SEEING RED | Buffy The Vampire Slayer 6x19 | The Normies Group Reaction

[@Thenormies]

Check out our new commentary channel Normies After Dork! www.youtube.com/@NormiesAfterDork/videos

[@029_madhavbansal8]

Watch Mirzapur 3 trailer

[@quaresepegram8127]

You guys react to Buffy 6x20 and 6x21

[@JoshuaMartian-go3tm]

Hey, Normies. I guess Xander was right reminding BUffy that she slept with a vampire. That's his nature.

[@celinelia8127]

you talk about tort ring Warren... worse people than him exist in the real world. do you want to make that punishment IegaI?

[@BaBamf11]

I feel like Suraj could tell something was up as soon as he saw Amber Benson in the opening credits 🥶, but then he kept his suspicions to himself.

[@haru_urara_tube]

I'm so glad at least one of them noticed her in the opening credits.

[@LRenee86]

I'm suspicious . . he knows things for sure.

[@Shinobi_912]

​@@LRenee86 nah, first time I noticed her name in the credits too, I was like "oh 'Tara' is the credits" and that's all

[@VeeAllar738]

5:24 His joyful, excited expression melting into concern ... he knew it was a bad sign

[@JoshuaMartian-go3tm]

Feel like? The editor practically told us with the zoom in. 😆

[@visarr]

Classic Buffy - they go from laughing hysterically to sad AF within a few minutes.

[@kypangoyi550]

They don’t seem that sad.

[@bernardsoul5186]

@@kypangoyi550 Yeah, more like shocked

[@basharic3162]

The stunned silence with eyes glued to the content is what every creative aspires to.

[@Merilirem]

@@kypangoyi550 Shock makes it seems that way.

[@blueyeshadow2738]

I love spike but I can admit that this isn’t out of character. It’s been shown time and again that to spike violence and sex are one and the same especially with his history with slayers. To me it’s one of the most complex and devastating episodes of the season

[@Merilirem]

Yeah Spike is also still a literal demon. He's gotten better but this is exactly the dark impulse and mental gymnastics that made him such a problem in life and death. You just forget what a monster he was because he's not showing it as much. This is something that people far more "normal" can do. Let alone a spike.

[@zemoxian]

Also, I don’t think this isn’t the first time she said no. He never respected her saying no or never again the whole season. This was just the first time she forcefully stopped him.

[@blueyeshadow2738]

@@zemoxianexactly he’s always believed that her Nos means yes and that it’s all a game

[@NoThankUBeQuiet]

​@@zemoxianbecause she said no but didn't actually MEAN NO. Like yes spike is bad and did bad things but buffy isn't in th clear either in how this all played out

[@naosou921]

He is also a soulless demon. Spike barely manages to keep himself in check when he needs to, but at all times he is a soulless demon. People just forget it because he isn't constantly out of control like Angelus. At the end of the day, a vampire is just a hollowed out human, possessed by a demon with an echo of their original self that the demon leaves on purpose to make it easier to mingle and hunt. It is a half-human, half-demon hybrid with the demon half on the driver's seat and the human half on the passenger's seat.

[@mwalsh47]

When this first aired, it was widely discussed that this was indeed Amber Benson's first appearance in the opening credits. Many, if not most viewers noticed it, and then had the rug pulled out from under them at the end.

[@Atika55555]

Rana's tryinto gaslight us by saying Amber Benson has always been in the intro

[@jakelover1731]

It's Darth Rana's vengeance for being gaslit at the start of season 5.

[@stardustvideo]

Mandela effect

[@joking2512]

lol gaslight? Geez, strong word for someone who misremembered. :)

[@matthewwilliams2093]

She's not entirely wrong. Tara was featured prominently in the credit sequence since at least the start of season 5. This is just the first time Amber Benson was named in the title credits and not the post-sequence guest list.

[@itowilltube]

does that mean she got paid more this episode?

[@ernesthakey3396]

Regarding the bathroom scene. Look at their prior relationship - fighting turning into sex has been at least half of their intimate encounters, they hit each other before jumping each other's bones more than once. When your play time has a history of starting with violence, you may not immediately realize that "this time the violence and saying no isn't actually foreplay." Their entire relationship has been toxic this season. This just went to a new level, with Spike realizing he'd crossed a line they hadn't crossed before. That's not an excuse, just an observation. They never had a safe word, they have violated consent before - remember invisible Buffy doing Spike by surprise? - Buffy has said she'd never touch him and then gone ahead and done just that. Be better in your own relationships than either Spike or Buffy in season 6.

[@chrissyjoy08]

I've said this for years. People get royally ticked at Spike for that, to the point where they hate him as a character entirely! And I totally am NOT condoning it or saying it's okay at all. At the same time, though, I'm not ticked at Spike... because this mindset of "you don't really mean it, I'll just convince you with violence and you'll end up liking it/liking me again" is literally who he was the whole time he was with Dru, and we saw that with season 5 when he kidnapped & tied up Buffy, and we saw it so much of the time in their relationship in season 6 ever since Spike realized he could hit Buffy and since he and Buffy both started taking frustrations out on each other equally and getting physical. Like Buffy told Xander or her mom (can't recall who) last season, she beats Spike up a lot, which is like 2nd/3rd base for him. This is who he is. Add to that their super toxic relationship... again, it's not okay that either of them crossed a line during the season at all, but I don't get mad at Spike for this because I'd have to be same level of mad (or more!!) at Buffy because she HAS a soul, yet pushed and/or violated consent with him a few times. I am however, very impressed that after she stopped him by kicking him away, he realized that it was too much, and didn't continue to push himself onto her. I hate watching the scene, cause it is horrible. I also hate watching any of their other physical scenes this season, cause they're maybe not quite as horrible as this one is, but they are all toxic and I hate it. I understand where they're both coming from but I still hate it.

[@ernesthakey3396]

@@chrissyjoy08 agreed. Like when Buffy was made invisible...that visit to Spike's place was just wrong on multiple levels.

[@Meanwhile-]

Remember when you were laughing about the jetpack? Good times.

[@unnderneath]

This was the writers way of reminding the audience that Spike is still a soulless vampire. From what looks like love from his perspective is actually obsession as without a soul, he's incapable of love. Chris pretty much summed this up perfectly. I think that's the hardest I've ever seen y'all laugh during Andrew's jetpack fail LMFAO

[@allmightylowercasejay1138]

No it wasn't, this was the showrunners way of getting to the next arc. The idea came from a female writter where she actually attacked her Ex Boyfriend in a bathroom. The showrunner Marti Noxon wanted to use it and gender swap the roles but the writters had a hard time writting the scene without Buffy just killing Spike so they injuried her.

[@stephaniebarker472]

@@allmightylowercasejay1138 I think it can be both- it is the way the writers remind the audience that Spike is still soulless and essentially evil as a way to get to the next arc.

[@RectPropagation]

Wild that in an episode with so much awful stuff happening, they also get the best laugh. Or maybe it's because that scene is surrounded by awful stuff that the laugh was so good.

[@dan7564]

I think part of the problem is just inconsistant writing. When Angel loses a soul, he becomes a completely different character like it's fight club. But Spike gets a soul and he's still spike. Just the characters around him suddenly gain sympathy for him and stop shitting on him. And also at times with the chip and where spike thinks he's gotten rid of it he seems to just think, well I'm a souless vampire so I guess I'm supposed to play the role.

[@JoshuaMartian-go3tm]

Yes. Whedon regrets I think how fans fell in love with spike when he was trying to convey that he was not good for buffy. That their relationship was not a good one. Spike however, is capable of love. He craved it as a human and as a vampire. This scene is just not it tho.

[@JordiVanderwaal]

"What the f*ck is this episode?" Exactly our thoughts for the past 20 years.

[@creasefold1986]

Christ , we got old

[@charmingjinx9379]

Yes, Amber Benson in the credits in this episode is classic Whedon. "Get comfy, because I'm about to rip out your innards."

[@brendanoconnor1550]

On rewatch the only thing that I can always feel happy about in this episode is Andrew’s Jetpack Fail

[@sdagoth3037]

Buffy should have been filming, could have sent that to America's funniest home videos.

[@oldcdog91]

The comments have been trying to remind you guys that Spike isn’t Angel. Spike has no soul. The only thing preventing him from feeding on humans is technology.

[@ameliacraiig4193]

Yes. To all intents and purposes Spike is Angelus, and episodes about his past before he became Angel with a soul, alludes to him committing atrocities throughout villages; & if one reads between the lines, depravities such as SA/grape were inflicted by Angelus too. I do however think the writers' hard 180 swerve from a lovesick Spike who seemed would never want to hurt Buffy... to this violent display, was very off - irrespective of having no soul. A lazy, gratuitous way to make the viewer at the time despise a character the writers resented being so popular - or so I have read from the accounts of James Marsters himself.

[@thomasdendtler4077]

​@@ameliacraiig4193 Marsters is not the most reliable narrator. R*pe is completely in character for Spike. Remember the line in Lovers Walk that we all thought was so funny? "I'll find her, tie her up and torture her. Till she loves me again." That's what he does.

[@Carabas72]

@@ameliacraiig4193 Not quite. Spike is just a guy without a soul. Angelus is the freakshow who makes being evil into an artform.

[@spikesecho724]

​@@thomasdendtler4077 I don't disagree that grape is probably a part of every vamps MO to some extent, but let's not conflate a line about bondage with Drusilla (who would legit love that) with grape

[@TheNakorius]

remember that the first time buffy and spike...did it , it was brutal and brought down a house...they both hurt the other. Here spike wanted it again but buffy wasnt into it...he didnt get the memo. how often she said to him no, stop and then moaned and did it with him...this scene is some way shows that even a safe word is not enough when people go bdsm...

[@thechonus3858]

This is the only episode in which Amber Benson appears in the main credits.

[@JordiVanderwaal]

Micky: I'm leaving the reactions Buffy 6x19: this is my parting gift

[@sherrysink3177]

Between her "Bloody Mary" joke about Spike's beverage choice and her comment about the nerds not having balls of their own (after they attained the orbs), Marketa was on fire during this reaction. 😆🤣❤ Heeeeeee.

[@cynerax]

People have overlooked (and the facilitated it deliberately) the difference between Spike and Angel. The chip preventing violence is different than actually having a conscience from possessing a soul). TheBuffyverse lore depicts that vampires are demon possessed corpses able to access the host’s memories using their old brains. When the host’s soul remains like with Angel he can then have awareness of the vampire’s actions as if it was his own memories. The fact that Spike even without a soul was able to show any trace of compassion, remorse, and personal growth is remarkable and suggests that he had something fundamentally different about himself (which is picked up upon subsequently in the Buffyverse.

[@Buffy8Fan]

I agree with you on the first part, but the way I equate how any soulless character works is would The Judge be able to burn them. But The Judge being able to burn them doesn't mean they aren't soulless. The truth of the matter is Angelus and The Master are the only soulless characters we've seen that could survive (perhaps some more one episode one demensional villains, but that's a hard one). At the end of the day Spike wasn't any different at the end of S5 - and the beginning of S6 - as he was before he was chipped and in this episode. His realization of that doesn't change his soullessness, either. All of this is the reason for the bathroom scene existing. Too many in-universe characters, fans, and Spike himself, assumed otherwise.

[@yayazow]

This 🤌

[@halenjulianna365]

@@Buffy8Fanthe Judge burned people based on their HUMANITY, not their soul. Spike and Drusilla are just as soulless as Angelus after ‘Surprise’, the Judge could potentially burn them because “you feel affection and jealousy for one another”. Spike 100% is not the same pre and post-chip, he is still soulless and he still experiences a warped version of human emotion.

[@Buffy8Fan]

@@halenjulianna365 Exactly! Humanity can be in soulless creatures, but it doesn't mean they aren't soulless. That was my point. Angelus and The Judge are the only soulless creatures without it and yet so many people equate Spike's emotions to his humanity. Neither positive or negative emotions, which vampires can have represent the qualities of humanity. Angelus and The Master have no humanity and cannot be burned. Spike can and does. But he's still just as dangerous due to being just as soulless, and therefore he's never been trustworthy enough to ever be praised as good at any time. Even when people try to argue good about him there was always aspects about him that kept it from being genuine. That is because he's soulless. This is why the bathroom scene happened and why it was when he realized (which I can guarantee was tinged with ungenuineness of some sort) he couldn't be a good guy that he, and some of the audience, thought he was.

[@mythosinmedia]

Well, we finally made it. Buffy's Red Wedding. Every single time you guys have said "I couldn't hate the nerds more", we've all been like "Oooh, just wait." "Your shirt" are two words Buffy fans have had stuck in their heads for over 20 years. It never stops hurting. Half a season waiting for Willow and Tara to get back together and... And no Amber Benson was always a guest star. She was made part of the main cast for this one episode.

[@sdagoth3037]

Rana: "This is season 6, episode 19, Seeing Red... and that doesn't sound good honestly." Congratulations, you're a prophet.

[@MsKimifer]

I'd like to invite everyone to imagine the alternate timeline, where Johnathan introduced Andrew to his high school friend Larry, and the good trio was formed. They'd have worked hand in hand with the Scoobies.

[@lyrialzander]

This was canon, in the episode The Wish. Giles, Oz, Larry and Nancy were a group called The White Hats. I can see Jonathan being part of that, and the Andrew character wasn't in it yet but I can see that too.

[@MrLorenzovanmatterho]

@@lyrialzander Not uncommon in fanfic, if anything happens to the rest of the Scoobs the Trio (Amy, Larry, Harmony etc) end up as Buffy's (or sometimes Faith's) new Scooby gang.

[@MrLorenzovanmatterho]

Not uncommon in fanfic, if anything happens to the rest of the Scoobs the Trio (Amy, Larry, Harmony etc) end up as Buffy's (or sometimes Faith's) new Scooby gang.

[@Merilirem]

Yeah, they fell in with the wrong asshole. They had so much potential but that is how all villains are. If you don't have the potential to be great in some way you aren't going to be s great villain either.

[@Anhedonis]

The Andrew Wells character was created because Brad Kane wasn’t available to reprise his role as Tucker Wells. So what would that have been like? Alternate timeline or A Whole New World? 😂

[@Zokolov]

Andrew hitting his head with the jet pack takes me out every time

[@desarae9778]

Virtual hugs to the whole couch. The end of this season is dark and wild!!

[@Jontor11]

Yeah, this is the episode when the sh*t hits the fan. Suraj was right, this is the first time Amber Benson was in the intro. James Marsters hated doing that bathroom scene. It really got to him and he had to go through some therapy afterwards.

[@catrin3944]

I’m so glad they all lost it when Andrew crashed into the roof because when this first aired it went to an ad break after and I swear I just cried laughing through the whole damn break 😂 I honestly had tears down my face, my sides were killing me… I just lost it 😂😂😂😂😂

[@nigelseawell4986]

I’ve been waiting for this episode since they started these reactions

[@homunculus7]

People tend to forget spike is a demon with no soul, instead of love he acts from obsession

[@stephaniecasey9100]

This. People talk all the time about the fact that Spike loved in seasons 5 and 6. But the truth of the matter was that he was obsessed with her. The only slayer he fought but couldn't kill.

[@tabxtra7057]

Right now.

[@zemoxian]

You could call the obsessive possessive unhealthy attachments that vampires experience is a kind of love. Even humans who experience it call it that. I would not wish that kind of love on anyone I cared about, even a fictional character like Buffy. A lot of his manipulation of Buffy this season pretty much confirms that for me. I don’t think this episode was particularly surprising given his nature. Shocking, perhaps. But he’s not good with rejection. He’s also incapable of understanding how much pain being with him was causing Buffy. His own obsession blinding him to the intellectual empathy he’s shown before. I tend to think of his high level of empathy or emotional intelligence is most useful for him as a predator. He’s able to get close and personal with victims with charm and looks. It makes him an effective hunter. I don’t see him being able to emotionally empathize with people though. He can rationally understand someone is in pain but he doesn’t feel it himself. Again that’s good for a hunter but not for a relationship. So these years of bondage by chip has led to some emotional attachments that wouldn’t naturally occur. His obsession with Buffy got turned into what he thinks of as love but he’s not really able to connect emotionally with Buffy. She’s in pain and only seeking him out to use him. He thought she was reciprocating his feelings. He even felt used at times. But his limitations made that acceptable to him.

[@TheArtofBeingReacts]

​@@zemoxian Wow. You sound like you have experience?

[@zemoxian]

@@TheArtofBeingReacts Experience? Certainly not experienced with vampires or behavior modification chips. I do know some basic human psychology and I’ve had about 20 years to think about the show over several rewatches, reaction channels, etc.

[@phueal]

A lot of this is "more real". Not just a plain old gun being used to attack them, but also the SA. This show has had much worse SA than this in the past, but this scene was just so much closer to real life that it hits *much* harder...

[@whedonobsessed]

hold up, what was the worse SA?

[@phueal]

@@whedonobsessed The worst was definitely Willow rewriting Tara’s memory (before climbing into bed with her), that’s abuse on SO MANY levels, not just sexual - especially considering the severe gaslighting from Tara’s family and Glory’s destroying her mind. Jonathan is a close second because he not only raped two people, but they were twins and having sex together, so he not only mind-controlled them into having sex with him but also into committing incest with each other. Astonishingly Warren isn’t even the worst considering he’s such a scumbag, but what he did to Katrina was also worse than what Spike did to Buffy, especially if you broaden the scope to include not just him committing attempted rape but committing actual murder. And then there’s what Faith did to Riley. Essentially not just raping him but in a bizarre way duping him into raping Buffy! I don’t even know how to describe that. To name a few…

[@goldenageofdinosaurs7192]

@@phuealThis. I’m always a little confused by how much of a pass Willow is given for her SA of Tara. I mean, that’s textbook drugging & r*pe. If that went to a court of law, she’d get 5-15 years.

[@GJS2183]

One of the scenes that made this show so timeless. 20 years later still as shocking and impactful. The red wedding before the red wedding and the beginning of an epic finale with Dark Rosenberg, iconic.

[@Magis_Ghast]

You have to remember that Spike has no conscience. He has no soul telling him he's doing something bad, and Buffy has been using him for months. Their entire relationship was built on one or both of them saying no and then doing it anyway. You can see it on his face as soon as she kicks him off, he only just then realizes that she MEANS it this time. She didn't mean no when she said no any other time, so why would this time be different? It was an awful relationship built on grief and greed, and this is the tipping point. Spike realized he did something bad finally, and left.

[@92sentrell]

Agree 100%

[@stephaniecasey9100]

Having no conscience is not the same thing as not knowing something is wrong. Quit making excuses. Spike may have been in the heat of the moment and yes, she has said no before and then capitulated but it was never to this extent. You can also tell that Spike's plan as he was leaving town was to find a way to get rid of his chip and then come back to get his revenge. Regardless of how that works out (I won't get into spoilers), that was his plan. This is not someone who is focused on regret over his actions.

[@Magis_Ghast]

@@stephaniecasey9100 I'm NOT make any excuses for his actions, absolutely, he shouldn't have come into the room at all when she told him to leave. But he is a vampire, and they're shown to have no conscience or concept of hurting others, but he still does better than 90% of vampires in the entire show. He does leave to find a way to hurt her, but (spoilers free as possible) that's not what he really wants. He's lying to himself, trying to hold on to the Big Bad persona. Maybe they never should have gotten close at all, maybe it was just fan service that got out of hand, and then the writers dropped this bomb because they backed themselves into a corner. In the end, he's a character and an evil one who's done things worse than this in his past even if it wasn't on screen.

[@Magis_Ghast]

@@stephaniecasey9100 also I'm not in any way saying "not having a soul makes it ok!" I'm saying "He doesn't have a soul, so we shouldn't have gotten comfortable."

[@stephaniecasey9100]

@@Magis_Ghast That I completely agree with. Sorry I misunderstood your first statement.

[@phueal]

Chris: "Let's list all the evil things Warren has done. He built a robot ... He tried to mind control [Katrina] so that he and all the boys could have fun with her ..." Spidey: "And he didn't even plan to share her!!" 24:36

[@prometheus3498]

I can excuse rape, but I draw the line at selfishness!!

[@phousefilms]

Lana Kane:(Head shake with eyes closed)

[@jp3813]

According to James Marsters, the bathroom scene was initially conceived by a female writer who felt guilty about trying to force herself on her ex-boyfriend in a desperate attempt to fix their relationship back in their younger days. Hence, Buffy was supposed to easily push Spike off her immediately just like how the writer's ex-boyfriend did so in real life. Except other writers got their hands on the scene and pretty much took away Buffy's powers & skills (she fights off neck bites all the time even when slightly injured). One wonders if they would've done it the same way if it was Drusilla assaulting Angel w/ the latter reduced to pleading & crying. Also, it's by this point in the series that fans in general realize that characters being happy for long is simply not allowed in this show. The trope that Chris points out at 23:34 was way more noticeable back in the early 2000s when there were very few LGBTQ characters on TV. And it's extra painful for Tara fans to find out that Joss Whedon only put Amber Benson in the opening credits b/c he didn't get to do the same thing w/ Eric Balfour who played Jesse.

[@ibgvox]

That female writer was the boss: Marti Noxon (Joss was in and out for meetings, yay nay to arcs, some storybreaking and final pass, but little more due Firefly). Tara's death was in Joss mind, in detail, since Season 5 (even the 'your shirt' line)

[@Samaelthekind]

I know I hinted at this for most of the last couple months...but now its safe to say it, now that spoilers aren't a concern. Like I said before, Spike is more human, more 'himself' than most vampires because his personality is strong enough to push through the demon part of his nature...but at the end of the day...there IS a demon in him, and he has no soul...just the memories of the person he was in life. It's not enough to make him capable of real, selfless, human love. (Which...is hard enough for humans to accomplish, never mind undead beings fueled by the presence of a demon!) He is passionate, can try to be loyal, can be ferocious on someone's behalf...but he's basically a loaded weapon that can go off at any time for little reason. This episode is why I was pretty candid about S6 being the darkest Buffy season...and for those of us who love Spike as a character...it was extra exhausting and painful to see this episode. As for losing Tara...just when it couldn't seem worse...worse comes and sets up shop.

[@TheRulesLawyerRPG]

Now that we've gotten to this point I need to share a story about my so-called "friend" who spoiled this episode's big surprise to me. She just casually dropped that Tara would die. I was shocked and appalled. "WHAT!? How can you spoil that for me!?" "It's no big deal; she just got shot." I've hated her forever for that!

[@paulinerobertson6836]

I hate her and I don't even know her!

[@celinelia8127]

spoilers are never cool

[@jonsvendsen4015]

I think Suraj's hair needs to be acknowledged for the drip and rizz!

[@jimmygreer2140]

"WHAT THE FUCK IS THIS EPISODE?!" Yeah, this is the Red Wedding of the Buffy series. Been waiting YEARS to see this reaction and it wasn't disappointing. It was interesting seeing how quickly each of them caught on that Tara was out there catching strays. But yeah, SLOW BURN!!! Been a pretty tame season with the Big Bad. Hmmm, I wonder why that is....CAUSE WILLOW IS THE BIG BAD!!!!

[@tariqthomas9090]

And before anyone says “Well actually the Big Bad is supposed to be life-“ I say SCREW THAT! The plot of this season begins with a decision that Willow made and it’s been building up to her face-heel turn ever since.

[@icklenatzzzzzz]

"Seeing black" I see as a level above "Seeing red".. like pure unadulterated rage where someone gets hurt :x

[@tyleryardley845]

seeing red is mad but there is a level past and it is called weighing out you end up getting to much adrenaline and rage out the funny thing is Pokemon miss named blacking out with this.

[@Merilirem]

Seeing Black to me is when you come to with blood on your clothes and no idea how it got there.

[@Ren_Davis0531]

The were at the height of the troll powers when they finally put Amber Benson in the opening credits only to kill her off in the same episode. Whedon joked about that with Doyle in Angel where he liked putting someone in the credits only to kill them shortly afterwards. He apparently liked that idea as far back as Season 1 with Jesse, Xander’s friend (Milo from 24) who got turned into a vampire. He wanted him in the credits just to kill him off immediately.

[@NanaAphesis]

THERE'S A STRONG FORESHADOW OF SPIKE HERE: WHEN HE LEAVES HE LET'S HIS JACKET BEHIND(the highest symbol and pride of his souless vampire days) SHOWING HIS REAL INTENTIONS WHEN HE LEFTS SUNNYDALE AGAIN😏

[@spikejr3113jr]

Remember Spike is still evil he has no soul he is like a rabid dog with a mussel. he is trying to fight his evil impulses but at the end of the day he is still a vampire a MONSTER with no soul. Even the writer of this episode said that they went to fair with spike this episode.

[@NelsonVlog66]

Amber was listed as a guest star, but this was the first and only time she was featured as a regular cast member in the opening title montage.

[@notoriouslybratty]

25:27 Dang Mickey…

[@WDFilms25]

mickeey sees the future

[@matthewhuff9792]

Yep, i jumped when I heard Mickey say that

[@sdagoth3037]

Don't you know Mickey's just a big fan of House Bolton?

[@dsg173]

Bored now.

[@pillmuncher67]

Fun Fact: Adam Busch (Warren Mears) and Amber Benson (Tara Maclay) used to date and still remain friends.

[@Gwenhwyfar7]

I absolutely hate that. 😅

[@lemongrassskittles627]

Buffalo Willow approaches. Turns out the demon who's assaulted, tortured, and murdered a lot of people isn't the best dude. Pretty shocking stuff.

[@sharenehaywood8850]

It still has a powerful effect after all these years

[@donaldfleming5049]

What happens at the end of the next episode is going to be the biggest 'Holy CRAP!' moment in television history.

[@dudermcdudeface3674]

Short answer: Whedonverse is sadistic. It wouldn't build a character like Tara except to use as a weapon against the audience.

[@anothervagabond]

"What was that?" So apparently that was Joss Whedon getting more and more pissed that fans didn't seem to get that Spike was an evil piece of shit, he had become a fan favorite because he wasn't able to physically hurt anybody and he was a fun character. So he wrote in this scene to remind everybody that Spike is not a good guy. He's a villain with a muzzle on.

[@ibgvox]

He asked writers to do it to remember audiences Spike was a monster, yep. Then Marti Noxon pitched the scene based on her own experience (she was Spike actually). DeKnight wrote it.

[@zakkxx1]

Those last episodes just impressed me so much when I was a kid back then.. Dark Willow is something else. You’re about to find out 😢🖤

[@alex.9398]

The show absolutely did do that trope. It's often used as a famous example of it.

[@melancholylove]

It's one of the first examples and is up there with Lexa as the perfect example. Let them be happy for 2 seconds, just to kill them off in the laziest way.

[@pegusus12346]

For what it's worth, Whedon did say that Willow's lover was going to die regardless and it would have happened if she'd still been with Oz.

[@imjuliewaters]

I feel like they did it before it became a thing.

[@alex.9398]

@@imjuliewaters Sorry but that's just wrong. Buffy was just a prominent and late example. The trope of killing off gay characters for no reason started in American novels decades before then it made it's way to TV. The thought at the time was that novels featuring gay characters wouldn't be allowed to be published unless one of them died at the end.

[@Merilirem]

@@imjuliewaters Lol no. That shit has been around a long time.

[@gehrehmee]

Top 2 tragedies, right up there with Joyce. I think it's worth keeping in mind that when a real favorite goes, they tend to have a perfect day leading up to it. Tara reconciled with the redeemed love of her life, Joyce was feeling healthy for the first time, having fun with her daughters, and had a great romantic date with someone who was "still getting it right". They go out on top. It takes just a little sting out of the heartache.

[@jean-philippedoyon9904]

That scene with Spike trying to rape Buffy was for James Master that hardest he had to do for the show and said it many time in interviews...there are many story about it, i think he almost needed counselling...

[@minuette1752]

That bathroom scene was done in one take and messed up Marster's, he hates that type of stuff, it sent him to therapy.

[@ShadowDogProduction]

Now Suraj is being gaslight! Rana's Revenge!

[@Jang9851]

This was the original red wedding back in the day. It’s in the title Seeing Red. The shock and backlash the disbelief of Tara’s death. But it fits with theme that worst demons are not supernatural they can be human. Or just natural tragedies of life.

[@BusoRockin1000]

I almost feel bad for Jonathan. He was desperate for any friendship and got mixed up with a braindead asshole and Warren, who is a Red Pill sociopath. And they both prove they weren't his friends at the crucial moment. As for Spike he thought he had become better and that he didn't stop himself or go through with his assault was an existential crisis for him. He wasn't as evil as he thought he should be or good like he wanted to be.

[@neoarchangemon3460]

The next 3 episodes are about to go CRAZY!!!

[@shockzz1234]

One of the craziest episodes of Buffy ever lmao. And in among all the serious shit, they still gave you good comedy lol. I love this series.

[@roujin518]

I think what people are missing with this episode is to remember how Spike and Buffy's sexual history started: with fighting that turned into sex. So for Spike he thinks that he can just recreate the magic again. But since Buffy was hurt they were not equals in this situation, and he couldn't see that because he lacks a soul (empathy) This also makes sense with how Spike understands relationships. As Buffy even put it: violence to Spike is like 3rd base.

[@h.haydon8044]

You need to check out interviews James Marsters did about "the scene". It actually came from a female writer. Her boyfriend broke up with her, SHE threw herself at him, and the man had to throw her out.

[@Jang9851]

This! It shocked me.

[@h.haydon8044]

@@Jang9851 It's true. Go on KZbin and look up the interviews.

[@XLE6IONX]

It was absolute crap writing. Should never have been allowed through. Completely undid seasons worth of character growth.

[@meaganmelton5332]

​@@XLE6IONXI disagree. To quote @unnderneath from this comment section: "This was the writers way of reminding the audience that Spike is still a soulless vampire. From what looks like love from his perspective is actually obsession as without a soul, he's incapable of love. Chris pretty much summed this up perfectly."

[@thomasdendtler4077]

​@@XLE6IONX he's a vampire. He never should have had any character growth

[@ThiagoDragon]

Spidey saying Spike is going to Brazil because of the best surgeons lol.

[@alexgraetzer]

I love how sure Rana is even though she is wrong.

[@rafaela40]

I remember when you guys watch Hush solo and were like... yeah, its ok. Its cool. And now look at you guys representing all the scoobys out there...

[@katevand]

Thank you Mickey for saying actually what it is. 13:33

[@happyslapsgiving5421]

Aaah, yes! I remember it vividly. Tara was always in the opening credits. Always. Since season 1. Just like Dawn.

[@NelsonVlog66]

Tara was in the original 1992 feature film and unaired pilot same as Dawn.

[@ARMAN25]

Yeah guys can't miss the last 3 episodes. Remember try and not look at the credits.

[@MrPauljayburke]

I know what you are thinking but, thankfully, it isn't spoiled. It was kept out of the credits to stay as a surprise 😊

[@terrystickland219]

25:26 Are we going to talk about the fact that Micky absolutely called it?

[@lyssalovesit]

Most controversial episode of buffy.

[@Arcannabis]

The goosebumps I got from y’all reacting to Tara’s scene. And willows eyes. For me this is one of the best story arch’s in the series, leading into great final seasons (in my opinion)

[@lewistheobald6702]

About the title of the episode, 'Seeing Red', as Mickey said, is based on Willow's eyes at the end of the episode and on seeing blood (as well as on the idiom meaning 'being angry'). But don't forget that 'Red' is also a nickname that Spike used to use for Willow (based on her hair colour). The implication is that we are now seeing Red truly; we are getting a clear view of the depths of rage and power that lie within her. This show is very studied when it comes to names. 'Buffy' suggests a ditz and sets up the whole premise of the seemingly helpless little blonde girl who turns out to be a badass; 'Angel' suggests the potential for great supernatural power which can be used for good (non-fallen angels) or evil (fallen angels); 'Spike' has overtones of violence ('torturing victims with railroad spikes') and sex (phallic symbol, anyone?). It's especially subtle with regard to Willow. Remember that Buffy often calls her 'Will'. In the Willow-centric Season Four episode Something Blue (a matching pair with 'Seeing Red'), Will is mourning the loss of Oz (again, the similarities...) and she casts a spell to 'have her will done', with hilarious but also dangerous consequences. Beneath the sweet exterior, Will is really all about having her will done, as we saw throughout Season Six; and Red is now seeing red.

[@ejr87r]

Yeah this is the episode this season really goes there.

[@Dudeamis17]

Reminder: Spike is a soulless monster, just like Angelus was

[@stephaniebarker472]

And this is the argument that will never work for me. Spike does not reveal himself to be a soulless monster in that scene, he reveals himself to be sad and desperate... and sadly, all too human. Perhaps if they chose to show him in vamp face during that scene, my feelings might be somewhat different. But James played Spike with such pathos in that scene that it is hard for me to dismiss him as just a soulless monster.

[@Dudeamis17]

@@stephaniebarker472 Spike himself felt differently, he realized that he will never be able to control himself without a soul. A vampire lacks an ego and is all id. While you have guys like Parker and Warren who are ruled by their id, they still have an ego and like Faith could eventually learn to see the error in their ways, vampires lack that. Even vamps that take on the traits of a hopeless romantic like Spike are still the demon.

[@ms_scribbles]

Not "just like" Angelus. Liam, the human with a soul, was already the kind of guy to SA women. So when he lost that soul and became Angelus, he was ten times worse than Spike without a soul. Even when Spike did this. Angelus didn't just act spontaneously. His treatment of his victims was slow and crafted to create the most harm, both physically and psychologically, as possible.

[@DJZ64X]

​@@ms_scribbles Liam never assaulted woman, i don't know here you get that from.

[@Dudeamis17]

@@ms_scribbles oh so Spike wasn't murdering his way through Europe and Asia until he came to Sunnydale?

[@jeremiahalonzo]

It's episodes like these that made episode 3 of The Last of Us so special. IYKYK

[@minuette1752]

I do enjoy seeing reactions to this episode.

[@victorluke5816]

This is one of the first modern tragic ends for a long time LGBT depicted relationship. This became way too common a way to end things in many shows afterwards.

[@fabianhebestreit3240]

To be fair, it was also one of the very few long time LGBT relationships on television in general. They just did not happen back then.

[@datasafe00]

I’ve always said that Tara going was the consequence of brining buffy back

[@sarahfemmenicole88]

James Marsters has a clause in his contract now. He will never have to do a scene like the one in this episode. It's so hard to watch for myself, personally, as an SA survivor. And the ending just rips your heart out. Welcome to the "Tara's dead" club ya'll. It's about to get real

[@GlennQuagmireGiggity]

Another fact about this episode (since everyone had already talked about Benson being in the main credits): James Marsters (who played Spike) openly admitted that he hated having to do the bathroom scene

[@Kris-wp3fm]

Just started and I'm already anticipating at least one person will scream.

[@TheWiseGrif]

One very long, very disbelieving scream

[@sdagoth3037]

One Revenge of the Sith Darth Vader scream.

[@truewave]

One "Michael Scott reacts to Toby's return" scream.

[@basharic3162]

Ok so who in the pool had Rana going full catatonic for a minute and a half? Wasn't me. Since they've already seen the next episode Mickey has already won the pool. Willow gets her revenge and bloodies up the forest doing it. Also Marketta (Sp?) was on fire this episode, especially the under-appreciated "I also casually garden in high heels."

[@Buffy8Fan]

The Normies are now BtVS Winter Children. This show has it happen later than _Game of Thrones._ The truth of the matter is Angelus and The Master are the only soulless characters we've seen that could survive The Judge (perhaps some more one episode one demensional villains, but that's a hard one). At the end of the day Spike wasn't any different at the end of S5 (and the beginning of S6) as he was before he was chipped and in this episode. His realization of that doesn't change his soullessness, but it is the reason for the bathroom scene existing. Even with him hating himself, he's still soulless. That's something many fans still don't always understand. Including The Normies. Doing good never made him good. All of this is the reason for the bathroom scene existing. Tara is officially a main character and Joss finally got to do what he wanted to do with Jesse. Make him a main character just to kill him off. Only with Tara in this case. Bury your gays trope or not, there are two reasons Tara died that has nothing to do with the bad aspects of the bury your gays trope: 1. Tara was the only one this season growing up, starting when she left Willow. The point of the season is the failure of growing up. Tara is the only one not struggling in that reguard. Therefore she becomes Buffy's Giles. The replacement authority figure. This next part is not confirmed in any way, but my theory is had Anthony Stewart Head not taken time off to see his family, his character would have died ie authority figure death trope type of way. Sinve Tara had that role she had one reason she was guaranteed to die. 2. Tara and Willow getting back together seemed sweet with the line, "Can we just skip it," but I don't think its was a good idea to "skip" the issues. Long term that could just bite them in the ass. And, as seen in this episode, jumping into not dealing with them is the reason Tara is in Warren's line of fire. Dealing with those issues would mean not jumping into bed and not being naked nearly all day until the moment happens. Let me be clear, I am not blaming Willow or Tara for Warren's actions in killing Tara, but I do think it was too soon for Willow and Tara to just jump into bed. Whether Tara realized it or not, her death warrent unintentionally started when she said, "Can we just skip it." Could there have been other outcomes? Yes. But then that leads back to unresolved long term issues with Tara and Willow because they just skipped the talk they needed to have. 3. Willow was only semi on the wagon. In most arcs like the one Willow's been going through there is a moment of falling off said wagon. Tara's death, as we see at the end of the episode, triggers that for Willow. During the intial run, 15% of the fanbase disappeared after this episode. Willow acting hurt over not knowing parts of Buffy's life again. She's done that before. Buffy's business isn't always her business just because they're friends. I'm glad Tara's there to say that to her with the line, "Kind of like [the look] you have right now." I don't know how word perfect or not that is. Buffy and Xander from the time they met until now have been on friendly terms and even friends through Willow's friendship with each of them, but until the conversation they have just before Warren shows up, I don't think I believe their friendship could survive without Willow. In _The Pack,_ Xander lies to Buffy about not remembering what he did as a hyena. What his reasons are don't matter. The problem is that when Buffy finds out in _Phases,_ she makes the realization that Xander would do anything to avoid talking about important issues, from talking to him, and thus dealing with the fact that a hyena attempted to sexually assualt using his feelings, to yelling at others about issues that aren't his issues, to magically making others sing instead of talking about his own said issues with Anya, etc. When Buffy realizes he lied about the hyena, they never talk about any of their issues to one another because she realizes he can't and/or doesn't wish to. Xander yells at Buffy for her issues, and she only brings up his in anger when he's angry at her first. This episode is the first time I see them talking issues out and bringing their friendship up to a level where I feel it could survive without Willow as their third wheel bonding glue. The only other time they get close to doing so was in _The Freshman,_ but Xander flubs the advice and wants to get the group back together (in mty opinion because Willow is better at what he still cannot do with Buffy, not just because Buffy is feeling down and she needs it). _The Freshman_ issues turn to a yelling match head in _The Yoko Factor,_ and while Willow was also a part of that, audiences know Xander and Willow could stand without Buffy, and Buffy and Willow could stand without Xander. At that point I don't feel Xander and Buffy could stand without Willow. Not until this episode do I feel their friendship could survive without Willow. There is a reason why The Normies bring up the fact that this is the first time the two _really_ talk. It's because this is a beginning of a true friendship that can urvive without Willow. Is it odd that I've been waiting for Marketa's reaction to Tara's death, considering her dislike of The Trio from the beginning?

[@ericjohnson6120]

Suraj: How do they keep finding things! Me: They're nerds, they do their homework.

[@vanesrak]

25:30 This is not Vampire Diaries. They brought back Buffy but it also brought many problems which they lasted all season.

[@icikle]

I've seen buffy countless times, and that end still gives me goosebumps.

[@15arael]

This episodes ending will forever be ingrain in my head

[@Bekka_Noyb]

yeah that was pretty much everyone's reaction to the ending to this episode! 😧

[@wobaguk]

Whedon said he regretted having Glory hurt Tara in S5, because there was no other way to but up in S6 to accomplish what he wanted for Willow's rage without it being a repeat.

[@antoniolamounier]

What? No, he didn’t.

[@deondremorris7803]

broo im fucking crying at 11:52 😂 its like he had a delayed reaction, but was already dead before he could react

[@rookie1178]

Go back and watch this season, and see how many times Spike and Buffy have refused to take no for an answer during their sexual encounters

[@na2089]

At least one of those guesses about what they will do to warren will happen.

[@andys8483]

Spoiler alert ⚠️

[@EpicHelios83]

Another Buffy episode I've been waiting for you guys to get to. The rest of this season is wild from this point on.

[@ThatBonsaipanda]

The episode that I was waiting for, reactions did not disappoint, even after all these years.

[@katevand]

I re watched this one year and thought that the fawn Willow summons and kills in the first episode of this season is foreshadowing for Tara, a truly innocent soul.

[@WinterOnTheWeb]

4:59 "I hate them so much!!" Oh, you sweet summer child... I've been excited to see you all react to this (and also scared for your trauma 😢)

[@selenagomezacapella]

I’m not ready for this watch omg

[@selenagomezacapella]

And I’m in tears

[@sdagoth3037]

Yeah I know, I'm rewatching Buffy for the first time, and I actually felt a nervous excitement before watching this episode again, which kinda surprised me. Jesus this episode...

[@selenagomezacapella]

@@sdagoth3037 I rewatch the entire show at least once every year and it still gets me 😭

[@katevand]

It never stops impressing me how television can move so many people the same way. All different types of humans, but the same saddening shock.

[@Kronos74]

Renna just so confidently prounoucing the wrong answer lol.

[@RetroRobotRadio]

Amber has never been in the opening credits until this episode.

[@natalielang6209]

This episode contains so much, it's hard to believe it was the same length as all the rest. Jonathan wanted to belong and ended up on the darkest path. He kind of realised it was happening but didn't have the guts to walk away.

[@spiderhamilton1]

I've been waiting on this reaction more that any other including Hush and The Body. The looks on the y'alls faces is perfection Edit: Warren wasn't being super masculine, he is misogyny personified. Andrew is closeted disguised as immature toxic masculinity. Spike is a soulless which basically means vampires are the equivalent of narcissistic sociopaths in real life. Bcuz Buffy hooked up with him, everyone forgets he was Buffy's stalker who had a sex bot built in her image. The best part of Spike's arc this season is the audience is made to feel how a woman can hook up with or fall for the most toxic dudes even if it's obvious asf

[@celinelia8127]

the way you guys talk at the end - you seem no better than Warren