Second Front: A Comparison To ASL

[@ASLAcademy]

I'll be posting a video in the next couple days called "Understanding Defensive Fire" that will show you the secrets of exactly how the AI fire's against your moving units, and how it's exactly like the ASL defensive fire mechanics. Master it, and you can can master the game.

[@errantknight-f2z]

This direct comparison to ASL is exactly the type of review I was looking for. Very useful!!

[@ASLAcademy]

There are more comparisons I could have made, but I was already past the hour mark. Thought I should stop. 😁

[@danerogers9058]

I played ASL in High School. Graviteam Tactics Mius Front or Tank Warfare Tunisia 43 are basically the type of games I was looking for when playing ASL all those decades ago,

[@johnpayne498]

Thanks Neal. I just finished my second scenario in the game and it's enjoyable for sure. Never be the same but it's pretty close. As to the copyright infringement I don't think there's a problem. Combat Mission games have reproduced many ASL scenarios.

[@ASLAcademy]

You're right, I doubt there will be any issue. I'm not an expert in copyright law, but the thought crossed my mind.

[@antispeed]

@@ASLAcademy I believe that since the scenario builders are just sharing them for free and not selling them, there is no copyright issue. However, with this game borrowing so much from ASL, I wonder if there would be a copyright case for the game itself.

[@davidpowell270]

Thanks for the comparison Neal. I've been watching this development for somewhere between 1 to 2 years with the thought of it being as close to ASL as I've seen. Got the game as soon as it was available on Steam and been working through the tutorials as fast as I can. Seems like it has very good depth and complexity, but as you pointed out it has a nod toward playability and letting the software do a lot of the behind the scenes calculations. You can really dig down to a lot of the mechanics of the system for a much more refined knowledge of what tactics will work or not, while still getting a good "game". The AI seems pretty good so far as well even though my experience with it is limited at this time. Also, as you mentioned, I see myself creating ASL based scenarios through this. Looking forward to seeing more of your commentary on this game.

[@ASLAcademy]

Was thinking about it last night, relating to ASL scenarios. I think it will be good at re-creating them, but will have a limitation in that unit setups have to be in place already. I don't think it allows a player to set up their units wherever they want. So this might be a limiting factor.

[@peterkossits4794]

The first very competent review of this game that I've seen. Thank you sir!

[@paulsaunders6536]

Excellent comparative review. Bought this within an hour of the release. Closest thing to ASL available on the PC.

[@jamesguderian1248]

Good job much better over view than the computer players gave It is a buy for me.

[@ASLAcademy]

Thanks. I tried to look at it from the perspective of ASL players to help them decide.

[@mrsegundas3988]

Great review. As an ASL player I will probably get this.

[@ASLAcademy]

It's relatively cheap and a good ASL side distraction that can be played pretty quickly.

[@thestoicsteve]

A great demonstration of this new game. Interesting to hear your comparisons the the game you cover on this channel !

[@peterkossits4794]

Picked it up last night and went through the first two German vs Russian scenarios just using the manual as a reference (no tutorial). Was pretty easy. You can definitely plan Prep Fires and movements (minus bypass) with an ASL brain and it works great. Leader usage can also be approached as in ASL. Had more fun than I've ever had with any tactical computer game. The first scenario I played was actually surprisingly crunchy with a nice big interesting factory map, tons of forces to push around and interesting victory conditions (3 buildings to capture with different time limits on each one and a force balance condition). One little niggle is that the CC results get reported really quickly and it's pretty much impossible to follow as it's occurring. I think the game should have a little event log in the bottom corner of the screen so that we can have access to the details if we want them.

[@ASLAcademy]

An event log would be nice. An ASL player can jump right into the game with little guidance needed from the manual or tutorials.

[@kurthummitzsch9948]

Great video. Ive seen a few game play videos by players who never played ASL. I realized this is ASL on a PC. Much like original Squad Leader it starts with the same available forces. If memory serves I believe Brits came out in Crescendo of Doom originally. We will have to see what the developers future plans are. I used to play SL and ASL many decades ago. I'll probably pick this one up as I am getting a handle on game mechanics now from the videos. Thank you for a great comparison to the board game, that's lacking in most of the how to play videos.

[@ASLAcademy]

Dev has already stated that British/Commonwealth, Japanese, and desert are in the works. I resume PTO as well since he mentioned Japanese.

[@chrisfenn5801]

Hi Neal, from a couple of days of experience playing Second Front, 53:46 the Fire HE unaimed is Firing Area Target Type (ATT). where Fire HE on infantry is Infantry Target Type (ITT). It took me awhile to figure that out lol

[@ASLAcademy]

Yep, thanks! I finally saw how it relates to ASL last night during the live stream.

[@peterkossits4794]

Definitely tempting. I saw one of the campaign maps that looks like it's pretty much Red Barricades. Worth it just to play that campaign in a decent amount of time.

[@ASLAcademy]

Price of entry is pretty low. What did I say, $25 right now?

[@Anderson_101]

Just seeing the Microprose logo makes me want to buy this game.

[@ASLAcademy]

Flashbacks to the original X-COM game. Still play it occasionally.

[@garciaemir]

Another video I've been waiting for! Thank you, sir.

[@ASLAcademy]

You're welcome!

[@Phalanx11]

I played SL in the USAF back in the '70's. Bought all the add on packs. Played it 10k hours with friends in the USAF. At NSA there was a large wargaming contingent in the dorms. Even been to Avalon Hill HQ in Baltimore as NSA is on the property of Fort Meade army base in Maryland. Then to my dismay when I was getting out ASL came out. Never played it. I'm extremely familiar with Squad Leader and this game looks like my dream come true of a great Squad Leader experience. I'm hoping I'm right!

[@paulhadlington8179]

It appears one notable omission is the absence of MG fire lanes and Residual fire during the defensive fire phase.

[@trashl0rd]

I think it's funny that the majority of criticisms of this game have been "It's too much like a boardgame!" and "It's *not enough* like ASL!" Can't please everybody. Ingrates.

[@sbmicro1896]

Very useful! Thank you so much!

[@jfuente]

Wow, this looks great!

[@paulsaunders6536]

Interesting comment on the Gun firing at the crew. In reality the Americans would not know that the Germans had a StuG. That’s the big difference between what an ASL player knows because he has a seen the enemy OB before the game starts and what would be known in reality. It doesn’t need to be ‘fixed’ in my opinion, it’s more realistic. Of course if you are the American player you can revert to having the perfect intelligence on the enemy OB mode a fire accordingly😊

[@ASLAcademy]

Very true, but it's still a game. The AI probably knew there was a Stug (or some kind of vehicle) up the road, just like we'd know in an ASL game. Would an ASL player take a shot at the crew? Probably never. If the game is playing like you're suggesting, it's rife to be exploited. And if there's one thing gamers love to do is exploit weakness in coding/AI. 😁

[@peterkossits4794]

You can tell if a unit has shots left by looking at the thin line on the bottom of the piece. Starts green. Moves towards red as shots get exhausted.

[@jphalewijn]

A tutorial on basic tactics for an ASL 2nd front newbee would be great

[@StewsReplay]

Will this AUTO balance all the CH scenarios?

[@ASLAcademy]

Yeahhhhh...no. 😂

[@paulsaunders6536]

Not sure they’ve built a PC powerful enough to do that.

[@ASLAcademy]

@@paulsaunders6536 LOL

[@StewsReplay]

@@paulsaunders6536 They had one... It was at Chernobyl someone in the 90's

[@27Pyth]

roflmao!

[@StewsReplay]

Shouldn't be much Copyright issues. They don't Copyright actual battles in history. The entire format is different ONLY the scale is the same.

[@paulsaunders6536]

My thoughts as well. The original combat mission had a huge number of ASL scenarios as does the more recent PC game Tiger Hunt

[@27Pyth]

Wow. Thanks for this. Great review considering you obviously haven't spent _that_ much time with the game yet. That melee in the first example . LOL. So ASL!Decent odds... and die roll... ... total loss of two squads. Just like old times. Made me feel right at home. No residual? That's really too bad imo. There's so much tacitical stuff around residual and spray fire and firelanes. Any of that stuff in there? The no Firegroups is a big bummer (and no multiplayer is a massive bummer... ) But It looks very interesting even a dream come true for those of us who find SASL a bit dry and "dicey-charty:" I think a true ASLer willl enjoy this but miss those little tactical details, particularly in infantry. You know what tho.... automated routing oputside the player's hands... that is one feature I would support in regular ASL too.

[@herveledref636]

Thank you for this excellent tutorial. It makes you want to play, but I've also seen reviews on steam about inconsistencies in the management of the balance of power and some players much prefer "lock 'n load tactical digital" published by core game. Have you tested this game and do you have an opinion? Thanks

[@ASLAcademy]

I've not play LnL digital, but I plan on picking it up probably during the Steam winter sale.

[@herveledref636]

Neal, Thank you for taking the time to reply and let's look forward to a possible comparison with LnL Digital, which I'm sure will be very interesting.😉

[@mercster]

I've always fantasized about getting into heavy wargames like ASL. I think I fetishize them in my mind... my problem with war games usually is that I'm not a military expert who understands the differences between all the different tanks, guns, munitions, etc. But I guess in this game, they're picked for you anyway by scenario... I see you have a tutorial type series on this game, I might pick it up. Thanks for the videos.

[@mercster]

I've had some fun with Combat Mission: Shock Force 2, but the UI and mouse controls are god-awful... this looks like it would be kinda similar but with a much better UI and control scheme.

[@mercster]

Also I just found a digital version of Lock'n'Load on Steam, it looks similar to ASL and see it is a newer, simpler game that many like... have you played this and any thoughts? (I hope I am not offending an ASL player by asking about LnL.) :)

[@jona826]

On the copyright issue, I don't think you can copyright game mechanics. Anyway, I'm pretty sure Microprose's legal team will have considered this and decided they could get away with doing an ASL ripoff on computer.

[@thesixth2330]

After playing the game I have to agree with Neal 100%. This is basically VASL with Sprites and effects and a very nice GUI. I am not a fan of the art style they chose but the whole game is very well done. I will not play it though, and here is why. It feels wrong to me. IT is so close to ASL as to be a rip-off. The mechanics, counters, and everything besides the visuals are directly lifted from ASL, an MMP property. One which MMP struggles to keep in the green and on our tables (or screens) as mostly a labor of love. Now, I am not saying Second Front is going to be a blockbuster or even sell a lot of copies but it is being sold for profit which separates it from VASL and TTP (the software itself has a cost, not the ASL module). I know the developer of SF was/is an ASL player so that kind of makes it worse. You can even Skulk! LOL Even the name is a reference to ASL, it being the first front. Even the counters have the exact same values, just presented in a different way, using symbols in some cases and a different layout. Anyone could have taken ASL and made it visually pleasing, but that's like taking a song and making a remix, but you've got to give official credit where it is due. Maybe I am crazy? What do you guys think?

[@ASLAcademy]

I understand, and there's some truth to what you say...but I'll make a counterpoint. Most videogamers probably aren't going to take up ASL, so them buying/playing SF isn't really hurting ASL. And those ASL players who do buy SF (like myself) have probably spent thousands on ASL products, and have no plans to stop playing ASL, so that's not really hurting ASL either. The same argument could be made for ASL third party modules. They change counters, scenario sheets, etc to avoid copyright...but it's still 100% ASL. But it's embraced by the community who think most of the stuff improves the ASL system (or gives us more options). Tertiary point, I've had several people tell me they came to the channel looking for SF info, and had not clue what ASL was. So poked around the channel more to find out...and ended up ordering SK1. So there's that. 😁 AH/Hasbro had 40 years go make computer ASL, and one guy has gotten very close basically doing it on his own. That's kind of cool actually.

[@thesixth2330]

@@ASLAcademyAll Great points :)

[@27Pyth]

@@thesixth2330 I had all the same misgivings as you. @ASL Academy made some points I wanted to make (eg. MMP has had plenty of time to this if they wanted!) I'm no lawyer, but I think the IP issues here are clear enough that there must be some arrangement, perhaps undisclosed, between Microprose and MMP. Also, I think this game does function as an advertisement for ASL and may actually expand the ASL table top/VASL user base. Anyone playing this game is interested in something a bit retro, to begin with, and may well find themsleves checking out ASL/Vasl. Human competition is so much more fun/aggravating than playing vs. AI. And you get to spend all your money on seemingly infinite and rather pricey imo ASL add-on content.

[@chrisfenn5801]

so far, the only complaint I have with the game is that you cannot control your defensive shot. The AI always takes your shot and there are times I wish I could hold my fire, just like the gun taking a shot at your crew at 48:00

[@Javaslinger7730]

Any idea if this could be played on a touchscreen without a mouse?

[@ASLAcademy]

Hmmm, I couldn't say for certain. Some of the actions require a right mouse button click.

[@ckhenson]

You didn't get screwed on the CC. The game is seriously biased towards the AI player. I just advanced 3 squads and a leader, all concealed, into a hex with one Russian leader and one squad, not concealed. Yep, the Russians KIA'd my whole stack and only suffered the loss of a half-squad.

[@ASLAcademy]

Yep, sometimes you get screwed in ASL too.

[@paulsaunders6536]

I’ve had a leader and a hero take out a German 838 and 9-2 in CC. It happens

[@ckhenson]

@@ASLAcademy Don't get me started about getting diced. I think my average DR in playing ASL over 40 years is about a 10.

[@peterkossits4794]

I've gone through 5-6 CCs so far and haven't really seen any evidence of intentional bias towards the AI. I've won some easily. I've lost some that I should have won, and I've had one last a few player turns before they were done - which is really nice BTW. I'm glad they had the possibility of CCs going longer than one player turn and the units there not being able to fire out. I don't think I've ever seen that in a computer game before. Usually developers want to clean up those situations as quickly as possible.

[@Jacmac1]

So you seem knowledgable about how the core mechanics are supposed to work, is this a fair test or it is unfair to compare German/American infantry and the AI in this manner: kzbin.info/www/bejne/hZ6TfZeAj76FodE

[@ASLAcademy]

I commented on your video to try and explain what might be happening.

[@gurumze8013]

Great review! However, the fact that you cannot set up your units before the game starts is so frustrating, to the point that I'm not going to buy it just for that reason. This takes away a big part of the enjoyment you get in tactical games and especially if you are the defender it's almost half the fun. Very disappointing...

[@ASLAcademy]

I does make the scenarios much less dynamic, and makes scenario design for the game less flexible. I'm hoping he adds it later.

[@zero_wing_]

Have you played Valor & Victory?

[@ASLAcademy]

No, but I know of it. If it's a tactical (or strategic) computer game that looks like I'm moving counters I usually just defer to playing ASL using Vassal/VASL against a real opponent instead. SF is more "videogamey" looking, which I like.

[@zero_wing_]

@@ASLAcademy Thank you for replying to me. You should try it :) It plays better than SF imo.