Selectives Lorecast 18: Mankar Camoran

[@michaelzeigler1129]

Meruhunes Dagon's ultimate revolution is the unmaking of his own neo-nymic (as the Prince of Revolution), for the purpose of rebirth as his proto-nymic as Leaper Demon King.

[@Aramithius]

Michael Zeigler From revolution to evolution... Isn't the point of revolution (politically at least) the establishment of a new system? It's never an end in itself, but always a means. Therefore, if Dagon is to express revolution fully, he must at some point "resolve" into something else. Not sure that it would be the restatement of his protonymic, though - wouldn't that be counter-revolution?

[@michaelzeigler1129]

Aramithius It depends on the magnitude of change caused by the assertion of a neo-nymic. If, as some here have suggested, the loss of the proto-nymic means utterly destroying your former self so that the neo-nymic is (for all intents and purpose) now who you truly are then the return to the proto-nymic is a kind of ultimate revolution: the return to something you don't remember, cannot feel, and know of only by way of myth. It would require a "leap of faith" as described by Soren Kierkegaard. For more info: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leap_of_faith#Kierkegaard.2C_Goethe.2C_Marx.2C_and_Tolstoy

[@Aramithius]

Michael Zeigler Oh wow... revolution as the ultimate expression of faith... that's beautiful. It also explains why Dagon acts the way he does in Oblivion - he knows Nirn isn't his, but is acting as though it is, a la the knight of faith. Although, as hinted at in the cast, it's only achieved through the means he currently knows; that is, destruction. He is 'making the movements of faith', without really knowing what the object is any more. I wish I had the time to read Fear & Trembling again now...

[@malusviovode6461]

+Michael Zeigler is this channel dead then? i miss the podcasts so much

[@michaelzeigler1129]

+malus viovode Definitely not dead - just a bit of a lull. We actually have some pretty awesome stuff in the works but schedules are making things difficult.

[@jmb1600]

Here is a thought I had during the Dagon talk: what if Dagon had the Razor created for the purpose of changing himself back to the Leper Demon King similarly to how Camoran changed his nymic. However, the Razor had unforeseen effects on Dagon to the point of him becoming Mehrunes Dagon, thus changing his longing for his past self of the Leper Demon King. So, there is that ongoing theme of change, but the nature of the Razor comes in with destruction. I would love to hear any thoughts to build off of that or change anything I just said.

[@vitriolicAmaranth]

the Jewish equivalent of hell, Gehenna, is analogous to the Christian idea of purgatory. Both are places where sinners are tortured, but this is not a punishment- It is called purgatory because it is a place where they are purged or purified of their sins through pain, so that they can eventually transcend purgatory and go to paradise. That's a way more obvious parallel to draw than the crucifixion.

[@freedan1014]

There is a key error that I noticed during the discussion, which was when it was stated that dragonborn is not a birth process as much as a state of being. This is incorrect so far as in-game lore is concerned, because during the journey through Sovngarde the Dragonborn confronts Tsun for entry who asks by what right he can enter. The characters response if he chooses his blood is: "By right of birth. I am Dragonborn." This is a clear statement; the character is both aware he is Dragonborn, and was born to this status and did not simply 'become' or change into one as speculated on the lorecast. I also am uncertain about Dagon wishing to remain as Dagon; the reason being his extreme attempts to destroy Tamriel. If he ever actually succeeded in invading Tamriel and wiping out the living beings there, and destroying the world, he would by default break Alduin's curse, and forcefully transform back into his original form, the Leaper Demon, so it seems like he really is attempting to return to his original form or state.

[@fuckthisfuckbullshit]

You know, the story goes that the buddha did starve himself and so on, but realized that self-harm was not the right path, in the same way that self-indulgence is not the right path. Rather it is better to take a "middle way" as they call it which is comfortable enough to maintain health and live but austere enough to be undistracting and unindulgent, which, the idea is, is the best lifestyle for the contemplative/meditative endeavors.

[@YungSteveBLG]

This series is the best thing on the internet.

[@pippinperformanceart]

Excellent~ knife enthusiast hunk. do sharmat next :)

[@Vivi-pm9tw]

Best podcast to date! Can't wait for the next episode. You guys should do the q&a at the end of the cast again!

[@god_pharaoh6111]

36:40 like a mite trapped in void it feels more freedom in death. like a human in a cage. once knew freedom but doesn't now. but will feel more with the door of death. that's why dagon had to go back. the scrolls can't allow breaking of the mortal coil even for immortals

[@irishcream9004]

I wish to learn more about Beothiah my lord and savior. She is the most interesting prince.

[@Gh0StF1sHy]

Talk about 'True Names' brought me right back to A Wizard of Earthsea.

[@Aramithius]

To supplement the chat about what's in the Mysterium Xarxes, there's a translation/transcription here: www.imperial-library.info/content/translating-mysterium-xarxes

[@Earthshadow4]

I'm a little late to this and have no idea if anyone else has pointed this out (if they have, then I apologize), but I'm pretty sure that according to the in-game book "The Refugees", Mankar Camoran was born to the Camoran Usurper and his bosmer mistress, which according to another in-game book "Notes on Racial Phylogeny" would have made him biologically a bosmer, at least originally. Unless Mankar was one of the exceptions where the offspring takes the race of the father. However, this would make the Usurper altmer, and I personally believe that to be unlikely as everyone has previously stated that the Camoran Dynasty was bosmeri. Obviously it's possible for, say, the Usurper's mother to have been altmeri, but as I said, I believe that to be unlikely for a good handful of reasons. I agree that the most probable scenario here is that he used the Razor to remake himself, even down to changing his race, though his motivations for making himself altmeri I think have a lot of potential for speculation.

[@god_pharaoh6111]

dagon achieved his purpose of fulfilling the elder scroll. only because he had no choice. it was fate, as fate of the elder scroll never changes

[@Sothas]

Ok, finally finished the new Lorecast. So it was brought up briefly that the commentaries might be talking about a new Walking Way. Could it not be so new? He discusses Lorkhan, ascension, and the way to Nu-Mantia. Is he in fact describing the Sixth Way?

[@borntopwnyou]

I have a question about Lig: How do you think Kirkbride has his coffee?

[@oliviarose222]

Can you guys do Mannimarco please??

[@Person1................68]

Please come back :(

[@kuroiraion3897]

In comparing Lorkhan's death to Jesus', I'm reminded of the Havamal, where Odin was hung on a tree to obtain the knowledge of Runes.

[@caytustheheir6259]

I really enjoyed all the episodes of this lorecast, any intentions to keep going/restart? Would totally watch, also any suggestions for channels like this one?

[@Putnam3145]

+Caytus The Heir There are plans.

[@caytustheheir6259]

Exciting Putnam

[@shaunhiggins658]

Whens the next episode?

[@jedkirk2748]

is anyone still playing eso? i dont have anyone to play with and id love to play with people who actually enjoy the lore

[@Pizzifrizzo]

I still have so many questions about Lyg!

[@REALROCKFM]

Lygma balls

[@DubayBay]

Mannimarco next please!

[@irishcream9004]

Corey in the house confirmed for TES 6

[@samiezzi6143]

Let's be honest. If the nerevarine was in th imperial city. He'd use alchemy to fortify strength by 20k and on shot both dagon and the avatar of akatosh

[@irishcream9004]

The only good thing from oblivion, no way Vivec would not of kicked his ass if it was not for Azuras fucking grudge against the Dunmer.

[@mojonation1487]

Add an Atlas of Smoke to your Lyg.

[@publican90]

So maybe Dagon has a birth right because he is Magnus

[@thomasmarcotte6002]

So dank. 10 Ehlnofex-shouting Mankars out of 10. On to the Lyg question: do we know anything about the inhabitants of Lyg, other than the dreugh kings in the oceans?

[@mojonation1487]

TJ M Here's a couple: Priesthood of HorThe mystics of Hor, formerly of Horma-Gile before it was destroyed by Mehrunes Dagon. They are the enemies of the K Signs, as the Priesthood is a rival hoarder of secrets, similar to the Psijic Order in that they are ultimately a force for Change. But mostly, they resemble Dunmeri culture in that they don’t desire change for change’s sake, but for an Endeavor towards something greater. Any similarities the Priesthood would share with Dunmeri culture ends there. The K Signs, especially Thermallélé, take offense at this as they are the antithesis to progress itself and hoard their own secrets and despise Progress. The Priesthood loosely worships the M Signs, but more commonly the Daedric Lords of Oblivion. Their orreys have 16 planets surrounding a Chrome orb. One planet is usually cracked as if partially destroyed, representing Mehrunes Dagon, the result of the Hope of Merid and its representation of Destruction. Templars of HahdMigrants from Tamriel Prime that are always looking to return to their fabled home, Nahd. They created quite the paradox when they left Tamriel, either by accident or intentionally, confusing the Elder Council as to whether or not they even existed in the first place outside of fairy tales. When they arrived in Lyg, they joined with the Priesthood of Hor until the Fall of Lyg. During the Fall, they splintered. Bleeding MonksThe remnants of the holy order of Maztiak. After the fall of Malbioge, the Monks repurposed their efforts in the magics of the M-Nulls. They are deeply devoted to the Y Signs and the Mnemoli. They are more aware of the technological boom of the previous eras and are more in tune with the esoteric relics of the past. They deeply revere the Scarab-Framer as the afflicted lamp, all but drowning in the depths of sensory deprivation. They also revere Threadwright, as the source of technology in Lyg’s past. Threadwright is often scorned in the Y-Sign pantheon in a quasi-Prometheus scenario. He gave the power of gods to mortals through technology, which ultimately proved both a boon and a curse.

[@superpulaski9767]

I feel like it would make sense for it to be Mehrunes Dagon to come take back Tamriel/Nirn because he's the leaper demon king/MAGNUS WHO WORKED WITH LORKHAN THE ORIGINAL KING OF THE REALM WHAAAAAAA

[@perfectloser55]

Well, there are times in life we have to move on... :-(

[@davidiceberg2744]

Dagoth Ur when?

[@TulkuGendun]

Why is the Zodiac Killer at the side?

[@dantevan6389]

what if the Last Dragonborn is a reincarnated version of lorkhan in a mortal form ? and all the main characters and Pelinal Whitestrake

[@vigilantalexius2134]

dante van What if I'm the Dragonborn, I jut don't know yet?

[@onlycorndog6322]

Is the Last Dragonborn a Shazzarine? Interesting idea. Possible, I suppose. I think Tiber Septim was a Shazzarine and he was dragonborn as well, so it may not be without precedent.

[@perfectloser55]

Are you planning to talk about the hist someday? Hist! Hist! Hist! By the way, have you already talked about the hist?

[@weeman22scot]

Do Malacath!

[@shrekas2966]

the aedra and daedra are all bad and good. my idea is that lorkhan wanted to make a plan to eliminate those baings by tricking them to create nirn. the aedra realised that they will die during the proces and fled. because of that nirn is made out of aedras power and aedra can be killed. daedra cant be killed on nirn but they can be killed in oblivion. oblivion is basicaly space. even if aedra are stronger than daedra they still have been linked to nirn. lorkhan remained very powerful and that means he didnt use alot of his power to make nirn. maybe this was daedra plan to make nirn out of other beings so they can be worshiped as gods and could play with mortals like toys. since aedra figured out daedra plan and fled so mortals now worship them as gods.