Second Thought Doesn't Understand SociaIism

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#debate #socialism #communism

[@Yvädastra]

I used to be a big Second Thought watcher like 2 years ago. I eventually weaned off because I noticed he had a tendency to talk in absolutes and lack nuanced takes. Like, I hate capitalism, but it's far more complicated than "rich people are evil". Given that his style seems to have not changed, it does not surprise me that he doesn't have a nuanced understanding of socialism.

[@FelisImpurrator]

Ironically, the kind of thing you reach if you've never had a second thought about anything in your life and go with your very first knee-jerk monkey brain impulse.

[@anarchosherman961]

"Only Capitalists deal in absolutes." - Obi Wan Kenobi.

[@DrTssha]

I think this is the vibe I was picking up on that turned me off of Second Thought. Every statement was so certain, no grey zone, no ambiguity...it turned me off of watching anything else from him. I know people hate ambiguity, but I wish more people were okay with it. It's okay not to know things. It's okay to hold on to an idea loosely because you aren't certain it's right. It's okay to change your mind as new information comes along. It's okay to be uncertain.

[@thewhitefalcon8539]

Understanding "rich people are evil" is a big step up from where most people are today.

[@cedricrust9953]

if reducing ST's understanding of socialism to "rich people are evil" is what you got, then you must not have watched his videos. I recently watched one which, I think, went into what a socialist society would look like, and he explicitly said that rich people were to be pretty irrelevant in the whole affair. I do think he's stupid in some ways, like the dumb takes on North Korea and others, but he is still capable of making good, and, yes, nuanced videos.

[@godocs11]

Let's act like America is indeed worse than his favorite "socialist" countries...the things he's equivocating are STILL BAD and should be criticized when socialists do it too, even if it's not as bad as the US.

[@hughmungus2760]

half the reason why these socialist countries are bad is because the US sanctions the crap out of them and tries to overthrow their governments Constantly. Yeah you try being a successful anarcho-socialist society when you're being endlessly attacked by the world's greatest superpower. Im sure North korea and Venezuala wouldn't be economic basket cases if they could be allowed to trade freely with the rest of the world. Im sure Cuba wouldn't be locking up dissidents if the US wasn't trying to regime change them for 60 years.

[@UmQasaann]

​@@Gilgamesh-of6bjThe United States is a genocidal settler colonial project and an authoritarian revisionist empire. America is a prison house of nations built on blood and treachery!

[@SeruraRenge11]

It basically boils down to "my ideological enemies get to do it so why can't I do it too?"

[@angelmendez-rivera351]

I think the bigger issue is calling these things "socialist" to begin with.

[@godocs11]

@@angelmendez-rivera351 Agreed. My point was that even if you give him that and call them socialist (they're not), we should still criticize them for bad behavior. It's like when Zionists excuses their genocidal behavior by saying the US does the same stuff. Yes, the US does genocide. That doesn't mean you get to do it too.

[@Sneaker3719]

One note on Second Thought saying “tankie” has replaced the word “commie” as an anti-communist pejorative. Anyone who has spent any time being an anti-communist, like most Americans, will know that they never say “tankie,” because that term distinguishes between communists, and they hate all kinds of “commies.”

[@turbocat8329]

Most Americans don't even know the word tankie

[@wta1518]

Also, no one except leftists even know that Tankie is a word.

[@bulletsandbracelets4140]

yeah - most of my family is republicans. They only know "communists" and "libs". Tankie isn't on their radar. I've spent most of my life in the rural midwest and Vaush/streamers like him are the only ones I have ever heard use it to this day.

[@reedwhite203]

I am an outlier, but i used tankie sometimes when i was a furvent anti-communist. But I only used it as a talking term of the worst types of communists, specifically those in the defense of Stalin's regime.

[@wta1518]

@dr.osterman8158 Liberals are nominally leftists.

[@Makenai_]

Not to say any of them are good, but authoritarian government is not the same as a totalitarian government or Fascism.

[@cookies23z]

The "my brain contains his, in the junk drawer" is such a good line Shame for second that it is actually true

[@steven631764]

That line made me laugh, and he delivered it so matter of factly, too

[@blackveganarchist]

@@steven631764 Same here, the nonchalant tone made me laugh out loud. I was like dang chill out dawg, but then he went and predicted every single argument ST went on to make.

[@obiwanjabroniX]

It's not a great line, it made me turn the video off, even if he is right I can't be arsed with someone who feels above another. Just educate and do it without bragging, it's not hard

[@elmohead]

The funny thing is that modern China behaves like one gigantic capitalist company. The funnier thing is that a giant, capitalist company is structured like the Chinese government.

[@philpottkentucky4802]

Capitalism is the reason that poverty is being wiped out in China.

[@MatthewGreer-h3k]

I hate sounding like a conservative but I’m willing to bet that second thought or any of the people like him wouldn’t go over the North Korea and say the same things about their government that he does in America and post it online and not get black-bagged and sent to a North Korean prison. I know the American government has done a lot of bad stuff and has problems but it’s not even comparable to what these countries do and people like him don’t understand the value of the freedom to criticize your own government.

[@a.alphonso6193]

nah, that's not 'sounding like a conservative '. it's just common sense. and i hate that you can't just state facts without being accused of being an American bootlicker or something lmao

[@richardarriaga6271]

​@@a.alphonso6193They do it on Vaush in the comments.

[@hatterlass8293]

As silly as this may sound, thank you for doing this. Second Thought was a channel I watched that helped me get into socialism. I’m usually a casual watcher, so when this video came out, I decided to pay attention a bit more. After it ended, I felt off and couldn’t understand why. Then this video came up on my feed and something told me I needed to watch it. This perfectly voiced why I felt off about the video and even more. I’m in university, so keeping up with political knowledge, history, and definitions isn’t easy right now. You have my gratitude for doing this and, potentially, stopping my political beliefs taking a darker turn in the future. I don’t know what else I might have starting believing in if I stayed with Second Thought. You have my subscription, good sir. If you made it this far, thank you. I wasn’t expecting this to be so long but it just kinda happened. Does anybody have any good socialist channels or books that they can recommend? Anything related to political knowledge, history or theory would be nice as well; I’m interested in expanding my knowledge after university.

[@BetaKeja]

@WHATISPOLITICS69 has a series that starts by defining what political terms actually mean and then goes on to ask questions like "Why Every Communist Country is a One-Party Dictatorship". @Anark has a critique to On Authority and a response to the second thought video. I'm still working through his backlog. And both would recommend @Andrewism if you haven't heard of him already.

[@hatterlass8293]

@@BetaKeja Thank you for the recommendations!

[@haveagreatday6952]

Vaush accusing someone else of not understanding politics is top tier comedy

[@EditorToesheo]

Real

[@HunterTracks]

Stopped watching him during the start of the Russian invasion of Ukraine, his stance was extremely wishy-washy and full of Russian propaganda. It's funny how well February 24th 2022 worked as a litmus test for leftist engagement.

[@mirabeaux851]

We actually have fought a defensive war kinda. War of 1812 and ww2

[@pinkofastora]

My youth pastor would love this !

[@FilthyPhilify]

He's just trolling. He must be trolling. Tell me he's just trolling! this dude is exactly who 'Holiday in Cambodia' was written for

[@sluttyMapleSyrup]

I need to read the lyrics of that song. First heard it way back on Guitar Hero and it never stuck in my music tastes at the time even though it probably should've.

[@boredstudent9468]

And the surverillance of the US and 5-Eyes is pretty insane, not worse but neither defendable. And there are a couple stories how the US defintely doesn't black-bag innocent People, like Murat Kurnaz.

[@I_did_poopoo]

This is like when one of your good friends gets super drunk and gives their REAL opinion on "other races" 🤦‍♀

[@dontask3613]

Bro I used to like his video but then the ukraine conflict happened and he kept just saying shit like infering that ukraine should just give up and it was there fault and USA's fault for NOT surrendering to russia that people were dying. The ONLY negative thing I've ever heard him say about Russia was in one tiny clip on his "news" channel about how Russia made it illegal to be gay or trans I can't remember the exact story but yeah he is definitely a bit strange

[@EnemyBikeCo]

I feel it's weird that anyone would say authoritarianism is a vague concept. It's basically the most straight-forward political idea there is.

[@MagusMirificus]

That's why it's almost always authoritarians trying to muddy the water who say that.

[@Jay2JayGaming]

When the Reds won, they systemically assassinated, disappeared, enslaved, and oppressed their opposition. When the Founding Fathers won, they systemically defended, pardoned, and enabled their political opponents. The US did it again in the Civil war too (which... had unfortunate consequences). So yeah, I'd say the Founding Fathers did exclusively what they thought was necessary- though whether not any given individual act they engaged in was necessary is debatable. In contrast, very little that Stalin or Lenin did was truly necessary, and it destroyed their country. It actively weakened their nations, which put the Soviets in a position that was so weak, they almost lost to the Nazis due to a lack of competent officers and material disadvantage. (Contrary to common tankie knowledge, US aid came way sooner than Stalingrad- it was just in the form of badly needed food, medicine, blankets, and shoes) Like, their actions were bad regardless of the ideology they propagated. We saw similar nonsense go on in France during the French Revolution. Very little of the mass killings were necessary.

[@Redmanticore]

52:18 zero people bro in a country of 1.4billion people, habeeb it

[@redgladius9919]

On Authority is the worst thing Engels ever wrote as far as impact.

[@AceofDlamonds]

Also does he mention the state sponsored executions of which none of the statistics are made public??

[@PresidentAshenHeart]

Vaush, you NEED to debate JT Chapman (Second Thought). It would be the greatest socialist vs. tankie battle of all time. He called the Hamas terrorists "freedom fighters" in his video, that was likely the reason he got kicked off Nebula.

[@ausername8699]

Vaush has tried to reach out, but apparently JT is a huge sissy. I imagine a debate would probably go like it did when Vaush debated Hakim, with him tearing through Hakim's terrible logic and ultimately backing him into a corner.

[@666tiger7]

As a longtime Vaush hater, I'm officially now saying "Vaush good".

[@EvilStevilTheKenevilPEN15]

Someone finally said it. Joseph Stalin was quite possibly _the single worst thing_ that has ever happened to leftist movements, and modern leftists shouldn't be aiming to repeat the USSR's _many_ mistakes.

[@sciencesociety2919]

Stalin actively destroyed worker and communist movements *everywhere* , from wiping out much of the Old Bolsheviks to essentially subverting revolutionary elements during the Spanish Civil War (essentially handing the victory to Franco) and his ridiculous "socialism in one country," his attempted alliance with Hitler, and him leaving the USSR utterly defenceless during Operation Barbarossa thanks to his many purges of the Red Army, ignoring intelligence agencies that tried warning him about the Nazis plan to invade, and oppression of Ukrainians, which led to them almost joining the Nazis. Yeah, Stalin did more to prevent the spread of communism than anti-communists did.

[@Ironcorgi2]

The next one id say who is as bad is mao. Neither Stalin nor mao were educated in economic policy. Stalin was a thug and mao grew up a peasant. None of their policies were truly socialist or even communist. All they did was put a bad name to all leftist causes to the modern day

[@Zydia]

There was a reason the first people killed by Stalin where the people closest to lenin. And he huntet Trotzki for 30 years.

[@chillme4580]

i thought hitler was the worst thing to happen to the left movement

[@deusexmachina5769]

​@@chillme4580 No, why would he? Sure, he killed a lot of them, but he didn't actually harm leftism. Leftists still existed and support for them actually grew in many places. What Stalin did, was that he portrayed himself as a leftist, while implementing fascism, which links leftism stalinist fascism in the minds of a lot of people.

[@harismeld9411]

My jaw hit the floor when he dropped "Let's check how many people chinese police have killed: zero!" COMPLETELY straight faced holy shit you have to respect the audacity

[@geraltsnake395]

I refuse to believe he actually thinks that way. There is just no way.

[@frocco7125]

Absolutely embarassing.

[@whysocurious7366]

@@geraltsnake395yeah, but OP has a point. Second thought is like Cucker Tarlson but for China. Completely serious delivery of EVIL propaganda.

[@MayorofHopeville]

They didn't die! They just never contacted their family ever again for some reason! Probably serving the glorious party.

[@Frostwho]

Well I mean Chinese does not armed their police soooooo…..

[@runagaterampant]

Second thought: "we should criticize our own country and not focus on others" I'm Finnish. Second thought would never say to me that I shouldn't criticize the US. Not in a million years he would. Also, China is by far one of the major superpower countries of the world. China and the US are both huge in power and influence. Of course anyone should be able to criticize them.

[@CleanupKrew7]

Obviously, because he's specifically talking to the United States lmao

[@VladimirPutin-p3t]

​@@CleanupKrew7then he's not making a philosophical argument, he's just out to bash the US.

[@nhaedzwero43]

​@@VladimirPutin-p3t love it when US people try to hate on their country. All of us who got their governments destroyed and our futures crushed because of their control over continent-wide territories will hate you and your governments for so, so long, and with so much fury; you criticizing your country is a mockery of those you stepped on to be as privileged as you are today, have some shame, your white fist transcends borders and is at global scale, your guilt should as well.

[@kacperpiotrowski7239]

Can you criticize Isreal Or Palestain? what about Cuba or North Korea? Anyone should be able criticize anything, period. It best not to have any sacred cows.

[@SeruraRenge11]

I struggle to call China a superpower, I've seen too many of ADVChina's videos to know the country is mostly a paper tiger that cares more about putting on appearances than actually being a well-functioning society, face culture and all that. It's why they're so bad at soft power and instead focus on hard power like military and economics, because China has very few friends on the world stage since apparently the thing they're most like Trump in is you make friends by being a bully to all your neighbors (protip, it does the opposite and makes them hate you). It's really an entire society built around bullying because whoever can throw their weight around and intimidate others in local affairs, runs shit.

[@TrepidDestiny]

"The west does authoritarian things, therefore authoritarian is meaningless, therefore my favorite 'socialist' countries can do an authoritarianism and it's ok uwu" It has "US slavery was ok because all countries have had slaves" kind of vibes.

[@Adamantium93]

I have been trying for days to find a good analogy for this and I think you nailed it.

[@CivilWarMan]

Second Thought's argument in that video has a lot of "You say slavery is bad, but did you know that *Africans* sold slaves to the Europeans?" energy in it.

[@filipmaly6603]

The whole video is just "I want to have cake and eat it to". On one hand West/USA is this authoritian regime spying and persecuing any disend, on the other hand people in Imperial Cores have it that easy that they have forget that we need secret police for counter - counter revolutition.

[@someguy7819]

"My neighbor beats his wife why can't I?"

[@MensHominis]

Holy damn his whitewashing is so unhinged! And so easily to disprove! How can anyone be this delusional without(?) getting paid?

[@Sneaker3719]

Vaush’s unapologetic hatred of tankies is legit one of the things that got me hooked on him in the first place, and willing to hear out his anti-capitalist critiques, and becoming the ardent socialist I am today. I’m a living testament to the idea that simping for or being permissive of simping for these awful societies is a gigantic issue that leftism faces.

[@dustinchen]

Liberal

[@W333L]

@@dustinchentankie

[@babygronkfortnite]

​@@dustinchentankie

[@smelly551]

yeah Simping for china, russia and the USSR has driven me away from the left. I no longer get involved

[@Akumasama]

@@dustinchen tankie

[@realpv_aka_vp]

17:15 we actually still have this kind of a joke in Russia when someone says something thats against the government, someone else in the call or the person who said the thing can say "Sorry mr. officer, this was joke, none of us has an opinion like that", implying that the call is wiretapped

[@sluttyMapleSyrup]

So like our "We know you're listening, FBI/NSA" jokes here in North America?

[@realpv_aka_vp]

@@markbranham7355 the problem is that if someone wiretaps your phone you still can say "Fuck Biden" and be fine, but Russian people can't be sure they can say "Fuck Putin" even in a seemingly private conversation

[@CraigKeidel]

​@@realpv_aka_vpFor now. But anti-socialist sentiment and a third red scare are starting to kick up. And with both parties trending towards state use of the justice department to crack down on "dissidents", as well as orgs like Palantir providing heavy tech resources explicitly for the state apparatus, we're not far away from the possibility of the Justice department declaring all leftists a threat to state rule, utilizing machine learning in state surveillance, and disappearing anyone they want under nebulous reasoning, if any is provided at all.

[@SuperKeithers]

here in the states we like to talk to our fbi agents during phonecalls

[@abirdnamedwill]

We do the same joke in the US where we pretend everyone has a personal FBI agent listening in lolol.

[@cameraman502]

"Authoritarianism is when the government can look your address" a man who is apparently unfamiliar with a phone book

[@leftistdegeneratejs]

It’s a shame that second thought has gone off the deep end, his early videos about socialism were actually really good and a good entry point for people unfamiliar with the concept

[@eddiefinlaw8045]

"off the deep end" lol relax

[@Chinesetakeout382]

@@eddiefinlaw8045being a fascist is going off the deep end, yeah.

[@xx_isabel_the_wolf_xx3869]

​@@eddiefinlaw8045he's got 4chan agreeing with him, not a good sign.

[@aspacelex]

Were they?

[@comraderobespierre]

hes not fascists lmao average voooooooosh watcher@@Chinesetakeout382

[@mortenskovdal]

"The US police is the most brutal in the world BY FAR" - Coddled U.S. Tankie that has never stepped foot in The Global South.

[@PDVXXL]

And in which states, if exactly?🤔

[@tylersmith3139]

The Global South is a stupid term. Let's be honest, most Central American states have less brutal police forces than the US. You don't hear constant stories of police beating people in Belize.

[@michaelbarry1293]

Brother, how do you think the Global South got that way in the first place?

[@kiwenmanisuno]

@@tylersmith3139 The global south is ONLY Central American states. Right Anyway let's talk about the middle east, south Asia, half of Africa, China, Vietnam, Myanmarr....etc

[@kiwenmanisuno]

@@michaelbarry1293 Because of heavy European colonialism, the global south was poor and weak af. And in poor countries with little resources, it's extremely easy for the state to be taken by a fucking dictator

[@blackwatertv7018]

The second a “socialist” or “Marxist” starts going on about how “authoritarianism is good actually!” They’ve gone full Tankie.

[@synchronium24]

I appreciate the tacit admission that most socialist trans activists are Tankies.

[@steve94183]

Tankies are just the left arm of fascism.

[@blackwatertv7018]

@@synchronium24 Zero trans activists call for any sort of authority whatsoever. In fact most are very much anti-authority. Most Tankies however are transphobic as fuck

[@Brazilsfirstcommiefemboyleader]

​@synchronium24 Uh...where did you get the stats? Edit: Oh, just an transphobe

[@Brazilsfirstcommiefemboyleader]

​@@steve94183Therefore...essentially the far right still? A thin aesthetix red layer doesn't make the fascist less fascist

[@butHomeisNowhere___]

Bro never even had a First Thought 💀

[@jordanjohnson9866]

Nah. /

[@viaxxl]

lol

[@AgentAika001]

HEYO!

[@supertesla47]

welp, he was like 76, maybe he wanted to die? idk?

[@parisky5195]

The fact that this guy can make this video, post it, and then just carry on and not worry about getting killed or abducted or even censored is proof that US internet surveillance is not equivalent to authoritarian censorship campaigns.

[@O-pm8bb]

This is what I always say to western Putin simps, move to Russia if you really like him so much, come on, what's stopping you 🤦🏽‍♂️

[@Fennerrex]

I think you're missing Second Thought's points. As is Vaush. Second Thought isn't equivocating Stalin's USSR to the modern US. But authoritarianism is authoritarianism, it isn't a spectrum. Whether the CIA tracks your internet use and calls in order to put you on a list if they think you're a threat, or the USSR disappears you in the night- both are authoritarian. Personal freedoms are given up to a centralized authority who is given the right to wield that authority with violence if necessary. The US not kidnapping dissidents to send to a penal colony doesn't make the US not authoritarian. But propaganda has convinced a lot of people, especially in the US, that Stalinist Russia is the bottom limit of authoritarianism, not the upper limit. And I think for a lot of people, Second Thought's video is peoples first time wrestling with this concept

[@the-gadfly4743]

That's not a fact. That is an uninformed opinion. Second Thought was already censored by Nebula. So no you cannot conclude that he is "not worried" about being censored at all. And even if that was the case you still would not be able to conclude it. Just like you couldn't conclude that Islamic religious police is not an issue in Iran if you saw a woman in public without a head scarf.

[@the-gadfly4743]

@@HobanProduction You can say that he was banned for cause. What you cannot say is that he is "not worried" about censorship, which is the point that you are completely missing. Also, censorship by private companies is still censorship. Just like being blacklisted by Hollywood during McCarthyism was still censorship even if it was also done by private companies.

[@sparki9085]

​@@the-gadfly4743how is a company not doing business with someone censoring them? Especially when they can just go somewhere else and be heard by more people?

[@mikean7074]

I had only seen a handful of Second Thought videos before these recent events, he seemed like a decent chap, rather disappointed that he actually has these rather horrible opinions. Why is it so hard to find people that actually have reasonable and humanitarian political opinions?

[@MrDrManPerson]

Because they are so deep inside their cliques that they just bounce off each other and become more extreme. They dont practice diversity of thought in their friend groups. Which is really hypocritical from leftists who claim to care about diversity.

[@U.F.R.G]

He's an self described communist witch means he's an an talkie as actual leftits never self describe as communist do to people like this

[@RHLW]

Because its pretty uncommon for anyone to "remain in place"... be it political opinions, sports fandom, dedication to career grind... you either become more fanatical over time, going down the "purity spiral", or you become increasingly less so, you chill out. Chances are, it'll happen to you too, one way or the other, in your own opinions. You'll either become ever more extreme, or relax and stop taking it all so seriously.

[@arnigeir1597]

@@RHLW by that logic every person is going to become a milk toast centrist of a fanatical ideologue by the end...

[@Sturla-Tyr]

​@@arnigeir1597exactly

[@AmbrosiaPoly-yolkEgg]

Man's not called Second Thought for thinking twice, it's for thinking two incompatible thoughts at the same time.

[@WokeandProud]

Double think...clever comparison.

[@AmbrosiaPoly-yolkEgg]

@@WokeandProud I was worried it might go over people's heads, glad it didn't

[@grundgesetzguy]

Literally 1984

[@fjordojustice]

The widely-believed idea that these authoritarian states are communist/socialist is such a massive problem. I have an uncle who seems amenable to leftist ideas, but when I last talked to him about socialism I could not get past his firm beliefs that modern day China is somehow a socialist country, and that communism is the same thing as fascism. How am I supposed to argue with him, when the people who publicly call themselves "communists" are often all too happy to associate leftism with any authoritarian regime that happens to have a red flag. What Vaush is doing here isn't "punching left" - it's attempting to cut out a festering blight on leftist advocacy and public perception.

[@Zekiraeth]

Yeah I feel like when I try to advocate socialist ideas a majority of the time is spent explaining that the USSR wasn't actually socialist and that the things I want to do are different from the things the soviets did. I've sometimes thought about if it would make sense to replace the word socialism with a new word that means the same thing, just to distance ourselves aesthetically from tankies and all the cold war baggage. However, I don't know how we would convince people to do that or if it would even work.

[@K8theKind]

Progressives are way ahead of you. Venturing left of the liberals without associating themselves at all with tankies or "commies"@@Zekiraeth So the word you're looking for? Progressive.

[@sluttyMapleSyrup]

​@@Zekiraeth It doesn't help that "socialism" is kind of the best and most self-explanatory term for the policy ideals and goals which make up the whole of the ideology.

[@cakeandraptors6306]

i have the exact same issue with my aunt, she will just never believe me that communism isn't inherently an "atheist dictatorship" 😔

[@pineapplepenumbra]

@@cakeandraptors6306 It's almost funny how religious people identify Atheism with Authoritarian Communist Dictatorships. I guess they never read the bible...

[@kasane1337]

I love how Second Thought gets to point out Authoritarian elements of western countries and just completely ignores the fact that we criticize these elements as well. Hell, we are even able to criticize them, that's already an improvement compared to some countries unfortunately...

[@sciencesociety2919]

It's always amusing watching authoritarians claim liberal democracies are more autocratic than literal dictatorships because if that were true, your videos would've been immediately banned and you'd be thrown in jail. Liberal democracies are not the paradise that liberals make them out to be, but they are a one up from dictatorships (not to be confused with "dictatorship of the proletariat").

[@philpottkentucky4802]

If you hate American freedom so much, leave.

[@KindlyCryptid]

How hard is it to just say “America bad, but North Korea worse”??

[@AD-qc5zd]

Literally causes hernias, cancer, dementia, and psychosis

[@doublinx2]

Side effects may include nausea, depression, anxiety, self-loathing, loss of "lefty cred" and s*icidal ideation

[@originalulix]

You see, America is inherently and wholly evil, and THEREFORE countries opposing it are automatically super cool. Simple.

[@manolgeorgiev9664]

It really depends on the perspective. North Korea and China are worse when it comes to the treatment of their own people, but US's external politics have been WAAAY more damaging. Both are really bad, but which is worse depends on your priorities. I think the scaling of bad/worse in that case if we consider the governments as a whole is very reductive. You can consider clearly which is worse when it comes to certain aspects of the governments, but when weighing in the governments as a whole, it's more subjective than anything else.

[@kasane1337]

@@manolgeorgiev9664 What the US does in terms of external politics is obviously far worse than NK because NK has only a tiny grain of political power. I assure you, if they had the same political influence as the US, their foreign policies would not be any better...

[@rongpirson5250]

The idea that "tankie", a word exclusively used by the left to criticise his rubbish non-ideology proto-fascist LARP, is equivalent to "commie", a word used exclusively by the right to criticise any and all policies further left than Augusto Pinochet, are somehow literally the exact same term is so fucking funny to me.

[@joshuacampbell1625]

Its funny, but its also very dangerous because if it gains enough traction, any criticism leveled at the likes of second thought can be dismissed as coming from non socialists

[@danielbarrera8391]

Can you expand on what you are saying here?

[@iMoD190]

@@danielbarrera8391 he's saying that it's wrong for SecondThought to equate the pejoratives 'tankie' and 'commie' because they have completely different origins and historic uses. 'commie' was created and used as a derogatory slur by rightists against communists, but also against anything they perceive to be remotely leftist. it is used just to be insulting. 'tankie', on the other hand, was used by leftists to criticise other leftists. it was invented by dissident members of the Communist Party of Great Britain who grew disillusioned with how the party would toe the line and always follow the lead of the Soviet Union. they used it to call out the authoritarians in their party who would defend the worst acts of the USSR, most notably the use of the military to supress the Hungarian Revolution and the Prague Spring. it is an insult, but it is also a valid criticism.

[@LimeyLassen]

The phrase "Let's dispense with the word 'authoritarian' " is chilling.

[@ausername8699]

Every fascist leader ever has needed to blur the line between defense and oppression to get the people on their side.

[@beardpandaa]

As Ethan Klein said, if this is how they define "revolution" I'm afraid for a potential US "revolution" tankies talk about

[@MrAllofyourbase]

​@@beardpandaa As someone who would die horribly the instant a revolution happened, being a socialist who also happens to be a literal cripple with severe mental disorders (if they were to be left untreated anyway), I do very much love how my existence can get used for idpol "everything is ableism" bullshit, but then I become acceptable losses, if I'm even *thought* of, when it comes to larping about killing everyone they can get their hands on.

[@TheNerevahkiin]

I hate tankies so fucking much, man. They really are just fascists who like red aesthetics

[@aspacelex]

Literally no difference between that and fascists trying to convince you the word fascism is too overused to be meaningful.

[@LustWaffel]

For a Finnish person these "truths" about USSR seem incredibly funny. We were one of the few countries that had the ability to fairly freely travel in USSR. We are close to Estonians so we have heard their stories and I don't think CIA is paying random Estonians or Finns who traveled to USSR to lie about facts about USSR 😂

[@UmQasaann]

Sad that the Finnish fascists and their German overlords didn't got Karelia back? lol

[@LustWaffel]

​​@@UmQasaann are you always this lazy when talking to people? Continuation war is little bit more complicated than one sentence reply you offer and I'm talking about post WW2 or is a country completely ruined by its past because I have bad news about UK and US 😂

[@tomgu2285]

​@@LustWaffel and what did the Estonians and Finns told you?

[@tomgu2285]

​@@LustWaffel and no one is telling you that you got fucking paid by Finns and Estonians. You guys are just ultra right wing and anti communist.

[@LustWaffel]

@tomgu2285 I mean I am Finnish but the fact of that people usually try to downplay authorian aspects of USSR. It is very evident like forced deportations and how people in gulags were treated. It is funny how people like second thought pretends that people weren't worked to death in gulags and it is all CIA paid people lying about it.

[@erfarkrasnobay]

Hey, I don't know how to convey how calming this video is. As an Eastern European, I am shocked by how there are people justifying cannibalistic authoritarian regimes.

[@zapatasghost]

Right. BUT It's important to go after the people with power who do this - and I think that is what Second Thought is trying to convey more than anything - AND which Vaush seems to overlook.

[@panaitteodor9982]

Second Thought was literally simping for non-western people with power and money who are using said power and money to shit on everyone else. What video did you see?

[@martinfiedler4317]

26:53 That's factually WRONG. You can very well run as candidate of a different party than the CPC in China. There is a select group of "alternative" parties that are licensed by the CPC.... 😉

[@NothingIsKnown00]

Why does anyone feel compelled to “balance” criticism of countries like China, with criticism of America? Both are worthy of it. But the structural differences are vast. It’s generally more useful to deconstruct each separately.

[@cmcneil726]

Didn’t the Chinese government disappear a lesbian tech KZbinr like two months ago?

[@ausername8699]

Shhhhhhh, America bad.

[@sluttyMapleSyrup]

Yes. Yes they did. Well, not "disappear" so much as "warn about disappearing" if she didn't stop posting videos about how to get around China's various Big Brother measures iirc.

[@Gus-n9u]

@@ausername8699both? Both is good!

[@morgan_drui]

@@ausername8699lol at your profile picture

[@ausername8699]

@@morgan_drui It's Brosef Swolin, dawg 😎

[@ScoopMeisterGeneral]

"Authoritarianism is a stupid word that people should stop using. Also, America is the most authoritarian country in the world. You think countries that call themselves socialist are authoritarian? That's dumb. They do bad things because they have to. The world sucks and there's nothing you can do about it." It's remarkable how little Second Thought actually said in this video.

[@pedrob3953]

He's also a big fan of Putin and other leaders of the same kind who use him and them discard him. The definition of a useful idiot.

[@nippruss]

Nevertheless, this is true if we talk about the abstractness of the word autoitarianism.

[@zapatasghost]

yes, but he pointed out some pretty sobering facts about U.S. authoritarianism that I'm pretty sure most Americans are wholly unaware. So, yes, despite its imperfections, JT's post, on the whole, is very worthwhile. Should JT consider a follow up post to correct or clarify some of his points in that specific "Authoritarianism" post? Yes. But, I know no Liberal that even bothers to acknowledge the degree of U.S. Authoritarianism and Imperialism - and THAT is the much larger and vastly more important point in my view.

[@avinashreji60]

@@zapatasghost No, that will just lead to the liberal to support authoritarians who are simply anti-West, agreeing is not enough you must know why you agree

[@dangelo1369]

Well, if you think that associating the US with authoritarianism is absurd, why don’t you study the period between 1877 and 1963 as far as African Americans were involved? If that isn’t the definition, then what is?

[@XMysticHerox]

I urge people to actually read "On Authority". It's not a great text (because it basically strawmans anarchism) but it has literally nothing to do with authoritarianism. Engels talks about Authority in the sense that after a Revolution there is still need for a government and various institutions. The term authoritarianism did not even exist at the time making Second Thoughts use of the text utterly absurd.

[@ajiththomas2465]

Anark has a really good debunk of "On Authority" that I highly recommend.

[@djordjetosic4553]

yea, and the video is about... post-revolutionary states having to impose authoritarian rules like prisons, internal security agency, censorship etc. whilst the liberal nation that have the same call them authoritarian.

[@XMysticHerox]

And to reiterate. The term authoritarianism did not exist at that time. It was coined in the 60s actually. When Engels speaks about authority he is talking about hiararchy broadly. He also makes it very clear that he does not want "more authority". He solely talks about the need to maintain some authority at the same levels as before giving the example of train conductors throwing disruptive passengers out among others. This is a general trend with MLs and their supposed "theory". Seriously when MLs say *anything* about Marx and Engels it's almost guaranteed to be a complete fabrication. Yet they are convinced they are basically Marx scholars. It's honestly insane and at a level you normally only find among religous fundamentalists and the like. @@djordjetosic4553

[@hughmungus2760]

what has anarchism ever achieved except open up room for the biggest asshole warlord to take over in the power vacuum?

[@alrecks619]

@@ajiththomas2465 i think Bakunin also specifically had an excerpt debunking it way before Engels made that text, which Anark put on his critique of ST's video.

[@mewhen9152]

"I was not allowed to speak down on my government or i would disappear" "Yeah but the police can see my tweets here in the USA so who really has it worse?"

[@narutouzumaki6409]

On the topic of secret police, my Russian professor grew up in the USSR and they made a thing of scratching instead of knocking on the doors so you knew it wasnt the KGB. There is no comparison to plain clothes officers. Closest thing is the systemic racism in the police force, but it isnt the same.

[@eternalcanadiandevyt]

Second thought always gave me weird vibes. Especially with this take on authoritarianism.

[@TreiberSeptim]

He puts on a charming front, and even makes some decent videos, but he’s ultimately a fascist, and has essentially admitted as much. Remember, fascists also hate capitalism, criticizing it doesn’t make you a leftist.

[@arnigeir1597]

@@TurtleChad1 it's like the opposite of that...

[@leonhardeuler7647]

@@TurtleChad1 You sound like the type to say bad morning to the class teacher.

[@80ki68]

​@@wanderingson *Says something retarded* *Refuses to elaborate*

[@zerorequiem1054]

​@@TurtleChad1but how can he be based when he talks like a f@@ and his shits all ret@red

[@Chinesetakeout382]

Keffals covered an older second thought video recently where he did openly criticize the Soviet Union’s use and development of chemical weapons. He used to be a lot better on this, but he deleted that video presumably around the time he cozied up to other fascists. This is why I’m not charitable towards him at all, I think he’s just a monster. He knows or at least knew why he’s wrong.

[@sluttyMapleSyrup]

Not chemical weapons, *biological* weapons. Weaponized versions of anthrax, smallpox, Black Death, and other terrifyingly contagious plagues.

[@Spar10Leonidas]

OK, before I watch this, I'm going to take a guess as to what Second Thought argues: that "authoritarianism" is a meaningless (or, at least overused) term, because "all revolutions are inherently authoritarian," and therefore all actions are inherently authoritarian and arbitrary (even though this idiocy goes against the entire point, as I understand it, of advocating for fairness or equality or opposition to fascism and the like, since apparently no position is better than the other... which sounds awfully "poStModERniSt" to me, for a bunch of alleged Marxists... couldn't *_POSSIBLY_* be just a bad faith obfuscation of the discussions surrounding morality and such so that they can justify their own brand of authoritarianism, right?). This is basically what I hear from tankies whenever you criticize their favorite "left-wing" dictatorships.

[@O-pm8bb]

What's funny is that tankies will say something like north Korea is Marxist or left wing... When there's literally an elite few who live in opulence while the proletariat starves to death... That's like the opposite of what Marxism stands for lol

[@Miner49er201]

Welp, it’s official. Unsubscribing to Second Thought and subscribing to Vaush. No regrets; hoping for more videos where Vaush laughs at politicians trying to get into fistfights.

[@Enkarashaddam]

Second thought is literally, no joking, actual propaganda. He's peddling state propaganda with higher production values probably better than NK themselves are capable of

[@irecordwithaphone1856]

He has a video called "You are not immune to propaganda" with a hypnosis thumbnail

[@tomgu2285]

​@@irecordwithaphone1856 and he is right....

[@mikem1917]

He should have been hired to be the spokesperson of the Soviet Union. Or he could learn Espanol and move to Cuba, for the Cuban CPC

[@jacob510]

​@irecordwithaphone1856 he literally admit to being propaganda in that video too.

[@manolgeorgiev9664]

Plenty of state propaganda KZbinrs on the platform. We are in the comment section of one such youtuber.

[@BleedForTheWorld]

He retweeted that insane Nazi doctor so that's enough for me.

[@historicalaccuracy15]

wait what

[@malditaseaintensifies-kd8ec]

I saaume you mean Hakim?

[@IAmTheBugInsideYou]

​@@malditaseaintensifies-kd8ecHe had a video in the last year or something that gave data & info for how socialism is objectively better economically & so on too. So clearly the whole fucking group jumped off the deep end together like wtf

[@BlueTyphoon2017]

@@malditaseaintensifies-kd8ecno I think he’s referring to someone else but I don’t know who. hakim is pretty… iffy himself as well. I think there was some evidence that came out that he was racist against Kurdish people? This was a while back I think, maybe, a year or two ago?

[@XMysticHerox]

Iffy is certainly one of the ways to say "insane fascist that wants to genocide kurdish people". @@BlueTyphoon2017

[@uli11]

27:00- circumstantial citation- It is socially taboo to talk about politics in China. The idea of you choosing to become a representative or join in with the government is super unheard of. Their politicians and representatives are pre-selected. Either grandfathered in due to a familial relationship- or selected due to school performance. The idea of political involvement is just not a thing. Instead the norm is to just "ignore it and leave it in the hands of the government." This is also legally enforced, but most Chinese people don't even run into that in their day to day lives, because of the social taboo. Heard this from a friend of mine from China.

[@hughmungus2760]

china has an active political scene at the local level.

[@uli11]

@@hughmungus2760 i mean I'm certainly no expert. I only have my friends who are from china- specifically a couple from Xiamen, and at least according to the one I'm closest to when I asked about politics, they said it was something you do not talk about or bring up, and you will get the stinkeye if you do. Might just be their experience, but it *seems* like that's true to the experience of a lot of chinese people (or former residents of china at leasy) I've spoken to. If you're from China I'd love to hear your experience.

[@hughmungus2760]

@@uli11 Depends what they define as politics. Big social and foreign affairs issues? Probably not popular to discuss amongst chinese, but local issues like wages, pollution, urban development, ect. that people seem to care about.

[@adrianliung8374]

Just a random thing to add, I have a few friends from China and they basically have to speak in coded language/softened language if they don't like the government. I certainly feel like I have to filter my words when messaging on WeChat too since I get the same sort of unspoken rule from them. Especially when it comes to sensitive topics. Honestly I find it so repressive and I don't even live there.

[@hollystardust]

we need to remember that there will always be new impressionable people watching leftist content, so there will always be a market for bottom feeders like ST to spout the basic tenets of socialism before diving off the tankie deep end. it's our responsibility to do better for those people.

[@O-pm8bb]

People like second thought is why normies think the far left is equivalent to the far right

[@XMysticHerox]

Yes and the only thing they are wrong on is categorizing people like ST as far left instead of the other option. But when you only look at the superifical shit aesthetics is all people tend to see. @@O-pm8bb

[@ZealothPL]

Please explain to me how do you plan to address the situation of 10% of the population basically owning all the shit out there without some form of authoritarianism?

[@andersonisowo9603]

@@ZealothPL Please explain how one guy telling everyone what to do is going to solve that problem. Let alone 'do socialism.'.

[@Drigeolf]

@@ZealothPL Authority is fine if its democratic(i.e. authorities are actually representatives of popular will, and directly beholden to the public). Quite a few of the problems in bourgeois democracies comes from the fact that the media and other information landscapes are dominated by billionaires who legitimize their rule by their media empires. The moment you stop allowing the means of production to be privately owned, you remove the financial incentive of owning and funding a media empire. And many other financial empires owned by the bourgeois. Could removing the bourgeois from power be considered authoritarian? Yes, and it is. I'm perfectly fine with that the same way I'm fine with imprisoning a murderer against their will or forcing someone to pay taxes at (metaphorical) gunpoint. If you're engaging in behaviour that causes immense socio-economic harm then you no longer should be allowed to hold any power. Anti-authoritarianism doesn't mean a "laissez-faire", "everything goes" attitude. There still must be a system(practically speaking a government) at least until communism is hopefully achieved. So to answer your question: make sure the power(economic and political) in society is as widely distributed as humanly possible.

[@billclockwell]

Is he seriously acting like people have never called the likes of Saudi Arabia authoritarian ?

[@donovan4222]

When was the last time the US government legitimately condemned Saudi Arabia or Israel?

[@braydenlanter95]

⁠@@donovan4222American diabolism strikes again. He said nothing about the American government’s position on whether or not Saudi Arabia and Isreal are authoritarian, but you brought it up as a cheap gotcha anyway.

[@hellfirdragon17]

@@donovan4222 whats your point?

[@t-rekt8527]

​@@donovan4222 Nice selfreport, G L O W I E!

[@jurgnobs1308]

​@@hellfirdragon17 it's donovan. nothing he ever comments on this channel makes sense. he is just a fascist who loves mass murder.

[@Juhz0r]

Regarding Stalin’s purges, I've been reading the the Marx-Engels Reader recently. It's a book that compiles writings from both of them, adding context and commentary along the way. Early on there is a short explanation about how Marx’s early unpublished writings, which expand on what he went on to write and show how his theory evolved, were acquired and published. The important part is that eventually photocopies of Marx’s unfinished writings were acquired by a Russian Marxist, David Riazanov, and he took on the task to edit them. Largely due to his efforts these important Marxist writings were finally published. The book then goes on to say that Riazanov was killed in Stalin’s purges. He was executed on trumped-up charges, and posthumously acquitted few years after Stalin's death. Obviously there are a hundred other reasons to hate Stalin, but I think examples like this are uniquely apt when talking about these pretend-socialist who play cover for or outright defend Stalin. A Marxist scholar who took on the effort to edit and publish some of the most important writings from Marx, executed by an anti-communist tyrant like Stalin, and these people who pretend to care about Marxism and Marxist theory simply shrug their shoulders. Pathetic pretenders. Sad!

[@FelisImpurrator]

That's actually incredibly based.

[@XMysticHerox]

I mean if you actually study Marx and Engels without being spoon fed the info by MLs it is *very* obvious their ideas are totally incompatible even with Lenin nevermind Stalin and the subsequent ML states. But at this point most people consume the writings through MLs I am afraid. On Authority is actually a great example of how a bad yet pretty innocent text can somehow be presented as a pro authoritarianism piece. Which is insane if you actually read it.

[@bigchonkerraccoon5046]

Most of second thoughts video isn’t about the nature of authoritarianism. It’s about America bad

[@kacperpiotrowski7239]

That's the think tho, I don't think that *they* think that they are "pretend Socialist" I also think that Stalin really did think of himself as socialist, still happy to see people start disvowing Stalin.

[@philpottkentucky4802]

Marx was the most profoundly evil person in history.

[@saliferousstudios]

This is why I got booted from "socialist" forum. I stated that china's not really communism, or socialism and that right now, it's kind of a bad place to be. 20% youth unemployment. 20%! China is a socialist country..... with very few to no social programs! And the workers have no say in the means of production! (pretty necessary for "communism")

[@anny8720]

bruh even my 'centrist' conservative chinese born dad readily acknowledges china is capitalist and authoritarian

[@philpottkentucky4802]

so the old "communism has never really been tried" argument lol

[@hlc617]

watching a video say that authoritarian "secret police" and "plain clothes cops" are the same thing, with Vox style editing, is actually comedy gold.

[@alonsofrancescutti4956]

I can't believe that editing has become maybe the most important factor when it comes to growing a channel

[@ausername8699]

Act like a know-it-all and say vaguely woke stuff while having over-stylized editing, and you're apparently an instant leftist celebrity.

[@cradio52]

It’s an absurd comparison on so many levels, not least of which is the fact that plain clothes cops are usually detectives, undercover agents and investigators. The formal “police uniform” is generally for street cops. Just because they’re not wearing a uniform doesn’t make them “secret police.”

[@temerianlillies]

@@cradio52 ST is literally right though

[@norman6524]

His videos were actually pretty good but once the train derailment happened, it's been downhill for his channel

[@topwomble]

Second Thought gets more and more insane the more you see of him

[@xx_isabel_the_wolf_xx3869]

He is becoming BadEmpenada

[@mikem1917]

Can't believe the Hamas take :(

[@manolgeorgiev9664]

​@@xx_isabel_the_wolf_xx3869 Nah, he is not based enough for that, not even close.

[@jacobjones1457]

I use to watch him until he said heading both sides is bad and his argument was pretty much how it sounds

[@jakuth99]

25:56 I hate the line he uses all the time about how America was the only country to use nuclear weapons. Like, yeah, we did 80 years ago and and the entirety of symmetric warfare since has boiled down to "don't use them". Just because we did doesn't mean we will. And just because no one else did doesn't mean that no one else would have or will.

[@richardarriaga6271]

Yeah, eventually we realized it was bad, then world-ending when other countries' expanded their arsenals.

[@sluttyMapleSyrup]

​@@richardarriaga6271 And that's why I wish there was a real analogue to the Metal Gear series' nuclear disarmament and non-proliferation group.

[@richardarriaga6271]

@@sluttyMapleSyrup Guns will never go away. People will make pipe guns or 3D printer guns.

[@sluttyMapleSyrup]

@@richardarriaga6271 Did you actually just conflate nuclear weapons with firearms? These are not the same, and guns can be regulated and restricted anyway, so Idk what argument you're trying to make. The same knowledge that makes nuclear weapons can be used to make nuclear power. We don't need nukes to annihilate cities, we don't need nukes to act as any kind of deterrent because clearly, the only things having nukes has ever deterred is other nuke-wielders from using their own, but it's done fuck-all to prevent armed and violent conflicts. Since most everybody agrees not to use nuclear weapons on each other, and there's only nine nations on the planet with nukes, it seems pointless to keep them aside from doing the equivalent of waving a loaded gun in an auditorium to ensure everyone inside is quiet.

[@philpottkentucky4802]

America nearly used nuclear weapons in Korea, Vietnam, and other places and you think there's no chance they'd use them again lol.

[@frank2107]

I love when tankies say "Well the west has got those things too". Like, yeah no shit, and that's a bad thing. The west also having authoritarianism doesn't make authoritarianism ok.

[@WhollyAppropriate]

Wow, sorta the exact point being made by second thought lol. Talk about unserious

[@Dovoline3]

I feel like using the "they already know that dog you pay taxes" line in a debate is the political equivalent of landing an instant kill in a fighting game

[@doovde2]

Tankies make it very easy for conservatives to do their "see I told you socialism is bad" gaslighting.

[@geraltsnake395]

They(tankies) are so effectively being right wing caricatures of “commies” that it begs to question whether they are controlled opposition or useful idiots to dissuade the masses from actual socialism.

[@sluttyMapleSyrup]

Big true.

[@jostnaleman3738]

But conservatives dont even hide the wrong things they do

[@kacperpiotrowski7239]

Do you want a Revolution or not?

[@ausername8699]

​@@kacperpiotrowski7239 Do you want basic civil liberties or not?

[@almosthelpless9374]

Authoritarianism is when mommy makes me eat vegetables with my nuggies

[@alphajackal6648]

I am not a vaush fan, but I agree with him about JT. As an anarchist, I absolutely loathe 'leftist unity' crap, because it always basically means, 'ignore history, ignore the logical consequences of my ideology, and ignore the knife behind my back so we can get along'.

[@LimeyLassen]

There is straight up a history of leftist communities being infiltrated by state actors, even on youtube. A lot of them were outed as being paid by Russia. Sometimes "infighting" is good and intelligent.

[@philpottkentucky4802]

You're an anarchist? LOL you believe in fairy tale land

[@alphajackal6648]

@@philpottkentucky4802 It's strange, everyone who calls anarchists utopian tend towards an attachment to systems with historically inhumane results. Are you any different?

[@philpottkentucky4802]

@@alphajackal6648 Anarchist preaches nihilism and the ultimate destruction of all human life. It is the worst possible system. Even totalitarian dictatorships are better than the death of humanity. Read Thomas Hobbes, for God's sake.

[@tormunnvii3317]

For anyone interested, the Anarchist channel called “Anark” has a really good debunk of this video which goes into the specifics of what Anarchist’s ACTUALLY mean, definitionally, by Authoritarianism. Beyond that, Anark covers historical examples of how Anarchist revolutions don’t have to resort to Authoritarianism in order to defend their revolutions.

[@echinate_music]

Thanks for keeping it so real all the time Vaush. It really helps noobies (like myself) understand the nuances of all of the differing views on leftie internet. When I left the politically apathetic enlightened centrist crowd I subbed to a lot of the big leftist channels including Hasan and Second Thought but have been slowly backing away and purging their content from my timelines as they say increasingly more weird tankie shit. Vaush, Majority Report, and Some More News feel like the only reputable strongholds of true progressive values left online. (Someone please tell me we’re all cool with these folks right?)

[@ajiththomas2465]

I mean yeah, everyone is cool with all those. I know that Majority Report has had some iffy foreign policy takes, especially in regards to Ukraine. Any MR video that has Matt Binder (someone who's knowledgeable in foreign policy) is a treat.

[@hughmungus2760]

people have to be mindful that the entire world consists of more than just the wealthy 1st world. Progressivism is when you've already resolved most of your economic developmental problems and are trying to fine tune social issues. Leftism in the developing world is "how do I bring my country out of poverty and not get it regime changed or invaded by one of the superpowers"

[@sluttyMapleSyrup]

There's also Suris (used to be Suris The Skeptic), Conure, Shark3oZero, Alec Gunter, Xanderhal's okay, Hunter Avellone's alright but very venomous to right-wingers and theistic apologists due to having once been an alt-righter, and afaik Actualjake's generally cool too.

[@TheAmericanAmerican]

I've been doing Left KZbin since 2015. Vaush is the best, MR is 90% great when they are not letting Matt Leck and Emma flirt with tankie talking points, and the Humanist Report is good too.

[@coopergates9680]

Leeja Miller? MoFreedomFoundation? AfroMarxist? Spooky Scary Socialist? Have you already checked a bunch of the others I could list?

[@AnArmoredMarch]

I started watching lefty content like maybe a month ago. I started with second thought, kinda veered off into his buddies, then realized hakim's content is basically just a series of book reccomendations, and then he posted this video. Kinda had no choice but yo start questioning shit. He fully pulled me over into lefty shit, and I'll always give him that, but holy shit the guy went aalllllll the way off the deep end and threatened to drag me off with him along the way

[@sassyviking6003]

He was a big part of my leftward movement as well. Back in the day he did some legitimately good videos, and I stand by that. It really is a shame that it turned out this is what he is now, and maybe always has been.

[@jurgnobs1308]

​@@sassyviking6003 he has always had rhe tactic of havi g his main channel with milktoast content (and well, if an extemist actively tries to appear as a milktoast, you might get decent content lol) and he has always advocated for fascism in different contexts. he has just started including it more into his main channel

[@cardboard2night]

Vaush literally predicted all of his arguments...

[@Jessie_Helms]

It's almost as if he's seen the video already 🤔

[@modernkiwi6447]

he seems like the exact kind of guy to use the term "dictatorship of the proletariat" unironically

[@hughmungus2760]

the Russian revolution and Mao's peasant rebellion were genuine leftist revolutions.

[@djordjetosic4553]

What's that supposed to mean? Are we now leftists that do not condone ruling class of workers?

[@nat9380]

that's a basic marxist term though, it doesn't actually mean a dictatorship which ought to be obvious but sadly a lot of people are really stupid

[@matheusc8330]

this is literally a term used by Marx and Engels. Your problem then is with Marxism

[@theyeening]

Is there anything genuinely wrong with using that term, though? Serious question btw.

[@CommanderLex]

1:00:14 "Dude the Republic HAD to be reorganized into the Galactic Empire to make our society more secure, how dare you call our great Emperor an authoritarian!"

[@sciencesociety2919]

"For a safe and secure society!"

[@forgottenredemption4970]

He actually helped me form my thoughts on socialism. He helped me form arguments and early did educate me on a lot of history and theory. However this video was the one that really broke that for me. I have never called anyone a tankie before... Until him. Because what he is defending and saying is absolutely horrifying. He's absolutely an stalinist. He's just an economically left fascist. And for me to say that when I used to watch every video he put out really saddens me. He's gone off the deep end.

[@Caelinus]

"He's just an economically left fascist." Which is incoherent as well. You cannot have economically left fascists, because leftist economics are incompatible with any form of authoritarianism. You can have social *services* in any system, but in an authoritarian one those services are at the whim of the rulers. If one does not like gay people? Too bad. No services for you. If you don't agree with the state religion? You are not allowed to earn a wage. The moment the political power becomes that concentrated they end up having the only true control over the economy, and if the workers do not own the means of production, then what we have is Capitalist Oligarchy, where the economic and political power are both concentrated in the same group. There is no way to prevent that and create an authoritarian regime that does not cede all its economic power to the dictator or dictators.

[@GabiGhita]

Same here, friend. Really disappointing, especially since his explicitly antifascist videos (recent too) about the antitrans panic and conservative media machine are actually really really good. But when he makes videos like this, I wonder why he even bothers to make the distinction between fascists and liberals in the first place since it's clear he considers them all the same (and the deprogram subreddit constantly equivocates between the two terms as well).

[@TheAmericanAmerican]

I watched him since the Cow days, but after doing the whole KZbin Political thing for 15 years now, I'm not surprised in the slightest that he gave into the grift. It happens all the time. Hopefully it won't happen with Vaush bit if it does, I'll move on to the next guy who's pre-grift honest.

[@GabiGhita]

@@TheAmericanAmerican Vaush seems one of the most principled creators in this space, to an almost compulsive extent (I recognize that because I have it too and it's kind of annoying because it takes a lot of effort and constant maintenance to ensure consistency within your own beliefs, ground everything in reality and moral axioms, etc.), so I'm not too worried. Of course, it's foolish to not leave room for the possibility, I'm just saying it's unlikely at the moment.

[@TheAmericanAmerican]

@@GabiGhita that's why I'm here ;) After 15 years of watching the talking heads on KZbin, Vaush seems genuinely honest. Hope it lasts a LONG time 🤞🤞

[@theladchad]

It's basically your authoritarianism is bad mine is good

[@NewPipeFTW]

Not really..

[@wilywonky]

I've been scratching my head for a few days now as to why 2nd Thought would exclusively mention countries he considers socialist, and what Vaush said made it click for me. He obviously LIKES all those countries he listed so the last thing he wants is for his viewers to associate big daddy USSR with the Nazis (a group of people even he hates). He wants to soften his viewers' perception of tankie states by understating the weight of authoritarianism ("oh, what does it really mean, the US puts a lot of people in prison so I guess there is barely any difference between it and North Korea") but he needs to do it selectively because he still wants authoritarianism to remain bad when it's his enemies doing it.

[@andogonzalez]

Good job, brother. We cant allow these authoritarianism apologists to get away with it

[@manolgeorgiev9664]

Good luck doing your commi revolution trough democracy, mate! By the time you're done our species would be on the verge of extinction xD

[@UmQasaann]

​@@manolgeorgiev9664I'm a native american and I hope the North America becomes like the USSR and Maoist China in the future. Free Turtle Island 🚩☭

[@JorgeRamirez-lg9nn]

Vaush is just a lib; does he expect the ruling capitalist class to give up power bc we say please?

[@simoneidson21]

@@manolgeorgiev9664Vaush and his fans aren’t demsocs for the most part

[@sluttyMapleSyrup]

​@@UmQasaann You realize you'd probably be culled alongside us queers if that happened, right..?

[@42percenthealth]

"Authoritarianism... is when ANYONE does stuff!"

[@philpottkentucky4802]

That's how anarchists like this Vaush moron define it.

[@EastCoastGamer13]

“The US surveillance system is cruel and unjustified. Also we need strong surveillance to combat terrorism”. - Second Thought, a serious political actor that we should listen to

[@kawaiipotato9797]

The fact I had to watch this second thought video again to give vaush a view the strongest of soldiers get the harshest battles 😔😔😔

[@vayate1234]

Thank you for your service.

[@miiiwu1999]

we out here struggling comrade 07

[@clayfoster8234]

Maybe you have to be over a certain age to relate, but as a 49 yr old I can say with absolute conviction that the East German Stasi were FUCKING TERRIFYING.

[@mgg7756]

I'm pretty sure nazis were worse, so I find it hard to care

[@asgreen139]

​@@mgg7756 by the same logic, you must find it hard to care about America's wrongs relative to the Stasi lol

[@mgg7756]

@@asgreen139 do you actually believe America is more "benign" than former East Germany? What a dunce.

[@JohnDoe-jp4em]

@@mgg7756 In terms of fcked up practices by the state and how widespread they are? Absolutely. The US does more stuff in total, but that's because they are much larger and powerful. If the US would be like East Germany, the US would be MUCH worse to live in. Videos like this criticizing the US wouldn't even exist, because the person trying to make them would be liable to be arrested and "interrogated" (tortured).

[@MrHaganenoEdward]

I have a Chinese friend with whom I chat almost daily. I remember that whenever we used something other than WeChat, the communication was more complicated because she had to use VPN and I remember that once when we talked a bit about Xinjiang and Uyghur she had to put “-“ between letter in some words because otherwise the message wouldn’t be sent…

[@arsenalofdemocracy9985]

Guantanamo had like total of 800 prisoners in 20 years，and in hometown（a small uyghur majoriey town called yarkant），20000 innocent people get dragged into concentration camps and disapeard in one year（2019），like wtf

[@Colleywoodstudios]

when people like ST are the "vanguards" calling me a soc dem evil i cant help but realize im on the RIGHT side.

[@coldsnap999]

socdems enabled Hitler

[@thecatinthefedora1201]

Second Thought was one of the first people to expose me to socialism, and having a semi-nuanced view on the subject (even if I still opposed socialism at the time) absolutely made me more receptive to Vaush's ideas in his debate with Whatifalthist. I will always at least appreciate that he did that much for me. Sucks that he's gone all tankie

[@Mikidy]

Nice reflection, and nice cat :D

[@SeruraRenge11]

I feel like people are too hard on Whatifalthist. Yeah he's nutty but at the same time, you gotta remember that Rudyard is like 22. Everyone thought they were the smartest dude in the world with insightful shit to say at 22, he just has a YT channel while YT was barely a thing when I was that age. That being said, Cody from AlternateHistoryHub is way better.

[@thecatinthefedora1201]

that may be the case but he still set my political development back by like a year or two @@SeruraRenge11

[@flonp9694]

​@@SeruraRenge11 22 is plenty old enough to know better than parroting white supremac dog whistles in your tweets. "Leftists want to commit cultural suicide. Why do they have to drag the rest of us along with them? I want my nation, ethnicity future kids and more to survive. It’s so narcissistic of them to kill off their entire cultures to assuage their guilt and savior complex. Also, when did cultural suicide become a virtue? They are betraying all their ancestors and descendants." "The meme belies a fundamental point. Our society supports Darwinism in abstract however completely rejects it in fact by saying the oppressed are always good and the powerful bad. That doesn’t add up darwinistically" - posted with a meme aiming to portray the "irony" between viewing a lion eating its prey as normal natural selection and viewing colonial murder of indigenous people as unacceptable. "I just wanted to be happy, get married, write some books and move to by a lake in rural Pa. Then the Left told me they wanted to destroy my entire civilization and race…." "I legit love the Jews but if you look at the philosophers pushing atheist/materialist and postmodern/cultural relativism it’s all Jews. Jared Diamond, Stephen Pinker, Sigmund Freud, Marx, Boaz, Marcuse, majority of Frankfurt school, Yuval Noah Harari, Sam Harris etc…"

[@alvaroxex]

Vaush is just an imperialist pathetic liberal.

[@thomasgellhaus306]

Vaush, I always enjoy your discussions and critiques. Around the 33-34 minute mark, when 2nd thought talks about surveillance, he totally neglects to mention that Chinese-Americans ARE one of the groups that are afraid to talk openly - NOT about things in the US, but ABOUT THE PROBLEMS IN CHINA!!!

[@gustavchambert7072]

I feel it's kind of important to point out, because it often gets left out, even by very serious socialists like my man vaush (that's not so much a criticism, just an observation), that a "stateless society" isn't just some formless blob of disorganised people living in some sort of utopian harmony, which I feel is the common association. Let's be clear: there would ABSOLUTELY be SOME form of organised political structures structuring and "governing" society. It's just that they would be radically different in both structure, purpose and methods to anything most people today would recognise, which is why "governing" is in airquotes,

[@poopscoop9016]

Hard agree more folks need to see this

[@fghsgh]

where can i learn more about this?

[@gustavchambert7072]

@@fghsgh that's actually a very good question. Off the top of my head, I don't have a great answer. I don't have a book or video to recommend on the topic of alternative social systems for example. The thing is, I don't think we really know what it would look like, as it would be the result of an historically unprecedented (so far, at least) level of democratic organisation. But there are cases out there one can thrn to for inspiration. The Zapatistas in Mexico, for example. A lot of inspiration can also be found in historical, anthropological and sociological writings on indigenous peoples, their contemporary political struggles and so on. And then there are contemporary examples of workers co-ops in the global north. Like I said, these are all examples that can serve as inspiration, but if anyone has actually compiled all of that into some more comprehensive social theory of how to organise a post-state society I am not aware of it. But it DEFINITELY both deserves and needs more discussion in socialist circles.

[@sluttyMapleSyrup]

That's a great point, and I think is similar to what I hear communists like Suris say; "Communism, as-in a moneyless, stateless, classless society, is technically unatainable but serves as an ideal for us to constantly strive to get as close as we can to achieving" and while I don't consider myself a communist or socialist, I support that interpretation of "real" communist advocacy.

[@gustavchambert7072]

@@sluttyMapleSyrup to be clear: I don't think a fully stateless, fully moneyless society is AT ALL unattainable. It's just that it's not some end-of-history utopia where everything just works, everyone has everything they need automatically and there are no conflicts ever. It will be a real society, and like any society it will need institutions and structures to function and resolve disputes and systems of exchange to distribute resources. It's just that those systems, structures and institutions will be very different from what we usually think think about today.

[@JBlazingit]

You mean to tell me that Second Thought who just got kick from Nebula for blatant support of the terrorism has other bad takes? I am shocked.

[@voiceofreason467]

What terrorist action did he support?

[@roachofdoom1234]

@@voiceofreason467supported Hamas killing Israeli civilians by referrring to Israelis as settlers and not civilians. This is in fact terrorist apologia and bad

[@JBlazingit]

@@voiceofreason467 the Whole of everything done on October 7th.

[@voiceofreason467]

@@roachofdoom1234 Ah, didn't know he said all of that. Thanks.

[@BlueTyphoon2017]

@@voiceofreason467the killing of people at a party on October 7nth I believe. He seems to not be able to tell the difference between an unarmed non combatant, like a civilian, and an armed military personal like say, the IDF.

[@JamieElli]

You know how some people will say that socialism is when the government does a thing. Seemingly he believes it's authoritarianism when the government does a thing.

[@philpottkentucky4802]

To anarchists, that is true.

[@spaceelfdimp4852]

Its depressing because I got into socialism from second thought

[@AychSkwaird]

Not depressing at all. I got into socialism by watching Hasan, who has grown more red-fasc much like Second Thought. I think it's an example of maturity for being able to recognize when somebody who makes content you enjoy says some dogshit things. Be proud of yourself.

[@materialdialectics]

It makes me sad Yugopnik fell in with this crowd, I always found his videos had a particular uplifting vibe to them that always left me feeling hopeful even if the subject matter was incredibly depressing. Ah well, the trend of people on the left falling victim to deeply internalized elements of currently existing systems and/or elements of feudal societies--embellished by metaphysically implanting the 'spirit' of the working class onto it as opposed to any meaningful mechanism to ensure representation of their will--all out of a lack of emancipatory imagination continues.

[@BlueTyphoon2017]

Apparently Vaush has said that he eventually needs to talk to Yugopnik. I hope it happens because maybe he doesn’t agree with his co hosts as much as the other two? I mean he seems more knowledgeable about how power structures, propaganda and dictatorships work so, idk, maybe he’d be cool to have on? I just hope it doesn’t turn into another Hakim situation where he just sits there and just meekly agrees with everything Vaush says and then calls Vaush an idiot right after talking with him.

[@materialdialectics]

@@BlueTyphoon2017We must save him! But yeah like I've never really gotten a tankie vibe from his content.

[@alexanderfloyd5099]

If you listen to their podcast you’ll realize all three of these guys are waaaaay more authoritarian than their KZbin personas.

[@maynardwayward12]

The "authoritarianism isn't real" rhetoric is so out-there that I doubt it has any legs, certainly not with normies. I think this is just meant to piss off socialists. I mean, historically speaking, that's what tankies do.

[@LimeyLassen]

It's such a moon logic argument that I wouldn't be surprised if he was taking money from a foreign government.

[@theunexaminedlife2170]

Tankies don't understand socialism? Wow what a surprise /S

[@manolgeorgiev9664]

Yet Vaush, the Wikipedia Warrior, is an expert on socialism.

[@all_thescience]

@@manolgeorgiev9664 That's more of an own on tankies than anything else, because at least Vaush doesn't think socialism is when you go fascist with a red paint job

[@jayemm5106]

@@manolgeorgiev9664 You realize Wikipedia is one of the most reliable sources of accurate information in human history right? The reason your teachers told you not to cite wikipedia as a source was not because it is unreliable, but because it was not the primary origination point of the information provided. They were teaching you to find the primary sources for yourself instead of being lazy, which Wikipedia provides at the end of every article.

[@ArDeeMee]

I noticed the BIG /s. Nice touch.

[@manolgeorgiev9664]

​@@jayemm5106 I realize that reading Wikipedia doesn't make you an expert on a subject. But libtards like Vaush are definitely the type to act like experts after reading 5 minutes of Wikipedia.

[@zhuljens]

Here in Latvia, we didn't see much difference between Nazi and Soviet occupation. Nazis killed and relocated mostly jews and roma, while Soviets killed and relocated everyone.

[@O-pm8bb]

Because the Soviet union (specially Stalin) did not operate on Marxist principles and that's what people don't seem to understand, they were just another face of authoritarianism and fascism

[@tomgu2285]

Lmao cope fascist

[@manolgeorgiev9664]

basically...

[@djordjetosic4553]

Brother, your country is the Baltics neo-nazi epicenter. For the love of god, you would be the Canadian speaker that praised the SS officer because he fought against the commies. Try and don't be the centrist in the "who was worse in WW2" conversation

[@georgecostanza712]

​@@tomgu2285Mentallly ill Tankie detected.

[@ahuman7199]

Nazism is the most synonymous word you can get when describing Authoritarianism. 99% of the time when people call something "Nazism" nowdays. They're just saying authoritarian/totalitarian.

[@bahdas_jahfada6286]

i watched the second thought video first and the whole time i was trying to figure out why he wasnt mentioning nazism

[@JP-fb8ni]

What's the relevance of your inquiry?

[@bahdas_jahfada6286]

@@JP-fb8ni wdym

[@JP-fb8ni]

@@bahdas_jahfada6286 What do you think the link is between Second Thought and the Nazis?

[@bahdas_jahfada6286]

@@JP-fb8ni not sure exactly

[@JP-fb8ni]

@@bahdas_jahfada6286 Simple answer, there isn't any link. However, I still don't see the relevance of your opening statement.

[@alberteinstein9285]

If everything the nazis did were the same, but (i) they used the hammer and sickle instead of the swastika on their flag, and (ii) they were defeated by France and Great Britain in 1940 (thus not being able to attack the Soviet Union), tankies would simp for them today.

[@tomgu2285]

Lmao are you insane?

[@sypherthe297th2]

Its amusing how accurate that is and yet you already seem to have whiners kvetching about it. So lets discuss this. On economics, the USSR did do a better job leveling economic outcomes. . . for most people. Most citizens lived grey, stark lives. NGermany continued to have a stratified economy but most people did better overall. . . due to the expropriation of Jewish property. But it doesn't stop there. Both the USSR and NGermany funneled wealth to the top and ensconced an aristocratic class who lived unlike the masses. This was completely unjustified if the USSR was what it pretended to be. Societally, both states had a master race and would regularly ethnically cleanse/genocide other groups to provide "living space" for the master race. In the USSR, this was the Russians while in Germany this was a romanticization of the German people as Aryans. This is why there are massive Russian populations spread throughout Europe today causing issues. Both countries had their own Jewish purges but the USSR's was just smaller in scope at various times over several decades. Both governments were dictatorships that purged dissenters, had massive police states, killed ethnic minorities, engaged in militarism, etc. That's enough for now. I await the screamers giving one or two line answers amounting to "nuh uh."