Seattle's Two Unconnected Streetcars

[@Thommygun-qv7um]

As a european, it always surprises me how diverse the public transport infrastructure is in the USA. Mainstream media here in europe only shows how car centered this country is. Thanks for sharing this experience with us, especially with your critical view on things.

[@LimitedWard]

Oh trust me the US is VERY car centric. Seattle, like most cities in the US, is woefully underserved by public transit, and the city is only recently trying to correct that mistake (with HEAVY pushback by its own citizens). The irony is that Seattle, in particular, had the opportunity to build a metro system decades prior, but they voted against it and the federal money ended up funding the Atlanta metro system instead. So in the end it actually cost the city MORE money to build these light rail systems and they have much lower capacity compared to traditional metros.

[@sammymarrco2]

it all depends where you are, the vast majority is car centric. EU mainstream media talks ab American car dependency, that hilarious.

[@drdewott9154]

Well theres also other factors as well. Like the vast majority of these "Streetcars" in North American cities are built with a single goal in mind. Real estate development, rather than providing a particularly good or useful transit services. The streetcars are only there to raise property values and get private companies to invest in the area. In Europe, you generally see cities try to do that AND provide a good transit service at the same time. But at the same time they usually don't build super expensive tunnels or elevated guideways for large potions of their tram systems. The reason being that if you spend that much money on such things, why not build a metro line instead? So European light rail systems tend to be somewhere in the middle, being mostly at grade and or in the street, but with almost entirely dedicated lanes, heavy signal priority, and 30-60 meter long vehicles.

[@asherjackson4504]

I don’t believe that you’re European. Someone living in a country here in Europe wouldn’t call themselves “European”. Not to mention your American spelling. Strange to impersonate

[@edwardmiessner6502]

The United States is ridiculously car dependent. In Europe the LRVs and streetcars (trams) would be much more heavily patronized.

[@amfm889]

Thanks again, Thom. Both streetcar lines have an interesting history (maybe it'll get added to the Wiki entry someday). In a nutshell, the SLU line was driven by Paul Allen's (Microsoft co-founder) development company, Vulcan, that bought up old industrial/commercial property in the neighborhood that is now dominated by Amazon. The First Hill line was a substitute solution for reaching that neighborhood when it was discovered that a Link station could not be built on the (now) 1 Line because of unstable soil conditions. Both are compromised by being stuck in vehicle traffic lanes. As for the connector proposal, the greatest value would be for visitors and tourists to easily travel between Pike Place Market and Pioneer Square. King County Metro buses, by the way, have robust (and faster) connections traveling more-or-less the same routes. "Walking faster than the streetcars" is no joke.

[@tylerkochman1007]

If you can collect good sources to use as references, you are always free to add that history to the article yourself. I’d really encourage you to consider doing that as a free-time side-project. It’s something you are knowledgeable about, and it’d be a great way for you to share that knowledge. 🙂

[@Thom-TRA]

I wish the way finding between light rail and streetcar was better. At Capitol Hill there wasn’t much that told you where to go for the streetcar.

[@SleepTrain456]

I didn't know about this connection between the SLU Streetcar and a Microsoft co-founder! Also, I've taken a look at the Wikipedia article "South Lake Union Streetcar", and I found a sentence confirming Paul Allen's involvement in the project. Also, now that you mention the tourist benefit of the Connector, I'm hoping even more that the two lines are unified soon! Thanks for the information!

[@shigemorif1066]

It’s funny but in Phoenix there is a light rail and just recently (maybe a year ago?) a street car opened up in Tempe that is connected to light rail. I didn’t think about how common that is these days.

[@bobsykes]

The cities you're visiting are so beautiful. It seems like you have created an incredibly fun job for you both with this series. I love wathcing these, beacuse this is exactly how I like to get around whenever I visit anyplace new. Always looking forward to the next one! ✌

[@Thom-TRA]

This was one of the best trips we’ve ever made!

[@joserivera-yc5rr]

Love their monorail and streetcar lines

[@rikkichunn8856]

Fascinating! You cover new lines so well, lines I know nothing about. Good job!

[@Thom-TRA]

Always glad to share some knowledge

[@Cupertinorail]

Been on both streetcars, they are really nice! It's very good for natives like me

[@trainglen22]

They should build the connector. It would improve the city.

[@Thom-TRA]

Agreed

[@kiosk5595]

I’m all for the connector but I see why it’s not a high priority. The first hill streetcar terminates at 2 Link stations and the South Lake Union streetcar terminates at one, meaning you can get where you need to go by rail. 2 transfers are annoying though

[@auberginebear]

@@kiosk5595it’s not about priorities, it’s about cost. They were building it, but after the City Council didn’t audit or get a second opinion and were overcharged by one contractor, they found a problem in Pioneer Square because of parts of Old Seattle (literal wood beams that were falling apart when touched) needing to be dug out would bankrupt the project. That’s why it was abandoned and currently still no plans to pick it up again.

[@bryanCJC2105]

Great video! I noticed that a bus line also seemed to operate along the tram line and passed it by, so I did a little digging. While Seattle's light rail sees good ridership, the trams have terrible ridership. The 2 water taxis (Downtown to W Seattle w 17 crossings/ day and Downtown to Vashon Island w 6 crossings/day) each get the same or more riders than either tram line. The tram lines are averaging less than 500 riders/day. The tram line corridor you rode on is also serviced by a Rapid bus line and a high frequency bus line both of which are getting 10-15x the ridership of the tram line. It makes me wonder why Seattle has invested in trams if they aren't serving their purpose which is carrying more riders than a bus with faster service. It seems like Seattle's tram lines are doing the opposite; serving fewer riders with slower service. It's an example of American transit systems not really understanding how to use trams.

[@Thom-TRA]

It’s the same as Washington DC. Terrible ridership because there is a better bus service on the same street.

[@seanhenry2921]

Yeah, the trams are kind of heartbreaking.

[@realquadmoo]

This is a great video!!! I’m excited for the next one. Will you be making videos covering Sounder or T Line at all?

[@Thom-TRA]

Not this time around!

[@k.ebartlett1830]

the first hill line is incredibly convenient for us, living near first hill and traveling often into cap hill

[@Hahlen]

That Asian-Town livery is very pretty. I like the idea of every vehicle having its own unique livery, but nothing should ever be painted entirely mustard yellow lol

[@Thom-TRA]

I’d consider it more Mountain Dew yellow lol

[@sammymarrco2]

berlin u-bahn vibes

[@officialmcdeath]

That chemical soda yellow makes me want to return to Manchester \m/

[@gregorylparks7304]

Great Video!

[@Thom-TRA]

Thanks!

[@user-hb1zp6si4p]

You're Welcome! Keep up the good work!

[@cameronbrossard8189]

Hi Tom I’ve been to Seattle, after watching your videos on the street car and monorail. They were so cool thanks for the great videos Tom

[@Thom-TRA]

Glad you like them!

[@edwardmiessner6502]

Boston also has light rail and streetcars but they're all part of the same line. From Medford Tufts and Union Square to Symphony, Kenmore and Riverside the system is light rail but the branches beyond Symphony and Kenmore are admittedly LRVs acting as streetcars for end half-mile of one line in mixed traffic, the rest in the medians of avenues. Then there's the Mattapan High Speed Line where PCC streetcars are used as LRV's! 😮 L.A. is the same way because the old Gold Line section of the E Line runs in the median. San Francisco and San Diego are even moreso because both cities have actual historic streetcars not just LRVs running as streetcars. If you count Philadelphia's western suburbs as part of the city, then that town too has light rail and streetcars.

[@scottdean2199]

Early on, the South Lake Union Streetcar was called the South Lake Union Trolley. They put out a bunch of promotional materials for it, then quickly realized their mistake!

[@pauld2810]

Here's a bit of history behind the First Hill Streetcar: When Sound Transit was planning to extend Link Light Rail north to the U District, they presented a couple of possible alignments and put it to a public vote. The winning alignment would have tunneled under First Hill and Capitol Hill, with stations at both neighborhoods. However, geography made First Hill Station unfesiable. The First Hill Street was built as a compromise, to connect First Hill to Link.

[@auberginebear]

There is also a streetcar in Tacoma and an extension of the original length opened summer of 2023, and as for the Seattle streetcars, they were intended to connect via 1st Ave (so as to pass Pike Place Market) but there was so many issues to the construction in Pioneer Square, from contractors charging too much and Seattle City Council not paying attention to there being food from Old Seattle in the street being too expensive to tear out once they corrected the overcharging by changing contractor, that they used almost all the money for the whole project just on what work they did in Pioneer Square. (Also, Amazon gives out free bananas most days.)

[@Jebbis]

That's why the city should just create their own construction department. Private companies have drastically driven up the price of the construction of the California High Speed Rail. Hell had the city had their own unionized branch it still would be cheaper than hiring private contractors.

[@PontiacCZ]

And they have trolleybuses as well. Interesting.

[@Thom-TRA]

Make sure to check out my video about their trolleybuses!

[@erik_griswold]

Legacy of the original Streetcar system which was converted to “Trackless Trolleys”

[@casksj356]

I visited Seattle in September and was able to use all modes of public transit. I’m glad they’re expanding Link.. also went up to Vancouver for a couple days on Amtrak. I can’t wait to go back in the near future.

[@jonathanhege5029]

Thank you for the video, Thom!

[@Thom-TRA]

You’re welcome!

[@MattMcIrvin]

I've seen the South Lake Union line running, but I didn't actually ride on it--on my last trip to Seattle a couple years back, I just rode the trolley buses everywhere (there's quite a network).

[@michaelb9629]

I just knew for a long time that Seattle has a streetcar and a monorail system. That’s cool how Portland has that too as those cities are not super far from each other and are located on the west coast northwest of the U.S. Can’t wait for the monorail report to be next!

[@BirbarianHomeGuard]

Pre covid you could walk faster than the streetcar during rush hour

[@amfm889]

Still can!

[@marc85565]

I've been watching your videos for about a year, it's cool to see you covering Seattle's transit! I live right on the First Hill Streetcar line and ride it almost everyday. I don't have my car with me in the city so it's very convent to take the streetcar to Capitol Hill or CID. I've actually never ridden the SLU streetcar though, maybe if they ever build the connector. I'm really looking forward to the East Link Extension though, Sound Transit needs to hurry up!

[@Thom-TRA]

Glad you’re enjoying the videos!

[@EricaGamet]

I ride the SLU one frequently and hardly ride the First Hill one... and I live in Capitol Hill! I really wish they'd connect them... but I really don't think that's ever going to happen.

[@auberginebear]

@@EricaGametprobably not. Seattle City Council really dropped the ball on the connector but the real roadblock wasn’t something anyone could have foreseen.

[@londonwhaley8690]

I enjoyed that video👍👍

[@worldsightseer]

San Diego, CA also has a streetcar (Silver line) operating as a loop in downtown, while, the light rail has operation into the suburbs and to the Mexico border. Dave T.

[@AssBlasster]

if only the silver line were running

[@marcusrose5943]

Dallas has 2 unconnected street cars too hopefully they fix that soon

[@officialmcdeath]

Thanks for your considered assessment of a seemingly fragmented system - there follows a sequence of responses mirroring that fragmentation,presented in increasing order of silliness. Firstly, if we hark back to your Salt Lake City coverage, a pattern emerges that might be relevant to further transit penetration in NA, whereby an isolated tram feeder can be adopted as the heartbeat of a community. Agree that that connector and redefined on-street priority would maximise that. Thereapart, the European counterpart of the overall system as you show it would be Barcelona. Secondly, no TRA video would be complete without reference to the Uetlibergbahn, same as Jago would be naked without Charles Tyson Yerkes. It's one of my all time favourites too and, as stated previously, the trolleybus crossing at Friesenberg would make a worthwhile side-quest when you get back there. Thirdly, your thumbnail immediately reminded me of the last verse of Mellow Yellow by Donovan - who knew a mid-20th century seeker of knowledge could predict the state of YT in 2024? Lastly, you must by now have a whole drawer full of stored value cards with remaining funds from around the world - might be a handy topic for a light hearted holiday bonus clip - in any event, thank you both for your dedication and more power to you \m/

[@Thom-TRA]

I have an album in which I keep all my cards! If I know I’m going on a trip, I’ll pull out the necessary cards! Unless they’re limited edition, then I keep them safely tucked away.

[@officialmcdeath]

@@Thom-TRA good call - and a good storage problem to have! \m/

[@Rondomino47]

Hi Thom, Great seeing you and Lindsey in beautiful Seattle. When you were visiting Dan Francisco, you covered Muni Metro, the City's light rail line, but did you ride the F Market Street Car?

[@Thom-TRA]

Yes, if you look at my page you’ll find the video

[@Rondomino47]

Thanks Thom, I will. Don’t know how I missed it.

[@Thom-TRA]

That's okay, hope you enjoy!@@Rondomino47

[@AguadillaCGN]

you should mention why they travel mostly with pantographs down and on battery

[@Thom-TRA]

Then I would be repeating myself mostly because I’ve already covered it on other systems

[@MikyleChristian]

Would love another Thom in the Midwest video! Just found out that ill be traveling to Wisconsin quite often and would love to see some small town Midwestern urbanism to check out.

[@Thom-TRA]

If I make it back to the Midwest someday I’ll consider it!

[@auricom8472]

South lake union trolley.

[@teecefamilykent]

Brilliant video and of course to the ever daft lynsdey:-)

[@FirebrewTV]

Charlotte has the Gold Line streetcar and the Blue Line light rail. Looks like the red line commuter rail might actually come to pass since there seems to be an agreement in the works with Southern RR to use the existing tracks.

[@Thom-TRA]

Wow, commuter rail in Charlotte. Who would have thought!

[@SleepTrain456]

As always, I found this quite an informative video! Now, I know more about the two streetcars in Seattle (which, I, too, hope, will be connected together). Meanwhile, I noticed that the Seattle Streetcar's vehicles are similar to (but not the same as) the vehicles on the T Line of the Link light rail (which is fitting, since they're in the same area). Thanks for the video!

[@Thom-TRA]

I believe the T line vehicles are the same as some of the ones in Portland and DC

[@SleepTrain456]

That's correct, @@Thom-TRA! The T Line uses three Škoda 10 T vehicles, the same type found on the Portland Streetcar, while the DC Streetcar vehicles are an American-made version of them. Thanks for the comment!

[@johnslyfield5096]

Tacoma Link As sound transit likes to refer to it, or the T line, is really a glorified streetcar. uses the same types of vehicles both Seattle and Portland does. Because of Tacoma's hills, they had to be very creative in getting it up to Hilltop and St Joseph. The fact they did this is awesome.

[@Thom-TRA]

Didn’t an extension open not too long ago?

[@matthewb5364]

I don't usually go far off the Link's beaten path in downtown, but I might just have to check out the streetcars from curiosity! I rode several on my recent Study Abroad trip around Europe.

[@Thom-TRA]

There’s lots to see everywhere!

[@kevanhubbard9673]

Portland is relatively near Seattle, although I wouldn't like to walk it,so it stands to reason that ideas from one city influences the other.I culturally they may be similar too although as I have never been to either that's just a guess!

[@roscalenecrailfanning8847]

You think you can do a Tri rail video soon because of the new Miami expansion? I would love to see that.

[@Thom-TRA]

It’s coming soon I promise

[@roscalenecrailfanning8847]

@@Thom-TRA yess

[@DanteBarnhart]

As a Seattleite, we all found it pretty funny when they named the South Lake Union Train. Nobody thought about the acronym SLU

[@rockinmel1]

*Trolley

[@Brian_rock_railfan]

really hope Seattle connects the to streetcar lines together

[@Thom-TRA]

Me too!

[@SleepTrain456]

So do I! After all, it makes perfect sense!

[@psgouros]

It should be pointed out for posterity that it was originally called (and people were encouraged to ride) the ‘South Lake Union Trolley’ but was fairly quickly renamed ’Streetcar’ by someone with more prudish sensibilities…

[@erik_griswold]

While not a rail vehicle, Seattle also has an extensive network of frequent Electric Trolley Buses which are a legacy of its original streetcar system having been converted to “Trackless Trolleys”. They compliment both Seattle LINK (different from Tacoma LINK) and both the First Hill Streetcar as well at the South Lake Union Trolley (S.L.U.T! 😂)

[@Geotpf]

I was wondering who would be first to make a "He rode the slut!" joke.

[@realquadmoo]

The time to proceed with the connector project while using federal funding has run out which means that the plan we’ve had for it is no longer able to be built

[@Thom-TRA]

That’s unfortunate

[@realquadmoo]

@@Thom-TRA yeah ;( but idk fingers crossed maybe we will get a new much better proposal for a connector. I’m hoping we get one that goes on the waterfront, there’s so much room for dedicated tracks between the road and the bike lanes, and it could easily ramp up back to 1st Avenue

[@jamisonwieser]

That's a great/terrible point@@realquadmoo. Having refused federal funding, authorities running the project will need to start the entire application process again, including the planning and study required, get the approvals, get slotted in a priority list, and potentially wait years until funding becomes available. Even if the plan is to update the documents and resubmit, it's a chance to reconsider elements because a of things might have changed in the meantime: needs, priorities, attitudes, changes in laws affecting the plan developments, opportunities to coordinate with any bus, rail, and infrastructure plans drawn up in the last ten years or so, etc.

[@realquadmoo]

@@jamisonwieser Yea that is how time works, yes

[@lecho0175]

4:07 What's the idea behind this choice in the station design? Why?

[@MrCrazycook8]

"Ridership doubled since they opened..." So, they have 2 passengers now? :) Seriously, I like watching your videos Thom!

[@mqjahnke]

Eagle-eyed viewers will notice the pantograph lowered while traveling uphill on one segment - I think this is due to overhead conflicts with the trolleybus wires and I assume there's a battery system to drive through those segments - someone who actually knows what they're talking about want to share? Also - the SLU line originally was derisively (and now affectionately) called the South Lake Union Trolley. I'll give you a second to think about that one ;)

[@TJHorner]

is the guy at 5:23 in the top right giving the streetcar driver the bird? lol

[@maximum988]

Uhm is that hotel using “fireproof” as one of its two selling points?

[@Thom-TRA]

Ah but staying in highly flammable hotels is so much cheaper!

[@Brian_rock_railfan]

Seattle still has 2 🚋🚋streetcars that run on the Seattle waterfront streetcar line that's mostly gone now 😥

[@rockinmel1]

The waterfront line was torn out decades ago. (Buses painted like streetcars ran on that route for a while, which is what you might remember.) Just like all of the streetcars from the early 1900s, several yards of remaining track are all there is to remember it by, and a couple of years ago they finally tore down the remaining station on Main St. a block north of the new streetcar terminus.

[@roblox-xp5tr]

Yeah czech tram nice

[@Maunico0809]

Would be so nice if they connected them

[@brycebundens6866]

Super cool that the streetcars in Portland, Seattle, and DC are all the same design!!

[@southpuddle]

It’s a complete miss that the first hill line isn’t at least being lengthened along the new waterfront.

[@benjaminleis979]

Note: The SLU line is on the verge of being shut down.

[@Thom-TRA]

Really?

[@benjaminleis979]

@@Thom-TRA yes lack of ridership (a little under 500 a day - that's about half what it had on opening) + rapid ride lines working much more successfully, maintenance issues and impending very long term closure for link construction. The bright side is the dangerous to biking rails could be taken out.

[@kaanotta]

TWO DOLLARS? No surprise they arent used much

[@Thom-TRA]

That’s pretty normal in the US

[@CricketThomas]

$2.20 is crazy for one ride.

[@EricaGamet]

Don't forget, if you use the ORCA card, you can travel on one fare between buses, streetcar, and lightrail for a 2-hour window. I can easily ride all three modes while running errands and do it for $2.75 (which is the bus fare and the most expensive).

[@sammymarrco2]

they look and sound awfully similar to the DC streetcar.

[@Thom-TRA]

They are the same!

[@adog828]

How can the Seattle streetcars run without being connected to a pantograph 🤔

[@Thom-TRA]

They actually run on battery power for part of the journey!

[@eric_d4073]

Monumental waster of money, they could just add bus routes and achieve the same results at about 1/10th the cost

[@acde9355]

Thanks for your informative video. I highly appreciate these American cities that value the benefits of public transport. By the way, the view at 3:28 is so similar to that in Europe.