There's A Disease Infecting The Game Industry | Design Delve

[@firelordeliteast6750]

This reminds me of a story I once heard. A woman who always cuts the ends off her sausages is asked by her daughter why she does that. She replies that her mother did the same. The woman then asks her mother why she cut the ends off sausages, who replies the same way, her mother also did it. What none of them know is that back when the first woman's great great great greatmother made sausages, she didn't have a big enough pan to put the whole sausage in, and all her descendants ended up doing the same.

[@benvelveeta6803]

My family had something like this happen, whenever the dishes were clean, we would always flip the cups upside down. Me and my mom always assumed it was just to help them dry. Asked my grandma, and she got it from her mom flipping them upside down to keep sand and dust from piling in during the Dust Bowl.

[@Gillsing]

Keeping dust from accumulating in cups would indeed be my first guess as to why one would flip them upside down after they're dry.

[@jrknsOFF]

@@Gillsing I turn mine upside-down on the rack so the water drips out of them. Little to no dust build-up is just a bonus for me.

[@ianbelletti6241]

In a similar vein it could have started with the person doing that to cut the ties off the links but it got passed on because no one paid attention to the fact that those particular sausage links had string on them but the more modern sausages don't.

[@lesath7883]

@@firelordeliteast6750 Over here, we have the same urban legend. A family always chopped the tail of the turkey. Daughters and granddaughters kept chopping the tail. When asked, the grandma simply answered the whole turkey did not fit in her small stove, so she had to chop the tail.

[@HaunterM]

I remember when every action game had needless crafting systems added for no reason -.-

[@SageVallant]

You mean they stopped doing that?

[@Ech_The_Sentiant]

@@SageVallantNot quite, but it used to be way worse. Control of all games had a mod crafting system with multiple resources.

[@eddythefool]

What do you mean needless? How else am I supposed to turn all the scrap metal I find to bullets? Honestly though it pretty much ruined the bullet as currency concept in the Metro series since if you can craft bullets then they're not the finite currency that the first game made it out to be.

[@melimsah]

The Jiminy Cockthroat?

[@dustinmillar120]

Yeah I remember when the novelty wore off and it just got more and more annoying

[@sharlockshacolmes9381]

Ubisoft managed to make a cargo cult an entire company and business plan

[@merman1974]

Totally this. Endless sequels where they imitated rather than iterated - but players made them hits regardless.

[@Daretobestupider]

Painfully true

[@635574]

Az least not as boring as pokemon. Or worse, sport games. They only make sequels to get more money.

[@leithaziz2716]

Ubisoft can win an award for "most soul-less gamedesign" even though you can clearly tell the devs cared about the games they're making. They just play it extremely safe.

[@Al1987ac]

It's not a cargo cult, if the money keeps flowing.

[@ciara8811]

Currently looming at how every "tactical shooter" requires a system for attaching six billion greebles to your gun but never figuring out how to make shooting said gun actually fun.

[@dominicjannazo7144]

Or the attachments interesting. Look at jrpg Resonance of Fate for how ridiculous gun customization should work if you want meaningful things to change

[@jbutler8585]

It began by aping Deus Ex. A shooter with RPG elements that was wildly successful. Except its success was *in spite* of the pointless systems, they mostly got in the way. Games that use fps-rpg elements because they arrived at that decision themselves can be great. Imitation for its own sake has always been an automatic failure.

[@aravindpallippara1577]

​@@dominicjannazo7144 also warframe, absolute bonkers customisation for weapons (ranged and melee)

[@dark2023-1lovesoni]

I believe this is actually born out of a real-world phenomenon, which is just as stupid. Many gun owners, users, and collectors will often over-accessorize their weapons because they've seen photos/clips of special-forces operators with similar attachments. However, those operators are equipped for high-intensity & short-duration missions with an entire support team. In other cases, they're trying to make a "do-it-all" rifle, which has the exact same problem as most multi-tools. It will be mediocre at everything because it isn't specialized for any 1 specific task/role, a literal "jack of all trades, master of none" situation. Most of the time, all that extra BS is unnecessary & just makes a rifle/gun extremely heavy and bulky. You don't usually need anything more than some kind of sighting system and a sling. A foregrip is unnecessary, a bipod is unnecessary unless it's an LMG support weapon or a long-range DMR, a light is unnecessary unless you plan to be using it at night and then it's understandable/acceptable. More than 1 sight is absolutely ridiculous, especially if any are offset at an angle or stacked on each other, the only 2 exceptions are a magnifier, or folding back-up irons with a dot-sight. Any laser is also ridiculous/insane unless you have NVGs and actually train with using them. Drum-mags are another ridiculous addition because they are extremely heavy, bulky, awkward to carry, and often finicky/unreliable. However, many keyboard warriors and gun collectors see all these accessories, and the associated marketing, and they want to dress their gun up like a Mr.Potato-Head/Barbie, to customize and personalize it. They aren't actually having to carry thing on their back, with tonnes of other gear, for any significant distances. They just carry it to/from their car while taking it to the range on occasion. I think many game devs were either personally allured by the same marketing or they wanted in on the marketability of pushing excessive gun over-customization. Which also works better in video games because the weight and ackward handling characteristics don't matter much, and neither does reliability. If you die, you can just respawn or wait for the next round.

[@dark2023-1lovesoni]

Last point on excessive gun accessorization & customization. In real-life, most people don't need all the accessories and extra equipment. It's just a waste of money. The same $$ is better spent on ammo, range time, and other experience building activities/events, instead of adding more accessories/equipment. Like I said prior, the "do it all" kit is only mediocre at everything. Plus, all the extra weight just destroys the user's long-term endurance and efficiency. Nobody can buy skill or experience. Every brand new competition shooter has had to learn the same lesson the hard way. They'll build an expensive super customized "race-gun" and then lose to some guy running a barely customized mid-grade duty weapon. Why? Because the 2nd guy focused on his OWN ability and skill, he spent time and ammo to build actual skill and experience instead of trying to buy his way into high performance. However, in a game every character has nearly equal performance. So selling people the idea of making the gun itself better actually begins to make sense. Usually most guns are mechanically capable of outperforming most users, in both mechanical accuracy and speed, so the limiting factor is often the human. But in a video game, that's no longer quite true. Sure, there's a need for actual player skill, but the equation is basically inverted. There's no necessity for basic familiarization or implementation training, that's why you can often pick-up any enemy weapon and be practically just as capable with it as they were.

[@natp8387]

When I sold my antiques business, I had three people trying to buy it: one was a big dealer wanting to absorb my stock to keep up his own, one was a guy who had worked with me some years and knew how I operated, and one was a guy who had a completely different way of doing business to me. I hated the first, liked the second and was leery of the third, but in the end I sold it to the third (with the proviso he hire the second, to smooth over transition for my long term customers). Why? Because doing what I do and not being me was likely not good for the business. The guy had an actionable plan, it just wasn't mine... because he wasn't me. Now some years later the big bulk guy retired with almost nothing and the business I left behind is unrecognizable, but it's still there and still serving most of the same customer base I did. If he'd just done what I did without knowing why I did it and having the connections I had, he wouldn't have a business.

[@HiSodiumContent]

"Hey, you know what this well-designed, streamlined single player experience needs? A crafting system and diablo style loot and equipment to pad the runtime an extra 20 hours."

[@Oscar97o]

"And don't forget to add microtransactions so players can buy more crafting materials they didn't need in the first place."

[@SurrealLeaf]

Add stamina meter that lets you run 20 seconds and then move at exhausted snails pace for 10 seconds instead of letting players move at jogging pace whole game.

[@Drunkencrono]

I love Diablo-style loot...In Diablo. Diablo 2 is one of my favorite games of all time, and a lot of that is because of the loot system. But not understanding how to use it, when to use it, and what games it belongs in is a huge problem. Even Diablo 4 tried to copy some of what worked with D2's loot without really understanding what made it good and then they had to redo it a year later...

[@mrshmuga9]

It’s funny/sad when there’s RPG’s with more straightforward loot mechanics than say the latest God of War. It really is cargo cult thinking, because it’s not like they’re even doing it to get more money through MTX or something. It’s just a waste of the player’s time than having definitive or lateral upgrades. That sort of loot minutia only makes sense for either a FTP game or a rogue lite. Because both aim to be “endless” games, so you need “endless” loot to facilitate that.

[@uarthchylde]

Two words: Looter Shooter

[@AntiAntagonist]

This does also happen in the film industry. Studios and distributors repeatedly greenlight projects that ape past successes without understanding *why* they work, so the projects often end up being nowhere near as successful.

[@Kshandamion]

Perfect examples: WB and Universal trying to copy the MCU. Both only saw the dollar signs from the competition rather than *how* the money was made, Universal was already declaring the "Dark Universe" before the first movie was even made, both front-loaded their first movies with so much franchise-bait it distracted from said first movies being their own thing and both studies ultimately fumbled trying to beat Marvel at their own game.

[@felixdaniels37]

​@@Kshandamion And for an ironic cherry on top, Marvel has gone on for so long and so many new people entered the fray that Marvel themselves FORGOT what made them originally successful and are running off that same cargo cult logic. The MCU is completely falling apart because they're falling into the same pits WB and Universal fell into.

[@jeffreyedwards9968]

@@felixdaniels37 One way to look at it is a swing between production-driven and management-driven projects. When the money is flowing and success has been had, investors and managers dictate "safe" bets be Frankenstein'd together from pieces of prior successes without respect for what made those successful projects work. The production-driven projects are usually very risky and get lower budgets and most of the results are weird and misshapen but eventually the stars align and something both innovative and widely appealing bubbles out from the primordial creative ooze and that hero project becomes another "proven success" which investors and managers use to regain control.

[@cosmicspacething3474]

Zombie franchises be like:

[@Mythic_Zach]

I told a friend I was designing a game around a superhero, and my friend automatically assumed there would be a leveling system when I didn't even have any plans of including one.

[@moister3727]

@@Mythic_Zach Why do superheroes need to level up in the first place? Kind of strange

[@Mythic_Zach]

@moister3727 For some, it makes sense. Like Goku, for example. Goku is a superhero with variable levels of power that go higher and higher as he trains and fights. That's effectively a level-up system. Which I think is cool, but I see it in everything and I wanted to do something different.

[@moister3727]

@@Mythic_Zach It makes sense for a developing hero imo, but for someone like Super Man which is already really powerful I believe it doesn't

[@DivineOne-vb6td]

@@moister3727 Depends on the type of 'leveling up' they meant. It made sense for games like Prototype and Infamous to have a sort of progression system in the form of unlocking new skills and abilities to play with, as players like having a tangible reward for progress made. But an RPG style leveling system for a superhero game just sounds like you'll be getting pointless percentage upgrades on your strength stat ala most live service games.

[@ArturCzajka]

@@DivineOne-vb6td leveling system might make sense if game is designed to work with any possible combination of the choices the player can take. If there’s only 1-3 „proper schemes”, that’s not a system, it’s a trap for people who don’t want to min-max :P old Metroids had a progression system, which didn’t have levels, for example, but the whole map is kind of a puzzle. On the other hand hand many modern multiplayer RPGs claim to have systems, but if you’re off the beaten path, nobody wants to play with you, because your character is suboptimal, and there is no space for suboptimal builds.

[@Omnywrench]

This sort of reminds me of how after the Watchmen comic quickly became popular and well-received for its dark and complex themes, deconstructions of superhero tropes, examinations of the conflict between morality and power, and fleshed-out, well-written characters... but then other comic book writers glanced at all the blood and violence in Watchmen and assumed that's why it was popular, and thus a whole bunch of dark and gritty but otherwise forgettable superhero comics came and went for years afterwards.

[@Sorain1]

The entire Iron age of comics basically comes down to that. Creepy isn't it? (To give it a bit of depth, some good examinations were done because the new standards of editorial allowed it where they couldn't before, but there was a lot of follow the leader going on.)

[@mzaite]

Oh you mean EVERYTHING written by Garth Ennis ever? The one true Anti-Edlund?

[@leithaziz2716]

In a nutshell, everything Garth Ennis ever wrote. Sir "I have no passion in life other than expressing the things I hate".

[@mzaite]

@@leithaziz2716 Garth Ennis is the Anti Ben Edlund.

[@Kshandamion]

Specifically *Rorschach.* Moore intended the audience to see him as a toxic jerk with issues and instead because IDOLIZED by toxic jerks with issues, who completely missed the point. It's the precursor to the infamous part of the "Rick and Morty" fandom that projects onto Rick. I'd also add how "The Night Gwen Stacy Died" is another example. Gwen actually dying and Peter's accidental involvement would be shocking at the time and lead to *actual* character development for him over it yet following writers completely missed the points and got obsessed with killing off heroes' love interests for shock value that became the "Women in Refrigerators" trope. Then further irony that Gwen was dead for so long that younger readers didn't know the significance of the character or her death beyond being "Peter's dead girlfriend" until both Emma Stone's performance and the comics having the version from an alternate universe made Gwen memorable again (as ironically Mary-Jane now gets badly sidelined because the "Spider-Man" writers get off on making Peter suffer.)

[@anthonygranziol7957]

Once upon a time, a fellow named Yahtzee reviewed a game called Borderlands. He noted that the game had one quest that kept repeating throughout it and that the rest of the game was effectively watching numbers go up. Take that formula and look long and hard at the current gaming space. Then you might see what I just saw: an almost endless expanse of copies with different skins on.

[@Ansalion]

I mean, the formula works. It's the same in storytelling, there are a few story archetypes that almost all stories fit into, because those are the types of stories people enjoy. Same with music, we’re all just mixing and matching the same elements to come up with new things.

[@logansaxby7224]

The problem with gaming is that the writing just isn't up to par when compared to most books, TV shows and movies. And there's loading screens and filler content like side quests and random battles. You end up being an avatar for the numbers to go up until your numbers get bigger than the bad guys and then the credits roll. It's minding numbing. I'm unable to play video games anymore because of it. I just play Mario kart with my girlfriend and her nephew

[@ballom29]

@@logansaxby7224 Go play rainworld then,, because there is only one number that can go up...and it can go down...as a new player it will likely go down more frequently than up, so you gonna eb really happy when it's high....before it go down again crushing your hopes.

[@mpbMKE]

@@Ansalion If you think all stories are just rote templates it's probably because you don't have one to tell. Sorry.

[@xlerb2286]

You're right on. And throw in some grinding to pad out the hours. Too many games confuse grinding with content.

[@86fifty]

I appreciate how you took the time to explain the origins of the term "Cargo Cult" because I think it's definitely not popularly known, how WW2 Pacific theater impacted the people living there. We in America have a lot more contact with peoples and countries affected by the European theater, and a big part of the disconnect is how the GI's just up and left, and nobody thought about keeping lines of communication open... Rumors and superstitions arise in the absence of information.

[@Cluhappy]

Seemed like a strange choice to me though to depict the indigenous people as dogs. I'm not assigning malice to this decision, it just feels like a mistake.

[@86fifty]

@@Cluhappy Yeaaaaaah, I get that. Their depiction of the story isn't 100% of the way there in terms of sensitivity as it could be, but, I like to celebrate small steps.

[@liamodahl1205]

@@Cluhappy He was attempting to get people to follow along with his point about how some people think, that's all. His mascot is a dog, much like ZP's was an imp. Like you said, there isn't much malice in it.

[@DragonNexus]

​@@Cluhappy u feel that's better than a bunch of humans in grass skirts or similarly "tribal" garb. I figure it was just a neutral depiction based on the two main stars of the show.

[@Kumimono]

@@Cluhappy I think we can call that, Ludo-narrative discobiscuits.

[@gabrielcormier2096]

I am so burnt out on crafting mechanics. Just give the damn item I need! Not every tiny step has to be a f***in' project!

[@AzureKite]

@@Pump_Daddy_V_Swole Okay so that sounds like you've been playing Baldur's Gate 3 and the biggest reason as to why those are how they are is just because that's how it worked in Dungeons and Dragons and Larian was trying to adapt the system into the videogame. In pen and paper RPG those distinctions actually matter more than they do in the videogame.

[@Sorain1]

@@Pump_Daddy_V_Swole As AzureKite pointed out, your seeing the legacy of D&D being licensed there. Those things CAN matter, but often don't.

[@andyasbestos]

@@AzureKite Especially in a group that's way into role playing that flavour text makes a big difference. I once got away with using an offensive cantrip as an impromptu light source because of how the flavour text was worded. And having the bard try to improvise a buff-song is always great fun.

[@grzegorzbrzeczyszczykiewic563]

Minecraft has proven itself to be a curse upon our land. For how fun it individually is, it has ruined open world games.

[@DragonNexus]

Depends on the crafting for me. I've never got on with the Minecraft style where I have to stop what I'm doing to get more wood or rocks.

[@savedbybravado4382]

One big problem with games today is that they're mostly made by people that grew up as gamers and then go on to live and work with only games. A lot of classics were made by developers who had other lives outside of the game they created which gave them insights to life that devs today just won't get as they live and breathe through their hobby that is now work. It's a little incestual

[@hourglass1988]

This reminds me of some writing advice I got from a professor once. "If you want to be a writer major in anything BUT literature. It won't matter how technically good you are at writing if you don't have anything to write about."

[@Nugget111uh1]

Honestly? Yeah. I plan to live my life without worrying whether or not I make a game. If I do? Well good for me I guess! If I don't? Well, neither do most people. Maybe that's just me hearing the whole "most folks at their deathbed regret the things they didn't do" and realizing "y'know what? We're lucky if we do anything cool at all in our lifetime, so let's just not worry about what we coulda woulda shoulda and focus more on just enjoying this improv theater while it lasts." And if I do make a game along the way, with all my life experience, it'll feel a heck of a lot more genuine than if I powered through by all means necessary. Lots of things are better slow cooked, after all. Guess that's probably just my take, but I don't know.

[@KesSharann]

I have a coworker that cannot do basic math. Our paper timesheets are rows and columns of hours/overtime/vacation/sick/etc and days of the week, respectively. A boring timesheet is just 8 8 8 8 8 40. If you change that it breaks my coworker's brain. They know five 8's is 40 but not why. So if you suddenly have 8 8 7 8 8 and a 1 down in overtime, they have to ask for help to fill out the timesheet. Tell them something and they can repeat it but they don't know anything about that something. Tell them something that contradicts what they've heard before and they will still repeat the old something but they still have no clue why they are telling you you are wrong even when you can prove your statement with data and facts. "These two chemicals should never be mixed" except the chemical formula shows those two chemicals produce water, a salt, oxygen, and a bit of heat. You could mix those chemicals in front of them and my coworker will just deny you did that and continue to tell other people never to mix those chemicals. They are very susceptible to propaganda and cults.

[@JamesDavy2009]

Old mate appears to be dyscalculic and is definitely too far gone.

[@Daniel_WR_Hart]

These are the first people that will be replaced with AI if they do white collar work. On a similar note, I know people that think fans make air colder

[@toddoverholt4556]

​@@Daniel_WR_Hart It FEELS colder because it moves the air. It doesn't actually cool it.

[@Daniel_WR_Hart]

@@toddoverholt4556 more specifically it removes the thin layer of warm air around your skin

[@Electric0eye]

@@Daniel_WR_Hart ​Wow, I can't wait for this AI future to literally ruin everything just because it also replaces one or two stupid workers.

[@bubbasbigblast8563]

Focusing on the mechanics alone is part of the cargo cult problem, really: we see the exact same thing with game stories as well, where Souls Likes are all Grimdark, and shooters bounce between Medal of Honor herorics and Spec Ops: The Line cynicism. So, Cargo Cult mentality seeps into _everything,_ and where a game might be good even with unorginal story/graphics/mechanics individually, grouped together, they make games unplayable levels of dull even when the game is actually servicable.

[@Dorrovian]

Souls-likes are not all grimdark? Nioh and Wo Long are heroic historical fantasy, Lies of P is rather positive in its message, The Surge is tech horror, but still wasn't grimdark, first Lords of the Fallen was rather standard fantasy nowhere near grimdark (new one went into grimdark though heavily).

[@jurtheorc8117]

Even though only a semi-Soulslike, Clash: Artifacts of Chaos was very colorful and not really grimdark. The world's not here to be kind, or especially cruel, but it just is. There's semblances of early society building itself up, a stable central Town and rulership, even if there's only one (somewhat absurd) law, there is structure.. Helps that it's a Zeno Clash prequel, and therefore part of an already established world.

[@gwen9939]

@@Dorrovian Wo Long draws on mythology, has a parry and stance break system with Flashy combat. It's not a soulslike, it's a sekiro-like, so it doesn't really beat the allegations, and it does fall prey to cargo-cult thinking with its nonsensical, boring level layouts and forgettable story. Lies of P is iterating on the bloodborne formula, and going from victorian london vibes to steampunk nameless-european-city-that-also-dark-all-the-time, the comparison is pretty obvious. Lies of P _is_ good though, it understands how it's supposed to work and it has a cohesive, interesting worldbuilding narrative-wise, but in its level design it does from fromsoft classics that just aren't as interesting when they do them. Lords of the Fallen is straight up the best example of cargo-cult thinking in soulslikes. From narrative to atmosphere to mechanics it tries so hard to be dark souls without understanding what makes each of the elements in dark souls work in the transcendent manner they do.

[@Dorrovian]

@@gwen9939 All your points have no bearing on Lies of P and Lords of the Fallen not being grimdark, so I don't know why did you even post them. And Sekiro is souls-like, so is Wo Long. I would even say Wo Long is more souls-like than Sekiro.

[@boxhead6177]

Even with the Cargo Cult idea its the developers struggling to match a design brief... a "Design Brief" a publisher excutive dump onto a developer with nothing more than lose terms and screen/mechanic grabs of other titles like a Frankenstein patchwork horror. Like Jedi Fallen Order by Respawn completely contradicted the brief that EA / Lucasfilm dumped on them, they were told "Uncharted with a Smuggler character"... and they said No, we want to make Jedi game. It was one of the rare EA Star Wars games that actually made bank. The Souls-like mechanics however were Respawn's pitch to EA/Lucasfilm to allow them to keep making the Jedi game... cause they went against brief. Alien Isolation was another game where the developers went completely against the "Design Brief" for an Action FPS like Doom, and created one of the most suspenseful horror games around that people still fail to imitate or assimilate.

[@Chimaelstrom]

I think the issue lies in that the shot-callers are not, in fact, at all aware of the ins and outs of game design. The people in charge of these projects are businessmen, not developers; they have no interest in, or understanding of, the art of game design. This also applies to a lot of films/movies/anything else produced by large companies. This is where the disease truly infects the works we see. Executive meddling, aka 'cargo cult' level of understanding paired with big egos that insist on steering the ship just because they sign the paychecks.

[@LikeACrouton]

I'm not gonna give Flintlock credit for "moving the soulslike in a new direction" after Another Crab's Treasure dropped and did that bit better.

[@mememaster695]

Flintlock moved the soulslike in the direction of being bland and boring. Another Crab's Treasure was made by someone who actually cares about the quality of their art.

[@adaniels15]

@@LikeACrouton Yeah I kinda did a mental double take at that line. Flintlock just felt like a low budget god of war with bonfires and soul runs.

[@soundrogue4472]

Don't forget the fact that Flintlock is just a cargo cult.

[@soundrogue4472]

@@adaniels15 EXACTLY! I'm not crazy! I'm not the only one who noticed this!!!

[@AKDot98]

Ehhhh, Flintlock seems to be doing more with its combat/progression systems and movement mechanics than pretty much any soulslike that's come before it. Another crabs treasure (from the little I've played) is souls with color, a decent jump and easy buttons.

[@MidniteCathedral]

Yeah, it's definitely infected indie games too. Everyone's trying to make a card-battler hybrid since Slay the Spire hit it big.

[@todesziege]

It always seems like ~50% of indie games are just the same game with slightly different visuals/story. Currently it's deckbuilders, next week it will be something else.

[@kirinoa]

those people just want to make a quick buck. They're not designers in an artistical way, but in a purely commercial way. Design in general is haunted by copycats and creative rot. Walk into (women's) boutiques, car dealerships, general electronic stores among others. Everything is so similar, there's no sense of individuality and creativity. It's just "copy the thing that is popular and change it a little bit, so we don't get sued but are still mentally associated to that popular thing." This is so boring and tiring.

[@Smileyrat]

This is not just a game movie thing. I've seen it in movies, writing, business, online discussions, and I'm sure its in even more. This is just seems to be how people act when they try to create something without either the skill needed to understand it or the interest in even trying. And I, personally, think it is a big part of why sturgeons law exists ("90% of everything is crap").

[@mirrorsandstuff]

I'm not sure that Assassin's Creed was RPGified for cargo-cult reasons. My feel was that they wanted to push folks towards microtransactions - the XP boosters in Origins, for example.

[@Yous0147]

It's both. His point is that when devs don't get the time to innovate, and they have to find ways to earn money through etc. DLC and also justify it to the higher ups, if they haven't already demanded it to be so, then you get cargo-cult thinking where you copy RPG-elements etc.

[@jonathanhill6064]

Why i stopped playing new ones and went back to Ezio and Black Flag. If it ain't broke, don't try and fix it. COD has been the same game since number two in 2005 and it works. The way devs are pushed by publishers to "make it like this' falls back on new devs who think they gotta be like something else to get published has turned the industry into a vicious cycle of stuff I just don't even want to try to play because I've played it before.

[@aerrae5608]

@@Yous0147 I feel like AC2's rpg elements were fine and relatively unimportant but nice additions if you wanted to engage with them. Unity goes too far however and it just hasn't stopped.

[@AzureKite]

Yeah but they wanted to push towards that because other games did it and made a lot of money doing it.

[@Hurtdeer]

I mean you're right, but I'm also pretty sure a ubisoft higher up looked at The Witcher 3's success and said Do That Right Now (incidentally, i hated it in that game too. I like the Witcher in spite of it's annoying obsession with explicit enemy levels)

[@WhiteFangofWar]

I used to do this all the time in my writing. I'd see a particularly powerful bit of phrasing out of Matthew Stover or James Luceno and imitate it to limited success. Even years ago, I saw a video from an industry veteran who was growing very concerned that the only metric being used by devs to determine if a game should or should not get the green light is 'Where is your data?'. That is, 'Where is your concrete proof that this will make profit?', and generally the only proof that is accepted is that it is a remake or sequel or copy of a game that *was* commercially successful. This is how limited the funder's understanding of why something in a game works and what doesn't is, and it's probably only gotten worse since.

[@joesjoeys]

In a way, those "Wheres your data" types have often helped create new, amazing studios and helped shutter old outdated studios where the penny pinchers are the main ones in charge and not anyone with an actual creative vision. Unfortunately, there are some companies who make this their bread and butter (looking at you Ubisoft).

[@Disthron]

It's because they are money people, who have likely had all the creativity boiled out of them through schooling and work life. In finance and productivity software, that kind of thing can be very helpful... and it dose work to a certain extent in creative fields... for a while.

[@willw6504]

To be fair to the first point, that is how you learn to write better. Imitating a piece of writing you love, learning about how their phrasing works, and how you can use those techniques with your own words - that's the assimilate and iterate part.

[@WhiteFangofWar]

@@willw6504 Thanks! That's been my biggest problem as a writer- I generally know what I want to depict, planning out scenes well in advance, but finding powerful language and phrasing to forcefully grab reader's attention like the authors I mentioned takes a lot of work. All my favorites authors do that very well.

[@crediblesalamander8056]

​@@WhiteFangofWar hah. i have almost the opposite problem. i love writing disparate scenes and fiddling around with creative imagery and turns of phrase, but i absolutely cannot force myself to sit down and actually plan out anything resembling an actual story, even though i've watched and read plenty to try to learn how. in video game terms, it's like being less of a game director type and more of a level designer.

[@RedKincaid]

It really sucks for people who actually enjoy these mechanics when they're done well in a game they work well within. It kind of feels like when you really like a food, lets say habanero for example, and suddenly every fast food place and grocery store is full of habanero-flavored foods. The problem is, most of them are bad and the vast majority don't actually tastes like habanero at all but are just hot and orange at the same time, trying to imitate habanero without actually understanding what it is or why it tastes good. Then, because of the overwhelming amount of pseudo-habanero food on the market, it becomes much harder to find food that is actually any good or tastes like the thing you like. This is what it feels like for RPGs to me.

[@This-Was-Sparta]

Yeah, my personal mantra for stuff like this when working on a game is: "Can I justify the inclusion of this mechanic beyond "Cuz that's what other games've done before."?" If not, then there's probably some more thinking work to be done. Time and time again I'm surprised by how easy it is to fall into this trap.

[@Yous0147]

I think sometimes it's a balancing act. I've tried my hardest not to fall into cargo-cult thinking when making games exactly because I want games to be purposful and meaningful. But, it's incredibly difficult to be a trail blazer. There's nothing more disheartning than finding out mechanics you thought were novel and would work, don't seem to work and very likely other devs have tried it and found the same conclusion before you. Sometimes, it's important to go with the flow and feel where thegame really lies.

[@This-Was-Sparta]

@@Yous0147 Yeah, that's also very true. Coming up with new, interesting things is pretty damn hard. I'm also very guilty of that, trying too hard to get out of the "imitate" step of the learning process. In which case the perfectionist need to make something novel/interesting usually leads to... nothing being done...

[@UlshaRS]

Wanting to add XYZ function but remembering you don't even have a proof of concept done, let alone tree for all these useless baubles to hang on😂

[@635574]

You shoild be asking "Does this improve the core loop of the game?"

[@Kumimono]

That ain't a bad thing. But, adding "so I'm gonna do it like This", helps.

[@caclarkjr14]

1 word: CRAFTING How many games have I ALMOST really, really liked, except they had to shoehorn in a clumsy, ham-fisted, pace-killing crafting mechanic because that's what was trendy at the time? Alien Isolation and The Last of Us immediately pop into my mind. "Hey guys! What if instead of sprinkling a small number of health packs, molotovs, noise makers and smoke grenades around the map, we instead pepper the game world with 10x as many alcohol bottles, rags, piles of nails, batteries, bundles of wire, and lead pipes, and then let the player pause the game and fumble around in an awkward menu or 2 or 3 to MAKE a health pack, molotov, noise maker, or smoke grenade? Brilliant!"

[@mittensfastpaw]

Ya, I'm beyond sick of every single game I ever play having crafting. Then on top of it doing it poorly. So it takes forever to find stuff, get it all in the inventory, the weight limits, be near the right table, crafting X amount, putting the spares away because of weight again, putting it on the bar again. Then finally play the game!

[@ferinzz]

If they were forcing you to make a choice between health pack or another item that would be fine. You're a scavenger and trying to make the best choice with limited resources. I more often see a game tell you that you have a limited amount of arrow. However an unlimited amount of crafting resources. Oh and you can craft in the middle of the fight.

[@Sniperbear13]

with last of us, there is at least Context. it leans into people(the enemy characters) not just leaving all those Valuable weapons and supplies around all willy nilly, as opposed to leaving around bottles and such which might not have as much use at first glance. it would be really stupid if you would see things like Molotov's just sitting around on shelves in the corners of rooms. so why doesn't the enemy do the same as you the Player character and take them? well because they are much more armed and supplied then you in LoU. they don't see a point in collecting every random might be useful later thing around when they have a large supply of things already.

[@Cathowl]

God, I even LIKE drafting in my games, but it's often so jammed in and unnecessary and badly implemented, just for the sake of having it? It's very frustrating. Don't just put crafting in a game because "well you gotta have crafting!" put crafting in a game because you *want* crafting in your game and thought of a fun way to do it!

[@Dorrovian]

The way to start liking crafting again is to play Atelier games... and then suffer in other games with bland crafting again after seeing possibilities with its alchemy.

[@StrakBlue]

As a veteran indie dev within the RPG Maker community, this is common among first-time devs too. Oh, my game needs an ATB system with QTE's. And crafting. And fishing. And farming. And base building and a romance system. Basically if Hades met Stardew Valley met Asura's Wrath. It's very common.

[@ConsarnitTokkori]

the fact that "that doesn't narrow things down a whole lot" is a fitting answer to the title worries me

[@TheKyleBrah]

Blame Devs for Copypasting Mechanics: ❎ Blame Greedy Execs/Publishers for Copypasting Mechanics: ✅

[@Dorrovian]

I mean, you cannot really blame greedy execs/publishers for indie games doing copy paste.

[@Yous0147]

People tend to think that we've explored so much of the game mechanical landscape that most of what we do is going to be derivatives of that, and that's what we see mirrored in our games and media in general, but that's not true at all. In reality, the reason why we end up copying, and thereby sometimes also cargo-culting, is because trail blazing new mechanics is super difficult, and it's difficult in 2 ways. First, finding, refining and formalising a new set of mechanics and contexts takes years of development and headache, quite literally. Many times, you have to cut through the same shrubs other developers have gone through for then to find out that your mechanic ends up mirroring what is already available, and many other times it simply just doesn't work, which is even more disheartining. Second, making people realize, understand and teaching them your novel game approach is also a massive hurdle. Games, especially now, have strong foundational knowledge and intuition build up by both players and developers. There are expactations, ways of doing things, such as pressing a button to jump in a sidescroller as upposed to up in a fighter, card games utilising health and power on creature cards, if not one number that represents them, etc. etc. These foundations are super difficult to turn upside down, but that's what's required for people to truly make their own games.

[@Ornithopter470]

Something to keep in mind is that "what works, works. What doesn't work, dies." Just because a concept is novel does not make it valuable.

[@velemamba260]

This also mingles with the issue mentioned in the video of games now being so expensive to make. AAA games especially are so big and the industry at this point so broken that a studio can't afford a failure. If a game fails then the studio could crash along with it.

[@hourglass1988]

Very much related I work in games in the physical space, I run an escape room. I build, and for the most part design, all of my own props for the games. Its easy to make something where "put the specific thing(s) in the specific place(s) and key drops out of box/door unlocks". Why? Because there is a million online tutorials on how to do it, the physical equipment is cheap and readily available, and I personally have built things that do it dozens of times now. That's why so many escape rooms are filled with these things. So If I want to build something really new. A prop that works in a way or does a thing that I've never seen or heard of before then guess what? There's no tutorials, there's no online forums to help figure it out, there's no kits or parts online to order, its all me from the ground up. Sometimes that does mean weeks of work on something only to figure out its just not going to work how I want. I come away with new knowledge but nothing else to show for the hours of work and hundreds of dollars sank into it. Though when it DOES work I get the satisfaction of someone coming into our little tiny town and being blown away that in the dozens of escape rooms they've done they've never seen a thing in a room that does that thing. Of course the tried and true props are cheaper, faster, and by extension safer. I don't fault anyone for an aversion to innovation. If its your livelihood its risky.

[@Yous0147]

@@hourglass1988 This is really amazing insight, thank you for sharing! I think it's people and businesses like you who really care for their craft that end up being remembered the fondest

[@koboldfan3238]

The 'Cargo Cult' version of video games has always been around. Just look how when 2D fighting games got popular in the 90s, dozens of companies tried there hand at making a fighting game and failed. Even when a fighting game was unique like Primal Rage a monster fighter, the higher ups had the developers make the sequel become a human vs human fighter, as the popular games had human characters.

[@grogpod_roguelike_podcast]

True, it's really more of a symptom of "fast follow" marketing practices that happen to affect the gaming industry

[@CardGameCrypt]

Pretty sure Primal Roar 2 was human vs human because the 2 monkey characters that punched and kicks were the most popular ones...or at least thats what a video essay on the internet told me, surely they would not tell me something that is false!

[@ShikayHawken]

It also happened when most 2D fighters dev trying to make 3D fighters cause Tekken & Virtua Fighters getting more popular in the early days.

[@koboldfan3238]

@@CardGameCrypt When Primal Rage tried the competitive scene, those players used the apes since they control like the humans in the games they are used to playing. But casual arcade gamers mainly picked Talon the raptor and the toy sales had the dinosaurs sell more than the apes. So the choice was who to appease, the Competitive Scene by using humans like the other popular games or the Casual Scene that just likes monsters.

[@roadkill_52]

It's a problem of capitalism

[@Allcyon]

Former Dev here. You nailed it. And, not only is iteration no longer the goal, but it's become the ever elusive carrot that the execs dangle. You can iterate for the sequel! If there is one. If this one sells. And you'll put in these mechanics to make it sell, because it worked for *that* game. And to some extent...they're right. People buy it. And of course the forced mechanics are shit, people complain about it, and when it comes time to green light the sequel (provided you still have a job) the argument is that you CAN'T iterate off anything that's based off that old system. People hated it. We're gonna build from the ground up! By stealing the mechanic from this other game...

[@nicklager1666]

Hehe the indigenous Ludos at around 1:12 made me think of the Yoshis in Yoshis Island. Damnit time to boot up the old SNES again after i finish watching DD of course.

[@mrshmuga9]

Now I’ve got the underground theme in my head.

[@StephanePare]

I find it interesting that you started with BotW's success, because it's not merely a cargo plane that's been replicated wrong. It's also example of good iteration. Before BotW, there was one player having great success in the open world genre: Bestesda. Lots of people tried regurgitating their formula, trying larger maps or adding more mountains, just adding more of everything, and it wasn't automatically better. (Looking at you Witcher 1-3) Nintendo understood that successful open world games were mostly successful exploration games. They allowed their designers time and resources to put their own spin on everything that would make the place fun to explore. AAA studios working at breakneck pace rarely take this time, they gotta release faster and faster. Struggling indy studios who blew through their kickstarted budget an need to release something before going bankrupt don't necessarily have that luxury either.

[@The_Mr._Biscuit]

So, I've heard the term "Cargo Cult" a few times in the past, and I could never figure out what it meant. So, thanks for that, you beautiful host.

[@arlandblack1139]

Might want to look it up in Wikipedia. This isn't really what "cargo cult" traditionally means, it's a useful abstraction of the concept made to make a point. Traditional definition is like: "religious groups characterized by the belief that material wealth (such as money or manufactured goods) can be obtained through ritual worship." Usually involves a messiah figure preaching about how it's the end times or something, but come and do as he says and there will be goodies for everyone. Edit: turns out the definition used in the video (near as I can tell) owes its origin to Richard Feynman adopting the concept for his "Cargo Cult Science," lecture from Feynman's 1974 commencement address at the California Institute of Technology.

[@militantnerd2512]

I definitely agree. One of the most aggravating things in modern videogames is the tendency of copying something without understanding WHY and for what purpose it was included by original devs. The worst offender is ignoring objective problems with balance or bugs, because it makes the game "hardcore" and everyone complaining just needs to GIT GUD. And yes, such devs do exist.

[@21solomonspace]

Crash 4 was super guilty of that, especially the 100% run.

[@carlschrappen9712]

​@@21solomonspaceWhat did Crash 4 do?

[@21solomonspace]

@@carlschrappen9712 Remember when the Crash remakes came out, people started saying they were the "Dark Souls of Platformers" Well, the devs of 4 took those comments to heart and completely shat on what made the trilogy work for the sake of trying to be "hardcore". For examples, they made the level design alot more precise, made levels much longer, and i mean much longer. Added hidden crates OUTSIDE the view of the player in multiple levels, as well as other collectibles required for 100%. Made one of the true ending conditions be beating EVERY STAGE in the game without dying ONCE on each stage while collecting EVERY crate. and in Crash 4, some levels can have over 500 crates when in the trilogy it was rare to see a level go above 100! Theres plently of other insane issues with the game like padding (you are required to replay every stage in the AGAIN in N.Verted mode for 100%, and the repeat stages all have their OWN collectibles)

[@locuas5601]

That reminds me when there were some devs criticizing Elden Ring for its UI and lack of Quest Log. Something that was actually well liked by the rest of the playerbase

[@RAFMnBgaming]

it's even more aggravating when the original devs do that.

[@clvr51]

The blandification of AAA games is definitely a pet peeve of mine, especially when they're super acclaimed like GOW.

[@stanislavkimov2779]

I'm. not sure if they are supper acclaimed by real gamers. Because new GoW is a hollow oscar bait with a lot of expensive cutscenes and mediocre gameplay (in my opinion). And the plot/atmosphere/characters are not even good, in my opinion, I don't see sincerity, I don't feel any emotion to remember it.

[@cosmicspacething3474]

The story is genuinely great, but the gameplay does look kinda mid…

[@andrewdreasler428]

Wow, this has really opened my eyes, as an Engineer. I work on Programmable Logic Controllers (also known as PLCs, these are the 'brains' of modern machines), and I just realized I've been following that Jazz Man's advice without ever meeting him. I've been looking at the widely varying programming on very similar machines (Rotate the sample, add heat, check for leaks [human operation]) and out of "engineering laziness" I said to myself, "Self, why do I need to maintain all these programs that to the same thing in different ways, when I could make ONE program to do everything the same way, and then just 'abandon' the old code?" In trying to combine all the minor features and small differences between the machines I have gone through: IMITATE: Rewriting the code from the different machines to work on the one brand of PLC I am standardizing to. ASSIMILATE: Adjust the code so that all the disparate parts will work in harmony, streamline the core functions. And I am currently in the early stages of ITERATE: Go over the code I've written, find areas to improve, learn from the mistakes I made, add features that were not conceived of in the previous iteration.

[@eneekmot]

I call this "the long shadow of World of Warcraft" because in the late 2000s everyone lost their minds and started making MMOs. In the early 2010s it turned into Farmville and mobile games, in the late 2010s it was metaverse stuff, and for a while now it has been Fortnite/Destiny/Overwatch clones. It's a combination of: 1) Greedy showrunners who will not be satisfied with anything less than a billion dollars in revenue. 2) Studios being forced to chase the trends of the last billion-dollar success to try to get there. ("Red ocean strategy? What's that?") 3) Studios not being allowed the time and budget to iterate and refine their spin-off because the showrunners don't want to miss the bubble they imagine exists. This has resulted in some spectacular failures like Anthem and Redfall. An abyss of wasted talent and broken dreams.

[@maxcoseti]

In the 90s it was Doom clones

[@Sniperbear13]

ah the days of the wow clones. what a time that was, and it was also crazy how many thought they could dethrone WoW too.

[@boxhead6177]

Destiny was so bad at RPG loot mechanics, Activision sent Blizzard in to help Bungie sort out the mess. Blizzard helped and then told Activision... yeah, they don't understand what we told them. And Activision cut them loose. Now Sony bought them and Bungie is now running around telling developers the wrong thing... and that is how Concord exists and 3 other games got squashed.

[@Llortnerof]

@@maxcoseti And after they copied the next big thing but never understood why it worked. Manager trends are real, and most of them are stupid shit.

[@gogopowerangers735]

and indie game people do the same crap...

[@superbodaciousflibbertigib8139]

Quick bit of feedback for the ads: the music at the end of design delve is very relaxing and I like to listen to it as I think about the video or search for something else to watch. The ads interrupt the tone of the music, but I do usually watch or listen to them before clicking off of the video. I would personally enjoy if it played after the song or before as I do watch both, but I understand I’m just a poll of one and that it’s hard to please everyone. I hope my food for thought might be helpful in the future.

[@DJWoozie]

0:14 LUDO AND EVERYONE ELSE STOP THAT

[@thatjeff7550]

I don't think Stardew Valley is guilty of cargo-culting. SV was more of a "Why hasn't Harvest Moon dropped another sequel by now? Screw it! I'll do it myself!!"

[@kevingriffith6011]

I'm pretty sure he's saying that *other* games are cargo culting off of Stardew Valley. There are so, so many indie and above farming sims that came out after Stardew that basically do the same thing but slightly different.

[@vulkendov5210]

"I'm definitely looking at something behind you, Stardew Valley. Don't get paranoid."

[@ChrisMattern-oh6wx]

Actually, Stardew Valley is "We don't have the rights to the Harvest Moon name even though we made the games? Guess we'll call our next sequel Stardew Valley then!"

[@MizunoKetsuban]

​@@ChrisMattern-oh6wxEr, no, that's Story of Seasons.

[@MrTaekon]

@@ChrisMattern-oh6wx I don't think ConcernedApe was involved in Harvest Moon development. He was just a fan.

[@SolaScientia]

Aggro Crab pretty much nailed Imitate, Assimilate, and Iterate with Another Crab's Treasure. They understand what makes the Souls games work and then did their own twist on the genre that works really well with that game. I'm complete shit at parrying in Souls games, but parrying with the shells in Another Crab's Treasure feels amazing to do even though I haven't fully gotten the timing pinned down. The devs also know how to joke around without overdoing it (the Sands Between got a hearty laugh from me) as well. They make references without the references becoming the game's whole identity (a mistake other devs have made). Over-saturation of specific genres is a definite truth. Even loving Another Crab's Treasure I'm still taking taking a break from it and Shadow of the Erdtree because of Souls (and Soulslike) fatigue. I've been getting back into Ghostwire: Tokyo and I honestly can't remember why I even stopped playing it in the first place (something something Elden Ring, maybe). It's nice going back to completely different genre of game for a proper palate cleanse. As far as cargo-cult thinking, yeah, I've experienced that, but I try to be aware of it. I learn by imitating alarmingly well, but then what happens is I might get an idea in my head about something just because of how I've seen others play or do it. It worked well for playing flute in school though, since I could listen to a recording of the piece I was doing for an audition and nearly perfectly imitate it until I got fully comfortable. Works less well for gaming and such. I got into Bloodborne by watching someone else play the whole game. While initially I did copy the play style I'd been watching, I very quickly realized that what I saw didn't actually work for me and how I play. For one, the faster and more aggressive combat clicked me with me in a way it did not click for the other player until he was a good way through the game. It's also one thing to just watch someone play and try to copy it, and then quite another to actually play the game for yourself and learn it properly. It's along that vein why I can't watch another person I normally watch play Dark Souls 3. She went from DS1 to DS3, but she retained the muscle memory from DS1, so she's incredibly slow to react and do things and it drives me absolutely potty. Mind you, she's not at all bad at the game; she just does things that personally drive me nuts. I can't talk much trash, because my muscle memory is mostly tied to Bloodborne even now and I'll regularly get killed in the Souls games and Elden Ring because I forgot to heal up and got way to greedy.

[@Mikedagraaff]

I was talking about this yesterday while trying to explain why I'm honestly excited for the re-release of Star Wars Bounty Hunter. No open world, no rpg mechanics, no DLC. Just a simple shooty game that will be over in a few hours. None of the stuff that every game tries to do these days.

[@2400dimension]

Just think if they made one today...( looks at Disney and starts to sweat)

[@admcleo]

I'm reminded of a line from the Star Trek: TNG episode Darmok, "The situation is analogous to understanding the grammar of a language but none of the vocabulary." And I think it works just as well here. And while it takes the form of RPG mechanics in games or needless romantic interests in movies it is a grim reality in larger productions today.

[@SamGarcia]

"You're infected, we need to amputate your legs" dog's legs are literally detached floating bits

[@grant187]

All loot will be color coded WHITE, GREEN, BLUE, PURPLE, GOLD/ORANGE, until the end of time, and you’ll like it!

[@zoltanstudios]

Don't forget yellow ledges!

[@Llortnerof]

I'd argue that some level of consistency in that is actually useful. But there needs to be a point to it. If the colour coding serves no actual gameplay purpose, then leave it out.

[@LaughingMan1980]

And health bars will almost always be GREEN/RED, and Mana/Magic bars BLUE. Players and NPC's will have an outline or name in BLUE/GREEN text with Enemies and Opponents in RED.

[@SystemZ3RO]

This has been my biggest gripe with Metroidvaina games. As a kid, I LOVED Super Metroid. Beat it multiple times, explored every nook and cranny, and spent days on end examining what made the game so great compared to first Metroid and Metroid 2. Everything from the level design, music, exploration, environment, controls, and equipment all worked together in harmony to tell a story in a game where the only lines of dialogue are during the intro. Castlevaina: Symphony of the Night came along and while it didn't expand upon what Super Metroid did, added its own flare to set it apart from it's inspiration while still bringing together all the elements that worked for Super Metroid. It made me want to make my own game inspired by it. But when the term Metroidvaina was coined, alot of games under that genre felt lacking. You had outliers like Hollow Knight that understood the assignment, alot of games fell into this cargo cult mindset. Make a 2D open world platformer with combat and call it a day. The levels weren't part of the game so much as they were just set dressing that your character stood on to fight an enemy. Music that felt generic and did little to add to the mood. Exploration that leads nowhere, equipment that is bog standard and felt like they were obligatory more than necessary. To this day i cannot bring myself to make a game that inspired me to be a game dev solely because it will be lost in a sea of copy cats that are trying to mimic more than innovate.

[@AnotherDuck]

For me, if a metroidvania doesn't have good exploration, it's a non-starter. I don't mind so much if the powerups are generic, as long as they work well within the game. Art and music aren't that important either, from playing a ton of indie games, many back in the Flash era. However, those things add to the polish if you want the game to be great rather than just good. The important part is still the exploration, which also means the movement has to feel good. At least in my opinion.

[@RobertStoll]

I began noticing the most modern incarnation of this with Palworld, and that entire genre of "Well we got/generated a bunch of unity assets and some basic systems, let's slapdash together the best ones for SEO"

[@iller3]

Palworld worked though because having Systems on top of Systems is literally what Rimworld and Ark's core replayability was built around (the 2 games Palworld copied the hardest)

[@Sotanaht01]

The thing is, Palworld is a basically a counterexample. Yes, they take all the best ideas from their favorite games (and directly admit the intention to do so), but it WORKS. Not only financially, but it's also pretty good (maybe over-hyped but I still liked it).

[@soundrogue4472]

@@Sotanaht01 Uh... not so financially actually; Microsoft is covering their butts on that end. A half of a million a month. Then Sony and Palworld are working together.

[@Cube2000]

While you can certainly argue that the “cute not-pokemon with guns in an ARK-like world” was a cynical ploy for attention, I do think some of the gameplay additions (simple pokemon-like capturing, workers automating the tedious harvesting/building aspects, various useful tech that unlocks early) helped alleviate a lot of the annoyances that plague the survival crafting genre.

[@Yous0147]

The sad thing about Palworld is that they actually struck gold with part of that game (the interactions you have with the pals in general). It's been one of the only games, except the ones I know I like, that has genuinely surprised me and made me play it semi-regularly. There's still a lot of potential there for prospective devs, but they will have to understand what makes it tick.

[@jackmcallister1256]

A lot of indie games now are souls likes, metroidvanias, or vampire survivor clones at the moment. Yeah some are fun, but you get tired of playing the same thing over and over again. As for the larger publishers, I just say Fortnight. They are constantly jumping to be the next big thing without realizing why people are attracted to it. They keep making games for "everyone" yet no one really loves them.

[@crackedemerald4930]

tbf vampire survivor likes are probably pretty easy to make

[@Dorrovian]

No no, you forgot indie roguelike, indie roguelike deck builders and indie farming simulators. There is reason Stardew Valley was there next to Dark Souls as constantly copied example.

[@grogpod_roguelike_podcast]

Roguelike games are kind of a poster child of this problem, since the turnaround time on development is pretty low. Wanting to ride the wave of a big success with a "fast follow" project did create a lot of shovelware Survivor-likes, but it did also give us some really interesting and unique experiences that are definitely more in the "iterate" space. Games like Holocure, Halls of Torment, or Boneraiser Minions push that part of the genre in a good direction, I think. Slay the Spire did create an entire new genre with a zillion copycats of dubious quality, but it did give us Balatro, Inscryption, and Monster Train. I think the key is to be patient. Over time, the good quality games will rise to the top and the middling soulless clones will be long forgotten.

[@Dorrovian]

@@grogpod_roguelike_podcast While I mostly agree with your post, Slay the Spire didn't create a genre. Roguelike deck builders existed long before it, there were even "analog" roguelike deck builders in card games, board games, even Magic the gathering had Booster Draft mode. Hearthstone had draft mode too.

[@Jigglysaint]

Oh don't get me started on the blatant misuse of "Metroidvania". Now I actually love exploration platformers and always look forward to seeing new ones appear. However, a lot of games are tagged with "Metroidvania" where they are clearly NOT. One of the charms of a Metroidvania is the backtracking. That is to say that each area is interconnected and contain various obstacles that at the very least, pique your curiosity as to what could be on the other side. But all too often people complain about "oh no I hate backtracking" so you enter an area, clear it out, find the special item, go to the next temple or what have you, find the double jump and just keep going from there. But I've seen games touted as a Metroidvania which are clearly linear based and might as well be a Super Mario game. Anyway, I noticed that a certainly three letter term did not appear once in this video. Now I'm starting to wonder if the criticism of that three letter term is in fact, a criticism of the Cargo Cult mentality. Another thing that is added in because another game did it well, but completely lacking all nuance and understanding of why it works when it works. Creative bankruptcy is creative bankruptcy no matter what the gimmick, or mechanic copied. Actually that does remind me of Suicide Squad, which the movie hastily added in character leitmotifs based on older songs only for the sake that another movie did the same thing first.

[@bbqR0ADK1LL]

I think most games are lacking a director with a cohesive vision, or at least one who is empowered to have a vision. Look at a game like Metal Gear Solid V, it wasn't even finished but you could see how Kojima had a vision for how all the different elements tied together. You started off with a basic kit, you weren't really able to just snipe targets & approach every mission the same way. Once you acquired a sniper rifle, if you did start taking out everyone from long distance, the enemies would catch on & start wearing helmets. If you just ran in every time, they would start wearing body armour. The game encouraged you to mix up your tactics, thus keeping the gameplay fresh even though you were often infiltrating the same military bases multiple times. Then, many hours into the game, you acquired the ability to recruit soldiers. This gave you a new goal when you saw an A or S tier enemy - don't just kill them, but extract them to work on your base & feed into a system of getting even more weapons or equipment. The systems all worked tightly together, it wasn't just a mish mash of things that were successful in other games. Compare that with Far Cry. In FC3, a wild cat or some animal would sometimes be prowling near a base you were trying to infiltrate & come into contact with the enemy soldiers. They would begin fighting & multiple soldiers would go down in the process. It was a result of the games systems working in a way that would randomly create hilariously chaotic moments. In FC4, it was clear that the devs didn't really understand what made this entertaining. Now you were able to throw some bait & a wild cat would just spawn out of nowhere to start attacking enemy soldiers. It was no longer the game systems creating random chaos, just another tool in your arsenal. These moments were now commonplace, they didn't entertain in the same way. AAA games have a lot of budget & therefore a lot of risk behind them. This often means trying to create something safe, something that will please everyone. Copying successful mechanics seems like a safe move, which is why it gets done so much. That's why indies tend to have more original ideas, or at least bigger leaps in iteration. Every now & then a big game comes along that takes a risk but it succeeds because there is someone with a vision for what the game is going to be. We've learned from the aftermath of Anthem that AAA games are often just a mess of assets & systems, with devs trying to bash them together & create a game out of them. They don't even know what they're trying to create. Without a cohesive vision, you might luck into something that sort of works, but you're never going to create the next gaming masterpiece.

[@Comicsluvr]

While I admit that I'm likely guilty of this, I wish to make a point: STOP using the phrase 'Something-like!' If you want to break the cycle of 'rinse, repeat, fail' then stop comparing every game to a very small set of games!

[@Fort_MaximusYT]

I don’t even think it’s just individual mechanics. It’s entire GENRES. Concord, The Finals, Overwatch, Deadlock, all the same competitive hero shooter. Games that play it safe with hyper-generic genres are doomed to either be forgotten or hated.

[@minecraftiangenetics]

This video and so many others on Second Wind are great examples of not just good games journalism, but good journalism in general. You perfectly described a trend in gaming that's been bothering me lately - the soulless (or Soul-full, lol) copying of popular aesthetics and mechanics even when they don't seem to add much to the gaming experience - and then you broke it down further by tying it to larger trends in human psychology and creative endeavors in general. I never would have expected someone to loop in examples from World War 2 and jazz music of all places to explain an annoying behavior in game development, but I was pleasantly surprised that you did. This video itself feels emblematic of your thesis: tying together all of these disparate ideas into one video to explain this one trend must have taken quite a bit of contemplation and iteration. I think the end result was worth the effort.

[@RedEarth20XDX]

Reviewers and content creators talk about flintlock like it's the next best souls like. But gamers seem to think it's utter trash. I dont know who to believe.

[@ARStudios2000]

Well Yahtzee hated it so there's that. You form your own opinion, bud, nobody knows your tastes better than you.

[@ChrisPatti]

I love the fact that you're touting Flintlock as an example of trying something new while simultaneously Yahtzee is downing it something fierce. Speaks to the intillectual honesty of Second Wind IMO. DEFINITELY not speaking with one voice!

[@MegaZeta]

........your friend probably put the markers down because he knew _you_ knew the mechanics of the fight, and he was doing something he knew would help, since those markers are helpful to people who know the mechanics of the fight

[@SimnaibnSind]

Another issue, I think, is that people with more of a technological mindset (let's call them "techbros") tend to look at things as problems to be solved and approach those things as sorts of games in themselves. This leads to game creation being a question of "how do we solve the game problem?". Game creation is no longer a matter of creativity/expression but of solution.

[@SirBanana1992]

my favorite type of design that I see get ignored by many of the big ambitious industries is "games that keep it simple". I'm one of the biggest fan and admirer of Monster Hunter you might find out there but even so, sometimes I just wanna sit back and play without having to think about what I wanna do next or how I'm gonna do it. In Monster Hunter I'd think about my gear choice, my weapon, my inventory prep, the materials I need to acquire, the environment I'm going into, what else could show up, etc. Tons of time spent on prep and menuing that I could otherwise be spending in the action. But sometimes I want to just boot, hit play and beat up what's in front of me, I want to know that the new item I got is just a better version of what I had before, I want to run through a linear map just clearing the enemies along the way, I want my fighting options to boil down to "beat it, don't get beat", I want the game to be split in small digestible levels. I see lots of modern games try to build complex combat systems or randomized equipment with various random pools of stats and effects/elements of set making or expansive world maps with many markers of things to do and it just sometimes eventually gets exhausting always interacting with the menus more than with the game. Again I don't hate every game that does it, but I don't want simple games to be left behind in the dust and I feel that these execs see these complex systems as keeping player retention or popular systems that they must include in their games to extend playtime or meet quotas. Maybe it's fine if I'm done with the game after 15 hours.

[@Flying5167]

Totally agree. I wish there was a version of Borderlands where all of the stats were hidden. Get new gun, try new gun, be surprised. Spending a ton of time looking at menus and stats isn't fun. You can breath better when some things are hidden or abstracted (ie., just have rarity labels)

[@adaroben1104]

This

[@roadkill_52]

That's why I love Atari 2600 games to this day. You just boot them and have a nice time. Since it have a lot of limitations, the devs had to focus on what makes a game fun, without any bells and whistles. That leads to a very enjoyable and honest experience, imo.

[@GeriatricMillennialGamerDude]

This has been a problem forever and everyone has brought up great examples but one of them that drives me crazy (and not enough people talk about) is Quick Time Events. The only game I have ever enjoyed with QTEs was the original God Of War. They seemed to flow with the scene and made me feel powerful and involved. Ever since then, whenever I see them, they feel like a pale imitation of that. I'm not saying God Of War created QTEs but it was the only time I felt they were well done (and the first time I'd ever seen them).

[@emiliano.canton]

Tomb Raider, one of my favorite franchises, has been stuck of this for the last three main games. It sacrificed a lot of its own identity to bloat the games with systems and trends to try to be successful. It really feels like Square Enix and Crystal Dynamics forced this, and now they can't get of out of the loop and back to the core strengths of the game.

[@AnotherDuck]

The reboot made Lara into a generic "strong female protagonist" with none of the flaws that made her stand out as a character, and instead had those external flaws imposed on her by the world.

[@HailSagan95]

I work in the manufacturing industry, and when I was first starting out in the trade I made a habit of copying what all the old timers were doing because, well, that's how it's done. It took me a few years to realize that they were working 30 years in the past. Now that I'm at a place where I'm teaching some of the new hires, I (somewhat stubbornly) try and convince them to just TRY something first, before asking me how it's done. If it works, great! If it doesn't, I'm happy to help, and if isn't quite as good as it could be I'm happy to share how I might approach that given situation.

[@Sorain1]

That's solid. Might be worth adding to explanations of how you do things "This is the best way I know. if you find a better one, tell me because I want to do that instead."

[@HailSagan95]

@@Sorain1 Oh, 100%. I'll often let them to do it the way they've devised, even if it's not the best way of doing it, and later be like, "Nice job! He's another way you might want to try next time." Because I don't want them to think I'll just shut down their ideas all the time.

[@douglasduda9826]

Try this with farmers... lol 30 years behind try 50-60.

[@doublepinger]

I ran into a much more crunched scale at a recent job. The role(s) hadn't been filled in quite a while, "testing" items for re-sale, at a tech disposal company. The company made fast easy money selling stuff in the years prior, especially during "Covid season". I get the role when all the previous gangbuster stuff has lost value, items come in with more wear, more items have to be thrown out because what used to be good is worthless, etc. I'm working through the job at a "functional" pace, but half the time the people, even a retired tester that came back, can't tell where the heck it's coming from. It's working for the most part, and I came in with no operating procedures and even some counter-productive instructions. Thank god they let me work on the process, cause it was ROUGH.

[@stormageddon42]

My hobbies are gaming and lifting and lifting content is filled with the science vs bro and other debates. Everyone is trying to find “optimal” and they all have examples to point to. In reality each individual is different so you have to iterate to find what works for you, but “it depends on the individual” doesn’t get clicks like dogma, debate and cult like thinking does.

[@mzaite]

And yet, Bruce Lee almost established a Religion on the concept. But that's then a Cult of Personality failing, believing the person, not the Idea is what is given value.

[@mattsmith2247]

I completely agree and the funny thing is some of my favorite games are the ones who manage to take aspects from other games and integrate them well into their own settings and worlds. One of my current favorite games literally takes the climbing mechanic and exploration mechanics from something like breath of the Wild but puts it into a survival style game with aspects from other good survival stall games and it works really well for me

[@malhavoc431]

So, what are your thoughts on Palworld and its crazy success? A cargo cult ritual that actually worked, or successful iteration that is almost clone-like?

[@Dorrovian]

No matter how you look at that, Palworld is not a clone unless you somehow modded Pokemon game previously to have guns and pokemons working in gun crafting factories.

[@malhavoc431]

@@Dorrovian I meant "clone-like" in the context of the video. Taking an idea from another game/franchise and throwing it into their game, with very little, if any change. Would the ideas and mechanics incorporated into Palworld count as proper iteration or cargo cult worship that worked?

[@Dorrovian]

@@malhavoc431 That's interesting question I'm not really able to answer, as I don't play survival crafting games and didn't play Pokemon since 2nd gen.

[@DeEnDubleyoo]

As someone who's been gaming since the days of ye olde Atari 2600, the glut of "I've seen this before" games is EXHAUSTING. This problem is not new, and has plagued the industry for as long as I've been aware of it

[@Urduhkhan]

Every game I look at on Steam I'm like "Oh it's this other game I've played, but now it's pink and has crafting!" or something similar

[@Sotanaht01]

Palworld is literally "take the best ideas and smoosh them together.", but it works. Both in the financial sense, the game was a huge success in sales, and generally in the quality sense. It might be a bit over hyped given how incredibly much it was talked about, but at its core it's still pretty decent. Also the example about RPG mechanics. While they are often done poorly and probably don't add as much as they could, I'm hard pressed to think of any games that they actually make WORSE. Especially the "cargo cult" style that are just thrown in for marketability. Generally speaking, it is something that can probably improve a game at least a little bit even done poorly.

[@shotgunjackalQ]

The extra RPG mechanics made Assassin's Creed worse. The first few games were fairly open in that if you wanted to run into a high rank area it was easy to survive by using stealth and cunning. Now if you go to an area 3 levels outside of your range it's practically impossible to do anything. It's like your character arbitrarily forgets to stab the guy in the throat and kill him cause he has nicer shoes than you. But come back in 3 levels and he is a chump that you can take out instantly. It ruins the flow and feel of the world by making only a small part of the game accessible at a time. In the early games if I was bored and wanted to kill time or blow off steam I could fight the papal guard and see how many I could kill and still get away. That sort of emergent gameplay has been removed to the game's detriment.

[@VernulaUtUmbra]

I'd say Palworld is a case of finally iterating on a game people have been playing for decades at this point. 90% of Palworld is copied from other games, but the Monster Catcher genre of game doesn't get a whole lot of mainstream attention if it's not Pokemon

[@wearsjorge55]

I cant wait for the industries next "shift" and we see what other genre gets frankstiened into every mainstream game

[@notanotaku1101]

I will always, ALWAYS appreciate a creator that tries something new and fails, rather than one who plays it safe without ever taking a risk. I may not like the result, but the risk is the only way to get truly great art.

[@LostGamerJ]

I feel you're kinda missing the heartbeat of your debate there. The problem is not "repeating mechanics from other games." Time and time again has proven that these things still appeal to people and those that love and respect them know why and implement them well. The problem now is there are more game devs who care far less about the games and are trying to appeal to a very vocal minority who never cared about the games or gamers in the 1st place. The results is often poorly implemented games that often mock the gamers that would buy them.

[@youtubeuniversity3638]

The "disease" framing had me worried gotta say. Like the actual message good but seeing any indication of "disease" being used metaphorically or allegorically just sets off my fight or flight.

[@melephs_cap]

Not sure I like how the metaphorical disease here turned out to be the metaphorical Indigenous Melanesians, though

[@youtubeuniversity3638]

​​@@melephs_cap Yeah coulds beem better coulda

[@filipborch-solem1354]

@@melephs_cap Your moralism offends me.

[@junechevalier]

I think this is a symptom, not the root cause. And the root cause is that many of these devs don’t really understand why players love certain games. That’s why they try to imitate mechanics, maybe it’ll stick. That’s why they try to get into live service, because hey, people seem to like Destiny and Warframe, maybe if we only copy their business model, we would succeed too. Edit: grammar

[@mirrir]

I'm gonna say this is at least partially due to the death of flash. Indie devs don't really have a way to make experimental/practice games for free to hone their skills that gives them the amout of exposure and feedback that flash portals had. Itch exists I guess, but any mobile app shop takes some money just to verify your game, steam takes some money to verify your game/make it available, and nothing else comes close.

[@Pyritie]

disagree -- tools like unity, blender, godot etc make it WAY easier to get into game development than anything back when flash was popular

[@MinecraftRick]

@@Pyritie Unity is about to cease being free to use, and Flash was always more flexible than the tools that exist today. Harder to get into, perhaps, but there was practically no kind of game that Flash wasn't a good tool for.

[@trickster721]

This is a really out-of-touch take. There's a ton of exciting small web games happening on itchio and other places, and a ton of options for engines to make them, at all experience levels. They just get less attention now, because smartphones exist, with their walled-garden app stores.

[@Pyritie]

@@MinecraftRick Flash wasn't good for anything 3D.

[@jeffreygordon7194]

No way. I made flash games and it wasn't better. Kaboom, Phaser, Unity, Pico-8, Roblox, Scratch. There are so many examples of free engines for devs of all experience levels to start making games. And all of these publish to places that allow for better promotion than flash did.

[@beccangavin]

This is sooooo gooooood! I see it all over the place, not just video games. It’s amazing how many people will copy the aesthetic of a popular piece of media without understanding where the emotional impact came from. They just slap a coat of edgy paint on it and think that makes it deep. It’s hard to teach, I think, because you can read a book and not recognize the themes at all but the overall experience is good. The experience is good, though, because those themes are there and they hold the story together and make it resonate. If the writer isn’t skilled enough to compose a story and is just copying the vibes from another story, then it’s going to feel flat. This flatness will be apparent to most people even if they are the type that regularly doesn’t recognize themes in the media they consume.

[@DrCoeloCephalo]

After Pokemon Omega Ruby and Alpha Sapphire were outsold by Yo-Kai Watch 2 in Japan, you see this exact same thing with including a ton of Yo-Kai Watch feature without understanding why they helped. Such as the Rotom Dex map serving no puprose after you beat the story while Yo-Kai Watch has tons of side quests even in postgame that make the touch screen map useful.

[@adamanderson1979]

I am ready to be done with “rouge like”

[@ajbXYZcool]

Math. People, as far as I can tell, sometimes try to copy successful math strategies while not understanding why they use those strategies. So as a tutor/future teacher, I'm striving to teach that why, so people can actually grow and learn from them.

[@PrinceSilvermane]

Oh I have a personal pet peeve in this imitation trend in games. Estus flask like healing mechanics. 'I' understand that the Estus flask was created in the first DS to solve a problem that DeS created with farming healing items. NOT EVERY GAME NEEDS THIS KIND OF HEALING SYSTEM. It irritates me almost every time it comes up because it just gives devs an excuse to crank up the damage so that every enemy is a near one shot and you MUST heal after a hit. I'd argue even FROM is guilty of this, repair kits in AC6 is one of the most pointless inclusions. Most devs that do this seem to just think, "Oh Dark Souls did it, we should do it because it's a popular mechanic." Without really thinking what it might do to the combat flow or why it's done in the first place. There's probably other systems that are more awful, but this one strikes a particular chord with me. I'm just tired of getting brushed by a single attack and needing to retreat to heal.

[@shezario]

Is it loot boxes ? It's loot boxes isn't it ? It has to be loot boxes...

[@grantmillard8387]

First heard of the Cargo Cultists in the book, Dream Park, by Larry Niven. Picked up a few books on the topic including some used as the source material for the Niven book and it really is a very interesting concept. I like how you've extended the thinking of the cultists to the gaming industry here. It applies in SO many industries and in social sciences. Good take. Really enjoyed this!

[@Dorrovian]

Another Dream Park enjoyer!

[@delongjohnsilver7235]

I think this one is off the mark. It sounds nice on paper, but having done some design work on the other side (and granted in the table top instead of the computer sphere), I’ve experienced a lot of devs go through all three stages and still have the end product not work out. It’s like a puzzle made of gas, you can move the pieces into place, and they can either mix together really well or not, and there is little way to tell until you do. Experience can give you a more informed guess, but it’s still a guess. The biggest factor really is time, and I’m not talking crunch or pressure from execs, but the fact that this thing needs to be done at some point. You can keep tinkering with this system all you want, but you and your team still have to do the rest of the work as well. At a certain point, systems that din’t work are either a) too core to rework from the ground up or scrap b) can’t be pulled apart from each other (cause gaseous pieces), or c) it just isn’t worth it at that point. For all of them, and the last one in particular, it is better to finish it than to toss the project/system. There will be other chances to iterate, so it’s better to take the L, learn a lesson, and take that with you to the next project.

[@Dorrovian]

He didn't say it's only problem with getting good design done. That you can not get good product after doing all three steps doesn't invalidate his point.

[@TheMoogleKing93]

"Slap a crafting system on it and call it a day"

[@Venatius]

It's remarkable how many things in so many unrelated fields can be understood as cargo cult logic, once you boil it down to its essence of "attempting to reproduce a process without understanding it". "Sovereign citizen" arguments for instance are this applied to law and courtroom proceedings. Or video creators on sites like this very one, enacting elaborate rituals around avoiding certain key words or composing thumbnails a certain way, not because of its actual impact on viewership, but to invoke the favor or avoid the disfavor of "the algorithm" (which is treated practically like a cryptic divine figure) for more favorable video placement. Or actual (theoretical) viewership-manipulation rituals, like the classic "Hit that like, ring that bell" prayer, or essentially wishing aloud for certain numbers of likes or subscribers. Not necessarily because it's proven to accomplish anything - just because it's what they've seen others doing.

[@Sorain1]

"Or video creators on sites like this very one, enacting elaborate rituals around avoiding certain key words or composing thumbnails a certain way, not because of its actual impact on viewership, but to invoke the favor or avoid the disfavor of "the algorithm" (which is treated practically like a cryptic divine figure) for more favorable video placement." Some folks have actual metrics to back up those, and more worryingly, this exists because of how obfuscated and often changed the rules actually are.

[@Dorrovian]

To be honest, trying to deal with YT algorithm is not exactly cargo cult, it's people trying to find ways to deal with inhuman machine strange ways.

[@Llortnerof]

@@Sorain1 And YT actually enforces this to a degree.

[@Venatius]

@@Dorrovian Right, but they do so with rituals that are largely the results of rumors, guesswork, and hearsay rather than studied cause and effect.

[@Venatius]

@@Sorain1 I have seen some of those, but not all of them agree, not everyone is basing their decisions on actual metrics, and some of those metrics outright refute a lot of the "conventional wisdom" around the almighty algorithm. For example, on tests for videos being demonetized or deleted, a lot of spooky no-no words tested did not seem to actually coincide with either of those. I know some actual study has been done, but I'm not sure most people are basing their decisions on that vs. hunches, assumptions based on other sites' rules, or rumors.

[@Zackzickel]

5:12 that’s not true. These execs know what they’re doing. RPG elements are not included because other RPGs are popular, but because they are easy to monetise.

[@courtney.p.s.]

I miss having an affordable purchase option. I fondly remember FF2 and maxing out my items without grinding for each item.

[@PlanningConquest]

the fishing minigame I could do without

[@ericekman4190]

I actually named my new Kitten Ludo because of this series. Hope you dont mind.

[@crackedemerald4930]

ludo is furious

[@mittensfastpaw]

A sweety!

[@Padwiz]

I'm so tired of games that make you drop your money where you die and you have to go back and pick it up because that's what Dark Souls did. I don't care if it's balanced or even more generous than a flat game over. It makes me feel bad for dying, and there's very few games not named Dark Souls where that fits the game's mood.

[@annonymousannonymous9586]

Maybe if devs didn't try to make their games look so realistic like it was a CGI 3D animated movie, and stuck with easier art styles like cel-shading or hand-drawn sprites so that they look more 2.5D animated, they might be able to finish their games faster, which could save some time & money so that they can work on more games in less time.

[@gatocochino5594]

At a professional level, ''realistic'' 3D artstyles are cheaper or have an equivalent cost to develop than toon-like 3D artstyles. Hand drawn anything is a non-starter. Look at the fighting game genre to see this progression as new games come out.

[@mittensfastpaw]

​@@gatocochino5594A sad truth and many look worse for it. MvC3 looked like dirt devoid of charm. While MvC2 despite the balance issues is still old and loved.

[@annonymousannonymous9586]

Time is Money, and with all the time these Devs have to spend focusing on every last hair strand, every last dead skin cell, every last drop of transparent liquid, every speck of dust, every cubic millimeter of every tecture through out all of the characters & their movements, not to mention all of the backgrounds & the objects all around them, is costing barrels of cash, it would take up less time making everything look less realistic, then the games could be finished faster, and released sooner, all at a cheaper price, and make more of a profit if it sell well, then the devs could move on to their next project sooner, it's the strategy that Nintendo uses, and it's worked for them just fine so far.

[@eskimo4130]

Yeah. They've forgotten how to build a world and create an atmosphere.

[@AnotherDuck]

@@gatocochino5594 Just saw a video titled "The Visual Paradox of Fighting Games" about the topic.

[@An_Able]

Though I did notice the RPGification of games, what really struck as a feature being adopted by everyone was the "press L1 to block or tap parry mechanic." It's so prevalent nowadays.

[@typemasters2871]

Taking what you like from good games and putting them in a game is like wanting to make the best cake by taking chocolate from chocolate cakes, carrots from carrot cake, and strawberry jam and cream from Victoria sponge cake and putting them all into one cake because “Chocolate cakes, carrot cakes, and Victoria sponge cakes are the three most popular cakes”

[@Zhawn7]

I think it only make sense to do that if the features naturally mesh well or the features themselves are so minor that they don't affect the core game. However, if they're neither that's when you encounter problems.

[@typemasters2871]

@@Zhawn7 exactly

[@gdclemo]

mmmmmm, cake. what? sounds delicious.

[@mattkuhn6634]

Not to channel Brennan Lee Mulligan too much, but the problem here isn't games or even games devs, it's capitalism. This same problem happens in every entertainment industry, it's why there was a rash of dark, gritty movies after the Dark Knight trilogy did so well. The problem is caused by the need to seek the broadest audience possible, so AAA games in particular are the most vulnerable since they cost so much to make. It means that if they don't understand exactly why Big Game X did so well, then they should copy it at every possible thing that could have been the cause for the success. It is cargo cult thinking, but making ourselves more discerning won't fix the fact that it's economic concerns that drive the behavior.

[@anonymaton948]

I mean, I’m all for taking the bits and pieces you like from certain games and blending them together, but you can’t just do it mindlessly in front of a cash box

[@MaximumAxiom]

One thing I can tell you is that EVERYONE in the gaming industry does copy mechanics/UI/messaging/etc. from other games without fully understanding why, no one completely designs a game from scratch. Obviously some game devs are better at this process than others, and mix in the right amount of innovation but its really difficult to know what conventions you should or shouldn't follow and why.

[@Edrobot7]

Honestly, Team Ninja should get some creds for iterating on the soulslike formula, with Nioh trying focusing on stances and stamina management, Stranger of Paradise experimenting with a lot of wacky systems, and Wo Long experimenting with character and level progression. Not every experiment paid off (SoP in particular is a glorious mess that I still love), but they’re hardly cargo cult games.

[@kazraith3659]

The worst sin of SoP is the equipment system. Especially when you combine it with the class system. Having to pick up, discard, equipt, refresh your entire gear set up every other mission (roughly speaking) if you want to do significant damage, without taking it yourself gets tiresome when those same gear pieces are often tied to class-specific bonuses - or not even equippable by certain classes. You spend more time fighting the game's gear system than you are its mobs and bosses. It's been a while since I played, but I think it took them a DLC or 2 to implement being able to just level-sync your gear? Or am I misremembering? It's a shame because outside of that, the game is hilariously fun in the weirdest of ways.

[@chiporskip]

Its kind of funny remembering a time in gaming history where "Bullet time" was the thing.

[@Ceece20]

3:20 lol certified carried pug moment. Running this dungeon so many times for M+, I’ve barely seen any markers for this boss and at high key levels, I absolutely have to assume people know the fights. However, as with any pugs, you definitely will find that player who doesn’t know the fights and typically dies every boss because they don’t even bother learning. They just recreate what they did when the other groups carried them through the M+.

[@TheRhetoricGamer]

I stopped reading Gamasutra articles precisely for this reason. Just nonstop articles of devs saying they "figured out" why a game is so successful and then completely missing the mark in their attempt to duplicate their success.

[@holycowitsdave]

This is exactly why I feel like I'm taking crazy pills for being the only person who loved FromSoft's past game but just couldn't give a flying fuck about Elden Ring. Open worlds do not a better game make. So in the interest of "games that are trying something at least a little bit new" here are some great offerings with varying degrees of success that I don't here folks talking much about. En Garde is a hack and slash swashbuckling game. Very short, but very sweet. Shadow Gambit is a stealth based pirate themed CRPG. How about instead of killing every enemy on the map, you got from one side to the other without being seen? Heat Signatures is a top down arcadey twin stick shooter with some really unique mechanics. BOOK OF HOURS asks the brave question "what if being a librarian in a really chill library still somehow made you anxious?" Temtem asks the even braver question "What if Game Freak actually tried to make a game?" Again, varying degrees of success. I haven't finished a lot of these games but I still would recommend all of them

[@SolaScientia]

Yeah, I like Elden Ring fine and all, but when I compare it to their previous games it drops way down the list for me. I prefer the tighter focus and smaller, connected world design. It's why the castles and such are more fun in Elden Ring than actually exploring the open world (for the most part). It's just too damn big of a game. If my laptop were up to it I'd get En Garde. I've been interested in it ever since Iron Pineapple played the demo way back.

[@MizunoKetsuban]

If you even bothered to look at anything not labeled Pokémon you would see that Game Freak has in fact tried to make games

[@holycowitsdave]

@@MizunoKetsuban oh sorry my bad. How could I forget the genre defining, industry changing, absolute classic bangers that we all intimately know and love like... uhhh... gimme a sec to check Wikipedia... Oh, yeah, like Giga Wrecker. I'm sure we all played that one, right? Oh shit, Game Freak made Tembo The Badass Elephant? Well fuck me I'm sorry I said anything. I take it all back. And let's none of us forget the legendary Pocket Card Jockey: Ride On! That game changed my life fr fr

[@mrshmuga9]

“7/10” games are in an odd way “great”. They may not hit their full potential, but they do tend to make/try new mechanics that at least make it notable. Anger Foot is a game I’m itching to play (at some point). That demo was so addictive. Simple concept/execution, but oh so satisfying. I’d likely get more fun out of that 5-10h experience than [insert random AAA game here].

[@calvin7330]

There are plenty of FromSoft fans that don't like Elden Ring because it's open world. There are just more non-FS fans that got into ER because of it. Ultimately, "better" is subjective, but it's a fact that ER sold 2.5x the copies of DS3. Even though FS integrated a mechanic from more mainstream games, they arguably did it well instead of just tacking it on and hoping for the best, which is what cargo culting is.

[@Ziel23987]

Fromsoft doesn't really iterate anything. At this point, they are just copying the old formula and mechanics, whether it makes sense for the world they created or not. Sekiro was the one exception, even though it still had nonsensical mechanics like respawning enemies. But everything Sekiro improved in the formula, Elden Ring rolled back.

[@unattributed1641]

There's a fourth piece missing: innovate. Iteration is a derivative process, innovation is when you discover something that takes the iteration in a different direction direction. It's also the risk-taking part of the process.

[@Sorain1]

Yeah. As the four X's exist so do the 4 I's. But Innovate is by far the hardest and takes the most lead up.

[@Seizurebleak]

This video is great but you know what would make it better? If it was rogue-like with card battling and crafting elements!