Leaving Progressive Christianity (and Atheism)

[@joshk6066]

When he said that looking back he realized God was with him the whole time even when he turned his back on Him, I almost cried. That is exactly how I feel. 20 years of turning my back on God, only to give my life to Jesus in my late 30s and to reflect back on my life and realize that God has been with me the entire time. God has been so good to me even though I am so undeserving of his goodness.

[@TheChristianAtheist]

I know what you mean, brother. I have deserved exactly NONE of God's goodness, yet He opened the storehouses and poured down on me a blessing that I cannot contain. Malachi 3:10-12. Perhaps you might enjoy our Malachi series on the Christian Atheist.

[@williambranch4283]

Prayer of Footsteps on the Beach.

[@TheLookingGlassAU]

A good example of nihilism is Frodo at the foot of Mount Doom. Tolkien's words are very brilliant. "I can't recall the taste of food, nor the sound of water, nor the touch of grass. I'm naked in the dark. There's nothing--no veil between me and the wheel of fire. I can see him with my waking eyes." So much of meaning comes from enjoyment or displeasure, to be a nihilist you must thrust yourself into the darkness and be taken by whatever dwells there.

[@maxboucher86]

My first church was somewhat liberal, we had unbiblical women pastoras and I heard proper christianity explained by others around me and read my bible and I noticed i was in error in many ways.

[@rduse4125]

The journey of faith in God in the Bible for me was a little bit like old-fashioned scales. Once I got past childhood, what I could see was that all of the weight was on the atheistic side of the scale. Then slowly one weight by one weight Evidence was moved from the atheistic side to the theistic side. Over a decade or so more than half of the weight had shifted… At some point, you realize that what you have been taught as absolute truth is probably only theory. And as the atheist theory has been dismantled in my life,I tend to take the theistic things more seriously, not only looking backwards… But looking forward as well. So now, if the Bible says something in contradiction to modern “knowledge”, I am much more hesitant to simply jump on the more recent learning.

[@TheChristianAtheist]

@rduse4125 This is the story of my turn from atheism. Incredibly well-done! Perhaps you would like to take my next interview for us!

[@rduse4125]

@ - Thank you sir for the reply…excellent interview! God bless and Merry Christmas!

[@helenal.7881]

One time I was walking in my neighborhood and just doubting everything about The Lord etc…and I kid you not….a Cadillac drove right past me with a big sign in the back of his car that read “Jesus is Alive”! “ He has Risen”! I was like, I think that’s a sign. Lol.

[@rduse4125]

I’ve begun to draw distinction between faith, or spirituality and religion. - additionally, I see three basic types of religion: first, is the progressive religion as discuss in your podcast… Second, is the orthodox religion based in ceremony… And third, is the fundamentalist religion, which I see is more intense than orthodox religion. After my journey away from God (growing up Catholic), I would’ve considered myself agnostic. I never became hostile with God, and I always held out hope that perhaps God existed; but increasingly began to lose that help. It was actually giving the job as the medical officer for my department when I began to study more diligently about the human body. My intense study open the door for faith that has never closed again. I see there are two options when it comes to how we got here, one is blind painless, indifference (as Richard Dawkins would say), and the other has to be some sort of intelligent design. Now, I’m back! My faith and God is firm, and my belief in the Bible is sound. But I no longer fall into one of the three religious categories… I’m almost completely “non-religious” in the fact that I just can’t seem to go to a church anymore. I feel like I have a true relationship with God, and Jesus Christ, but it’s nothing that anyone preaches… And I miss that.

[@williambranch4283]

Each makes an individual journey, not a collective journey. But we aren't alone in the world. There are others on the same path you are following ;-)

[@rduse4125]

@ amen brother

[@thimychan202]

Please debate with Randal Rauser. He has critiqued some of your videos.

[@majorphenom1]

Thanks for sharing 🙏🏿 His grace and mercy be upon you both and your loved ones 🕊️🥛🍯

[@midimusicforever]

Nice comeback!

[@helenal.7881]

Wow! Loved this! Will definitely get DR Wise’s book! Thank you for another amazing video DR McDowell

[@shailamoon8396]

I like that clock behind Dr Wise.

[@FaithLikeAMustardSeed]

The 6 6 6 seems like something you'd notice and think better of putting right behind you, but I guess he's okay with it.

[@osageprairie4211]

Sean my husband just turned on the science channel where the "experts" were saying the Greek said Jesus was killed by a Roman who speared him in the side. Also early Christians didn't talk about the cross until the 4th century therefore it's possible Christ wasn't crucified. I quickly changed the channel. Does the Biola Apologetic course address this kind of nonsense? Thank you for your videos.

[@Bamifun]

He needs to check out Wes Huff.

[@superwormhalz2607]

well, he was speared in the side, and water came flowing out, but he died on the cross

[@markmcflounder15]

Good grief, the Science Channel going full Ancient Aliens like the History Channel

[@roblangsdorf8758]

The in gospels Jesus said that Jerusalem would fall but none of the gospels talk about that fall actually taking place. At the end of the book of Acts Paul is still alive. But he was killed by about 60 ad. The book of acts starts with the end of the book of Luke. The book of Luke quotes a passage in Mark that contains even earlier material. Clearly reports of Christ's death on the cross was out there within a few years of his death.

[@JohnWalker-e6y]

Science says….trust me, bro!

[@PiRobot314]

Dr. Wise talked about progressive Christianity as compromising on what the Bible says. I am an agnostic and I still have some barriers to Christianity especially regarding Biblical authority or inerrancy. I think something like a progressive Christianity might be better at answering these objections. Is it worse to be a progressive Christian or a non-Christian who is holding out for a stronger Christianity?

[@teresahunt5521]

You will never have all of your questions answered. I am not boasting, but I have a genius IQ. We want answers! Lol My suggestion is to just jump in and start swimming. Watching this channel is a good start. You are not here by accident, you know. You have been called. That's just the way this thing called faith works. I don't know your background, but God told me to respond to your comment. Merry Christmas. Jesus still saves.

[@TheChristianAtheist]

What I would suggest, PiRobot, is to trust in the Lord Jesus and don't worry about those issues at this point. Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ - Acts 16:31. If you want to discover the truth you need the Holy Spirit's guidance. Then, take the Bible seriously, WHATEVER else you have been taught to think, and see where an honest asking, seeking and knocking will take you. There IS no stronger Christianity than that which God has given us. Trust Him to show it to you, for "without faith it is impossible to please God."

[@Greenie-43x]

I think it depends on what you're looking for in Christianity. If you want the peace and comfort that can guide you through your many years left on Earth, progressive Christianity will likely provide a sense of well-being. If you want to accept Jesus' gift of eternal salvation, I would study The New Testament and the resurrection of Jesus Christ. You might enjoy J Warner Wallace's approach. He introduced me to the idea that I don't need an inerrant Bible I need a Bible with a true account of God's Message, and that seems to be the case. Whether things have been added or things have been missing, if Jesus is God and He has risen, I listen!

[@horridhenry9920]

“When we are willing to compromise the clear word of the scriptures “. But the scriptures are not clear, that is why we have thousands of denominations and apologists like You, Sean.

[@jeffg4570]

That reminds me of the quote by Mark Twain: "It ain't those parts of the Bible that I can't understand that bother me, it is the parts that I do understand." I agree there are confusing scriptures in the Bible, but at the end of the day the question is, “What do we do with the parts that are very clear?”

[@williambranch4283]

Sola Scriptura apologetics fail for me. Religion is a relationship not a proposition.

[@chrisinolympiawa9295]

I enjoyed this discussion.

[@dawsonballard5839]

Is it progressive Christianity to be inclusive of my Queer neighbors and family? Is that compromising of my faith to love and include my neighbor and family in love?

[@catharsis77]

Sure, love them. But don't pretend that their sin is pleasing or acceptable to God. That isn't loving God or them.

[@what-about-bob]

Read God's definition of love and you will see that it does not insist on its own way and does not rejoice at wrongdoing but rejoices with the truth (1 Corinthians 13:4-7). My position is that the church is inclusive in the sense that all people sin, need to hear the truth of the gospel and should have the opportunity to repent. However, the narrow gate, by definition, is not inclusive. Those who find it can no longer live according to their own ways. The function of the church is to urge people to repent and live holy lives for Christ - not to affirm or encourage us in our sinful ways.

[@anthonybarber3872]

It depends on how love is defined...

[@Andreamom001]

What do you mean by “be inclusive”?

[@dawsonballard5839]

@@what-about-bob while I understand your point, the issue I have here is by your definition, anything outside of a man and woman in a relationship is sinful. Why? Because the Bible is clear, as there are a handful of verses condemning anything outside of a man and woman in marriage. What does it mean to live holy in Christ? Can a gay person be in a committed monogamous relationship with their partner and still be able to glorify God by loving their neighbor and God? If your answer is no, then what exactly does it mean to glorify God? Does it mean to be inclusive of LGBTQ people loving, and not seeing their sexuality as sinful? Does it mean advocating for a more socialist form of government so that everyone has access to better health care, resources, and support from the government? Does it mean advocating for women's rights to reproductive healthcare so they can get the care that they need? If you think that these things are not glorifying God, or the process through which we glorify God, then how the hell do we glorify God? Again, what exactly are you talking about about? Just throwing blanket verse theology, like "love God" and "glorify God", and "repent of your sins" are meaningless unless you define them more fully and practically. God moves in the world through people, not in abstract theology we say for the sake of upholding our own theology.

[@SmashMaster]

Curse tablets? What is that?

[@horridhenry9920]

After studying he concluded “there is no God”. I have studied, and would, for want of a better word, describe myself as an atheist, but I have not concluded that there is no God. I don’t know if there is a God, but I am not convinced by anything I have experienced, or studied that such an entity exists in any objectively obvious sense. Did Dr wise study every religion to find God? I haven’t that’s one of the reasons I cannot be certain he does not exist.

[@teresahunt5521]

And this is why we are told to surrender. Speaking as a highly intellectual and analytically thinking person, you eventully throw your hands in the air and give up. Eventually those hands in the air go from surrender to praise. You realise you have been taken captive by the gospel and you thank God you have been rescued from the constant overthinking of it all. We will never outsmart God. He is there for persons of every level of intelligence. From the child to the genius.....we will always find Him there at the end of our searching just waiting for us to surrender. Jesus saves. Merry Christmas!

[@TheChristianAtheist]

An excellent summary, Teresa, for what Jenny and I have been learning over the last 5 years, and in greater specificity this LAST year. As I mentioned Antony Flew in the video, who "followed the argument" to theism near the end of his life (although regrettably never accepted Christ so far as we know), I will quote another notable contemporary philosopher, Thomas Nagel, who wrote in his book THE LAST WORD (1997): "I am talking about something much deeper-namely, the fear of religion itself. I speak from experience, being strongly subject to this fear myself: I want atheism to be true and am made uneasy by the fact that SOME OF THE MOST INTELLIGENT AND WELL-INFORMED PEOPLE I KNOW ARE RELIGIOUS BELIEVERS. It isn’t just that I don’t believe in God and, naturally, hope that I'm right in my belief. It’s that I hope there is no God! I don’t want there to be a God; I don’t want the universe to be like that." (Emphasis mine) I have studied some of the greatest human minds in history, and NONE OF THEM compare to the Bible. "For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways,” declares the Lord. “As the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts." Isaiah 55:8-9. Studying God's word this last year has been one of the greatest intellectual journeys of my lifetime! You might appreciate our series on Malachi. It was central to ALL that God has done with me this year.

[@teresahunt5521]

@TheChristianAtheist Yes... this year has been transformative for me as well. I've studied everything from ancient artifacts and temples to ufos and the mothership. At the bottom of every rabbit hole, I realize that the Holy Spirit called me, Jesus walked with me, and eventually, we end up at the Creator of the universe's house ...every... single... time. Not to sound new age, but I do tend to get "downloads" on a routine basis. It's as if I round a corner, and God says, "What took you so long?" We have a good laugh and then go on our next adventure.

[@rduse4125]

The more I feel like this world is a shadow of the kingdom of heaven… Akin to a dream, a hologram, the matrix, the holideck, whatever other analogy you can think of; consciousness is foundational, and material is secondary. Eternity is not simply a long time ago to a long time from now… It is not a long time at all, but timelessness. Contextualized properly, what is an old earth or a young earth philosophy? The same could be said for flat earth versus globe earth . In a video game, what is the shape of the Earth? Some of these arguments may simply vanish once we have the correct perspective.

[@timothypeterson4781]

You can't call Lewis a trump card when I can point out multiple things that he'd disagree with you on.

[@TheChristianAtheist]

I actually laughed at the "trump card" reference as well, Timothy. I do indeed disagree with Lewis on some things. He was a man like any other. If you've ever read about his personal life, he was a mess, just like all the rest of us. He knew he needed a Savior, though, and he tried his best to help others find Him. I really think he made the point more clearly than I could, which is why I used that quote. Right or wrong, he wanted what he wrote to honor God, for which he deserves my thanks and respect. In the end, though, listen neither to Lewis, McDowell, or Wise, but to God's word. It is a lamp unto our feet and a light unto our path.

[@michaelbaker6212]

Sean mcdowell have you ever listened to Muhammad hijab?

[@cheryldianecraddock5656]

You either believe the Bible is the word of God or you dont. We believe through faith, I dont need to see proof of every detail, God has given us all we need to know. We study the Bible to show ourselves approved, rightly dividing the word. What I dont understand I accept through faith. I let God lead me and I follow the written word of God. If a teaching is contrary to the Word of God, then I can not follow it. Let the scriptures be your guide, the Truth.

[@calebhintz5374]

Why should anyone believe that the Bible is the Word of God?

[@seanpierce9386]

Replace the word “Bible” with “Qur’an” and notice the problem. Also, if you don’t find evidence useful for yourself, it’s at least helpful for evangelism.

[@Greenie-43x]

A quick google search gives quite the extensive answer to why people believe the Bible is the word of God; "The Bible's accuracy The Bible is a historical document that accurately describes real people, places, and events. The Bible's claims The Bible claims to be the authoritative word of God, and over 3,000 times in the Bible it says, “Thus says the Lord”. The Bible's structure The Bible's unity, structure, and subject matter suggest a supernatural authorship. Jesus' view of the Bible Jesus believed the Old Testament was the word of God and predicted that the New Testament would be the same. The Bible's prophecies The Bible contains many prophecies, including over 700 specific prophecies about Jesus' coming. The Bible's transmission The Bible has remained pure throughout the centuries, despite many attempts to destroy it. The Bible's impact The Bible has had a positive influence on societies around the world, and has the power to transform people and nations. The Bible's self-attesting nature The words of Scripture claim to be from God. The Holy Spirit's power The Holy Spirit applies the truth of Scripture, which gives people confidence in the Word. "

[@markmcflounder15]

There's a serious basic problem with replacing the Bible with the Qur'an. This is pretty bad. The Quran affirms the Bible & denies the crucifixion & death of Jesus. Moreover, there are historical, archeological & textual criticism problems with the Quran: "there are holes in the narrative" (Dr. Yasir Qadhi). This is a pretty typical blogging atheist belief & means you haven't even attempted to look or think.

[@markmcflounder15]

Moreover, those atheists that decry evidence have none to offer for their own faith. In transition, based on modern day 21st century atheism every religion, belief, claim, every claim of werewolves, elves & FSMs can be true. Where did the universe come from??? "Nothing" (Stephen Hawking, Lawrence Krauss, Daniel Dennett, etc..) "Only believe where there's evidence" And you believe in the Multiverse??? So, there's an infinite or 10^500 universes Multiverse of which there's no evidence & they burst into existence from nothing.......what magnificent creativity: every movie is a documentary & is real somewhere in the MV

[@horridhenry9920]

This is the Hill I’m going to die on. Wise is not a bible scholar, he does not speak Aramaic, Hebrew or Greek, the languages the scriptures were originally written in. Therefore he is relying on translations and the bible being inerrant. He has no idea what Jesus said, he believes the hearsay. That is no basis to come to a life altering conclusions . For that reason I cannot go beyond 38.29, it’s pointless.

[@mohitoautomaciek801]

🍻🤝🍻👍🍻🤩🍻🥳🍻👍🍻🤝🍻

[@traffic-law]

I pity people who are born into a religious family and are compelled to believe a load of garbage. They have an excellent excuse for their ignorance. Not so an adult capable of rational thought who chooses to let superstition and folklore replace reality.

[@TheChristianAtheist]

I fully agree with you, Traffic-law. I am astonished how many atheists continue to blindly and uncritically follow the myths into which they have been indoctrinated, even after they have been liberated from the dominance of hyper-rational philosophical parental and cultural superstitions. I would simply ask them as adults to make an attempt at skepticism.

[@richartsowa9852]

Bible says Jesus claimed a deep connection to the creator of the universe, but Never that he Was the actual creator of the universe,,, let's get clear on this without extra embellishments that come into Many direct conflicts with many bible verses where Jesus absolutely states that the Father is greater than him and that his Father has deeper knowledge and wisdom..... do a search... there are many times that Jssus confirms thus.... even in John's acount of the word being God... in the original text it becomes truly coherent as meaning 'a god' as in first Son of God...

[@roblangsdorf8758]

I wonder how many people have been led aways from faith in the biblical God by people like William Lane Craig and Hugh Ross, who reject that God created everything about 6,000 years ago?

[@TheChristianAtheist]

This is our worry, too, Rob! If all we are is a carbon copy of the world's ideas and thoughts, having compromised away the real substance of Christianity and the Holy God, why choose to believe it at all? The Gospel, we are told, is a stumbling block. If there is nothing "difficult" about it, then we are probably not preaching God's word. 1 Corinthians 1:20-25: "Where is the one who is wise? Where is the scribe? Where is the debater of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? For since, in the wisdom of God, the world did not know God through wisdom, it pleased God through the folly of what we preach to save those who believe. For Jews demand signs and Greeks seek wisdom, but we preach Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and folly to Gentiles, but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. For the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men." (ESV)

[@bobloblaw4102]

Anthony Flew had dementia. If you want to hang your hat on his belief in a god late in life you’re not going to persuade many of his questionable “conversion.”

[@catharsis77]

Sorry to hear that about Flew. Denying God exists just seems plain ridiculous to me. I have had times where I didn't like that there was a God who was unhappy with me and would judge me, but I never doubted that He existed.

[@bobloblaw4102]

@ Which of the thousands of gods throughout human history do you believe in and what is the evidence for its’ existence?

[@catharsis77]

@@bobloblaw4102 The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. The Holy Bible.

[@strawman6085]

@bobloblaw You should answer that same question.

[@seanpierce9386]

@@catharsis77 Ridiculous, or unimaginable? I said the same thing. It turns out, Christianity tends to misrepresent atheism a lot, and unless you actually hear what they have to say, it’s easy to jump to conclusions.