AAA Studios Sued for Addictive Games | Cold Take

From the team behind The Escapist, we're excited to introduce you to our new employee-owned and fully independent outlet, Second Wind.
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Sources
Official Filed Complaint
insider-gaming.com/wp-content...
Patent Search
ppubs.uspto.gov/pubwebapp/sta...
“Children Spend the Most”
www.digitalinformationworld.c...
UK’s 11 Industry Principles
ukie.org.uk/loot-boxes
Hearthstone’s Officially Published Card Pack Drop Rates
us.battle.net/support/en/arti...
How does Zynga Hunt for Whales?
www.gamesindustry.biz/how-doe...
Kabam Inc.
www.linkedin.com/company/kaba...
“The Beneficial or Harmful Effects of Computer Game Stress on Cognitive Functions of Players”
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/arti...
Epic Games Settlement
www.ftc.gov/enforcement/refun...
Obesity Rates
worldpopulationreview.com/cou...
Chapters
0:00 - 2:02 Intro
2:02 - 2:57 Lawsuits 101
2:57 - 4:36 Plaintiff
4:36 - 5:32 Defendants
5:32 - 8:57 “The Rise of Video Games”
8:57 - 10:18 Video Games vs Casinos
10:18 - 16:37 “Predatory Monetization”
16:37 - 21:56 Patents
22:03 - 23:10 Whales
23:10 - 26:19 Effects of Video Games
26:19 - 39:14 Opinion Time

[@SecondWindGroup]

Second Wind is fully independent, employee-owned. and fan-funded. If you enjoyed the video, consider supporting us over on Patreon! www.patreon.com/SecondWindGroup

[@SimuLord]

I'd been on the fence about this, but seeing Yahtzee and Frost let off the leash? You've earned my 10 bucks a month. Let the record show it was this video that did it, if you track that sort of thing internally.

[@rebeccachambers4701]

so some games like warframe use premium currency thats tradeabel for items, so basiclaly games like it and roblox have kids working like full time jobs to afford the game by trading items with adults who have jobs and not time to play . i am a disabled loser veteran so i trade with out players for premium currency but i cant afford realgames anyway.

[@rocko7711]

❤

[@rocko7711]

Cute dog

[@georgemeyers7172]

Is Cold Take usually this long?

[@fakade2987]

When multiple studios have hired former child psychologists to mange their monetization for games the parent has a pretty good point.

[@metazoxan2]

Still this is really more a sign parents need to start raising their own children again and not leaving it to social media and the internet to do it for them. No matter how addictive a game is, if you properly manage your child then you can handle it. Especially over spending, if your 13 year old child is over spending on gamming then you simply failed to even do BASIC parenting. There is no reason a child should be able to spend anything without parent approval unless granted that privilege out of trust ... which obviously should not be given if they overspend like that. That's not to say game companies aren't targeting children or making games addictive ... because they absolutely are. But if you have a massive list of all the "harm" those games did to your kid ... maybe take a look at what's wrong with your own parenting.

[@anna-flora999]

@@metazoxan2 it's not like fortnight comes with a massive disclaimer saying "this product is specifically designed to induce gambling addiction in children" now is it. There should be room for the reasonable expectation that a game rated T by the esrb is safe to play for children 13 and up, otherwise what's the point of the rating.

[@fartface8918]

@@metazoxan2 why must a victim be perfect to have the problem be a danger, the industry is turbo ass and making problems on purpose why do we care if this mother or child is a good person

[@Kyle496]

​@@metazoxan2 Oh yes, don't say the product should be better & safer, just let people keep sucking down poison. Nothing wrong with letting casinos, crack dealers, and anything else highly addictive pop-up all over the place, nothing wrong with that at all. /s Honestly this goes beyond kids imo, this is exactly why we have bans on many addictive substances around the world. When it comes to things that cause addiction there should always be limitations.

[@adderous]

At the same time, there are lots of things like this that are restricted for children because of a capacity to harm. Fireworks, drugs and alcohol, regular gambling. You would also have a point saying what you just did about all of those, but that doesn't mean it's wrong to restrict them. The fact that we don't allow a child to buy a violent game, but skinner box freemium games like candy crush or actual slot machines like gacha games are accepted is absurd.

[@SteamedToast]

It's been disheartening to have grown up fighting against the argument that games were harmful to children only for the industry to win and immediately use all their analysis to figure out how close they could get to the line before crossing it.

[@Praisethesunson]

They went past the line years ago. At this point it's getting a line and forcing companies behind it.

[@demon794]

The tough part, atleast to me, is that what was argued about in relation to games before was how "violent" they make gamers. Which usually boiled down to people's subjective beliefs about what someone should or should not be exposed to. It was a battle worth fighting against because many people wanted games censored purely for having controversial gameplay/themes (i.e. Mass Effect & sex, gta & violence, etc.). Which to me was wrong because were you to censor those ideas it would lessen the voice that those artistic mediums had. To me though, this argument is different and is one that should have been approached instead. Because now there genuinely is a monetary and emotional detriment attached. Companies want to use all the info they can to suck money out of people (which, though I hate it, makes sense because that is how they choose to thrive). So while people were so busy arguing about "violent video games", companies found ways to skirt around it and instead spend the valuable time creating more tempting scenarios to spend money. I don't quite know what my exact point is anymore, but basically it boils down to an agreeance that a lot of time was wasted discussing superficial arguments (violent video games) instead of thinking on how predatory the money making process can be.

[@demon794]

(I also say all this because I remember arguing with so many people about why "violent" video games aren't bad and wish that time would have been spent on discussing this instead)

[@ansleyp001]

Worst part was I finally figured out that when adults are making games for kids they're doing it for the adults, either that means the game is to be played by adults or more harmfully played by kids to enrich the adults. Growing old sucks.

[@tokilladaemon]

Thing is, this isnt about violence. Its about using psychological tricks to compel kids to keep coming back. Trouble is, its virtually impossible to legislate those away, since even if a judge got really specific companies could just shift to a different bag of tricks and feign ignorance

[@CoiledasDevilry]

Man, the yin/yang vibes of Frost and Yahtzee's respective styles are so good to have in the same independent channel. Every new Frost video is a highlight

[@Kletian999]

Indeed. The awesome juxtaposition of speed and slowness

[@99goat99]

I'm 54 years old. I can tell you, having played video games throughout their long history, I noticed that starting around 2011, things began to change and it felt sinister to me. Video game developers had begun to hire psychologists to maximize dopamine releases in the brain, then to regulate it. By that I mean the developers of these games want players to stick around, play longer, and stay loyal to THEIR game. Of course, this is obvious. To accomplish this, they literally tried as hard as they could to make the game addictive. This is old news. My own addiction was to Destiny and Destiny 2. I'm glad they may now have to answer for the damage they did to people in the name of profits.

[@baneblade__]

I used to play destiny and destiny 2 religiously and then I quit d2 when they started sunsetting items. When I tried to get back into the game a year later I couldn't do it, the game demands so much time from you and having not played in such a long time I wasn't stuck in the dopamine loop anymore I suddenly realized just how addicted I used to be to the destiny

[@iller3]

mid 40's here but yeah I noticed the exact same thing, and I was playing the MMORPG's where a lot of this stuff started. Even in those games, those initial methods weren't nearly as "sinister" as they've become in the past decade.

[@Jolsiphur]

These kinds of things happened a long time before 2011. As long as online games have existed there have been methods used to keep people playing them. Keeping players engaged keeps the money rolling in. Look at World of Warcraft, which launched originally in 2004. Even back then the game was compred very heavily to the works of psychologists like B.F. Skinner and his "Skinner Box" concept. The game devs knew how to specifically dole out achievements to keep you engaged, because being engaged in the game kept you paying a monthly subscription, the moment you became bored and didn't want to play anymore meant that Blizzard would no longer be able to rake in your specific $15 per month. These practices have definitely gotten worse over the years with the invention of Battle Passes that hammer in the FOMO, which not only keeps you engaged and playing, but encourages you to continue to spend this money.

[@aelechko]

@@iller3 39 here checking in. I played WoW for a couple of years between burning crusade and into cataclysm. It was roughly when you could pay to level your character and buy mounts with real money that I opted out. I've been sucked back in to other games like Smite that do similar shit. I gave up drinking and smoking weed three months ago and gave up Smite for good at the same time. Realized neither were making me happy or satisfied they were both just going through the motions. And one often led to the other. The last three months without any addictions have been so good. I wish I would have figured it out a decade ago. These games aren't designed to serve you they're designed to provide a service to you and make money. They aren't much different from drugs and alcohol.

[@battlericky17]

I dont think they will. The argument the parents are going to make falls apart at the part where they give their 13 year old access to their credit card. Its that simple.

[@jdhilario]

Note that whales aren’t necessarily richer than other players. Many of them are just regular people with gambling addictions, and calling them whales can turn them faceless.

[@Ten_Thousand_Locusts]

Take DSP for example. Although he's probably richer than a lot of people anyway.

[@Ragetiger1]

For me, when I hear the term "whale" i'm thinking only that the person has the money to spend on such a thing or has some level of "loyalty" to either product or supplier.

[@bcd32dok36]

@@Ten_Thousand_LocustsI’m amazed that he is rich considering what he is well known for. How does someone like him get as much money despite being unattractive and terrible at his job? It’s makes no sense.

[@person.probably]

Yeah, as with any addiction you end up sacrificing everything else in order to spend money on it. It's not that they have more money, it's that they're willing to give up all other expenses.

[@Nova225]

Throwing my hat into this comment, I had a clan leader in that Star Trek mobile game. Dude would spend $100 with blinking an eye, and then 10 minutes later complain about how he was about to be evicted from his apartment.

[@geargraphic2620]

Me expecting an 8 minute Cold Take, only to get a 40 MINUTE LONG ONE. Good lord Frost, keep it up but get some rest.

[@TheJovian16]

Me: This is my second Cold Take video ever, are they not usually 40 minutes long?

[@geargraphic2620]

@@TheJovian16 Usually it was like 8 to 15 minutes during the Escapist Era, small enough to break down what you needed to hear but this one is just great for my long hobby stretches.

[@neutraltoxic]

No, and I hope This Is The New Normal

[@amanofnoreputation2164]

Maybe the cold takes are being empowered by the harsh winter weather.

[@Hilliam66]

@@amanofnoreputation2164 I love the idea that the length of cold take segments is affected by seasonal weather changes XD Imagine getting a 1 minute cold take on July 1st.

[@DodgeThisBam]

Full disclosure: I had not watched a single episode of Cold Take until the creation of second wind. Your first episode was a brilliant way to explain WHY and HOW Second Wind came to be. I particularly liked your “Going independent is just a roundabout way of firing your boss.” Such a cathartic line in these times. But this? This was BRILLIANT. Thank you for not only going over the situation from multiple angles but also for going over your own views and why you feel that way. It’s awfully refreshing in a media landscape covered in “X thing is bad so hate it as hard as possible.” I look forward to your next work. Thank you.

[@eileenheath1968]

Same, I never watched it until the creation of Second Wind. After the first one - I became a patreon supporter. I'd like to think he has more freedom to explore thoroughly these topics as well as covering subjects that might make a gaming review group get seat-squirmy about in that "bite the hand that feeds you early access" loop.

[@doobzsalam1847]

Cold take always seemed to me like a more serious version of “let’s all talk about an industry that never learns anything teeheehee”

[@alexanderwizardjar9540]

Welcome to the fan-club, this series is the best!

[@seantheimp]

@@doobzsalam1847 Cold Take is the Jimquisition as read by the Lone Ranger instead of ICP. It's a flavor.

[@kevjp5987]

These companies have clearly been manipulative and predatory but I don't see how one family can be successful in trying to sue 5 massive companies at the same time. Law makers are too slow, unaware and easily distracted by a big bag of money.

[@Hundeputzmunter]

I suspect there'll probably be a settlement with an NDA so nobody can ever know the details

[@handson4580]

as stated this is the first of its kind and i admire the "David vs goliath" showdown being present however we all know it wont go down like in the bible...real life doesn't have miracles

[@LuizAlexPhoenix]

It seems like a desperate volley, if anything sticks then it's worth it for the family. If they tried to sue a single company, it might preclude them from trying to sue the others. Plus, judges and prosecutors are people too and they often fall to simple tricks or fallacies, intentionally or not. So, lawyers will throw as many arguments as possible, so that the judge and prosecutors can go "we don't fully agree with you, because of so and so, but we agree on these points due to this and that". In my experiences, you could be suing your neighbour or relative. If they have any sort of standing and money over you, it becomes a self fullfiling prophecy of negation. Or simply a tautology, circular reasoning of "they are rich and powerful, no one has ever managed to convict them or even get them indicted. So any attempts at doing are clearly not worth considering." It msans that Golliath grows exponentially. He gets a pass for his clean records, while his records remain clean because of all those passes.

[@carolbaker2773]

I honestly feel for some of these parents because they might literally not know better. My sister and her husband for example did not grow up playing games and don’t really understand them now. Their kids could easily fall prey to an addiction because the last games they played were on the N64. And the people who keep saying that they don’t understand how they are not keeping track of finances must not understand the word “micro transactions”. They are small charges that are spread out over a month. So yes spending $350 a month on a game sound ludicrous but $5 isn’t so bad. Depending on how the charge is labeled you might not notice it until it’s very late. Unless you keep an excel spreadsheet that breaks down all charges into categories, it might fly under the radar. The other medical stuff might be explained away at the time by going through puberty and suffering school refusal anxiety attacks. I’m not a parent but I would imaging that I would institutionalize my kid if they were having rage episodes with game withdraw. It like with school shooters, I don’t think it’s 100% the parents fault and they might have done everything “right”.

[@greedygreen8269]

There are a lot of families in the world and companies reserves of money while significant are not endless. If enough people start raising issues with this they will leave noticeable enough dent that companies might start changing their tactics

[@petrab.7780]

There’s a class action lawsuit in Quebec (and another Canadian-wide, based in BC) against Epic alleging most of the same things, but again with all of the same pitfalls: they try to say Fortnite is underhandedly addictive and targets children (which it is, and it does) but go out of their way to blame their children’s excessive spending and hours spent on games on the gaming industry at large, thus muddling the argument. They try to cast too wide a net to rid themselves of all blame, and meanwhile these companies are free to do as they please. And, I’m sorry-from someone who has ADHD: games do not cause ADHD. They may exacerbate its symptoms, but you are the only one harming your child by excessively pathologising an incredibly common learning disorder. Learn about your own kid before you run your mouth in court, goddamn.

[@skeetsmcgrew3282]

The problem is that it's not really a lawsuit anymore if you don't claim damages. Laws exist to regulate industries, lawsuits exist to enforce those that exist. These people can't just make generalized claims about an industry. They need to show it hurt them illegally. They will fail, for sure. Lawmakers need to be involved, not shitty parents with fat idiot children

[@kevinbissinger]

"I can't say no to my kid, and it's all your fault!"

[@kevinbissinger]

​​@@markhackett2302chargebacks are a thing. Or don't save your credit card if you're buying something. Or use one of the many many temporary credit card programs you can freeze or set a dollar limit on that can NOT be superceded without logging into the master account

[@MsKornkitty]

I was questioning the part about games 'causing' ADHD. Neurodivergent people are more at risk of predatory practices because of impulse control issues and susceptibility to manipulation, but gaming doesn't cause those problems. We need sensible protections, but to get them we also need to be honest about how much the companies are actually culpable for.

[@adamisme5939]

I also have ADHD, and I sympathize with the frustration. You cannot contract ADHD. That is simply not how it works. And the same for dyslexia. If one is concerned about their child's mental state, they can at least search up what a mental disorder is and how it works before citing it as proof in a court case.

[@Azec72]

Frost wasn't kidding about this being a monster of a Cold Take

[@lukerabon7925]

These companies do engage in harmful practices that exploit vulnerable people for money. That said, that's not how ADHD and Dyslexia work

[@potatoforged]

Yesss I'm mad I had to scroll so far to find this take. Psychological manipulation is bad, and some games definitely prey on and/or exacerbate ADHD behaviors, which could be considered discrimination, but they don't CAUSE ADHD.

[@_Zeruca]

Yup this is purely a case of bad parenting. If they just took away the game or didn’t keep funneling him money then all these problems wouldn’t have existed. What happened to the days when kids had to do chores to earn an allowance for maybe 1 game every few months?

[@doobzsalam1847]

Exactly! There is a conversation to be had here. It’s just the people who always start them wish to use the problem as a scapegoat so we ignore them.

[@LSDnSideBurns]

‘Exacerbating’ would def have been a much better legal claim than ‘causing’. Awareness and understanding of ADHD and Dyslexia not only improves lives, it can literally help earn you cash payouts. Huh.

[@DisgruntledPeasant]

@@_Zeruca it can be both bad parenting AND predatory design. If a child is knowingly allowed to purchase drugs that harm them, yes it's bad parenting but we still hold the dealer accountable too.

[@1987Onslaught]

Thanks for the deep coverage. I have a 14 yr old gamer son and I am a gamer myself. Education in this is powerful. I had to tell him about FOMO (especially for Valorant). I had to show him how much thing would cost. I use paid content as a reward. You do your chores, you contribute to the family, you can get the shiny thing you want. If you act up, be disrespectful and any of the like, then you get banned. Companies will try to make money. And in some degrees they need the money to pay their employees to keep the game updating. They should be transparent but parents are responsible too

[@Texelion3Dprints]

Really too bad that kids don't use the same logic as adults, all they understand is a punishment/rewards system. I tried to explain all that stuff to my 9yo nephew but he doesn't have the logic or experience to understand. He doesn't see what's bad in this system, he doesn't know the value of things, and it's normal at his age.

[@ashedarke]

Now this is a work of passion. When your normal videos are 10 mins long on average, making something 4 times the length isn't because you'll think you'll get 4 times the money. Respect for Frost has gone up.

[@adamk.7177]

This is better than when they were at The Escapist lol

[@styfen]

Frost, thank you for mentioning "completionism". Too many people ignore just how strong a psychological hook that is on people. It's satisfying to have a 'complete collection' we know that as a given, but it traps people into buying more and more. Which is especially insidious with electronic products due to the volume that they can be deployed at and ephemeral nature of them. Not only can they catch players into wanting one of everything, but they can also add 'higher quality' versions of things to create a whole new level of collectability. It's not enough to have all the characters, now you need all the fashion skins for the characters, oh and their cool emotes, and whatever other pieces of chrome are layered on top. Also people if you're reading this, after finishing this video go watch People Make Games and their exposes on Roblox and Counterstrike Skins. Horrific stuff that is creating permanently damaged adults out of unsuspecting children.

[@skeletor8951]

Completionism can be a surprisingly insidious driver for gaming compulsion. There was a gacha game I played once that in hindsight, I was probably addicted to. I never spent a dollar, but I was completionist- every limited event character or item that popped up, I got it. I would be idly tapping my way through levels during classes, hidden during work, on the bus, walking home. Eventually they had an event that I procrastinated on until 2 days before the end and despite playing, both as a focus and as a secondary thing, for almost two days over a weekend with only a handful of hours of sleep I wasn't able to finish it, barely even half. I missed a time limited event character and... That was it. It hit me all at once how little I suddenly cared now that I had lost that completionist status, and that I had physically abused my body with lack of sleep and still failed anyway. Hindsight also made it clear how much my college studies had suffered sinc I wasn't paying full attention or taking proper notes in lectures. Thought maybe I was just burned out but a couple weeks later I cared so little I didn't even bother grinding the game while on a bus trip out of state, and that was when I uninstalled it and didn't touch another mobile game for about 4 years.

[@frederf3227]

I tell people that "unfogging" every corner of the map is: 1. unhealthy, 2. compulsive, 3. makes you have a worse experience. Completionism is a weird gamer habit as it will take your time, make you miserable, and give you a worse satisfaction at the end and yet we do it anyway. I tell them it's like a candle in a dark room. The candle flame is dim and you have to imagine what lurks just beyond its light. The walls can be 10 feet away or a light year, there's mystery left. Your imagination is 1000% better than actually seeing the whole world in broad daylight, flaws, limits and all. Completionism, every side quest, every sold common spear, every corner of the map touched is flicking on the light switch at the haunted house. It will spoil your illusion that the world is beyond the limits of the game. Everyone I've convinced, including myself, to stop compulsively doing everything, unfogging every inch, minmaxing every shop, save scumming every setback has found games to be more enjoyable.

[@Agilaz89]

This seems like a case of 'worthy cause, presented poorly and doomed to fail because of it', and Frost does point out a lot of the issues with the case. Thanks for the long episode, and this might just be me, but I'd gladly take the occasional extra long cold take even if you need an extra week to make it. Staying tuned o7

[@KryyssTV]

A worthy cause? This is a classic case of bad parents not taking responsibility for their own children. $350 a month on MTX and DLC? If this kid isn't attending school and spends 12-14hrs a day gaming he sure as heck isn't holding down a part-time job to earn that cash himself. So who do you think is giving him that money? As for weighing 300lbs. That doesn't happen overnight. That is years of neglect or an unaddressed medical issue. In either case, the parents had control. Got a problem with over-eatting in the house? Stop making junk food so available. While there may be legitimate points raised here, none of them are the cause for the neglect and abuse this child has suffered at the hands of two irresponsible adults who don't want to admit their own mistakes or take the actions nessersary to get their house in order.

[@Agilaz89]

@@KryyssTV let me clarify a bit, before more people turn my one sentence into a small essay of assumptions; fighting against micro transactions as a business model is a worthy cause, but this particular case is a bad example to use, and will fail in court because of the issues mentioned. See my comment in context of the video and all the issues Frost highlighted.

[@KryyssTV]

@@Agilaz89 There's nothing wrong with MTX as long as they're worthwhile additions for their price tag. But that applies to all products to be fair. There was a time when gamers were excited to see "map packs" and expansions for their favourite games. But in the era of F2P there's an atmosphere of undeserved entitlement around.

[@Agilaz89]

@@KryyssTV nah, in my opinion there isn't a single game ever made that has been made better by micro transactions. I don't count full expansion packs, as those aren't 'micro'. Paid map packs only ever served to split the player base (which is why practically no games do that anymore). Publishers now use mtx as an excuse to take content out of a game and sell it back for more money.

[@KryyssTV]

@@Agilaz89 Skylanders is the 11th biggest console franchise to ever exist and generated over $3bn in sales over only four years, it's fondly remembered and many fans want to see the franchise return. Yet it's whole gameplay and existence was rooted in MTX so clearly you're opinion about MTXs is either ill-informed or part of a very small minority.

[@CBSmith-js9yl]

The line about the mom being physically afraid of their 13 yr old kid reminds me of a former partner of mine who is a therapist for kids. She also had a 13 yr old gaming addict. 13 but 6ft weighing 300lbs who had numerous times physically assaulted his mom (whom was smaller than him by that point) for taking away the games. As a parent with a child like that. What do you do? Call the cops? On your own kid? It sounds easy but that is a line to cross for some (I hope many) parents

[@firetarrasque4667]

As someone who was emotionally neglected as a kid and who knows a lot of people who experienced similar sorts of abuse, it set off some opposite sort of alarm bells for me. The whole “It’s just that nothing we do works” speech is one that I got more than a few times, and it can be really damaging for a kid’s wellbeing.

[@pleasestopsubscribingtomyc3360]

@@firetarrasque4667 considering the whole lawsuit, i think lack of trying wasn't the issue here.

[@SeppelSquirrel]

Children abusing their parents is far more common than we may think. When both parents have to work extra hours to make ends meet, they can't be home all the time to monitor their kid searching the house and hacking their computers to get at those sweet bank details. And that's nothing to speak of the physical abuse that kids enact on their parents. Kids have all that free time to research ways to fight back, and I'm aware of two families in our neighborhood who are at war with their kids. All it takes is one misplaced bank statement or credit card offer to get another fix on gaming microtransactions. They have to schedule their breaks in between jobs just to get to the mail before their kids do. What are you supposed to do when you have to work 14 hours a day and your kids are smarter and stronger than you and threaten to destroy your entire livelihood, physically attack you in your sleep, and will commit thousands of dollars in property damage if their demands are not met? They will fight you until you're homeless. Then, with your resources are well and truly exhausted, they'll run off to find others to abuse for their gaming fixes. This has happened many times in the past and it's time these companies were no longer allowed to ruin children and families in this way.

[@Badficwriter]

Even playing the games that raise your blood pressure can cause trouble. People scream at games because they're designed to be challenging but many people don't have the mentality for that or there are bugs that drive you insane. I can't get my son to stop ear splitting rants at the computer games, but I do the exact same thing when I am playing. Its just what they're designed for. These games make people who had the bad luck in life to have high blood pressure and short tempers even worse to live with.

[@SeppelSquirrel]

@@Badficwriter Try playing Celeste. It's a challenge, but it's one that makes you feel good every time you overcome something you previously thought you could never do. It's the only game where I've been proud of my 3,000+ deaths, because it really shows how much I improved that I can now finish the entire game with only 70 deaths. Plus, it has an assist mode if you really can't get past something.

[@titan_uranus_0]

Frost is a cook; he should know that it takes 40 minutes to bring a Cold Take to a simmer

[@SimuLord]

He's a good enough cook to be able to simmer it for 40 minutes without turning it into something that is equal parts waterlogged and bone-dry, like an over-poached chicken breast. It came out delicious.

[@ThumpertTheFascistCottontail]

@@bugjams I used to be with it, but then they changed what "it" was!!

[@tomasferreira3415]

@@bugjams Hey daddy-o dont be a square about the new lingo!

[@downix]

As a game developer, in the monetization planning stage we threw about the term whale a lot for our latest title; not for how to capture them, but how to avoid becoming addicted to them. Too many titles our team has been involved with have bent over backwards to satisfy these handful of players, and they do that because they are hooked on the boatloads of cash. It is, in my opinion, to the detriment of these titles how addicted to whale oil (what we termed the money from whales) they became.

[@christianschweda2530]

"Whale Oil" made me think of Dishonored...

[@svenbtb]

Yeah, it sucks because as a company, of course you're in it to make money and all that. But for the average player (like me) seeing stuff like that is so frustrating and oftentimes puts us off even playing a game. As a recent example, i thought a turn-based rpg based off of LOTR on Google Play recently looked cool, but based on the screenshots and reviews i knew instantly it was focused on extracting whale oil and never downloaded it. But finance bros don't care about a game's quality suffering, they only care about maximizing profits above all else. Sorry you have to work at a place that makes games in that way, and hopefully it'll get better.

[@angel_of_rust]

"whale oil", i like this term. it's like the addiction goes both ways.

[@iller3]

you can only over exploit something for so long. (usually because that type of person will be weeded out of the market when it goes on for too long)

[@theinternetshavecome1640]

@@angel_of_rust That feels like the incredible irony. At some point it's the developers who have an addiction.

[@PasCorrect]

I remember once reading about a rehab centre for game addiction. Addicts would live there for however long, with no games or phones or internet, while they received counseling and figured out how to exist outside of their virtual obsessions. It was for adults, but man, it really sounds like "GD" needs a similarly drastic intervention. 12-14 hours a DAY??? I can't even imagine what that's like.

[@LilyCodes]

ADHD exists from birth - or at least very early childhood - and without intervention can lead to just about every other "damage" listed in the lawsuit. As someone who wasn't diagnosed until their early 30s, and went through a lot of those issues until getting the right medication and counseling, this just makes me feel so sad for the kid. I hope they get the help they need.

[@Gherontius]

I was hoping someone had already brought it up. There's no way they can make this stick, because ADHD and dyslexia are genetic, and the majority of their listed complaints are symptoms of ADHD and related executive functioning difficulties. I do hope companies will be held responsible for purposely addictive design, and regulated appropriately, but like Frost said, each case builds precedent, and people are more likely to read the verdict as a headline summary of "Companies Not Guilty" and the particulars will be forgotten. And in the end it will be cheaper for the companies to have the parents test for ADHD to show causality and then counter sue for costs of the "frivolous lawsuit," but, more likely, they''ll get some fast talking doctors to just read some ADHD fact sheets or they'll just tie up the case until the plaintiffs run out of money. So in the end the failure in particulars here is more likely to damage the family and the cause than lead to any appropriate measure of justice.

[@ChristopheVandePoel]

That statement about adhd and dyslexia, made me pull up the actual document to go look for it, and the thing is... It does not actually state explicitly that the child's ADHD and dyslexia was caused by games. It comes close, but with the punctuation they are using, i'm pretty sure that's not what it is saying. The way they state it, is that games caused the symptoms of the condition(s) to worsen enough to the point where the kid needed diagnosis and professional help. What it DOES say rather explicitly is that kids (and adults) with adhd are even more susceptible to the tactics the plaintiffs employ. They target the young and the weak. Very classy.

[@hamishmacdonald8593]

ADHD is usually a developmental disorder, occuring in childhood

[@TheRyulord]

@@ChristopheVandePoel Thanks for doing the digging. These stuck out to me too and I was worried the case was doomed.

[@nurbsivonsirup1416]

@@ChristopheVandePoel So, perversely, they may even have helped the kid get diagnosed at an early enough age, where they can still get the treatment they require and not half their life is lost to a condition they didn't know they have :(....

[@neetpride5919]

A 40 minute Cold Take?! The Escapist was definitely holding you guys back

[@Rolatii]

I'm not sure I agree that the "floor is wet" sign and waterslide analogy is quite valid, for three reasons: 1: Nobody expects people to make waterslides that can cause harm. It can happen, which is why small children should be attended to with their parents on such attractions. But the expected outcome of a waterslide is a small bit of excitement, and if you end up with a cut down your back because the owner of the slide couldn't be bothered to make sure their slide wasn't hurting people the owner should be held liable, no matter the age of the person going down. If game developers want to add monetization and gambling in their games, fine if you throw up a sign. If you want to add mechanisms to increase engagement or lengthen playtime, that's also fine. But if you want both, there needs to be some risk assessment to make sure that it isn't harmful. 2: Every water slide I've ever gone down has either had an attendant (and in some cases automatic mechanisms) at the top of the slide to make sure nobody on their end used the slide in such a way that they would hurt themselves, or been gentle enough that such oversight was deemed unnecessary. We know that most games that use these mechanisms are targeting and getting most of their profits "whales". If they put mechanisms in place that prevented or at least limited such excessive spending the situation still wouldn't be good, but it would prevent some of the worst harm involved. 3: If you hurt yourself on a waterslide, nobody can argue that you didn't get hurt on a waterslide. Whether I was acting like a jackass or the slide owner drilled screws into the tube, if I go in one end fine and come out with injuries, nobody can claim that my going down the slide wasn't a factor. As of today, the gaming industry doesn't really acknowledge that gaming is capable of harming people, and it only makes token efforts to warn users of the dangers of addiction. There isn't even a universal perception of harm in the gaming public, so what use is a "floor is wet" sign when not everyone agrees that slipping on a wet floor can be harmful?

[@Lombardio]

I really liked the analogy. Remember that he said he wants more "floor is wet" signs, especially to protect children (and inform parents so they can protect their children). I think your given examples are fine places to put warning signs. The danger he was expressing with too many "floor is wet" signs is oversaturation and desensitization. If you put up too many signs, people stop reading the signs. Wet floor signs are useful in places like freshly mopped hallways because the floor isn't wet, and a reasonable person cannot be expected to anticipate the danger. At a waterpark, however, I am dripping on the walkway I'm standing on while all of the people around me are also dripping. A reasonable adult can assess the same danger as it relates to their children and can parent appropriately. If I read such an obvious warning as "floor is wet" in that situation I am less likely to pay attention to any other warning signs, assuming they are equally obvious.

[@Wulfuswulferson]

@@AfutureV but it isn't always easy to refuse things even as an adult otherwise there would be no drug addiction, no smokers and everyone would eat healthily. We aren't on an even playing field, the games are designed to be addictive and the monetisation is designed to be alluring. It's not an even playing field when an individual is up against teams of behavioural scientists I think regulating these games is more akin to the FDA regulating a safe level of some chemical or other in food.

[@connorrichard9851]

I kind of understand what you're getting at, though I also feel that you may be missing the argument a little. My apologies if I'm wrong there, but I'll comment my two cents. I think the analogy still holds up. We don't expect wet floor signs all over a water park, but we do expect to see quite a few "rules" signs for the sake of liability. Those signs are for the parents more than the kids, and supervision is assumed. If I understand correctly, I think you might also agree with Frost's overall point that maybe games should have such warnings -- especially when they're directed at kids and typically without supervision. I don't think the water slide analogy fails to make his point. His point being, if I understand correctly, that a child doesn't gain anything from being warned of a wet floor when the onus is on the adults to supervise and teach caution. "It's a water park, go have fun in the water, just make sure I can see you." I think the significant similarity is that warnings directed *to a child* are likely to be ignored/improperly understood, but *to a guardian* who has reason to find and read the rules, they can be informed of what is and isn't dangerous for a kid to do. Water parks might not be *perceived* as dangerous, but they do tend to have strict rules (if they want to continue operating, much like a casino) and breaking those rules can get you kicked out, no doubt. I am probably extrapolating for him here, but I really do think this is the point he was leaning towards. I think if he'd used a casino as an analogy it would fall flat, as casinos are age restricted and it is on the adult to understand/comprehend the probable harms of gambling. On your second point, it seems like you consider milking the "whales" of money to be the most financially harmful practice. Again, I might be misinterpreting, but I would personally argue that the point Frost is making is that it's the average child joe that is most potentially harmed, as the whales are typically adults who are choosing to spend a lot of money on a single game. Whales spending a LOT of money isn't an issue, it's a child of an average household spending any more than a one-time payment on a game. Again, apologies if I'm just missing the point, but I think the "perceived harm" that you mentioned is exactly why he made the analogy. Water parks aren't perceived as harmful, though there can be harm involved. The harms are mitigated by informed supervision, and video games uniquely lack that factor intrinsically. (edit) I think anyone who loses thousands on a game can scantly argue that the game wasn't involved, just like the slide is a factor in your getting harmed even if you did nothing wrong. To argue otherwise would be intentionally dishonest.

[@Wulfuswulferson]

@@AfutureV Humans aren't rational robots with access to perfect information so we have regulations. There are government regulation affecting every other part of your life, why would games be exempt from that?

[@Bashfluff]

You're right. Signs aren't enough. Video games have become virtual casinos. It's gotten to the point where actual casinos are paying video game streamers to promote them. We're raising a generation of gambling addicts. According to the APA, minor and young adult gambling rates are at their highest in the history of the U.S., and its directly linked to the rise of gambling in video games. Lia Nower, JD, PhD, director of the Center for Gambling Studies: “Kids as young as preschool are being bombarded with requests to buy things in video games. A lot of kids move from betting on loot boxes in video games to playing social casino games that are free and then triage them to pay sites. You can’t really tell gambling from video gaming anymore. There’s so much overlap.”

[@Vastin]

Great coverage here. loved your overall dive into the various aspects of the problem. As a 30 year developer, I can alas, absolutely confirm the basic aspects of the company's behavior. They absolutely do include these mechanisms with a full understanding of the psychology they are intending to create: FOMO, Sunk Cost Fallacies, Gamblers Fallacy, and many more besides. I know this because I've been part and parcel of those design discussions myself. Many companies DO intentionally target minors via these mechanisms, though their main targets as noted, are often 'whales', who are generally identified as white male professionals who are often status driven in their purchasing patterns, or simply price insensitive. However, children can be whales as well, and if the parents are unaware of how the purchasing mechanisms in a game work children can classically rack up enormous bills in a very short time due to their lack of understanding regarding what they are purchasing and how. The games are made to be addictive, with microtransaction games much more so than others. As for this particular case, I'd personally have to say that it sounds like the kid in question has more problems than video games can account for - though if a dramatic change in behavioral patterns can be identified and tied to his exposure to games then the case becomes more compelling. Video games can and do mess with behavior - we design them to, within reason - and modern microtransactions have made that relationship between consumers and publishers far more dangerous and adversarial than it once was. In the old days we just made a game to be as 'fun' as we could. Now we will *intentionally* cripple games to make them less fun unless you insert additional quarters. This is absolutely a thing that most microtransaction games do and a reason I personally simply don't play them, having seen how they are made from the inside.

[@Alexx1083]

This is like information + ASMR, I like it! Anyway, this particular case seems more like the parents were preyed upon more than the child. The parents were just completely blindsided and didn't expect any of this (plus I highly doubt this kid suddenly developed some of these afflictions through video games). I grew up with games, I fell prey to ignoring school work to try and get all the Chaos Emeralds in Sonic 2....and suffered the consequences of having the Sega unplugged and taken away moments from getting that last emerald. But do I blame my dad? Nah. He did the right thing. That last Chaos Emerald wasn't worth as much as my grades, or the possibility of summer school or more restless nights wondering how I'll get in trouble next. And that's paltry compared to the possibility of addiction now, I know (that wasn't even my Sega; it was borrowed from a friend, so no money was even lost). Still, they were lessons learned from gaming, and even if I didn't grow up with these specific types of games and transactions, my lesser experience still allows me to RECOGNIZE them. The parents in question obviously couldn't. So in the end, yeah, I agree with the wet floor signs. There are a lot of parents out there with no gaming knowledge. They don't need to get all the Chaos Emeralds or even get the high score in Pac-Man, but they DO need to know what is involved and they have to pay attention and be aware that this is not something you simply hand to your kid and say "have fun" without watching. I'm not gonna hand a match to my toddler and blame the fire for burning him, and I'm not gonna hand games to my seven year old and blame the company for not explaining addiction to me....but just like a waiter warns you that the plate is hot, I think a company should be transparent about what it is they make and how it can effect you, for those totally out of the loop.

[@hickknight]

Well, I would. If that game is a single player experience contained within said game. And even then, watching the kid like a hawk, because of the emotions involved in said hobby.

[@ryanhenderson225]

I think the real conflict here is Video Game Companies preying on the Uninformed Parents of the children that are playing video games. As a teacher, I have seen parents that are super informed and others who know as much or less than their student. The only way to protect your kids is to be informed and intelligent yourself. Not saying that companies shouldn't be held accountable, THEY SHOULD BE. But the super rich companies will do what they want and there is very little we can do about it, so the best we can do is be at our best.

[@anna-flora999]

"they will do what they want" To a point. A casino openly advertising to primary school children will get in trouble, too

[@ryanhenderson225]

@@anna-flora999 And parents that let their kids into the casino with money to spend will get in trouble too

[@anna-flora999]

@@ryanhenderson225 exactly. Because we collectively agreed that both parties have a responsibility to prevent it

[@mrshmuga9]

Unfortunately it’s not just a matter of simply being “uninformed”. I worked at a game rental store and the amount of parents who would rent M-rated games (COD, GTA, Dead Space almost) to their _6-8 year olds_ was most of them. In fact, it was rare to see a child rent a child-friendly game in my 5 years working there. And informing them of the content didn’t matter. said you could pay for a h00ker in GTA, kill her, and dump her in a river and the response was “we’ll stop him before he gets to that part”. Even though that can happen at any point because it’s an open-world game. They’re lying to my face. They simply don’t care and just use it as a baby-sitting tool. I think with Dead Space I changed their mind by mentioning dismemberment (I don’t recall if they rented it or not, but if not, it wasn’t shock, it was just no response/reaction and putting it back). And no it’s not “dads being ‘cool’ for their sons”, it was all mothers renting them. I mean, Dead Space’s cover art is a chopped off hand. Even if you didn’t read the rating, you can’t get around that (and the cover was there). As for this specific case… how do these parents not notice the transition of spending literally half a day in their room, and needing home-schooling or whatever? You can make the reasonable assumption that they wouldn’t know the game is addictive and the game is age-appropriate (unlike my examples), but the company isn’t at fault when you let this go on for 8 months. If it happened in the span of a month, and spending tons of money, I could see that going unnoticed, and being addicted that quick would be a favour in their case. But this sounds like gross negligence. Sure they’re not doing “nothing”, but it doesn’t sounds like they’re trying very hard either. No sign of using negative reinforcement (take the console away, change the wifi password, etc). The dad apparently does nothing, and the mother says she’s scared to do anything… well that sounds like there’s details missing. Is this kid violent? I’m no junkie, but I’d never consider hitting my parents, which leads me to think he’s either been violent (and thus had problems) before, or the mother is making excuses to not take his stuff away. You know, basic rules for being grounded. Getting a home tutor just further _enables_ his addiction, it doesn’t help him change. Why would he? It’s beneficial not to. He gets to keep his addiction and the other problems are solved in favour of it.

[@Cyliandre441]

We can actually do a lot about companies just doing whatever they want, it's just not profitable, so the argument of personal responsibility is brought up to pretend it all depends on individuals, who, coincidentally, don't have that much power to change things.

[@jellorelic]

As a parent who's fighting with some similar issues now (not the money and health thankfully, but internet/online addiction paired with some autism spectrum issues causing problems with schooling), unfortunately it's not as easy anymore as "take away the router". Most of the kids school stuff is online, and I work from home frequently. So fully cutting it off isn't an option. I would have to engineer a white-listed subnet and attach his computer to it that's secure enough that he can't bypass it. In a house here he has access to the physical devices in question and knows as much, if not more, about internet security than I do. And even if I somehow did that he could tether to his phone at that point (no, you can't turn off data access on a per-device/line basis with most providers today) so I would also have to restrict phone access to a non-smartphone. Which we also really can't do effectively due to the 2factor requirements for some of his school sites. It's a terrible mess to try and disentangle people from technology these days even if they WANT to, so much of our lives requires it now.

[@theofficialjeff]

One option you have is something like Circle, where you can dynamically view what he's doing and say whether it's okay or not. It'll alert you if he turns disconnects on his phone as well, and you can tackle that with parental controls (at least on iOS, I'm not sure how things work with Android)

[@CastmanDan]

I feel like you are focusing on the details and missing the message. "Taking away the router" means that the same way you gave your kids access to these things, you can take them away. Keep the internet and install parenting control tools in their phones with their full knowledge, prohibit access to certain things, or just limit screen time with a good old clock, some monitoring and a firm "no" - no need for hi-tech overthought solutions. If your kid bypasses them, ignores you or has "aggressive fits of gamer-rage from withdrawal" like the video's kid, and you cant handle it, then Fortnite is no longer the root of the problem.

[@Cypeq]

Locking access is equivalent of trying to control your child by locking them in a cage, it's a punishment, if you make that permanent it's prison and they'll only resent you and try to escape.

[@involuntaryanalysis]

@@Cypeq Don't take the devices, don't cut them off from online access entirely, you'll only encourage acts of rebellion. Never take the device itself, take the charger/power cable. Now if they've been cooperative, and they're having an online game, please be aware, they cannot pause an online game, and just quitting CAN get them banned from matchmaking, so, unless they've been acting up, if a game goes over the designated time a bit, I'd suggest cutting them a bit of slack (10 minutes is reasonable, should give them time to finish up any game play, and say goodbye to their friends).

[@Cypeq]

Gotta keep in mind games and internet are entertainment there's nothing inherently wrong with it.

[@Musicman9492]

"I am a man of extremes, whose extremes average out" . Here, here, Frost, and here's to a continuing level of nuance and thought in all topics where the human element of games comes into play.

[@smeg4brainsukaya]

Loved this btw, I would 100% be up for more of these longer takes. My take is Companies, not just Video Games, absolutely use every trick in the book to get kids and adults hooked and coming back for more, you only need to look at CEOs of EA, Epic, and Unity to see that. But, as a parent it is also my responsibility to ensure whatever activity my child engages in is safe. I control the apps that can be installed, I read the reviews and check the T&C's, I ensure that they balance this time with family activities and socialising in other forms due to how important it is to their development. I also know how companies will do all they can to get money off us, just look at those damn plastic creature eggs with different rairty animals inside... You need a balance, and that balance is constantly sliding from greedy corps and disinterested parents.

[@purplegill10]

The problem with that way of thinking is that it flies out the window the second you take anyone neurodivergent into account. It's only after years of being in local therapy support groups, ND groups online, and going through a decade of therapy myself that I've realized that ND people _suck_ at balance and it's ruined more lives than I can count. The kid in the lawsuit with ADHD probably did get internet and video games taken away multiple times but I can tell you that some ND people quite literally can't process the concept of having something taken away as punishment or healthy for them. In fact, for a couple people in this online group I was in, it was actively damaging to them because they didn't realize that they were trans at the time and video gaming was the only means of dealing with dysphoria. I've met people who have become violent against their parents, use a remarkable amount of social engineering to ruin their parents' lives, use knowledge about their internet connection to lock their parents out while whitelisting themselves to do what they want and chalk it up to the internet acting up, and in one case even being detained in juvie but then get out for good behavior and make their parents look like the bad guys. The unifying factor for all of them was undiagnosed ADHD and it was like magic watching them transform into people who finally weren't in pain anymore and were able to function in a world not made for them. The problem isn't the parents, but far more the lack of education surrounding ADHD and similar neurodivergencies and that's where you get parents who can't control their children and these horrible practices by these companies to exploit that way of thinking.

[@o00nemesis00o]

@@purplegill10 ....seems like they only got ADHD and "gender dysphoria" in the first place because of outsourced parenting and manic media overstimulation.

[@balther10]

@@purplegill10children don’t have access to massive amounts of money, their parents do. Having a neurodivergent child doesn’t mean that a parent can’t still do whatever they can to not let their kids fall into these pitfalls. They still have a responsibility. Even in this case the kid isn’t working a job, the parents are giving him the money to feed his addiction. The companies are awful that’s a fact. But personal responsibility is still a thing.

[@invisableumbrella]

Honestly, I’m disappointed. At the beginning, it was an exciting prospect that someone was fully targeting predatory monetization schemes directly, since The micro transaction ecosystem HAS, in my opinion, become something much worse than it should have ever been allowed to be. However, this definitely won’t be the lawsuit to make waves. As soon as you said they were putting their son’s dyslexia on the docket? Over. Done. No way is this ever getting past discovery. I think you’ve nailed it with the parents not being as transparent or informed as they need to be for this case to hold water. I suppose I didn’t consider that a lot of people don’t really have the vocab and necessary knowledge to describe the problems they’re seeing with the games industry, one of those “experts over estimating common knowledge” situations, even if I wouldn’t call myself an industry expert. I do feel bad for the kid, sounds like irresponsible parents and maybe the wrong medication. I feel bad for the parents too, since teenagers who just… don’t listen to anything you say do make you feel like you’re out of options other than just giving them what they want. Sticky situation, but unfortunately not the slam dunk evidence against major games companies they’re hoping for. I’m a little more cynical than you, I think, about in game purchases. I never had a problem with cosmetics or whatever, and gacha games are kinda fun (will I get the pretty girl jpeg this time?? can be a fun experience despite knowing it’s frivolous). Paid advantages tho? No. I hate them, and really wish that they would sink into the sea. It’s one thing in competitive trading card games, that’s just kind of how the genre was built, but in shooters, puzzle games, or anything else… even if it’s all transparent, it sucks. What is the point? Real money skews player priorities, and pay-to-win encourages bad game design. Not bad system design, they are very effective systems, but games as a pastime people do to feel accomplished or have fun has really diminished. Why bother producing a fully finished, polished, enjoyable game? The profit incentive is to release a playable enough product and have people pay to bypass the jank. Anyway, sorry for the long comment. TLDR; great video. This lawsuit won’t be the one to make gaming giants pay attention, but hopefully it encourages other people to try.

[@tukkajumala]

This case sounds to me like a mom who does not want to admit she screwed up looooong before her son became addicted to Fortnite. These things tend develop really early, before the kid is five years old. It is those early years that shape the path that a person travels for the next eighty. So any and all definitive mistakes were probably made then, not in the his pre-teens. And no, I am not a psychologist, but I am a dad of three.

[@poprocket2342]

I think the problems with this lawsuit are inherent. The only people who are going to be incensed enough to file a lawsuit are the ones like this where their lack of oversight made the problem worse. You're not going to see a lawsuit brought by industry experts and people with experience who know all of the layers of manipulation being used. It's always going to be a parent who's actions can be used by the defense to deflect and dodge and get off with maybe just another sticker they need to put on the box. I really don't see how regulation can stop these practises short of actively controlling what monetisation methods are allowed in games and that's never going to happen.

[@SGTArcAngel7]

You literally took the words I wanted to add! Well said :) The mom seems like she cannot handle the fact that she screwed up. She's right about her son being messed up, but she cannot blame the companies for all of those things that happened to him. It's her fault for letting it get this far. Especially at the age of 13 and already having this list of issues.

[@Pecisk]

Yeah, for this case to go anywhere it needed to stick with one legal theory, it will be just thrown out by judge. Summary of freemium game methodologies made me want to leave gaming forever.

[@glockmat]

Their kid has dyslexia and ADHD allegedly. I have ADHD too, the cause is neurological function, inherited from the neuron formation in the womb. It is impossible to acquire ADHD, it is related to how neurotransmitters work on the brain. As soon as it get to court, this is immediately gonna be dropped out. If this big of a problem is immediately out, the rest of the case is stand on cards. And to worse matters even more, all of the cited symptoms of the kid are known consequences of ADHD, so this case is either gonna be dismissed or the lawyers will have a field day. Obesity and addictive behavior are common among ADHD, because the prioritization and command center of the brain is fucked. This alone will lose a shit load of credibility. The physical pain can be either due to bad chair, sitting position, or alike, and the obesity. So at this point their case is only left with Dyslexia and the spending habits. Not to mention 4 out of the 5 games are Mature rated, so 4 out of the 5 companies will appear in court, immediately say that kids should not be playing those games, and walk out because there is no other counter argument to this. The only argument that the parents can have is to say that they should implement better control on who plays their games, while the companies will just say: "And you should be more attentive to what your kid do on their computer and/or console". There, done, the is no argument the parents can reasonably make And Dyslexia is genetic. So how are they gonna argue that video-games caused it?

[@jokool_aid]

Growing up, we didn't have internet in our house until I was about 15, and that was dial-up, so I didn't have the problem of "addictive video games" as a kid thankfully. I also had a grandma who made sure I wasn't playing Pokémon or Mario for too long and that I did my schoolwork and chores before I could play with my Gameboy. There's definitely a problem with the gaming industry today for multiple reasons, but you obviously can't just say "Your game made my son play 10 hours a day non stop!" If you're too scared of your own child to tell him "No," then there's a problem with your parenting.

[@skt453]

To go to an extreme this reminded me of kids dealing drugs behind the supermarket. Parents can fight their kids and keep them in the straight path, but I also think they have a point when asking what's the police doing. Sure mistakes were made on the parents' side, but that doesn't absolve for solving the other issues raised by the case.

[@avramnovorra]

While I do not have a child of my own, I am an uncle and I can see how my niece, at least each time she visits us, is always either on roblox or Genshin Impact on her mobile phone, and I have seen how easy it is to blow cash on either game. Thankfully she doesn't always ask for moolah for in-game content, but seeing this video makes me want to show her my Steam/GOG library of games where there are no microtransactions and dont have FOMO in them either. Ill share this video with my own relatives, knowing that it may go over their heads, but it pays to raise awareness of the more intricate parts of why certain games like the ones involved in the lawsuit can be a tough nut to crack. Keep these cold takes coming Frost, this one might be my fave one yet!

[@voiceofagony]

Great video! I agree with your points on parents having to be the ones that stop their kids getting addicted but understand it might be difficult. Currently I have a toddler and am worried about how I will approach this when the time comes.. I love gaming and want them to as well! But I am all about the single-player experience, I'm lost when it comes to battle royals and loot boxes 😅

[@DemonEyes23]

Just keep them away from the credit card, and possible games with any sort of loot box/gambling mechanic. You'll probably be fine then, except for when they go over their friend's houses 😂.

[@bendover460]

You tell them no. Firmly. I have 2 kids. Both honor students. They have limited internet access. No smartphone. They have Shitloads of games. Never had any problems. Put your foot down damnit. And dont let them play sleazy shit. No fortnite or call of duty. Keep it simple. You're the parent so youre in charge.

[@t2i3m4]

Growing up I was only allowed 1 hour of gaming per day or 2 on weekends. Do that and fill the spare time with wholesome family activities and you'll be fine. Hell find a good couch co-op like Mario and play together.

[@20storiesunder]

Game dev here. It's all about which games you let them play and the time they are allowed to do so. Don't treat it as a reward for good behaviour (that's how you make it into a holy grail) rather just something fun. My friends kids love their ps5 but they love more going up a mountain, going to a forest or something like that because their mum has ensured that they do fun amazing stuff. I have a toddler too so best of luck to us! 😅

[@_Zaid]

There are plenty of great games that don't have any microtransactions or dark patterns. Choose those games, and balance gaming with active and social activities in the real world.

[@dethfactor]

Hearing Frost saying he was "Mexican and 28" in a Noir-esq tone was akin to growing up having heard Rick Astley on the radio as a kid and finding out he was a tall British white guy. Great video. Keep up the great work!

[@Simplebutsandy]

A man who sounds like he has spent the last five decades smoking gravel is younger than me. I don't know how to feel about this.

[@Jack93885]

What was you prior mental image of him?

[@smeg4brainsukaya]

@@Jack93885 probably the same as mine, a Noir Dick Tracey :D

[@garjian0]

Wait what? First, Rick Astley is 5'10, pretty average. Second, what did you think he was? He sang with a weird classical voice in his Waterman days, and well... Waterman. I don't think you could get much more English (or white, just look at that dancing). Mexican was a surprise to me, but really, anyone can train their voice to some significant degree. My voice is very deep as it is, but I learned a whole octave lower (for... reasons...), but I could only do quietly. Occasionally I would practice getting it to normal speech volume, and I pretty much have it now, but not quite every inflection. Feels silly to use, haha.

[@97Multiphantom]

How is this man only a year older than me?!😂

[@exaltedarchvile4357]

You are right. There needs to be lawyers who specialize in gaming and maybe even online media. It's only going to get worse and worse if the next few generations don't wise up and strongarm some regulations into game corporations. It'll just be the same cycle of hirings and layoffs and gross profit from an audience that doesn't know any better.

[@harleysteele7025]

Or.... Be an adult be accountable and be a parent stop encouraging a nanny state

[@Praisethesunson]

​@@harleysteele7025If you think the nanny state is a problem go buy some oatmeal adulterated with heroin. Since food regulations are nanny state communism you don't need them.

[@theaureliasys6362]

@@harleysteele7025 except they are selling themselves as child safe. nowhere does it say "this is a casino with a nice front" with a real life casino, you can';t participate until you are age of majority.

[@harleysteele7025]

@@theaureliasys6362 1 most of the games listed are rated M so not child safe 2 for the casinos like FIFA or kids rated games like fortnite there are tools to set time limits It all comes back to be a parent

[@harleysteele7025]

@@AfutureV then ask the ESRB to do that I don't know why the knee jerk reaction is get the govt involved

[@Stilesda]

I think your conclusion at the end is really important for people to know and understand. If there are gonna be court cases over this stuff, they need to be ironclad, not wildly flailing about with loads of holes in their case and a really shaky foundation built on "it's the companies doing this, I did nothing wrong by allowing my child to interact with the products in this manner for what I am claiming is nearly a year of 14-hour days and thousands of dollars in spending I somehow disapprove of but could not stop." Many judges here in the USA will throw that out immediately on principle

[@Whitepawprint]

I'm not a parent myself, but I do think this case sounds like it deserves a lot more empathy than most people seem to be giving it. I think "be a better parent" is easier said than done, and it sounds like the child in question has a HUGE amount of very complex needs. For reference, I would describe myself as someone who had almost no parenting at all (not ideal), but didn't, when left to my own devices, become a homebound, uncommunicative, rage filled, game addicted teen - the fact this kid HAS, points to more than bad parenting to me. Being the parent of a kid with such complex needs can be EXTREMELY HARROWING. The fact the parents outright said they are scared of the kid says a lot - in most homes parents do not have to fear physical harm from their kids past the age of 3 or 4. It's all well and good saying "take the router away", but that's a lot harder when the response is for them to attack you, or potentially hurt themselves. To be clear, obviously good parenting is good. But this doesn't sound like your average parenting experience

[@chrispete5773]

"I'd sooner pay for cigarettes than Magic the Gathering Cards." What a wonderful line. I enjoy this lots.

[@kevinlilley5063]

As a Magic player myself, I should have stuck with cigarettes...

[@aeloswindrunner]

I hope this case makes some progress. Companies have shown repeatedly that they'll push the envelope as far as they can and they need to be challenged. The gaming consumer has conceded too much ground, particularly over the last decade or so

[@zaleost]

Now I’m actually a little curious to see how this all plays out. It’s not like it’s any kind of secret that these companies have made their in game monetisation systems highly exploitative in recent years. But at the same time it does feel very apparent that family could have done more to stop their child in the first place.

[@ArtDadDraws]

This story is the reason why parents have a RESPONSIBILITY to be tech savvy. My parents relied on *me* to be tech savvy and I got away with so so so much. My kid will also be tech savvy, but I'll be just as savvy as him for his protection. Loved this video, Frost. Cheers!

[@balkanexplorer6092]

I genuinly think that more transparency DOES help alot with addiction to video game lootbox gambling and purchases in general. Making it illegal for companies to make digital currencies (robux for example) and showing in-game purchases with actual real dollars 💰💰would help alot.

[@thebluehero7319]

This is exactly what the industry needs. Games should still be able to make up free currencies that can be obtained by playing, but anything that requires real money should just be a price tag in real money, not a confusing conversion of currencies.

[@AHungryHunky]

@@thebluehero7319 Or my favorite, "most items cost 200 funni munni, but funni munni can only be bought in lots of 500" so no matter how much you try, you'll always have some odd amount left that you can't spend on anything.

[@xboxgamer474246]

It's easy to blame parents for their inability to control their child's habits, but when looking at the finer details of this case I think it's obvious some sort of intervention is necessary. Personally, I'd love to see the gambling nature of games get reigned in, especially games targeted at young children. Fortnite and the like use social exclusion as tools to sell you skins. You literally don't have any control over your appearance unless you spend money. This creates the perception that players with more skins, more emotes and more vbucks than you are better able to express themselves and, tacitly, are having more fun. Children are incredibly vulnerable to this social pressure. They deeply care what their peers say and think about them. This creates an environment that pressures them to spend what little money they have on a game that offers no long term financial benefit. They just want to have fun and fit in, which means someone's got to pay the piper. Children are not rational actors. You can explain FOMO, gambling addictions and all sorts of stuff to them & they can absolutely understand the concepts, but that doesn't stop them from wanting to play. That doesn't stop them from cracking lootboxes or anything of the sort. That doesn't stop them from wanting that emote all their friends have. I worry this case is going to fail on the perception that the parents need to "keep a leash on their child" and not the coercion of the gaming companies themselves. Heck, if the case goes the way of "child gets intervention, gaming companies are unbothered" then I wouldn't be surprised. This seems like a "good cause, wrong case" situation. I'm not a lawyer and I'd love to be proven wrong, but those are my thoughts.

[@chadbusch8541]

At first i rolled my eyes but the more explained the more i understood and agreed. FINALLY we have a concerned parent who did research!

[@TabithaRicheson1996]

I agree that games targeted to children should have some safeguards but I think this case is going to fail more than anything because It's going after too much at once, and this sounds like more a case that this parent is looking for something to blame rather than their failing. ADHD, depression and weight gain? There can be underlying issues that they aren't looking at. I am not saying there shouldn't be regualtions but, this case screams throwing pasta at a wall and see what's ticks.

[@metazoxan2]

@@markhackett2302 I think monitoring your kid enough so they don't spend hundreds of dollars a month for around 8 month isn't "hilicopter parenting" You shouldn't smother your child, but don't be so ignorant of what they're up to that they have joint pains at 13 and all of the other crap he supossedly had.

[@jamespondy0]

1) there are many games you get free skins from 2) you have to ask yourself "where did this kid get 3 grand from??"

[@masternecro3511]

@@markhackett2302 The game has a big label on it that say M for Mature and outlines why it has an M rating. And it is the parents that are providing the money for the kid to buy these games. That is what will damage this case the most. Many parents do not do their due diligence in knowing what their kids are playing and knowing their kids personal maturity level to know if a game is right for them.

[@F0rger513]

Barely started the video yet but it's really cool you're telling people that they can jump to certain sections to get the info they want. Shows you care about your viewers and their time. Glad I followed this team to Second Wind.

[@TwoPairSA]

The last part is what scares me the most about cases like this. I feel like while there's some good points in the complaint, buuut it has too many holes and is mostly likely destined for failure, and like Frost says, when that happens the way U.S. law works means that that failure can and probably will get used as precedent the companies will use if/when similar suits inevitably come along. That plus the open secret that big companies can lobby the government means that no laws will ever block these sorts of things.

[@someguy4252]

also larger companys actually lobby for MORE regulation knowing they can pay the cost of complience while their competitors cannot. something somthing pulling ladder up.

[@wolvensky]

And just like that, I understand why they said this Cold Take would take so long.

[@mushuwu]

It really telling when the menu in many GAAS and microtransaction stores is built to have the most confusing interface. Like how a casino is easy to get lost in, so it maximizes the chance of you sitting down at a slot machine.

[@teokubici]

I've been watching Zero Punctuation since I was a teenager in high school, but watched nothing else on the Escapist channel. Now with Second Wind, I'm watching every show and loving it! Good job to everyone at Second Wind, and best of luck moving forward! Later edit: I just got to the part where you said you're 28. I am also 28 and awestruck at how well you manage to sound like a mid-to-late-40s noir detective. Cold Take is quickly becoming my second favourite series after Fully Ramblomatic.

[@Terran.Marine.2]

In all the internet cafes in all the world, she walked into mine.

[@tonyb9290]

I’m a single parent, kids can be tricky and sneaky but overall like you said, router goes away or Wi-Fi passwords can be changed, this kids case is a case of failed parenting more than anything. That said, I wouldn’t mind sone whet floor signs.

[@willowbarrelmaker8269]

This probably won’t stick, but I really hope it does. Nobody wants video games to become virtual casinos except for the companies that own them.

[@Praisethesunson]

​@@cloud4132Our capitalist overlords only like bigger numbers when those numbers are profits for them.

[@Nayutune]

The weirdest thing about "Nobody wants video games to become virtual casinos" is.. there is still millions of people defending and justifying exactly why each and every piece of the casino system has to exist in their favorite game. "Just ignore it", "It doesn't matter", "It doesn't affect the gameplay", "They need to make money". When people are making more excuses for why it needs to stay as opposed to why it should be removed, it really feels like they do rather want games to be virtual casinos instead..

[@Kane0123]

Yep, that part about the cognitive dissonance hit home. I played wow for a long time, never paid for a mount or any of the other rubbish - but it’s not because I’m some inherently smart person. The first and only time I have used real money for in-game stuff was Diablo 2 when I was 10 (facilitated by an older person in my life). Thankfully I felt like a shmuck afterward, because like Frost said - I’ve got money now so it’s even than it’s ever been to continue paying, but I had that experience when it was far less dangerous and it ruined the system it was meant to encourage because the gear I “earned” wasn’t really earned.

[@galaxycamerata]

@@Nayutune That's the issue; They don't want that either. They just don't realize that's what they're arguing for because they think as long as it doesn't affect them _in particular_ that it doesn't affect anyone worth considering, and a lot of the reasons they come up with are things the publishers themselves happened to say in response to the question of why they decided it was a good idea. The immortal phrase "You are not immune to propaganda" comes to mind.

[@madmurdoc7832]

The sad truth is, there are people, that want to spend the money, there are people, that just want the thrill of the chance game. Those people are, what the industry calls "whales". Kids, in this case, are sad, mostly unwanted casulties. The kids are drawn into these games by the industry, not to spend the money, but to be "content" for the wales in PvP Games. The sad truth also is (as with the case discussed in this video), that there are parents, which can not cope with the addicted children. The kid spend 350$ per month, aside from stealing the money, where did it get it? I don't think the kid was working, and yes, parents do have tools for such a behavior: - Remove the gaming device / limit playtime - remove credit information - Let the kid do some odd jobs to get a feel for how much money it is spending will say, educate the kid on the worth of the money, not just the numbers. Yes, this is HARD for a parent, but it is doable. Please, don't think, i am okay with the kind of games, pumped out by the industry. I myself rarely touch games, with ingame shops and, as an adult, set myself a limit per game, usually at max ~60-100$ per Game. I'd wish, we could go back to one time purcased games with the odd Expansion. Buy once, play forever. But this is not, what the industry sees as feasable, especialy with the budgets for AAA games. I feld to the indy-space, not because they are better, but because they are fresh and spend their development money on ideas, not just graphics. Gameplay, and a non existing urge to spent 50$ a month is what i want from a good game.

[@theaureliasys6362]

I will mention the "let's go whaling" talk and rest. my. fricking. case. they ARE engineering for maximum spending. they admit to as much. and yes this should be off limits, ESPECIALLY with kids.

[@Praisethesunson]

But kids are so much easier to extract money from!!! -Gaming corporations

[@maggie6152]

​@Praisethesunson Hold on there, you quoted the wrong individuals, lemme fix that: -corporations

[@Badficwriter]

Modern families need lockable banks for their wallets. It is unrealistic to think that addicted children with behavior issues won't steal your credit card info.

[@Shorty_Lickens]

I thought it was made public knowledge about 15 years ago that Blizzard commissioned research into addiction so they could make their games more popular. What happened recently? Did people finally just wake up and look around?

[@randomguy6679]

Any sources?

[@Shorty_Lickens]

@@randomguy6679 Suspiciously google is not giving me the results I want but I coulda sworn a LONG time ago I read a news article that claimed Blizzard had commissioned studies about addiction. And used the data to guide their game design. If google, for suspicious reasons, wont give me those search results, which search engine will?

[@Scott_Knutson]

Hey Frost, I really enjoyed this video, more-so than your previous works. I think the longer format and the more general topic worked in your favor. I would very much like for you to do a video essay on video game piracy, in specific PC gaming piracy. Like you I grew up poor (food stamp family), and I joined the Army to pay for college and give myself some opportunities I would otherwise not have. I recently found myself on Reddit and Steam boards and people were claiming piracy is fine if you can't afford games, or to treat it as an "unlimited demo." Eurogamer ran an article that said 93.6% of people who played Game Dev Tycoon on release pirated the game. These same people also review bomb games and developers who introduce anti-piracy software. Maybe I missing something here, but I have never thought theft of anything (besides basic necessities) is justified simply because it is out of your price range. Obviously I know you don't do requests, but I hope eventually you cover this topic. Keep up the good work!

[@georgefarmer1498]

As someone who studies the psychology of video games and is aware of the addiction literature, this is a good 'basic breakdown' of what we know so far. Love the video and keep up the good work!

[@QueenSaffryn]

As horrendous as these gaming companies are.. these parents absolutely have to share in the blame.. for starters they could just stop giving him those 350 usd per month, if I had behaved anything like the kid being talked about here, when I was a kid, I would've been tossed out onto the street and told to take care of myself, these parents are just looking for a payday to make up for their own shortcommings in raising their own son.

[@deaglan6641]

I do really like the tone and style in these videos. Your voice and the script writing carry this very well I think. If you plan on making a longer video like this I think it would be worth trying to keep the tone maybe, like its a proper investigation and analysis instead of the shorter less organized thoughts that are normally shared. I still like this video, but something to keep in mind.

[@jasonhawken871]

Holy shit, you're 28? People thought I was pretty wise around that age but now at 38 I bow to you sir. The mind boggles where you might be in another 10 years. Part of me hopes you end up in full blown existential philosophy. I ignored ZP until the whole mass exodus but now that's led me to discover Cold Take, and it may yet become my favourite content on the whole damn platform. If you ever hit Australia in the future, drinks are on me Frosty.

[@ThatGuyKazz]

"I want wet floor signs everywhere. But you know where wet floor signs don't make sense? Pools and water slides." great line well done.

[@RdTrler]

Except the industry wants pools and water slides everywhere, to make those wet floor signs meaningless.

[@andrewmeakin324]

But you know what else they have at pools and waterslides? Non-slip floors. The potential hazard is noted and steps are taken to minimise the risk. That's probably the real reason they don't put up the signs, the floors aren't slippery when they get wet. Would be nice if the game industry would take some basic steps to mitigate risk in places the hazards are documented and obvious too.

[@maggie6152]

There's also "do not run" signs in every pool I've been to in addition to the safeguards one of the above commenters mentioned.

[@revzsaz9418]

Beautifully crafted statements and points man 🥃 That last part about signs everywhere connected very well for me. As someone who has a certain affinity for deals, bargains, accords, and the like - I *love* transparency. It always feels slimey when someone attemps to craft a bad deal by hiding one or more important pieces of the puzzle. Annoy people with disclosure. Make folks uncomfy with verifiable information. These are good things. It forces recognition on one level or another. Either one will recognize what they might actually be getting into or they'll recognize that they don't want to know that much about it. Cheers Frost! 🍻 Thanks for an absolutely killer Cold Take 🙏

[@Nschmuker]

I appreciate the long form content, the short form has that nice punch to it, it gets right to the subject at hand cracks it open and makes an omelet, but the long from is more methodical, sure I couldn't watch it all in one sitting this time around but I came back to the kitchen to keep the metaphor going, happy to listen to whatever length content you decide to make (within some degree of reason of course, though you'd probably get a chuckle with something super short)

[@explosivefishpunch9796]

40 min cold take is exactly what I needed at work today! thank you everybody in Second wind guys, new channel already ascended.

[@StarRightStarTight]

I am so glad to see this series continuing. For some reason the words just hit harder when they come from a man who sounds like he is one drink away from one drink too many.

[@Tsumii610]

Finally someone tries this. We really need this type of protections in gaming. They're making brain chem dispensers and not real games.

[@metazoxan2]

We have protection .... it's called fucking parents!!! Seriously selling shit to kids has always been a thing, this is hardly a new development. But what has changed is more and more parents just let social media raise their own kids. If your child is overspending ... that's your failure as a parent. There is no reason a child should be able to overspend unless you let them. That's not to say the addictiveness of games for children isn't a problem in it's own way ... but keeping kids from getting manipulated by bad people ... is kinda what parents are supossed to be doing.

[@synmad3638]

I'm not sure the divide is that clear. But something has to change.

[@SimuLord]

Friends don't let friends play Skinner boxes. It'd be nice if actual gamer parents got together and formed some kind of equivalent of Mothers Against Drunk Driving, to inform non-gamer parents which games are good for kids and teens and which ones are just virtual drugs and gambling. I'm old enough that my first console was an NES (Christmas '88; I was 11.) I fear that the kids growing up on Roblox and Fortnite aren't going to have the fond memories that I have as an adult from having grown up first on Mario and Zelda and then, when I hit high school, Civilization and SimCity 2000. Which in turn led to the gamer I am today, a "lord of the simulation" as 22-year-old me awkwardly put it when signing up for GameFAQs and giving myself a username that's followed me across platforms for what is now more than half of my life. If I'd grown up on trashy Skinner boxes and adrenaline dumps, I'd have either turned into a 300-pound basement-dwelling rage demon (that kid's going to be someone else's ward for the rest of his days if he doesn't shape up) or more likely I'd look back on gaming as an adult the way I do right now about my adolescent substance abuse, as something that harmed me, I outgrew, and now I want nothing at all to do with ever again.

[@OB.x]

100% agree. There's gaming, and there's gaming. Gaming is already regulated, and you don't have kids losing their parents money. Just parents losing their kids money. But Gaming? That's a free fall. What's the difference? You can't tell without context, and that's the issue. If you're not in the gambling industry, you don't see the term "gaming" the same as I do. (gaming refers to gambling mechanism, phychological, etc the same in AAA), and we are extremely regulated.

[@aturchomicz821]

@@SimuLord The Simulation genre makes you smarter for sure🤤🤤

[@nixtarma]

I've started seeing more video essays doing the quick intro into relevant timestamps thing. It's great! Respectful of our time, and makes long-form videos easier to consume (though I just watch right on through)

[@trevalyon8610]

As 38 year-old man who grew up, obsessed with video games, but having to maintain my grades or they'd be taken away, this topic means a lot to me (especially with 3 kids of my own, and my desire to share my gaming passion with them). I really appreciate the deep thought you put into your perspective. Thanks for deep diving case and sharing!

[@Montesama314]

Steph Sterling did her own segment about the Addictive Costs of Predatory Monetization a couple years ago, which covers the adult side of this. One personal account involves an individual whose faily tried to get him away from real world gambling addiction through video games, only to see him throwing away hundreds of dollars on sports games, then first person shooters. Even when you try to avoid giving into vices, another genre or publisher tries to take a bite out of you.

[@Praisethesunson]

She is always years ahead of the BS gaming industry gets up to.

[@Chad_Thundercock]

I'm absolutely loving the hard boiled private detective presentation of this series. I hope this is a long lived thing.

[@ayebraine]

Definitely try the older episodes. I didn't watch any Escapist content aside from Yahtzee for years, but when I discovered Cold Take recently, I listened to almost every single one. What's more, the author made and narrated the Stuff of Legends series, which delved into iconic moments in "human" gaming history with the same nuanced attitude + humor.

[@utoherozv]

Excellent video! It was a bit lengthy if feel at some points, but overall I love what was covered and the quality of it all! It felt like another wonderful Cold Take. I'll take this series whether 4 minutes or 4. I love it. :)

[@xeruexe1624]

I cannot like this video enough for the topic and the actual meat of the discussion itself. More power and success to you guys. If I can make a suggestion, I'd prefer it more if the video showed something more than a long video game play through, since sometimes I get to engaged in the game in the video I sometimes have to rewind since I kind of zoned out what was being talked about. I liked the style in the last Cold Take video, but seeing as this is 40 mins long that might be asking a lot, so maybe scatter around shorter game screens? Like when the topic about video game patents by different companies, maybe show the games where those systems might be employed? It's just to juxtapose things, since there might be viewers like me who start to get more engrossed with how the dude on the screen is doing, and miss out on info being presented. Still, a great video overall. Cheers.

[@ManwithoutfearJDK]

Many thoughts. Seems appropriate. 1, As some with ADHD it enrages me to have it suggested it can be caused by video games. Much MUCH more likely the kid has ADHD and is more susceptible to the predatory elements of video games. The one may exacerbate the other, but not cause it. 2, I'm also a gamer & parent. I think I'm lucky in that I do know about gaming and can explain the elements to be wary of in games like fortnite etc to my kid. Not everyone knows, or is aware. And even as someone who knows a thing or three about gaming there is stuff even I don't know. I can't imagine how a muggle parent could navigate it. 3, Being a parent is hard work. Most of us have our own problems/anxieties worries etc. Adding a kid, even if you wanted one, can add even more. I don't think anything prepares you for how much work being a parent is. Even if (imo) it's awesome. So...I do give some grace to the parents. If the kid got into gaming during the pandemic when everything was scary, I could see green-lighting some money here or there and not realizing how much it was is understandable to me. That isn't to excuse the parents missteps, but offer empathy. Side note, what a great video! Well argued. I dig it so much!

[@bigbagofhate]

Frost, this has to be one of the most comprehensive takes on game addiction and pubs feeding into it I've ever laid ears to. Bravo, sir.

[@CaptainAtMan]

Im glad all this talent left the other website, but I'm still blown away by all the talented people I've been missing out on. Great stuff and its nice to see well thought out take on this kind of subject.

[@gameclawstudio5988]

Cold Take is a fantastic segment that I'm actually thrilled to discover. Looking forward to more!

[@5hane9ro]

10 years ago id call this stupid, but nowadays there is a point to be made about the addictive nature of modern games with live service games as theyre designed to keep you playing/spending

[@Praisethesunson]

At least 2 of the major Gaming companies literally spend more on optimizing the addicting nature of game than they do on actual game development.

[@aelechko]

It's a big part of why I've fallen out of love with gaming. Games used to be passion projects with a vision and a story to tell. And the story would end and you'd have your own interpretation to talk about with friends etc. Now they're just made by people who don't play games to make money and that's it. For AAA anyway. I'm well aware that there are plenty of smaller or indie developers doing some great things, but the greed exhaustion is real and I just don't enjoy most games anymore. Also doesn't help that with digital only sales the price of games never really goes down. In a store a few months after a game is released its price went down significantly. There's stuff on the PS4 store that are years old and still cost 79.99 and they try to be your buddy by making them 40% off once in a while. Even though they should be much less all the time. It's gross.

[@cullenmuir2707]

Honestly I'd love more long form video essays like this! Keep up the good work! 😁

[@cowmath77]

I've been thinking about selling my gaming PC the last couple weeks after endlessly scrolling my steam library for something to play among 100+ games and feeling extremely apathetic about the time I waste on this screen. From age 8 to 33, with around a 6 year gap from 23 to 29, I think I have lost the passion I once had for this stuff. Or maybe I am just too old for games? Never thought was a real thing but here I am at 33 and finding it my new reality. Or maybe its a symptom of what modern gaming has become? Who knows. Either way, the more time I spend trying to find something fun to play, the more I feel alienated. Armored Core, Cyberpunk, Remnant 2, Control, Karana Zero, Carrion and a few more have all kept me busy and having some fun, but afterwards, feels like I am here to just be sold the next thing rather than to have a meaningful experience. And that's not the fault of the small studios selling a cool experience, its a parasitic emotion attached to all games media lumping the experience of "gaming" together. Maybe, the magic is just lost once you see behind the curtain.

[@wolfshade5020]

Or you can always play games of the past or take a break from AAA

[@msrr4949]

I appreciate this format (and topic) so much I am going to give you engagement. Please more long-form Cold Takes!

[@Bashfluff]

How many parents would let their kids play games like Fortnite if they were aware of the extent of the psychological tricks and pressure that developers put kids through to try to get them to fork over daddy's credit card details? Parents need to know what's going on in these games. But it can't stop with the parents. Online casinos are paying video game content creators to gamble on stream, because to them, video games are creating future gambling addicts. That should be a wake-up call. Predatory monetization should not exist in video games that minors are allowed to buy. Period. It's bad for kids, and bad for society.

[@cyansuy3062]

If you were to tell people that someone is psychologically studying children and using the knowledge from that study to manipulate these children into spending money, brainwashing them into thinking their wants are needs, there would be outrage. Say that it's video games doing it, suddenly, it's solely the parent's fault and a problem that is blown out of proportion. Yes, parents need to bear some of the blame for bad parenting, but there's a limit to what they can do against psychological manipulation which children just so happen to be extremely vulnerable against.

[@frederf3227]

The idea that any one person, no matter how adult, smart, whatever, is supposed to compete with a TRILLION dollar industry which employs psychologists studying how to make you do something against your will is a lot. You might as well ask someone with a rifle to "just say no" to the armed forces of a typical country's military.

[@k1awdttt]

Holy production quality! Well written script with smooth voice and nice cuts. Especially appreciate the "level of information" announcement at the beginning. Timestamp helps but we don't know what we'd miss.

[@mattsmith2247]

I have to say I really appreciate the thought and effort that went into a video like this. Dick instructing any legal argument is difficult and it really does Mean a lot to see somebody doing this. I would say that I agreed with you on everything but I did agree with a very large percentage of what you said especially the matters of transparency. I also agree that, Taking everything else has even, a well made game is supposed to be fun to play and continue playing. I very much believe that your ability to continue playing a game you enjoy should not be restricted by how much you're willing to pay to do so. And I have to say that I really like the point you made about lawyers and parents not being well versed in information about the gamester chronicizing. Hopefully the next parents who decide to wage this kind of battle will learn from what you have showed them here tonight

[@ardendolas]

Great video, Frost, thanks! As a father of two young boys, I'm no stranger to the constant requests to play games like Fortnite and Roblox, and as a gamer parent, I have sufficient knowledge to back up my refusals to these requests. That said, I know a lot of parents in our circle who don't know anywhere near as much as I do, and often find they lose complete control over their kids' gaming habits. Both parents and industry have some part of responsibility in this...

[@RagTagPwner]

This was great. I like that you guys are allowing some flexibility in the formats. Probably wouldn't make sense to do this length regularly, as Frost himself states, but always having to fit an 8 minute time slot doesn't make sense either. And always glad to hear more Cold Takes.

[@adamdapatsfan]

Thanks for the deep dive! I enjoyed having all this information laid out, and you trying to see where the different parties involved were coming from.

[@tylerfoster2814]

Well stated and thanks for bringing the case to our attention. I fear that their lack of fluency in this space will see the case dismissed in short order, and you're right to be concerned about the precident it sets. I avoid these games because my brain's old enough to wrinkle, but convincing children of anything counter to the social winds is a tall order. I too feel a great sense of displacement of blame by the parents onto these companies, and I feel most will feel the same.

[@redwisp2689]

Well it's not like she's going to achieve anything. It makes a lot of money, so it stays. Every live service game got a behavioral psychologist on the payroll, and it's not like they are hiding it.

[@lordxmugen]

Thats probably WHY a lot of these ideas should be ILLEGAL, or at least heavily regulated. We do it for casinos, alcohol, and drugs. why should these companies be getting away with it too? And you could say "where does it end?", but we both know that they only do it BECAUSE they can get away with it and because its "just free money.", which is why they lobby so hard and evade taxes so much. Because "The law is for THEE. Not for ME."

[@MajoraWaffle]

you're optimistic huh

[@lordxmugen]

@@MajoraWaffle its not optimism. the Battlefront 2 fiasco got government officials sniffing at other videogame businesses that most of the industry went to battlepasses overnight. Why do you think that is? These "people" (a term i use as loosely as one can to describe these simulacrums of humanoid shaped meat) know what theyre doing and knew what was coming. The games industry AS A WHOLE created the ESA and ESRB to tell the US government that the industry didnt need oversight, only for said ESA to tell the people "Lootboxes are OK for children. Theres nothing bad here. Nothing to see." When they all got caught.

[@SimuLord]

@@lordxmugen "a term i use as loosely as one can to describe these simulacrums of humanoid shaped meat" Man, I just wanted to call out that brilliant turn of phrase. On a par with Frost himself.

[@Cyliandre441]

The argument of personal responsibility is almost always a copout, a way to justify not taking a coherent stance. Even if the parents were irresponsible the companys prayed on this irresponsibility too. They know people screw up and act carelessly, they rely on it.

[@Praisethesunson]

Exactly right. Personally responsibility is a lie to keep focus away from how major corporations are using their power.

[@NotThatGuy_YepThatGuy]

Exactly. There can be multiple points of failure in any system. You address the ones you can. We can't make parents be better parents. We can make companies be better companies.

[@braedenmclean5304]

I mean, if you as a parent were just blindly giving your kid 350$ a month for no reason, watching them drop out of school and never coming out of their room. There might be a problem

[@braedenmclean5304]

@@markhackett2302 alright then smart guy, where was the kid getting 350$ a month?

[@braydenputt2237]

I think Frost hit the nail on the head with his last opinion point. Kids do not understand the warning signs. And this really does boil down to who is responsible for the child's harm: the parent for allowing their child to play the game, or the studio for making one predatory to children in the first place. It's an open secret that the ratings may as well be null and void since, like the lawsuit says, all you need is an email, name, and password to make accounts to the buy/play any game no matter the rating. And idk about you all as kids, but if I wanted something I wasn't afraid to use underhanded tactics to get what I wanted. The parent can't control the child if they're making moves behind the parent's backs, and we know that it's equally unhealthy to spy on your child 24/7. It feels like there's an unreachable middle ground that ends with parents having to choose the lesser of two evils. This is messy and anything with kids and teens always will be

[@lumer4199]

Great work, Mr. Frost! You've always been my favorite of the now Second Wind crew. If this is the new format I would be ecstatic. However, do what you need to do man, that's the point of Cold Take.

[@El-Burrito]

With the recent fighter coins debacle in SF6 I've been starting to hope we get some more legislation around monetisation in video games.

[@mogimbo]

Thanks for a levelheaded take on a minefield of a topic. I feel we need a lot more of this level of discussion and analysis regarding gaming as a whole. In my experience, the debate and discourse on gaming hasn't expanded into the general conversation in a way that reflects it's immense influence and sheer volume of money being spent. Gaming is a complex phenomenon that needs to be discussed about on many different levels, not least of which is the ways monetisation can motivate potentially harmful design choices. It's a tall order discussing gaming and kids. It tends to hit emotional switches and defenses, and there's no simple answers for every situation. I'm happy channels like Second Wind gives me somewhere to learn more about a topic that's both very personal and professionally relevant to me. And I'm especially happy and impressed that Frost managed to get his points across, give me food for thought, be informative, cool as a goddamned cucumber AND be entertaining throughout. Kudos. You're currently winning the internet IMO ❤

[@ripsterhipster5948]

Second Wind is the best thing to happen to the internet in a long time. Thank you guys so much for all the hard work

[@darinjohnson7176]

Great video Frost, both your short for and long form essays are great. The patent part blew my mind, I knew it existed, but to hear the framework and methods makes it so much rougher. My hobby and passion has become a commodity.

[@eddythefool]

I was never caught by the modern gaming insanity, but I have younger cousins that have fallen prey to it so I feel like it's by resistivity to help them out before it gets this bad.

[@LeoDVfan]

I enjoyed this longer-form video. The details in court cases matter a lot. Wouldn't mind seeing more of these.

[@feetfirstlifestyle5440]

Awesome video. The format and presentation is so slick, and of course, those sultry tones 😉

[@tofire2261]

holy shit a 40 min cold take im sitting the FUCK down im makin popcorn lets GO

[@myyoutubeaccount4167]

Hold on I got you 🍿 🍿

[@sinteleon]

I'd note that while most casino games and similar don't have lengthy participation periods, there are some with extended participation periods, be it by extending duration from participation to result (any lottery falls into this category), extended interaction periods (bingo, some card games), and incentivized extended gameplay sessions (many slot machines with rewards based on accumulation of game-related points towards an ingame event).

[@Logenbarry]

Appreciate the deep dive and please feel free to keep making Cold Takes as long and thoughtful as this one

[@NikolaiCarpathia]

This was a fantastic dive into a subject that needs more legitimate time in the spotlight. A lot of thought-provoking, and saddening, subjects and opinions in this one. I look forward to future Cold Takes.