but it's definitely much less likely than your average star Also the position of Jupiter and the gas giants in relation to the terrestrial planets is very fortuitous Just these four criteria alone could be well over one in a trillion rarity.... Anyway then the odds of multicellular life becoming technologically aware is again incredibly low so when you start to do the calculations if you have a few variables that are very rare... And they build on each other, then you can get incredibly staggering miniscule probability for complex and technologically aware life...

[@LEDewey_MD]

Great discussion! If anyone is interested, the book, "The Vital Question" (about how life originated) by Dr. Nick Lane (leads the Origins of Life Program at University College London) eloquently explains the topic, with a focus on how eukaryotes evolved from prokaryotes, how alkaline hydrothermal vents are a candidate for where life originated on Earth, and explains a lot of the pivotal research that led to where the field is today. It is a good "base" tome for understanding the field, even for lay persons. He even talks about life from a physicist's point of view, quoting Schrodinger saying how life "extracts negative entropy". Nick Lane proposes, and gives his arguments for how bacterial or simple life in the cosmos should be common ("life only needs rock, water, and carbon dioxide"), but complex life may be rare.

[@ElSachinoo]

Amazing! I think I'll give this a relisten, lots to unpack :)

[@OBGynKenobi]

Erwin Schrödinger introduced the idea of an "aperiodic crystal" that contained genetic information in its configuration of covalent chemical bonds. This is what he called life in his book What is Life.

[@bryan3dguitar]

Loved the comment that we don't see parrots flying around talking to each other. In English, I presume. Don't parrots communicate somehow with squawks?

[@joestacey6185]

What a great episode. So interesting. Thank you.

[@marcoaurelioa.4394]

Great! The next step could be bringing in your namesake to talk about Evo-Devo and get a more in-depth understanding of how organisms are built from DNA sequences. How life goes from genotype to phenotype.

[@DestroManiak]

Let's goooooo! I'm pogged out of my mind!

[@BigZebraCom]

I don't care what the aliens look like, but I am terrified that the aliens will want to talk about 'The Amway Experience' or want to Karoke Celine Dion Songs.

[@bryan3dguitar]

I'm terrified that the aliens might insist that we take them to our Leader, Trump! And that they want to provide melodies to all the Rap tunes. You know, so they could be harmonized, and stuff....

[@BigZebraCom]

@@bryan3dguitar Your vision of the future is terrifying.

[@WeLoveMusicStudio]

This is gold

[@peterz53]

Very interesting. Wonder what Arik's assessment of homo sapiens vs other species would be if the comparison was based on how we were 100,000 to 200,000 years ago.

[@adampitts9156]

Good one Sean.

[@twonumber22]

I just want to hear their music.

[@rong2912]

They probably don't have a sensory organ that picks up stimuli from vibration. If they lack the ability to feel emotions as well, then music itself would be meaningless.

[@leonenriquez5031]

Hey, Sean, try to have as guest Frederik Stjernfelt. He has a very well founded idea about what kind of intelligence is that which makes humans different.

[@tommygrandefors9691]

Good episode. Think we should have an open discussion for evental life outside our dear planet. The universe is bigger than most of us can grasp. You could invite Michael Godier. Beside from his special interest in lithium, he is a very good guy to listen to. 😀

[@primus4cameron]

34:20 onward. He's talking about daleks !

[@mykobe981]

Please interview Nicole Perlroth (author of "This is How They Tell Me the World Ends") on hacking and cyber-security issues, if possible.

[@TheMrCougarful]

The Fermi Paradox isn't a paradox. We are surely alone. Think about that as you drive and fly your way through the 6th mass extinction.

[@rong2912]

Smoke em' if you got em'

[@charc4819]

Have always assumed alien life would 'obviously' not be nucleic acid-based/cellular. (And not necessarily C-based). But the cosmos is consistent chemically, physically throughout. Galaxies, planets,H, He, electrons etc. Could it also be so *biologically* too?

[@FreeSnoww]

This is interesting. As a researcher/physicist are you at all familiar with the UFO community and different research such as Salvatore Pais and Steven Greer and others who corroborate Navy research being integral with development of UFOs and how some follow the Ancient Alien Astronaut theory being evidence of past contact? It gets thrown out commonly but this looks like the place to bring it up. They may be referred to as Annunaki. Or do you already reject this evidence?

[@raginald7mars408]

As a German Biologist and Pythagorean - we have no idea - how recent in cosmic evolution WE are. When a civilization may be 1 000 years “older” = more advanced - they will be unrecognizable to us. As we look out more for Life outside - any other advanced civilization does. There may be fully robotic systems we have no imagination of their capabilities. They may be here for Millions of years already - observing Evolution of real organic Life. For a Robot that must be the biggest thrill... and they may be care takers of Earth “Guardian Angels” well armed.... May be now installing human ways to finally get rid of us - as we are the most ignorant destroyers of BIOS TOPOS. This is a thrilling concept - that Robots with super human advanced “consciousness” - take better care of Life and Earth then we ever do. The expellation from Garden Eden in this sense may be a real story - and now we are finally expelled from the Bios Sphere - as we are the most Life destroying Species ever. Final NOAH Event... may be only Robots can appreciate Life the most...

[@tonymccann1978]

4:29 to jump right in

[@PATRICKJLM]

About your question on 4:55. It is simple to answer, as we have a great example. Evolution on Earth gave dinosaurs... and they would have been still the rulers of Earth if it wasn't for a cosmic coincidence. We are here because of a coincidence.

[@treborheminway3814]

They look like Sean. Would explain alot.

[@bryan3dguitar]

What advanced intelligence looks and sounds like? Good GAWD! The aliens are among us then! Well, at least one of them. Perhaps :o)

[@daverei1211]

Technology is a very very recent thing on earth, and could very easily have been snuffed out. The ancient Greeks and Romans had no industrial revolution which has freed up the brains from farming to work on even more complex technology. So after 4.5 billion years, it’s only the last hundred years and a population density for enough variation to get radio. So technology based intelligence is very very rare,and very fragile, dependant on a very large and freed up population.

[@ralphclark]

Aril’s argument against the dark forest is just not convincing. Any species that progressed far enough to achieve interstellar travel is just as likely to be familiar with war as we are. And they will face the same calculation. Humans may look cute *now*, but given their history, allowing them to achieve interstellar travel would be foolhardy. Better to confine them, or even snuff them out.

[@Grumhead]

There is a 0.0000000000000000000000001% chance the whole planet was full of herbivores and they never need to hunt for anything or be scared of anything, they are peaceful rabbitlike creatures. They dont know war and will be eaten by the first encounter with an other civilization. 👍🏻

[@sarthakmunda3914]

we don't know what we don't know. And more than that, we don't know that we don't know. There are more things in heaven and earth, horatio...

[@mickqQ]

If there is life on other planets Then we are aliens.

[@rong2912]

If you think of the galaxy, or even our local galaxy supercluster as a broader community, then we aren't "aliens". We're just neighbors.

[@mickqQ]

@@rong2912 We could just pop over and borrow a cup of sugar 😀

[@rong2912]

@@mickqQ Or a cup of element 150

[@mickqQ]

@@rong2912 Woah … element 150, your gonna need a lid for that 🤓, an empty jam jar would be better than a cup

[@rong2912]

@@mickqQ I'm trying to cut down on calories. I used to use 165 in my baking.

[@HarryNicNicholas]

i bow to your expertise, but a couple of things strike me. intelligence "like us" has only been around or 100 years, even 50 years ago we had no internet, no global phone link. intelligence "like us" will only last about 100 years before it A) gets modified - engineering humans to fit the environment will be easier than terraforming planets B) build robots that take human brains will be quicker than terraforming, and even combining with AI will be simpler if we're to travel to stars without FTL spacesips. life "like ours" probably doesn't exist, like you hint, either the universe is crawling with slime, or the universe is populated by beings that have long time said goodbye to bodies - if you have unlimited resources and unlimited technology - what kind of creature would you want to be? not human i'm sure, we're too fragile.

[@whirledpeas3477]

Would have been great if my teachers were not alcoholic drug abusers. I was able to make a good life anyway 😌

[@ladybirdlee3058]

They'd probably be plants

[@hapaart]

Several dozen civilizations currently exist in the Milky Way. Life has already been found via first lander on Mars. James Webb will verify a civilization. Wager anyone?

[@ecspermusic7470]

two few subs

[@HouseJawn]

He looks like Jerry Seinfeld 😑

[@Rob81k]

This weird arrogance saying "we will find e.t. life soon" ???!!

[@philswede]

Let's go Brandon!

[@thealexanderbond]

Lol, no one knows what aliens will be like, or even if they exist. Speculating is worse than pointless.

[@life42theuniverse]

It’s possible life elsewhere may use different basepairs other than GTAC. en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Base_pair#Unnatural_base_pair_(UBP)